/in-Vitational Game 4 (Game Over!)

[elvis_knits]

TL;DR for page 26: ekiM throws a fit because elvis wanted to know who he was suspicious of.

[ekiM]

Yes, some of my reads are vague. There are 15 players and I haven't fully grokked the gestalt.

No, I'd prefer not to use that format. The scum reads are the important bit, for townies.

[ekiM]

TL;DR for page 26: ekiM throws a fit because elvis wanted to know who he was suspicious of.

You know, if you had not asked for my suspicions, I probably never would have posted them. So you have done a great thing for the town here.

[VP Baltar]

VP especially left his vote on me for all of Day 1 while I was conveniently V/LA, meaning he didn't have to commit himself to much else. Read him in iso and he really doesn't commit to much at all textually.

In VP's arguments with iamausername, VP comes out looking bad to me. Read them.

Wow this is a pretty stellar case you have here. After 27 pages of text, the best case you can come up with is:

1) You don't think I'm scumhunting enough
2) You disagree with my points

Teach me your secrets, master.

This looks like a royal case of OMGUS, since Xyl and I were the ones who started the pressure on you. Still would back an ekiM lynch in the worst way.

[ekiM]

Hey, I didn't say I was good at this game.

Why did you park your vote on me for the entire day yesterday? "I'm happy with my vote until ekiM answers my questions" while I'm V/LA accomplishes... what? Avoiding accountability for being involved in wagons?

And I'm still yet to see someone explain to me what that "initial pressure" was motivated by.

[Xylthixlm]

Yes, some of my reads are vague. There are 15 players and I haven't fully grokked the gestalt.

No, I'd prefer not to use that format. The scum reads are the important bit, for townies.

Pretty please with sugar on top

[VP Baltar]

Why did you park your vote on me for the entire day yesterday? "I'm happy with my vote until ekiM answers my questions" while I'm V/LA accomplishes... what? Avoiding accountability for being involved in wagons?

So when someone declares V/LA a player should immediately remove their vote because there is clearly no purpose of it being there?

Also, I like how you are trying to paint me in broad strokes as someone who just voted you and went silent yesterday even though I commented on most of the current events and was actively questioning several players (iamausername, Herodotus were amongst the fore). Since you spent so much time reading my iso, I would have thought this would stick out to you. Both of those things were more than what I saw from your IIoA and "these people are scum because they don't want BaB to be lynched" accusations.

But hey, this line of argument is pretty awesome. Continue.

[ekiM]

So when someone declares V/LA a player should immediately remove their vote because there is clearly no purpose of it being there?

No, but I would expect that you would see something more scummy in a whole day than "he said 1 in 5 people are scum". I don't see what it accomplishes to keep your vote where it isn't doing anything when you could be commiting to something and pressuring your suspects.

What did keeping your vote on me while I was away accomplish?

Also, I like how you are trying to paint me in broad strokes as someone who just voted you and went silent yesterday even though I commented on most of the current events and was actively questioning several players (iamausername, Herodotus were amongst the fore). Since you spent so much time reading my iso, I would have thought this would stick out to you.

Asking questions isn't exactly committing yourself to anything.

And I'm still yet to see someone explain to me what that "initial pressure" was motivated by.

Still waiting. Especially good would be explaining how saying "1 of 5 lurkers is scum" in the RVS is more vote-worthy than anything else you saw all day.

[mith]

Vote Count:

8 to lynch.

SerialClergyman: 4 (elvis_knits, roflcopter, Xylthixlm, zu_Faul)
Kmd4390: 2 (ekiM, Yosarian2)
charter: 1 (PookyTheMagicalBear)
ekiM: 1 (Ojanen)
iamausername: 1 (VP Baltar)
Yosarian2: 1 (SerialClergyman)
zu_Faul: 1 (iamausername)

Not Voting: 4 (charter, Kmd4390, populartajo, Thesp)

[VP Baltar]

What did keeping your vote on me while I was away accomplish?

