Mini 861: Hellsing Mafia - (Game Over!)

[MafiaSSK]

EBWOP: Remove that last past about me voting myself. Forgot to delete that from the quote.

[magnus_orion]

Magnus - If you are truly such a great and experienced player, I shouldn't have to tell you to back up your arguments. If you don't want me to treat you like that, play the game as if you're engaged and interested. Don't tell me that you're too lazy to make cases.

I didn't say half the things you're making me out to say here.
I never said I was great and experienced. I said I played several games and won most of them. And there's a difference between lazy and busy. I never said I was too lazy to make cases.

FL, I'm not sure that I like what I'm seeing from you. Your discouraging of the use of logic and the way that you present everything as a done deal, already decided is a bit disconcerting. On the other hand, I think that you raise good points, especially about Shotty as possible scum. What to do, what to do, what to do....

So this is directed to me?
Fine
I'm not "discouraging the use of logic"
I'm saying that since there are no definite premises to deal with, saying mafia is a game of logic is a misnomer. A game of reason, or a game of psychology, would be more apt. Logic is when conclusions follow directly and undeniably from premises, such as the premises that if I add 1 and 1 I get 2 and if I add 2 and 2 I get 4, and the conclusion that if I add 1 and 1 and 1 and 1 I get 4. Mafia lacks such definitive precision. Its not discouraging it, its a fact. You simply can't find the scum through a definite formula. At some point, reason and psychology are involved, and there is always a case where you could potentially be wrong, because someone could be lying, even if it ends up being the mod because he made a cop insane or put a miller in. Of course there are certain definitives, but none that you can use to guarantee a win, unless the setup is open. (An open setup does allow for a degree of logic, but thats a whole different ballgame)


I'm definitive but flexible. What I state are my opinions, but I state them with purpose to show where I stand. I'm quite open to change my mind. I have been accused of backpedaling on numerous occasions, but I feel backpedaling with reason is a poor scum tell.


As to what you should do, voting shotty is probably the best option, but that's my opinion, and your vote is under your own control, so my opinion about what you should do with it matters little to what you do do with it, though I may be able to persuade.

[Shotty to the Body]

Lol Orion what possible explanation would Kik have had for unvoting at L-1 on an easy lynch that would've gone through as scum? She waffled between DB and Saber because that's what the town was doing and she kept us from lynching one of her buddies when the chips were down. Then Looker gave her the easy way out by being a fool.

Shotty seemed quick to decide that the opposite neighbor was scum, and then quick to retract that opinion.
His "scumhunting" has involved sitting on the sidelines and either affirming or denying things and attacking his randomvote, saber, every so often.
More recently, his apparent disregard for anyone but saberwolf manifests itself in this pretty contradiction:
Now DB's town because of iso kik, but saber's scum because of iso kik. If you iso kik, there is really no reason for this to be the case.

1. It was a thought that I didn't have time to fully examine at the time, I specifically called it a placeholder which you ignored, and when I found it to be lacking, I discarded it for a better one, why is that scummy?
2. Proof please. I attacked Saber because I thought he was the best lynch, I offered my opinions on the other players at the time, took a correct read on DB which is confirmed by his claim and Kik's posts, and tried to maintain activity through a very lackluster D1.
3. "Petty contradiction," you obviously have no idea how to think from the scum perspective. There's nothing contradicting at all about deciding one player is town and one is not from an ISO read. If you read Kik she kept two options open, Saber and DB, and when it was time to lynch Saber she immediately backed away on the call for a replacement/claim and moved to DB! You yourself said earlier you thought DB was town (which you seem to be flipping on in your attacks on me why?), so she isn't bussing him, WHY WOULD SHE MOVE HER VOTE IF SABER WASN'T IN HER FACTION? The fact that there is no good answer for that is a pretty damn "neat explanation." As far as I'm concerned when Saber flips scum you're next on the chopping block for this chainsaw defense with a vapor case.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I'm really sick, guys. I might not be able to post for another day or two.

