Mini Normal 1879 Bringer Mafia II [Game Over]
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Terata Goon
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First and only read: frogg town. I think the way hes talking down to sheep constantly while pressuring is kinda hard to fake well as scum. Some1 can fill me in ok froggs scum play?
I havent played with sheep b4 obv, but he strikes me as a person that would defend himself awkardly as either alignment, so while i think towns could be pinged by his weird wordings, i dont rly think its scummy.
I would like to know why Wheme thinks the 3 agreeing with froggs push looked scummy to him. You think sheep has posted towny enough for it to be weird for townies to push on him too? I certainly dont and would love some expanding-
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Terata Goon
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Terata Goon
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The way you voted the only wagon that you could actually have an opinion about and labeled your vote as...nothing. Looks to me like you just slipped it in there as a "lalala, im just RVS-voting, don't mind me". I either expect a serious vote on for example Sheep with some comment attached, with your suspicion and what YOU didn't like about him, or an obvious RVS vote on some1 that isn't a mainwagon or very active. This is in between and it pings me.In post 64, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:
What was awkward about the way I popped in?In post 62, Terata wrote:I do think the WAY lil popped in was slightly awkward tho.
VOTE: Lil Uzi Vert here is a start. Gn-
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Terata Goon
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Also, im not used to this maj-lynch d1, feels weird to be talking about someone looking scummy for voting close to it so soon into the day. Like, i can't see scum using that as a valid strat and trying to get away with it without being seen. It just seems dumb to me, so im not gonna go that route, i think THAT particular part of the lil's vote is NAI, i think it's the other shit i mentioned earlier that's actually scummy. But maybe im wrong on it being NAI, who knows. Maybe scum's just ballsy af-
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Terata Goon
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I think it MIGHT actually be scummy to mindlessly push someone for making a vote putting it dangeriously close. Since it's a simple thing to push for, it's so objectively wrong that scum feels super confident calling people out for it and pushing them, while towns are more likely to have the thought "it's bad, but would scum necessarily do it more than town?". So im keeping an eye on Wheme and Hawk for that, but mainly Hawk since he wasn't even the one who noticed it but just jumped on it when he saw it mentioned elsewhere.-
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Terata Goon
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Terata Goon
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i actually liked this reaction much much more. Pretty towny imoIn post 51, Lowell wrote:@Fro99, you don't need to defend my honor. But seriously thanks for defending my honor.
VOTE: sheep
Is the slip real? Who knows? Am I going to laugh if the sheep flips scum? You bet!-
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Terata Goon
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Terata Goon
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Terata Goon
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Terata Goon
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wait, you seriously think people's intention was to maj sheep and end the day right there?In post 91, Naomi-Tan wrote:
Okay so this vote bothers me. They first ask if the slip is real then shrugs and says; "who knows" and is voting anyway. That seems a VERY anti-green thought process.. like; 'people are calling this a slip I don't really know if it is or not but I'm going to vote anyway to end the day sooner rather than later' Given Garrys post about a one shot tipple vote thing, that really does add up to opportunism. either way its a shitty vote that deflects responsibility for their actions.In post 51, Lowell wrote:@Fro99, you don't need to defend my honor. But seriously thanks for defending my honor.
VOTE: sheep
Is the slip real? Who knows? Am I going to laugh if the sheep flips scum? You bet!
