Mini 861: Hellsing Mafia - (Game Over!)

[Chaco]

Yo.

Random Vote: Shotty to the Body

Very interesting name, I like it.

[Chaco]

of which 90% of my total games I was lynched day 1, 100% of the time I was town

Not something I'd be bragging about. That's just me though.

[Chaco]

So it would seem, kikuchiyo.

[Chaco]

Actually, that would be scummy if it was to end RVS. Rather, artificially end it.

How would ending the RVS be scummy? Or, as you say, artificially. There is no required length to the RVS.

[Chaco]

EBWOP: I was reading and didn't see that Archon had asked something similar already. My bad.

[Chaco]

Correct. Or, rather, the length is loosely expressed as "until someone accidentally screws up". At least, that's my view. An artificial ending caused by a self vote is one I tend to try to ignore. If they claim they were trying to end then my ears perk up.

Mhm, however, some players do not like the RVS at all and feel it is pointless to have one. Would your ears perk if a type of player such as that were present?

[Chaco]

Alright, Forbiddan. (Also, a side question. Do you have a preference on what you want your name shortened as? Some people gripe when I shorten it to things they do not like.)

The problem with ending the RVS so early is we did not get an insight on every single player. Prematurely ending the RVS allows players and mostly scum to just hop on BW with no questions asked. If the RVS had been allowed to run a little longer, we would of maybe seen some interesting votes and reasons for them from EVERYBODY. Then we could of acted accordingly.

I disagree with your post Saber. It doesn't seem well thought out. I don't understand your logic behind: "players and scum to just hop on BW with no questions asked". You do realize that this would be taking place after the RVS? So you'd think that there would be no questions asked if a bandwagon were started right now?

Doesn't make much sense to me.

[Chaco]

Now really what I meant, Saber. Elaborate upon this please. What you just gave entails wagoning during the RVS, but this quote entails after the RVS:

Prematurely ending the RVS allows players and mostly scum to just hop on BW with no questions asked.

Just because this has piqued my interest now...

Unvote;Vote: Kairyuu

[Chaco]

Well, what interested me was the title of the most recent vote count. I just wanted to see how that changed with more votes on Kairyuu.

[Chaco]

I don't want to lynch him. I just wanted to see what the next title would be with more votes on him.

[Chaco]

I'll remove my vote once the next vote count occurs.

Looker, you believe placing a vote on the mod is pushing for a No Lynch? It was a title for the vote count. It said lynching a being that is not part of the game will result in a no lynch. That doesn't mean that the mod is not in the game.

[Chaco]

I would have to say that I think Archon is town. The reason being most scum would not want to draw attention to themselves. I have self voted for myself in RVS as town, so I can see Archon doing it too.

Were you attempting Fong's gambit?

Also, I feel you are pushing a read too fast. We've barely started.

[Chaco]

Indeed, I did notice. But what I say still stands.

[Chaco]

Saber, why are you mimicking what I said I would do many times?

I'll remove my vote once the next vote count occurs

As said previously

Unvote: Kairyuu

[Chaco]

Okay, well what you've just done contradicts a latter statement:

Looker: when I start to see scum vibes coming from somebody, then I'll switch my vote.

So why continue with a random vote now?

[Chaco]

Vote: Saberwolf

Joking or not.

[Chaco]

There's a time for jokes, and a time not to. All you've done is joked and contradicted yourself. Spamming up a game is not helpful.

[Chaco]

Ok, chaco, forbiddan, and kikuchiyo are you only voting saber/me for the jokes we made? If so that seems like a very horrible reason and I will give my FoS out to you for that. If not I want all of the reasons you have for voting us.

Well first off, as I said, there's a time for joking and a time not to. I believe we've passed the point for joking. Saber also is not being helpful in the slightest. It seems when we "went out" of RVS the claw is attempting to drag is backward. So, what I'm getting at is; Saber is not helping the game progress, but rather regress. So I am happy with my vote for the time being.

[Chaco]

I invite you to look at Saber in Iso, and compare content to contradictions and joke posts.

[Chaco]

With what little has been done so far, I cannot form an opinion such as that. At this point, it is more neutral standings. Along with those who are proving detrimental to town.

[Chaco]

Detrimental to town would have to be Saber alone at this time. You have joked, however, you have posted other content. Where as Saber is just now coming around on, let's call it page 6. (End of Page 5)

No it doesn't really. I have played with him before, and can recognize differences in his play and meta off of current games.

[Chaco]

This game shot into activity during my nap.

First off: Isn't this supposed to be a slightly bastard modded game?

@Amished: I have watched Hellsing.

@Net: Your claim is believable.

@All: I'm going to read better now before posting more player specific thoughts.

[Chaco]

Blegh, been busy with school the past two day preparing for break. But I'm good to go now.

I still like my vote on Saber after these pages though, and what Doom just said was indecisive and very easy to back out on.

FoS

More to come.

[Chaco]

I'll be catching up in the next bit.

[Chaco]

After reading through and getting caught up finally, as I've been promising for days. Which apologize for, by the way. I'm really liking my vote on Saberwolf. So here's the post.

when that I was saying that it was kinda being smartass to chaco, because he questioned me in a way that clearly came across as chaco stating that he had no belief of bunny being scum, thus questioning my vote change.

Doombunny: this is your cue to act exceedingly scummy

No, never did I come off as Bunny not being scum.

as far as I see it, I'm being voted for because of a joke I made.

Spam master.

I HAVE NO META!!!!!

at the very least, there is no way you can use what little we have and make a claim either way based on meta.

You say this although you meta Kanowa.

EBWOP: I find it insulting for you to say I have meta, when my whole purpose on MS has been to avoid making one, and then what's even worse is the fact that you apply it to my mood, and not my actual scumhunting abilities.

