Newbie 1012 - Game over

[Excedrin]

Vote Count

raymondkurayami (2): nameloc1986, Rockerboo
bhavitgoyal (3): silverbullet999, Dickov, Enigma
Dickov (1): Shadow Dancer
Rockerboo (1): bhavitgoyal

not voting: raymondkurayami, andrew94
alive: 9 majority: 5
D1 Deadline: AD 2010-10-05 04:06:00.000 PM (Tue) Pacific Daylight Time

[andrew94]

2 questions:

1. When is the deadline for Day 1?

2. I'm confused about rule #6 under Voting,...... . When you say 1/2 the original number of votes do you mean like (this round i.e.) 4 will required? And in case of a tie, wouldn't they both have the same number of votes (so they both have the required number) ??

How long does day rounds on here usually last?

andrew, I assume this was the P5&6 you were talking about? If so, I fail to see how this makes me anymore mafia than a newbie to this site/online mafia.

bro, all you explained was the fact that you like to be leadership role.
you have not explained your seemingly harmless questions. you have shown yourself to be a rreasonable scumhunter with a good grfasp ontactics, yet you do not know deadline and votes. this just screams out to be a scum asking 'yo tell me when i can hammer' or 'yo i cant wait to kill at night'

Didn't I just say that I am new to this site as well as online mafia? Why else would I ask these questions? And if I were scum, how would this benefit me as scum? I'm gonna ask this again, HOW IS THIS SCUMMISH BEHAVIOR? I just wanted to know when deadline was. PERIOD. END OF STORY.

Now wait a minute, didn't you just jump all over silver's back for pursuing "small" behavior? And whether or not this is "small" behavior, I DID explain myself, and you still keep pursuing it. If you're a townie, then you're definitely looking in all the wrong places.

i already explained how it is scummy.
also dont say 'if you are townie, this is how you play' NO BRO i play my own way, weird or not, normal or not, it is not your place to tell me what to do

[andrew94]

OK have been reading doing stuff being busy and i finally have time to post:

Ok so still on bhavit for sticking on raymond and may i ask why you voted me?
I then changed my mind and said i would scum hunt and also for someone ppl i may be lurking but i have to say i am either reading, catching up or i am just stopping by quickly.....i am also a person that doesnt post much unless he has something new.

Leaning toward raymond too still for several reasons that i have already said.

Also i am leaning to andrew too for suspecting ppl cause they asked for the deadline....

For now

Vote:raymondkurayami

firstly, all your 4 posts have the same point
secondary, for bhav sticking to raymond, shouldnt you vote for bhav? are u scared to put him on L1? scummy bro
also, suspecting ppl cos they asked for the deadline is suspicious now?
man fluff

vote rockerboo

quit active lurking

[Enigma]

Hehe... Enigma is also struggling to keep up with this game...

So true. All my posts tend to be catch up posts referring to content several pages back.
Honestly it is the biggest mind fuck reading and understanding alot of the posts.
Several have very weak logical reasoning which I need to read several times just to grasp and the heaps more are just a wild goose chase going around in circles requiring me to constantly have to reread the whole page just to see where they are coming from.

Not saying discussion is bad, but too much unproductive discussion isn't necessary helpful to town. That, and it confuses the crap out of any replacements if they are town (from personal experience!). Wall posts aren't necessary a pro-town effort.

[andrew94]

i totally agree with the last statement.

firstly, when quoting include name of person
then only qote relevant parts.

i just hate seeing walls (thats why i revenge haha_

[silverbullet999]

Andrew post 261

Read...
Do It

[nameloc1986]

i already explained how it is scummy.
also dont say 'if you are townie, this is how you play' NO BRO i play my own way, weird or not, normal or not, it is not your place to tell me what to do

Dude, I'm not trying to tell you HOW to play, I'm just saying that if I'm assuming your townie then you won't find anything with me. Honestly, it's just a believe me or not statement.

You said it was scummy because it SEEMED like I was trying to know when I could hammer but you also said yourself it could be just a newbie thing. So no it's not NECESSARILY scummy, it COULD be scummy. And guess what, it IS a newbie thing. (believe me or not) I just fail to realize why you are pursuing this when there are other people posting and saying suspicious things.