To let you know I found your comment seriously scummy. It clearly worked since you've taken so much offense to it. Also, while you were gone were some of my largest posts of the day. How does that fit with your not commenting on stuff argument?

Asking questions isn't exactly committing yourself to anything.

I think my suspicions were plenty clear from the types of questions I was asking. Should have also been clear when I said I'd eat a whole hat if iamausername is not scum. Doesn't that impress you?

Still waiting. Especially good would be explaining how saying "1 of 5 lurkers is scum" in the RVS is more vote-worthy than anything else you saw all day.

You know, no matter how many times you try to play it down I continue to disagree. I don't care that you said "deeply concerned" or that your said 50 times that you couldn't possibly have been serious. It is still a comment that irked me and didn't strike me as the usual RVS joking.

I don't see how you are saying that it was an RVS comment considering you implied your bandwagoning Xyl vote in that same post to be serious.

[Xylthixlm]

What did keeping your vote on me while I was away accomplish?

What harm did it do?

[roflcopter]

ekim is creating a whole lot of noise, but i'm unclear on what any of it has actually accomplished aside from detracting from the attention clergyman should be getting.

more serialclergyman votes please. vp baltar should come back to the wagon. yos2 should join us as well. and all you nonvoters need to get off your butts and do something.

serialclergyman has the official roflcopter "this is a solid wagon" seal of approval

[Ojanen]

I'm working an insane amount of hours this week, feeling broken from tiredness and falling behind here. I'm not attempting to read the wallposts between Yos and Serial right now. Will do that and comment on Saturday. The point I do see as possibly valid against Serial is parking his vote early on BaB and apparently actively lurking through the crucial stages of the lynch D1, but as I said, not much clue about his content posts yet.

Then you expressed suspicion for kmd for BaB-related stuff. And THEN you came back and found kmd's reaction scummy, and in detail today.

(shrug) Ok, true enough. When I was suspicious of KMD and went back and carefully re-read his posts in isolation, they seemed worse to me then when I read the thread through the first time.

Why did you say it was disturbing selective quoting when I first pointed this out?

There was just a flavor of trying to inflame that argument back today.

You keep saying that, but I'm not trying to "inflame an argument" or whatever, I've trying to both question KMD, get information about him, and trying attack him, as he is currently my main suspect.

I kept saying that cause of the position change, cause you suddenly got to this argument you had not been a part of and brought back those posts, because your arguments, at first, suddenly started defending elvis because of that vote instead of attacking Kmd, which is a subtle but significant difference in tone.

Kmd, could you explain again why you think Elvis is scum? Because between the two of you, I find you significantly more suspicious.

Even in your first comment something about the way you say "between the two of you" slightly bothers me, although can't put my finger on it. Something about trapping the view between the 2 of them. But this one is an obscure gut point.

Can you explain why you have a strong townread on KMD?

I might read him in iso later if I have time and give you specific quotes. But uselessly generalizedly: gut, meta (contributed to his mislynch in Adel's beta hydra game as scum recently so checked him out but didn't actually think he was scum there either), giving puffs of a certain breed of wifom I recognize as a towntell.
To an extent, I don't personally agree on the general meta of what is scummy. I feel that there's an area inside the concept of cases on the sitewide meta that is used in millions of mislynches, and feel like Kmd is falling there.

ekiM post coming next.

[Yosarian2]

(I had this post typed up 5:00 AM this morning, before I went off to work. I thought I had posted it then, but it looks like that didn't happen somehow, so I'll repost it now, then I'll respond to stuff that's happened since then.)

Ok, this post pushed me over the edge. I'm now convinced sc is scum, more so then I am on KMD.

unvote:KMD

Vote:SerialClergyman

Yos2 is over the top. Aggression overload, posting overload. No time to think, just time to argue. No concessions, no doubt, just a clusterfuck of semi-tells and rhetoric. I don't believe he's thinking about his position, just latching on to whatever he knows appears scummy and running with it.

