Mini Normal 2174 | Korean Pop Music | Mafia Wins!

[Hopkirk]

Got half an hour free so let's see how much of this I can catch up with. Might not be able to manage it since somehow you lunatics have managed to create eighteen whole pages in 5 days. What is this, a large?
I'm the kind of guy who sees more than two posts per person per day and doesn't know why anyone would think that excessive amount of posting is necessary. Then you see people like Flubbernugget who've managed 29 posts already. That is over FIVE posts per day. Where could he possible find the time for that.

[Hopkirk]

My thing got delayed an hour so I should be able to catch up. Who knows, I might even manage to his TWO whole posts today. A new personal record!

Lmao jk VOTE: Noraa for shits and gigglez

Damn, I actually fell for it and thought you preceding post was serious. Can we have some sort of warning in the post instead of afterwards next time

pt notes: keep glitch alive he townreads me

PJ obvtown.

Bob got called out in the last game with me for only saying the word "fellow" in scum games. No one believed it at the time and we limmed the person that said it but they were right :/

Couldn't somebody have just searched Bob's games to find out whether that's true or not?

we did that and even made a big chart thingie. But like the prob was that occassionally there were exceptions and he doesnt seem to use the word "fellow" that much even in scum games. And on top of that, the person SRing him was heavily SRed AND on top of that, not all of our town power had claimed so it looked like we were extremely underpowered so we believed his pr claim.

-He only does it as scum
-Except for some exceptions where he does it as town
-He doesn't really do it much as either

uh...

Not a fan of Bob/Flubber p3 interactions.

[Hopkirk]

Hi!!! this my first game, ever... So I might take a while to get used to it

It seems strange to me that there were so many votes on Bob before he even said anything. Is Bob the type of player the mafia would want dead?

My theory is that Noora might actually be scared of Bob catching her out so she's trying to get rid of him early and is then hiding it as an excuse of being scared of him being mafia... but I'm going to keep my vote dormant until I'm more sure!

This slot is incredibly obvtown (obvious town)

Btw I remembered wrong. Bob wasn't a mafia traitor last game. He was just an informed goon.
The traitor was from a different game of mine.

Did you go back and check the game thread?

yeah. the info's right this time I saw it with my two eyes.

Did you do it because of this?:

Bob got called out in the last game with me for only saying the word "fellow" in scum games. No one believed it at the time and we limmed the person that said it but they were right :/

Couldn't somebody have just searched Bob's games to find out whether that's true or not?

Why did this post put enough pressure on you to make you check the thread? Are you hyper self aware because your scum, or because you're Noraa?

Kinda confused but like the fellow thing had nothing to do with why I went back and checked. It was actually because I was talking about traitors elsewhere can't remember which thread but like someone said that traitors are a mafia member that isn't known to the mafia and the mafia only knows of their existence. I thought a traitor was like basically a RBer or something but Bob was def in the mafia thread from the start that game so I went back and checked and once I saw that I was like oh, huh so he wasn't a traitor. So I thought I'd share.

Doesnt really have much to do with being self aware and your attempt to dig into this is a bit concerning and kinda a red flag to me. Consider your past pocketing as cancelled out.

This is more of a newbie reaction than a seasoned player reaction. I simply asked you a question with a reference to a previous post because it looked like you got a slight miniscule amount of pressure placed on you by Trendall when he asked if anyone could just check bobs meta, and then you quietly showed back up having checked it out. That pinged me; why would it be scummy of me to question you on it? I didn't vote you. I didn't call for a wagon. I simply asked you questions to try and sort you.

I'm a very aggressive player. I tend to go really hard at people and grill them as town because I need to sort them. This reaction out of you gives me some info but not exactly super helpful info. From what I know of you, this reaction -- which I would describe as newbie (no offense), dramatic, and overreacting to a small, minor push -- seems to be consistent with your personality and playstyle across games. Therefore I don't imagine your response would be AI for you.

With other players I would normally find it a red flag to immediately throw shade on me for pushing them and calling them on something. Because I know you a little bit though I just doubt that your reaction is scum indicative but rather just Noraa indicative.

Why do you think it is scummy for me to see something from you that makes me raise an eyebrow, and to ask you about it pointedly? Also: why are you taking a two-quote post trying to understand you as "flipping out" on you? Don't you think that's a not of a flip out yourself over me trying to sort you?

Normally I like self meta but this is pretty eh.

@Thoughts about shits and gigglez at the beginning: I'd keep a note to myself that the 3 participants is leaning town based on the conversation. I also think it's a townish sign to start the first wagon quickly since scum benefit from stalling the game. Noraa, Gitch, Plus can be town for now.

the question is more why did you not vote in general?

By not voting and seeing how people react to that

, I am participating in the beginning stages of the game just as much as anybody else is.

I feel that this is a little bit contrived. It feels more like you thought of this reason when asked. Have you done this in any of your previous town games?

VOTE: bob

Not enough drama
Lockscum

VOTE: bob

This blind vote leaves me feeling flubber is town. The fourth vote on the first rvs wagon is almost always from town especially the more blind it is. As scum tend to have trepidation when voting a townie on the first rvs wagon i find. They might vote early or after the ice is broken but not that on the tipping point between being nearer no votes and being near exec.

Based on this response to the wagon I'm leaning town on Bob because he's showing scum-hunting intent rather than self-preservation.

t doesn't seem to be doing much

How do you know? I could have figured out who all the mafia are by now for all you know.

This seems defensive. Keeping knowledge and even reads and opinions secret are bad for town and good for scum.

Agree with what Noraa says in post #88, I thought the same thing too before she said it.

VOTE: Glitch

This feels really sheepish. Which part of Nora's post do you agree with? Why do you think scum-Glitch would necessarily try to push on Nora when you are his biggest suspect?

VOTE: Vote:Trendall

I don't really like how this sums up to townreads on all the active players (which I don't feel there's enough to justify), not a townread on the most obvtown (new) player in the thread.

Games where I don’t post a random vote in my first post as town are Newbies 977, 989, 1024, 1053, 1066, 1084, 1793, 1893, and 2035. So I’ve been doing exactly this for about ten years. Which again, anybody could have easily looked up. Unless they didn’t actually care and just wanted to cast suspicion on me, I guess.

In games 1075 and 1094, I place a random vote for people who don’t have avatars, but both of these games are from 2011 and I wouldn’t care about this sort of thing nowadays.

Do you have a record of all this or did you just look it up?

[Hopkirk]

Holy crap I posted way more than I thought I did. I'm going to bed now, goodnight friends!

You know you can make posts with more than one sentence in them right? That page felt 'trying to look really hard to look town'.

I think Trendall is a townie because that's a looooooot of words and I think it's hard for mafia to write so much right now, because we don't any good information

Ok I'm getting hard 'Hectic alt' pings from Staarling's posting now actually. There's just a little too much stuff that feels like a stereotype/parody of obvious new town for me to be 100% sure you're a new player and not another player called Hectic playing under an alt account. You've hit a lot of marks like 'Let's not vote anyone today, lots of words are town, not wanting to play scum, the Noraa avatar thing. Plus Hectic isn't in this game. That's pretty suspicious all on its own.

[Hopkirk]

Trendell can be town from the 1v1. Glitch to be sorted later.

[6] - Why don't you care what is and isn't a towntell? Sorting town is just as important as sorting scum. Process of elimination can lead you straight to the mafia.

You've misinterpreted me here, it's not about 'towntells', I don't care about 'tells' generally for reasons I gave in post 255.

The player in question I was referring to seemed to think that it was my responsibility to like actively towntell or something. It's the responsibility of the other players to interpret my behaviour correctly, it's not my responsibility to 'act correctly' in accordance to their own personal understanding of how a town player behaves vs. how a mafia player behaves - I'd have no way of knowing what that is.

If a player I think is mafia flips town I wouldn't want to be like 'that's your fault for acting scummy', I would be like 'that's my mistake, I misread the situation'.

What they said to me was ridiculous because they were like...trying to give me advice as to how to look more town or something like that? But I'm not trying to actively act like town, I would never do that, that would just confuse things because that's what mafia are trying to do. I'm just sorta like...playing the game how I play it, and this is outside what that player is used to.

Hmm.
UNVOTE: Trendall

I'm leaning to say this post doesn't come from scum. I'm trying to sort my frustration and read of this slot separate from each other and this post and making me lean a bit away from scum. I'll need to go back and ISO you soon and really evaluate things more deeply, but at this point with a 5-player wagon I think we've gotten more than enough from this wagon and I am not down with shredding you at this point anymore.

Backing down from a tunnel? Albert would be ashamed.

I think Noraa, Glitch, Trendall are all townies

why

Be patience my dear friends, as I am at work

!! what's going to happen? I'm excited

this reads as odd coming from a new person, more evidence it's Hectic

derp supports the noraa wagon, but derp would also like to see some more from this:

VOTE: plusjoyed

derp thinks u are coasting and u do random call outs that come across more as u trying to throw shade at players without really committing to it (flub) als if derp has to be completely honest he finds the interactions between u and noraa to be really odd and is not a fan of either slot

so dear derp would like to know what ur actual read on flub is

You could also vote people who aren't obvtown. Thanks.

I'll explain more later -

Vote: nopointactingup

Good. This had better be a wagon by the time I reach page 18.

[Hopkirk]

Just saw how many posts I've made. I'm so sorry. I guess I'm one of those 'hyperposters' now

Sorry guys - I got into a car accident. Nothing serious and I can continue but I'm not going to be writing anything tonight. I still think Trendall flips town and I feel pretty good about what I read (and read again) on nopoint.

Nice reads. Gl recovering.

I'm a Bob. Hello! Sleepy catchup incoming. While I read, somebody come tell me who to vote

Nopoint.

Just so you all know this is my first forum mafia game. My experience with mafia is with games that take 1-3 hours lol

Should you not have been in a newbie first? Is that not a rule anymore?

Not if you're ineligible for the newbie queue

[Hopkirk]

Town: Staarling, Plus, Hiraki, Trendall. Maybe Noraa. Maybe Keita (this one because 212 doesn't feel like how new scum would approach a wagon on town (this is also assuming new scum less likely to bus there))


Johnny's entrance and follow up is meh.
Flubber has no depth
Nopoint sus.

VOTE: Nopoint

[Hopkirk]

I'm getting so much paranoia from Staarling having her last online set to off.

[Hopkirk]

@Jackson - can we get replacements noted in the OP?

[Hopkirk]

I guess I'm a hyperposter now. Noraa was right, it does feel good.

