[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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10 Vanilla Town
2 Goons
Night Start
Goons do not know the other goon
Each night goons submit a list of all other players in their order of prefrence for night kills. Top spot gets X points (where X+1 is all living players), all the way down to last who get one. Points are added by the mod and the highest ranked town player gets killed.
As the game goes on the goons might be able to infer who the other one is a bit, and start playing like a team, just might be an interesting concept.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Well it is an open game...Seraphim wrote:
I like this. Just make sure that the scum PM is posted publicly so that the scum don't try and confirm each other.LlamaFluff wrote:10 Vanilla Town
2 Goons
Night Start
Goons do not know the other goon
Each night goons submit a list of all other players in their order of prefrence for night kills. Top spot gets X points (where X+1 is all living players), all the way down to last who get one. Points are added by the mod and the highest ranked town player gets killed.
As the game goes on the goons might be able to infer who the other one is a bit, and start playing like a team, just might be an interesting concept.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Setup Name: Molehill Mafia
I just ran this setup in this game. The setup is a 10:2 mountainous game, but with one modification to the vanilla/goon roles. Each player has a ranking from 1-12, and during night phases, they are allowed to target another player, making everyone a neighborizer. Anyone who targets a lower ranked player starts a QT with them. Mafia ranks can be randomized and work in any spot.
This is just a small modification to bring life back into the classic mountainous setup, a way to keep the interest in the game that is normally lost by most people who draw vanilla roles. I think this makes a good open setup, as its simple, yet still allows for heavy flavor addition for the mod while sticking to a setup that is balanced. A good inbetween setup for the open and the theme games.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Would a quick shift in newbie work to do something like
random between
1) 1 Cop, 1 Doctor, 5 Vanilla, 2 Mafia Roleblocker
2) 1 Cop, 1 Unliscensed Doctor, 5 Vanilla, 1 Mafia RB, 1 Mafia Goon
3) 1 Macho Cop, 1 Doctor, 5 Vanilla, 1 Mafia RB, 1 Mafia Goon
4) 1 Macho Cop, 1 Unliscensed Doctor, 5 Vanilla, 2 Mafia RB
Just tweaking the game a bit to add more (hopefully) of a town advantage, especially to setup 4 where town just gets blasted in the game. UD is doc that fails if they target the cop, leaving the 2RB on setup 1 and 4 is to leave the setup only half known for scum, much like the RB signaling both or niether role in F11.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Not intended to replace newbie setup. Just a modification of one for basic play.ConSpiracy wrote:
ThisLlamaFluff wrote:Would a quick shift in newbie work to do something like
random between
1) 1 Cop, 1 Doctor, 5 Vanilla, 2 Mafia Roleblocker
2) 1 Cop, 1 Unliscensed Doctor, 5 Vanilla, 1 Mafia RB, 1 Mafia Goon
3) 1 Macho Cop, 1 Doctor, 5 Vanilla, 1 Mafia RB, 1 Mafia Goon
4) 1 Macho Cop, 1 Unliscensed Doctor, 5 Vanilla, 2 Mafia RB
Just tweaking the game a bit to add more (hopefully) of a town advantage, especially to setup 4 where town just gets blasted in the game. UD is doc that fails if they target the cop, leaving the 2RB on setup 1 and 4 is to leave the setup only half known for scum, much like the RB signaling both or niether role in F11.
This is the reason behind it. Its common practice for the cop/doc setup to be regarded as "more fun" by players, so this is a way to always have a cop and doc around, just possibly weaker versions of it.Herodotus wrote:
It makes a difference whether the cop knows that they can't be protected, or if the doc knows there's no reason to ever protect a claimed cop, etc.bv310 wrote:Where's the difference between 2, 3, & 4? Is it in rolename only?
In fact, that's one great selling point: UD and MC is better than UD and cop, or doc and MC.
Thats normally my rule for games. If there is just one member left they can then start performing a kill and active action. Giving scum two RBers in the cop/doc helps balance it a bit. In the WC/UD it leaves scum not sure as to what they are up against.
Effectively it is a group ability, if one of the mafia is performing the RB and the other is performing the kill (presumably a lone mafia RB can use both abilities during the same night.)Faraday wrote:2 roleblockers seem a bit strong. Could always make it a group abillity, b ut for a newbie game that'd be weird.
Again, this is NOT a newbie game setup. Just a regular open game that is a modification of the newbie (F11) setup.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Well I will be the one to say it.
