Newbie 1012 - Game over

[Shadow Dancer]

/confirm

[Shadow Dancer]

Hi, all of you.

I am Shadow Dancer, you can refer to me as Shadow or just SD, if you please, and I am supposed to be your IC in this game. I have yet to figure out what exactly that'll mean Excedrin already gave you the relevant links to the wiki, use it! If you have further questions, just ask and the more experienced players in here will answer you to the best of their knowledge. Son't bother asking about scum tactcics, though, the most positive response you might receive may be that I just ignore you...

Besides that I go along with Enigma's request for avatar pictures. Get one if you haven't already.

Good luck and have fun.

[Shadow Dancer]

1. GMT+1
2. IC , look into my wiki.
3. Vanilla townie is the best role, it actually requires

skill

to play. Playing scum is just boring most of the time.

Noticing your answer to 3.) IGMEOY!

[Shadow Dancer]

@Mod: May I ask for a Prod on Ood? Or may we start the game without his confirmation? It's practically begun already anyway.

[Shadow Dancer]

Thanks, Excedrin

Damn it still no dice

Just then:

vote silver

Just to make clear who is the alpha wolf here.

Hmm... Waggoning an SE anyway seems like a good idea to start D1 with.

[Shadow Dancer]

Wow, that waggon was... Successful

Wouldn't wonder if we find two scum on it (at least that's a fine theory to work with IMO).

unvote. FoS Dikov

for putting silver at l-1 with horrible justification and without announcing it.
I want to hear his justification before I vote him.

vote Enigma

instead.

He might be our second scum.

[Shadow Dancer]

FoS: Shadow Dancer

For fingering Dickov and not having the balls to put him at L-1 because he is afraid it might label him as scum.

And for spelling his name wrong too.

Don't you think I would know how to spell his name if we were scum partners?!

And I said clearly that I am willing to vote. But the skyrocketing silver waggon makes me think that people in this game might be both a bit too trigger happy and a bit too thoughtless. Why risk an accidental quicklynch by some one who might just be an overstrained newb? That would be just horribly bad.

[Shadow Dancer]

I ask you, would I really be that stupid to do that?

Look! I am too scummy to be scum.
Argument not exepted due to WIFOM alarm going off.

[Shadow Dancer]

Also, Finger of Suspicion to Bhavit as well for hijacking the moral high ground and forcing people to defend themselves. You are fingered dude.

FoSing some one for ... what?!
It is called

scum hunting

, dude!
Makes me wonder why you obviously do not want to defend yourself. Maybe because you are scum, made a major slip and now do not know

how

?

[Shadow Dancer]

[...]I will

unvote

but expect an OMGUS for whoever votes for me.[...]

Damn, I almost read over that. More interested in discuraging people from voting you then actually using your vote to find or pressure scum?

[Shadow Dancer]

Hey! I couldnt understand what you are trying to say. Please explain.

Read this.
Or maybe it is because I wrote "exepted" (whatever stupid shit that could mean ) when I meant "accepted"

[Shadow Dancer]

On Day 1 itself, what information can

truely

be gathered about your surrounding players? Only speculative guessing at best.

I'm not a fan for Day 1 Lynching because it's bad for town to me. We're already gonna get raped by the mafia it doesn't help if we rape our own on such inconclusive evidence.

I'm not a fan of Day 1 Lynching because of the gaming aspect of it as well. I can imagine other fellow new players in this game, after waiting for 3-5 days to get into their first game, they die by day 1 lynch. It's heartbreaking, regardless of whether one is mafia or not.

Yes, I know, I've read the wiki and expect to be told off for being a mafiosi as

it's a mafia tell to vote for no lynch on day 1 bla bla bla

. Pardon the OMGUS voting because that's all I have in my arsenal of defence there is just no plausible way I can actually make a calculated and logical vote on who I think is mafia at this phase of the game.

That being said, inb4youtalktoomuchyoumustbenervousthereforemafia
and inb4onlythemafiavotenolynchday1 or inb4youremafiacauseyouravatarsaysmafia

Well... That makes me more to wanna lynch you. If you are not scum you at least admit being useless. If it is all speculative guessing, why not blindly speculate that it is... you?

In other words: Do not make self destructing arguments.

[Shadow Dancer]

Wow, this game's active...

[Shadow Dancer]

Being scum partners does not necessary mean you know how to spell your partner's name....

You said you were willing to vote. You still haven't committed to voting him. And hes not even close to L-1 now.
Yet you maintain your vote on me without reasons.

Votes are the strongest powers townies have. If you think he is scummy, use it on him. Else explain with reasons why you find me scummy.

I haven't even caught up so far... I won't change my vote as long as I am not up to date... Just wait for half an hour or so...

[Shadow Dancer]

Accusing people of lurking just because you managed to fill two pages without their participation is lame at best. Pure diversion, IMO.

[Shadow Dancer]

But you did that already. No need to go into detail again.

[Shadow Dancer]

bhavit vs. ray looks strange... Definitely something to keep an exe on.

However,

unvote. vote dickov

is what is to do now.

[Shadow Dancer]

I have a question for everybody

How would you react if you were at a L-1 situation

It is in your and every one's best interest to give a satisfying explanation for why whichever behavious other players considered scummy was driven by a townie mentality.
- Be honest.
- Defend agaist the arguments brought forth against you.
- Proceed scumhunting.
And convince us you are town, if everything goes well.

[Shadow Dancer]

2. Lynch all lurkers?

Difficult question. There are lurkers of different kind. In general lurkers are more liekyl scum, but there are many different reasons to lurk. I cannot see lurkers as a serious issue so far. So as long as there is no condcrete case to discuss about I would like to adjourn this discussion.

2. Lynch all liars?

Yes. Definitely. At least in 99% of all cases. There are no reasons or motivations for townies to lie. Lies and yontradictions are IMO the hardest scumtells there are, only rivaled by cop investigations.

[Shadow Dancer]

Your points are valid. I just do not consider them particularly strong at this point in time, especially considering that both of them are newbs. However, I have seen two players falling into some kind of strange and overtunneled dialogue three or four times in my previous games and it always turned out that one of them was scum. So keeping an eye on the developement of that discussion is definitely worth it.

[Shadow Dancer]

This game is unusually active so far. I hope it keeps that way.

@name: You do not need to announce for every single person in this game that you have an eye on him, I assume that you are doing that any way, given you were townie.

[Shadow Dancer]

Damn, you are hyperactive I'll post later this evening.

[Shadow Dancer]

I've seen it done that way on other mafia games on other forums. If bugs people to much for me to say "IGMEOY" I won't do it.

IGMEOY Shadow Dancer (just kidding )

You should not do things just because you see some one else do it. Especially not if you do not understand why the other one is doping it or even do not know if the other one is doing it for any reasonable reason (learning from others is not trying to copy them but understand what they do and decide if it fits you and is useful in a given situation you encounter).

The point is: Telling some one "OGMEOY" is a way of pressuring some one by telling him/her "I have an eye on

you

and specifically you and any slip you might commit won't escape my attention."
First of that attempt obviously hardly works always on every one in every situation, different people tend to handle different kinds of stress in different ways.
And second telling some one straight to the face that you have him under observation might defeat the purpose by increasing that players level of attention towards his/her own play and thus exactly prevent the slip you were looking for.
In a nutshell telling virtually any one in a game "IGMEOY" basically defeats any purpose you might have for doing so and in general everything you do in a mafia game should fit a purpose (i.e. finding scum as town, covering your tracks as scum) and it is also assumed by other players that you have intentions for the things you do (though you might not even be fully aware of your own intentions).

[Shadow Dancer]

Let me ask you guys, how much real evidence is there against me? Or is it just assumptions. I know this game is based of fos' but picking me is just bad.

And also, if I was in a l-1 situation, I would just panic, like I usually do.

Wont be able to post for a few hours

"DON'T PANIC!"

Some one should write "The Hitchhikers Guide to Mafia"

Of course this game is about assumptions. Your goal is to make better assumptions and convince other players of your ones.

[Shadow Dancer]

Well, if you lynch me, then its your loss, which makes it easier for the Mafia to win. I don't want to lose on my first game. I suggest we discuss this day for as long as needed to get a confirmed scum.

actually... even if your town it's not necessarily a loss (unless it's MYLO or LYLO) as you being confirmed townie gives us info. Instead of worrying about what other people are thinking of you and trying to prove your townie... try to find a scum.

Not a bad point. As (vanilla) townie you are for the most part one thing: expandable. Use that to your advantage, treat it as your most precious ability, if the situation calls for it. If you can lure out scum in some way by sacrificing yourself, you are playing to your wi condition and can prove very useful to town. (Do

not

treat this in any imaginable way as an invitation to encounter in any kind of devil-may-care suicide play.)
Always keep in mind: You still win with your faction, even if you are dead at the end of the game. Nobody is really harmed or killed in a game of mafia. And it is always just business.

[Shadow Dancer]

Let me ask you guys, how much real evidence is there against me? Or is it just assumptions. I know this game is based of fos' but picking me is just bad.

No eal evidence can ever be found in this game. All you could find is little mistakes. And you have done one already. We have a strong evidence only against you. So theres a chance for you to be a mafia.