I would also like to state for the record that I believe garryoak doesn't have that power role.-
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Terata Goon
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Terata Goon
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Terata Goon
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Your first post stating that you won't/don't like giving reads lists d1, and that's the first thing you once you've caught up; a full readslist. Lol. I think that's majorly towny. I think Scum!Naomi would've been happy with the meta excuse that you like to avoid them early, but you doing anyway even if you don't have to meta-wise is towny-
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Terata Goon
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i actually liked Lowell's tone in the vote. I think saying "who knows" and still vote a slip for pressure is a completely valid process to go through as town, and the way he said it looked towny to me. While i hated lil's way of voting a real wagon without anything else to say. If you want to put pressure (like i think was lowell's idea) you want to say something attached to the vote to pressure/question the one you're voting. So i don't really accept that vote in the same manner. you don't need reasons attached to every vote in RVS, but that vote definetly needed one-
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Terata Goon
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yea, it seems i misread. i take that backIn post 104, Naomi-Tan wrote:
I thought I said I like to give read lists day 1 and switch to POE lists later on?In post 102, Terata wrote:Your first post stating that you won't/don't like giving reads lists d1, and that's the first thing you once you've caught up; a full readslist. Lol. I think that's majorly towny. I think Scum!Naomi would've been happy with the meta excuse that you like to avoid them early, but you doing anyway even if you don't have to meta-wise is towny-
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Terata Goon
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i never said i thought you were RVS voting because of who you voted. But it was closely phrased as one considering ur posts until then was basically "hi guys" or something, and there was nothing attached. That looks like an RVS, even though i know it couldn't have been, since you don't RVS vote a big wagon. That was my problem. You can tell me your reasoning if you had any, but that doesn't change that it looks bad to meIn post 115, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:
The problem is your assumptions. Instead of asking me why I'm scum reading Sheep, you assume that I was RVS voting. If you'd like to know why I voted for someone, just ask.In post 78, Terata wrote:
The way you voted the only wagon that you could actually have an opinion about and labeled your vote as...nothing. Looks to me like you just slipped it in there as a "lalala, im just RVS-voting, don't mind me". I either expect a serious vote on for example Sheep with some comment attached, with your suspicion and what YOU didn't like about him, or an obvious RVS vote on some1 that isn't a mainwagon or very active. This is in between and it pings me.In post 64, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:
What was awkward about the way I popped in?In post 62, Terata wrote:I do think the WAY lil popped in was slightly awkward tho.
VOTE: Lil Uzi Vert here is a start. Gn-
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Terata Goon
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Terata Goon
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Terata Goon
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- I call you scumIn post 158, Cooperative Sheep wrote:
It was a serious question asked in a mocking way, if he hadn't answered it would have been very serious - I leave it to you to classify that in your own joke range.In post 119, Naomi-Tan wrote:Okay so.. Let me ask you a simple question; Was your post in question a joke or other wise non-serious post that is NAI?
You swapped me after the pressure on me was relieved,In post 121, Terata wrote:Btw Sheep, if I for example Whiteknighted you as scum, what would i gain in then instantly swapping you to a scum lean a bit later after i resisted the wagon? doesn't that kinda negate the pocketing the whiteknighting as scum could've possibly gained?which makes sense in a scum concept of hoping the lynch goes through and you look good for being 'right'and shifting me to a lynch option for later also plays to that potential scum play.
Could you at least address the point where I called you a misrepper/liar for how you changed up what Lowell said and then attacked me over my reaction to something that wasn't said?In post 122, Fro99er wrote:No.
I don't play this "answer my questions game." If you think that makes me scum for it IDGAF. I don't sit here and do what people tell me to do. That's not how I play so get off your damn high horse with this "I'd like you to do this" bullcrap.
You've already shown me you'll give absurd logic with that avatar retort. I'm not going to go around in circles with you. It helps nobody.
Because I'd love to talk about that.
Vote: Frogger
- you say my upside as scum would be to have been 'right' with your flip
i didn't see the last "slip", but this i could maybe buy lol.-
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Terata Goon
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Terata Goon
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i think you should adapt Frogg's approach in this case, Sheep. Show us you can focus on something else than the one you're tunneling with shit thats boring to read. That will help both you and us more than reading whatever you're doing now, which is being salty at Frogg's annoying (to you) playstyle. Something scum and town could do, so we dont get any info.-
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Terata Goon
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i get all this. What i don't get is how i would get cred as scum after me pushing you and you flipping town, just because i was 'right' for a small amount of time in the very start of the day. Get me?In post 171, Cooperative Sheep wrote:I don't understand your reply there, here's the timeline - you arrive in the game and say this;
You then attack Uzi (one of my attackers) at this stage, you are effectively WKing me.In post 61, Terata wrote:I havent played with sheep b4 obv, but he strikes me as a person that would defend himself awkardly as either alignment, so while i think towns could be pinged by his weird wordings, i dont rly think its scummy.
Later on, the wagon on me dissolves - at that point you shift your read to a "might be scum" sort of read.