I dont think we should ever have any open games that have a jester in them. Jesters go against everything that is mafia, by actively punishing the town for scumhunting players who look scummy. It creates a lot of WIFOM as the town now has to decide if the player who reads as scum actually is trying to get lynched because it lets them win the game. While it may be able to be balanced in the long run, I just really dont see it as being something that should be ran since it is about as close to being "not mafia" as you can while still staying in the relm of actually working. It just (again no offense) sounds like one of those setups that is going to be loved by the VI players, while most of the vet players avoid it at almost all costs. Jesters are just wrong as a role, and I do not want them in open games.
I think vengeful should be eliminated as well but thats another story and for different reasons-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Notice I said "other reasons" there. Its fine as mafia, its not fine as a prerequisite to mod anything else since its over in five pages.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Ah, well. I still think Jester games should not be allowed in the open database, or for any game for that matter without explicit warning from the mod that there may be a jester in the game so people who dont want to play with one know to avoid the game.
Let say that day one in scum says "im the jester" in his first post. The jester counter claims. Boom setup broken. Town now has a 50-50 chance of winning the game and a 50-50 chance of losing the game. Zero skill involved from here on.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Oh yeah the suicide thing stops that breakage, although it also relies on town knowingly lynching town twice which is a sign of a problem again.
I think the setup is just not a good one for the open queue because it has a jester, which is toeing the line of "not mafia". Any setup where town can lose the game by lynching someone who is not town, which is exactly what they are supposed to do, has some serious flaws in it. As a closed setup with a warning of there being a jester, fine, but I think a jester game is not something that should be commonly occuring on the site, since it teaches things that are damaging to play outside of jester games.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Eliminate the not-town people is the goal of mafia. Jesters change the goal to eliminate the non-town people but not one of the non-town people or you lose. I may be odd (since my favorite three opens are Jungle Republis, 8:4 Nightless and 10:2 Mountain), but I dont think a jester game needs to be added to open possibilites.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Jesters are almost universally hated though. Yes I think the game is going to go though, but I really dont think that its a good setup to expose to the open queue. It can work, but as I said, any setup where town loses for doing the right thing (lynching anti town) is flawed. Its why you lynch all neutral claims in closed setups, its the best plan of attack for town, this setup makes non-optimal play "correct"-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Cult Multiball (Culti-Ball?)
1x Red Cult Leader
1x Purple Cult Leader
1x Red Cult Cop
1x Purple Cult Cop
1x Vigilantee
0-2 (random) Strong Willed Townie
0-2 (random) Weak Willed Townie
10-14 Vanilla Townie
*Instant action night
*Each cult member can attempt to recruit three times per game, once per night (regardless of success)
*If both cults target the same player, that player dies of insanity
*Strong willed cant be recruited
*Weak willed dies if attempted to be recruited
*Cult is unable to recruit vig, cop and other cult
*Cops get positive on leader and members
*Cult wins when they make up half the town
*Cult A = Cult B at endgame is massacre, town win.
~Action orders
*Recruit
*Investigate
*Kill-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Empowered Mafia
2x Town Empowerer
0-1x Town Cop
0-1x Town Doctor
0-1x Town Tracker
0-1x Town Vigilantee
0-1x Town Hider
0-1x Town Voyure
0-6x Town Townie
1x Mafia Empowerer
1x Mafia Roleblocker
1x Mafia Backup
*Empowerer targets one player each night, that players role will actually work.
*Unempowered player actions fail
*All Empowerers are unable to be protected
*Mafia Backup takes on role of first player to die (empowerer or not)
*Mafia Vig can exist due to this
*Backup ability is passive, use of gained role requires empowerer
*Empowered players can be roleblocked
Sample Town Empowerer Role
You are a Town Empowerer
Each night you may target a player, and their ability will be activated for the night. You are unable to be protected by a doctor
Power Role
You are a Town Cop
Each night you may target a player and learn if they are mafia or not mafia. If you are not impowered, your action will fail.Last edited by LlamaFluff on Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Hoopla wrote:Massclaim D1 obviously breaks that setup, Llama.
Yes I realized after I got into the shower that I posted V1.0 instead of 1.1 which made 0-1 (RNG) for town roles.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Hoopla wrote:Might be best to add another townie to compensate for a possible D2 mylo if the vig or Hider register an extra town kill at night (after a D1 mislynch).
Extra VT may be right here, I just always dont like going over 13 players in any setup unless there are one or two very specific things I am trying to accomplish in a setup.
I just like playing around with the idea of empowerer themed open since I got to thinking of them recently due to some game I skimmed through. Another one of the setups I like where town really gets to choose what type of path they want to go down instead of just following roles and then giving scum basically the same thing.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Hoopla wrote:LlamaFluff wrote:Hoopla wrote:Might be best to add another townie to compensate for a possible D2 mylo if the vig or Hider register an extra town kill at night (after a D1 mislynch).