[Konowa]

I wish fl would not have shown scum her hand in 732, but the cards have been shown.

@Chaco+Forbs-(Again, feel free not to answer if this would cause you to claim Forbs) You are both part of millenium/FREAKS. Is there any flavor about why you joined up with the town (because you would both seem like scum names to me) or what the mafia might be?

I have to second fl on this. I really, really do not like this post and do not see town asking this question.

vote Doombunny9

Since I am on the subject, I just remembered something Doombunny. I can not find the reasoning why you had sABeR (bad, I know) as your number one lynch, disregarding Looker as you said, at the end of D1. Can you show me where you provided reasoning? All I can remember is that you constantly said that you had saber listed as failtown.

Will get to more of this in a few.

[forbiddanlight]

I wish fl would not have shown scum her hand in 732, but the cards have been shown.

I haven't played everything yet. But I think it needed to be said.

[Chaco]

Nope, no flavor.

but as Forbs said, it's why I agreed Integra would be scum.

[Konowa]

2. Proof please. I attacked Saber because I thought he was the best lynch, I offered my opinions on the other players at the time,

took a correct read on DB which is confirmed by his claim

and Kik's posts, and tried to maintain activity through a very lackluster D1.

Given the latest discussion regarding Millenium, would you still consider this to be true?

[Doombunny9]

First of all, way to quad post SSK

First off, why claim? Second off, no shit after you said you would use your action don't you think a roleblocker would focus on you?

I claimed yesterday because I was getting lynched. Also, I guess that no roleblocker did focus on me. -shrug-

This is highly unlikely. I know that Kairyuu would not miss a single night action. He's highly responsible like that.

I would like to know how you find this scummy. If I was mafia, what would I gain from waiting a bit to give the info? (if you remember, Neto was the only one who posted in between my posts.)

I have to second fl on this. I really, really do not like this post and do not see town asking this question.

I asked this question as to find why they might be town as opposed to scum, the second part was to obviously try and figure out what faction the scum belongs to (Millenium, FREAKS, etc.). When we have information town needs to get as much of it as we can without letting have scum get too much which is why I included the part about "feel free to not answer this question" portion of it.

Since I am on the subject, I just remembered something Doombunny. I can not find the reasoning why you had sABeR (bad, I know) as your number one lynch, disregarding Looker as you said, at the end of D1. Can you show me where you provided reasoning? All I can remember is that you constantly said that you had saber listed as failtown.

Saber was always at near the top of who I wanted to lynch. I just felt that what everyone thought was scummy wasn't enough for a vote from me. The evidence for both is the same. I never 100% supported a saber lynch.

[Konowa]

Can we lynch Doombunny now?

[magnus_orion]

Lol Orion what possible explanation would Kik have had for unvoting at L-1 on an easy lynch that would've gone through as scum? She waffled between DB and Saber because that's what the town was doing and she kept us from lynching one of her buddies when the chips were down. Then Looker gave her the easy way out by being a fool.

Shotty seemed quick to decide that the opposite neighbor was scum, and then quick to retract that opinion.
His "scumhunting" has involved sitting on the sidelines and either affirming or denying things and attacking his randomvote, saber, every so often.
More recently, his apparent disregard for anyone but saberwolf manifests itself in this pretty contradiction:
Now DB's town because of iso kik, but saber's scum because of iso kik. If you iso kik, there is really no reason for this to be the case.

1. It was a thought that I didn't have time to fully examine at the time, I specifically called it a placeholder which you ignored, and when I found it to be lacking, I discarded it for a better one, why is that scummy?
2. Proof please. I attacked Saber because I thought he was the best lynch, I offered my opinions on the other players at the time, took a correct read on DB which is confirmed by his claim and Kik's posts, and tried to maintain activity through a very lackluster D1.
3. "Petty contradiction," you obviously have no idea how to think from the scum perspective. There's nothing contradicting at all about deciding one player is town and one is not from an ISO read. If you read Kik she kept two options open, Saber and DB, and when it was time to lynch Saber she immediately backed away on the call for a replacement/claim and moved to DB! You yourself said earlier you thought DB was town (which you seem to be flipping on in your attacks on me why?), so she isn't bussing him, WHY WOULD SHE MOVE HER VOTE IF SABER WASN'T IN HER FACTION? The fact that there is no good answer for that is a pretty damn "neat explanation." As far as I'm concerned when Saber flips scum you're next on the chopping block for this chainsaw defense with a vapor case.