(BTW I type in all caps when I want to emphasis on something or get my point across. I just prefer doing it that way rather than bolding. I'm not trying to yell or anything. I have no offense against anyone in this game.)

[Enigma]

Anyways it seems that none of the experienced players, SE/IC's have gotten much heat so far today, including myself. Now I haven't played a newbie game for a while but I have a feeling many people are opting to attack weaker players, well actually all 3 of us (being me, silver, shadow) amongst everyone else are tunneling all the newbie players, where quite alot of the mistakes could just be genuine newbie misunderstandings.

Given we make up one third of the player base, it is likely that at one of us could be scum, maybe even two. But trying to outguess random ain't going to do anyone any favors but I just want to spend some time inciting discussion on a different topic, that is a break from the mindfuck/senseless arguing that is the past 10 pages, which I do believe will get excessive and hurt the town if it gets out of control.
Again, discussion is very good, but too much pointless arguing and bickering will hurt later in the game when rereading day 1 will be useful. Some people cbf (raises hand) and other's will just lose their sanity trying to decipher all the stuff that has gone on.

So I'm not discouraging everyone from posting, I'm just saying slow down, don't repeat yourself unless it's necessary and make what you are trying to convey clear and concise. Other people don't want to have to reread your post multiple times to guess what you are trying to say. Ohh and format your posts so we can actually take you in context, else just expect many people to skim over your arguments which you spent so much time making.

Here are my opinions on silver for now, if someone wants to do an ISO of me feel free.
ISO (Just viewing all the posts by a specific poster, post number's refer to isolated view, found at bottom of page).

#4, Suggests that lynching townies is acceptable and even productive. Personally, lynching townies should never be acceptable. Due care should be taken before committing to a hammer, and even 1 mislynch gives scum a huge advantage in terms of the majority power.

#5, You make several accusations but you never accuse anyone of being scum. You suggest to pressure people yet you decide to unvote even though you find several people suspicious as detailed in that post.

#6, I actually agree with bhavits approach to lurkers. I would actually wait for them to check in (else they would be replaced as done) before questioning them. Again, it's important to differentiate between lurkers, active lurkers and those who are V/LA which I mentioned in a previous post.

#8, I agree with your rebuttal about why they should substantiate their suspicions. Everyone should be doing that. What irk's me is that you suggest that you don't think the lurkers are scum, nor are you willing to consider the possibility that they may be right and one of the lurkers are indeed scum.

#9, I don't agree with your reasoning for voting bhavit, because his retort however weak, is also true. But I don't like the backflip on bhavit either.

#12, I think you have completely taken name out of context. He says other people, meaning people other than raymond. Moot point here.

#13-14, That's an awful lot of questions several of which are trivial and silly. Your lucky andrew answered them, because I most probably would have ignored most of them. And actually your questions don't even seem to be supporting scum hunting, just more an arrogant (pot kettle black I know) defense when someone points out a flaw.

So now, let's see how you respond to more prodding in your directions.

[Excedrin]

Vote Count

raymondkurayami (2): nameloc1986, Rockerboo
bhavitgoyal (3): silverbullet999, Dickov, Enigma
Dickov (1): Shadow Dancer
Rockerboo (2): bhavitgoyal, andrew94

not voting: raymondkurayami
alive: 9 majority: 5
D1 Deadline: AD 2010-10-05 04:06:00.000 PM (Tue) Pacific Daylight Time

[Shadow Dancer]

Given we make up one third of the player base, it is likely that at one of us could be scum, maybe even two.

Yeah, the same 58.333... % I already calculated for one scum among us. Eliminating me that leaves us with ~46.4% (13/28) that one of you two is scum and just 8.33...% (~7.14% eliminating me) that both scum are among us experienced players... Not very likely, searching newb scum is a promissing strategy. And so far I haven't found anything clearly scummy about any of you... And my plan to abuse RVS to put artificial pressure on silver just resulted in a rather pointless waggon.

But maybe you speculating about there being SE/IC scum means that actually

you

are scum... It certainly looks like the "catch me if you can" challenge I like to use as scum for personal entertainment purposes... But that's just

me

, so pure speculation...