Extra VT may be right here, I just always dont like going over 13 players in any setup unless there are one or two very specific things I am trying to accomplish in a setup.
Your setup is currently 11 players - I was suggesting a 12th.
I thought it was at 13... yeah I can throw a guarenteed 2 VT in that can RNG up to 8.
I really need to stop trying to make tacks on to setups and stuff right before I go to bed or get up.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Tracker 11P
1 or 2 Town Tracker
7 or 8 Vanilla Town
2 Mafia Goon
Based on the theory of getting went nowhere result is a significant town tell.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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EBG 11
1x Town Elite Bodyguard (kills attacker)
8x Town Townie
1x Mafia Goon
1x 1-Shot Mafia Role Cop
Simple is better-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Shadow Dancer wrote:LlamaFluff wrote:EBG 11
1x Town Elite Bodyguard (kills attacker)
8x Town Townie
1x Mafia Goon
1x 1-Shot Mafia Role Cop
Simple is better
I agree, simple is better
The upside of this setup is definitely that it allows town to keep pro-town players alive... But I think the role cop is too strong. With a kill and a rolecop scum can scan a town of only 9 inital players incredibly fast and hitting the guard with the kill is a rather lucky conincidence (unless the guard could self-target in which case you could just make him a bomb anyway). It's definitely more in town's favour than ) 9:2 mountaineous which is about 65%:35%, but I think a bodyguard alone doesn't make it for town.
I would make the role cop a role blocker.
Roleblocker I dont like in this setup at all since it can take out the bodyguard from the equation (and why make a role to counteract the setups main point?).
My thought is that we have (likely) 8 town roles alive at night, so im going to guess about a 25% chance of the EBG going off (few should be obv not kill or protect). With the role cop, it allows scum to scout out a little bit, since the EBG actually working swings the game strongly in the direction of town. That and EBG is a role that will prevent a lynch or cause a 1:1 trade to occur. If 25% of the time it kills scum, I think allowing the scum to know a little bit more about who might have to role is better. You also have to think the chance of FINDING the EBG is 25% the first night (killed or RCed), after that it decreases to odds of NK. Most of the time it will give scum someone who isnt the RC, meaning chances are (1-town)/town starting the second night of hitting town or about 80%. Think I like leaving him one shot.
Also obviously EBG isnt allowed to self-protect.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Random thought...
Friends and Acquaintances and Enemies
3x Masons
3x Neighbors (Masons or Mafia can be neighbors) - Have Daytalk
3x Vanilla Mafia
4-7x VT (bring to 13 players)
Just a new way to look at what already is a decent setup (FaE/FaEaE) by adding a new element to it.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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In post 4936, animorpherv1 wrote:I know this will seem really insignificantly small, but if all 3 masons end up drawing neighbours (as unlikely as it is), then it's a waste of neighbours. A way to prevent that would be nice.
Statistically insignificant (0.3%) outcome shouldnt weigh on it since it would come up all masons/mafia about one of every 280 runs.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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In post 4941, Faraday wrote:In post 4935, LlamaFluff wrote:Random thought...
Friends and Acquaintances and Enemies
3x Masons
3x Neighbors (Masons or Mafia can be neighbors) - Have Daytalk
3x Vanilla Mafia
4-7x VT (bring to 13 players)
Just a new way to look at what already is a decent setup (FaE/FaEaE) by adding a new element to it.
Town sided with 13 players depending on how the neighbours are utilised I guess? Depends on how pro town you figure the neighbourhood is, since I think F+E with 13 players is slightly town sided on the forum.
Thats kinda why I like it, its going to add some EV to whatever side is able to use the neighbor ability better (if scum have it) and the fact that its daytalk really pushes for the utilization of it if you can trust the other players in it enough. If scum gets in there and plays it well, it could be very useful for them to have around. If mason gets in there and plays it right, it will be great for getting them better established.
Basically just giving a little tweak to something that we know already works, and I like neighbors due to the current site interest in that role, making a group in an open setup can be interesting. Daytalk vs Nighttalk is very negotiable, but I like removing a time period that both masons and neighbors can be chatting at once. Chance of all masons/mafia is so low that it doesnt matter, even getting two in there is about a 4% chance.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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In post 4946, animorpherv1 wrote:Once again, Junpei everybody. Clap if you give a fuck what he says.
*clap*
He does raise a valid point, trying to shut down something because open players "arent as good" said the way you did (especially coming from you) is laughable. First its something that will almost never occur, it would be about the same odds as CCCCCTT coming up in C9++, just because its rare doesnt mean it needs fixing. Saying "cant be all three" would make it worse since there is a noticeable (should take ~20 runs) chance of two mafia being in it, and if they both died last neighbor gets confirmed.