I say that the theory scum plan was to WK (which you did) and then, later, when you realize the wagon won't bull rush through it's viable to have me as a lynch option by seeing how maybe I'm scum (which you also did). That is a coherent comment which is as much of a slip as my last comment called a slip. If something looks weird it's because we're not talking cleanly to each other - not because it's a slip.-
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Terata Goon
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Terata Goon
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make a quick reads list on the people you have reads on with a sentence or 2 explaining each read, would help. I don't remember much of your reads except for Frogg and the WK stuffIn post 175, Cooperative Sheep wrote:
I'm sorry I'm boring - I'm not trying to be, and it's how I communicate.In post 172, Terata wrote:i think you should adapt Frogg's approach in this case, Sheep. Show us you can focus on something else than the one you're tunneling with shit thats boring to read. That will help both you and us more than reading whatever you're doing now, which is being salty at Frogg's annoying (to you) playstyle. Something scum and town could do, so we dont get any info.
It's page 7 and I've focused on quite a few people - who do you think I need to focus on that I haven't?
I agree that scum could do what Frogger is doing.. I also agree that town could, and it would be bad. Beyond the idea that town might not care to understand someone they're calling scum for bad logic - why is that, in your opinion, *my* issue and not *his and my* issue?-
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Terata Goon
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ok, i get what you meant now. Even if i don't think the pressure on the is all that relieved even now? but i get it.
and to the list answer. i dont see the "generally like" and "ok with" and "i find Hawk scummier" as explanations. Thats stale reads that i don't see the thought process for and cant evaluate-
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Terata Goon
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lol. ye. thats kind of the point of reading your list. idc what reads you have tbh, i read people based of WHY they have them solely.In post 183, Cooperative Sheep wrote:If you need an expansion on any of those reads, let me know.-
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Terata Goon
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Terata Goon
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@ECmich
Do you not think i believe that initial read on Sheep about playstyle? If i do believe it, why wouldn't i out that info i believe in to help you guys in reading him?
With regards to my swap on Sheep, fine if you believe swapping reads is a viable tell, even if i think it's the complete opposite that's true. Scum tries super hard to make their progressions slow and well recieved. But thats ur read so eh-
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Terata Goon
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Terata Goon
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Terata Goon
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agreed it's terrible. But sadly i've seen players who just focused on that stuff even though it's as often done from townIn post 215, Fro99er wrote:
These are exactly the type of manipulative questions scum asks.In post 209, Cooperative Sheep wrote:
So you agree it's scummy not to try to understand someone?In post 196, Fro99er wrote:Probably scum for not even attempting to understand my play. Just shouting MISREP and YOU DIDNT READ
"Oh you can accuse that of me but don't you agree you are doing the same?" As in ... look how much of a hypocrite this guys is.
Fun fact, town can be hypocrites. Even then, I'm not being hypocritical. I am understanding your play, despite you suggesting I am not.
This guy is literally resorting to:
"Frog doesn't read"
"Frog is hypocritical"
"Frog misreps"
"Frog lies"
as his argument against me.-
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Terata
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Terata Goon
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Terata Goon
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Terata Goon
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you like him but you don't lean either way? which one is itIn post 239, Hawk wrote:Okay I'm at work right now but I get off in an hour. Today you guys have added 5 pages of content that has put me here.
Frog is town
Sheep is flailing and using buzzwords to death maybe because they're new? (white Knight, misrep, etc.)
Terata looks town from his interaction with Sheep and I was equally as confused reading through Sheep's posts involving why he would get town cred for WKing and some outstanding circular logic by sheep.
AJ is town trying to interject some line of thought into a chaos of fluff since for 5 pages it feels like Sheep and frog have had the same exact fucking arguement. Also all this happened today. jeesus guys.
I like ECM for his entrance but it really doesn't ping me one way or the other.
Naomi is fine not pinging me one way or the other I can understand her logic on her reads and while I appreciate the effort it's NAI.
Here in a minute I'll go through and quote and answer some questions I know we're asked of me so give me a second I'm doing this from mobile.
After that I'd like to point out all the problems I have with sheep and frogs argument that's spanned all day today and added 5 pages of fluff.-
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Terata Goon
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towny responseIn post 244, Hawk wrote:
Okay okay yes liked is usually a town associative word for me thats why I clarified with doesn't ping me one way or the other. I guess my use of like here means even if it's just subconscious I lean him more town than scum but still very null. Like I said I'm at work just now getting off forgive me I'm trying to do this from mobile lolIn post 243, Terata wrote:liked = towny in my book. You had fun reading it, so that's what you're gonna mean when you say you like something. noted..-
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Terata Goon
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It would help lots if you expanded on why. You're answering stuff that doesn't matter as much about ur own gameplay instead of flushing out your reads. Noone is gonna listen to your reads if they don't know the reasoningIn post 250, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:Sheep is so obvious opportunistic scum it hurts.-
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Terata Goon
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Terata Goon
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My Naomi read comes almost only from her strong and lengthy response to Sheep which annoyed her, the emotion seemed real. It was super towny.
