If you're scum, the game is already lost.
Mini #764: Notre Dame Mafia, Game Over
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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I was his scumbuddy in a game and nom'ed him for a scummy for best scum and he won. So yes, I'd say he's good at being scum, though I don't see any way he can fakeclaim his way to victory in this game.
Also, I wouldn't worry too much about replacements. That newbie game was probably the worst in terms of needing replacements (three people and a mod day one) I've ever seen.-
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charter Beware of Dog
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Ehhhh, I dont know. This doesn't sound very convincing.Kinetic wrote:
Not only am I not scum, I've already cleared a player as not scum. I'm THAT good.charter wrote:There are so many people that need voting out. AHHHHH, I can't decide!
vote Kinetic
If you're scum, the game is already lost.
Serious though, I think I might know what you're talking about, but I believe it would require a massclaim of cards, yes? Not sure if that is a good idea right now.-
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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unvote, vote ABR
Serious vote. Will explain later.
Also, if you're town, you will notice that there's extra lines at the end of your role PM than the one posted. Hopefully my telling you this convinces you I cannot possibly be scum, so please at least give the massclaim idea thought.
I think we should massclaim cards. There's good reason for this, but I won't explain unless we decide to do this and then after we do it. Of course there is the argument that scum knows what everyone has, but after two nights, it won't matter anyway. I think the knowledge town gains from doing this can catch at least one scum immediately. Please at least consider it before you shoot it down.-
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charter Beware of Dog
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Further elaboration. As long as the mafia didn't plan for a massclaim (unlikely as it's rarely done for who knows what reason) and they aren't all next to each other on the player list, I think my plan will work. They can't lie about their choices or we will know (unless they're all next to each other). I've probably said too much, sorry I can't elaborate any further right now.
Please don't ask me to clarify either, if you are skeptical just say so and we can procede with normal scumhunting.-
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charter Beware of Dog
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My plan doesn't require them knowing which cards are in play, if that has any bearing on whether you're willing to give it a shot or not.Kinetic wrote:Actually, did the math, the max the scum can know in play right now is 50% of the cards, assuming perfect distribution, which is possible. Either way they know 40-50% of the cards currently in play.-
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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There's 36 cards total (12 players, 3 cards each)ortolan wrote:can you explain your maths on the percentage of cards the mafia might know Kinetic
At this point I think a mass-claim's a decent idea.
If scum were ideally spaced on the playerlist (ie 1, 4, 8) then they would know the original three cards they were given, plus the two passed to them, plus the one passed to them, for a total of six cards known per scum, times three scum, is 18 cards. At most 50% of the cards.-
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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My whole theory relied on scum not preparing for a massclaim on day one (even if they did, it would be possible if they were dumb with their preparations). This is a reasonable assumption because games rarely have massclaims day one (and I often get lynched for suggesting the idea). I was assuming scum had not planned for a day one massclaim, and thus would panic and just tell the truth, not thinking it through thoroughly.
Assuming this, I had said something about we massclaim, and town would know when scum lied. Scum can only lie about their first card and expect to get away with it anyway. However, I said town would know when they lied to try and keep them honest, I don't think it possible to know if they lied about their first card.
ANYONE who claimed to take the 1/4 vig first round is 100% guarenteed scum. This is entirely worthless to town, and any other power is far outweighs 'not letting scum have 1/4 vig'. I would find anyone who took the plague card first round to be extremely suspect as well. Anyone who took it over the 1/2 cop card I'd call guarenteed scum for sure.
You sharing you thoughts basically spelled all this out for scum, so NO ONE is going to claim to have taken either of these first now. Massclaiming now is just going to out all the protective and cop cards, not catch scum.
Ironically, you cleared ABR from the reason I was earlier thinking he was scum, so
unvote, vote kast-
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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Yeah, that's what made me realize you probably weren't scum. You passed another card to me that made me think you were scum, but the others you passed outweigh this one.Albert B. Rampage wrote:
Elaboratecharter wrote: Ironically, you cleared ABR from the reason I was earlier thinking he was scum, so
unvote, vote kast
Two NK cards are with players directly below me-
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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Oh no, I realize that with any form of massclaim, there is the potential to give scum a lot of info. However, regardless of information you gain through an actual massclaim (which can be great), I find the opportunity to catch scum through their reactions to massclaim can be very effective. I've done it before, and I see no reason it won't work again.