I still fail to see how this "place holder" is qualified to be treated different from your actual opinion.

Ooh you claim I'm scum, now, too.

New question.
Rather than ask why she would unvote at the last minute if he wasn't in her faction (of note is that she asked for the claim when she unvoted so her most likely intention in stalling the lynch was to come off looking better because she was aware enough to slow down a lynch to ask for the claim)
instead ask
Why would she draw attention to saber to the point of near-lynch in the first place if he was in her faction?

When dealing with scum interactions and looking for scum, its better to look at how the player interacted with the scum than how the scum interacted with them. Why? Protecting/looking out for townies is good for townie points, so scum are inclined to do so, plus it allows their buddies to pull what you're doing if they end up dying.

[Shotty to the Body]

Lol Orion what possible explanation would Kik have had for unvoting at L-1 on an easy lynch that would've gone through as scum? She waffled between DB and Saber because that's what the town was doing and she kept us from lynching one of her buddies when the chips were down. Then Looker gave her the easy way out by being a fool.

Shotty seemed quick to decide that the opposite neighbor was scum, and then quick to retract that opinion.
His "scumhunting" has involved sitting on the sidelines and either affirming or denying things and attacking his randomvote, saber, every so often.
More recently, his apparent disregard for anyone but saberwolf manifests itself in this pretty contradiction:
Now DB's town because of iso kik, but saber's scum because of iso kik. If you iso kik, there is really no reason for this to be the case.

1. It was a thought that I didn't have time to fully examine at the time, I specifically called it a placeholder which you ignored, and when I found it to be lacking, I discarded it for a better one, why is that scummy?
2. Proof please. I attacked Saber because I thought he was the best lynch, I offered my opinions on the other players at the time, took a correct read on DB which is confirmed by his claim and Kik's posts, and tried to maintain activity through a very lackluster D1.
3. "Petty contradiction," you obviously have no idea how to think from the scum perspective. There's nothing contradicting at all about deciding one player is town and one is not from an ISO read. If you read Kik she kept two options open, Saber and DB, and when it was time to lynch Saber she immediately backed away on the call for a replacement/claim and moved to DB! You yourself said earlier you thought DB was town (which you seem to be flipping on in your attacks on me why?), so she isn't bussing him, WHY WOULD SHE MOVE HER VOTE IF SABER WASN'T IN HER FACTION? The fact that there is no good answer for that is a pretty damn "neat explanation." As far as I'm concerned when Saber flips scum you're next on the chopping block for this chainsaw defense with a vapor case.

I still fail to see how this "place holder" is qualified to be treated different from your actual opinion.

Ooh you claim I'm scum, now, too.

New question.
Rather than ask why she would unvote at the last minute if he wasn't in her faction (of note is that she asked for the claim when she unvoted so her most likely intention in stalling the lynch was to come off looking better because she was aware enough to slow down a lynch to ask for the claim)
instead ask
Why would she draw attention to saber to the point of near-lynch in the first place if he was in her faction?

When dealing with scum interactions and looking for scum, its better to look at how the player interacted with the scum than how the scum interacted with them. Why? Protecting/looking out for townies is good for townie points, so scum are inclined to do so, plus it allows their buddies to pull what you're doing if they end up dying.

1. A placeholder is holding the place of a real opinion, I didn't have time to look through everything but I wanted people to know the direction I was heading, I specifically said it was a placeholder to be filled in later, if you can't see the difference then I don't know what to tell you.

2. Ooooh sarcasm, that's original! If Saber flips scum then yes I would consider this chainsaw a giant scum-tell, otherwise, not so much.