[Shadow Dancer]

Sorry, I justt cannot get rid of the conviction that Dickov is scum. A vast majority of posts comes from a scummy POV.
i.e.:
- continuously trying to anticipate eventual critique against his arguments
- perceive votes (his own and other's) mainly as a means to discurage other's voting (OMGUS centered voting and vote perception)
- trying to discurage me from keping my vote on him by trying to defame it as an OMGUS vote in iso 11.
- trying to cover his slips by WIFOM arguments
- likes the ray waggon for the simple reason it's not him (self-centered/survival-oriented mindset) (iso 12)
- iso 14 looks a bit too much as if he tries to establish an opinion that "mafia will do this or that" with the aim to mark himslef as unsuspicious in that regard, and, streangely enough, he seems to be pretty sure that also both bhavit and ray aren't scum... The second paragraph ("[...]...any of the three of us could ACTUALLY be mafia[...]") relativate that impression a bit, but he could have added this paragraph later qhile revising his post.
- thinks of

being lynched

as mafia instead of lynching mafia (in iso 15)

Of course most of these points alone on their own would rather look like typical newb mistakes, but combining them and taking into consideration what might be his freudian slips I think you get a pretty strong overall picture of scummyness.

My second suspect would be Andrew right now, I did not like his framing attempt, but I want to see a bit more from him first.

FoS Andrew

[silverbullet999]

-Enigma

Your stuff followed by my retorts after each

#4, Suggests that lynching townies is acceptable and even productive. Personally, lynching townies should never be acceptable. Due care should be taken before committing to a hammer, and even 1 mislynch gives scum a huge advantage in terms of the majority power.|
How so? How does a confirmed townie hurt town? I'm not saying hammer like no tomorrow... which seems like what you are implying I said... but how does 1 mislynch of someone generally percieved scummy, change power to scum?

#5, You make several accusations but you never accuse anyone of being scum. You suggest to pressure people yet you decide to unvote even though you find several people suspicious as detailed in that post.|
Way to ignore my reasoning as I said "As I'm not sure who I suspect most right now."


#6, I actually agree with bhavits approach to lurkers. I would actually wait for them to check in (else they would be replaced as done) before questioning them. Again, it's important to differentiate between lurkers, active lurkers and those who are V/LA which I mentioned in a previous post.|
You need to read more bud... That wasn't the point I was making.

#8, I agree with your rebuttal about why they should substantiate their suspicions. Everyone should be doing that. What irk's me is that you suggest that you don't think the lurkers are scum, nor are you willing to consider the possibility that they may be right and one of the lurkers are indeed scum.
Wanna quote where I say I don't think any of the lurkers are scum?

#9, I don't agree with your reasoning for voting bhavit, because his retort however weak, is also true. But I don't like the backflip on bhavit either.
Again you miss the point that he suspected them in the first place..

#12, I think you have completely taken name out of context. He says other people, meaning people other than raymond. Moot point here.
He explained it... where's the harm in asking to determine if it's scum slip?

#13-14, That's an awful lot of questions several of which are trivial and silly. Your lucky andrew answered them, because I most probably would have ignored most of them. And actually your questions don't even seem to be supporting scum hunting, just more an arrogant (pot kettle black I know) defense when someone points out a flaw.
I'm lucky now? Thanks for the judgement... so do you believe andrew's point is valid?
Also seems your confusing me being arrogant with yourself. I'm the sarcastic asshole and apparently my sarcasim is wasted on you if you think the questions to andrew were simply trivial.