AtoE.

But ok, I'll give you a chance...come on, we're both online right now, lets collectively analize the game so far, and explore other parts too.

Buddying.

Essentially all Saber does is flip flop around try to get in the good graces of players. I am very satisfied with my vote.

[Chaco]

Why doombunny over Saber? Personally, I am fine with either, but would prefer Saber over doombunny.

[Chaco]

As awesome as it is, not worthy of my vote switching over. So it will stay.

[Chaco]

Well, Saber is my first choice, but DB is also fine. And that is a good point on Doom, however I still stick to Saber being my first choice.

[Chaco]

I have two option considering Saber:

(/Number 1) He is scum.

(/Number 2) He has a post restriction where he must vote a different player each time someone says something about him.

How was that for a joke, guys?!

But on the reals, you're flipping like crazy.

[Chaco]

What is the likelihood of scum voting their scumpartner right off bat? As in the RVS?

Higher than you think. Scum will sometimes vote their scumpartner in the RVS to bus them and defend themselves later.

It's an incredibly weak form of defense though, and can easily be seen through.

As such though, connections be seen with it, however as Amished has said focus on one scum first and then focus on connections.

[Chaco]

Well, if they do, it would be a pathetic attempt. Not saying they wouldn't, just saying we'd be on them.

[Chaco]

Things have become rather stagnant.

Where the hell is Kairyuu with our new page vote count? Slacker.

-insert excuse about 2 exams 1 paper, and 3 extensive homework assignments due within the next few days-

[Chaco]

Don't sweat it.

[Chaco]

To the other 4 (forb, kiku, shotty, and chaco): would you consider voting the other if necessary? Is your current vote the one you think will produce the most information with a scumflip?

Fine with either.

[Chaco]

You're replacing out for tunneling? Weak shit dude.

[Chaco]

Proxy votes? Lol. I actually think the best play is to go ahead and lynch Saber.

[Chaco]

Yeah, Saber is the play today.

[Chaco]

I believe we did decide to lynch instead of getting a replacement Doom.

[Chaco]

Here's me thoughts on the deal, Saber took a dive of activity once everyone started scrutinizing him and then a day or so later he decided to replace out. We'll be getting nothing from the replacement but "Don't kill me I'm [insert role claim]!". Because he will not know Saber's motives, and we are already so close to a lynch on him. I believe the best play we can do is just lynch Saber and see where that takes us.

[Chaco]

Yep, and also, getting the replacement will be a mess of mucky WIFOM.

[Chaco]

I do not believe he can claim for the player, rather make it a requirement of Saber to replace out by claiming? Because, I agree, we don't want exhaust our one replacement if he's going to get lynched after claiming.

[Chaco]

I believe that's l-2 now.

[Chaco]

So, it seems we have a decision to make guys, as we are divided on the stance we are taking.

We need to confirm soon that we are either going to; 1) Lynch Saber and do not get a replacement, or 2) Get MafiaSSK as a replacement and then presumably go after Doombunny I guess.

Personally, I'm up for Saber. But I'd be willing to change as previously said.

I'd like to hear Forbiddan, Net, and Looker's thoughts.

[Chaco]

That's what I was actually thinking, Amished. Go for doom and if he flips accordingly vig Saber. Otherwise, I doubt we'd want to waste the vig shot.

So I guess, what I'll do here is. . .

Unvote; Vote: Doombunny

[Chaco]

No one on N1. It'd be a wasted blind shot.

[Chaco]

What's your opinion on non-limited vigs then?

Not to endanger town unless they are sure of their shot.

[Chaco]

Well, I mean a better thought out shot. Shooting blindly has a very low success rate, and a higher rate of lessening towns numbers. Not advised at all. And being sure as vig? You can't be 100% sure, but you can have a better idea than just

"Oh PLAYERNAME, played a bit scummy today! Shoot: PLAYERNAME.

. . . .PLAYERNAME, the BLAHBLAH townie, has been murdered"

[Chaco]

He is scummy enough, I just think we should look at the downsides here. We could potentially lose 3 townies in a window of one night and day phase. That is not good at all. So, upon flip, I saw we should shoot the other. If not, wait. Because that will put us in a horrid position if both flipped town and then chalk up the mafias night kill as well and we're, well to put it in good terms, fucked.

And Shotty, that's what I'd like to do. But it seemed like that wasn't going to happen.

[Chaco]

@Kairyuu: Fuzzy posted not to long ago, he must've not responded to the PM though.

Hence why I said he posted and wasn't being replaced.

Alright, I have tried catching up and it was very hard, but I have finally gotten through everything. Personally, I am not completely sold on Doombunny, but I haven't done an iso-read because I was just trying to catch up with the interactions in the game, so we will see what happens when I do that, but I don't like how Saber started out joking and really never got into the game it seemed. Sure he was getting a lot of flack for his joking, but I think he could have tried a bit harder. Going through the thread a few times, and i really believe that Saber is the lynch for the day, so with that,

Vote: Saber

Actually, after re-reading this page again, Doombunny seems to have flipped to the easy lynch now that the pressure is off him and that really doesn't sit well with me. I am gonna go back and do that iso on him right now, but for now,

unvote

Vote: Doombunny

[Chaco]

And, back to Saber we go.

Unvote; Vote: Saber

[Chaco]

No, Jesters do not have to be lynched D1 to win.

Also, I understand what you're saying as far as people assuming scum are powerless. But the only scum powers that would really effect that are: Busdriver and Strongman.

Busdriver could redirect the targets, and Strongman would survive the kill.

[Chaco]

Because, I felt as if we weren't going to get the Saber lynch. So I switched over to you. You both are scummy to me, it's just that Saber is scummier. And the cop out really didn't put him anymore in my good graces.