Frogg read is more from overall play and engagement, without a disconnect in emotion when he's been annoyed. Hasn't felt fake.
AJ read is from how he spoke of different things in his opening post, and then he got to his important reads and he said them super compact and confidently in like 2 lines and began it with "while we're at it", it it flowed well.-
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Terata Goon
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idk tbh, a lot of people i townread are either townreading him or starting to retract the scumread. So i take that into account, even though i don't really agree with your thought that him being in daychat would change his play very much. Players doesn't usually use daychat THAT much even though it's very good to do so. Though maybe it's different on this site and people post everything through there, but i don't see Sheep doing that. Players who are awkward like him with bad logic, is gonna look bad as either alignment in thay way imo.In post 277, Naomi-Tan wrote:yeah im in the same boat with confident town reads, but very little non-towns. Whats your thoughts on sheep right now terata?-
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Terata Goon
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Terata Goon
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this post reads very scripted/forced to me, and the only time he goes into a little bit of a deeper analysis is when he's comparing something to a past game, which is something that's easy to talk about when you're scum because it's something you believe in and can give your true thoughts on. Also looking for contradictions/unexplained progressions more than i'd like. I think that's sometimes a mafia trait too, because it's a simple thing to look for/push on.In post 282, ChaosOmega wrote:fro99er:
Just wanted a response from you so I could engage with WhemeStar more. I assumed your push was genuine, and it seems like I was right. Scroll down this post to see a continuation of this thought!In post 123, Fro99er wrote:You are curious to see my own take on my own push?
I think sheep is scum. I see zero reason for sheep to come in and make a jump in logic like that just to say something like "is it going to be difficult to work with you" when I got absolutely zero of that from lowell's post.
It was purely a jump in logic to throw shade.
In post 123, Fro99er wrote:As for the slip, I can see what gerry is talking about. I try to find those kinds of slips EVERY game, and Chaos I know you do at least at times as you did in MAFICEPTION with Pepto (which i then seized on and tied Titus to that slip so we for sure had two scum nailed down from it). I find slip resistance (as Titus did) more scummy than pointing out a slip, in general, although it's not a hard and fast tell.
Yes, I look for slips, and yes, I get the jist of why people think this about Sheep. It just doesn't read that way to me. The Pepto one you're referring to from Mafiaception was blatant. He voted a big wagon stressing a bunch of caution, got called on his weakness, and responded he doesn't want a mislynch. Definition of a slip. The Sheep slip is just parsing something a certain way. I read it as "Oh, you're confirmed town? Well, your highness, you should place a vote so the rest of the town can follow you." It's not similar to the Pepto one at all to me, at least.In post 127, Fro99er wrote:Here's Chaos pointing out a slip: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p7396328
"Like he knows Mario is town"
That's what a I get from reading Sheeps post is that it looks "like he knows Gerry is town"
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WhemeStar:
So this has been proven wrong. frogger believes the strength of his push on Sheep. Since you think the push is weak, does this change your read of frogger at all?In post 63, WhemeStar wrote:I think the push on sheep is weak, and frog made it seem like it was strong to get reactions out of everyone
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Hawk:
Is LUV still a bigger scumread for you at this point?In post 246, Hawk wrote:
At the time I was leaning him yespecially. Now yeah pretty much since all his posts till now have been the definition of insanity.In post 109, ChaosOmega wrote: Hawk: Do you currently have a scumread of Sheep?
In your short readlist before this, you said frog was town and Sheep was scummy. Does frog not gain suspicion for being a main contributor to what you called "5 pages of fluff"?In post 239, Hawk wrote:After that I'd like to point out all the problems I have with sheep and frogs argument that's spanned all day today and added 5 pages of fluff.
Scummiest post of the game thus far to me-
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Terata Goon
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But i explained exactly why i thought so. You don't think i believe what im saying or is it just the specific word scripted you don't think fits. I see scripted as a synonym to made up, which is what mafia's posts are when they're trying to "solve"In post 291, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:
I think him calling it scripted is what's bugging me. It doesn't read that way to me.In post 290, Fro99er wrote:Can you put your finger on what?