SC attacks me for "Aggression overload, posting overload"; which I guess means, being aggressive and posting a lot? Being aggressive and posting a lot are town-tells, if anything. He's attacking me for "arguing", which is just completely absurd (He attacks me with BS reasons, and I'm scummy for "arguing" with him about them?) and for "a clusterfuck of scum-tells and rhetoric". (It's bad to look for scum tells now?)

I'm now pretty convinced that SC came into the thread, was under attack for lurking, so he put together a BS argument against a pro-town player who was already taking some heat. So I shoot down his case against me, and then he tries to claim I'm scummy for arguing with him?

[Ojanen]

TL;DR for page 26: ekiM throws a fit because elvis wanted to know who he was suspicious of.

QFT
ekiM's fit isn't making me dislike my vote.
Pointing violently at others is pointless derailing. Substantless aggression to get people off his back.

People don't like having questions ignored so I searched for my name and answered everything, just to be sure.
What's the motivation for this complaint?

Fluff is not productive. Slight taste of pointless pleasing attempt.

Re: the thing you don't think is a contradiction. It's actually more clear in your catch up.

Page 10
B&B 235, 237, 245 are just.... awful. Pretty sure he's scum. Worst thing: trying to discredit the Xyl+B&B not scum together line. What is the townie motivation?

When you agree with the original thought, I just don't like at all how you have a problem with seeing a townie motivation. BaB was not tryng to discredit anything out of the blue there, he was getting attacked because of the original thought.
Seems like we're gonna have to settle to "Isn't! Is too!" here though.

I disagree with everyone who has a problem with the deeply concerned thing though. Gut twinges are ok and it was maybe a slightly busyworkish but I can't see it specifically as scummy/serious.

[Kmd4390]

Shit! Just lost my whole post. Ok, doing this the ghetto way. ekiM is scum. I basically just agreed with Rofl and voted.

Vote ekiM

. Serial wagon makes no sense. People are beating a dead horse about my unvote on Bridge by saying I distanced from the wagon when I

expected

to take heat, but I didn't want to lynch someone who I thought was town.

And Tajo, Medeival is my only completed game with TownYos.

[Yosarian2]

M'okay.
So close but so far from consensus.

Yos: Anyway, B&B voted me for X, I proved X wrong. He still hasn't answered the points I raised against him. He's probably scum.
B&B: THAT'S A LIE! I DIDN'T VOTE YOU FOR X!

Should read:

Yos: Anyway, B&B

is voting

me for X, I proved X wrong. He still hasn't answered the points I raised against him. He's probably scum.
B&B: THAT'S A LIE!

I JUST TOLD YOU about Y and Z which I specifically said I was voting you for.

You know, you really aren't going to get away with lying about stuff THAT'S IN THE THREAD. You QUOTED my post yourself, so why on earth do you think you can get away with lying about what I said now?

What I actually said was

TL;DR. B&B voted me because I think you're not his scumbuddy...

I didn't say "B&B IS voting me for X", I said "B&B

VOTED

me for X." Past tense. Which is what I just said, until you "corrected" it with a false version. Pretty clearly, I was talking about the reason B&B voted for me in the first place, not the other stuff he came up with later; if you weren't clear on that when reading my original post, I would certainly think you would have noticed it when I explained it.

So, tell me, SC; why do you feel the need to lie and misrepresent what I said (in admittedly a fairly subtle way that some people might not have noticed) in order to try to make me look like a liar?

This is why I think you're scum. You are pretty clearly not a pro-town person trying to find out the truth; you're a scum who's trying to find reasons to attack me, and if you can't find them in thread you just lie about what I said. Normally I might brush this off as a misunderstanding, but not only a few pages after we both quoted my original post, and I just explained it to you, yet again.

Your response to the lurking question is interesting. I would have said that my lurking this game was indeed scummy because it's very unlike my meta (see my sig). I don't think I've seen many people who view it as an outright scumtell - most I find seem to view it as a nulltell that is anti town. Will be metaing to check your stance.

Um...dude, you're not even the first person IN THIS GAME I've attacked for lurking. Lurking is ALWAYS a scumtell.