The entire setup basically takes a balanced enough setup and then adds an aspect that will reward good play around a modification regadless of faction. Good play from town or scum can be hefty +EV to that faction.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Closed and Open games differ a whole lot in how you approach them. Given that its an open the whole thing is based off of trust, which means if its all town they still have to end up trusting eachother and if its scum, gaining the trust of town can get them pretty far, especially if they have a voice in the back of towns mind they are able to continually push on.
Neighbors are hard to really pin down the EV of since its one of those things that depending on who gets the role, it has a whole lot more potential to be swingy or not. It requires being played correctly to actually be of a big advantage unless they want to take the risk of blindly trusting eachother. Either way neighbors in an open game is at least semi rare, so it would be interesting to see how they are adapted to that type of a situation and may tell us more about how the role functions.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Bumping this idea a bit more
In post 4935, LlamaFluff wrote:Friends and Acquaintances and Enemies
3x Masons
3x Neighbors (Masons or Mafia can be neighbors) - Have Daytalk
3x Vanilla Mafia
4-7x VT (bring to 13 players)
Since its going to be a good way to learn about the EV of neighbors as well. I do sorta like the "daytalk (only?)" twist for neighbors since it really puts them on their own, removed from the rest of the scum group. Thats something im more willing to talk about, and I guess keeping it standard night would do the most for figuring out the actual strength of a neighbor.
Also since its been joked around a little in the other open thread
Nightless Vengeful Bedlam
1-3x Vengeful Townie
4-6x Vanilla Townie
3x Mafia Goon (or 2x goon 1x encrypt to balance daytalk strength?)-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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With the amount of wierdness in opens recently... maybe making Elmo's old Popcorn Mafia an open might be something to look at. For those who havent been around long enough to remember it was
8x Vanilla
4x Goon
Nightless, No Lynching
Pregame scum votes to give townie a gun. They have X time to shoot. If shooter hits scum they shoot again. If shooter hits townie, the townie becomes new shooter. Timeout results in suicide and scum vote on new gunholder.
Basically classic nightless with a twist, but with site meta so different from original run im not sure how most would deal with just sitting around.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Yeah thats why I dont post running out the door...
Town A shoots Town B results in Town A dying and Town B becoming shooter
Town A shoots Scum B results in Scum B dying and Town A remaining shooter
Otherwise yes, obviously broken. Think in its first itteration town won D6/D7 or so, ive debated running it again in the somewhat near future. Meta shift over last two years may benifit scum though
Original game.
Its basically 8:4 nightless with a twist-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Well obviously the "equal or outnumber" standard win condition for scum applies to stop it from being impossible for scum to win. Its probaby town sided to the point where I wouldnt aruge against it being a 7:4 setup, but I think 8:4 nightless works fine, which is similar to this except with a constant confirmed town kingmaker.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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In post 5099, Hoopla wrote:In post 5098, Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:(8:4 nightless is considered to be balanced by the bye.)
I don't agree.
Its one of the "balanced" but notbalancedsetups.
The popcorn aspect raises a few problems where you have to be more sure who to shoot. If you are wrong on complete VI, they now have a vig shot. Do you do something different if your scum read has your town reads as their suspects?
I think its a slight town sided game, but not by enough to not give it a trial run or two.-
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In post 5165, IceGuy wrote:Five-player no-death
3 Vanilla Townies
2 Mafia Goons
Nightless
When a player is lynched, they flip and can't be lynched again, but can still talk and vote. A faction wins if all members of the other faction have been lynched.
I think you would need lynched scum to be removed from the game for balance to actually work or once they get lynched it essentially messes with lynch threshhold since stumped scum can just quicklynch any town who hits L-1. Then again this is probably town sided to start at 60% win chance. Just if its a 1v1 endgame it essentially is one bad vote from any of two players loses and thats a tough pill to swallow.
It just suffers from the 'hard to have balanced small game' syndrome.
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That said... maybe a different smaller setup like
1x Doctor or Cop
1x Nurse or Deputy
5x Vanilla Town
vs
1x Gunsmith (positive on Cop/Deputy) or Pharmicist (positive on Doc/Nurse)
1x Goon
Just a rip on old F9-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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In post 5177, Siveure DtTrikyp wrote:That said... maybe a different smaller setup like
1x Doctor or Cop
1x Nurse or Deputy
5x Vanilla Town
vs
1x Gunsmith (positive on Cop/Deputy) or Pharmicist (positive on Doc/Nurse)
1x Goon
Just a rip on old F9
1x Mafia Gunsmith
1x Mafia Pharmacist
Can't kill and investigate in one night?