I agreed with the vote, FWIW-
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Terata Goon
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thanks!In post 287, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:
It's fairly simple really. He's using every little opportunity he can to jump on a wagon now or in the future and seed plant by discrediting.In post 275, Terata wrote:
It would help lots if you expanded on why. You're answering stuff that doesn't matter as much about ur own gameplay instead of flushing out your reads. Noone is gonna listen to your reads if they don't know the reasoningIn post 250, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:Sheep is so obvious opportunistic scum it hurts.
It starts off quite early with his 18 where he takes Lowell's RVS vote as him being hard to work with as town because the wagon on WS was slightly larger.Doesn't even consider that me and Lowell may have played with each other outside of this game and his vote was a means of saying hi. Just assumes that Lowell will be hard to cooperate with. I also don't like this assumption because it implies not only he should be trusted but the people on the wagon should've been as well.
His 33 where he essentially calls Frog's argument about the intent of his questions towards Lowell trivial with his avatar retort.
In his 113, he discredits Naomi's null read on him by calling it white knighting. If you all go back and read the post of Naomi's he linked, she isn't defending him, she's questioning Gerry based on what she thinks Sheep meant and how Sheep reacted to the accusation. Naomi is not coming to his aid here, she's inquiring whether or not Gerry and Hawk are joking about the basis of their push on Sheep.
He says he wants to talk with Frog I'm assuming to clarify whatever issues he's still having him but rather than giving him the chance to hear him, he immediately casts a vote for Frog in 158. Strongly points to me like he already thinks Frog is scum and is just going to continue to provoke him in order to unnecessarily justify his vote.
223 he just jumps on the Hawk wagon after it's clear he's not really null or town reading Frog or even AJ.
i think the reasoning is pretty towny toom especially the bolded part connected to your own feelings that you felt at the time he mentioned it.-
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Terata Goon
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It's all depending on circumstances. It's the amount of the posting like that compared to the amount of them solving in other ways. It's what has happend apart from that in the game that influences when it's reasonable to talk more about meta. It's how much the meta seems to matter in the read itself and how helpful the meta seems to be. It's what kind of playstyle the one doing it has (which ofc i can't take into account as much). It's also a lot of gutread from my part. ANd loads of stuff i can't even think of right now.In post 286, Naomi-Tan wrote:
how do you tell the difference between a Red or Green motive when dealing with that?In post 283, Terata wrote:Also looking for contradictions/unexplained progressions more than i'd like. I think that's sometimes a mafia trait too-
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i don't even know why you're asking such general questions when a more specific one would help you much more.In post 306, Terata wrote:
It's all depending on circumstances. It's the amount of the posting like that compared to the amount of them solving in other ways. It's what has happend apart from that in the game that influences when it's reasonable to talk more about meta. It's how much the meta seems to matter in the read itself and how helpful the meta seems to be. It's what kind of playstyle the one doing it has (which ofc i can't take into account as much). It's also a lot of gutread from my part. ANd loads of stuff i can't even think of right now.In post 286, Naomi-Tan wrote:
how do you tell the difference between a Red or Green motive when dealing with that?In post 283, Terata wrote:Also looking for contradictions/unexplained progressions more than i'd like. I think that's sometimes a mafia trait too-
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Wheme, you said early you liked Frog for overblowing the "weak" (as you called it) push on Sheep and searching for reactions. Did your read on Frogg change anything when you got to know Frogg's push was geniune and not simply a push for reactions. As you said he's still a townread i would assume no? so did he do something else you liked or did it still deserve a townread from you for pushing something you called "weak"?-
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i THINK this is towny, but it might be NAI if he's good with tone, so small points here. Rest of the ISO is baaaaaad (i know you got it) thoIn post 72, WhemeStar wrote:Fire gimme a medal for solving the game already, thanks.-
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Terata Goon
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and this is me picking at your question: did it? and why/why not? what expect would you have expected from a scum without a theory?In post 317, Naomi-Tan wrote:
It was me picking at your theory in case it didn't hold up.In post 309, Terata wrote:
i don't even know why you're asking such general questions when a more specific one would help you much more.In post 306, Terata wrote:
It's all depending on circumstances. It's the amount of the posting like that compared to the amount of them solving in other ways. It's what has happend apart from that in the game that influences when it's reasonable to talk more about meta. It's how much the meta seems to matter in the read itself and how helpful the meta seems to be. It's what kind of playstyle the one doing it has (which ofc i can't take into account as much). It's also a lot of gutread from my part. ANd loads of stuff i can't even think of right now.In post 286, Naomi-Tan wrote:
how do you tell the difference between a Red or Green motive when dealing with that?In post 283, Terata wrote:Also looking for contradictions/unexplained progressions more than i'd like. I think that's sometimes a mafia trait too-
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Terata Goon
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sheeping isn't cooperation tho. the "COOP"-part implies there's TWO parties COOPERATING back and forth. 1 sheeping another isn't cooperation if you're not adding anything (i guess you're technically adding to the situation that you agree with what was said initally, but that isn't an effective way of cooperating anyway).