[Hopkirk]

Huh, thirteen players. Felt more like eleven.

[Hopkirk]

I'm getting so much paranoia from Staarling having her last online set to off.

Plus Hectic isn't in any other games and you signed up to two at once around when the other ones he was in were finishing? Pretty suspicious.
Townlean even if it is Hectic, but less than if she isn't.

[Hopkirk]

@Hopkirk: i'm not the player hectic but i'm confused, does this mean you think i'm mafia?

There's someone on the site I play a lot with called hectic who's played under around twenty-thirty different accounts at this point - using many of these for 2-3 games then revealing it was him. You give me major 'hectic secretly pretending to be a new player vibes', and hectic almost definitely joined one or two games under new accounts at the exact same time you did - so there's solid circumstance/context based evidence you're secretly hectic.

If you aren't secretly hectic you're my strongest townread at say 90% town. If you are hectic then I'm leaning town on you but not as hard.

Town: Staarling, Plus

Walk me through these please

Do you think staarling is an alt, if she isn't then she feels really really obviously town. I can explain why, but I don't get how you wouldn't see it.

Plus I'll need to go over when I'm not phoneposting as it's easier to explain/quote that way.

[Hopkirk]

Ok, getting back to this first.

Town: Staarling, Plus

Walk me through these please

If Staarling isn't Hectic then these posts strike me as sincere newbtown thinking with a viewpoint/perspective on the game that's a lot less likely to come from newbscum (bolded):

Hi!!! this my first game, ever... So I might take a while to get used to it

It seems strange to me that there were so many votes on Bob before he even said anything. Is Bob the type of player the mafia would want dead?

My theory is that Noora might actually be scared of Bob catching her out so she's trying to get rid of him early and is then hiding it as an excuse of being scared of him being mafia

... but I'm going to keep my vote dormant until I'm more sure!

Glitch says a lot of people are lock things here. Plusjoyed is lock town and Flubbernugget is lock scum which I think means confident town and mafia reads but et me know if I'm wrong.

But isn't this too confident for so early on? I'm not sure what Glitch is seeing to be able to lock these players already. He would be my second person I'm keeping an eye on

.

Also if Glitch is mafia I think the reason he's so sure about these reads is because they're actually true so they're obvious to him but not us, if that makes sense, so he sees how plusjoyed is doing something which looks like town to him but doesn't to others, and the same for flubber who's doing something normal

but to him looks like mafia because he KNOWS he's mafia

. Does that make sense?

If we're struggling to get serious stuff going, how about we get no one today and try on the next day? We'll have a night of information then to work things out VOTE: Skip?

It's the kind of looking at things from weird angles that I can see a new town player thinking about but not really a new mafia player since a new mafia player with these thought processes has to be aware what they'd be thinking as town to get the one step removed thought process, and that's not the vibe I get from Staarling. They're either legit new, or 100% faking new, but they're not 20% new faking being 90% new. I can rephrase this if the wording is confusing.

If Hectic, townlean based on meta Hectic's mentioned himself that I'm reasonably sure applies to him including under alts.

PLUSJOY

Fairly light since this is mostly a guy/feels like town vibe.
In terms of specifics:

pt notes: keep glitch alive he townreads me

Pinged me as town.

I don't get vibes of Plus setting up any kind of gamestate.

I liked the progression Plus had on Noraa, felt reasonable/could follow it nicely.

[Hopkirk]

This slot is incredibly obvtown (obvious town)

Bad read.

not a townread on the most obvtown (new) player in the thread.

Even weirder.

Until I started getting alt-paranoia I was getting newbtown pings from staarling so hard that I was starting to SR anyone who wasn't declaring her a universal townread (UTR). What's wrong with the second part?

Hopkirk hates how I post and then posts like me lol. Bruh don't ever play with Norwegian if you dont like tons of one liners. Nothing wrong with how we play or post. We may post a lot but it isn't spam and if it weren't broken up it would be wall wars.

I like your thought of Staarling being an alt but your confidence on your TR on that slot is freaking weird to me. I also think your SR of nopoint is terrible and you haven't given any explanation at all. Your TR of Plusjoyed is also super shallow and while I'm trying not to SR you for just having opposite reads than me I am struggling with your reads because there isn't a case you've made on town/PJ or scum!no point.

Hirakis reads are almost all great.

Your opposition to my derp PL is non committal.
You and Trendalls relationship makes me slightly raise an eyebrow.

Noraa yes as I sort through who was on the Trendall wagon I'm clarifying reads and sorting players. And after that you're still my top pick.

Hopkirk what was underwhelming about my self meta?

JUMBLED THOUGHTS EVERYWHERE

Ok so

- Saying 'I hate hyperposters' then making ten posts in a row and repeatedly commenting on it is meant to be irony/joking. I generally have a couple of hundred posts in a relatively reasonably large game. I don't think I was making the humorous intent here particularly subtle. How were you interpreting my comments?

- If Staarling is an alt then she's still a TR, albeit lesser. Plusoy is a townread, as I explained, but obvtown was an overstatement. As a member of the ABR school of scumhunting I'm sure you're aware how much he suggests calling all of your townreads however slight obvtown and shouting at anyone foolish enough to disagree. You'd be in big trouble if he found out. I won't tell him this time, but you owe me a favour.

- Are you saying my READ or reasoning for my read of NP is bad here? I'm reading your comment as though you're saying scumreading him is terrible here.

- What's your problem with Derp? I didn't comment on any policy-lethal suggestions because why would that be a slot you'd PL? There's nothing wrong with how he's playing this game.

- I normally townread someone after selfmeta. Yours pinged as forced and didn't give me vibes at all. That didn't get you townpoints. Didn't get you scumpoints either, but still didn't get you townpoints.

[Hopkirk]

prod acknowledged.
I've caught up. I think I'm sick though (sinusitis)
Hopkirk seems pretty town.
derp feels kinda scummy. Going for someone for a "cursed post" seems scummy and opportunistic.
Why did you back off Trendall glitch? That's the slot I'm interested in going

What specifically seemed townie about my posting? I need to watch out for buddying.

is this how a normal game plays out here? this is confusing :<

If Hectic - the joke here is on the double meaning of 'normal' meaning a typical game, or this style of game (normal rather than theme/micro etc). Nice play on words if intended.

how dare u call derp out for voting on mr "obv town" +enjoyed and then have such a weak read

me still thinks ur hectic alt read is likely town but me not approve of that call out because now me think u might have tried to pocket additionaldelight

I wanted you to join the wagon and wanted to see if you'd join the wagon if I asked nicely. Sue me.
Actually pls don't. My lawyer hasn't quite got his degree yet, plus I've recently developed a worrying addiction to ramming into people's greenhouses with my car. I can't afford another court battle.

[Hopkirk]

It's mostly a gut read based on a one hour read of the thread and no interactions with any slots myself. I did overstate the strength of the read. Still a townread though.

[Hopkirk]

I tried looking at staarlings home site (claimed in a different post on this site) and you'd have to jump through quite a lot of hoops to actually find one of those games. Create account, weird forum layout, guests can't view. Given there's no results from the site when looking for mafia and no dedicated mafia forum on it deepens my suspicions ever further.

I really really hope this isn't hectic because then after the game I'd be able to mention to him how much paranoia he's bred in me and show him how convinced I was that she was him.

[Hopkirk]

A summary of the evidence @Noraa. It's late here so I might have missed a piece or two.

-Hectic frequently plays with gimmicks under his alts. Including one where he played pretending to be a new player (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=83358). I'm fairly sure he mentioned (months ago) one where he pretended to be new and asked a lot of stuff about why no lethal d1 and what omgus means etc, but not sure where.

-Hectic always sets his 'last online' status to off. I'd be surprised if before playing any games, Staarling worked out how to turn this off and turned it off. I don't think they started with an avatar either right?

-Hectic is in no other games under his main right now so is almost 100% playing under an alt somewhere at the moment.

-At least two-three of Hectic's games (under his name, so you'd expect his next ones to be with an alt) right before Staarling signed up for the game.

-Staarling has hit every mark that you'd expect a Hectic parody of a new player to hit including: 'Let's not lethal d1', questions about the edit button and 'what does pregame mean' feeling a bit as though they knew/were asking a lot of stuff to try and look new. Plus a lot of their reasons for suspicions/town reads on people seeming obvnewb simplistic.

-I've never seen someone ask if posts can be edited iirc, so the above pings me a lot as a question I thing fakenew Hectic is a lot more likely to ask than a real new player.

-A lot of the posting pings me as thinking that I could absolutely see Hectic writing it (I know Hectic fairly well irl btw, we've played hundred of hours of mafia together for one).

-Even starting their first post with 'Hi' pings Hectic because we joke about the 'newbie entrance tell' of new scum being more likely to use a h based greeting a lot. Fake/exaggerated new town Hectic would prob use that

-The homeforum thing makes me suspicious about the origin.

[Hopkirk]

FYI deadline is in 2 days.

Huh. Is this like a Blitz or what have you all been doing with the day.

I honestly feel like dear derp is more likely to be hectic than Staarling but idk.

Derp is confirmed not Hectic based on them playing together elsewhere.

[Hopkirk]

@Noraa: Does that mean you buy the Hectic-alt case too now, or that you think I'm just ridiculously paranoid?

(bearing in mind I've admitted I'm the kind of person who'd try and check other mafia forums to try and work out if she's Hectic which doesn't look good if I'm arguing not to be really paranoid)

What are your reads atm Noraa?

[Hopkirk]

How are people feeling about Flubber? He pinged me a couple of times.

[Hopkirk]

Why does it feel like Trendall and Noraa are both scum?
If Trendall flips scum I would be inclined to vote Noraa next.

Noraa, if you had to choose which of Glitch v Trendall is the scum and why?

I had small townpings from this. It feels like a weird approach for what would be a verynew hence likely weak (especially considering Keita's activity vs those they're attacking) scum to take. I feel like them going on you is more likely to come from town based on their presence to date. Weak read and the rest of the iso barely pings me either way though.

[Hopkirk]

I have minor pairing pings from Jonny/Flubber and Flubber/Bob-who-Jonny-Replaced interactions.

[Hopkirk]

If I had to call it now, and I'm glad I don't, (Flubber/Nopoint/Jonny) doesn't seem like the worst solve. Want to focus my thoughts on those three slots and try and get/deepen some existing townreads as priorities at the minute. I townread you btw Noraa, don't know if i mentioned that.

