Newbie 1012 - Game over

[nameloc1986]

There's no correct or single-optimal way of playing.

QFT!

[PogoStick]

maybe you should be looking to get run up (but not lynched) just so scum don't nightkill you as a posisble PR.. It's all WIFOm. There's no correct or single-optimal way of playing.

you didn't provide your win loss record yet.

[Excedrin]

So whyt is not clear to you? You explained it yourself: CCing will burn the cop - without any investigation made.
A fake claiming scum is already dead, even if the real cop is killed he is proven to be scum.
So the cop does not need to worry and can just get investigations in.
If he hits the other scum on N1 it's GG
It he gets to townies, who preferably stay alive, and claims on D3 it's also GG for scum.

Cop is just a tremendously powerful role - and scum would do anything to eliminate a cop - fake claiming cop to provoke a counter claim is one of the obvious things to do, a cop is such a huge danger for scum that eliminating it quickly for the cost of one mafia member can be really beneficial to scum. But a cop can easily deny that by not CCing.
As a side note, scum fake claiming cop is much stronger if there are multiple mafia members, so one lost member does not preponderate that much. With just two members in the newbie setup it is more like a all-in move.
If you want an interesting example, look at newbie 958 were I sacrifice myself on D2 to draw out the cop for my partner to kill.

I disagree with just about everything you've said regarding town fake claiming.

"cop is extremely important" -> in F11 this is reasonable, in most setups it's not (godfather, miller, framer, insane cops etc). It's also easy to analyse possible outcomes. If there's a cop and they CC, scum instantly knows which setup it is (if it's 2 goon, they know there's no doc, they kill real cop, fake cop is lynched next day, if it's goon+rb they know there is a doc, so they'll block one cop (probably the right one) and kill someone they think is doc (probably better than 20% chance on day 1)). So in either case both town PRs are effectively shutdown.
If there's a cop who doesn't CC, scum may draw the wrong conclusion about which setup it is. If it's 2 goon, they assume there's no doctor, kill the fake cop, real cop gets an inspection. If it's goon + rb, they assume there's a doctor, and possibly kill the real cop while trying to hit doctor (who is protecting fake cop). So, there's basically one outcome.

So even in the limited case of F11, it only leads to a protown outcome around 50% of the times where the real cop doesn't CC (slightly less because of cases where the real cop is NKd and slightly more incase it's the doc setup and doc prevents a NK by protecting the fake cop). If the cop is extremely important, then claiming cop mainly increases the chance that he'll be outed or killed.

But, Cops aren't that important. Roleblockers and godfathers and all the rest exist specifically to make cops weak, the reason is, strong roles make shallow games.

The second problem is, when you fake claim as town, you're preventing yourself from being lynched, which is slightly protown, since technically, you're preventing a mislynch. And yes, if you're not lynched, then maybe scum or a worse townie (tho who's worse than a townie who lies about their role?) will be. Finally, it goes to night, scum kills someone, hopefully you, then the game moves on but with town power roles intact / protected / etc. That seems great! Except that, lynching townies accidentally is still useful to town. In later days you can look at who voted for who and why. It's good to remove the worst town members anyway as scum has to progressively improve their behavior in order to blend in.

If scum nightkills the fake claimer, then yes, they wasted their NK that would have been trying to hit a PR. But, it's not a positive outcome. At the cost of derailing a mislynch wagon, you still removed the only person from the game that you're sure is town (yourself). If scum decided to kill someone else, then the WIFOM that's created is usually too much and results in you being lynched the next day anyway.

There are times in some setups to fake claim (usually partial claim instead of totally fake claiming) as town, but there's basically zero reason to do so in F11 unless you're scum and trying to avoid being lynched or out some town PRs.

[Shadow Dancer]

I do not say anything about town fake claiming in that quote

But that mods do all kind of things up to the bastardry of unknown sanities to weaken cops only proves how powerful cop as a role is.

I know my gambit was high risk high gain and to town's disadvantage in the vanilla setup that we happened to be in.

I would also never fake claim as VT on any other day than D1. Especially claiming fake investigation results as townie would totally defy the purpose.

[silverbullet999]

*rolls eyes to above*
fake claim is more likely to hurt town.
that is all

[Enigma]

I know it's definitely not in context of your quotes but I actually didn't think you would claim cop after:

I mean there

are

uses for a cop softclaim by a VT on D1 - NK-baiting is a valid town tactic. But I absolutely doubt that Andrew would pull

that

off. Hence I do not really know what to make of it, but softclaiming both cop and scum is defefinitely anti-town, if not scummy.
Ray on the other hand seems to have flaked out. I would propose to have him replayced and pressure the hell out of his replacement on D2 and go for an andrew lynch right now.

Unvote. Vote Andrew

@mod: I request a replacement on ray's slot ASAP.