Tip to sheep: When you've written up a post, take out all the quotes you can, and shorten it down to like 1 paragraph of Summary for others to read. Will help a lot-
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Terata Goon
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Wheme, you really think who was on Sheep at the time is the by far most Alignment telling thing that's happend so far? you have no read on other things like actual game-solving done?
WHat did you think about lil's case on sheep a page ago or so. What do you think about me. and what did you think about my #311 about you?-
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Terata Goon
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this is not a towny response to pressure. Strong emotion without really wolf reading him, just wanting to prove him wrong and get him on another path. This last sentence especially shows he was justIn post 371, ECMitchell wrote:
Calling absolute bull on this one. Show me the receipts.In post 366, Lowell wrote:It's not your level of participation. I'd be a hypocrite for calling out a lurker just for lurking. The problem with you is that you show up and offer nothingbut an attack on another lurker/quasi-lurker.It looks like you're avoiding conflict intentionally.
The only person I've "attacked" for filler so far has been Gerroat. I quoted all of WhemeStar's initial posts to prove against their statement that they already explained their vote against Hawk in the first couple of pages—which they really didn't.
Also, the bold text in your quote suggests you see me as a lurker. Care to elaborate on that? Since I've been added as a replacement I've been on top of this game fully.
Now about avoiding conflict, I have two responses to that:
- I'm not. I don't exactly see how calling out two players (Fro99er, Naomi) for their play styles and persisting that a player justifies their vote (WhemeStar) constitutes "avoiding conflict."
- If I was, what exactly would your point be? Avoiding conflict isn't necessarily a bad thing, particularly this early in the game. Right now we're still about deliberation and facilitating discussion. I don't have to be going at people like Fro99er is Cooperative Sheep to advance the game in this stage.
Okay,nowI'm really leaving for the day. Just had to respond to that one.responding, and not doing anything active in terms of solving the player he lashed out on. Simple defense isn't really something towns get super engaged in unless they're really forced to IME, and even in that they constantly consider the pushing person's alignment more than i see this post doing.-
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Terata Goon
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i read this before responding to his outlash and im glad for that, so i don't have to reiterate so much. Good post.In post 372, Fro99er wrote:Here's my big case-y-wall-case thing. I hate walls for the most part, so this makes me a "giant fucking hypocrite" (remember that phrase)
There's several problems I have with Chaos' play so far. Some are more meta-based, but some are more evidence based in this game.
Chaos opens up in 54 voting Wheme, and asking him what he thinks about my pressure on sheep. It strikes me as odd. Why specifically ask Wheme, and why specifically about my pressure on sheep? I get that my pressure on sheep was the big thing happening at the time, but chaos doesn't give his own thoughts on it because, as he replies to me in 59 "I don't think they'd be super helpful." Yet he expects Wheme's thoughts to be super helpful or something?
Also, Chaos mentions he's not about the sheep wagon, but does not state why. It's an attempt to disrail the wagon without having to put in the work of doing so.
In 59, chaos continues
He pressures Wheme about why wheme is suspicious of people sheeping me on sheep, the townread on sheep, and the townread on me, as if it's some sort of contradiction. But Wheme actually replies in 63So, frog is town for the push on Sheep. This would lead me to think that you think his reasoning is good/genuine/some other good words. If this is the case, why be suspicious of other people agreeing and why townread Sheep? If this is not the case, why townread frogger?
That's a fair response, and jives with how he could see both sheep and myself as town, yet suspect others on the sheep wagon.I think the push on sheep is weak, and frog made it seem like it was strong to get reactions out of everyone
But here's where chaos gets manipulative. In post 109 Chaos asks me for my take on my own push on Sheep. Chaos has played with me twice before, once in my perfect scum win in BEES, and once in our perfect town win in MAFIACEPTION. So he knows I don't fuck around with my pushes. So I give my take that I'm serious about my push (which Chaos knew from meta, and if he's scum he also knows I'm town making a genuine push).