3. Okay let's consider a new question since the old one is too tough for you. "Why would she draw attention to saber to the point of near-lynch in the first place if he was in her faction?" Let's see, because she was trying to blend with the town, his position was untenable and she was distancing herself? Saber was being retarded and she didn't unvote until she realized she could get a replacement that might be competent under the cover of holding off for a claim. Protecting others is not townie, if they're townie you should be able to find someone else scummier and if they aren't why are you defending them as town? Scum defend their partners if they think they can get away with it and Kik's "wants a claim" reason is hard to question even with a scum-flip by Saber.

[Albert B. Rampage]

O.K. I'm pretty much caught up.

Yeah, I'm a Freak Vampire, as was my brother Luke(Looker). That is why I believe that Doombunny is scum and should die. If he had known more about Hellsing, he'd know that Jan got into a fight with Integra. His last fight. I can in no way see them on the same side. And I believe it's fairly staggeringly obvious that I'm town, because my role was posted.

Vote: Doombunny

It seems to me that DB walked into a bit of a trap here, claiming before he knew that his claim could be used against him.

Doombunny - Two things. Firstly, it's entirely possible that Chaco could be lying about his alignment as well - at death, both come up as pro-town neighbor but are secretly scum. Second, if the reveal is genuine, there's another interesting fact...Jan Valentine was a vampire, yes, but he was a vampire who was created through artificial means - the implant of a chip. The series makes a huge distinction between the FREAK chip vampires and the genuine vampires - the game could as well.

More flavor discussion, and I am unfamiliar with the series, but once again, this looks convincing enough because I know that Kairyuu really is a nerd with these things, and would definitely make such a distinction present in the setup.

Question for everyone-Suppose we lynch Looker today (which we will probably do). Will you still follow up on the saber (and maybe me, depending on the person) lynch or look for other people who are doing scummy things?

Moreover, posts like these are what make me suspect Doombunny. It looks like he is gathering info on who to target already, instead of focussing on any real scumhunting at all.

And again, looking through his posts, it gives me the vibe that he's just looking to others to determine who to put his vote on. He doesn't seem to really care who we lynch at all.

Vote Doombunny

I have other thoughts, but I'll keep them for another time.

[Chaco]

Whew, thank you ABR for finally posting. I was getting a bit annoyed with you only posting "still catching up". Anyways, I agree with the point on DB's flip floppiness, and willingness to spearhead any lynch.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I thought I had H1N1 lol

[Chaco]

Ouch, that sucks.

[Albert B. Rampage]

What are your thoughts on Shotty to the Body and Magnus?

[Chaco]

Shotty seems town to me at the moment.

Magnus seems rather scatter brained, but heading in a good direction. If that makes sense.

Also, just to put it out, not liking Kanowa atm.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Can you post some reasons for these thoughts?

[magnus_orion]

Lol Orion what possible explanation would Kik have had for unvoting at L-1 on an easy lynch that would've gone through as scum? She waffled between DB and Saber because that's what the town was doing and she kept us from lynching one of her buddies when the chips were down. Then Looker gave her the easy way out by being a fool.

Shotty seemed quick to decide that the opposite neighbor was scum, and then quick to retract that opinion.
His "scumhunting" has involved sitting on the sidelines and either affirming or denying things and attacking his randomvote, saber, every so often.
More recently, his apparent disregard for anyone but saberwolf manifests itself in this pretty contradiction:
Now DB's town because of iso kik, but saber's scum because of iso kik. If you iso kik, there is really no reason for this to be the case.

