/in-Vitational Game 4 (Game Over!)

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Your cases, short version:

Ekim jumped on the two major bandwagons (5th and 6th vote), without a case and without commenting on anything else in the game.

Yos sat back, threatened to join the Xyl wagon when it was big (without discussing it much), then pushed and joined the biggest bandwagon (B&B) while commenting almost nothing else about the game - also Yos scum meta.

Thesp does not seem interested in anything about the game other than the BnB wagon, and yet has not improved his case on BnB from his original suspicion 200 posts ago.

[Elvis then talks about how all these people are neutral]

Claus - what do you think of iamausername, herodotus, and zu faul?

I read this as E_k trying to get Claus away from voting for her scumbuddies and to focus on three other people, this makes me continue to suspect E_k and adds suspicion to Thesp.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

after hitting the "preview" button instead of "submit" button 5 times in a row, I could tell I was really tired and needed to go to sleep. So I'm going to try to wrap up my thoughts, and hope I'm alive to post tomorrow.

[Xylthixlm]

@Xyl

Thanks for the comments. So, wanna form an Ekim wagon?

vote: ekiM

sure

Yos2 is scummy but I recoil at the thought of lynching Yos2 on day 1.

Why?

Good reason: Because he's very useful to the town if he isn't scum, so I'd rather leave him alive and get his input.
Bad reason: Because I don't get to play with Yos2 enough and it would suck if when I finally do he gets lynched day 1.

The last two games I played with Yos, I was town both times, he was scum in one and town in the other, and I was right about him in both instances. So, I trust my gut on him, and so far, I'm not getting a scum feel.

Noting this for future reference.

Well I'm adverse to BaB dying right now. I'm not sure about him, I haven't got proper reads on half the players yet and there are several people coming out of V/LAs right about now.
Thesp, when do you plan to enclose your reasons for heartily endorsing the BaB wagon (now and originally)? After he's been lynched? Frankly I'm not quite understanding why this is a beneficial strategy.

So obv town. Like ridiculously towny.

Whatever you're seeing there, I'm not seeing it.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Haven't read the last few hours post explosion but at a glance it's really weird to see all the posts look like "Blah blah blah Xyl blah blah blah Xyl blah. Blah blah blah blah Xyl blah blah."

This irrelevant observation brought to you by the zwetschenwasser school of mafia play.

TL;DR.

B&B voted me because I think you're not his scumbuddy

, which, again, probably means he's scum and you're town. He also generally continued to act like a scum trapped in a corner while not actually responding to any of the points made against him.

Yos, you JUST QUOTED MY POST HERE:

I'm voting you because your meta is off, your posts have a sort of unaffected tone that I've encountered when reading your scum games as opposed to the active scumhunter fearsome Yos I've seen.

Also, I think your attack of me is basically opportunistic

and if there wasn't a wagon on me you wouldn't be voting me.

My vote for you is because you're scum. I explained why I believe you're scum. You have completly failed to refute that. Plus you claimed vanillia, which automatically makes you a good lynch anyway.

Also, I thought you said you were voting for me because I said that if you were scum xyl was town?

If you just quoted my post, which stated my reasons for voting you, and then say that I'm voting you "because I think you're not his scumbuddy," I have no choice but to believe you are purposely

lying

and not simply missing my posts.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

He also generally continued to act like a scum trapped in a corner while

not actually responding to any of the points made against him.

I don't understand the merit in any of the points against me. This is the case I see on me:

1) I did wierd behavior from switching to vote E_k
-Okay well that's not scummy, that's WIERD

2)I attacked bad logic of using my and xyl's attacking each other to clear us as scumpartners
-if attacking bad logic is considered scummy for this town, then we will lose.


Why don't you explain the points again me, since you're voting for me. Maybe then I can respond to the points better?

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Top means most certain, blank spaces indicate tiers of my certainty. For example: most certain Yos is scum, least certain Kmd is (because I don't know if there's a traitor or not).

Scum list so far

:
Yosarian2
Ekim

Thesp

Elvis

Kmd

Town list so far

:
Ojanen


Herodutus


-----------

unvote
vote: Ekim

[Shabba]

Hey everybody, a week full of 12 hour days and some bad news today are making it difficult on me right now. I'm sorry for my lack of posts...I am trying to keep up as much as I can.

To BAB: I did give my reasoning for my vote. It was earlyish on in the Day when I voted, making the comment I felt there was a very good chance that you were scum who had been drawing a lot of attention from good Townies and bussing scum, and so I voted you. Everyone seemed to be popping up and saying something about you, or at least that was my perception as I read through to catch up.
...
Yos2 is a good backup vote for me, and I don't like Herodotus calling for votes on Thesp.