Lurking while riding a bad bandwagon all the way to a lynch, and then attacking other people for that same wagon who had better reasons to be on it then you, is a even stronger and more reliable one, in my experience.

Anyway, if you really want to meta me, I'm sure half a dozen people in this game could tell you that I always attack lurkers, and that for a long time my signature was "nuke all lurkers."

...if I were scum, I wouldn't want people to KNOW I was scum with KMD. So rather than declare he's town, I would just attack you and your credibility, so your attacks against kmd are naturally dismissed. However I'm making no secret of my gut read of KMD, so the chainsaw charge is pretty useless.

Ah, the "if I was scum I wouldn't act so scummy" defense.

If KMD is scum, then you defending him is a scum tell, pure and simple. That's a conditional tell, though, and I wouldn't vote you for that until we find out KMD's alignment; I'm actually more convinced you're scum then he is now.

What was particularly funny about the situation was that he was saying I was scummy for attacking you - which, of course, would be a chainsaw defence of you if you were scum. So my point wasn't attacking you or rofl, it was saying his attack on me wasn't valid, and so obviously demonstrated by his own very sentence.

The rolefishing part of your post was this part.

Unless you've got some knowledge about Yos2 that I don't have...

I'll mention possible connections between scummy looking players and possible chainsaw defenses and I see and stuff like that, that's fine. But I would never make a comment like that; you're basically asking him if he has "information about Yos2 that you don't have". In other words, it sounds like you're trying to fish for a reaction to see if he's an information role with an innocent on me, and only scum should be trying to figure that out in thread like that.

[Ojanen]

I want to hear more from tajo.
His BaB hammer left me debating whether it was sincere. Dunno why. Otherwise his points have been mostly tajo-style catch ups or reasonable but smallish points, which sets my alarms slightly. The scumlist he's asking from Mike would be nice from him too, very preferably with reasoning.

[Yosarian2]

Um. Wow. Just wow. My argument was "scum never claim vanilla"? Really?!? Could have sworn I used specifics from the setup of this game like the fact that several of the same power role may exist, so a counterclaim wouldn't mean one is scum, and scum would have been dumb to claim vanilla when facing a Day 1 lynch. The only exception is if someone bussed so hard that the lynch had to happen for that person to gain town points. This is why Bridge was so obvtown after he claimed vanilla.

I still think vanilla is the most likely claim a flustered scum who finds himself in trouble day 1 would make; claiming something else might stall the lynch, but you tend to get trapped by your own claim the end. That happened to Tajo in lynch all lurkers, for example; he claimed tracker as scum day 1, and then despite really strong scum play on his part for the rest of the game, his tracker claim ended up getting him caught in the end.

Claiming anything other then vanillia on day 1 is just a really high-risk move for scum to make; sometimes they take that chance, but I don't believe that scum are less likely to claim vanilla then something else.

Well how is it scummy? I think it's null. More of a playstyle tell than anything.

Eh. Today, you made a decision that I don't agree with, a decision to vote for Elvis, who seems pretty townish to me. I don't see how "I voted her yesterday too" is a logical reason for town to make that decision; I honestly don't see how consistency is a relevant defense here. I don't really think you other reasons for voting her made sense either.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Tbh, I dont remember a solid opinion from you in the elvis-kmd thing. It just feels like you were saving your opinion for today or at least you are reinforcing it. Could you point me where you were saying exactly that?

Tajo: Sure, let me go back and find some quotes from day 1.

One main argument against KMD was based on his unvote in response to a vanilla claim, and I did say that that was a scummy move when he did it on day 1.

Also, this is the worst reason to not lynch someone I have ever heard in my life.

Thinking someone is town is a bad reason to unvote?

"They claimed vanillia" is a terrible reason to unvote, yeah.

He was pressured and forced to claim. If he claimed any of the other roles in the mod post #2, he would have been forced to demonstrate the ability he was claiming, plus he would have been at a high risk of a counterclaim. I don't understand why you think a scum claiming vanilla is unlikely there; it's basically what I would expect to do in that situation.