And let's stop directing the vig, as someone said.

[Chaco]

Nah, I'd still hammer you. But I'd just rather lynch Saber. Either way, I'd go for both of you.

[Chaco]

I still think we should only get rid of the other flip dependent, otherwise we lose to much in a one complete day cycle.

[Chaco]

Considering who we lynch, Saber or Doom, we should not kill the other unless that one flips scum. Otherwise, we'd have 3 dead, or more, in one Day/Night cycle.

[Chaco]

No, I'm saying it's too much to lose in one day. Especially if they both flip town. We're pretty much shit outta' luck if that happens.

[Chaco]

Apparently, you don't wouldn't losing 3 townies in one day. It's not worth doing, and I don't see why you continue to do it. That is extraordinarily ill advised, and is a horrid play.

[Chaco]

I understand what you're saying and have known this, but it does cut our time down as well. Is it worth the cut? I don't think it is.

[Chaco]

I'd rather not have 3 roles, or possibly more, known on D1.

Also, Amished, fine whatever. I still don't like it.

[Chaco]

But *why*? Do you not agree with my logic? Specifically my point about vigging a townie later in the game rather than now?

It's not that I don't agree with your logic, it just makes me uneasy. I don't like the thought of losing 3, or possibly even 4 players, of a 12 player game in one full cycle. I just don't like it. Because, there is not enough information out about those players to safely make connections between them and other players. Thus leaving us in the dark about them, and can possibly go bad from that point on.

Because the only reason I see for you not wanting us to vig the other of whoever gets lynched is that you're partners with them, or you're partnered with net (who's lying then in this case) and you don't want to out them as an only killing role (highly unlikely).

To an extent your post was tunneling. Anyways, no it's none of that. As I've said, and to reiterate, I find it ill advised and a bad play. Why? Because losing a 1/3 or 1/4 of the game in one cycle

is not

good. You say it's balanced. Balanced doesn't mean in town's favor.

[Chaco]

Bahhhh, stupid underling tag!

Mod: Can you fix that?

You don't have to, it just irritates me.

Done

Anyways, I'll go with Doom's claim for now. No CC here.

[Chaco]

The vig should never kill in case he misses? That's on par that we should never lynch in case we screw up!

Not what I said, and you know it. If not, you should. If you don't get what I mean, so be it. I'm not going to continuously explain my stance if it falls on deaf ears as it seems to be.

[Chaco]

Any way that we can get suspected scum is beneficial to the town.

So shooting on a whim allows us to get "suspected scum"?

[Chaco]

net can make a decision and we'll get scum anyways.

You seem so confident that his shot will be right. To me it seems like nudging.

[Chaco]

Do you deliberately try to avoid my question, or do you not read all of my posts?

You're scared of missing scum with a vig shot. Understandable. How is never shooting (or shooting later in the game under the 1-shot-UNK-miller-vig claim) better for the town?

1) It wouldn't be "on a whim"; it'd be because of suspicion. It's like a cop, you investigate who you're suspicious of, and you get a result. Yes, this is an analogy too, so don't just quote this line either and ignore the rest of my posts.

2a) The vig is right (i.e. we get scum). We test Net's claim immediately; and we're rid of one scum.

2b) The vig is wrong (i.e. hit a *suspicious* townie). We still test Net's claim (which helps us with determining his claim = beneficial). We eliminate a distraction from the game, reduce the list of suspects while not offing somebody people view to be pro-town (=beneficial).

In your scenario, we make anybody scummy to have to be lynched until late game when mistakes are more amplified. I will not allow you to delay something that will benefit the town so that you can allow a sketchy claim to go through til it's too late to evaluate it; while also hurting the town by allowing scummy people that we don't have enough lynches for.

If the vig misses, I've already pointed out with math why it's more beneficial to miss now rather than later. The reduction of the list of suspects is also beneficial, and widely regarded to be true. I can dig up the MD threadS on this as well if necessary.

Yes, I'm confident that my reads are right. Clearly they not always are. Are you not confident when you think you've found scum?

Chaco replaces DB on my list of suspects.

We gain more information from a lynch than a night kill.

I understand what you're saying. Now if you would, kindly stop forcing it down my throat. We have differing views, so be it. Yes, lessening the lynch pool is beneficial.

I also do not get where you're pulling that I do not want to lynch until near endgame. It is heavily implied, even if you did not word it directly so. All I have said, is that vigging N1 is ill advised. You disagree. I'd like to hear other opinions rather than you forcing your own. Different people have different opinions, and to function as a town properly you need to take into consideration the thoughts of all others. You remain adamant in your thoughts, and believe you are dead on. I however, do not feel so.

I also do not see your backing behind adding me to your suspect list. Elaborate.

[Chaco]

My vote is on Saberwolf.

But at the rate this is going, it may not for long.

[Chaco]

@SSK: No, and no again. It is not what I meant nor implied. And I clarified numerous times. You seem to be skimming what I'm saying, otherwise you'd know that I said "DON'T SHOOT N1". Which does not turn to "OMFG DON'T SHOOT AT ALL".

And since Shotty already answered, but I'll reiterate: Net will not die tonight as he is a Bulletproof Miller Vig.

@ about Looker: He's like this in every game I've seen of him. I honestly don't think it's anything of importance, but I'll look in a bit.

[Chaco]

Under what circumstances later in the game would "allow" Net to use his shot?

Whenever he wants to, at a later time than N1. As I've said, and as you've ignored.

FoS: Amished

[Chaco]

(Side Note: Saber can die, he replaced into other games meaning he only replaced out of this one as a means to cop out because it wasn't going good for him. That's seriously one of the most annoying things I've ever seen.)