Voting someone because "their name is popping up a lot" seems scummy to me. I guess the part that bothered me was the "Everyone seemed to be popping up and saying something about you"...it's the wording...You do realize that by stating it this way, you implied that it didn't matter much

what

they were saying about BaB?

Can you elaborate on why you don't like Herodotus calling for votes on Thesp? or...are you trying to defend your scum buddy?

The Triad of Evil
Or why Thesp, Ekim and Yos are bad kids and will get coal for Xmas.

tl;dr version first:

Ekim jumped on the two major bandwagons (5th and 6th vote), without a case and without commenting on anything else in the game.

Yos sat back, threatened to join the Xyl wagon when it was big (without discussing it much), then pushed and joined the biggest bandwagon (B&B) while commenting almost nothing else about the game - also Yos scum meta.

Thesp does not seem interested in anything about the game other than the BnB wagon, and yet has not improved his case on BnB from his original suspicion 200 posts ago.

@Claus

Regarding Ekim: I agree with you. In 182, Ekim pointed the finger at 5 ppl, then voted someone else. I think that's scummy. If it isn't, maybe he can explain why now that he's back from V/LA.

RE:Yos: I'm not getting a strong read on him, either way...I mean, at the beginning of the game, I just voted him because he voted me. Since then, he has had some good posts. (like 240)..but, again, i'm not sure of him, yet.

RE: Thesp: I guess I felt scummy vibes from him because of the hard push for a quick lynch of BaB (even with my own suspicions of BaB). After I posted, voicing my concerns about mislynching on day one, Thesp said to me:

Don't be afraid to be wrong. Heck, I've even been wrong once or twice before. (Read that as: many, many times.) At some point, you have to give it your best guess, and find out if you're right or wrong. Don't give in to analysis paralysis! (AP will be the topic of my next essay on mafia play.)

I still <3 the BridgesAndBaloons wagon and support getting a claim from her before we string her up.

He knows what a newbie I am, and I guess when he started trying to persuade me to lose my fear of "being wrong" (i.e. lynching town), I started to look at him in a scummy light. (Thesp, if you were just being nice to me, i'm sorry! )

FoS: inHimshallibe, Thesp

[Herodotus]

@BaB: what is the current vote count on Ekim?

[Herodotus]

I'm agreeing with Yos2's point against BaB (specifically the one related to Xyl.)

[Herodotus]

@BaB: what is the current vote count on Ekim?

n/m. I thought it was a lot higher than it was, and that BaB was voting without considering where the wagon was at.

[Thesp]

A vanilla claim from a scummy person should cement their lynch, honestly. I mean, if you're not lynching a vanilla, who would you go through with the lynch on? Keep the claimed vanilla, kill the claimed doc? Because we think scum would fake a power role?

...

Also, tell me what kind of claim you would go through on the lynch of. BEcause if you won't lynch a vanilla claim, who are you going to lynch?

I'd failed to note this earlier - this is good.

Hey... Nobody DARE hammer before I get to post...

B&B is at L-2 if I'm not mistaken.

Why? (This bothers me.)

Thesp, when do you plan to enclose your reasons for heartily endorsing the BaB wagon (now and originally)?

3 - Sure. I think elvis_knits's suspicion of Kmd3490 is genuine. The manner in which BridgesAndBaloons approached elvis_knits suggests to me that he's trying to exploit the suspicion on the number of people.

Also, I think Herodotus outed himself as B&B's partner.

Wait, how is he outing himself?

See:

As far as Shabba is concerned, there are multiple players who are lurking a lot harder. Does anyone even remember that there are players in this game with the usernames "SerialClergyman" and "iamausername"?

vote: iamausername

While you are correct about this, your deflection of the BridgesAndBaloons wagon is noted.

I think elvis_knits's suspicion of Kmd3490 is genuine. The manner in which BridgesAndBaloons approached elvis_knits suggests to me that he's trying to exploit the suspicion on the number of people.

This is awful. If he just wanted to exploit suspicion, he probably would have voted KMD (unless KMD is his buddy.) No one had stated any suspicions of Elvis over the number of scum issue before BaB's vote, and only one person was voting for her. Your idea is that he left the wagon that was at 6 in order to exploit suspicions that had not yet been stated on someone who was at 1?

Absolutely. Why live with just one wagon? Seriously? I think he took elvis_knits's suspicion of Kmd3490 (which was based on the supposed "slip"), thought he'd be able to exploit it, and attacked her for it when her suspicion is perfectly reasonable (though I think she's wrong about it). His manouver appeared to me to be more like pressing an advantage rather than trying to find scum.