[andrew94]

dictionary framing- FABRICATING/ CREATING a piece of evidence to suggest that someone else is guilty

i have no created any fake evidence that points to him. i used something he said against him

[andrew94]

ur formats too confusing silver.
can u put them into 1 2 3 4

[silverbullet999]

ur formats too confusing silver.
can u put them into 1 2 3 4

Ummm

here it is... bolded is what you said... unbolded my reply

-AnDee
(your quote though I answer the stuff)

people's suspision change,

|Yes they do, but apparently name's didn't.

i dont think it was a mafia slip, i think it was more of a too much suspisions guy

|Not sure what this means...

what do u mean

|My first game (you can look it up in my wiki if you don't believe me) Nobody Special asked me a question and at the end of it he said Think Carefully. While this may mean nothing to you, this instantly set off alarms to me and I called him out as scum, with that being a minor threat like scum slip. Guess what? He was scum)

we are playing mafia

|Oh good!

crap analysis

|Crap analysis to poke into a potential scum slip ? (Granted I'll agree now that it's not... but where's the harm in asking?)

if you see, i am actually holding suspision to him as well. i am now also suspicious towards you

| Ok... and Ok... though you should pursue your suspicion on me and name a bit more... Vs just stating it

its not the fact that its a small detail, its the fact that you are making a big shit out of it and is basing almost your entire case on it.

| Hold up... case? I'm poking name to see if maybe it was a scum slip... and all of a sudden this is my whole case? Where did I vote name and shout to all that I Judge Silver have determined name to be scum? How also am I making a big shit out of it by just posting it once and asking about it? Me thinks someone is being a little over protective... I wonder why...

if you have other stuff on him, put it on

| Told you before I was poking him... If I did have other stuff on him would you also refute it?

i just answered them

|Good boy.. now answer these

[andrew94]

i dont know what you mean, if my suspisions change, than my suspision is no longer on A. therefore the person is suspect is not A, so his name changes

i meant he is overly suspicious of everything

use of meta is fail

fluff

harm= makes it seem like your actually doing something when your not

maybe if you stop hyperboling

you poking your head in= not wanting to be the master guy = scum trying to hide, just coming in, say something go out.

maybe depends

no more questions

[Shadow Dancer]

dictionary framing- FABRICATING/ CREATING a piece of evidence to suggest that someone else is guilty

i have no created any fake evidence that points to him. i used something he said against him

I am well aware about what "frame" means, thank you.
You take a newb who obviously has his first game and obviously doesn't get along on the site, yet, and present his newbie questions about deadlines (which,btw, as far as I remeber, our mod initially forgot to add to his votecounts) as scumtells.

That is pretty much what your definition means by "fabricating a false piece of evidence" (hairsplitting won't change that).

[Dickov]

@Shadow Dancer

Sorry, I justt cannot get rid of the conviction that Dickov is scum. A vast majority of posts comes from a scummy POV.
i.e.:
- continuously trying to anticipate eventual critique against his arguments
- perceive votes (his own and other's) mainly as a means to discurage other's voting (OMGUS centered voting and vote perception)
- trying to discurage me from keping my vote on him by trying to defame it as an OMGUS vote in iso 11.
- trying to cover his slips by WIFOM arguments
- likes the ray waggon for the simple reason it's not him (self-centered/survival-oriented mindset) (iso 12)
- iso 14 looks a bit too much as if he tries to establish an opinion that "mafia will do this or that" with the aim to mark himslef as unsuspicious in that regard, and, streangely enough, he seems to be pretty sure that also both bhavit and ray aren't scum... The second paragraph ("[...]...any of the three of us could ACTUALLY be mafia[...]") relativate that impression a bit, but he could have added this paragraph later qhile revising his post.
- thinks of

being lynched

as mafia instead of lynching mafia (in iso 15)

Of course most of these points alone on their own would rather look like typical newb mistakes, but combining them and taking into consideration what might be his freudian slips I think you get a pretty strong overall picture of scummyness.

My second suspect would be Andrew right now, I did not like his framing attempt, but I want to see a bit more from him first.

FoS Andrew

Point 1 : In what way is this scummy? How can it be scummy to predict the mindset of others you're debating with? How!?

Point 2 : OMGUS voting

initially

however if you look at the latest vote count, check out who I've attacked and voted for all this while compared with who that guy voted for? OMGUS? Maybe I'm selfish, maybe you guys define the end-game by writing a wiki and treating it as the mafia bible, but I have my own playstyle and if it challenges the gospel truth of the wiki then it's scummy?
E.g. Wiki says you shouldn't this or you shouldn't that because it's scummy. At the end of the day, who wrote the wiki? God? Or other experienced players like yourself?

Don't try to mould the meta-game to suit yourself thanks.