[Chaco]

12-3= 9 (What will happen, regardless of alignment.)
12-4= 8 (Potentially could happen, depending on SK if there is one.)

The second potential, is why I'd rather wait. Because, there is the option of a third party killing role. And if that is the case, we have to assume that all townies could die. So, we'd be down to: 4/5 Townies, 2/3 Scum, 1 Third Party.

I seriously doubt that there is an SK, I'd rather not risk it though.

[Chaco]

Who will he target tonight then? No clear target. Random shots are not good for clearing one person.

[Chaco]

So in accordance, there is a balance. But it is risky to lose potentially 4 people in a cycle. That's why he should wait.

[Chaco]

Alright, whatever. I see no one viable for him to shoot at the time. From what I can tell though, Amished wants: Lynch Saber, Vig Looker

[Chaco]

Yes, he is.

[Chaco]

Yeah, I gotta admit after looking back over it, that's a rather shoddy claim. Either he's holding out on another ability he has, or he's lying.

[Chaco]

Hey, you have quite the whole to dig out of.

[Chaco]

I'm actually feeling a very high likelihood that if Integra is in the game, she is in fact scum. And as Forbiddan said, I can see her as Godfather.

[Chaco]

K. I would like to hear your exact opinions as to why you feel he is scummy as well; if you would.

Didn't you feel DB was really scummy?

So this is what area tags do.

[Chaco]

He means on Doombunny.

[Chaco]

So would you disagree to a Doombunny lynch today? And then a look into Saber/ABR? Flip dependent vigging perhaps?

[Chaco]

So course of action, have Sabers replacement claim? (as much as I hate 3 outed roles on D1)

[Chaco]

Same question to Chaco-Why do you think Integra would be scum?

Strong flavor, and your play reeks of scum.

[Chaco]

Exactly what Forby said.

[Chaco]

Hello Jester. :3 We're not gonna risk that, I say if anything, you get vigged son.

[Chaco]

Netty, you down?

[Chaco]

I wouldn't take credit for that, lol. That reeks of bullshit.

[Chaco]

Indeed.

[Chaco]

Hmm, actually, don't shoot Looker. It doesn't feel right.

Lynch preferred in all honesty. If he's a jester so be it, I despise those suckers and would rather just lynch them and get it over with. Because keeping them around out of spite of their horrid win condition does no good to anyone other than a constant anti-town player.

Unvote; Vote: Looker

[Chaco]

Well, here's the downside to your theory. What if Scum has say a strongman? Then they've lured out our one shot vig onto looker and now they don't have to worry about a vig shot. Balance your "if's" before you shoot.

Also, if he's a jester then so be it, I'd rather not take a risk on BBBs Gambit and just lynch him. So what if he meets his win condition. Jesters suck, should claim D1, and should be killed then.

[Chaco]

Lol, from the beginning I presume?

[Chaco]

Anyone disagree?

[Chaco]

No one thought it was a good idea when SSK and I pushed it. <.<

[Chaco]

Same facts in both. I'll be watching for bus votes depending on flip.

[Chaco]

Same facts in both. I'll be watching for bus votes depending on flip.

How do you determine bus votes given that Looker

claimed

scum?

Well, generally speaking, if he really is scum, his partner(s) aren't going to want to get rid of him because it severely docks their chances. You could more than likely tell a reluctance near the latter part of the count. Possibly. Not saying it

will

prove useful. But it never hurts to look.

[Chaco]

I was his neighbor, his alignment was ambiguous and I didn't know it. Therefore, if he's going to claim scum, I couldn't tell you he wasn't.

(iPhone post)

[Chaco]

Take it as you wish, but be smart about it. Oh well, since my roles outed might as well name with it. I'm jan.

@mod: Kairyuu, you put the wrong name up for Looker. He was Luke.

[Chaco]

Yeah, I'm a Freak Vampire, as was my brother Luke(Looker). That is why I believe that Doombunny is scum and should die. If he had known more about Hellsing, he'd know that Jan got into a fight with Integra. His last fight. I can in no way see them on the same side. And I believe it's fairly staggeringly obvious that I'm town, because my role was posted.

Vote: Doombunny

[Chaco]

So why did Looker do that?

I have no earthly clue as to why, I didn't get to talk to him in Pre-game. It was just more or less, saying we were there. After that, it was Day 1, so we no longer could talk.

Anyways, look back upon D1, and notice where I said "blah blah blah Why do I think Integra is scum? blah blah and Strong Flavor." Get why strong flavor makes sense now? Integra "pretty much" killed Jan. Shot him in the face multiple times, but he finished it off by setting himself on fire. Anyways. I cannot see Integra and Jan being on the same side. Even if she's not scum, she wouldn't be town.

And Net, I have nothing to be scared off, and I don't see where you're drawing this from. I wasn't even moving hastily, it was more than likely my quick jab posts as I didn't have internet access. I was using my phone.

[Chaco]

That's what makes this game interesting. The character links, are definitely not as they should be.

Luke and Jan served for Incognito, but as you know, Luke flipped town. Anyways, let's not push that envelope.

I dunno really. I'd say it's null, looking deeper into it now. The links just make zero sense.

[Chaco]

I can see Helena and Incognito. But not Alucard with them.

And what of Seras?

[Chaco]

DB: If you would read and not cut the part that I said it in, I do believe I said: As I was reading my opinion changed.

No need to get pissy over the little things.

[Chaco]

Nope, no flavor.

but as Forbs said, it's why I agreed Integra would be scum.

[Chaco]

Whew, thank you ABR for finally posting. I was getting a bit annoyed with you only posting "still catching up". Anyways, I agree with the point on DB's flip floppiness, and willingness to spearhead any lynch.

[Chaco]

Ouch, that sucks.