Thesp appears that he may bussing, and this is the strongest point for BaB-scum as opposed to BaB-townie-who-is-reacting-poorly. But I think he's a better lynch.

what

There is too much support for a BaB lynch for me to believe there aren't/weren't multiple scum on his wagon. Not that this makes him town, but I'm more interested in the wagon.

This is a really confusing statement. What sort of interest do you have in the wagon? Do you think BnB is a good lynch or not? If not, why are you not actively trying to persuade the town elsewhere?

What I meant was:
I'm not sure whether BaB is town or scum.
I'm pretty sure that among the people voting him now or having unvoted him recently, there are more than one scum. I feel it best to scumhunt from among the voters.

So out of ~11 people, at least two are scum? This doesn't seem like much of a bold prediction,

especially

when you feel like bussing is likely here.

What was the reason you didn't want to tell why you voted for him at that time?

I rarely think that explaining my initial vote (especially right away) is productive. I'm always interested to see who agrees with me and why, especially when they don't necessarily get to use my reasons for voting (unless they happen to agree with me). I think this information is ultimately useful.

3 - Sure. I think elvis_knits's suspicion of Kmd3490 is genuine. The manner in which BridgesAndBaloons approached elvis_knits suggests to me that he's trying to exploit the suspicion on the number of people.

This is awful. If he just wanted to exploit suspicion, he probably would have voted KMD (unless KMD is his buddy.) No one had stated any suspicions of Elvis over the number of scum issue before BaB's vote, and only one person was voting for her. Your idea is that he left the wagon that was at 6 in order to exploit suspicions that had not yet been stated on someone who was at 1?

I'm not exactly sure, because I find Thesp's comment a little confusing, but I think that Thesp means that "BaB was trying to exploit MY (elvis's) suspicion on the number of people (the slip, the 4 scum + 1 traitor thing)." Which means Thesp thinks BaB saw my suspicion and thought he could use it to make me look scummy. At least that is how I took it. It is not dependent on other people having expressed suspicion on me. We should probably get Thesp to clarify.

This is correct.

As scum, have you ever claimed vanilla?

Yes.

Why is Hero avoiding the bab wagon and voting Thesp using babscum as an excuse?

This is a good question. Looks like it was answered here:

It's the other way around. BaBscum is a consequence of Thespscum. But I am now thinking this connection may be weaker than I thought.

What specifically makes it look like one scum interacting with another scum to you?

Looks like you answered it, though I think the manner in which you arrived to "it looks like Thesp is bussing" is weird to me, to say the least.

@Ekim

The reasons for finding Ekim scummy are pretty straightforward. Ikem has lurked during most of the game, and still, managed to hop on the two biggest wagons: Xyl, on post 82 (5th vote), and BaB, on post 142 (6th vote).

On his Xyl vote, he also waved his hand at 5 players, calling them lurking scum. Which he cleared as a joke. On his BaB vote (his next vote after the Xyl vote), he makes a bunch of light questions to players, and doesn't follow up in any of those questions (although he does go V/LA 24 hours later).

Hopping on big bandwagons without contributing to the game is a pretty textbook scumtell, and the fact that very few people are pushing Ekim for it is another signal of scummyness: If he was town, I can see scum making a case on him early and go for a "righteous myslinch".

I fully support the Ekim pressure, for this and other reasons.

A bunch of small nothings, then his post (2 days later) he finally explains his accusation on BnB, saying that he suspects him for trying to "exploit E_K's suspicion of the number of scum". At that time, I found it funny because I (and others) also attacked E_K for her "slip" attack on KMD, and still Thesp did not list us as scum, or comment, or anything like that.

The manner in which BridgesAndBaloons approached it felt different from the manner you and others did. I didn't like the elvis_knits wagon either way.

Also, Thesp dodges my other questions ("what do you think of Yos? and "what were your questions useful for?")

Sorry I missed those. I jested about Yosarian2 earlier because I didn't have much of a line of thinking on him at all. I still don't - I find him largely uninteresting. My answer re: my initial questions:

2 - Any indicators were only very mild if at all useful. I found several answers humorous, though.

...is fairly straightforward, I'm not sure how else I can answer it without being distracting.

Still, there is one big problem with this: 200 posts later, pushing the wagon every big post he makes, I would expect a town player to have more reasons to lynch his main suspect.

The biggest thing for me since is that I haven't seen anything from BridgesAndBaloons to dissuade me that my suspicion was not well founded. (Also, see Herodotus.) I'm a big believer of the line of thinking that scum players do not ooze scumminess with every post they make, nor are scum flamingly more obvious every time they post. I'm more minimalist like that.