Point 3 : If I wanted to discourage you from voting for me would I use OMGUS as a reason? Bear in mind that the moment I say OMGUS, you will

NOT

retract your vote. Why?

Think about it, people call you out on OMGUS and you comply

; use your own standards to judge that action and tell me if that is scummy or not.

Point 4 : WIFOM? That's like the ad infinitum stuff right? How the hell have I infinitied anything? By the "If I were mafia, would I?" rhetoric?
You want honesty and when it's presented you don't accept it. Do I have a duty to please you in this game?

Point 5 : Yes, I'm a selfish player, I don't want to die after investing so much in the game. I must be scum. (See point 2)

Point 6 : Invalid. I don't think Bhavit is scum? Have you even read what I've posted? Also, to catch you out on your bullshit, you did a "3 amigoes" analogy with the SEs and IC of the game and how it's unlikely that you can't be mafia. Notice how you did exactly what I did when you said "eliminating myself from the equation...". Hypocritical scumslip much?

[Dickov]

@Shadow Dancer

You said it was Oppurtunistic.Scum.Mindset to take delight in Ray's wagon.
Is that really capitalizing on opportunity? I basically

defended

the guy by saying that anyone who voted for him is deluded with imagination.

I didn't take delight in anything. I had to measure out a certain neutrality in my posts. The moment I say I'm unhappy that he's leading lynchboards for the wrong reasons, it'll be called buddying and I'll be called scummy for that.
The moment I disclaim any attachment to Ray and his wagon, I'm showing O.S.M.
(And Yes, I think this is WIFOM ergo I am scum correct?)

Damned if you do/don't?

Consider the fact that for the first 8 pages, I lie low and absent-mindedly promote anti-town behavior (OMGUS, no lynch etc). I get called out on the bullshit by you and Enigma. Post page 8, I make a novice attempt at scumhunting and Enigma labels my hunting of Bhavit as a "pointless argument" yet champions discussion as the gold of the masses in later posts. Also....

Why risk an accidental quicklynch by some one who might just be an overstrained newb? That would be just horribly bad.

Looks like when playing the benelovent IC didn't work you quickly ditched it and started attacking the

overstrained newb

who just wouldn't do as he was told.

[silverbullet999]

-Andrew... the new VI

Wow... simply wow... congrats with your response I gladly give you the title you seek, you are now a VI in my book (or an SI...) Just keep that I around in either case.

i dont know what you mean, if my suspisions change, than my suspision is no longer on A. therefore the person is suspect is not A, so his name changes

Right... but the point was that name's didn't.. as he stated... he simple said other which filled us in and whomever else he mentioned in the latter post.

use of meta is fail

This is where you win the title. How the Fuck (sorry if anyone is offended?) do you get off that I'm magically using meta now?! I state a case in one of my own games where the person said Think Carefully after one of his questions and immediately I was suspicious of this and called him out to be scum... which he was. Something as Little as saying Think Carefully added him out. My point being small slips can help amazingly in determining scum. This is not using meta... using meta would be me saying well normally when i'm town.. i scumhunt and i've been scumhunting so i'm town Or Name is normally quiet when he's town... he's trying to act like a leader therefore he must be scum. I DID NOT AT ALL USE META. Learn definitions before using them.

fluff

Called sarcasm... this isn't just fluff as the post contains different things... again the dictionary is your friend.

harm= makes it seem like your actually doing something when your not

So apparently I shouldn't ask anything at all and stay quiet not looking for scum slips? Or should I have pushed name apparently on what I don't consider to be a scum slip but was just exploring to see if it was one?

maybe if you stop hyperboling

Could you quote where I keep doing this? I really don't think you know the definition of it. Also is this supposed hyperbole now not scummy? Also my hyperbole is somehow preventing you from pursuing your suspects? How's that work?

you poking your head in= not wanting to be the master guy = scum trying to hide, just coming in, say something go out.

No it's called not being reckless or overconfident... If I was I'd call him out as scum... but as it stands I'm uncertain so I poke him and see how he reacts.. and then continue from there. What am I hiding in poking name with a simple question?

maybe depends

So you would defend for him? Nice... that's a truly pro-town move! (SARCASM)

no more questions

Fluff (oh my god i'm like you!)