Don't be carried away by the idea of singular scumtells. Those are defective and risky indicators most of the time. Always look at apparent slips in the context of that players overall play, find connections and behaviour patterns and always go by both theories that it was town play/a town slip or scum play/a scum slip to find out which is the more convincing and more likely explanation. Minimizing your own errors may prevent all of us from following a wrong track.

[Shadow Dancer]

Shadow Dancer

You said "Waggoning an SE seems like a good idea" but there are two SE's in this game why did you choose Silverbullet over Enigma?

Look at silver's avatar. Done? OK. So now look at my avatar. Also done? Now read my comment on that vote again. Also done? If you still don't get it, activate your sense of humour now.

Co-incidentally, Raymond myself and more importantly Enigma (as well) voted for Silverbullet on your wagon, convenient correlation or mere coincidence?

Do you have a point here? What do

I

have to do with others jumping on "my waggon" and their reasons to do so? I am sure you know your own reasons better than any on else at least.

You wanted to hear my justification for voting silverbullet? It's a poor reason but it's genuine OMGUS but now that I see the power of a vote, it's much too powerful to use on mere OMGUS reasons.

As it seems you saw at least the power of your vote to dicourage others from voting you...

I however would like to see your justification for

bhavit vs. ray looks strange... Definitely something to keep an exe on.

However,

unvote. vote dickov

is what is to do now.

Your post #59 was just bad in differnt ways that have been laid out to you. You haven't adressed that so far. I am generally unwilling to change my vote as long as a player I am currently voting is in some way or another reluctant to adress my comments in a way that I consider satifying and genuine.
I do not particularly like post #64, either, but I see that more as understandable newbie uncertainty right now.

[Shadow Dancer]

Alright, I'm going to say this and leave it at this because I can see this turning into a irrelevant debate. First of all, I WASN'T just copying someone else. I knew exactly what it meant. Apparently, in other games I've seen it was used a little differently. It WASN'T to tell them "I have my eye on ONLY you" or that "you're one of my top suspects". It was merely used to say "you seem suspicious, I gonna keep watching you to see if you do anything else suspicious". That's it. But since here it apparently means something else I'm going to refrain from using it. I'm going to stop here and keep the focus on the game.

Again: The point is, no matter what your purpose on telling players "IGMEOY" is, any purpose is defeated by telling it to multiple or eve most players alike. Keep your eyes open, but focus your pressure.

[Shadow Dancer]

who me?

Not specifically. Was directed to (almost) every one.
Don't get me wrong, that is actually a really good thing and gives me good feeling about this game. Also it will prevent scum from getting an easy ride as lurkers.

[Shadow Dancer]

As you might have realized I prefer serial posts alot to huge WOT posts. Helps me to focus on one thought, post it and proceed instead of getting lost in a WOT...

Sorry for mainly posting theory stuff today, but I hope it will help.
There are defintely some pretty interesting and intense discussions going on in the meantime that require further analysis.
I might have little time until Sunday though, so do not expect much deep thought of me the next two days.

[Shadow Dancer]

So many new posts...

Sorry, under these circumstances I have to announce

V/LA until monday

, I see no realistic chance to have time to catch up on all of that in any halfway sattisfying fassion (analyses and stuff).

[Shadow Dancer]

Far fetched reasoning surely, but you can't blame me for trying.

Actually - I can blame you. Openly telling it's all fluff does not make it less fluff. And that you realize it and still decide to post in nontheless evokes doubts about your motivation in me.
Anyway, I'll go a bit more into detail, because I still consider it likely that you just do not realize, how badly you're arguing.

I noticed the wolf straight away but I don't buy it.

Firstly, during the random voting stage, it's the tendency for players to try and weaken the justification for their voting as much as they can in order to reduce the level of attention on them. If it looks like they have an agenda on other players, people might question them instead.

You don't buy a nonsense reason because you'd expect a ... nonsense reason? What?

Your

vote however disclaimed its

randomness

in the random voting stage by virtue of you including further justification for your reason to vote "against an SE player" and further suspicion is cast when the OTHER SE player rides along your vote.
That is why I have shortlisted you

and

Enigma

along with Bhavit in my circle of terror. However, if either one of you can be cleared of suspicion in my mind, I will herald it as an anomaly and continue discussions without the idea that

both

of you are mafia.

Fact is: Newbs newb do scummy things, newbs slip. newbs often play very badly in their first game, wasn't different with me, for me as IC applying pressure on an SE first is the most reasonable thing to do. Both to show you newbs how to handle votes and pressure on you and whatever else evolves from that and to really put pressure on an SE early, because he is more unlikely to slip on his own on D1.
I do not say that is a particularly strong reason to vote, but definitely much better than your average RVS vote.
And silver by chance happened to be a juicy titbit with his avatar. Basically knew

he

'd be my RV after seeing it the first time.

So, yeah, I made a random vote, I even

had

a (non-nonsense) reason for it. What of all this seems scummy to you?
And now comes the the real bogus:

Some one else

placing a vote on the same person

after me

and conincidentally being an SE makes me more suspicious in some way? This is not a valid argument at all and will never be, simply because it completely defies any logic.

Regarding #59, all I can ask of you is that you don't apply the standard of a seasoned player to every player just because you are one. I genuinely did not at that point understand what my voting for silverbullet would result in and had I known, I wouldn't have done it.

Think about it, if I was indeed the mafia, would I intentionally draw so much attention to myself during the lynching stage when the chance of a mislych is 77.78%? The only justification for the action is an appeal to ignorance which you may choose to accept or ignore.

I do not accept neither "I am newb" nor WIFOM as valid arguments, sorry. Of course you are newb, of course you make mistakes, we all do. But I axpect from you to learn and to explain honestly why you made your mistakes.
Your answer looks evasive to me, which makes me think you may be scum and for that reason cannot come up with a genuine explanation.

Furthermore, keeping your vote on me after I have attacked you shows to me that you may be uncomfortable with the level of attention you're receiving from me (and I don't blame you) and it also shows that instead of using your vote to hunt mafia, you are instead using it as a defence (similar to my OMGUS voting initially) which shows perhaps that you may already know who the mafia is and why it would be

detrimental

to hunt them.

Ehhh... Yeah... Sure,

keeping

my vote on

you

automatically makes it OMGUS...
This is not the first time that you explicitely perceive votes mainly as a means to discurage other people's voting.

This

is not a town mindset.

[Shadow Dancer]

It's good though because currently because of an "imagined" scumslip, you're leading the lynch board. To me personally, I wouldn't go as far as to say you're not mafia, but you definitely don't deserve the fingers and fists of love from others because of your "scumslip".

@Dickov: I'll go into that scumslip thing later, just for now: You think he is not mafia, yet still you think that it is a good think he is the leading waggon (and thus distracting attantion away from you)? Opportunistic. Scum. Mindset.

[Shadow Dancer]

@Dickov With 9 players in the game there is a 33% chance that one of the mafia is one of y'all that has already been accused. It may not seem like much to go on right now, but it's ONLY day 2 (i think). We can always retract our vote. So I don't feel like we're taking a risk at all. We're just trying to provoke discussion. My vote still stands.

Wrong math. Actually it's 33% that one of the three is

one specific

mafia. Chances for at least one of them three being any scum is 58,333... %. (Just group players, you get Sum(6..8)/Sum(1..8) as solution)

[Shadow Dancer]

[...]
Does Mafia really need to do much more on day 1? From my basic understanding of the game, Mafia is more likely to be a active lurker (i.e. Enigma and Shadow Dancer) as opposed to an inactive one (lollero, Koreanwonderboy and yourself). You've unvoted me and I'm grateful for that, but who do you suspect most right now? Care to share?

I don't want to comment on all your stuff, though, you really need to work on your arguments...
However, I need to demand now: Please define the term "active lurker" and what specifically makes me one.

[Shadow Dancer]

Sorry, but I also have to point this out:

__

2 mafia

_ = 22.22% chance of being lynched as mafia =/= 33% as you mentioned.
9 townsfolk

Being lynched

as mafia (as opposed to

lynching mafia

).
I see almost every single one of your posts coming from a scum POV, focussed on not being suspected not being voted, not being lynched.
(Beware! rather retorical question coming now) I wonder where that comes from.

[Shadow Dancer]

Hehe... Enigma is also struggling to keep up with this game...

Somehow Dickov mada a jumpstart in scumhunting on p8... If I just had not that strong feeling of an underlying scum mentality in his earlier posts I'd give him the benefit of the doubt...

First let me begin with silver. He hides himself behind what I guess is an attempt at a humorous way with words, trying to be poetic in nature.

eeer... What? Poetic nature?

I'll do some ISO reading and stuff like that and then get a good night's sleep, hopefully that'll help me making my mind up about things until tomorrow.

[Shadow Dancer]

Oh, please, one thing: Do not post your own comments

inside

the quote tags. That is, if you want to make a point and me to realize it.

[Shadow Dancer]

I find most of andrew's reasoning rather horrible so far. And he is not a newb.
Calling out a newb for asking the mod unnecessary questions is not scum hunting, it's an attempt in newb framing. A very clumsy attempt, though.