I'm not wild about the Kmd3490-as-scum line of thinking.

He is on the vote-elvis-to-defend-kmd train. Also he keeps raining on the parade of every other wagon, while simultaneously not explaining why none of my explanations or further actions cause him to reevaluate me at all.

He should be considered.

How do you think this fits/doesn't fit/other with his already stated approach of slowing bandwagons down?

(a) He hasn't seemed interested in BaB posting his suspicions. Granted, BaB has been stalling, but no one else would have known he would.

This is correct.

After I posted, voicing my concerns about mislynching on day one, Thesp said to me:

Don't be afraid to be wrong. Heck, I've even been wrong once or twice before. (Read that as: many, many times.) At some point, you have to give it your best guess, and find out if you're right or wrong. Don't give in to analysis paralysis! (AP will be the topic of my next essay on mafia play.)

I still <3 the BridgesAndBaloons wagon and support getting a claim from her before we string her up.

He knows what a newbie I am, and I guess when he started trying to persuade me to lose my fear of "being wrong" (i.e. lynching town), I started to look at him in a scummy light. (Thesp, if you were just being nice to me, i'm sorry! )

FoS: inHimshallibe, Thesp

Being afraid to be wrong (and being afraid to place a vote and/or lynch someone) can paralyze a town if they don't just take a stab and hope that they're right at some point. When will you place a vote? Three days before the deadline? At some point, you need to move. Don't let analysis paralysis win. What's kept you from voting with your last post?

FOS: alexhans.

Needs more BridgesAndBaloons lynch.

[elvis_knits]

Your cases, short version:

Ekim jumped on the two major bandwagons (5th and 6th vote), without a case and without commenting on anything else in the game.

Yos sat back, threatened to join the Xyl wagon when it was big (without discussing it much), then pushed and joined the biggest bandwagon (B&B) while commenting almost nothing else about the game - also Yos scum meta.

Thesp does not seem interested in anything about the game other than the BnB wagon, and yet has not improved his case on BnB from his original suspicion 200 posts ago.

[Elvis then talks about how all these people are neutral]

Claus - what do you think of iamausername, herodotus, and zu faul?

I read this as E_k trying to get Claus away from voting for her scumbuddies and to focus on three other people, this makes me continue to suspect E_k and adds suspicion to Thesp.

But Claus asked me what I thought of those people first, distracting me from my suspicions... so why don't you think Claus is scum for "trying to get EK away from voting his scum buddies and focus on three other people"???

Claus did exactly the same thing that I did... asking me about what I thought of other people. We did the same thing, and you have decided that I was the only person doing something scummy. And why it would be scummy to ask players to give opinions on others is beyond me... that is not scummy! We need info! We need everyone to comment!

Also, this is evidence of the kind of backwards thinking I described earlier. You see me not too suspicious of Thesp and say we must be scum buddies. You see someone drive a wagon on another player and say they must be bussing. This kind of thinking will lose the game for town. You are setting up situations where:

1)Players who agree or trust each other must be scum buddies.
2)A player who attacks another and lynches scum must be bussing.

That makes it impossible to agree with other townies without being accused of being scum buddies, and impossible to lynch scum without being accused of bussing. This is the opposite of what we should be doing! (I'm not saying bussing doesn't exist, but it should not be assumed in every situation, nor should players who are not suspicious of each other be assumed scum buddies when there is no other reason to think so).

[zu_Faul]

I'd love to hear more from iamusername, serialclergyman and especially ekiM before deadline.

What in particular do you want me to say?

Anything game-related will do.

zufaul - seems to stop progress for no reason (slowing attacks on bridges, shabba, discouraging herodotus's lurker hunt, reprimanding xyl for too much vote hopping... these all impede the progress of a game. Pressuring people gives us better reads, so what zu is doing is bad).

This is my usual scum-hunting tactic. It works pretty well.
(/in before people accusing me of hypocrisy. It is much different from halting the game like BAB wants to, as what he is doing does not provide us with any more information, while slowing the impetus (on people who are not scummy) is doing so.)

Can you explain your approach more and how it helps you tell allignments? Because I don't understand how it's scum hunting to stop wagons on people who you've said yourself are not entirely townie. How do you get info this way?

I am not stopping the wagons.

Slowing down something allows you to look at it more closely. I think it is quite simple.

Also, you don't mind the hordes of people saying that you are probably town; it's only fair if others get this service as well.