Plus, of coure, there's the obvious fact that running someone up to a claim, and then unvoting them if they claim vanillia, is terrible pro-town stratagy; if someone is doing that, there's a good chance they're scum trying to out power roles with a sequence of bandwagon-to-a-claim actions within a single day.

I also said this, while responding to Claus:

When I ask him about the information, he come with (289) "We got a ton of information, if KMD is scum, one of his scumbuddies is in the Elvis wagon" - Wow. That's a ton of info you got from excusing yourself from the first big discussion on D1.

If KMD is scum (which, at this point, I think he probably is), then the information from that bandwagon will likely make it much easier to catch his scumbuddies. The reverse is true if Elvis is scum (although I'm now pretty doubtfull of that.)

And this in a later post.

I don't think it's fair to say elvis misrepresented KMD's post. I think she may have misunderstood his first post, but all she did was ask him for a clarification, and he got kind of weird in his responses; basically, his responses for why he was assuming that there were X number of scum in the game seemed to implicity admit that he was, in fact, assuming that, which was Elvis' origional suspicion of him, so she voted for him. He later said that that was because he was overtired or something, which is possible, but...eh. I don't think Elvis comes out looking bad in that exchange.

I think it's pretty clear that towards the end of day 1, I was pretty convinced that Elvis was town-ish and KMD was scummy. That viewpoint slowly developed during the course of day 1.

[Kmd4390]

I still think vanilla is the most likely claim a flustered scum who finds himself in trouble day 1 would make; claiming something else might stall the lynch, but you tend to get trapped by your own claim the end. That happened to Tajo in lynch all lurkers, for example; he claimed tracker as scum day 1, and then despite really strong scum play on his part for the rest of the game, his tracker claim ended up getting him caught in the end.

Claiming anything other then vanillia on day 1 is just a really high-risk move for scum to make; sometimes they take that chance, but I don't believe that scum are less likely to claim vanilla then something else.

Why are you ignoring the fact that several of the same power role can exist in this game?

Well how is it scummy? I think it's null. More of a playstyle tell than anything.

Eh. Today, you made a decision that I don't agree with, a decision to vote for Elvis, who seems pretty townish to me. I don't see how "I voted her yesterday too" is a logical reason for town to make that decision; I honestly don't see how consistency is a relevant defense here. I don't really think you other reasons for voting her made sense either.

I usually follow with my original reads unless something changes my mind. At that time, nothing had done so.

One main argument against KMD was based on his unvote in response to a vanilla claim, and I did say that that was a scummy move when he did it on day 1.

But you didn't mention this as a reason for voting me. You said you voted me for the Ek vote.

[Yosarian2]

I still think vanilla is the most likely claim a flustered scum who finds himself in trouble day 1 would make; claiming something else might stall the lynch, but you tend to get trapped by your own claim the end. That happened to Tajo in lynch all lurkers, for example; he claimed tracker as scum day 1, and then despite really strong scum play on his part for the rest of the game, his tracker claim ended up getting him caught in the end.

Claiming anything other then vanillia on day 1 is just a really high-risk move for scum to make; sometimes they take that chance, but I don't believe that scum are less likely to claim vanilla then something else.

Why are you ignoring the fact that several of the same power role can exist in this game?

I'm not. Tajo wasn't counterclaimed in lynch all lurkers, there was no tracker in the game. In the long run, it didn't matter, because as it turned out the setup was one where a tracker didn't really make sense, but scum had no way of knowing that day 1.

Take a look at the list of roles on page one. Most of them would be hard for a scum to fake for the entire game, considering that for almost all of them you would have to claim a target or an investigative result every single night, and that's risky for all kind of reasons. The only ones that wouldn't be hard to fake are the vengeful townie and the tree stump, are those are roles that shouldn't prevent a lynch anyway; if you're about to lynch someone and they claim tree stump, you say "Great, then stump yourself", and I doubt a vengeful townie claim would stop a lynch wagon either.

Well how is it scummy? I think it's null. More of a playstyle tell than anything.