[Hopkirk]

I don't like Glitch or Keita. I'm not gonna even try to engage Glitch rn cuz frankly, its just frustrating and I have no interest spending my time talking to a wall.

You keep repeating the same thing about me and it's really irritating because you're trying to make look bad with a trash case, and yet it is swaying people's read on me based on inaccurate information (derp being a recent example). You're painting me as this arrogant, hard headed crank, like I think I'm the only one who could be right, and that I refuse to consider other people's perspectives. It's a misrep of how I have played considering that my 1v1 with Trendall ended with me conceding the fact that he made a good point about playstyls. I recognized that I was not fully accurate and had something to learn from Trendall, and yet here we are a week later and you're still going on about how "Glitch just has to be right all the time and if you step out of line then he will SR you." It's honestly bullshit and it pisses me off.

Well I'm sorry but that is entirely how I am seeing this game right now. I just feel like my opinions will be squashed the moment I engage you so I have found zero point in doing so.

So what if Noraa/Glitch/Trendall are all town? I can see that being the case tbh. Townreads on Noraa/Trendall atm. Not 100% on glitch, more towards the town end of the spectrum atm though, and want more thoughts there.

[Hopkirk]

I townread you btw Noraa, don't know if i mentioned that.

I don't think you have but also more importantly, why?

Someone said the had a meta read on you for tunneling a lot more as town = townpoints regardless of their alignment
You came off as good in the Glitch/Tren tangential stuff
Some of the pushing on you feels really eh

[Hopkirk]

How are people feeling about Flubber? He pinged me a couple of times.

am i getting sheeped right now

Woah, I could vote Flubber now then your vote would be sheeping me instead of vice versa.
Flubber pinged me a few times as really under the radary in the kind of null leaning whatever place a lot of scum seem to lurk.

[Hopkirk]

I'll probably talk about NP tomorrow after work and do a reread there more properly.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Flubber I kind of want to do this before I go to bed tbh

[Hopkirk]

Is deadline getting frozen while we're waiting on Beeboy replacement? Subbing in to a 12h deadline doesn't sound fun.

VOTE: Nopoint

I'll be able to switch my vote until like 11 GMT if it is deadline today

[Hopkirk]

Can you give some thoughts on Noplus Flubber?

@Staarling - you should always vote someone off d1 at odd number start. This has been shown so many times. If you're serious then you're wrong here and you should be voting someone.

[Hopkirk]

Based on player activity/ease of switching wagons at this point, I'd say yes.

[Hopkirk]

Six players haven't posted in a day and a half, so I don't see how we possibly lethal a mafia here tbh

My preferences are Flub>Nopoint

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Flub

I buy the claim. Was the softclaim I spotted for doc intended?

[Hopkirk]

Did you have any thoughts on my thoughts on Keita?

[Hopkirk]

pfp?

[Hopkirk]

Tiny good pings on them. If I had to pick then I'd say lurker town. Didn't scumping anywhere

Why does it feel like Trendall and Noraa are both scum?
If Trendall flips scum I would be inclined to vote Noraa next.

Noraa, if you had to choose which of Glitch v Trendall is the scum and why?

I had small townpings from this. It feels like a weird approach for what would be a verynew hence likely weak (especially considering Keita's activity vs those they're attacking) scum to take. I feel like them going on you is more likely to come from town based on their presence to date. Weak read and the rest of the iso barely pings me either way though.

[Hopkirk]

Flubber/Jonny/X is my current top bet.

[Hopkirk]

My defense is essentially they haven't scumpinged me. Where have they for you?

Also, you voting Flubber or nah?

[Hopkirk]

To clarify, that's a counterclaim?

[Hopkirk]

Just a standard doctor?

D1 hard CC is basically never scum right? Intent to vote plus.

[Hopkirk]

Is two doctors impossible in a normal?

[Hopkirk]

My preference would be to vote NP at this point and leave both for the minute tbh, but there's not exactly a lot of people online.

[Hopkirk]

Just a standard doctor?

D1 hard CC is basically never scum right? Intent to vote plus.

no. In my first game on site, my partner cc'ed plus and plus was a fn that game.

So your partner got voted out day 2? Was that a good trade?

[Hopkirk]

What role? Seems like an over the top sacrifice to remove a claimed doctor. They can just be nightkilled. A cop on the other hand is protected so it's more reasonable (albeit meh) to CC.

[Hopkirk]

If Plusjoy is scum then his team must suck

[Hopkirk]

hopkirk my dear friend u always vote for the plus something guy here or perhaps the dear and innocent derp

I want to take a look through past normals just in case. Idk much about how they do setup design nowadays.

If Plusjoy is scum then his team must suck

no matter what the scum team is here, I have a gut feeling that they suck cuz legit half the game is just coasting. Sometimes I feel like theres only like two people playing.

If Plusjoy is scum then his partners are inactive/low activity players since nobody even tried to counterwagon when I offered Flubber/when Noraa was as large a wagon. A good scumteam wouldn't let it get to a scenario where one of them is getting lethaled because town are too low activity to lethal anyone else.

[Hopkirk]

I guess I just don't want Plus to be scum because it means the game is going to be super meh/uninteresting tbh

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: PlusJoy

[Hopkirk]

If Plusjoy is scum then his partners are inactive/low activity players since nobody even tried to counterwagon when I offered Flubber/when Noraa was as large a wagon. A good scumteam wouldn't let it get to a scenario where one of them is getting lethaled because town are too low activity to lethal anyone else.

game is legit too dead for any of that shit.

That's what I said. If Plus is scum then he's scum with players who aren't doing anything since his partners would have done something.

[Hopkirk]

since derp is nice he will add one more thing before he disappears, hopkirk u need to realise that the counterwagons could in theory have been on scum as wel

Flubber probably isn't scum if Plusjoy isn't. That's about it for people who got wagoned and aren't scum because of that.

[Hopkirk]

If plusjoy is*

[Hopkirk]

So people don't want to skip today? Another problem is that sometimes the longer you play the more people will claim and mafia and serial killer will be able to kill all of the good roles. but if we skip they'll have no clue who it is and those roles can get us some goodies for the next day

The inclusion of serial killer here could be a scumslip.
Unless it's Hectic. Because this must be Hectic.

[Hopkirk]

That was a hammer right?

[Hopkirk]

Saying you've 'never played before' is clearly a lie:

Hi!!! this my first game, ever... So I might take a while to get used to it

[Hopkirk]

It affects how I read Star them substantially. If they're not a new player then it's a reeealy bad look that they were still going 'let's no vote' today. Fortunately, I have a plan for the next day to work it out for sure.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: derp

If it's two doctors we were screwed from the start by setup norms tbh because in any given game a fake claim is leagues more likely than it being the first one in over a thousand games to break a norm, then the norm breaking game becomes essentially a free win for mafia. I've already voted out one person I townread prior to claims, what's another one.

Two doctors hasn't happened in a normal, as far as I can tell, ever. Duplicate power roles essentially never happens too (unless one is a scum variant). D1 I was feeling like... Is this a two doctor game, I really feel like it could be, but there's no way I'm not voting the cc. If it's two docs then we're just screwed.

[Hopkirk]

Actually

[Invite] unvote [/unvote] I want to think about stuff first. Don't hammer. This could be two doctors.

[Hopkirk]

UNVOTE: Derp

So, I think I should have claimed this yesterday before we voting Plus since it's now essentially useless if we've voted out the doctor and are going to vote someone who

might still be a doctor

. I was going to claim it, but I realized Plus's vote was the hammer (I was pretty sure it wasn't mine like the VC says at the time, but I haven't verified this) and there was no point claiming after the hammer.

I am the doctor enabler

. If I die then any doctors in the game cease being able to protect people.

I want to think about this, but I don't think Doctor/Doctor/Doctor Enabler/Maybe another PR/2-3 mafia maybe including a RB or strongman is impossible.

[Hopkirk]

Staarling how do you know what a 'strongman' is if you've never played mafia before.

Also @Staarling - can you post something when you're online as there's a question I want to ask you then get an answer in essentially real time.

[Hopkirk]

This seems like a fairly typical example of a 13p normal (SK is possible too, if Staarling is new then they may have scumslipped Strongman Serial killer tbh)

Sound of Silence, Mafia Goon, lynched day 1
XScorpion replaced Mephistopheles, Vanilla Townie, died night 1
HayatoBL, Mafia Goon, lynched day 4
Aegor replaced WBOCampfire1104, Mafia Goon, lynched day 2
TunnelVision, Town Odd-Night Vigilante, survived
My Milked Eek, Town Two-Shot Cop, died night 3
RadiantCowbells, Vanilla Townie, died night 2
don_johnson, Vanilla Townie, survived
ICEninja, Town Doctor, died night 1
Flameaxe, Vanilla Townie, survived
frog replaced Cedolad, Vanilla Townie, survived
ChannelDelibird replaced Remembrance, Vanilla Townie, survived
BBmolla replaced Pieguyn, Vanilla Townie, died night 3

[Hopkirk]

Doctor enablers in general are ridiculously rare in general in all past normal games (viewtopic.php?f=53&t=15732)

I really should have tried to push harder to leave it since I wasn't 100% yesterday this wasn't two doctors (I was thinking about it but didn't really want to claim because Plus just fakeclaiming is more likely than this being the first time for it to happen). The other issue was we didn't have the people to get another lethal. Really disappointed in the people who weren't online towards the end of the day tbh.

[Hopkirk]

If my thinking here is right then mafia just kill the doc then kill me afterwards. We're now probably in 8/3 mountainous which is like 85% mafia win, so yeah.

Oh yeah, one kill = we're in the three mafia world here rather than a SK world almost certainly. Doc/Doc/Enabler/X other town PR vs 3 maf is my setup guess right now. I'm thinking another town role as the setup just dies to mafia hitting enabler n1 or enabler dying d1. Maybe 2 other town roles, but 1 is also an option

[Hopkirk]

On the other hand of course, Derp could just be scum who fakeclaimed to get the doc voted off despite the move being low benefit for scum. The good thing is that essentially Derp can keep me alive until mafia kill him, so mafia do have to shoot him eventually if they want to ever kill me/Derp since otherwise they're in major trouble as the game progresses.

If Derp is fakeclaiming then I think we root him out as the game progresses as there's probably 2 reasonably strong or maybe 3 other power roles (given I'm strictly a negative utility one, there's also the possibility of a cop and cop enabler or something like that in the game, idk I'm not super strong on setup spec as it's mostly just arbitrary and you can't get good evidence)

[Hopkirk]

Right now I'm confident Staarling is Hectic and the whole push for no vote yesterday and not being online at end of day is strictly a terrible look for an experienced player to take.