[Chaco]

Shotty seems town to me at the moment.

Magnus seems rather scatter brained, but heading in a good direction. If that makes sense.

Also, just to put it out, not liking Kanowa atm.

[Chaco]

Doom. Hey boy, what's up? Why point out SSK and I, when Kanowa has been slipping by this whole game with

nothing

but one liners? Reason why? You're floundering and trying to push a quicklynch.

Time for Wifom:

Who was on DB a lot yesterday? Amished. Who's dead? Amished. Who did you kill Doom?

@ABR: Reasons on Kanowa is embedded in the first part.

Shotty: Is a gut read.

[Chaco]

Chill you two.If at all possible. If not, continue.

[Chaco]

I do think DB is scummy. I do not think the NK has any impact on whether or not he is scum. If you think so, I consider it a scumtell because you are obviously intelligent enough to know its not a sustainable argument.

It was merely food for thought, my main arguments remain on him due to his play and the flavor.

[Chaco]

I WILL have a post up in due time.

[Chaco]

Doom, you compare me to SSK. Which you said that if he posted more it would not change your opinion on him. Why is that? Does that also mirror to onto me?

[Chaco]

Why was my quote labeled SSK?

Anyways, I understand what you mean, but don't you think that is tunneling slightly?

[Chaco]

Who I suspect? As stated earlier, that'd have to be Doombunny. Reasons already mentioned.

[Chaco]

That's not the half of it. Did you even look back? Doom
is a very scummy player.

[Chaco]

1. Go read him in ISO, as I have done multiple times. Just humor me, and do so.
2. Also, I looked back to Amished's suspicions since he died town. One of his main focuses was DB.
3. Doom as much as he posts, isn't helpful in the slightest.

Main point being, go read him in ISO. Tell me that you do not find him incredibly scummy.

[Chaco]

Lmfao.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... &start=285

[Chaco]

Net, yes you are. Also, DB reeks of scum! Need I say more? In all of his posts, he is an erratic player who does not weigh all of the factors and tends to tunnel like crazy. He tends to go after those who go after him, as shown by all of his votes. He joked like crazy on D1 and then pulled the little innocent act. He should've been the D1 lynch, his claim saved him. Stupidity on my part and not claiming D1 caused Looker's lynch. If I would've thought more clearly about it, I would've claimed and pushed that away. However, his alignment was not guaranteed. So therefore, I did pursue his lynch. I have no idea what he was thinking. If it was a gambit, it failed miserably.

Anyways, back to DB, I'll go outline some of his posts later if needed. But, I really don't think it needs it. Because essentially I'd be quoting his ISO.

Also, regarding Amished, you are to quick to dismiss that idea. I don't like it. Gonig back and looking at where a CONFIRMED townie's suspicions lie is a pretty good idea. You dismissed it instantly.

[Chaco]

I do weigh all of my options. And tunneling? Hardly. In fact, you seem to be tunneling on me more than anyone else. Also, only 3/9 people think I am pro-town or neutral (Neto, Shotty, Magnus if I'm correct). I beleive Netos claim, I do think Shotty is scummy, and I haven't really heard enough on Magnus to get a sold read on him but I'm leaning town. So other than Shotty I kinda do have to get on people who are on me. and joked like crazy? If you look back I only made a joke in 1 post in D1 I beleive. Besides. Just like Neto says, how is humor a scumtell?

The above is Doom's most recent post, within this post he attempts to buddy. Also, this post is scummy as hell. He does the classic,"Can't be me! Must be you!" type deal.

I kinda do have to get on people who are on me.

I kinda do have to get on people who are on me.

I kinda do have to get on people who are on me.

Does anyone else not find this scummy to high hell? I'm not going through and highlighting all the main points of each post. But I will pick out scummy snippets of posts later in the night. But for now, I'll leave you with this.

[Chaco]

Net, it makes perfect sense, in all honesty. What aren't you getting about it?

[Chaco]

Last sentence proves my point again.

[Chaco]

Last thing you just wrote was also scummy.

1. You invoke Net
2. "You're no better than SSK."

Deafening scum bells.

[Chaco]

Revvin' that chainsaw.

I do know what the word means, you choose to ignore it. Which is pretty evident at this point. You're disagreeing with me at this point because you were the one invoked, no?

[Chaco]

Sorry, I have limited time as I am currently on the 4th page of an outline of a research paper. So, honestly, I'm not putting much effort into this right now. I will soon though, which is why I suggested reading DB's ISO. Because I don't have the time currently. I can't waste two hours.

[Chaco]

Chaco: For the record, I'm a law student. I read 100+ pages per night and have written over 40 pages this semester in outlines of my notes, all in preparation for a series of 4-hour exams that I'll be taking in under a month.

And I'm a procrastinating high school student, who parties every weekend.

Anyways, Magnus, I will get to it. Just not tonight. Tomorrow. Promise. If not, you can...bitch at me I guess.

[Chaco]

A larger post promised will be cut short due to time issues, however, I do hope this will do the trick!

Upon reading DB in Iso for the umpteenth time, I decided to stop merely picking at scummy snippets and look for patterns or motives. I looked into patterns first off, and Doom has a very distinct on at that.

We all know how Net is defending DB now? Well, at one point Doom was one of the one's attempting to undermine his claim. They come off as "mis-informed" questions but actually, to me, seem like nudges. There are quite a few instances of these questions tat really bug me, the main one being Net:

"Couldn't he just shoot someone and then claim vig?"

Do you see why this is unnerving? It's a common knowledge question that the newest of mafia players could figure out. But Doom has a way with adding these in.

Also, the swap from believing Neto to undermining Neto doesn't sit well with me.

That's all I can manage at the moment, sorry. Hopefully this is somewhat better, Magnus.