Not sure, I lean yes because if goon is lynched day one its going to be near impossible to otherwise win. Even then its going to be rough given dual confirmed roles.
Guy_Named_Riggs wrote:What's a mafia pharmacist do? I've never seen that role before
Invented role. Basically a gunsmith for doctors. This would get something like "has medical equipment/does not have medical equiment" depending on if they hit a doc/nurse or not.
with 7:2 setup and two semi-confirmed scum is going to have an uphill climb but its a 50% chance backup role is useless and they in 75% of cases will be able to find at least one role.
Worst case scum scenario would be something like cop/deputy vs pharmacist which having the investigator roll opposite of both town roles is a 25% chance (12.5% each way), which is same as hitting both.-
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In post 5200, Demon Core wrote:@Cheery Dog: Oh, yeah, you're right
2 Mafiosi
2 Bulletproof Hunters
5 Townies
Notes:
Hunters have one shot daykill, but do NOT have a vote. Daykill does NOT end the day.
In order to win, hunters need to hit scum with their daykill.
Hunters lose if they hit town with their daykill.
Hunters exit the game upon using their shot.
I dont like due to luck involved. It has the same flaw as AitP has in that someone can essentially claim scum D1 and win due to luck of a pick. I mean, I could technically go "Shoot X" first post as a hunter and I have a 22% win chance. Its not *high* but its possible.
I would say include hunters being able to win if they are alive when town achieves their win condition. Otherwise its just unfair to them.
The C-14 modification one isnt that bad either. Its just C-14 that gives a little more edge to the scum (maybe).-
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In post 5322, BBmolla wrote:But Soft What Light Through Yonder Window Breaks
1 Mafia
1 Traitor
5 VTs
-If a VT is lyched, then during the night phase they select a player. If the mafia does not kill during the night, targetted player will die.
-During the night, the Traitor targets who they believe the Mafia is.
-During the night, the Mafia can either kill someone or target whoever they think their partner is.
-If the Mafia and the Traitor both target each other and they both survive the night, they win the game.
-If Mafia dies, the game continues but is nightless.
Traitor claims D1, or even gets lynched D1, and its over 50% scum win rate. It may have some sort of potential (traitor knows mafia, mafia can kill or attempt to recruit) but scum argueably should make it not mafia immediately since they win more often then not doing such.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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So friends and enemies varients (one talked about already)
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Friends and Enemies and Acquantiences
3x Goons
3x Masons
7x Vanilla
Three randomly chosen to be in Neighborhood as well (Vanilla/Mafia/Mason Neighbor flip).
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Enemies and Enemies
1x Mafia A 1 shot Vig
1x Mafia A Goon
1x Mafia B 1 shot Vig
1x Mafia B Goon
7x Vanilla
Mafia factional kill only can kill rival mafia
Instant action resolve night (daytalk enabled)
Vig kill can hit town or mafia (exists to stop scum about to lose from clearing enough for forced win)-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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By itself this is a 73% scum EV (7!-3!)/(9!-5!) = .277 town win chance.
However, town has a 1-shot factional ability it can activate by a vote. If the majority of townies vote for it as a revival has been achieved, the revival is "free": if it's on town, everything proceeds as usual, but if it's on scum, scum doesn't win.
So if they hit town it counts to the win condition or no?
Still probably scum sided as a whole, but if that revive still counts as a town revived its about a 65% scum win chance randomly. If it hits SCUM then its down to about 62% town win.
Think it swings too much and scum wincondition is too easy to achieve.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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If you required three revived town for the win, and made the 'voted revive' something that did not count to any wincon (alignment reveal only) it may work better but its still almost 60% scum win rate. Since scum have a 22% and increasing daily chance of winning.
The "revive" if it doesnt count can be used to just confirm someone who is a strong player but mistrusted or something to that extent.
If you only needed three good revives and there was the voted one that was 'safe' now its close to a coinflip, but im not sure a game that essentially is two lynches long is a good thing since just using the voted lynch on the strongest player D1 is going to be best as they are town where you are looking at a 53% town win chance or they are scum where it jumps to a 75% win chance.
Really if this was to work it probably needs to be expanded to three scum where two need to be revived.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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In post 5128, Kdub wrote:In post 5124, callforjudgement wrote:Daytalk + no NKs on scum + choose secretary at start would me my preference for that setup, and I'd personally think it's reasonably balanced 10:3 and scumsided 8:3. I might be wrong, though; it's often hard to know about balance until a setup is run, especially when it introduces a new mechanic.
So you don't like the core swap idea? We could try it with or without it and see how things work out.
10 VTs still seems balanced I think? What are the win rates like for white flag? I'd guess that this would be fairly similar.