[Hopkirk]

Why's that the slim possibility for you? That's arguably the most likely scenario from a third party viewpoint imo.

I didn't massively think about it until after there was a hammer. I voted because it seemed less likely than it just being one scum and we were under very tight deadline crunch with the only other option basically being NL.

[Hopkirk]

Why would that be bastard modding. There's been a few games with 1 doctor enabler + 1 doctor but 0 with 2 doctors period (only looking at mini normals, haven't verified larges yet)

The issue with this being Derp scum is that Derp scum could have just sat back and got the Plus lethal anyway since there weren't really enough of us for another wagon to gain traction. Claiming that unneeded

[Hopkirk]

Oh yeah. It probably would have been a no vote or a quick counterwagon on Flubber seems reasonable?

[Hopkirk]

But I still have a massive hunch derp is town doctor and I'm looking at something like Flubber/Jonny/Bob's replacement atm.

[Hopkirk]

Trendall feels town to me. I liked their side of the earlier l-o-n-g conflict. I'm leaning on that being TvT. The game doesn't really feel like there's a vocal mafia influence in it.

[Hopkirk]

So if Hopkirk is a real doctor enabler then it's weird because why didn't they bring this up yesterday, like if you know you're a doctor enabler then it seems unlikely there'd be one of these just for one doctor.

But then if they were mafia it seems pointless to fake claim that just to protect derp, like surely just let them get eliminated? So I think Hopkirk and derp are probably both real.

UNVOTE:

I looked at the list of past setups. There has been enables for just one doctor several times. There has NEVER been two doctors in one game. That's why I said 'is two doctors possible in a normal' because it has literally never happened before in a mini normal.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Flub

I buy the claim. Was the softclaim I spotted for doc intended?

The post I quoted and said made PJ 'obvtown' was because I thought he was softing doctor. Also, this kind of implies I know there's a doctor.

Is two doctors impossible in a normal?

Odd question for anyone not an enabler.

My preference would be to vote NP at this point and leave both for the minute tbh, but there's not exactly a lot of people online.

I wanted to leave them both alive, then had to just take the risk we hit PJ.

VOTE: derp

If it's two doctors we were screwed from the start by setup norms tbh because in any given game a fake claim is leagues more likely than it being the first one in over a thousand games to break a norm, then the norm breaking game becomes essentially a free win for mafia. I've already voted out one person I townread prior to claims, what's another one.

Two doctors hasn't happened in a normal, as far as I can tell, ever. Duplicate power roles essentially never happens too (unless one is a scum variant). D1 I was feeling like... Is this a two doctor game, I really feel like it could be, but there's no way I'm not voting the cc. If it's two docs then we're just screwed.

I rethought things after this. Initially I was thinking there's no way this is two doctors, then while I was finishing a play through of 'Finding Paradise', a game that Hectic had recommended to me back in July, I decided it seemed like something I'd do as a mod since a lot of the other enabler setups were really uninteresting, along with the mod response to my question, Derp's play making no sense from scum, and it just feeling right.

[Hopkirk]

So if Hopkirk is a real doctor enabler then it's weird because why didn't they bring this up yesterday, like if you know you're a doctor enabler then it seems unlikely there'd be one of these just for one doctor.

But then if they were mafia it seems pointless to fake claim that just to protect derp, like surely just let them get eliminated? So I think Hopkirk and derp are probably both real.

UNVOTE:

I looked at the list of past setups.

Link to this?

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=29549
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=15732

On the one side, 2100 games without 2 doctors.
On the other side, a hunch.

No reason not for me to claim here since either way I'm essentially useless the moment a doctor claims.

[Hopkirk]

derp/hopkirk is a very possible solution. derp claims to get the doctor lynched and hopkirk gambits himself because the scum team thinks his cc sounds believable enough to prevent a derp lynch. It's a high risk high reward play but I don't think it's impossible. It would in fact explain hopkirk's vote for Plusjoyed yesterday

I really don't think it's high reward. It's essentially the same as 2 mafia members claiming to be neighbours (not quite masons) D1 for very little reason. It feels like all risk because if we're mafia then there's other power roles who'd be able to prove we were lying later. Both scum doesn't make sense because we know for 100% that one doctor isn't the full list of town PRS

I really don't get why I'd point out there's been a mafia enabler. I'm only concerned with enabler/doctor/doctor not having happened and doc/doc not having happened, and whether it feels likely based on that. Where does other setups featuring an enabler remotely come into it for me?

@slimeruralcommune - I'd like your thoughts on clubber and Jonny yeah.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: flubber if I forgot to earlier

[Hopkirk]

Me and Plus agreed flubber was a really bad slot yesterday and I wanted to wagon him. I tried instead of voting between docs initially before giving up. My iso has many reasons I dislike the slot. I'm not needlessly restating stuff that you could read if you wanted to because I'm phoneposting.

[Hopkirk]

@slimeruralcommune - I'd like your thoughts on clubber and Jonny yeah.

has slime even said anything game related? Also who'd they replace?

They've said 'anyone want me to iso anyone'.

I don't get why you're asking the question here, can you explain what you meant/why you were asking?

They replaced Bob who I had minor pings from.

[Hopkirk]

oh, I was mixing Bee/Bop up. Less important, but still useful to get another POV

[Hopkirk]

Me and Plus

*puts on grammar teacher glasses*

Hectic once gave me some good advice: 'Look boyo, you need to cool it with those full stops see? Thing's they'll read more genuine if they sound casual like, you get me fam?'
Obviously

there

the removal of full stops

their

also applies to adding any kind of grammatical errors to your posts, you read as LITERALLY one billion percent more genuine and

their's

only good outcomes that that method is

inferring

.

[Hopkirk]

there advice on the removal of full stops*

aw, I ruined my intentionally bad grammar with unintentionally bad grammar

[Hopkirk]

Likewise I don't see hopkirk scum outing themselves like this to save derp. I wanna tinfoil here but I don't think it's worth it.

Hopkirk and derp both town.

I can't catch up right now, life is too busy. Can I have a quick summary of where we are at? Is Derp off the table? Are we actually believing in 2 TOWN docs? From the little bit I have been able to play this game I am convinced Hopkirk is town.

Derp is off the table cuz enabler(Hopkirk) claimed. Still dont really understand wtf an enabler is but I think its just something that like confirms there are more than one doctors or something idk. Anyways, if you believe hopkirk is town, then u will have to believe derp's doc claim is real.

You're both misreading what I've said in the same way. I don't really get how you can skim it enough to be confident in it without understanding it.

Two doctors is unprecedented in mini normals. Mechanically, Derp is more likely to be scum. Derp town is just a theory/hunch I have.

[Hopkirk]

1.) My role is irrelevant
2.) I can't say 'don't lethal them I have a hunch' without revealing the hunch if I want it to work

[Hopkirk]

It can happen
It hasn't before
Based on how things happened + my role + a limited number of enablers happening in the past + a hunch + other pr claims giving more info naturally later I don't want the vote on derp.

[Hopkirk]

I'm going to start rereading stuff. Let's see if my solve of (Flubber/Nopoint/Johnny) holds up

[Hopkirk]

Thinking about it, this would have been such a big brain play from me if I was just a VT fishing to see who'd come out in support of the theory and consequently of Derp when they're given plausible deniability.

Noraa iso still seems fine. The tone is consistently a natural/excited viewpoint.
Keita/TSC too little for a solid read but are slight townleans. Either of them can flip scum without it being a real surprise.
Derp, Staarling, and Trendell I'm town on.
Time to reread Glitch.

[Hopkirk]

Quick look at Glitch's scumgames shows that he essentially hard busses partners in every game. He was attacking all 3 of his partners over the two games I saw. Makes me feel a lot better about the initial worries I was having over Glitch's reads. The iso feels sincere enough and I still want to TR it at the moment.

[Hopkirk]

So overall vibe I get from Flubber is that he's disinterested and trying to fly under the radar. Worked pretty well for him as no momentum built up around him and he caught next to no flack yesterday except from me and Plus.

If that's the case I prefer games where people don't teeter on the edge of throwing

I think they're just shitposting for shitposting's sake. I am interested if beeboy has some game related comments though.

No point quoting a ton of the early posting, but there's essentially no content in it.

that's two ppl making vague noises about glitch/noraa being svs now

Same vibes shine through in midgame. He's just following the game, standing back and letting it happen. There's no attempt or clear intent to get involved and it feels like a classic commentary>analysis approach.

Trendall/Nora pair slightly less likely

Flubber only feels focused on/engaging with a tiny portion of the game. Most of the slots he's not trying to engage with and I don't get any sense he cares about what's going on towards the end of the day. Feels like scum happy with the town inactivity, trying not to rock things, and letting it ride out to a content less end of day. Personally I was getting a lot of flashes of 'oh shit we need to do something soon' towards the end of yesterday and Flubber's posting here specifically sends out strong flashes of not caring about anything like that. I can't tell if he has a read on most of the slots, but he doesn't have any negative interactions with my more ~ slots and they seem to like him in general.

VOTE: plusjoy

Sometimes I like naked votes. Here I don't.
Flubber wagon didn't gain any serious traction yesterday and I didn't like that, felt like resistance.

[Hopkirk]

If we're struggling to get serious stuff going, how about we get no one today and try on the next day? We'll have a night of information then to work things out VOTE: Skip?

I love this post ngl.

Hard agree

Quoting for later

[Tinfoil]noraa, glitch, trendall[/tinfoil]

You still looking at these slots, would be interested in a reads update from you.

Echoing hopkirk town, still not sure on starlight, tho. I've seen newbtells, but still see genuinely overwhelmed newbscum as a possibility.

Can I hear some more about your thoughts on Star? I get anti-newbscum pings because if they

are

new then there's no way they're being coached in a scum PT. There's things that actively scream 'nobody is giving her advice in the posting' and she's far too open to putting out sincere sounding ideas/weird thought processes.

Honestly would be more willing to sheep a nopo vote than Flubber, not really sure what you're seeing there.

Still more happy with plus. His fake engagement is real smelly

How are you feeling on NP and Flubber now? I want to know why you wouldn't be happy to sheep there, because the slot had/has no redeeming qualities.

[Hopkirk]

Nopoint feels pretty bad. Anyone want to case the slot for me?