Good thinking in the last post though. If you are going to answer Thesp's question about me in a satisfactory manner, I'll unvote you. After all, you have not done any news scummy things, since the KMD-slip action. There is a higher density in other player's scummy-posts-to-post ratio (obviously, this is not the only thing which determines my vote - for example, my vote right now stays because I first want the question answered). It stayed on you for so long, because no one else really stood out to me as more scummy.

I'm not sure whether BaB is town or scum.
I'm pretty sure that among the people voting him now or having unvoted him recently, there are more than one scum. I feel it best to scumhunt from among the voters.

This would only be relevant if the (expected) density of scum on that bandwagon would be higher than in the town as a whole. When you doubt even that, like you do, it makes no sense to limit your scope in this way.


@Ojanen: You did not answer my question from the previous post.

Also, I am curious, as a general question to people:

As scum, have you ever claimed vanilla?

Yes.

BTW, @Zu_faul and @Herotodus: Agree/Disagree on each of my three cases? Would you vote any of them?

I've already stated I am suspicious of ekiM. If he does not return with some pro-townish posts, I'll vote him (note: this has nothing to do with the point in time when he returns, but with the content of hi posts when he returns).
Most people are attacking Yos2 for meta reasons. I don't think I ever played a game with him, at least not in recent times. Scumchat Yos is a bit different, but you can't really compae I guess. In general, I find his behaviour (atl east in the beginning, sitting back and watch) more annoying than scummy.
I don't see Thesp as scummy. His behaviour is consistent. He always plays this agressive.


Attacking B&B for the Xyl-&-him-are-not-scumpartners-thing is still stupid.

[ekiM]

Got 13 pages to catch up. Addressing suspicions on me first.

My posts:

ekiM, who's one of your scumbuddies?

I don't have any.

You don't like random voting, Thesp?

vote: Elvis_Knits

Answer to question, random vote.

I am deeply concerned by the continued absence of inHimshallibe, Kmd4390, Ojanen, populartajo, and Shabba. I'd wager there's at least one scum amongst those five players.

unvote; Vote Xyltylxym

.

Wanted vote for Xyl because:

• He was actively non-participartory. At that point he had made six posts, none of which contained anything good.
  He ignored Charter's questions.
  
  
• I wanted to move out of the RVS.

Didn't give reason for vote because I wanted to see if his reaction would be equally nonchalant. Read game back, had no further comments. Did non-poster check out of interest, decided I might as well post it. "Deeply concerned" and "I'd wager" are facetiousness. Don't see how they could be read otherwise. (Note: ANy group of five players probably has at least one scum in it.)

Um, the "1 in 5 players in a 20 player game is probably scum" thing was a joke. The relevant part of that post was the vote. Serious reaching going on here.

Elvis saying scum wouldn't start RVS bandwagons on one another is a bit silly. Describing it as "pushing for their buddies lynch" is sillier.

Kmd, why'd you name me as a buddy to Elvis then not mention me ever again?

VP Baltar, why'd you wait for Xyl to vote me before voting me? You'd already seen the post that offended you so.

Claus, what are you smoking? RVS bandwagon vote with joke attached = problematic?

Xyl seems to be not contributing whatsoever but posting frequently and people seem happy to let him. Is it a town tell then?

unvote; vote: BridgesandBalloons

Strange behavior.

Clarifications, questions, and a vote.

I voted for B&B because:

• "After reading the first post, I thought there were 4 mafia + (optional) traitor too. The fact that E_k didn't come to the same conclusion as me is weird." --> Would be a BIG misreading. Nonsense to say that reading correctly is weird/suspicious. Reaching?
  
• Not voting Elvis, his big suspect, in 100. Didn't see townie motivation.
  
• Voting in 102 after KMD prodding. Felt unnatural.

Hmm, that's stronger than I remembered. Still not very likely to lead to a lynch though, right?

Response to Elvis's clarification.

... and that's it. Ask any further questions.

---

Responses to questions/comments aimed at me (excuse repetition):

I dont remember you joking very much in our games together. Do you usually joke with accusations?

If there's nothing I want to actually comment on, sure.

Um, the "1 in 5 players in a 20 player game is probably scum" thing was a joke.

I'm a bit slow, explain what was funny about it.

It's an ironic expression of my frustration at the lack of material to work with at that point in the game. There were comic undertones, but it was not very humorous. Perhaps it'd have been better to describe it as "non-serious" or "not in earnest", rather than as "a joke". I doubt it made anyone laugh.

VP Baltar, why'd you wait for Xyl to vote me before voting me? You'd already seen the post that offended you so.

I had done a reread before the post where I voted you. It stuck out to me on that reread.