As far as my vote, it's serious, but obviously my "lynch kast in seven posts" was not, but now scumhunting will be the determining factor in where it goes. I've already narrowed scum down to about 8 people. Zwet and you are at the peak on that list.-
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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One. I'm against massclaim now. I also don't understand why we would just claim plague and cop, can someone explain?ortolan wrote:I think anyone (in addition to AceMarksman) who passed the 1/4 nk cards should claim.
But otherwise, I guess charter has it (seeing as ABR said he passed two nk cards).
charter do you have two night-kill cards or just one?-
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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kast, I see that the people in this game are like me and don't read long posts. I will read these, but not gonna read any more to come.
Response to kast...
I never said that you said scum should and would lie. I merely tried to get them to tell the truth, and then I dropped wanting to massclaim after your post, which told them what lies would be safe.
Also, you make a lot of these accusations against me kast, but don't ever say I'm scum or nothing, what are you getting at? Stop beating around the bush.
Meh, obviously had no proof, didn't hurt to embelish the idea a little since I genuinely believed it would catch scum.kast wrote:Charter directly claimed that it would catch at least one scum immediately. I acknowledge that you did not make that direct claim.
If you try to say lynching these people is acceptable for that reason, I will cease doing anything but voting you.kast wrote: A death of any one of {Charter, Kast, KidIcarus, Kinetic} prior to Night 2 allows us to ensure zero extra NKs OR definite capture of the lying scum.
FOS Ace. You've moved up to Zwet levels of needing lynched.-
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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I was narrowminded and only saw things from one side. His explaination made sense and any hope of massclaim being good was ruined by that point so I dropped it.Rishi wrote:
After Kinetic claimed taking the 1/4 vig, charter definitely didn't say anything about it. He didn't even blink. Then he disappeared for a bit, and started being a cheerleader for lynching zwet. Didn't even mention Kinetic once for making this statement. Now I don't think Kinetic is scum for taking the card, but it seems that charter has completely changed his position on this point, without even mentioning it. Plus throw in the fact that his method of scumhunting is "massclaim and hope that the scum are dumber than the rest of us" and then essentially posting "lynch zwet" ad nauseum and you have his play in a nutshell.charter wrote: ANYONE who claimed to take the 1/4 vig first round is 100% guarenteed scum. This is entirely worthless to town, and any other power is far outweighs 'not letting scum have 1/4 vig'. I would find anyone who took the plague card first round to be extremely suspect as well. Anyone who took it over the 1/2 cop card I'd call guarenteed scum for sure.
Vote: charter
My LOS is Ace, Zwet, Budja in no particular order.
Budja is scum. Look at his posts in isolation. Look at 5 and 16 and he is going out of his way to not vote people.
unvote, vote Budja
There really wasn't much to talk about. I'm trying to steer clear of Kast because I can't argue that much.
I can't really justify a Slicey vote now that he's flaked based off just that one bad post of his.-
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charter Beware of Dog
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The 5 and 16 are if you filter his posts, his post 5 and 16 I feel are scummy. Add in the fact that he's not voting, and I think he's just waiting for a wagon to form to hop on. If I recall, Zwet isn't voting either, another reason I'm suspicious of him.AceMarksman wrote:Charter, I don't fully understand your vote. What reasons did you have, again? How did those cooincide with what you quoted? You bring up posts 5 and 16, are you talking about posts in game or posts made by budja?-
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charter Beware of Dog
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He's arguing against Kinetic using Kast's words.Budja 5 wrote:Considering I am after you, I can confirm you are not lying about the cards you passed.
@Kinetic, what do you think of this -
Kast seems to be making a valid point here.Kast wrote: It will allow scum to kill dangerous investigative roles and plan around protections.
Posts to give a neutral read on two people, a useless comment about ABR, and a lurkerhunt on Slicey. This post was very weak and served no town purpose.Budja 16 wrote:Ace comes off impatient and isn't putting up a good defence but my gut says he is clumsy town now.