[Shadow Dancer]

Given we make up one third of the player base, it is likely that at one of us could be scum, maybe even two.

Yeah, the same 58.333... % I already calculated for one scum among us. Eliminating me that leaves us with ~46.4% (13/28) that one of you two is scum and just 8.33...% (~7.14% eliminating me) that both scum are among us experienced players... Not very likely, searching newb scum is a promissing strategy. And so far I haven't found anything clearly scummy about any of you... And my plan to abuse RVS to put artificial pressure on silver just resulted in a rather pointless waggon.

But maybe you speculating about there being SE/IC scum means that actually

you

are scum... It certainly looks like the "catch me if you can" challenge I like to use as scum for personal entertainment purposes... But that's just

me

, so pure speculation...

[Shadow Dancer]

Sorry, I justt cannot get rid of the conviction that Dickov is scum. A vast majority of posts comes from a scummy POV.
i.e.:
- continuously trying to anticipate eventual critique against his arguments
- perceive votes (his own and other's) mainly as a means to discurage other's voting (OMGUS centered voting and vote perception)
- trying to discurage me from keping my vote on him by trying to defame it as an OMGUS vote in iso 11.
- trying to cover his slips by WIFOM arguments
- likes the ray waggon for the simple reason it's not him (self-centered/survival-oriented mindset) (iso 12)
- iso 14 looks a bit too much as if he tries to establish an opinion that "mafia will do this or that" with the aim to mark himslef as unsuspicious in that regard, and, streangely enough, he seems to be pretty sure that also both bhavit and ray aren't scum... The second paragraph ("[...]...any of the three of us could ACTUALLY be mafia[...]") relativate that impression a bit, but he could have added this paragraph later qhile revising his post.
- thinks of

being lynched

as mafia instead of lynching mafia (in iso 15)

Of course most of these points alone on their own would rather look like typical newb mistakes, but combining them and taking into consideration what might be his freudian slips I think you get a pretty strong overall picture of scummyness.

My second suspect would be Andrew right now, I did not like his framing attempt, but I want to see a bit more from him first.

FoS Andrew

[Shadow Dancer]

dictionary framing- FABRICATING/ CREATING a piece of evidence to suggest that someone else is guilty

i have no created any fake evidence that points to him. i used something he said against him

I am well aware about what "frame" means, thank you.
You take a newb who obviously has his first game and obviously doesn't get along on the site, yet, and present his newbie questions about deadlines (which,btw, as far as I remeber, our mod initially forgot to add to his votecounts) as scumtells.

That is pretty much what your definition means by "fabricating a false piece of evidence" (hairsplitting won't change that).

[Shadow Dancer]

@Dickov: First of: Again: Most of your actions are not scummy per se, but looking at your overall behaviour I can see a pretty strong general image - and that is a stronger and more reliable scumtell then any narrow minded singular scumslip you might be looking for (and that some people like to dump into useless wiki articles).

Point 1 : In what way is this scummy? How can it be scummy to predict the mindset of others you're debating with? How!?

You know you are making bad arguments and still bloat them out - maybe because you consider fake activity a good town tell.
And also alleged self-critique might spare you one vote or another - or you might have thought so.

Point 2 : OMGUS voting

initially

however if you look at the latest vote count, check out who I've attacked and voted for all this while compared with who that guy voted for? OMGUS?

You OMGUS vote silver to L-1.
You OMGUS vote Enigma.
You threaten to OMGUS vote any one who votes you.
You perceive my vote as OMGUS (or at least pretend - i.e. lie about it - to).
All in all you seem to perceive votes mainly for their OMGUS quality and as means to discurage others.

Maybe I'm selfish, maybe you guys define the end-game by writing a wiki and treating it as the mafia bible, but I have my own playstyle and if it challenges the gospel truth of the wiki then it's scummy?
E.g. Wiki says you shouldn't this or you shouldn't that because it's scummy. At the end of the day, who wrote the wiki? God? Or other experienced players like yourself?

Don't try to mould the meta-game to suit yourself thanks.

This is really lame. You're trying to reduce my arguments ad absurdum by defaming mafia as religion, the wiki as a wholy book and us players as ignorant followers? And ergo anything that found it's way into the wiki one way or another is bullshit?
I did not even reference the wiki, btw. And I certainly do not try to crush people with "intelligent sounding" terms as you do.
If you wanna call on your right to play the game as you please you have to concede the same right to every one else. And having the right to do something always includes the right to fall on your nose with it. That's called learning, you can just either ignore it or see it as chance...
And yo should not accuse others of "moulding the meta-game to suit oneself", because you are right now trying to do just that in

your

favour. Basically you seem to have the POV that everything that you do is right, every one else is wrong and antagonism is not allowed. That is self-centered, ignorant and self-righteous.
No one expects you to blindly adopt any stereotypical, conformistic "wiki meta". The wiki can be but a help to new players, but only if you read it with a critical mind and do not follow it blindly.
To make one thing clear: IMO a lot of the stuff in the wiki is just a shitload'a crap, most of it is common sense.
Your "defense" is really going nowhere with me. Sorry, dude.

point 3 : If I wanted to discourage you from voting for me would I use OMGUS as a reason? Bear in mind that the moment I say OMGUS, you will

NOT

retract your vote. Why?

Think about it, people call you out on OMGUS and you comply

; use your own standards to judge that action and tell me if that is scummy or not.

You tried to discurage my vote by defaming it. Now after failing you try to cover your tracks with more WIFOM. Just realize that this is not a valid argument.
Saying "if I where mafia/wanted to achieve 'this', would I be really as stupid as to do 'that'?" is no justification for 'that'.
All I know is that you were so stupid to do "that", tell me: If you wouldn't be so stupid as scum, would you be as townie?

Point 4 : WIFOM? That's like the ad infinitum stuff right? How the hell have I infinitied anything? By the "If I were mafia, would I?" rhetoric?
You want honesty and when it's presented you don't accept it. Do I have a duty to please you in this game?

WIFOM 0th grade: I'll do this.
WIFOM 1st grade: You'll think I'll do this, so I'll do that.
WIFOM 2nd grade: You'll think I think you'll think I'll do this and so do that, hence I'll do this...
[... ad infinitum]
Or something in this sense.

You do not need to really progress this ad infinitum to realize WIFOM is more often then not just a complete null-statement, hence fluff, and should be avoided for argument-purposes.

Point 5 : Yes, I'm a selfish player, I don't want to die after investing so much in the game. I must be scum. (See point 2)

Some plain facts for you:
- mafia is a team game, even if you do not know your team members as town, ego trips are counterproductive.
- playing town and doing it well exposes you to a significantly increased risk of being killed by scum.
- your first, foremost and only intent should be to track down the scummy bastards and do anything that is required to achieve that goal.
- this is but a game - no one is really going to be killed or harmed in any way ;P
- it does not matter for your WINCON if you are dead or alive if the game ends.
- if fulfilling your WINCON requires of you to sacrifice yourself, then do it (again: No pointless suicide play!).
The mere aim od surviving does in no way justify any means (unless you are asurvivor - no, there are none in this game...).

Point 6 : Invalid. I don't think Bhavit is scum? Have you even read what I've posted?

Yes:

It's

good

though

because

currently because of an "imagined" scumslip,

you're leading the lynch board.

[...]

If both of you were townies, which you strongly suggest, why would a waggon on any of you be better than the other? Do not deny that your argument is purely self-centered.

Also, to catch you out on your bullshit, you did a "3 amigoes" analogy with the SEs and IC of the game and how it's unlikely that you can't be mafia. Notice how you did exactly what I did when you said "eliminating myself from the equation...". Hypocritical scumslip much?

People (in this case Enigma) tend to talk a lot about "odds" and justify their decissions with them while in fact they have no realistic idea what the odds are. So I like to provide a little reality check from time to time.
And about the "three amigos"

fl

stuff. Take any group of three players. It should be obvious that any person inside that group has more information about that group then most people outside, just because he has full information about himself.
More generally: Probabilities are different for evey person in the game because they do not suffer from uncertainty about themselves.
What does that mean? - Of course I know that I am town, so from my point of view I can eliminate all the possibilities where I am mafia from the problem.
Since you can or cannot believe me, I also provided the general numbers. Those are only valid for a neutral observer, but for no player inside the game, though.
If you doubt my numbres - better prove me wrong.
If you do not understand the numbers - ask.
Everything else is just pointless misdirection.

[Shadow Dancer]

@bhavit: All the things you listed look more like typical newbie helplessness to me. I wouldn't consider ray a D1 lynch right now. He should have the chance to become more familiar with the game, let's see how he reacts then.

[Shadow Dancer]

@rocker: I'd like you to provide some analysis on all the players, just so we know where you stand.

[Shadow Dancer]

@raymond: bhavit is right, though, you've been rather diffident with your opinion so far. There's quite some stuff going on. What is your opinion about andrew and Dickov, for example? Who would be your top suspect right now? Whom would you vote, whom, if any one, would you be willing to lynch?

[Shadow Dancer]

More gibberish...