Did you think I intended it to be taken in earnest?

ekiM-Here are his posts. 1, confirm. 2, some shit about tree stumps. 3, says he doesn't have any scumbuddies and random votes. 4, lurker callout. Wagers that there is a scum on the list. Wagons Xyl, who is not on the list. So basically, I don't like that he hadn't added anything when he called out lurkers or that he gave a list that he thought included scum and voted off the list without giving a better reason.

See above for my reasons.

I assumed Kmd was being a sarcastic prick. Which is weird because I'm usually quite skeptical of 'jokes' (see: ekiM). Hmm.

Do you think I intended my comment on the lurkers to be taken in earnest?

Saying that "at least one of these five players is scum" isn't very meaningful, though of course the odds suggest he's probably right. (For comparison, I think that with 4 scum among 20, a random selection of just three people has a 51% chance of containing scum.) Other than that, I haven't paid much attention to him until now.

After review in ISO:

His calling others out for lurking in 3 was premature, especially given that he wasn't megaposting himself.

"Strange behavior" is a poor reason for placing a vote. (Temporarily) unexplained votes are occasionally okay, but when you give a reason, you should be able to say why you think it is an indicator of scumminess. So, ekim, was BaB's strangeness scum-motivated or a scum-tell?

See above.

players who make a scummy thing and then disapp; ared completely should rather be persecuted. ekiM for example

No, I was V/LA. Any actual questions, ask them.

ekiM - some attention on him led to recent lurking

No, I was V/LA.

hen I left EkIm w/o a * or crossed out because he is VLA recently, but he is sort of a lurker

No, I am not.

Vote: Yos - I would also be happy voting Thesp or Ekim

Do you think I intended my comment on the lurkers to be taken in earnest? Please enumerate why you would vote for me.

@zu Faul, ekiM, alexhans:

Do you think the paragraph under the last quote in roflcopter 298 is a valid scumtell?

Do you mean "stop. this isn't about arguing theory, this is about the motivation you had to argue the theory in the first place."? What would it mean for this to "be a valid scumtell"? Can you rephrase your question?

Ekim:

Oh, I meant to take him off the lurker list. . . Well, I shouldn't have meant to do that, becuase after I looked at him, he's lurker scum.

In post 82 he silently jumps on the biggest bandwagon (Xyl and fifth vote)

In post 142 he hops off of Xyl after I become the biggest wagon

I think he is lurkerscum.

I was only active for the early part of the game, and I was not lurking.

PS: While I am against waiting on a lynch just because we can, I'd love to hear more from iamusername, serialclergyman and especially ekiM before deadline.

Are we anywhere near deadline? I think it's only been about a week since the game started... Anyway, you will hear more from me. I was V/LA.

Ekim jumped on the two major bandwagons (5th and 6th vote), without a case and without commenting on anything else in the game.

You elide the timeframe. For the Xyl vote most people's contribution to the game was posting things like "I hate cats".

It is untrue that I commented on nothing else in the game. The post were I voted B&B contains at least five comments on the game. They may not be brilliantly insightful, but they are there. If you mean to say my comments weren't especially deep, say that. Don't lie and say I commented on nothing else.

You assume I voted without reason when, if I recall correctly, you earlier said you have no problem with people temporarily withholding their vote reasons. Why the change of heart in this case?

The reasons for finding Ekim scummy are pretty straightforward. Ikem has lurked during most of the game, and still, managed to hop on the two biggest wagons: Xyl, on post 82 (5th vote), and BaB, on post 142 (6th vote).

No, I have been V/LA for most of the game. For the period where I was around, I was at least as active as the median player. I have not lurked.

On his Xyl vote, he also waved his hand at 5 players, calling them lurking scum. Which he cleared as a joke. On his BaB vote (his next vote after the Xyl vote), he makes a bunch of light questions to players, and doesn't follow up in any of those questions (although he does go V/LA 24 hours later).

I didn't follow up because I was V/LA. Yes, you're right. Does this have a point?

Hopping on big bandwagons without contributing to the game is a pretty textbook scumtell, and the fact that very few people are pushing Ekim for it is another signal of scummyness: If he was town, I can see scum making a case on him early and go for a "righteous myslinch".

A bunch of people have pushed on me, including yourself. Are you arguing that you, Xyl, and VP Baltar are scum going for a righteous mislynch?

Tajo, Claus, Xyl, VP, Herodotus, Zu_Faul, KMD, B&B have all expressed serious suspicion of me. That's 8/19 other players, almost half. How many players should be pushing me, exactly?

:badposting:

It is in your meta. Your scum meta. Specially when you don't really take your lurker vote seriously, and avoid discussing the game like you were doing earlier today. E.g. I think Town-Yos would be all over Ekim by now.

The case on me is crap, though.