OMG. DP claims more heavily anti town things he's done. Lynch him already! (Note to self: And do not believe any DP claims at all...)

Like this game was the only one were some (supposed) townie (to make this clear: I do not even call Andrew supposed townie, I find him pretty suspicious) ever did something bloodcurdingly stupid.
Just some examples I have seen myself:
- fakeclaiming cop as VT with a guilty on another VT

And I just was under the impression you had a grudge against DP due to the numerous times he has fake claimed as town. XD

The fake claim was a bit unexpected I must say.

[Enigma]

Anyways overall, this game was quite enjoyable.

The activity was great (maybe a bit scary at times on D1) and there was good discussion and interaction. The SE/IC crew were probably a bit hyper active (this includes andrew and godz)
Disappointing to see D2 D3 (especially D2) but that's ok. Also disappointing to see most the initial newbies flake out. Thanks for not flaking out replacements.

Most newbie games I see involve way too much lurking and is quite painful to play at times. Fun to play with peeps who have a good understanding of game mechanics.
It's also nice to actually have a QT where people actually talk. Most QT's I've had are rather bland and scum don't say anything making post game reading quite boring.

[Shadow Dancer]

The gambit is debatable, I admit that. When I did it I had not compltetely thought it through and I still have no fixed opinion about it.
My problem is more about players like Hop who basically defy any gambit play by advocating their narrow minded understanding of game theory.

Anyway the real problem of this game lies elsewhere - I allowed myself to become carried away in that pointless discussion with silver with the final result that this game descended into utter chaos at the end of D1. As I see it that is where I really let this town down. (Good move by Enigma by the way to play the voice of reason in that situation).

[Shadow Dancer]

Ah, that's what you meant, Enigma. No, I did not know that DP has a history of fake claims. I just hated him for his performance in perpetual MyLo. That game was flooded with VIs - and DP was probably the worst of them - only that he feigned VI with a purpose - don't ask me which...

[Enigma]

Hhaha I was loving it watching all your arguments and chiping in as a pro town saying it was not beneficial to town and calling it town vs scum The pointless discussion actually allowed scum more control over the game.

Except I kinda got stuck into a silver argument too For some reason it's a bit hard to resist lol. I think strategically it would have been beneficial to avoid it.

[andrew94]

silver agrees with everyone- retard

[andrew94]

edit: argues*

[Shadow Dancer]

*LOL* about this btw:
[quote"Hop"]Haven't mentioned pairing cause I can't quite tell

could be

enigma/dp
enigma/bs
enigma/Ben
dp/bs
dp/Ben
Ben/bs[/quote]
So far, so correct...

If you include yourself the possibilities goes up from 3! to 4!

I'll just assume you are too lazy to type out all 24 scum pairs in that situation then.

And later:

Actually nvm my maths fail.
My attempt to be a smartass back to fail failed

*Hangs head in shame*

You would have fared much better if you had actually listed the pairings
I wasn't alive to help you out, so I'll do it now.

Correct math is:
/2\
\4/ = 6
if you exclude yourself
and
/3\
\5/ = 10
if you include yourself in the pairings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_coefficient

[Shadow Dancer]

*LOL* about this btw:

Haven't mentioned pairing cause I can't quite tell

could be

enigma/dp
enigma/bs
enigma/Ben
dp/bs
dp/Ben
Ben/bs

So far, so correct...

If you include yourself the possibilities goes up from 3! to 4!

I'll just assume you are too lazy to type out all 24 scum pairs in that situation then.

And later:

Actually nvm my maths fail.
My attempt to be a smartass back to fail failed

*Hangs head in shame*

You would have fared much better if you had actually listed the pairings
I wasn't alive to help you out, so I'll do it now.

Correct math is:
/2\
\4/ = 6
if you exclude yourself
and
/3\
\5/ = 10
if you include yourself in the pairings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_coefficient

[Enigma]

I think I'll stick with my flux flows and Fourier and Complex analysis.

Much easier

[Shadow Dancer]

[silverbullet999]

Andy... don't get me started with you... lmao

[nameloc1986]

Yeah, I got to say this game was pretty fun even with all the fail. Not bad for my first on-site game. Too bad I didn't make it past N1 though!

[andrew94]

dude hop was supposed to hammer himself,

[silverbullet999]

and you would have been night killed... thus how would that have helped at all?

[andrew94]

nah, i wouldnt have been nightkilled

[silverbullet999]

*looks at your post* *then looks at mine*

Andrew... do you read posts..

[andrew94]

they would kill the cop and rb me

right...

[Enigma]

they would kill the cop and rb me

right...

He speaks the truth. We (I) would keep andrew alive just because he is a possible mislynch and helps confuse the town with his andrew-like arguments.

[PogoStick]

dude hop was supposed to hammer himself,

town doesn't self hammer