@Dickov:
If you want to defend yourself, you should at least make sure that you can bring something up that can hold ground.
That seems to me the main problem with you, any way. You seem not to think through what you are posting before hitting the "submit" button.
Please, before produce another pointless WOT, think about what you really want to say and try to make a concise point.
Debunking all the logical fallacies and hypocrisy in your posts becomes dreary, so I'll refrain from doing s again...

[Shadow Dancer]

Upon rereafing Enigma I realize that I really cannot read him one way or the other, all I can tell

for sure

from his posts is that he is SE. His posts abound in helpfulness. But not much else. His early votes where, well, early votes. And his newest vote for bhavit is not justified at all (other than "let's see how reacts", which is a pretty bad reason to put him at L-1, especially in a newbie game).

@Enigma: Could you maybe give us an analysis on every player or something like that?

[Shadow Dancer]

and dickov, if you cant be a team player, go play sk

Don't be so harsh, he is a newb, quite likely scum, and you aren't exactly gembreakingly brilliant either so far.

[Shadow Dancer]

@Andrew and silver: Please, use proper english and edit your posts in an apropriate way (p.e. not adding your comments

inside

quote tags). That would actually help both of

you

because right now the main problem seems to be that you tend talk to on cros-purposes.

[Shadow Dancer]

EBWOP: gembreakingly = gamebreakingly... lol

[Shadow Dancer]

I haven't added comments inside quote tags....

Your "...|..." stuff isn't much better when it come to readability, though.

Not sure where me and andrew are talking on cross-purposes?

I have no itention to dissect every single of your posts to nit-pick on every possible misunderstanding, but for example you talk about name (i.e. nameloc1986) and andrew perceives something about "player names" and your reply does not point out his obvious misinterptretation, which is where that part of your quarrel turns into kind of an absurd white noise.

Proper english.. meaning your and you're?

I think I can live with

that

. I think that was directed more towards Andrew. I really cannot figure out what some of his sentences mean or refer to since they make - either logically or grammatically - no sense. With you it's more of formatting problem, I guess.

The bottom line is: Trying to figure out what your argument is all about alone gives me headaches and leaves me behind but confused.

[Shadow Dancer]

@andrew & silver: I have a proposition for you: Could the both of you each from his own POV describe what you are accusing the other one of and what you think you are accused of - not adressing each other but some imaginary totally uninvolved outsider who hasn't followed the game so far. I think that would help me as even well as each of you two to figure out what all this is really about.

@Dickov: Similar proposition to you - if you want to seriously defend yourself - start with piucking out one point that you feel accused of and concentrate on making a valid argument against that. I see us getting lost all over the place if we proceed in WOT style defenses.

[Shadow Dancer]

You have the best intgerest to represent the facts in an apropriate manner from you POV. I am just asking you to do waht you negligently negelcted so far. I have my own interpretation of what is going on. I want to verify or falsify it. You can represent your side of it or let it be. But right now the

best

impression I can get from your posts is that yo are

not helpful at all

. So you should better structure your thoughts in a way that displays some thread to prove that you're not only fluffing or trying to hide that you have nothing to say in your favor.

[Shadow Dancer]

@Dickov: Any specific reason

why

you replace out?

@andrew: See, that's exactly what I pointed out. silver never talked about "player names" or something like that he explicitely refered to the (one and clearly defined) player "name" which is short for "nameloc1986" obviously. That is why none of the both of you makes any sense to the other one - because you are talking about almost completely different things.
That you whole discussion is just bizar and puzzling to any one else in the game (or at least to me) is hardly worth mentioning under this premise.

Please,
please please, begin to read carefully and make sure that you actually understand what some one else is trying to tell you before you post a reply.

[Shadow Dancer]

I did.
Twice.

[Shadow Dancer]

@andrew: Do us one favour, please: Calm down, reconsider, retry!

@silver: Do you wnna lynch andrew because he is a VI? What is your general opinion regarding policy lynches? What is you policy when it comes to determine D1 lynches?

[Shadow Dancer]

@silver: You avoid to answer my second question. Why? Under which circumstances precisely? Which policy do you mean? And how far are those conditions matched in this specific game?

[Shadow Dancer]

DP replayces in?! Oh damn fucking no!

vote confirmed

[Shadow Dancer]

Your first question... and then follow up questions... conflict with eachother. You wouldn't be able to ask those other questions if I avoided your question. Thus I refute that I have avoided your second question.
If the policy truly fits (the person has lied several times for instance or has been a huge distraction) I'd be for it, unless I think they are doing it because they are a pr or my gut says otherwise. I'm not sure if policy is fitting very strong here... I just feel that andy is feigning vi now in an attempt to undermine a bad argument from the get go.

Pointing out some unspecified policy or circumstances is more saying "leave me the fuck alone" than answering the question. It exactly avoids to make clear if and under which circomstances you would policy lynch.

Any way, follow up questions:
Could you please lay down your full case against andrew again and point out how it is not based on a simple misunderstanding?
Why would you pick a policy lynch over a scum lynch when you could instead just ignore the VI/troll/whatever you consider him to be?
What makes you think Andrew was "feigning VI now"? Either he was feigning it al the time or he isn't feigning. Have you got any evidence that he is feigning?

[Shadow Dancer]

Because DP is but an useless jerk. I played with him before.

[Shadow Dancer]

Umm no. If I wanted you to leave me the fuck alone... I would say "leave me the fuck alone". Your just disappointed for some reason that I don't have some strict guideline I use when things like this occur. I go with what I feel at the time, a wildcard if you will... (oh hey... my sig..)

Not exactly right. I find it suspect that you try to avoid a clear stance on an extremely important point like policy lynching. Your current stance is "I just do what I want because for some reason I feel like it". Even if I do not doubt that you can hardly expect of me to follow your thoughts if you lay them down that vaguely. You could justify anything like this. It is not convincing, at best.

1. No, I had already made a big post and mafia scum decided to delete it. I do not have the time nor energy to repost it again. (Look at number 3 for a small bit though)

Blaming mafia scum... Of course. Use any text editor or make a memory copy from time to time (ctrl. a + ctrl. c). Referencing a post that is just not there cannnot help any one, I cannot read your thoughts through some magical needs, you have to share them using good old letters.

2. Not saying a policy lynch... I think he's feigning VI now to prevent a broken case he made from being made into suspicion.

You said you'd want to lynch him because he is a VI before. Now you claim you have a case, which is honestly hard to comprehend from your posts and which you decline to lay out in short again.

3. In his first initial attack on me he quotes my two questions to name. These two questions to name are OBVIOUS that they are to name as i quote HIM. I even fucking label him at the VERY TOP OF THE POST. When he did his summary, he says I questioned raymond?! I'm sorry but that's too much of a bs answer, I can't understand a VI being THAT much of an I. ESPECIALLY since name RESPONDS to my fucking post as well.

I still do not see where you see any more than ignorance and horribly bad play on Andrew's side.

FoS silver

I find his answers unsatisfying so far and have the feeling he is only going for an easy D1 lynch.

[Shadow Dancer]

EBWOP: magical needs ??!?! Should mean "magical means", I think....

[Shadow Dancer]

OMG. DP claims more heavily anti town things he's done. Lynch him already! (Note to self: And do not believe any DP claims at all...)

@DP: Yeah. And after just jerking around all the time to make sure not to share your deep insights you also made sure others wouldn't have any clue. And if that wasn't bad enough you started to buddy to Wicked on D3 to make sure it all went down the drain

that

day, just to top it all by initiating a waggon on wicked on D4. Sure, you totally had figured it out, man.
AS for this game: You better convince me soon that you have any serious intentions.

[Shadow Dancer]

You are contradicting yourself... this post proves the contradiction. You have moved from "I am avoiding your question" to, "I am not precise enough" or "I am too vague in my answer". You now officially accept that I have answered your question. You just don't like how I answered it.

Obviously wrong. That you did not entirely ignore my question and adressed it some way does not in the least mean that you actually answered it.

Thanks for the hints! I would have never realized this magical discovery! How do I use these letters that you speak of oh wise one.

You chose an obviously dumb way to explain yourself, you get an appropriate answer. No need to be sarcastic like that.

Hold up now... you good sir are putting words in my mouth. PLEASE quote where I said.. I want him lynched because I think he is a VI. Also if I thought he was a VI... why would I want him lynched?

Oh, this is easy:

... but VI or SI... you earn this for now...

VOTE: Andy the I

Andy bumps to the top, I think he's an si just feigning vi now... or just a troll.

either way death to the heathen.

Just as two quick examples where you call Andrew VI and suggest that you want him lynched for that.

So you think Andrew's actions have been genuine?

The VI part? I haven't done meta reading o him, yet, but as far as this game is concerned your accusation that he's making it up looks just plain artificial to me.

Right back at you bud, trying to manipulate my words is a big no no.

So since what you wanted to say is not what I received and that's why I was manipulating you?!
Might it be your problem that you do not present your thoughts in a clear and unmistakable way?
In this case "manipulation" would actually mean that I either control your thoughts or at least edited your posts.
What you mean is misrepresentation.
And about that: You decline to present your actual case against Andrew, you do not really explain your attitude towards policy lynches, you suggest a lynch for what seems like horrible reasons to me. You

present

very little, hence there's hardly much for me to

mis

represent so far. I am just filling the gaps.