[bhavitgoyal]

I decided to ISO raymond.

#6 He says that usually the 3rd or 4th person to bandwagon is the mafia.
#7 He replied would he really be that stupid to lynch someone when I said that mafia could lynch someone and then make an excuse.
#9 He says that he has no scum partner.
#10 He says how could he know who is the mafia.
#11 He says that he is getting annoyed of the question and asks me to stop pressuring him.
#13 He states that picking him is bad.
#14 He says that picking him is very bad for town.
#15 He defends himself by saying that he was just FOSing the people who bandwagonned 3rd or 4th and that by losing he meant that if the town lynchs him then it would be LyLo situation on day 3 if they lynch incorrectly twice.
#16 He asks what can be the chances of a lurker being a mafia.
#17 He says if he was a mafia he would have never said that would he really be that stupid to do that.
#19 He questions Rockerboo for changing his FoS to me from him in just 5 posts.

Here are my views on the posts.

#6 To me it seems that he was trying to take attention away from him because he was the second to bandwagon silverbullet
#7 Here the post states that he is the mafia or he did not use the right wording.
#9,10,11 I think here he started feeling nervous of my questions and therefore even asked me to stop questioning me.
#13,14.15 I dont like this type of behaviour. By reading this post, I only think that he is the mafia pretending to be a townie saying that it is the towns loss if they lynch him.
#16 Again he tries to divert the attention away from him by questioning the lurkers
#17 Again by reading this post I can only think he is a mafia pretending to be a townie.
#19 Tries again to divert the attention away from him by questioning RockerBoo

Raymond has posted 20 posts where he just says that it is the town's loss to lynch him, tries to divert the attention away from him and answers my questions. So I think Raymond is a mafia so VOTE: Raymond

[Shadow Dancer]

@Dickov: First of: Again: Most of your actions are not scummy per se, but looking at your overall behaviour I can see a pretty strong general image - and that is a stronger and more reliable scumtell then any narrow minded singular scumslip you might be looking for (and that some people like to dump into useless wiki articles).

Point 1 : In what way is this scummy? How can it be scummy to predict the mindset of others you're debating with? How!?

You know you are making bad arguments and still bloat them out - maybe because you consider fake activity a good town tell.
And also alleged self-critique might spare you one vote or another - or you might have thought so.

Point 2 : OMGUS voting

initially

however if you look at the latest vote count, check out who I've attacked and voted for all this while compared with who that guy voted for? OMGUS?

You OMGUS vote silver to L-1.
You OMGUS vote Enigma.
You threaten to OMGUS vote any one who votes you.
You perceive my vote as OMGUS (or at least pretend - i.e. lie about it - to).
All in all you seem to perceive votes mainly for their OMGUS quality and as means to discurage others.

Maybe I'm selfish, maybe you guys define the end-game by writing a wiki and treating it as the mafia bible, but I have my own playstyle and if it challenges the gospel truth of the wiki then it's scummy?
E.g. Wiki says you shouldn't this or you shouldn't that because it's scummy. At the end of the day, who wrote the wiki? God? Or other experienced players like yourself?

Don't try to mould the meta-game to suit yourself thanks.

This is really lame. You're trying to reduce my arguments ad absurdum by defaming mafia as religion, the wiki as a wholy book and us players as ignorant followers? And ergo anything that found it's way into the wiki one way or another is bullshit?
I did not even reference the wiki, btw. And I certainly do not try to crush people with "intelligent sounding" terms as you do.
If you wanna call on your right to play the game as you please you have to concede the same right to every one else. And having the right to do something always includes the right to fall on your nose with it. That's called learning, you can just either ignore it or see it as chance...
And yo should not accuse others of "moulding the meta-game to suit oneself", because you are right now trying to do just that in

your

favour. Basically you seem to have the POV that everything that you do is right, every one else is wrong and antagonism is not allowed. That is self-centered, ignorant and self-righteous.
No one expects you to blindly adopt any stereotypical, conformistic "wiki meta". The wiki can be but a help to new players, but only if you read it with a critical mind and do not follow it blindly.
To make one thing clear: IMO a lot of the stuff in the wiki is just a shitload'a crap, most of it is common sense.
Your "defense" is really going nowhere with me. Sorry, dude.

point 3 : If I wanted to discourage you from voting for me would I use OMGUS as a reason? Bear in mind that the moment I say OMGUS, you will

NOT

retract your vote. Why?