[Chaco]

Amished's questions were meaningful, Dooms are not.

[Chaco]

More text in them, but as far as substance that'd be a no.

[Chaco]

More text in them, but as far as substance that'd be a no.

[Chaco]

That isn't convincing me that Doom isn't scum. You argue that you want me to convince you that Doom is scummy, but I also want you to convince me that he's not. Don't try the burden of proof shit here. It's going both ways.

[Chaco]

As I figured a law student would, which is why I dismissed it.

[Chaco]

Ok, sorry, misread. I thought you said the burden was on me. Quite frankly, though, it's impossible to prove someone is NOT scummy. You can show how they are...but the default is that they are not.

No problem, and how is it possible to prove someone not scummy also as "innocent". Let's take this from a standpoint of guilty and not guilty, so all players would start out as innocent until proven guilty. For each point I bring up, a rebut would be needed to nullify that point. Correct? Sorry, I'm not into this law stuff. So, going from there a rebut is needed instead of a snappy comment. As the rebut is what is "proving" him innocent, or "not scummy".

[Chaco]

Well, how about. . .I dunno countering? All you two are doing is dismissing it. Go look for a fucking pattern in his Iso, and motives. Instead of instantly playing the "Ohh, he can't be scum!"

If I'm not doing a thorough job of convincing you then maybe actually looking for yourself will.

[Chaco]

1) Youre going against what you previously stated.
2) Not gonna happen.
3) Flimsier than shit

Net, that's a horrible vote and you know it.

By refusing to look even you vote me, nice.

[Chaco]

You know what, screw it. I'm going to go ahead and post something affirmative. Here are my suspicion lists for today.

At least 1 of the following 4 are scum:
Konowa
Chaco
SSK
Shotty


Reasoning in order of scummiest to least scummy:

1: MafiaSSK - Absolutely no content and is unapologetic about it. Has made 21 posts when the game is well over 900. Promises lots of posts, never gives any reasoning. Votes twice, both supporting the current wagon. Does nothing to upset the status quo. Epitomizes "laying low", "going with the flow" and general lurking.
2: Chaco - Behind 2 wagons, both for questionable reasons. Lots of noise, very little signal.
3: Shotty - Similar to chaco - lots of noise, very little signal.
4: Konowa - Improved today, but still somewhat scummy. Lots of posts encouraging a course of action without stating why other than that "people should".



Possibly, but unlikely scum list:
Albert, Doombunny

I'm almost certain of townitude:
Forbiddanlight, Magnus_orion


MafiaSSK or Chaco is the play today, I believe. Of the two, I think that Chaco is more of a failtown read than MafiaSSK is.

Lol if DB is scum so is Net. There's no two sides about it at all.

SSK or I am the play today, correct? Wrong. Lynching me will reveal exactly like Luke's role. Which, I also don't see why Net doesn't think beyond the tip of his nose. Anyways, I'm not gonna push it. Doom is scum quite damn clearly. My vote is not moving.

Magnus: This isn't math, it's spotting simple scum tells in his posts.

Net, I'm failtown? Lol, no. All you've done is insult me, and guess what that's making me think? That I'm dead ass on. So continue, and prove me right.

[Chaco]

Obvious, obvious coaching at times keeping him in line. Defending him like a mad man while feeling no scrutiny for his claim.

Here's the reasons I'm voting Doom, maybe this will work better:

1. The joking
2. Indecision with easily back outs
3. Going after only the ones who go after him
4. "Dumb or Scum" questions

That's pretty much my reasoning on him.

[Chaco]

I don't see how I'm bring opporunistic in any light, Ill admit unhelpfulness however I do not see the latter. I don't have the, per se, ability to effectively post on my reads. I'm gutting Doom hard, along with semi-incriminating actions. The humor, more or less was just detrimental that slowly added up. The weak backing with easy back outs, really bothers me. I've seen it one to many times to feel okay about it.

Okay now, Doom has had almost everyone on him. However, he's pushing hardest on SSK and I. At this time, since Im on my phone, Im not sure how much SSK has said on him. So at this point, Ill ignore that. I, have been pushing hard on Doom. Net has attacked me for doing so, and it does make sense. That's why I retract my previous, impulsive statement of if DB was scum, Net would be too.

Forbs, how is my claim incriminating? Pro-town neighbors are far more common then let on, to my experience, masonries are more commonly involving varying alignments. So I do not see where you are getting that from. Support it if you would, because I do believe that is a rare occurrance.

Net, why are you so opposed to a Doom lynch? Is he not at all scummy to you? If not, why?

I'll try to more effectively communicate my thoughts now on.

[Chaco]

You are correct, SSK hasn't done anything. However, policy lynching SSK today would
not be in good light because, as you stated, the state of the town. Which is why I more so support a DB lynch. Out of everyone, to me, he is the scummiest. Also, to reiterate, his lynch supplies the wagon information, connections, and whatnot.

I also haven't seen Kanowa do much of anything, mainly post scrutinies. So SSK and he, are in similar light. At least in my opinion.

Now, back to Doom. Even with my "flimsy" reasoning, does it give you any change in thought about DB?

Forbs, here's some wifom to mull over; Would I have claimed if I was a scum neighbor?

[Chaco]

Doom, you joked more than that. I consider the jokish buddying and and over use
of smilies, as joking. You were not taking it seriously. How is that a detriment? Well first of, you know the definition of detriment, correct? Well, it's presumably not helping at all and only being a nuisance. Which you were, along with Saber. Then clearly denied the fact that joking was unhelpful.

[Chaco]

Forbs, here's some wifom to mull over; Would I have claimed if I was a scum neighbor?

That's precisely it. It's WIFOM. I don't accept it as evidence either way.