[Hopkirk]

Town: Staarling, Plus, Hiraki, Trendall. Maybe Noraa. Maybe Keita (this one because 212 doesn't feel like how new scum would approach a wagon on town (this is also assuming new scum less likely to bus there))


Johnny's entrance and follow up is meh.
Flubber has no depth
Nopoint sus.

VOTE: Nopoint

Did I solve the game within the first hour though is the real question.

Nopoint there's been a lot of wagon resistance too. Looking through interactions between the trio and its just weird town-neutral reads or stating 'kinda scummy' without follow up. I'm happy looking at those three for a while. A few active partner pings too. Throwing a low activity slot in the pool is is fair too.

[Hopkirk]

Mafia doc enabler + 2 town docs leads to weird stalematey scenarios which don't make sense from a game design perspective (eg 4 alive = mafia win by voting out one of their own members while town has to avoid voting mafia).

NP seems to be overlooking the obvious point that you just die tonight unless mafia want to play wifom with us, then I die the next night. Saying you'll 'wrongly protect Hop

every

night is weird.

He's also taking the stance that mafia want to take on the issue.
He doesn't comment on two doctors, he only mentions the enabler part of it and skits over the other elements of those games (e.g. there being more PRs, two doctors being weird).

I don't like his activity today, but his d1 is why I dislike his most.

@Derp - I'm thinking something like rolling a d3 and protecting me only on the three is a good sweet spot.

[Hopkirk]

Anyone going to wagon anyone except Noraa or nah?

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Nopoint

[Hopkirk]

Let's just hit scum then, you in?

[Hopkirk]

Note to self - nobody wants to vote Flubber for the second time, but nobody has any particular reason to like the slot beyond the slightest lean.

[Hopkirk]

I'm not 100% on Derp, but his slot resolves itself later in the game when we do know more about the setup, and the scum want to shoot him before that point anyway. No point anyone discussing how we read him today imo because if you are suspicious of him then he's less likely to be shot by mafia if he's town anyway.

why would there be two doctors if only the mafia can kill?

To block mafia kills targeted at two different people.

[Hopkirk]

Sorry guys - I got into a car accident. Nothing serious and I can continue but I'm not going to be writing anything tonight. I still think Trendall flips town and I feel pretty good about what I read (and read again) on nopoint.

I think we should go trendall, nopoint, or flub today

Sadly dead people can't wagon with me.

[Hopkirk]

You got a townread on NP Noraa?

[Hopkirk]

Why aren't you on this NP wagon Trendall.

[Hopkirk]

What's your readlist looking like now then.

[Hopkirk]

So your only two reads outside of claims are that you think the low hanging fruit are bad?
You may be neglecting this game.

[Hopkirk]

Neither is LHF. Keita talks nothing like a newbie and Staarling doesn't either. Neither has a big wagon which signals LHF. Both have laid low really successfully. I dont like it and I dont think either is LHF.

Unless I'm misinterpreting it, LHF = weaker slots who aren't going to be as good at defending themselves where you aren't going to get much pushback. Staarling/Keita have both

said

this is their first game (on this site).

Literally its actually stupid. All the wagons are on active people. Unless everyone here think the entire scum team is in the literal like 4 people that are actually talking, then we are certainly looking in the wrong places.

By 'active people' do you just mean 'everyone except Keita'.

Flubber sure as hell isn't active, he hadn't posted before end of day and made a prod dodge earlier.

Also your last point is ridiculously. Do you think all 3 scum are in the 2 newbie slots? You feel really lazy going for the easiest lethals when you haven't sorted most of the game.

[Hopkirk]

Keita can veryvery easily be scum, but I'm waiting to see what the inevitable replacement does tbh

[Hopkirk]

I wagoned you day one how the fuck is that 'quick'

[Hopkirk]

@nopoint: ohhhh i actually get what you're saying more now! it would make sense for there to be two doctors if there was a doctor enabler as well because then both of the doctors are less powerful

@Hopkirk: why didn't you say you were doctor enabler yesterday?

Hopkirk's thought process was something like this

D1

-'Damn no way there's no doctors'
-Looks through setups to see there's never been two doctors
-'Yeah, CC makes PJ super sus, time to vote'
...
-'Finding Paradise was a good game.'
-'Huh. What if there were two doctors. I should unvote.'
-'Oh, that sure looks like a hammer.'
-'Ah shit.'

d2
-'Lol derp scum. I was being dumb thinking two docs.'
-Although...'
-'Ah shit.'
-'I should probably claim.'

[Hopkirk]

@nopoint: ohhhh i actually get what you're saying more now! it would make sense for there to be two doctors if there was a doctor enabler as well because then both of the doctors are less powerful

@Hopkirk: why didn't you say you were doctor enabler yesterday?

The existence of a doctor enabler would explain well the existence of multiple doctors yes, though it's still a stretch for there to be two town doctors in the game. It would make much more sense if the enabler was mafia because mafia would be able to make the decision to lose one of their own to disable the doctors in town.

It's so weird you'd be suspicious of the enabler over

the second doctor

which is much more likely to be scum.

[Hopkirk]

@Hopkirk: what does CC mean?

Counterclaim, what Derp did.

D1

-'Damn no way there's no doctors'
-Looks through setups to see there's never been two doctors

-'Yeah, CC makes PJ super sus, time to vote'

...
-'Finding Paradise was a good game.'
-'Huh. What if there were two doctors. I should unvote.'
-'Oh, that sure looks like a hammer.'
-'Ah shit.'

d2
-'Lol derp scum. I was being dumb thinking two docs.'
-Although...'
-'Ah shit.'
-'I should probably claim.'

The problem I have with this is the line I bolded. Even if you thought that was a 1 doc - 1 scum scenario, it would be bad for town to make a 50-50 lynch on the doc there.

It would be great because the counterclaim is farfarfar more likely to be true and the likeliest case there is that PJ fakeclaimed and got caught out. I feel like you're not even trying to setup spec well here.

Hopkirk seems so townie with how he's figuring things out though, like when he went through all the past games to find doctors.. but i'm a little paranoid now

The thing is he would go through past games to find the number of possible doctors as both town and scum doctor enabler.

Scum me just wouldn't claim then would let town lethal Derp. Bringing the role up would be stupid because I'd be giving up a free lethal for a bit of towncred.

[Hopkirk]

Anyone 'town' who didn't bother checking in the 24h before the lethal doesn't deserve to survive. This includes Flubber/NP and is part of my sus.

@Noraa - Does whether or not Star is new impact on your read either way?

[Hopkirk]

It's really convenient for you to say what you'd have done at end of day NP when you hadn't been online for 60 hours and were sitting on wagon that was clearly going nowhere. That way you aren't on the lethal (or there's no lethal) and you can claim you thought whatever you wanted at the time without having had to have done it. We lethaled 2 hours before deadline, where were you the two and a half days before that?

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: nopoint

Why's Flubber not in your list TSC?

[Hopkirk]

So you know how you've repeatedly had nopoint at the top of your scumlist and said you'd sheep a vote there Johnny?

[Hopkirk]

A few things to note so far into the game:
1) I dont have a reads list yet. I'll try to get one soon but nothings clicking with me well enough yet :<
2) Plus is being awfully quiet. I have a terrible time trying to sort this slot and I literally almost always end up SRing this slot. Like legit last time I was in a game with him, I was scum and I legit for a second was like gosh plus is really sus. But seriously he is NEVER this quiet. I have super duper conflicting feelings about plus bc I straight up have never read him right before but I'd like to hear him respond to this as well as other people's opinions on Plus this game. Dont just look at this game tho. Def check out some meta bc he tends to always be a lil scummy and I have a hard time determining how scummy does he have to act for me to know he legitimately rolled scum bc I really can't tell.
3) aggressiveness idk if its normal for glitch cuz in the large theme that just ended with glitch, I do not think he tunneled me this hard. Like I was annoyed but I felt trendall was really frustrated at one point.
4) Do not be fooled by Bob's towniness. He fooled me to hell and back in Random facts. I take it that he just has a really towny playstyle but I haven't found what exactly can determine whether or not he is scum.
5) that's all for today. thanks for coming to my ted talk

1) I have a ranking at this point. It goes Glitch -> Trendall -> Hiraki - > Everyone null -> you for this post - > nopo -> Plus. With the caveat that if I'm wrong about one of Glitch / Trendall, I'm wrong about both because I don't see them on opposite teams here. You had nothing? By page THIRTEEN?

Honestly would be more willing to sheep a nopo vote than Flubber, not really sure what you're seeing there.

Still more happy with plus. His fake engagement is real smelly

Off the top of the dome staarling knowing what a strongman is and not having a consistent story about their experience level makes me nervous, but nothing strong enough to push. I'd push that over flubber, tho, which just feels like a lurker lim. Happy to vote nopo as well, they were one of the first posts I remember pointing out

It's a good wagon.

[Hopkirk]

I'd take Trendall out of there based on wagons and other stuff.

[Hopkirk]

VC 1.2

Trendall (4)

- Flubbernugget, Glitch, nopointinactingup, Keita

Glitch(3)

- Noraa, Trendall, derp

Staarling (1)

- bob3141

Hiraki (1)

- MisaTange

Flubbernugget (1)

- PlusJOYED

No Elimination (1)

- Staarling

Not Voting (2)

- beeboy, Hiraki

It takes 7 votes to hammer, meaning Trendall is at E-3

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-11-05 12:00:00)

Assuming Derp town, the Trendall wagon here is definitely scumdriven/supported.

[Hopkirk]

My scumpool just generally dislike Trendall and I liked his side of the Glitch/Trendall long 1v1 as town quite a bit.

[Hopkirk]

See now this is why I don't get how people don't want to wagon Flubber.

[Hopkirk]

Can you give some sort of reads list Flub? You have essentially as much content as Keita tbh

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Flubber

Literally all of my scumpool including the extended scumpool (except Keita) like you and can't seem to explain why. Multiple attempts at this wagon have gotten so much outright statements of resistance for a slot than half the game has as 'null lean town'. Like everyone seems to have a neutral read here. Nobody has a strong townread or scumread except me. We've just had wagons on Keita and Star for being low content. How and why is Flubber getting a pass here

[Hopkirk]

up to p 32

I believe all claims are truthful

This is at least a light town read. For me.

I have a problem with your read being based on

this

Starting to think my solve does have at least 2/3 of them.

[Hopkirk]

So overall vibe I get from Flubber is that he's disinterested and trying to fly under the radar. Worked pretty well for him as no momentum built up around him and he caught next to no flack yesterday except from me and Plus.