1. It was a thought that I didn't have time to fully examine at the time, I specifically called it a placeholder which you ignored, and when I found it to be lacking, I discarded it for a better one, why is that scummy?
2. Proof please. I attacked Saber because I thought he was the best lynch, I offered my opinions on the other players at the time, took a correct read on DB which is confirmed by his claim and Kik's posts, and tried to maintain activity through a very lackluster D1.
3. "Petty contradiction," you obviously have no idea how to think from the scum perspective. There's nothing contradicting at all about deciding one player is town and one is not from an ISO read. If you read Kik she kept two options open, Saber and DB, and when it was time to lynch Saber she immediately backed away on the call for a replacement/claim and moved to DB! You yourself said earlier you thought DB was town (which you seem to be flipping on in your attacks on me why?), so she isn't bussing him, WHY WOULD SHE MOVE HER VOTE IF SABER WASN'T IN HER FACTION? The fact that there is no good answer for that is a pretty damn "neat explanation." As far as I'm concerned when Saber flips scum you're next on the chopping block for this chainsaw defense with a vapor case.

I still fail to see how this "place holder" is qualified to be treated different from your actual opinion.

Ooh you claim I'm scum, now, too.

New question.
Rather than ask why she would unvote at the last minute if he wasn't in her faction (of note is that she asked for the claim when she unvoted so her most likely intention in stalling the lynch was to come off looking better because she was aware enough to slow down a lynch to ask for the claim)
instead ask
Why would she draw attention to saber to the point of near-lynch in the first place if he was in her faction?

When dealing with scum interactions and looking for scum, its better to look at how the player interacted with the scum than how the scum interacted with them. Why? Protecting/looking out for townies is good for townie points, so scum are inclined to do so, plus it allows their buddies to pull what you're doing if they end up dying.

1. A placeholder is holding the place of a real opinion, I didn't have time to look through everything but I wanted people to know the direction I was heading, I specifically said it was a placeholder to be filled in later, if you can't see the difference then I don't know what to tell you.

2. Ooooh sarcasm, that's original! If Saber flips scum then yes I would consider this chainsaw a giant scum-tell, otherwise, not so much.

3. Okay let's consider a new question since the old one is too tough for you. "Why would she draw attention to saber to the point of near-lynch in the first place if he was in her faction?" Let's see, because she was trying to blend with the town, his position was untenable and she was distancing herself? Saber was being retarded and she didn't unvote until she realized she could get a replacement that might be competent under the cover of holding off for a claim. Protecting others is not townie, if they're townie you should be able to find someone else scummier and if they aren't why are you defending them as town? Scum defend their partners if they think they can get away with it and Kik's "wants a claim" reason is hard to question even with a scum-flip by Saber.

1. HAHAHA. I like that you took the exact opposite direction. Care to explain that? Also, why can't I still judge you based on the direction you were headed?

2. Technically, that wasn't sarcasm...

3. Protecting others is not townie. If they are townie, you should find someone else who is scummier and if you aren't why are you defending them as town? Conversely, protecting others is what scum do, therefore, protecting both townies and scum is a scumtell, to an extent. Agreed. Now then, since we've established that scum defend both town and scum, scum stalling on a lynch of a particular player indicates that player's alignment, how?

Shotty seems town to me at the moment.

Magnus seems rather scatter brained, but heading in a good direction. If that makes sense.

I'm pretty sure these are mutually exclusive.
Me being wrong is not going in a good direction.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I think that Shotty has closed himself to all other options at this point. I wouldn't even bother with that line of questioning.

[magnus_orion]

I'm sorry? Which line of questioning?

[Albert B. Rampage]

"Why would she draw attention to saber to the point of near-lynch in the first place if he was in her faction?"

[Doombunny9]

Ok, I can't really post much right now but heres a heads up. I will be quickly skimming through the game tomorrow to find more people to pursuit. (Because the people I thought were scum yesterday are gone today. Looker and Amished were killed. ABR is still alive though so I will be paying specail attention to him and saber)

[Shotty to the Body]

2. Proof please. I attacked Saber because I thought he was the best lynch, I offered my opinions on the other players at the time,

took a correct read on DB which is confirmed by his claim

and Kik's posts, and tried to maintain activity through a very lackluster D1.

Given the latest discussion regarding Millenium, would you still consider this to be true?

I doubt the Millenium discussion will sway me either way, Forb could be a red herring town Millenium role or any number of other things could define the scum faction, I'm still confident in the way Kik interacted with DB to clear him.