[Shadow Dancer]

EBWODP:

You are contradicting yourself... this post proves the contradiction. You have moved from "I am avoiding your question" to, "I am not precise enough" or "I am too vague in my answer". You now officially accept that I have answered your question. You just don't like how I answered it.

Obviously wrong. That you did not entirely ignore my question and adressed it some way does not in the least mean that you actually answered it.

Thanks for the hints! I would have never realized this magical discovery! How do I use these letters that you speak of oh wise one.

You chose an obviously dumb way to explain yourself, you get an appropriate answer. No need to be sarcastic like that.

Hold up now... you good sir are putting words in my mouth. PLEASE quote where I said.. I want him lynched because I think he is a VI. Also if I thought he was a VI... why would I want him lynched?

Oh, this is easy:

... but VI or SI... you earn this for now...

VOTE: Andy the I

Andy bumps to the top, I think he's an si just feigning vi now... or just a troll.

either way death to the heathen.

Just as two quick examples where you call Andrew VI and suggest that you want him lynched for that.

So you think Andrew's actions have been genuine?

The VI part? I haven't done meta reading o him, yet, but as far as this game is concerned your accusation that he's making it up looks just plain artificial to me.

Right back at you bud, trying to manipulate my words is a big no no.

So since what you wanted to say is not what I received and that's why I was manipulating you?!
Might it be your problem that you do not present your thoughts in a clear and unmistakable way?
In this case "manipulation" would actually mean that I either control your thoughts or at least edited your posts.
What you mean is misrepresentation.
And about that: You decline to present your actual case against Andrew, you do not really explain your attitude towards policy lynches, you suggest a lynch for what seems like horrible reasons to me. You

present

very little, hence there's hardly much for me to

mis

represent so far. I am just filling the gaps.[/quote]

[Shadow Dancer]

- No, an answer is qualified by conveying clear and useful information.

- Your argument that he is SI feiging VI is weak at best - how do you tell those apart? How was his "name" misunderstanding scummy? Point is - you seem not really t care if he is SI or VI, you only repeatedly state he was an I of any kind and had to be lynched, regardless.

- I don't know about you, but I have seen townies do far worse mistakes.

[Shadow Dancer]

-Contradictory Shadow

No, an answer is qualified by conveying clear and useful information.

False, here is the definition of an answer. the speech act of replying to a question . This is what I did, you did not like the answer and I AGAIN say that you could have simply asked for more details rather than insinuating and twisting it that i'm avoiding questions. You are also again contradicting yourself as in previous post you agreed that I answered the question.

Your argument that he is SI feiging VI is weak at best - how do you tell those apart? How was his "name" misunderstanding scummy? Point is - you seem not really t care if he is SI or VI, you only repeatedly state he was an I of any kind and had to be lynched, regardless.

SI as he brings a poor case on me and then tries to refute it in an I manner that.. would be incredibly hard for anyone to believe. It's almost like texting a friend and bad-talking someone but accidentally sending it to the person you are bad-talking instead. It is fucking hard to do legitimately. I refute the point you try to make as I said in the second post that you quoted, that I believe he is an SI feigning VI. Thus regardless you contradict yourself again.

I don't know about you, but I have seen townies do far worse mistakes.

What's the point of this post? I'm voting for who I think is scum because I believe his actions have been bad in this game. What actions have occurred in this game that have been worse thus far?

Other Questions For You
-Why do you seem to be tunneling on my case anyway, you claim its a weak case, andy only has 1 vote on him thus far (no i'm not trying to downplay my vote), but you are acting like he is going to get lynched asap.
-It's starting to feel like you are saying "oh em gee silver has such a weakz case on my buddy. Imma go save my buddy so he don't go and dig a deeper hole for himself and i'll try to make silver appear scummy! Super leet plan go!"

[Shadow Dancer]

-Contradictory Shadow

No, an answer is qualified by conveying clear and useful information.

False, here is the definition of an answer. the speech act of replying to a question . This is what I did, you did not like the answer and I AGAIN say that you could have simply asked for more details rather than insinuating and twisting it that i'm avoiding questions. You are also again contradicting yourself as in previous post you agreed that I answered the question.

Speaking of twisting words - you do.
By continuously pointing out that I contradicting myself about you answering the question you try to conceal the fact that you did avoid a clear stance on the subject in question.
If I ask you how the weather will be and you answer me "It'll either be clouds or sun" that is semantically an answer, contetwise it isn't. You decline to convey the information that you were asked for by making it blurry beyond recognition.

Your argument that he is SI feiging VI is weak at best - how do you tell those apart? How was his "name" misunderstanding scummy? Point is - you seem not really t care if he is SI or VI, you only repeatedly state he was an I of any kind and had to be lynched, regardless.

SI as he brings a poor case on me and then tries to refute it in an I manner that.. would be incredibly hard for anyone to believe. It's almost like texting a friend and bad-talking someone but accidentally sending it to the person you are bad-talking instead. It is fucking hard to do legitimately. I refute the point you try to make as I said in the second post that you quoted, that I believe he is an SI feigning VI. Thus regardless you contradict yourself again.

You strongly suggest that "I" automatically implies it's rater SI than VI. But in fact all you point out is the "I" part, your conclusion that andrew must be scum because of him being an "I" which is just plain misleading. My impression is that you try to launch a mislynch on a cheap target instead of looking out for real scum. You do not even dif deeper after Andrew gives you an obviusly senseless answer to determine where it comes from. You just proceed to pick on his self-procalimed VI status - weak point found - and immideately suggest he'd be scum for being a VI/SI.

I don't know about you, but I have seen townies do far worse mistakes.

What's the point of this post? I'm voting for who I think is scum because I believe his actions have been bad in this game. What actions have occurred in this game that have been worse thus far?

Like this game was the only one were some (supposed) townie (to make this clear: I do not even call Andrew supposed townie, I find him pretty suspicious) ever did something bloodcurdingly stupid.
Just some examples I have seen myself:
- fakeclaiming cop as VT with a guilty on another VT
- vigging neutral/town reads
- trolling all game

-Why do you seem to be tunneling on my case anyway, you claim its a weak case, andy only has 1 vote on him thus far (no i'm not trying to downplay my vote), but you are acting like he is going to get lynched asap.

Because you did not convincingly point out how all this is about Adrew so far. It is about you.

-It's starting to feel like you are saying "oh em gee silver has such a weakz case on my buddy. Imma go save my buddy so he don't go and dig a deeper hole for himself and i'll try to make silver appear scummy! Super leet plan go!"

And this is supposed to do what? Discourage me questioning you? Right now

you

're digging a hole for

yourself

.

[Shadow Dancer]

I did not unvote, my vote's still on DP.

vote DP

[Shadow Dancer]

@silver:
OK, you are serious?
You seriously insinuate to me that I did not ask you for further details?
Obviously I did.
And is noted, nontheless, that you tried to get away with an incredibly wishy-washy answer.
Now you are from nitpicking and twisting words to traight out lying.

Here's where I place my vote, Specifically stating that Andy's an I. Nowhere am I suggesting that his being an I means he's scum.

Which is exactly my point. Now you suddenly admit that you want to lynch Andy

not

because he is scum (and feigning VI, as you lately claimed) but only because he is an "I", although that tells you jack-shit about his alignment.
What about presenting a coherent version once.

This was posted AFTER Andy posted his summation of I and his (andy's) actions which I have said before I find to be bs and that he's just trying to hide and feign vi now.

So please point out where I'm supposedly picking on his self-proclaimed VIness.

So he was a real VI/SI. Until this point, where he suddenly's feigning it?
I am just using your words. And it does not make nay sense to me.

Great job at posting a seemingly meaningful post... while Completely ignoring some questions that were directed at you in same post.
I know that townies (newb townies to) do horrible things. That's not what I asked you.. Here's my quote to refresh your memory

What's the point of this post? I'm voting for who I think is scum because I believe his actions have been bad in this game. What actions have occurred in this game that have been worse thus far?

Bold is for added emphasis.

I talked about VIs (not neccessarily newbies in my examples) in general and you insist on an example in

this

game?! What makes this game so special that you want to rule out the possibility of a newbie / whoever doing something stupid in this of all games? It is a newbie game, for damn sake.
This is all about your bad if not totally intransparent motives in your case against Andrew and about yout growing contradictions.
This is definitely not about Andrew. I'd lynch him any time. I pointed out that his lame attemot to call out name for his questions to the mod was a lame attempt at newb framing or maybe feigning scum hunting.
That does not change the fact that your case against him is intransparent except for the contradictory part... And so far you declined to lays it down in a coherent manner, although I asked you to do it in every single post so far. Instead you proceed with these WOTs, trying to undermine my questions.
DP seems to really wanna play this game. So I can do this now:

unvote. vote Silver. FoS DP

Time to go for

real

information.

Still, this is interesting:

I generally prefer scum, although some games it's really fun to be town depending on the group of people and my level of involvement. but some games I kinda fizzle when I'm on town because of characters and boredom and game not moving.