If that's the case I prefer games where people don't teeter on the edge of throwing

I think they're just shitposting for shitposting's sake. I am interested if beeboy has some game related comments though.

No point quoting a ton of the early posting, but there's essentially no content in it.

that's two ppl making vague noises about glitch/noraa being svs now

Same vibes shine through in midgame. He's just following the game, standing back and letting it happen. There's no attempt or clear intent to get involved and it feels like a classic commentary>analysis approach.

Trendall/Nora pair slightly less likely

Flubber only feels focused on/engaging with a tiny portion of the game. Most of the slots he's not trying to engage with and I don't get any sense he cares about what's going on towards the end of the day. Feels like scum happy with the town inactivity, trying not to rock things, and letting it ride out to a content less end of day. Personally I was getting a lot of flashes of 'oh shit we need to do something soon' towards the end of yesterday and Flubber's posting here specifically sends out strong flashes of not caring about anything like that. I can't tell if he has a read on most of the slots, but he doesn't have any negative interactions with my more ~ slots and they seem to like him in general.

VOTE: plusjoy

Sometimes I like naked votes. Here I don't.
Flubber wagon didn't gain any serious traction yesterday and I didn't like that, felt like resistance.

[Hopkirk]

You still haven't said why he's scum other than people don't want to vote him. I also don't want to vote Noraa, does that make her scum?

Did you check whether I had before saying this?

[Hopkirk]

Not checking for stuff like that makes you slightly less likely to be partners, damn.

[Hopkirk]

How the fuck can you say 'he only has 50 posts' as a reason not to have a read on someone after you just voted to lethal a first time player with 15?
Want to actually address my case on Flubber rather than repeatedly saying 'lol he never made a case?'

Had you not cc'ed, its very possible that I would've voted flubber with hoppy.

What? Why I am supposed to buy this? You put up active resistance to a Flubber wagon twice d1 before the claim. How would you have considered it d1 if you're still against it d2 when he was even worse?

Why do you think nobody except me wants to wagon Flubber here? Where's the town in Flubber's posting?

[Hopkirk]

actually hopkirk derp is going through day 1 again and once again derp is really bothered with the way u townread plus early on and called him obv town, but then when asked to explain it u retracted it and said it wasnt a strong read. it just feels like such a tmi read to throw out for pocketing or town cred on a potential misyeet bait

derp really wants to believe u are town for ur overall play and just because it makes today easier, so please just help fix derps paranoia

In post 21, PlusJOYED wrote:
pt notes: keep glitch alive he townreads me



PJ obvtown.

VOTE: Flub

I buy the claim. Was the softclaim I spotted for doc intended?

I townread him because I, knowing there was a doc in the game somewhere, hard felt like this was a doc softclaim and ran with it. That's why I quoted it before saying obvtown and didn't expand later on why. Plus also didn't occupy the zone you find scum in which gave him a townread outside of that, but not a 100% one like a doc soft would get. Kind of funny he later said this wasn't actually a sot.

VOTE: Flubber
This or Johnny are all I'm considering right now.

[Hopkirk]

Flubber I want to say is town because of all the uncertainty. Beginning lots of sentences with things like hmmm or uh is something that I find town does far more than scum. The reason is pretty obvious. Lel cuz scum legit know everyone's alignment whereas town does not and is therefore much less confident.

Townread Flubber for garbage reason. You seem to forget about your townread on Flubber when you nullpile him d2 and today.

In post 622, Hopkirk wrote:If Plusjoy is scum then his partners are inactive/low activity players since nobody even tried to counterwagon when I offered Flubber/when Noraa was as large a wagon. A good scumteam wouldn't let it get to a scenario where one of them is getting lethaled because town are too low activity to lethal anyone else.


game is legit too dead for any of that shit.

Against Flubber wagon here.

In post 716, Hopkirk wrote:
VOTE: flubber if I forgot to earlier
eggggggsplainn

hmmmm

Ok so I skimmed the iso. I do not see a full case on Flubber. All I see is flip flopping between Nopo and Flubber for .... basically no reason. ISO takes it out of context but from what I see, you dont really have a case on either.

You ignore my cases again and just dismiss them off hand as apparently not existing.
You iso multiple people but don’t bother with Flubber, or if you did then you didn’t post anything about it in the thread while you did for others.

Especially if I believe this is a hectic alt, this slot is low-key fishy. Like they push a lot of actively antitown things. Say they are a newbie but then often have posts that 100000% dont sound like a newbie made it. Also jumps on wagons for extremely strange things. I'm not a fan of the no point wagon nor am I a fan of the flubber wagon. Let's go here.
VOTE: Staarling

You’ve ever tried to push Flubber.
You’ve actively joined and pushed every alternate wagon to Flubber for garbage reasons.
You have a problem with Staarling and Keita for not posting enough content but you’re actively ‘not a fan of the Flubber wagon’
You seem fine with a policy vote on a low content slow, you admit several times Flubber is a no content slot because you said just now that you’re STILL null on them – despite never trying to develop your read here- and you’re actively against a Flubber vote.

You're feeling like a more likely partner for him than Nopoint tbh. Your stance is inconsistent across the game and your approach to other players and your thought process makes 0 sense.

[Hopkirk]

Why do you think nobody except me wants to wagon Flubber here? Where's the town in Flubber's posting?

it does seem very much like ur the only one that wants it.

Why don't any of the scum want to take the vote that conf.town is offering them?
Why is everyone so damn wishy washy on Flubber.
Why were 6 players happy to vote Keita since they were null on her but nobody willing to join me on Flubber?

[Hopkirk]

So overall vibe I get from Flubber is that he's disinterested and trying to fly under the radar. Worked pretty well for him as no momentum built up around him and he caught next to no flack yesterday except from me and Plus.

If that's the case I prefer games where people don't teeter on the edge of throwing

I think they're just shitposting for shitposting's sake. I am interested if beeboy has some game related comments though.

No point quoting a ton of the early posting, but there's essentially no content in it.

that's two ppl making vague noises about glitch/noraa being svs now

Same vibes shine through in midgame. He's just following the game, standing back and letting it happen. There's no attempt or clear intent to get involved and it feels like a classic commentary>analysis approach.

Trendall/Nora pair slightly less likely

Flubber only feels focused on/engaging with a tiny portion of the game. Most of the slots he's not trying to engage with and I don't get any sense he cares about what's going on towards the end of the day. Feels like scum happy with the town inactivity, trying not to rock things, and letting it ride out to a content less end of day. Personally I was getting a lot of flashes of 'oh shit we need to do something soon' towards the end of yesterday and Flubber's posting here specifically sends out strong flashes of not caring about anything like that. I can't tell if he has a read on most of the slots, but he doesn't have any negative interactions with my more ~ slots and they seem to like him in general.

VOTE: plusjoy

Sometimes I like naked votes. Here I don't.
Flubber wagon didn't gain any serious traction yesterday and I didn't like that, felt like resistance.

[Hopkirk]

but noraa could u go over why u believe hopkirks case on flubber is bad? because as i just said derps concenr is taht u never actually read his case

I asked him for a case. He said "go iso it urself"
I did it and there's basically nothing.

And there was nothing worth commenting on in the thread? If I believed that one I'd own a shit ton of bridges in Brooklyn by now.

You claimed you didn't see a case in my iso. Johnny said literally the same thing you did. I quoted it. Planning to miss it a third time?

[Hopkirk]

conf.town

ur not. and I do admit the resistance is strange.

Got any problem with my posting? Only shade on me this game has been bad setup spec.

[Hopkirk]

You got some kinda problem with me then you'd better lay that whack shit out in the open y'hear me?

Everyone who tries to put any shade on me is saying 'maybe his claim isn't true'. Nobody's even tried to address my content cause they know I'm a king here like.

[Hopkirk]

You gonna ride or die on the town Flubber then Noraa? I'm looking for your lock here.

[Hopkirk]

Spoiler:

So overall vibe I get from Flubber is that he's disinterested and trying to fly under the radar. Worked pretty well for him as no momentum built up around him and he caught next to no flack yesterday except from me and Plus.

If that's the case I prefer games where people don't teeter on the edge of throwing

I think they're just shitposting for shitposting's sake. I am interested if beeboy has some game related comments though.

No point quoting a ton of the early posting, but there's essentially no content in it.

that's two ppl making vague noises about glitch/noraa being svs now

Same vibes shine through in midgame. He's just following the game, standing back and letting it happen. There's no attempt or clear intent to get involved and it feels like a classic commentary>analysis approach.

Trendall/Nora pair slightly less likely

Flubber only feels focused on/engaging with a tiny portion of the game. Most of the slots he's not trying to engage with and I don't get any sense he cares about what's going on towards the end of the day. Feels like scum happy with the town inactivity, trying not to rock things, and letting it ride out to a content less end of day. Personally I was getting a lot of flashes of 'oh shit we need to do something soon' towards the end of yesterday and Flubber's posting here specifically sends out strong flashes of not caring about anything like that. I can't tell if he has a read on most of the slots, but he doesn't have any negative interactions with my more ~ slots and they seem to like him in general.

VOTE: plusjoy

Sometimes I like naked votes. Here I don't.
Flubber wagon didn't gain any serious traction yesterday and I didn't like that, felt like resistance.

I mean this case isn't even better than my Keita case....
To sum it up, ur whole case is "he has no content"
Thats kind of the case for almost everyone here?
My cases had more than that so I stuck to my own. duh.

'He has no content' isn't even remotely similar to 'He's actively lurking under the radar'.
Then I hear this shit with the Keita AND Staarling wagons going down while nobody wants to give that sus-ass mother even a piece of shade while half y'all ain't got no problem with him? Nah bro.

[Hopkirk]

OMG guys, starting to think Noraa and Flubbs are totes scum-OTP here

[Hopkirk]

1) why are you getting so heated?
2) Flubber is null and will stay null unless I see something that I believe is AI from him.

So if Flubber continues to do nothing you're lock-happy to take him to lylo?
He's avoiding pressure like a discount Russian acupuncturist.

[Hopkirk]

but then why defend him?

I never "defended" but I certainly prefer my wagons over a null read.

Pushing alternate wagons is defending.
Constantly saying you don't see a problem with him is defending.
Actively avoiding taking a stance with your words while opposing his wagon with your actions is defending.

[Hopkirk]

You got some kinda problem with me then you'd better lay that whack shit out in the open y'hear me?