Zwet is neutral to me. I would like ABR to stop his campaign against zwet and comment on other things too
( ironically, your posts seem to have equal or less content than zwets)
Where is Slicey?-
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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@kast, that's my explanation, if it doesn't fly to you, so be it. I had only considered one particular view, once it was revealed that I was wrong, I just dropped it.
Yes, this is what I saw that was wrong. Parroting was the word I was looking for.kast wrote:It also lets him appear to be contributing, when he is actually just parroting other players. Is this an accurate representation of your objection?
This is hard to believe that you don't see buddying.kast wrote:Overall- I have a much weaker read on Budja after my re-read. Initially, I had an impression that he was asking questions and trying to arrive at conclusions without making poor assumptions. I don't agree with one main point (I don't think there is evidence of buddying with Ace or that ), but it does seem that he may have been trying to avoid stepping on any toes while also instigating others.
Buddying or distancing, depends on Ace's alignment, but regardless, this is bad for Budja.Budja 11 wrote:The reason Ace's "oh shit" could have been a scumslip is that he could have been hiding the fact that he know the mafia could collect 1/4NK together. Such a strong reaction rung false until I saw his next post and explanation.
Buddying or deflecting, once again depends on Ace, but once again is bad regardless for Budja.Budja 16 wrote:Ace comes off impatient and isn't putting up a good defence but my gut says he is clumsy town now.
There are more if you want to put a little thought and interpretation into his posts, but these are cut and dry examples. Also, Budja's posts just lack genuine scumhunting.
Haha, just got to 24.
Ummmm, how do you know Ace is a mislynch? He was looking like a damn fine lynch until I saw this.Budja 24 wrote:Ace is an easy target. If I was looking for a mislynch, I would be on his wagon now.
I would like to request numerous votes on Budja.-
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charter Beware of Dog
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Well, I went back and looked at context, Budja just comes off worse and worse. In 11, I saw nothing leading up to that, except for yet another wishy washy post (post 7). Ace's "Oh shit" wasn't a scumtell. It wasn't scummy at all. The fact that after Budja clarifes the mechanic, and then 'agrees' with Zwet seemed pretty bad too.
I have no idea what context you could be talking about for 16. I see it exactly how I described it. I'm not saying that giving opinions willfully or when asked is wrong. I'm saying the opinions he did give came from scum. They weren't opinions at all, just statements to blend in.
Also, Budja's vote for ABR (which seemed to come only after discussion of how he left his RVS vote on for like 14 pages arose) is entirely useless and could have come several pages earlier. No one is going to lynch ABR for being useless when there are actively scummy people that need it. It's just a safe place to lay down a vote, because the reason is valid, but it won't serve any purpose.-
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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Argh, I'm not explaining why Budja is scummy very well at all, I apologize. For a day one lynch, they don't get much better than Budja. However, he needs to respond to 350 before I try and clarify, because I think I have some good points against him.
Yes, I don't think I'm inventing fake points, but I'm probably not explaining why Budja is scum very well. I will try and elaborate after he posts again.kast wrote:There are legitimate points against Budja. You don't need to invent fake ones. I think you may be suffering from confirmation bias about the buddying.
kast, I have a few questions for you. Can you please explain to me how I've been actively scummy in your opinion? Can you tell me if you think I'm scum or town (just a few words)? Can you give just a list of your top three candidates for being scum (not necessarily who you find suspicious, but if their alignment was revealed by the mod, who's would be scum)? Why aren't you voting?-
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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What on earth was I supposed to respond to? You gave a heavily narrowminded and slanted summary of part of my early play. That's not a case at all. There's no questions for me to respond to or anything. All you said was 'charter thought massclaim would be a good idea, but dropped it after being shown differing opinions'.Rishi wrote:Still waiting on charter to answer the points I raised against him.
Ace, terrible case. I really don't know what else to say about that.-
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charter Beware of Dog
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For starters, how do any of the things you mentioned indicate I am scum? How is me saying a terrible case is what it is ad hom either? Have good accusations that need defending been leveled against me once this game?
I explained my ABR vote. He passed a card I didn't think a townie should. Then I looked at the other two and realized those probably outweighed the other.
Did you not see kast's post? How that ruined any chance of any massclaim? We already went over this.