Hmm... I saw your town meta. SO this must be your scum meta

[Shadow Dancer]

From my current PoV this is just spot on:

andrew/silver and dickov/shadow pairs are quite possibly town vs scum interactions.

Definitely keep it in mind!

[Shadow Dancer]

Sorry, enigma. No more WOTs, promisse.
@silver: To help you get your thoughts straight:
- What is your policy lynch policy (nice word )
- What is your case against Andrew? Please give us a short timeline of it from your PoV.

[Shadow Dancer]

It gives a good neutral view of the situation

So much about subtly insinuating one is town.
Neutral is what you aren't, any way.

But I think I'll try and summarize both my points against Dickov and against Silver in the near future, so no one actually has to read all of it.

I also feel like meta reading both DP and Andrew right now would be a good idea...
Yuck I hate meta reading

[Shadow Dancer]

You seriously insinuate to me that I did not ask you for further details?
Obviously I did.

Please quote where you asked for further details. Your response right away after me answering your first question was. "YOU ARE AVOIDING MY QUESTION!".

@silver: You avoid to answer my second question. Why? Under which circumstances precisely? Which policy do you mean? And how far are those conditions matched in this specific game?

Gratuitous to say anything but *lol*.
*lol*

[Shadow Dancer]

Where does andrew claim to come from? New Zealand? They speak english there, right?
Wikipedia agrees...
Just wanted to make sure...
His poor use of semantics and grammar is astonishing.

[Shadow Dancer]

OMG
All DP's wiki page says is this:

David Parker is an useless weirdo.

Oh wait, I think that's what I wrote there.
Nevermind...
@DP: Would you mind puting a list of your games on your wiki page?

[Shadow Dancer]

Andrew trying to hijack my logic?
Lay down your own thoughts for once, Andrew! You're lazy.

@mod: Again: I pretty surely voted for DP, then unvoted and voted for silver

unvote. vote silver

[Shadow Dancer]

Also you didn't respond : (

From context I deduce this was directed at me (?) Respond to what?

YOU ARE AVOIDING MY QUESTION! WHY ARE YOU VOTING MY QUESTION!

Voting my question? Could you please clarify what you mean by that.

[Shadow Dancer]

@Hop: Does this mean you only read the first three (or something) pages so far?

[Shadow Dancer]

Beware, off-topic disclaimer

David Parker is an useless weirdo.

Isn't this one of those exceptions where it's supposed to be a and not an?

Of course... I changed it.
I asked a canadian friend who works as a translator and he gave me the following explanation from wikipedia:

An is the older form (related to one, cognate to German ein; etc.), now used before words starting with a vowel sound, regardless of whether the word begins with a vowel letter.

[Shadow Dancer]

My vote on you is serious, yes. I have the impression you wanted to initate a mislynch on Andrew, quicklynch is something different, please try to at least define terms for yourself before you use them. That helps avoiding misunderstandings.
I also find the methods of your defense against me quite interestig. You are attacking me quite vehemently, but you did not even throw a FoS in my driection so far. I wonder what you are up to.

This is almost as bad as andy : P... you did read the whole post right?

What you seem not to realize is that you lay down you thoughts in a way that others cannot follow.

[Shadow Dancer]

Fact is you spend more time attacking my questions than actually clarifying your own thoughts.

[Shadow Dancer]

Wow. Silver. You are accusing others of being VI. Of course for some one as brilliant as you that is an appropriate thing to do...

Fact is: You clearly expressed your will to have Andrew lynched for very poor reasons.
You decline to provide any convonving argument for Andrew actually being scum.
Instead of clarifying your case you try to provoke Andrew by insulting him and attack me for calling you out for your newb bashing.
Andrews meta IMO shows that he is not playing exeptionally bad in this game, so your twist that he is just feigning, which you brought up to bend your "lynch the VI" to a "lynch scum" does not hold ground.

And after I call you our for accusing me of things like lying and twisting your words, again without really explaining in which way I supposedly lied or twisted your words, the very nect thing you do is vote for me - for a reason that could not be more artificial. Scum silip? Wow. You accuse me of lying and then you need to bring up something like this to justify a vote? Seriously: This is just so faked.

IMO Silver has dropped all his cover now and proven that he is scum. For me it's time to go for the lynch now.

confirm vote

[Shadow Dancer]

You've been cocky all the time. Be aware that you are not the only one who knows how to be sarcastic.
And I never agreed that I twisted your words. I did not, I just presented your own contratdictions and unclarities to you. You declined to clarify and prefered to start a nitpick and counterattackwar. So I cannot count out the possibility that I may have misunderstood something. However, if you seriously think so, you maybe would want to clarify it now.
And no, I actually never said I'd know it is a mislynch. I just said you are looking like you are setting up a mislynch. It is all about

you

still, nothing about Andrew, IMO he only is rather accidently the easy target you chose. If you turn out scum he will be cleared for me, nevertheless.
And seriously: Your claim is the follwing:

Actually yeah that above quote changes my mind about some things.

You claimed back and forth that Andrew was scum/just a VI/rather scum nontheless/lynch him anyway... (I am still not sure what version you actually stand by)
I asked you to clarify that matter
You remain vague while attacking me pretty harshly.
I asked you why you would not vote for me after uttering lots of strong accusations (deducing from your own words your "case" against me was much stronger than that one against Andrew.
And then, wonder oh wonder, right in your next post you do

exactly

that.
Of course not because of any of your previously stated reasons that would have all justified a vote from your PoV.
No, you have to invent a "scum slip" that "lets you see things in an entirely different light.
OK.
Let's see if any one believes that bullshit.

I'll resign from posting more for now. I'll have little time until weekend, anyway.
I hope some other's manage to catch up and give their opinions in the meantime.

[Shadow Dancer]

Just one thing, because the situation calls for it.

A ray lynch just doesn't sit well with me right now. Remember this is a newbie game. Lynching some one on D1 mostly for things he did not do (inactivity, lack of useful posts...) is probably not the wisest thing to do. Ray is most likely just a newbie who is a bit overwhelmend by all the stuff happening. That does not mean he cannot be scum, but it certainly is no reliable sign for him being scum.
Instead of just rushing a lynch on him we should focus on forcing ray to actually do something, give us stances, present us analysis etc....
That being said:

@Ray: Whom would you support a lynch on right now? Please do not just throw out some names but also point out your reasons.

[Shadow Dancer]

Hmm... Just to didge a prod reight now... Auick skimming shows that Ray remains unwilling to contribute.

@Ray:

This is an official ultimatum from me to you. If you are town and willing to play this game then do something useful. If not I assume you are scum or at least dispensable enough to be deadline lynched. That means I announce my willingness to join the Ray waggon if neccesarry to achieve a lynch.
I am not sure about the votecount right now, but FoS Ray

[Shadow Dancer]

The point is: If Ray decides to wait with his defense or his own scumhunting until even closer to deadine it doesn't matter how convincing he argues, it will be too late to swing to another waggon. He weill be lynched any way. Thus I set him an ultimatum ahead of that.

Raymond, last chance, you should claim now!

[Shadow Dancer]

And anyway, I'd prefer a silver or DP lynch, or an Andrew lynch when it comes down to lynching a lurker. But since it looks like neither I'll hammer Ray if needed.

[Shadow Dancer]

It's still time for a silver waggon.

[Shadow Dancer]

I thhought DL is the 5th?
And as you said: We do not neccesarily need 5 votes.

However, Ray should definitely claim

NOW!!!

[Shadow Dancer]

@silver: Why is it so important to you to predetermine who will drop the hammer? I'll presumably be online when Dl approaches and do what is required (which might be nothing at all, according to the rules, as hop stated, so why worry at all?)
Besides that: Stop flaming. Seriously, if I have any doubts in your scummyness because then it is that you seem to flame against everything and every one for minimal causes.

@andrew:

2. pls look at my other games and see what happened when i act pro

pro? pro what? pro-town? professional? proactive? I guess it's the latter... Please learn to form sentences that are unambiguous.
Question is: Why don't you consider it neccesary to participate mor in

this

game. It certainly has been demanded multiple times.

It is interesting that bhavit's best bet for a lynch is still a "lynch all lurkers" policy...

And DP is definitely not lurking, I've got no idea where that idea could possibly have come from...

[Shadow Dancer]

[...]Then SD comes along saying it was scummy as hell. Seems like an SB lynch is being set up for tomorrow already.

To me it seems more like a Ray lynch is set up already. And Ray shows no interest to do something aout it, so...

Where do I say anything even remotely phrased like "silver doing XXX is scummy as hell"?

[Shadow Dancer]

Andrew's softclaiming attempts are just bad...

[Shadow Dancer]

I mean there

are

uses for a cop softclaim by a VT on D1 - NK-baiting is a valid town tactic. But I absolutely doubt that Andrew would pull

that

off. Hence I do not really know what to make of it, but softclaiming both cop and scum is defefinitely anti-town, if not scummy.
Ray on the other hand seems to have flaked out. I would propose to have him replayced and pressure the hell out of his replacement on D2 and go for an andrew lynch right now.

Unvote. Vote Andrew

@mod: I request a replacement on ray's slot ASAP.