Think about it, people call you out on OMGUS and you comply

; use your own standards to judge that action and tell me if that is scummy or not.

You tried to discurage my vote by defaming it. Now after failing you try to cover your tracks with more WIFOM. Just realize that this is not a valid argument.
Saying "if I where mafia/wanted to achieve 'this', would I be really as stupid as to do 'that'?" is no justification for 'that'.
All I know is that you were so stupid to do "that", tell me: If you wouldn't be so stupid as scum, would you be as townie?

Point 4 : WIFOM? That's like the ad infinitum stuff right? How the hell have I infinitied anything? By the "If I were mafia, would I?" rhetoric?
You want honesty and when it's presented you don't accept it. Do I have a duty to please you in this game?

WIFOM 0th grade: I'll do this.
WIFOM 1st grade: You'll think I'll do this, so I'll do that.
WIFOM 2nd grade: You'll think I think you'll think I'll do this and so do that, hence I'll do this...
[... ad infinitum]
Or something in this sense.

You do not need to really progress this ad infinitum to realize WIFOM is more often then not just a complete null-statement, hence fluff, and should be avoided for argument-purposes.

Point 5 : Yes, I'm a selfish player, I don't want to die after investing so much in the game. I must be scum. (See point 2)

Some plain facts for you:
- mafia is a team game, even if you do not know your team members as town, ego trips are counterproductive.
- playing town and doing it well exposes you to a significantly increased risk of being killed by scum.
- your first, foremost and only intent should be to track down the scummy bastards and do anything that is required to achieve that goal.
- this is but a game - no one is really going to be killed or harmed in any way ;P
- it does not matter for your WINCON if you are dead or alive if the game ends.
- if fulfilling your WINCON requires of you to sacrifice yourself, then do it (again: No pointless suicide play!).
The mere aim od surviving does in no way justify any means (unless you are asurvivor - no, there are none in this game...).

Point 6 : Invalid. I don't think Bhavit is scum? Have you even read what I've posted?

Yes:

It's

good

though

because

currently because of an "imagined" scumslip,

you're leading the lynch board.

[...]

If both of you were townies, which you strongly suggest, why would a waggon on any of you be better than the other? Do not deny that your argument is purely self-centered.

Also, to catch you out on your bullshit, you did a "3 amigoes" analogy with the SEs and IC of the game and how it's unlikely that you can't be mafia. Notice how you did exactly what I did when you said "eliminating myself from the equation...". Hypocritical scumslip much?

People (in this case Enigma) tend to talk a lot about "odds" and justify their decissions with them while in fact they have no realistic idea what the odds are. So I like to provide a little reality check from time to time.
And about the "three amigos"

fl

stuff. Take any group of three players. It should be obvious that any person inside that group has more information about that group then most people outside, just because he has full information about himself.
More generally: Probabilities are different for evey person in the game because they do not suffer from uncertainty about themselves.
What does that mean? - Of course I know that I am town, so from my point of view I can eliminate all the possibilities where I am mafia from the problem.
Since you can or cannot believe me, I also provided the general numbers. Those are only valid for a neutral observer, but for no player inside the game, though.
If you doubt my numbres - better prove me wrong.
If you do not understand the numbers - ask.
Everything else is just pointless misdirection.

[Shadow Dancer]

@bhavit: All the things you listed look more like typical newbie helplessness to me. I wouldn't consider ray a D1 lynch right now. He should have the chance to become more familiar with the game, let's see how he reacts then.

[Shadow Dancer]

@rocker: I'd like you to provide some analysis on all the players, just so we know where you stand.

[Shadow Dancer]

@raymond: bhavit is right, though, you've been rather diffident with your opinion so far. There's quite some stuff going on. What is your opinion about andrew and Dickov, for example? Who would be your top suspect right now? Whom would you vote, whom, if any one, would you be willing to lynch?