Precisely why I did not offer it as fact, it's why I said mull over it.

[Chaco]

I KNOW why I am, but could not effectively communicate as to why. So, with that being said, if DB were to flip town who would you pursue?

[Chaco]

Net, beyond being an ass, yes. He humped everyones leg at the beginning of the game. And honestly, yeah. With each more of your attempts to be "cute", it just makes me think you're being a dumb ass.

Precisely my point. In that case, why would you not see FL as potential scum?

[Chaco]

There is no idiocy in that claim, post nothing but ass kissing with smilies is a detriment. If you don't see that, I don't know how else to put it.

Also, profiency comes to mind with FL. Say he's nudging you on over to DB, which Im not ruling out, what would you do in this case?

[Chaco]

Aye...you're making this incredibly difficult because you're tunneling so hard. What are FL's motives? Do you take motives into account when forming an opinion on someone? If so/not, why?

[Chaco]

I'm asking for what YOU think, could be ifs or whats, but your opinion.

[Chaco]

I'm not trying to discredit either. I'm asking you a simple question, and you're turning it into a battle. It doesn't have to be an ulterior motive, what are her motives?

[Chaco]

Chaco, how many games have you played before this one?
also, in how many have you been town?

Uhm, total games? More than 10. I don't remember the exact number.

Town wise? Maybe 4. I have a terrible habit of nearly always being scum.

Net, you were already voting for me. Any reason for revoting?

Also if I die, I expect Doom killed. Because my flip should damn well set you in the right direction, cause you can tell from the arguments it's not TvT. So if it helps scum get lynched I don't oppose. I no longer have a PR, so if it helps. Eh, it works then.

[Chaco]

Not scummy, but detrimental. Especially when you include the fucking ugly happy face in every post.

You die when I die son.

[Chaco]

And that would accomplish. . .?

[Chaco]

Well, you're gonna be happy to know you're wrong.

It's time for an amazing call:

Net will pull a 180 0n Doom once I'm lynched.

[Chaco]

Dud I ever in the first post say it was scummy or a detriment or did you infer poorly?

[Chaco]

In the two posts that Doombunny quoted. The first. Does it say joking is scummy? No. What I called scummy was his style and "dumb or scum" questions. Anyways, there's no use arguing it.

Like I said previously, I do not oppose being lynched so long as it puts Doom 10 feet under.

[Chaco]

So you believe my claim yet push my lynch? Contradictory.

[Chaco]

After all, its just your poor inference of my words that makes these misunderstandings arise, not my lack of ability to convey them coherently, right?

Subtext, mate, subtext.

[Chaco]

Neto, stop flattering yourself. I couldn't give two shits about you. Doom's where my foots at. You're AbA.

[Chaco]

Also, verbose? I'm to the point. I'm having major issues conveying Doom's scumminess. Ever had the feeling that you absolutely

know

someone's scum, but you can't seem to explain why you know? I know why I know, but I can't seem to effectively convey. It's annoying.

[Chaco]

It means that he's trying to sound intelligent.

Net, instead of trying to insult me for a change. Which you've been doing for quite some time now, why don't you try to effectively scum hunt. Your subtle nudges and minor attacks on me are cute, but I won't appease by biting back. It was a valiant attempt, but one failing from the start.

[Chaco]

I can be, but I see no need at this point. The argument is growing stagnant.

Indeed you can, and it can be successful. That is your opinion, not a fact.

This is also a rather humorous opinion, as you have no clue as to how effective it is unless you have insight into roles. In which case, that would counter your claim.

Also, the nice little jab at the end proves my point more. If you're going to become the same type of lawyer as you are a mafia player, I fear you'll be held in contempt. See I can do it too. Now squash this, it's not helpful in the slightest.

[Chaco]

First of all, it's "quash" and not "squash". "Squash" is either a vegetable or the act of squeezing, "quash" is to end an argument.

Second, lynches based on gut are generally terrible. I have never seen a lynch based solely on gut that was successful.

Finally, I never claimed that I had insight into roles, just insight onto what players are foreseeably scummy or not.

I prefer squash, as you are squeezing the life out of this game.

Then read more.

Really? I'd reevaluate then.

[Chaco]

As are you.

What happened to the certainty? It went from scum to "might be". You're slowly falling apart.

This argument cannot be town versus town, and I want to hear what others think on this matter.

[Chaco]

Righto, Forbs.

I doesn't feel so to me, but I'm less interested in my own thoughts, and would love to hear yours.

[Chaco]

I agree that it isn't or I wouldn't be voting you, but I want your take.

I hold you to this statement, as should others.

Why it can't be? As I said, to me, it doesn't feel as it can be.

[Chaco]

Because the way he attacks is pushing for my lynch hard, when it isn't needed as so. The mere mention of me not getting lynched, and he jumps right back on.

I could only be claiming Netopalis is scum in the event that I am not scum. I said it couldn't be town versus town. That is not saying Net is scum, but it can allude to two facts. Either I am scum, or Net is scum. Effectively, I am giving you my consent to lynch me today, unless all suspicion of me is cleared. As that will only be a detriment to town in later days, and would rather be mislynched while that is still an option.

[Chaco]

Chaco, I think what you're failing to understand is that you're basically doing the following:

"X is true. Prove me wrong!"

Well, that's not how it works. It works in the reverse - you make a statement and you prove it. If you can't prove it, it's not adopted. Continuing illogical statements in an attempt to make a hurried lynch lead us to believe that you are scummy.

No, what I'm saying is:

"Y is true. Prove me right"

And that's how it's gonna work. My lynch will prove it, as you know, which is why I do not oppose my own lynch. My role has no essential worth outside of numbers to the town. If that's what it takes to pin the scum, then so be it. Do it while we have the time. It's a win-win for you, unless you are scum. In which case you're pushing your own demise.