THE SUDDEN SWITCH WAS KASTS POST. I know I've said that several times, I don't see how you could have missed it.
Your "case" boils down to I didn't reveal my massclaim idea (even though I kind of did), I stopped advocating massclaim after kast's post, and you didn't see my explaination for my ABR vote. In short, terrible case.-
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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...SO SCUMMY of Ace.
First off, I note how you completely ignore my shooting down your case. You didn't unvote or respond, so I assume you think it's still good.AceMarksman wrote:Charter: Ok, say you lynch either of us, what then? What information would you gather from my flip? Also, is there anyone else you find scummy? Anyone that seems obvtown to you?
What do you mean "what then?" We go to night. Then Day two. Then the rest of the game.
What information would I get from your flip? What?!?!? We see who was eager to get onto your wagon, who ignored it, who gave legit reasons. The same kind of stuff that you get from EVERY wagon.
Is there anyone else I find scummy?!?@? WHAT??? I've repeated that I find you and Budja scummy as hell. How many suspects do I need day one? How many do you have? Why aren't you concerned with others that have more/less/the same number (whichever I'm doing that you don't like) of suspects as me?
Anyone that seems obvtown to me? Several people. Not going to tell your scumbuddies who to kill though.
The fact that Ace comes back with this after I argue against his "case" makes him skyrocket into outer space in scumminess.-
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
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Why does not giving a reason for a vote I don't keep long (and pretty sure I was the only one voting him at the time) make me more likely to be scum than town? Just because you don't see town doing something, doesn't mean town won't. This isn't a valid argument because it hinges on what YOU personally think.Ace wrote:-Any time someone votes without giving a reason in the same post gets an IGMEOY from me. The reason for this vote was not fully answered until a few posts ago. This is also not something I would see a town aligned player doing.
This is so wrong it pains me. The very fact that you make the argument like this, assumes I am town, which means you are scum (because you assume I'm town, but are still voting me). How is me having (what I Thought was) a gamebreaking plan, but not disclosing it make me scummy? If I was scum, wouldn't I have just kept my mouth shut and not said anything? You are assuming that since I had one, but didn't disclose it upfront, that I have to be scum. This is ridiculous and not how massclaims on day one work at all. You don't explain how you catch scum through massclaim, then claim.Ace wrote:-Your plan was concealed from the town. Having a potentially game breaking strategy yet witholding it is never a pro-town course of action.
Go back and read kast's post. It ruined ALL hope of massclaim being effective.Ace wrote:-You go from supporting a massclaim to being completely against it in the course of 1-2 posts. You also go from what apears to be a neutral read on kast to being "willing to lynch him in 7 posts" for a recent post. This reminds me, what in his post did you disagree with? What points did you wish to bring up against it? I didn't see anything particularly wrong with it (sans how freakishly long it was).
No, that actually makes your vote even weaker and me more sure you are scum.Ace wrote:Does that satisfy you?
Rishi has just been a lurker. From what I recall, his vote on me was pretty early, and while bad, I think it came before Ace and Budja were caught, so the scummiest thing I see from it is that that is all he can add to the game, when there is a lot he is just ignoring.ort wrote:charter: do you find Rishi (who is also voting for you) scummy?
What about ABR?
ABR has just been useless. Haven't seen anything scummy from him.
Completely illogical conclusion. Also if this is the only benefit of lynching me when I flip town, you need to move on to someone else, because that's really zero reason to lynch me.Ace wrote:If town: It will disprove an ort-charter relationship (which I am seeing). It will make me consider Rishi as a scum candidate
You feeling good about your scumdar isn't a reason to lynch anyone. UMMMM, HOLD ON. How can it bring up bussing between me and budja? Budja isn't even going after me. This is also a ridiculously weak reason to lynch someone, even if you "think" they are scum.Ace wrote:If scum: It will make me feel good about my scumdar. It will strengthen an ort-charter relationship. It will bring up the issue of bussing between him and budja.
Oh, I see ort set this mess straight in 411.
Ort, as far as the apothecary stuff goes, don't scum have to use it on the night they would be killed?