I just saw this in the queue.
I dont think its balanced. Town doesnt get any help against clean sweep (20% of games) to start. Even othewise its doesnt help much, there is a 51% chance of them being alive at a point two scum would win still, although it drops to 34% at only them. Given that its 100% at all scum win... im just not sure this is balanced and I would not want to ever be town in this setup, wouldnt want to be scum either but I would be really upset being town, lesser of two evils.
Getting something like 62% chance scum wins this playing around.
21% @ no losses
27% @ one loss
14% @ two losses-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Im going to start requesting new mid sized open setups (11-15 players) as the start of the micro-queue has pulled away some of the popular setups.
If you have any good ideas lets here them-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Im going to bring Popcorn Mafia back up again with only 11 players (7 town, 4 scum) because thats the only recent one that fits the size im looking for. It also has been ran once in the past as an 8:4 setup with a town win, so dropping the player could help quite a bit on the balance there.
In post 5430, Rainbowdash wrote:7x Vanilla
4x Goon
Nightless, Daykill Mechanic
Goon Role (x4)
You are a Mafia Goon with XXX, YYY and ZZZ
Before the game starts, you must elect one townie to receive the gun.
You may talk with your partners <HERE> at any time.
You win when mafia make up at least half of the living players
Vanilla Townie (x7)
You are a Vanilla Townie
All you have is your voice for now
You win when all threats to the town have been killed
When town gets the gun:
You have the gun.
You MUST shoot another player by <Deadline>
If you shoot mafia, they will die and you will retain the gun. If you attempt to shoot a town aligned player, you will die and the gun will transfer to their possession
Basically modified kingmaker nightless
Mafia chooses first king, if king executes mafia they remain king, if they try to execute town they die and thier target takes over as king. If they time out the king dies and mafia elects the new king again.
Also going to throw out the following:
Double Tap
11x Town Two Shot Vig
2x Mafia Two Shot Vig
All players are One-Shot Bulletproof
Mafia have daytalk
Mafia have a NK, cannot use vig and NK on same night-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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In post 5524, IceGuy wrote:Pick Your Poison
3 Mafia Goons
1 Cop
1 Doc
1 JK
7 VTs
Every day, mafia chooses whether the cop or both doc and JK will be active the next night. An inactive cop will get a random result, an inactive doc's/JK's action fails silently.
1) "Random" result is pretty bastard.
2) What happens if a PR dies? No more making roles inactive?
Pick Your Copoison
3 Mafia Goons
2 Cops
8 VTs
Every day, mafia chooses whether Cop A or Cop B will be active. An inactive cop will get a random result.
Same questions
1) Why the bastard result?
2) Does scum know who the cops are?
3) What if a cop dies?
Join Or Die
2 Mafia A Godfathers
2 Mafia B Godfathers
1 JK
1 Cop
7 VTs
If both mafia groups send in a "join request", they'll be joined and treated as one group (common wincon, common QT). However, they lose their nightkill and become Goons (i.e. can be found by the Cop).
This game suffers from scum joining up being massively unbalanced. Its against your win condition to not join as scum.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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In post 5534, Leafsnail wrote:For Join or Die you better disallow no-lynching, otherwise joining is a death sentence with the cop still alive.
Yeah thats correct, I did miss what Emp said but basically scum taking a passive alliance of both "hunt the cop" until the cop is dead followed by allying is all they need to do for a quick win.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Okay with the "we need more mid-large open setups" call basically being ignored...
I put Popcorn Mafia in the queue because it was discussed recently.
I would like to hear some additional discussion on Double Tap from a couple pages ago. Again like Popcorn I see this as just doing well as a fun setup in the current site meta.
Additionally im going to pull this one up
Town (10)
1x Cop or Doctor
1x Deputy or Nurse
8x Vanilla
Mafia (2)
1x Gunsmith (positive on Cop and Deputy) or Pharmacist (positive on Doctor or Nurse)
1x Goon-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Thats actually pretty different... also its too small of a game since im trying to increase the amount that are more than nine player (open queue instead of micro queue).
Also what CFJ said for Emp's setup. Town lynching SK early is basically turning the game into mountainous +1 scum. SK who is caught just claims SK and trys to force a 1:1:1 (and stops killing if there is one scum left).-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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In post 5548, N wrote:You can add more people.
Vengeful scum starts falling apart pretty quickly.
I could see something along the lines of a variable
1-3 Vengeful Townie
7-9 Vanilla Townie
3x Goon
Working though. Venge-town enmasse would probably just result in a lot of anti-town play so the venge shot can be used. Overstocking with certain roles has already been tried a few times (Texas Justice) and tends to not work too well without some way to limit things.