Eh. Today, you made a decision that I don't agree with, a decision to vote for Elvis, who seems pretty townish to me. I don't see how "I voted her yesterday too" is a logical reason for town to make that decision; I honestly don't see how consistency is a relevant defense here. I don't really think you other reasons for voting her made sense either.

I usually follow with my original reads unless something changes my mind. At that time, nothing had done so.

I guess I'm still trying to understand why you had a scum read on Elvis; and for that matter, if you did, why it went away so suddenly.

One main argument against KMD was based on his unvote in response to a vanilla claim, and I did say that that was a scummy move when he did it on day 1.

But you didn't mention this as a reason for voting me. You said you voted me for the Ek vote.

Uh...yes, yes I did, I mentioned it in the very sentence where I voted for you in fact.

I'm really not buying this. Between this, and you're "bandwagon B&B until we get a vanilla claim and then drop the vote" stuff yesterday, I'm pretty sure you're scum here. Vote:Kmd

[Kmd4390]

I'm not going to talk about scum fakeclaims. It's over and done with. Bridge was a VT. His claim had me sure of that, so I unvoted. I feel like anything I say will help scum more than town, so I'm done discussing that.

EK seemed scummy to me. Mostly gut. I now think there's a decent chance I'm wrong, so I'm dropping it for now.

Ok, I must have missed that. My bad.

[VP Baltar]

Unvote, Vote: ekiM

yay for support finally.

vp baltar should come back to the wagon.

I'm not entirely convinced yet, but I'd like to hear his response to the points Yos has made about misrepping the BnB thing in particular. Anyway I can convince you and your posse to join the burgeoning ekiM wagon? It's hip and there's free drinks.

[Xylthixlm]

Anyway I can convince you and your posse to join the burgeoning ekiM wagon? It's hip and there's free drinks.

What's the tl;dr case on ekiM? Something to do with his interactions with elvis, or what?

[Yosarian2]

Oh, just noticed a few more questions adressed to me.

Then you expressed suspicion for kmd for BaB-related stuff. And THEN you came back and found kmd's reaction scummy, and in detail today.

(shrug) Ok, true enough. When I was suspicious of KMD and went back and carefully re-read his posts in isolation, they seemed worse to me then when I read the thread through the first time.

Why did you say it was disturbing selective quoting when I first pointed this out?

(shrug) In your initial post, you seemed to be implying that my attack on KMD was not really consistent with my day 1 behavior; if you had quoted my posts in a more fair way, I think it would have been clear that I was gradually becoming more suspicious of KMD as day 1 went on, and that that included re-evaluating his earlier behavior; your claim that it was a sudden, "severe" shift really seemed to come from you ignoring everything I said later in the day.

You keep saying that, but I'm not trying to "inflame an argument" or whatever, I've trying to both question KMD, get information about him, and trying attack him, as he is currently my main suspect.

I kept saying that cause of the position change, cause you suddenly got to this argument you had not been a part of and brought back those posts, because your arguments, at first, suddenly started defending elvis because of that vote instead of attacking Kmd, which is a subtle but significant difference in tone.

KMD's explanation for his vote seemed illogical and scummy to me, because I don't think there was anything wrong with Elvis's actions there.

Kmd, could you explain again why you think Elvis is scum? Because between the two of you, I find you significantly more suspicious.

Even in your first comment something about the way you say "between the two of you" slightly bothers me, although can't put my finger on it. Something about trapping the view between the 2 of them. But this one is an obscure gut point.

Well, that certanly wasn't my intent at all. More just pointing out that someone I thought (and think) looks rather scummy was voting someone who I think looks rather townish, and I wanted to know why. If he'd had a logical reason for voting her there, even if I didn't agree with it, I wouldn't have thought he looked as scummy; the fact that he didn't really seem to know quite why he was voting her, other then a vauge "I was voting her yesterday"-ish thing bugs me though.

To an extent, I don't personally agree on the general meta of what is scummy. I feel that there's an area inside the concept of cases on the sitewide meta that is used in millions of mislynches, and feel like Kmd is falling there.

Interesting. So...I guess you're just saying you don't think the case against him is valid?