Everyone who tries to put any shade on me is saying 'maybe his claim isn't true'. Nobody's even tried to address my content cause they know I'm a king here like.

derp is the king

but derp has also said that ur play has been very town

This is a team-up mate, we're both motherfuckin' royalty.

[Hopkirk]

I mean ok? If y'all think me "defending" flubber is sketch, good for u. I dont think I defended but I see no point arguing with two claimed prs on what the definition of the word "defending" is

IF you're going to frame it with 'arguing on definitions' rather than arguing over whether you did those things then you're conceding you did.
You think actively pushing opposing wagons isn't a move scum partners take to defend a partner? You mad tripping.

[Hopkirk]

you voting Flubber or nah Derp?

[Hopkirk]

Flubber/Johnny/Noraa is a very decent solve tbh

[Hopkirk]

Im also really interested in why both decided to tunnel me first thing once day started.

I'm pretty clearly hard tunneling Flubber here just like I have been since D1. I want you to get on that wagon. You're refusing and you're actively opposing it. Again.

[Hopkirk]

I'm no longer willing to vote NoPoint btw.

[Hopkirk]

I want you to get on that wagon. You're refusing and you're actively opposing it. Again.

you dont have good reasons. I can join the wagon if time runs out but I dont have an active SR there so no.

So you're planning to do nothing to develop any scumreads on anyone while spending the whole day doing nothing useful then join a wagon at deadline and complain nobody's doing anything in the game for a third day straight?

[Hopkirk]

Noraa, the Flubber lethal's imminent, what do you stall for? If you stand for nothing who are you gonna vote for?

[Hopkirk]

Do something then. Go through Flubber again. Form a read on someone.

[Hopkirk]

Actually give a meaningful thought process on Flubber's posts by quoting them and writing your thoughts on them.

[Hopkirk]

NoPo's posting around the doc claim stuff in 932 is so bad that I'm struggling to read him as bigbrain scum that's actually sincerely trying to lethal me and Derp anymore. It feels more like confused because if that's what he was going for then he'd make it make sense. Plus there's a few deadtown+Derp townreading him now.

Flubber train ah yeah

[Hopkirk]

No. Im putting this game on the back burner. Learn to appreciate an active noraa bc I stop whenever I want to.

If you have no reads two weeks into the game then you're not 'active'.

[Hopkirk]

Nopo being this concerned with setup is interesting and I would say perhaps its town indicative? As someone that never does setup spec no matter what, I dont understand it that hot but I do think that setup spec comes from town more than scum bc scum dont want town to know anymore about the setup than they started out with(basically nothing).
A lot of people SR this slot and honestly speaking, I dont see much wrong with this slot. They seem EH. Can someone make a case on him or reassess because I feel like I'm starting to TR this slot and I need some other opinions to help clear up my read.

would u mind explaining the nopo read?

his setup spec was kinda weird. Well, it made sense but it didnt seem like something town would think of. Town normally assume you are scum or both are town. I dont see town assuming docs are town and enabler is scum.

Like the possibility makes sense and I agree it seems p logical. The problem is that I dont think town think of it.

When did you stop liking the setup spec?

[Hopkirk]

VCs make me think it's definitely not Johnny/NP together like I was thinking yesterday. Specifically Johnny switching from NP over to a new wagon on Keita rather than making Noraa (who he'd just been voting) the leading wagon doesn't make sense as a scumpartner launching a counterwagon so no longer feeling that pairing.
NP could pretty easily be town here. I'll need to review, but might be a town lean tbh.

[Hopkirk]

Damn is it ello?

Noraa seems flaily in a way I've never seen in her before. Maybe a little at the end of betrayal, but that seemed less frustrated?

Hopkirk your flubber case was weak, and we're approaching "this is a pet read for hopkirk to coast by on" territory. Why are you voting Flubber and not me, for example?

'Hopkirk has a scumread on Flubber and nobody else can bother posting or voting for anyone except newbies'
Nobody else is trying to push anything. Keita was the only meaningful wagon yesterday and it was a bad deadline essentially policy lethal. Giving me shit for actually trying to push someone makes you ping as a partner for Flubber hard. Are you still townreading Flubber?
(I say still because I assume you were before since you're defending them here)

I hate this game.

Actually I like the playerlist tbh, I just wish it was more active.

[Hopkirk]

To address each of your points there, but first off I'll address the one that your thoughts rely on that's objectively not true. I can't engage with you in any meaningful way until you accept the first premise below because everything you're saying is based off the premise there's 'no alternative' to your thoughts when you're ignoring a very clear and much more likely explination:

At this point, as an doc-enabler, he should be 100% sure that Plus is the real doctor and it was reflected in his revote.

If you were a doctor enabler, had seen no game had EVER had two doctors in it before, and there are two doctor claims then are you going to either
a.) 100% sure there must be two doctors in this game with no reasons to support this
b.) Think the first doctor claim is a claim from scum who got caught out by a counterclaim (this happens all the time in mafia)

The fact that you're considering b as

literally 0% likely

makes everything you say hard conf.bias and objectively bad. There's a very clear reason for town DE to vote what he thinks is probably a fakeclaim. Why is it LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE that town-Hop thinks that PJ is probably scum that got caught out on a fakeclaim? You have said this outright because you can't see 'any plausible' alternative your your theory.

----
On to more specific points

- PJ immediately said that he hadn't softclaimed. Scum and town PJ both say that because scum PJ doesn't want to say 'yes' because he didn't and doesn't want to get caught out, while town PJ doesn't want to say 'yes' because he didn't and doesn't want to lie.
- I vote PJ because a counterclaim is 100% more believable than an initial claim because scum (unless they're in a bad spot already) doesn't have the incentive to counterclaim that town do.
-Scum PJ wouldn't know there was a doc? That's why I assumed they got caught out on a CC.
- I suggested we vote for someone else. The doc claimers didn't want to do this.
- If PJ is scum there then I absolutely don't want to claim.

Now when I questioned him, all I've gotten are deflections (saying I'm making bad set-up speculations) and excuses, this makes him seem even scummier imo.

This is a terrible faith argument. I've outlined my thought processes throughout. Using the word 'excuses' here makes me think there isn't any argument you'd accept. What I bought when I voted PJ was that Derp was town, NOT that there were two doctors in the game. That's very clearly why I voted PJ

[Hopkirk]

I kind of feel like Nopoint is town here because there's a much better vector of attack scum-NP could be taking.

Fun fact - there's a pretty good mechanical reason that a doctor enabler should look fishy that I'm really surprised nobody has mentioned. Doctor enabler claiming at the start of the game means doc can protect them thus nullifying the mafia's ability to swtich doc off. Likewise, two docs can protect in a loop. People have suggested the mafia having a strongman as a way around this, or a roleblocker. While this works initially, the game balance gets screwey if one of the mafia with those abilities died. Fortunately for our mod though, there's a solution to that. Make the doctor enabler immune to the doctor heal so that mafia can always switch off the doctors. Better yet, make the doc enabler aware of this so that they can't claim while the doctors aren't around. That's called a 'macho' role modifier

@Derp - I'm thinking something like rolling a d3 and protecting me only on the three is a good sweet spot.

Which is why I told Derp to only protect me at a very low % chance yesterday. If I'm not macho then you set that to like 60-80% of the time protect me rather than the 30% I suggested.

Why am I claiming this now? Because mafia might have worked this out either now or later. Plus I don't really want to be playing this game anymore. It feels like pulling teeth, or it would if anyone actually showed up. Maybe hide and seek and pull one tooth out of anyone you find then let them hide again would be a better description.


Btw to anyone saying mafia doc enabler/doc/doc is possible - its not because it can lead to weird endgame situations that a game reviewer leads to weird situations like mafia/mafia doc enabler/doc/doc that's technically a draw, despite being a win for mafia if they vote off their own enabler, or either town.
Also, mafia's only counterplay to docs being for a specific member of their team dying is mechanically terrible because they can't guarantee getting that person voted off and it cripples their team. A mafia 'doc enabler' gives the mafia 0 counterplay to two town docs claiming and trusting each other and this would NEVER pass setup review for a normal. They need some way around it, so you'd have to have like a strongman and a roleblocker as well to balance it around that... at which point the doc enabler isn't even relevant to the setup balance.

[Hopkirk]

Honestly I would vote flubber but the thing keeping me off is you, hopkirk, and your insistence he's scum.

Derp who did you defend last night?

What the fuck? There's absolutely no reason to be saying this without a vote on me.

If you don't want to wagon Flubber because you think someone attacking him might be scum then you should be actively against me rather than hard shading here.

Flubber/Johnny are the only votes I'm considering today. I don't remotely care which because Its both.

[Hopkirk]

up to p 32

I believe all claims are truthful

Town Flubber is here

This is not a reason to townread someone. Johnny has refused to elaborate how he justifies his (what looks like a hard) townread on Flubber based on this. I've asked him to elaborate more than once.

You know what let's do it. This game and it's deadness is depressing me

VOTE: keita

People that read this join or tell me why not

This vote was shit.

Damn is it ello?

Noraa seems flaily in a way I've never seen in her before. Maybe a little at the end of betrayal, but that seemed less frustrated?

Hopkirk your flubber case was weak, and we're approaching "this is a pet read for hopkirk to coast by on" territory. Why are you voting Flubber and not me, for example?

How about you get some goddamn reads before you even consider attacking me for having reads. Including lockscum on you.

[Hopkirk]

I honestly hate this game at this point. Glitch and Derp are the only other people who seem to even remotely care about it enough to put any amount of effort in. We've had two days of shit where nobody wants to vote and we can't get anything done. Literally half the game has no reads and nobody cares. We haven't had even one decent wagon the entire game. The only vote people wanted to go with yesterday was essentially a policy lethal. Mafia only works if people who join actually play. I hate people who join games then refuse to do anything.

Johnny or Flubber. Take your pick.

[Hopkirk]

Slime is trully a weird kill. I'd think the scums would ... be more worried about the outed prs?
Maybe I'm overthinking but I almost think atm that one of the outed is scum and the scum team is keeping both alive to like idk provide cover for the other....

The only reason scum has to not kill in the claims is if they're in that set of people

Really, that's the only reason? It objectively isn't. If you're town then you're saying it hasn't crossed your mind that scum aren't killing the claims so that town (like yourself in this example) want to vote them because they think they must be scum for not getting killed?

Its literally one of the most classical examples of wifom this is. You've been playing long enough to know what wifom is.