[Shadow Dancer]

@DP: How do you read Andrew as town?

@Hop: It's not hours, it's like a day. Count in reduced lynch requirements and it is still possible to switch target, most people will do their best to check in before DL, any way.
And what would you do if Ray suddenly turned up with a PR claim, for example?

[Shadow Dancer]

Hmm, sounds believable.
Andrew lists hardly any game in his wiki Maybe you could provide some.

[Shadow Dancer]

Hi, Baby. I know there's a lot for you to catch up on, but I would really like an analysis by aou ASAP.
Your avatar makes me nervous

#588: "And what would you do if Ray suddenly turned up with a PR claim, for example?" Role fishing? Setting out a false claim?

No. That was just me, the IC speaking. Hop was proposing that switching waggons so close to deadline could not be done and I broght up some arguments against that, especially the neccesity to switch waggons after a PR claim.
BTW, I count the fact that Baby did not pick it up and claim a PR as a slight indication towards her townieness. But there's some WIFOM involved noe, of course...

@DP: You vote me and give that wuote again. I think you still did not answer my question which was: Where is that "scummy as hell" quote from?

[Shadow Dancer]

Seriously, Hop, you have no idea. Lynching a VT if you really think he is a VT is bad. Trying to find mafia instead is always better.
And it is not quite as simple as you think. Would a cop claim cop on D1? In this setup a claimed cop is a burned cop, claiming cop D1 does nothing for the real cop, practically he just turns into a VT after that.
Mafia on the other hand might try and go down in flames, claiming cop and thus provoking a counter claim, enabling a cop kill on N1. Playing 1 vs. 6 with a dead cop is a good position for mafia, if one of them was a likely lynch anyway.
Stay away from a one dimensional "mafia will do this and town will do that" mindset. That just allows scum to easily outguess you.

[Shadow Dancer]

What Hop is refering to is the following: If you have explicitely claimed VTs alive, it is easier for scu to sweep for PRs.
However, a inhibited mislynch is always better for town then a slightly lower chance for scum to eliminate a PR.
As a matter of fact: I pointed out that you cannot believe any D1 claim, ever, neither as scum nor as town. But you should be aware of the possibilities to verify or falsify a claim. A fake claim is always a big lie that has to be true from that point in time on (unless it is a gambit, in which case the claiming player needs a plan to verify

that

).

[Shadow Dancer]

Not an exact quote you didn't say "scummy as hell" (that was my interpretation), but here's what I'm talking about:

@silver: Why is it so important to you to predetermine who will drop the hammer? I'll presumably be online when Dl approaches and do what is required (which might be nothing at all, according to the rules, as hop stated, so why worry at all?)
Besides that: Stop flaming. Seriously, if I have any doubts in your scummyness because then it is that you seem to flame against everything and every one for minimal causes

It's still time for a silver waggon.

You just seemed to be setting up a day 2 silverbullet lynch with Enigma's poor attack on SB when SB seemed to be only making a comment that someone has to ensure as lynch occurs. It's not even relevant since no one has to hammer since 3 votes = lynch at deadline. That will make scum hunting/bandwagon analysis a bit more interesting too!

Not an exact quote?!?
Looks more like a total misinterpretation on your part.
I ask a mere question, then I pointed out that silver is flaming too much.
How is any of those two things suggesting that silver is (something in the manner of) "scummy as hell"?

[Shadow Dancer]

So you withdraw your stated reason for voting me but keep the vote, claiming that it is because your prefered lynch target has o promissing waggon on him - while at the same time I have no waggon on me that looks likely to result in a lynch, either.

I wonder how long it is until I really. seriously. freak. o.u.t. People in this game are doing just so many things that seem absolutely irrational

[Shadow Dancer]

@HOP: Just to say one thing absolutely clearly: I am IC in this game and That means I am supposed to teach people about mafia theory. I personally favour a free and flexible thinkig above all since it is the only thing that allows you to adapt to any situation that might occur in any game.
I consider encouraging newbies to think of their own, creatively and outside the box much more feavourable than teaching some dogmatic wiki-meta.
And, to come to the point, I would not abuse my position to mislead town, i.e. propose tactics that I personally do not consider a valid choice for town in a given situation.

Look at it froma different angle: Mafia is a game of fucking around with other peoples minds. Generally scum has the easier part in doing so, because they have much more information.
Key for town is to keep the additional information mafia gets as small as possible while trying to gain more information of their own, enabling town to screw with mafias minds.
An absolutely predictable, dogamtic town, as you propose it, is the absolutely best thing for mafia to happen, maybe even better than a bunch of VIs, since you cannot outguess VIs.
As a more concrete point, when I decided to switch my vote to Andrew Ray had not even claimed, as you suggest, but had just flaked out, thus it was unlikely to get his claim before DL at all. I do not say this is a favourable sitution, but such are the challenges of newbie games.

[Shadow Dancer]

1. spicy aka raymond claimed VT so he is either VT or mafia and in my mind the best lynch for day 1, 4 or 5 people thought he was scummy enough to vote him so why let a VT claim change that. if you think he is scummy, his claim has to be treated as a lie.

Your logic is really flawed here. You are assuming scum would likely claim VT and you are assuming that a town PR would claim to be a town PR. Both are just assumptions and not neccesarily true.
In fact, scum is very likely to claim cop on D1 and a cop might just bite the bullet and claim VT. In both cases the possible gain is much better than the loss if the gambit does not work.

[Shadow Dancer]

5. right now andrew hasn't claimed anything, raymond aka spicy has so if we stick with the raymond lynch, his filp will tell us very much. If he flips scum, the people reluctant to vote him or the people to de-rail the wagon are good suspects for potential scum. If he flips town, the people who are pushing the hardest for his lynch would be looked at but I would move them to the bottom of the suspect list because mafia typically won't be so brazen as to force a lynch on a known townie, they would either vote reluctantly or stay away from the bandwagon all together.

And right here you present a fleshy reason not to lynch raymond - you basically lay down all your plans for D2 in case Ray flips this or that, it makes you more predictable. Before you start telling people what to do, based on some theory you picked up, you should learn one basic rule first: When to remain quiet and not reveal thoughts that are not helpful to town at all at that point in time...

[Shadow Dancer]

2h to DL, right?

[Shadow Dancer]

and just so it is known, that if people don't go back on raymond, I will be placing my vote on ShadowDancer because he is trying to debunk mafia theory about VTs and implying I am scum for thinking it AND he is trying to de-rail a wagon on a scummy claim VT and trying to force yet another person to claim. he seems to want to give mafia better chance at nailing power roles.

Oh, and there it is, again... Why do you think, people should know this?

[Shadow Dancer]

Yeah, I am just not sure if the forum time is "Pacific Daylight Time".

[Shadow Dancer]

I am not entirely sure how far all that is meant as a joke...

[Shadow Dancer]

in a small game like this, fake claiming cop is the wrong move. say scum fake claimed cop, the real cop counter claims and we know right away we got one scum found.

now if the real cop was forced to L-1 and claimed cop, mafia would not even dream of countring his claim because that would put a target on his back right away.

I do not want to further discuss scum tactics, I'll adress this in after game talk.

[Shadow Dancer]

What I meant is that your reaction ....

Sadly my personality doesn't allow me to do this, I put everything on the table. I don't know how to keep my mouth shut. Ask all my friends, family, co-workers, and even school teachers.

i was always most talkative, Mr. open mouth insert foot, etc etc

that is the problem with people who have high IQ, they have no common sense

and yes before anyone else points it out, i do think very highly of myself, some would even call me narcistic, but I prefer to call myself Mr. Lightman.

...kind of frightens me...

[Shadow Dancer]

One vote more on me and I'll claim immideately. I am online all the time.

[Shadow Dancer]

Considering that both of them are currently not voting I expect them to sheck in before DL. Anything else would be anti-town as hell.

[Shadow Dancer]

intelligent people usually scare scum

Nope, the intelligence part left me cold... Don't allow yourself to be fooled by thinking you are cleverer than every one else.

[Shadow Dancer]

LOL... DP starting a new waggon 2 hours prior to DL. You're rrrrrealy wicked ;P I think I begin to like you after all.

[Shadow Dancer]

27 pages for D1 is impressive, iguess - especially for newbie game, i.e. any game with only 9 players... I predict it'll finally be 28 pages

[Shadow Dancer]

@_@

[Shadow Dancer]

OK, great. I claim cop. Not much to convince you, since i have no investigations.

[Shadow Dancer]

Who would CC a D1 cop claim?

[Shadow Dancer]

@enigma: Nothing to gain from CCing a scum fake claimig cop on D1. Just burns the real cop with no investigations. Better to wait until D2.

[Shadow Dancer]

Being the first does sadly not prevent the latter... However, just running around and calling people VI is not exactly helpful or something...

[Shadow Dancer]

rather not, sorry.

[Shadow Dancer]

ANdrew: Either you claimor you don't. Right now you are soft claiming doc as openly that it makes no sense to disguise noticing it... I think you have soft claimed every freaking role in this game so far... Who would believe you, any way...

[Shadow Dancer]

I am back... I will post tomrrow, I am just too exhausted to have my thoughts straight right now.