[Chaco]

We assume that all players are arguing from the standpoint they are town. Are you planning to claim scum? Though yesterday that didn't work out too well.

No, I am not. I am saying you agreed that it could not be town versus town, and I said I hold you to that statement. Why to you, is it not town versus town? If, and when, I flip town, will you retract your statement?

[Chaco]

What I see scummy is mostly your behavior overall this game.

Which spawned when?

[Chaco]

Let's hope roundabout methods prove successful.

[Chaco]

Nightkilled in 2, and lynched in one.

[Chaco]

Net, seriously, you're starting to get annoying.

[Chaco]

*ring ring*

Chaco, it's for you. I think it's the kettle again.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... oyingSound

[Chaco]

you're just not very good at the game...

We'll see.

[Chaco]

Oh and, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TedBaxter

[Chaco]

Pointing out what Ive mentioned previously, but notice how Net interjects with the "-BUT "blahblah" DID TOO!"

[Chaco]

It'll probably be a few days before I can post. Massive workload. Sorry guys, I'll try my best in any free time I have to make that post.

[Chaco]

I know I can, just time permitting. I expect, if at possible, to get it up around 3 or so tonight.

[Chaco]

Not caring isn't good. As long as it isn't your bro DB, you don't care, eh?

[Chaco]

And why's that?

[Chaco]

Because you're scummy?

I am fucking geeked right now, because I get to use a Net quote!!!

*ring ring*

It's the kettle Doom!

Haha, what fun!

[Chaco]

But on the reals, I'll have that post up later. I've got to read through some.

[Chaco]

Possible Kikuchiyo connections to Net. Very, very slight. But I picked up on those some, more reading to come.

After reading through I realized that Kikuchiyo was down for Doom's lynch as well. And I didn't really spot the reluctance to vote him. Mere speculation than actually opinion changing, however, I'm going to re-evaluate DB.

More reading now.

[Chaco]

Not a scare tactic Doom, I don't do those. I do the damn certain tactics.

More to come later, Dooms post was minimal on me. And mainly just saying what I had done rather than the why.

[Chaco]

Actually, yes you should. Motives, son, get with them.

[Chaco]

Actually, yes you should. Motives, son, get with them.

How do you expect him to know tihs?

Motives are one of the essential ways that you can gauge scum. Do you not use them when scum hunting?

[Chaco]

I do....but the thing is...he can't *know* what you're thinking....You expect him to be able to explain all of your actions? You can explain it far better than he can, yet you continue to refuse to do so.

*puts a banana on a stool in front of you*

Chaco, tell me, do you know why I set that banana there?

Do you?

Figure it out.

INFER! This isn't that hard a concept.

Yes, because you knew I was hungry and was more likely to post if you baited me with food.

/thread
/game
My stomach's win condition was met.

[Chaco]

Yes, but inference only gets you so far. You also need explanation from the person acting.

Do you honestly think if scum is nudging someone they're gonna go,"Oh hey guys, I'm nudging you to lynch PLAYERNAME."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7eYnDddsic

[Chaco]

But you would still have to use motives which you argued against.

[Chaco]

I never said I was going to explain my motives. I think they are quite clear though to be honest.

[Chaco]

I'd like to hear from Forbs and SSK before I hammer.

[Chaco]

My rules stay: I hold you accountable to your responses, and once you see my flip, I expect doom gone.

I still do not oppose my lynch today. Net, if you want SSK gone then vig him.

[Chaco]

Not at you Neto, that's been reserved for Doom.

One of the main reasons I want to be lynched is for town, tht and yhe fact that I cannot definitely
disprove being scum. Lynching me will do just that and bump you in the right direction.

[Chaco]

You could have left me at anytime, but I never saw it happen. Nor did you push it.

[Chaco]

Good graces of two players should no account for town, no? You're pretty much down to Lynch anything with two legs and isn't Doom.

Vig tonight and prove your claim, we're not going any further with your WIFOM mess. You want SSK dead? Vig him. It proves you. Also, Ill be watching the how they died. Death flavors are distinctivE been factions, and further more players. If it matches the presumed "scum" kill, prepare for a shit storm.

[Chaco]

Don't make an ultimatum based argument. The me or him thing will not work.

I want Doom, Im not settling on an SSK lynch unless we're deadlining it.

[Chaco]

I'm not giving up, and if I were I wouldn't still be pushing towards Doom.

Meta says SSK is town.

[Chaco]

I'm not making threats, Im stating facts.

I refuse to hop on SSK's scum wagon.

Also waiting to vig leaves us a mess of WIFOM around you, you were told to vig N1 but you opted not. Do it tonight or further fuck the town.

[Chaco]

No, Net, you know better. That it is not 75% town, Id say scum is on it.

ABR is town, quite obviously.

Magnus's opposing me yet attacking me doesn't add up much, scum strat?

Net has a circle of WIFOM around him due to claim, and refusal to vig by towns means. His claim cannot be proven unless he vigs, which he won't. You'll be left in endgame with that.

Forbs hard to read as she doesn't post that frequently, speculative still.

Meta says SSK is town.

Konawa is speculative.

Doom is more than likely scum.

MO for SK maybe. And wah lah gut reads. For your use later on.

[Chaco]

Wasn't even reposnding to our point...geezus man. Only the top was.

[Chaco]

My flip does.

[Chaco]

It will be later on.

[Chaco]

Agreed with the above.

Also, it will read as Luke's but with Jan. No reverse death miller shit.

[Chaco]

The one not referring to shotty, but anti town is the subset of scummy.

And true I guess, however I was meaning disagree with my lynch. But still holds true,

[Chaco]

You are correct Doom, howver, it will not help you in the slightest.