That I was narrowminded and wrong.Rishi wrote:No, that wasn’t all I said. What I said is that, earlier in the game, you made a statement that anyone who keeps a 1/4 NK card or Plague would be 100% guaranteed scum (or something like that). Then, when people started to claim that they had those cards, you didn’t even say anything about it. You completely ignored the issue. What is your opinion on this now?
I still don't think they should keep them, but I don't see it scummy of them if they do. My reaction to Kinetic was that he had a good idea, one that I didn't think of. I think Kinetic is way less scummy than most of the people in this game.Rishi wrote:Should people keep or pass those cards? And if your opinion changed, what changed it? What was your reaction when Kinetic revealed he kept those cards (I think he was the first one to reveal)? What do you think of Kinetic in general?
I might even be leaning Ace over Budja at this point.-
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charter Beware of Dog
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I give up. I can't do this anymore. I am ripping my hair out of my head trying to refute Ace's bad attacks. This is the last one I can muster the willpower to refute.
Mod, can we get a votecount please?
WRONG. Zeenon just replaced in and dropped a vote with no reason, and seems to be content with that. You also COMPLETELY ignore ort's point with this really bad attempt at deflecting. It pretty much invalidates (again) your original point.AceMarksman wrote:
Oh, I completely forgot about them (mainly because we haven't heard much from them) but zEEnon's vote is from the RVS, no?ortolan wrote:Rishi and zEEnon are both currently voting for charter. Why did you not raise the possibility of one or the other of these being busing scum, if charter flips scum?
This isn't what you argued in the beginning. Your original argument assumed my strategy was protown. Do you not understand that if you first say what claims would be scummy, then claim, that it's impossible to catch scum from massclaim.Ace wrote:How do you glean this bs from my argument, huh? You claimed to have a good plan, but we wouldn't know which alignment your plan was good for. A pro town player would give as much information as they could, therefore I infer that your plan was not a pro town one.
I was all for massclaim before kast's post.Ace wrote:You were against a massclaim before kast's post, no?
Because I'm getting fed up with trying to argue with you. You are using bad attacks way more often than Rishi.Ace wrote:You keep making these generalizations like "there is a lot he is just ignoring" or "he has been so scummy." Rishi also asked a few of the same general questions that I did, why did you answer mine with a more callous tone than his?
Here's a prime example. This has nothing to do with what you quoted of mine.Ace wrote:Because being scummy isn't reason enough..?-
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charter Beware of Dog
- Beware of Dog
- Beware of Dog
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- Location: Virginia
Well, I'm still preferring Budja over Ace. Budja went from having a gut read of clumsy town (which in my opinion isn't a very strong read) to saying Ace was a mislynch, where there was seemingly no doubt in his mind. I'm still thinking scumslip.
@Rishi, why is the majority of the game not worth commenting on to you? Who are your top three suspects and why?-
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charter Beware of Dog
- Beware of Dog
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- Posts: 9261
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- Location: Virginia
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charter Beware of Dog
- Beware of Dog
- Beware of Dog
- Posts: 9261
- Joined: July 12, 2007
- Location: Virginia
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charter Beware of Dog
- Beware of Dog
- Beware of Dog
- Posts: 9261
- Joined: July 12, 2007
- Location: Virginia
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charter Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
- Beware of Dog
- Beware of Dog
- Posts: 9261
- Joined: July 12, 2007
- Location: Virginia
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charter Beware of Dog
- Beware of Dog
- Beware of Dog
- Posts: 9261
- Joined: July 12, 2007
- Location: Virginia
Can Budja and DGB and kast (if he is indeed scum) just hurry up and vote me and end my misery? In the past 48 hours this game has gone so far downhill it's unsalvagable barring a Budja lynch in the next however many votes we need.
Ace, I pray for your sake that you are indeed Budja's scumbuddy, if you're town I'm at an utter loss for words at this atrocity.
I hand you all gold in the form of Budjascum and all I get is a lot of votes.-
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charter Beware of Dog
- Beware of Dog
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charter Beware of Dog
- Beware of Dog
- Beware of Dog
- Posts: 9261
- Joined: July 12, 2007
- Location: Virginia
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charter Beware of Dog
- Beware of Dog
- Beware of Dog
- Posts: 9261
- Joined: July 12, 2007
- Location: Virginia