[Shadow Dancer]

First of:

Learn what fucking V/LA means! Being V/LA is not lurking, calling people on V/LA out for lurking is very anti-town at best. I think me being for mere four days of V/LA at the very start of a day is definitely acceptable for you guys. I disgust the attempts, mostly of DP, to present my V/LA as a scumtell - it is nothing even remotely close to it.

Since I had not much time to reread so far and likely won't have until weekend and there is so much really strange behaviour going on in this game, I'll go for a

vote DP

for now...

The fact that enigma is still alive makes me think he might be scum...

However, to end all the debate and allow this game to progress:
I correct my claim to VT.
That means I am not a real cop!
So my setup analysis:
If it was GGC, I'd be dead by now.
If it was GGD, there would have been no night kill because scum would have tried to kill me, not aware there's in fact a doc (it is more than unlikely scum would dare leave a cop alive without an RB).
This leaves us with GRDC or GR0, most likely GR0, which means we should really pull ourself together and get some good analysis to find scum.

[Shadow Dancer]

EBWODP: First of:

Learn what fucking V/LA means! Being V/LA is not lurking, calling people on V/LA out for lurking is very anti-town at best. I think me being on V/LA for mere four days at the very start of a day is definitely acceptable for you guys. I disgust the attempts, mostly of DP, to present my V/LA as a scumtell - it is nothing even remotely close to it.

Since I had not much time to reread so far and likely won't have until weekend and there is so much really strange behaviour going on in this game, I'll go for a

vote DP

for now...

The fact that enigma is still alive makes me think he might be scum...

However, to end all the debate and allow this game to progress:
I correct my claim to VT.
That means I am not a real cop!
So my setup analysis:
If it was GGC, I'd be dead by now.
If it was GGD, there would have been no night kill because scum would have tried to kill me, not aware there's in fact a doc (it is more than unlikely scum would dare leave a cop alive without an RB).
This leaves us with GRDC or GR0, most likely GR0, which means we should really pull ourself together and get some good analysis to find scum.

[Shadow Dancer]

Either you are a newb - then you could not tell the difference between a bad or a good example of play.

Or you actually have some experience which you can base your judgement on - then you aren't newb.

Anyway, you just brought up the stereotypical dogamatic response I had expected of you.

My play was definitely unusual by site standards, but thus it had the potential to be very effective.
If it was inapropriate IC play - I leavee that to your judgement - it is definitely part of my play style.

[Shadow Dancer]

Ah, so you speculated that "A" or "B" and once it turns out "C" you understand "not A" and deduce "B"... Pretty cool.

[Shadow Dancer]

;..(

And there's so much truth in the QT...

Enigma, you're one manipulative motherf**** (no offense, of course...)

[Shadow Dancer]

Does any one want me to comment on something? Right now I do not feel like it.

[Shadow Dancer]

Does any one want me to comment on something? Right now I do not feel like it.

Yeah, why the hell did you roleclaim cop?

As I said: To determine the setup for town and play RB/NK bait for scum.

[Shadow Dancer]

I pointed out several times that a real cop shouldn't ever CC a fake claim, especially on D1.

[Shadow Dancer]

So whyt is not clear to you? You explained it yourself: CCing will burn the cop - without any investigation made.
A fake claiming scum is already dead, even if the real cop is killed he is proven to be scum.
So the cop does not need to worry and can just get investigations in.
If he hits the other scum on N1 it's GG
It he gets to townies, who preferably stay alive, and claims on D3 it's also GG for scum.

Cop is just a tremendously powerful role - and scum would do anything to eliminate a cop - fake claiming cop to provoke a counter claim is one of the obvious things to do, a cop is such a huge danger for scum that eliminating it quickly for the cost of one mafia member can be really beneficial to scum. But a cop can easily deny that by not CCing.
As a side note, scum fake claiming cop is much stronger if there are multiple mafia members, so one lost member does not preponderate that much. With just two members in the newbie setup it is more like a all-in move.
If you want an interesting example, look at newbie 958 were I sacrifice myself on D2 to draw out the cop for my partner to kill.

[Shadow Dancer]

What I should probably add is that the best time for a cop to claim is 1 day before LyLo for obvious reasons.

[Shadow Dancer]

That would have been really bad luck...
Probability 5% for it to happen to be precise, not even taking into account second guessing by the doc.

[Shadow Dancer]

I agree with David Parker.
The reason for David's bad reputatoion is not his gambit play, btw, but that he happens to play some games with VI meta.

Interestingly Dickov brought up the same critique on petrified site meta - only that ironically of all people he aimed it against me.

Another funny, thought insignificant, fact is that strictly speaking I did not even lie. My exact words were "I claim cop" which I obviously did by posting those words. I never pretended that I actually

were

the cop.

@Hop: You do not even understand your own meta, as it seems. The only logical conclusion from your own principles is that if you are doc and waggoned on D1 you claim doc to stop the mislynch because as claimed VT you would be lynched any way.
Seriously, what you suggest is a town play that is almost 100% predictable. And that just wins games for scum.
Even worse, it encourages both townies and scum to just shut off their brains and act in established, stereotyped ways, making them unable to adapt to new situations, again allowing scum to just outplay them.
If you are half as clever as you obviously consider yourself to be, you should very cautiously read the wiki article about WIFOM again.

[Shadow Dancer]

Not true.

[Shadow Dancer]

@Enigma: What makes me a - in your words - "hypocritical fuck", by the way?

[Shadow Dancer]

I agree with David Parker.
The reason for David's bad reputatoion is not his gambit play, btw, but that he happens to play some games with VI meta.

Interestingly Dickov brought up the same critique on petrified site meta - only that ironically of all people he aimed it against me.

Another funny, thought insignificant, fact is that strictly speaking I did not even lie. My exact words were "I claim cop" which I obviously did by posting those words. I never pretended that I actually

were

the cop.

@Hop: You do not even understand your own meta, as it seems. The only logical conclusion from your own principles is that if you are doc and waggoned on D1 you claim doc to stop the mislynch because as claimed VT you would be lynched any way.
Seriously, what you suggest is a town play that is almost 100% predictable. And that just wins games for scum.
Even worse, it encourages both townies and scum to just shut off their brains and act in established, stereotyped ways, making them unable to adapt to new situations, again allowing scum to just outplay them.
If you are half as clever as you obviously consider yourself to be, you should very cautiously read the wiki article about WIFOM again.

i understand my own meta more than you know, if I was town doc there is no chance I'd get run up day 1 ever.

No further comments...

[Shadow Dancer]

I do not say anything about town fake claiming in that quote

But that mods do all kind of things up to the bastardry of unknown sanities to weaken cops only proves how powerful cop as a role is.

I know my gambit was high risk high gain and to town's disadvantage in the vanilla setup that we happened to be in.

I would also never fake claim as VT on any other day than D1. Especially claiming fake investigation results as townie would totally defy the purpose.

[Shadow Dancer]

The gambit is debatable, I admit that. When I did it I had not compltetely thought it through and I still have no fixed opinion about it.
My problem is more about players like Hop who basically defy any gambit play by advocating their narrow minded understanding of game theory.

Anyway the real problem of this game lies elsewhere - I allowed myself to become carried away in that pointless discussion with silver with the final result that this game descended into utter chaos at the end of D1. As I see it that is where I really let this town down. (Good move by Enigma by the way to play the voice of reason in that situation).

[Shadow Dancer]

Ah, that's what you meant, Enigma. No, I did not know that DP has a history of fake claims. I just hated him for his performance in perpetual MyLo. That game was flooded with VIs - and DP was probably the worst of them - only that he feigned VI with a purpose - don't ask me which...

[Shadow Dancer]

*LOL* about this btw:
[quote"Hop"]Haven't mentioned pairing cause I can't quite tell

could be

enigma/dp
enigma/bs
enigma/Ben
dp/bs
dp/Ben
Ben/bs[/quote]
So far, so correct...

If you include yourself the possibilities goes up from 3! to 4!

I'll just assume you are too lazy to type out all 24 scum pairs in that situation then.

And later:

Actually nvm my maths fail.
My attempt to be a smartass back to fail failed

*Hangs head in shame*

You would have fared much better if you had actually listed the pairings
I wasn't alive to help you out, so I'll do it now.

Correct math is:
/2\
\4/ = 6
if you exclude yourself
and
/3\
\5/ = 10
if you include yourself in the pairings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_coefficient

[Shadow Dancer]

*LOL* about this btw:

Haven't mentioned pairing cause I can't quite tell

could be

enigma/dp
enigma/bs
enigma/Ben
dp/bs
dp/Ben
Ben/bs

So far, so correct...

If you include yourself the possibilities goes up from 3! to 4!

I'll just assume you are too lazy to type out all 24 scum pairs in that situation then.

And later:

Actually nvm my maths fail.
My attempt to be a smartass back to fail failed

*Hangs head in shame*

You would have fared much better if you had actually listed the pairings
I wasn't alive to help you out, so I'll do it now.

Correct math is:
/2\
\4/ = 6
if you exclude yourself
and
/3\
\5/ = 10
if you include yourself in the pairings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_coefficient

[Shadow Dancer]