Its the theory behind the Double Tap from last page. It basically takes the broken Texas Justice and retools it a bit to limit the "chain shoot" breaking call as that results in dead town and no one knowing who scum is in Double Tap.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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I actually can see that expanding into a C14 offshoot
Something like
Two sets of (Fire Goon/Water Goon/Air Goon) + Two of (Fire Cop/Water Cop/Air Cop) + VTs-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Well the "worst case" 5:2:2:2 can be a force loss for town without a mislynch so thats probably bad to start.
D1 - Scum A lynch
N1 - Three town death (2:1:2:2)
D2 - Scum B lynch
D3 - Scum C lynch
D4 - Scum A lynch
N4 - Scum win
Even with D1/D2 being both scum A, D3/D4 scum B its still a scum win with three town dying N1.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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In post 5566, JacobSavage wrote:That's partly why I was thinking of making the scum being able to reduce their thresholds as well. But I can see your point
Maybe you can upgrade the old broken Fight or Flight to something where all players have unlimited commute/vig shots.
Like CFJ said, things like "who can reach a computer first" shouldnt factor into who wins a game. Reducing the lynch threshold does that.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Playing around with this
Alternating Mountainous
2x Mafia Goon (can only kill even nights)
2x Wearwolf (can only kill odd nights)
1x Odd Night Cop
1x Even Night Seer
7x Vanilla Town
Only nervousness is mafia should get something small to counter cop getting a shot off before they can even kill. Daytalk is too strong, limiting day talk to day one may work but is very unusual sounding.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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In post 5601, borkjerfkin wrote:give mafia a 1 shot roleblock or something?
It does shift things to skill based and that may just be the simplest option.
N wrote:What if you randomised whether they're odd or even?
Point is to have the delay between cop/mafia. If cop claims day after they get a result, the immediately get NKed. If they hold onto it,then they get a couple more while dodging their scum even having a kill ability.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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In post 5613, callforjudgement wrote:What about giving the Mafia some sort of minor crosskill protection, to make up for town's enhanced ability to pick on them? (Something like a Mafia Doctor who can self-target, but can't both protect and kill.)
Thats another point of the setup. If scum A loses a member, its bad for scum B to try and finish off the faction immediately as it leaves them in a very bad position. The two scum factions have to play nice with eachother to an extent to prevent the game from turning into a very tough win.
guille2015 wrote:In post 5603, LlamaFluff wrote:Point is to have the delay between cop/mafia. If cop claims day after they get a result, the immediately get NKed. If they hold onto it,then they get a couple more while dodging their scum even having a kill ability.
Strategy scenario, Cop get's a positive result day 1, then holds off on day 2. Reveal Day 3. Likely safe from the Werewolves kill as he is free to check another player.
Thats the point sorta. You get a guilty and do you risk holding it for another night or not.
Maybe seer head start is best way to start making this move towards balanced. Even if they hit wolf N0 a D1 claim gets them NKed right off the bat.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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I keep coming back to "Night One Cop Blocker" as the better choice as it takes an element of randomness (N0 investigation) and at least transfers it to more applies (wolves have one night to seer hunt, seer has a day to form opinions). Otherwise you could end up with a D1 post one guilty followed by a quick D1 lynch N1 kill and two players are gone without the game hardly haven happened.
The N1 blocker at least makes it so scum/seer relies on read instead of luck.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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They are but I think the difference is dropped a bit though as you can run something around....
1/13 cop claims
1/10 cop blocked (at random)
1/10 cop NKed (at random)
So thats 25% or so cop gets blocked/killed really. Which while still probably slightly at a disadvantage isnt end of the world and may be runnable.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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In post 5626, quadz08 wrote:Is there a reason you can't have seer and cop be Odd-Night, and both Mafia and Werewolves have Even-Night kills?
Mostly it was for removal of two kills on the same player and kill interferance with the investigations.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Not sure how AAs setup would ever work since if im reading it right anyone converted will be converted right back the next night.
Also the whole "no VT win condition" part.