(I'll have more to say about 109 in a minute, but I want to continue on this line of thought around Wheme)
In 282 Chaos says
He confirms he knew that my push was genuine, so this is clearly an attempt to turn this around on either Wheme or myself, which he does later in the same postI assumed your push was genuine, and it seems like I was right.
This is manipulative because if Wheme answers "yes, my read has changed so now I read frog as scum" or if wheme answers "No" then Chaos can come back with "then your original reason for townreading frogger for a weak push on sheep was a lie, because you townread him anyway". Manipulative as hell. It pushes the suspicion elsewhere, while chaos doesn't actually do any work around the sheep wagon himself.So this (wheme's post 63) has been proven wrong. frogger believes the strength of his push on Sheep. Since you think the push is weak, does this change your read of frogger at all?
Here's where I come back to chaos' post 109. He answer's Naomi's question to him with a combo of 1 and 3, meaning a combo of "I don't think sheep slipped" and "I don't have strong feelings on sheep." My issue is he's expecting everyone else to have feelings around myself and sheep, yet he can't provide any himself. He just want to create Chaos (pun intended) around the sheep/frog thing, while sidelining what he thinks of me and sheep himself.
There's also the "slip" stuff which Gerry pointed out and I agreed with, and Chaos actively defended against. That was a second,more indirect attempt at derailing the sheep wagon. We disagree about the slip, and this argument won't get us anywhere, but I don't believe this gels with my meta of Chaos using the slip in MAFIACEPTION, even if he says its different. I was town there, and I'm town here, and I still like to push possible slips when I see its possible there was one. For chaos to dismiss it so quickly, given what he did in MAFIACEPTION and how easy it was for other scum to dismiss it so quickly, is just another little point.
The clincher is his post 341 where he accuses Terata of doing the same thing he did around questioning Wheme. Yes, terata did question Wheme, about the exact same thing, and Terata even called Chaos out in 283 for saying Chaos' post where he then pushes back on Wheme now that I've said my push on sheep was real. But the difference is in their tone. It's going to sound really fucking dumb, but the tone of how chaos did it vs. the tone in which Terata did it is miles apart. Here's the difference:
Chaos:
Terata:So this has been proven wrong. frogger believes the strength of his push on Sheep. Since you think the push is weak, does this change your read of frogger at all?
Terata asks hers in a way that uses lighter, less accusatory tone for example "when you got to know Frogg's push was genuine" (use of the word genuine), "As you said he's still a townread i would assume no?" (benefit of the doubt), "so did he do something else you liked or did it still deserve a townread from you" (gives Wheme the option of still townreading me for something else, deserve a townread is a much more engaging tone).Wheme, you said early you liked Frog for overblowing the "weak" (as you called it) push on Sheep and searching for reactions. Did your read on Frogg change anything when you got to know Frogg's push was geniune and not simply a push for reactions. As you said he's still a townread i would assume no? so did he do something else you liked or did it still deserve a townread from you for pushing something you called "weak"?
Chaos was "So this has been proven wrong" (Wheme was wrong), "does this change your read of frogger at all?" (comapared to terata's does frog still deserve a townread and maybe are there other reasons)
IDK...it's just tone. I don't really remember Chaos taking this tone in BEES or MAFIACEPTION as town, but that's speculation on my part until I re-read.
Finally, he then accuses terata of being either scum or bad town at the end of his post 341 because she did the same thing he did. But I really find it scummy when someone is like "oh you accused me of this and then you did it yourself so you are a hypocrite." NEWSFLASH: town can be hypocrites. Happens all the damn time. And it's a really easy point for scum to latch on to, because they don't have to do any work. Just yell HYPOCRITE at the top of their lungs. As Chaos basically did withthis would make you seem like a giant fucking hypocrite
What i again don't like with his way of responding is that he lashes out hard with logic to condemn me and still ends up with the conclusion of "bad town or scum", which is basically still saying absolutely 0 about my alignment. Scum tends to do that, lashing out in an attempt to defend themselves without really trying to determine the alignment of the one who accuses them. I feel really good about Chaos being scum right now, and i don't usually feel good about my scum reads d1. FeelsGoodMan-
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Terata Goon
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Terata Goon
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Terata Goon
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