Also, it mostly amounts to "ekiM is lurking", even though that's untrue. So you're saying that Yos should not be voting for a lurker, he should be pursuing someone else some people think is a lurker but actually isn't. What?

Ekim - I was mildly suspicious of him because he seemed to disappear once people voted him. I didn't think their reasons were that strong, but the fact that he sort of disappeared made me raise my eyebrows a bit. Now it looks like he was VLA, so I can't blame him for that. It is all basically null to me, but if you or other people see something you don't like, I think it is absolutely worth it to question him, especially since I don't have a read one way or the other.

Fair dos.

So you don't mind that Ekim jumped without reasons/pushing on the Xyl and BB wagon?

Question, who said this: "I love it when people play with their cards open in the table. Of course, giving reasons would be even better, but I settle for knowing who each player suspects, whatever the reason."?

oh yeah, I forgot when I looked at the lurkers, I found Ekim was scum

I'm not a lurker.

The fact that he hopped on both of the biggest wagons with virtually no explanation is not pro-town.

Why not?

Regarding Ekim: I agree with you. In 182, Ekim pointed the finger at 5 ppl, then voted someone else. I think that's scummy. If it isn't, maybe he can explain why now that he's back from V/LA.

See above.

I fully support the Ekim pressure, for this and other reasons.

You think Claus's "not enough people are pushing ekiM" line of thought is valid? Could you explain it to me?

Which other reasons?

I've already stated I am suspicious of ekiM. If he does not return with some pro-townish posts, I'll vote him (note: this has nothing to do with the point in time when he returns, but with the content of hi posts when he returns).

Well, I've wrapped up my responses, which has taken far too long. I'm going to sunbathe and read Snow Crash. I'll be back to comment on the rest of the game later.

[Thesp]

zufaul - seems to stop progress for no reason (slowing attacks on bridges, shabba, discouraging herodotus's lurker hunt, reprimanding xyl for too much vote hopping... these all impede the progress of a game. Pressuring people gives us better reads, so what zu is doing is bad).

This is my usual scum-hunting tactic. It works pretty well.
(/in before people accusing me of hypocrisy. It is much different from halting the game like BAB wants to, as what he is doing does not provide us with any more information, while slowing the impetus (on people who are not scummy) is doing so.)

Can you explain your approach more and how it helps you tell allignments? Because I don't understand how it's scum hunting to stop wagons on people who you've said yourself are not entirely townie. How do you get info this way?

I am not stopping the wagons.

Slowing down something allows you to look at it more closely. I think it is quite simple.

There is a practical limit to this which has a point of diminishing returns for this, which is rapidly accelerated in larger games.

[zu_Faul]

players who make a scummy thing and then disapp; ared completely should rather be persecuted. ekiM for example

No, I was V/LA. Any actual questions, ask them.

We are playing Mafia, not 20 Questions.

PS: While I am against waiting on a lynch just because we can, I'd love to hear more from iamusername, serialclergyman and especially ekiM before deadline.

Are we anywhere near deadline? I think it's only been about a week since the game started... Anyway, you will hear more from me. I was V/LA.

Sorry, I meant lynch when I wrote deadline.

[zu_Faul]

Slowing down something allows you to look at it more closely. I think it is quite simple.

There is a practical limit to this which has a point of diminishing returns for this, which is rapidly accelerated in larger games.

Like everything, it is only good in moderation. You think I overdid it already?
I am not sure that this goes quicker in large games than in smaller ones. I have to think about this. But this point is theory and irrelevant in this game, I think.

[Yosarian2]

If you just quoted my post, which stated my reasons for voting you, and then say that I'm voting you "because I think you're not his scumbuddy," I have no choice but to believe you are purposely

lying

and not simply missing my posts.

B&B, this was the reason you gave while you were voting me.

, B&B is probably scum and, if he is, Xyl is 100% guarenteed to be town;

According to Yos, there's no such thing as bussing. Either he's forgotten all his games of mafia, or he's scum.

I'm pretty confident Yos is scum.

vote:yos

So, yes, you were originally voting me because I said that Xyl is town if you're scum.

Afterwords, once I had demonstrated that your wrong and that there was nothing scummy about that, you completely changed your reason; you changed it into basically a bad imitation of Claus' case against me. Basically, it looks like you really want to vote me because I'm voting you, and you'll come up with whatever reason you can to do so, and change your reason when the first one is disproven. What's worse, you seem to refuse to even admit that's what you're doing.

The fact that you're trying to claim "I'm lying" about your reason, when IT WAS THE REASON YOU GAVE WHEN YOU VOTED ME JUST YESTERDAY, has completely convinced me you're cornered scum. You've now gotten to the point where you're actually lying about your own posts in a desperate attempt to make your attackers look bad.