Cults are very bad in most situations though, when there is constant conversion threat im not sure how anyone would ever want to play this game as there is no "good VT" play. VT is going to more or less have to act like survivors unless a faction is clearly winning and even then can be luck screwed over easily. I think most cult would need to be in a "pregame draft" type scenario and even then its tricky, maybe something like
Choosing Friends and Enemies
1x Mason Recruiter
1x Mafia Recruter
11x Vanilla
Mason Recruiter picks two players that WONT be masons (two masons are chosen from remaining pool randomly)
Godfather picks two players that WONT be mafia pregame (two goons are chosen from remaining pool randomly)
Going beyond that cult is something that can be very unfair to the recruits.-
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In post 5648, Docteur Gudsight wrote:I'm considering running this one soon (either in the Open or the Theme queue depending on the mood of the higher-ups). I welcome some opinions:
"Forced cooperation"
2 Mafia A Goons
2 Mafia B Goons
7 Vanilla Townie
2 Power Roles (to be determined - i'm considering a pair of masons right now)
Unusual mecanisms:
Shared Nightkill:The two mafias share the night kill and a quicktopic. In order to perform the nightkill, both factions need to agree on it. They can post anonymously in the quicktopic (and are advised to do so )
No Kingmaking:If at any point of the game, the number of scum equals the number of townies, game goes in night-only mode. Both scum factions gain a kill (the shared night-kill disappears) and all town powerroles are disabled. First faction to destroy the opposing one wins. In case both factions are destroyed simultaneously, game is a draw between the two scum factions and a loss for town.
Im not sure how opening communication between the two would work.
I could see something with no communication but something like:
"Each member of each mafia has a NK, a kill only occurs if a player is targeted for a kill by mafia A and B in the same night". Some voyeur offshoot or something role could be added to that as a PR if thats what you want that sees what factions targeted a player at night. Any opening communication is just going to just cause the focalpoint of the game to be trying to read who the other side is by posts.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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In post 5655, Docteur Gudsight wrote:That's actually the aim of the setup: add a mini-game where scum try to perform their NKkill without leaking too much information to the opposing team.
There was a really old game where there were some known Scum-Town QTs. They never got used. I image this would be similar since scum wouldnt want to risk giving something away. Really just looking at posting patterns let alone wording/etc you could probably pick out who is talking if you know the "possibilities" or whatever.
Making it so factions have to more or less bet on who the others are targeting makes it cleaner.
You also can do something if you really want to play games with mafia
"Each faction has 50 points to spread out each night over as many players as they want, whoever has the most points combined dies. No more than 30 can be given to a single player any given night". Something like that scum can possibly use stats to read who the other scum are due to who dies comparing to their own points given.
Actually....
Buy A Bullet Mafia
2x Mafia A Goon
2x Mafia B Goon
1x Town Vig
1x Town Backup Vig
8x Vanilla Town
-Each Mafia faction has 50 points to spend a night on who gets killed. No faction may put more than 30 points to any individual
-Town Vig has 30 points to spend a night on who gets killed. All points may be spent on the same individual.
-In the event of one or more player being tied for most points to kill, ties are broken in following manner
1) Most points spent by any individual faction/vig
2) Most groups awarding points to player
3) Most points received over entire game up to that point
4) Random draw-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Any game that can end on the first night is essentially out to start.
Anyway, I think Duck Duck Goose needs another townie. With extra townie it actually brings a scum dying due to PGO action to an extra lynch for town. As of now it has same numbers (ie lylo with one scum is at 4P instead of 3P) while with the addition of a townie it would have it at 4P lylo with no success and 3P lylo with town success.
Thoughts on doing one extra town?-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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Massclaim D1 almost breaks it.-
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LlamaFluff Jack of All Trades
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In post 5674, LlamaFluff wrote:Anyway, I think Duck Duck Goose needs another townie. With extra townie it actually brings a scum dying due to PGO action to an extra lynch for town. As of now it has same numbers (ie lylo with one scum is at 4P instead of 3P) while with the addition of a townie it would have it at 4P lylo with no success and 3P lylo with town success.
Thoughts on doing one extra town?
Bumping this as it has been a popular setup in the past but the way it currently is there I think its going to be heavily scum sided.
In a situation where scum never get killed at night, its a crushing 8:3 game where town has little if any hope of winning.
In a situation where one scum dies at night (say after a D1 mislynch) its a 6:2 start for the second day, which is still very scum sided as they only need two mislynches.
Essentially the PGO aspect of the game only gives town an extra mislynch is if TWO scum die at night. Even if you assume something like "Scum has a 1/3 chance of dying each night" you are looking at:
30% Scum never die at night
45% One scum dies
So 75% of the time town has only three mislynches to live on. 25% they have four.
If you want to say 50% dying first two nights:
25% Scum never dies
50% one scum dies
So thats the same odds actually just spread differently.
With the addition of the EXTRA vanilla townie though, with one scum death at night the odds are boosted.
Currently there are three mislynches with 0 or 1 death
There four mislynches with two dying
Revised its three mislynches with 0 deaths
Town gets an extra mislynch with any number of deaths
Scum is only punished with some extra revealed information when they kill a player acting. Its not a massive hinerance or something for them to actually be afraid of. When you add the extra player, they have more of a reason to actually play the WIFOM game since a bad call gives information and gives an extra mislynch.