[Hopkirk]

Flubber not checking Derp is insanely odd play if Flubber is town. If Derp is scum then he's far more likely to be scum fakeclaiming doc than he is to be a scum doc. I don't get how Flubber, after we vote out PJ n1, would think 'that must be a scum doc, not just a scum fakeclaiming doc' at 100% likelihood rather.

I could believe 'Derp is just scum that's getting voted out tomorrow so not worth a check' but not 'either town doc or scum doc, no way he's just scum fakeclaiming a different role.'

[Hopkirk]

Given we've had more than enough claims for a reasonably balanced setup, this seems like massclaim time.

[Hopkirk]

Rolecop makes a lot of sense for scum to have to deal with doctor/doctor/enabler.

[Hopkirk]

flubber, if u were a role cop and have suspicions on these prs, why didn't u just like ... check them night 1 and 2?

There's no reasonable reason not to have done this, agreed.

Anyway

HARDCLAIM ROLE COP

What are your results so far

I have an investigation on staarling

Explain in a lot more depth because you're still the scummiest person here bar mayyyybe Johnny.

Or is flub a maf goon willing to 1v1 and for in order to get town PR derp eliminated?

as opposed to just...killing the town pr derp?

Because Flubber is under fire.
Because Flubber wants to vote out town derp.
Because getting rid of Derp today then me tomorrow means tomorrow is 7 alive with 3 scum. After the Flubber lethal that's 2 scum in 5. Scum trading a scum that's already the biggest wagon for a power role (and the obvious kill that follows) is a great deal at this stage of the game.

by far the best claim so far is rolecop bc its actually ... provable

Its provable if he has a way to prove it. He doesn't because he hasn't got any results so it hasn't been proven. The only way to prove it here would be getting a result on a scum role fakeclaiming. Absolutely not provable and you lose points for saying it is.

still 4 prs

What exactly do you think unprecedented means?

So looking at the last 10 13p games in the archives (link below) we have town prs of 4,6,4,5,4,3,3,4,4,4,4,4,5

That 5 at the end includes - unlimited gunsmith, gunsmith backup, unlimited vigilante, odd night tracker, Novice vanilla cop vs mafia 1 shot doctor, mafia goon, and even-night watcher.

And those are without even considering enabler is negative utility.

One shot gunsmith
? Rolecop
Macho Enabler
Doctor

Is ridiculously underpowered. Unless there's another claim then either Derp is town or we've got the weakest set of power roles in years.
Doc/Doc/Macho Doc Enabler/One-shot Gunsmith is roughly what I was considering as a reasonable setup at the start of d2 (2 docs + some light investigative)

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=29549

yeah I have a modifier

What is it?

[Hopkirk]

Johnny should be the next claim, but everyone should be claiming here. This is a big part of why I said leave Derp, his role gets resolved by setup balance considerations when we massclaim. Currently, he's looking like definite town as required for balance.

[Hopkirk]

It would be great if someone else has an ability to confirm the roll top with an identity that has not been fully revealed yet. I know that math claim is important right now so I do not oppose that but if anyone has a modifier or some sort of detail to their role that they can not out during mass claim then we can force Flubber into a WIFOM between me and the other person. If Flubber truly is scum then he could just kill me tonight and have that beat his way out having two roll- cop me. The more I think about it though, the more it doesn't really help. Sorry I'm thinking through this and doing text to tight while I drive. As I'm thinking through it even if we confirm him as roll cop I don't know that it helps much with his alignment because I've never seen a town roll cop only scum role cop. I'm down with trying to confirm him as role cop anyways but even if we do I don't know that it just means he's lock town.

Scum role cop really makes sense with an enabler in the game that mafia want to hit as soon as possible. It makes more sense than town rolecop just being thrown in. I don't really see the point testing over lethaling unless you want to lethal Johnny today or something.

[Hopkirk]

Like scum rolecop is one of the only three counterplays to double docs that I can see in the allowed list for normal: strongman/roleblocker being the others. Scum rolecop is very likely to exist in the setup. Town rolecop would essentially do little except allow follow the cop (cop finding doctor) or find strongman/rb scum roles tbh

[Hopkirk]

Scum rolecip means scum actually have a chance of finding out about the doctors and the possible hider. They need something like this for the setup to be ok.

maybe it's just a pet idea on my part but I still feel like the investigations in this game are set up to throw a lot of false positives on alignment

Literally just your claim you mean since the other investigative is very cut and dry and can't get false results in a non bastard normal?

I am hider with modifier that I won't reveal for obvious reasons. Some PR claims are scum or fake here

Possible. I could see hider working with the docs and the enabler plus gunsmith

Flubber claim fits into the scum team but bit the town PRS. Flubber is really scummy outside of that. Johnny is partner. Will reread stuff but Noraa seems a possible third.

[Hopkirk]

Reads

Derp+Glitch - Town trueclaiming
Staarling - Town
Nopoint - Reasonable to be town trueclaiming. I'd lean town with a note to reevaluate based on flips
(Noraa/Trendall) - Probably one scum here. I should reread the interactions at some point. Trendall has been coasting hard post d1 which I've only especially noticed now.
(Flubber/Johnny)- Scumreads

[Hopkirk]

Doc/Doc/-ve utility enabler/One shot X.GS/X.Hider + Scum rolecop + scum goon + scum strongman seems like a reasonable call for the setup

2 docs + hider keeps the investigatives close to invincible. That's batshit insane

How does Hider do anything to boost the gunsmith's suitability?

[Hopkirk]

We haven't had a VC in 5 days, I think this is kind of right:

Flubber – Hop (idk), Derp (1065) Staaring (1109) – L2
Johnny – Trendall (1223) -L4
Derp – Glitch (1137), Flubber (1147) -L3
Trendall – Nopoint (1128) – L2
Not Voting- Johnny, Norra -Wow, its two days to deadline

Flubber voting Derp is a scumclaim.
@Noraa – you know if you’re town you should probably vote before deadline at some point this game.

[Hopkirk]

I don't understand why anyone would vote Derp here unless they're 100% that Me/Flubber/Nopoint/Glitch are all town.
Doctor/Enabler/Limited Rolecop/X Hider/OS Gunsmith already feels too weak compared to all of the other stuff I've looked through for setups. Taking out one of those without adding the doctor in is a definite nope.

Glitch - why are you still on Derp right now?

Johnny is the other wagon I'd consider.

[Hopkirk]

I need to look at trend/Noraa again because they're not against each other like I thought they were.

[Hopkirk]

Hm, Staarling has used the word 'deepwolf' despite nobody in any of their games ever defining it, without Staarling asking about it, and without it appearing on the wiki. Where'd you hear that term Staarling?

I'm not sure if I'll have time for a proper reread pre deadline. I trust all the claims except Flubber (unless Flubber flips town).

I can do Johnny or Flubber.

[Hopkirk]

viewtopic.php?p=12326566#p12326566

Star using the term 'ultra deepwolf'. She's asked about a lot of term this game but never asked what deepwolf' meant in her other (now conplete) game.

[Hopkirk]

Hectic is just the kind of guy that makes you really paranoid. I know he's

probably

not on my roof right now, but I can't be certain.

You've asked about a lot of terms this game, which makes it seems kind of weird that you a.) didn't ask what 'deepwolf' meant when a few players used it in that game (as though you knew what it meant already) then following this b.) used it yourself in a correct context.

Why did you hide your online activity so early, and how did you know that was something you could do?

I'm not asking this because I think you're bad. You're leaning good whether you're Hectic or whether you're just new to the site (and really confused why everyone thinks you might be some random player you've never heard of/met).

[Hopkirk]

'Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-25 00:00:00)'

I think deadline is in 8 hours but unsure because this looks broken. @JacksonVirgo?

[Hopkirk]

I didn't push you because Johnny + whichever one was fakeclaimimg a pr were more obvious.

This game was incredibly painful. I spent the whole time pushing scum + flubber and Johnny survived the entire game. Nopoint didn't get auto flipped like he should have that lasts day like... How could anyone see flubber flip a PR there and not vote either nopoint or derp? There's no way that's the setup.

Every single part of this hurt. I blame Keira, flubber, and hectic not engaging enough. The town was hurt a lot here by a good half of the town being either unwilling or unable to post.

[Hopkirk]

Like I honestly don't see what I can do when almost half the town are barely playing. All of my townreads were right. I solved the doc element of the game and I was constantly pushing scum. This game was painful in that it was clearly winnable if the town actually tried but nobody seemed to care.

[Hopkirk]

The setup kind of relies on whoever gets my role realising what the gimmick is and working out the setup. I feel like if anyone else had gotten this role then they wouldn't have ever considered two doctors based on the overwhelming resistance to setup/balance judgement that went on.

[Hopkirk]

I think the setup itself was fine as long as the macho doctor enabler is willing to consider the second doctor claim. Realistically the second claim is almost always going to come after a doctor has already flipped rather than as a CC before a flip, so this was one of the more unlikely cases.

[Hopkirk]

I think you made a crucial mistake on D1, lynching a doctor claim when your role tells you that at least one doctor exist. Objectively speaking, even a No Lynch would've been better at that point. I kinda understood later on that you didn't want to reveal your role because you were macho so as soon as you hinted at it, we were getting ready to NK you.

Pre doctor flip it's far more likely that we're living in the world where there's one doc and plusjoy just got caught on a fakeclaim because that's what the case had been in every other game where this would have happened. I didn't think there were two docs D1, I thought derp was 99% doc. I didn't think 2 docs was likely at all pre flip.

[Hopkirk]

I'm very proud of my case on hectic.

[Hopkirk]

Hectic did catch her.

[Hopkirk]

your newbie alts are a bad idea hectic

[Hopkirk]

your newbie alts are a bad idea hectic

would've got away with it too if not for your Hectic-case :<
i guess i could've revealed and cased Noraa at the end but you gotta play the gimmick out, it's just a principle thing

Ooooooor when you really need to post like in this game where not revealing hurt us at the end especially, you could declare that wasn't even our final form and reveal you've been hectic all along

[Hopkirk]

Your final form

[Hopkirk]

nobody said they were an alt until I subbed into the game and hectic cased them immediately

now hectic knows that his alts are easily caught by the fact they all hide their online activity (which a real new player wouldn't do) he should be tougher to catch out, so gl

[Hopkirk]

I've had years of practice hunting hectic clones.

[Hopkirk]

did you actually look at that random harry potter roleplay you claimed to play mafia on? I don't think it was even a mafia site

[Hopkirk]

tbf I wouldn't have looked unless I was trying to verify your identity there, especially since it was I'm star's other game that you posted it.