[Herodotus]

(a) He hasn't seemed interested in BaB posting his suspicions. Granted, BaB has been stalling, but no one else would have known he would.

This is correct.

Okay, now why? I can see a couple scummy motives, but only one possible pro-town motive is coming to mind -- that being that the lynch on BaB-scum could lose steam. This seems improbable, given the high number of players who want to lynch him.

I'm not sure whether BaB is town or scum.
I'm pretty sure that among the people voting him now or having unvoted him recently, there are more than one scum. I feel it best to scumhunt from among the voters.

This would only be relevant if the (expected) density of scum on that bandwagon would be higher than in the town as a whole.

When you doubt even that, like you do, it makes no sense to limit your scope in this way.

Or when you think extra information may be available regarding those people, i.e. bandwagon votes.

Megapost 463 is mega. Will read it later.

[Xylthixlm]

I assumed Kmd was being a sarcastic prick. Which is weird because I'm usually quite skeptical of 'jokes' (see: ekiM). Hmm.

Do you think I intended my comment on the lurkers to be taken in earnest?

Yes.

[elvis_knits]

He is on the vote-elvis-to-defend-kmd train. Also he keeps raining on the parade of every other wagon, while simultaneously not explaining why none of my explanations or further actions cause him to reevaluate me at all.

He should be considered.

How do you think this fits/doesn't fit/other with his already stated approach of slowing bandwagons down?

I think zu parking his vote on me is consistent with his other play because none of it is helpful to the town. If zu thinks I am scum he should absolutely still vote for me, but I would expect him to argue with things I have said, and show why I am scummy. He hasn't done that. He just keeps his vote on me and says nothing about me, while slowing progress in other areas. Not helpful.

Comments like this are similarly not helpful:

I am not sold on BAB's townieness, but I don't think she deserves the spotlight she is currently getting.

Why not?

Because there are players who are actually doing scummy things.

^^ And NO mention of who these people are and the scummy things they're doing. How is that helpful to the town? You're raining on the BaB wagon, but you're not sold he's town. You're doing it because "there are other people who are scummier" but you don't say who they are or what they're doing and you don't vote them yourself? That is pure shenanigans.

Furthermore, I don't see "slowing bandwagons down" as a pro-town strategy. Perhaps I am missing something, but this is how I think:

Unless you have a STRONG pro-town read on a player, you should not slow down a wagon on them. Reasons include: 1)Wagonee might be scum, you just haven't seen it yet; 2)Wagonee might be town and letting the wagon go on them might make this clearer and also might make wagoners give themselves away as scum.

I want to be able to judge the wagoner by their response, and also, for the town to feel able to vote freely. That way scum feel able to vote freely, and it will be easier to catch them through reasoning or timing that feels "off."

I do not understand why zu would stop a wagon on someone who he doesn't feel confident in their allignment. A wagon can only help make allignment clearer.

OR, if you absolutely have to stop a bandwagon on another player, you should atleast provide other avenues of discussion, which zu hasn't been doing. Although I guess in his last post he expressed some mild suspicion on iamausername and ekiM. Although it was more a plea for more participation than any kind of attack.

[roflcopter]

i'm confused. why isn't bridges dead yet?

[elvis_knits]

i'm confused. why isn't bridges dead yet?

I agree. He gave a scum list. That's what people wanted. It was nonsensical as expected.

Now we need:

=====[]

[roflcopter]

i am against running ekim or anyone else up to claim range while we have our first scum sitting on a silver platter.

[Thesp]

Slowing down something allows you to look at it more closely. I think it is quite simple.

There is a practical limit to this which has a point of diminishing returns for this, which is rapidly accelerated in larger games.

Like everything, it is only good in moderation. You think I overdid it already?

I think it's far less "necessary" in a large game than a small one (if it's necessary at all), and it is likely (and so far appears to me to be)counterproductive today.

(a) He hasn't seemed interested in BaB posting his suspicions. Granted, BaB has been stalling, but no one else would have known he would.

This is correct.

Okay, now why? I can see a couple scummy motives, but only one possible pro-town motive is coming to mind -- that being that the lynch on BaB-scum could lose steam. This seems improbable, given the high number of players who want to lynch him.

Can you give me a compelling reason why I'd care what his suspicions are when I think he's likely enough to be scum so as to want him lynched?

i'm confused. why isn't bridges dead yet?

I agree. He gave a scum list. That's what people wanted. It was nonsensical as expected.

Now we need:

=====[]

This is a good post in every way.