"Fuck you. I opened up my heart to you and you stabbed it a thousand times." - Gamma, to me, right before confessing to being the town vig and murdering my scum partner N1.
1 diviner (knows cult recruiter and all cult members as soon as they are culted. Counts toward cult:town ratio as cult.
Wins in place of cult if not culted/lynchedbefore cult win
)
1 cleric (if targeting the same person as cult recruiter, target dies as town. Cannot be culted.)
1 martyr (can kill himself day or night to reveal the role of another player)
7 town vanilla
Cult not only have to shield their leader, but in a twist of gameplay, they actually have to scumhunt the oposition, the deviner
Game related pms allowed regardless of current alignment. Said pms may be referenced in game (eg. Unclaimed cleric gets a pm from cult attempting to co-opt him --- cleric cannot be culted and outs the pm) .
if cult recruiter is lynched: cult may no longer recruit, but remain alive to try to win by lynching. in night actions martyrs self kill comes first, so if he is culted. On the same night he dies as town
I wanna play this... Only time its been played i was the game mod ;-;
In post 5829, Ineffective wrote:So you have a compulsive nk and an optional nk and im assuming you are allowing a joint win for last 2.
X amount should be 9 or 10 imo. Assuming mislynches are blown sequentially 9 would give 2 ml and town can earn more by lynching a scum d1 or 2
With 10 vts same deal except town and scum can play with the lynch tempo
SK kills mafia N1. Best move, so mafia is forced to basically play lyncher to SK D1. Only way to counter this is a mass "If I am mafia X is SK" massclaim D1, that fails long run too.
Also if SK or mafia are going to get lynched whats to stop them from just giving up the other player?
1 diviner (knows cult recruiter and all cult members as soon as they are culted. Counts toward cult:town ratio as cult.
Wins in place of cult if not culted/lynchedbefore cult win
)
1 cleric (if targeting the same person as cult recruiter, target dies as town. Cannot be culted.)
1 martyr (can kill himself day or night to reveal the role of another player)
7 town vanilla
Cult not only have to shield their leader, but in a twist of gameplay, they actually have to scumhunt the oposition, the deviner
Game related pms allowed regardless of current alignment. Said pms may be referenced in game (eg. Unclaimed cleric gets a pm from cult attempting to co-opt him --- cleric cannot be culted and outs the pm) .
if cult recruiter is lynched: cult may no longer recruit, but remain alive to try to win by lynching. in night actions martyrs self kill comes first, so if he is culted. On the same night he dies as town
I wanna play this... Only time its been played i was the game mod ;-;
So im not sure how this works well when almost 25% of the time town wins D1 without even scumhunting. Problem is town is going to be hard pressed to win any other situation as if cult leader makes it more to D3 town essentially cant win, even if they hit recruiter there its more or less a 3v6 nightless.
It may be a "fun" game but its not fundamentally sound or balanced at all.
In post 5829, Ineffective wrote:So you have a compulsive nk and an optional nk and im assuming you are allowing a joint win for last 2.
X amount should be 9 or 10 imo. Assuming mislynches are blown sequentially 9 would give 2 ml and town can earn more by lynching a scum d1 or 2
With 10 vts same deal except town and scum can play with the lynch tempo
SK kills mafia N1. Best move, so mafia is forced to basically play lyncher to SK D1. Only way to counter this is a mass "If I am mafia X is SK" massclaim D1, that fails long run too.
Also if SK or mafia are going to get lynched whats to stop them from just giving up the other player?
Not sure i understand why killing a jointable player would be optimal. I was assuming a joint being accessable with my analysis... Otherwise you are correct - neighboring scum is counterproductive. as for the jointable "Team mates" not outting each other when being lynched.... Its called sportsmanship - if i was a mod and saw anyone outting another faction when they are in autoloss for the sake of doing it with no possible benifit to themselves i wouldnt allow them to join future games.
In post 5829, Ineffective wrote:So you have a compulsive nk and an optional nk and im assuming you are allowing a joint win for last 2.
X amount should be 9 or 10 imo. Assuming mislynches are blown sequentially 9 would give 2 ml and town can earn more by lynching a scum d1 or 2
With 10 vts same deal except town and scum can play with the lynch tempo
SK kills mafia N1. Best move, so mafia is forced to basically play lyncher to SK D1. Only way to counter this is a mass "If I am mafia X is SK" massclaim D1, that fails long run too.
Also if SK or mafia are going to get lynched whats to stop them from just giving up the other player?
Not sure i understand why killing a jointable player would be optimal. I was assuming a joint being accessable with my analysis... Otherwise you are correct - neighboring scum is counterproductive. as for the jointable "Team mates" not outting each other when being lynched.... Its called sportsmanship - if i was a mod and saw anyone outting another faction when they are in autoloss for the sake of doing it with no possible benifit to themselves i wouldnt allow them to join future games.
Its basically this:
Mafia cannot win (and will lose) if the SK doesn't get lynched D1. To stop this from happening, there needs to be a "if I am scum X is partner" claim to stop the SK from killing mafia upon them being lynched next.
If you are going to say 10 town... you can probably assume no more than 8 players get claimed as a partner here, and mafia cant lie or they get NKed the first night. So you are going to have quite a few clear off the bat.
Also if your faction is in a force loss situation... why not help town as scum? You aren't going to be playing against your win condition at that point or anything. At times you are in a spot that you cant win but you do have sway over the way the rest of the game goes. That shouldn't ever come into play though because of chaining which to every faction (except SK) is optimal for D1.
1 diviner (knows cult recruiter and all cult members as soon as they are culted. Counts toward cult:town ratio as cult.
Wins in place of cult if not culted/lynchedbefore cult win
)
1 cleric (if targeting the same person as cult recruiter, target dies as town. Cannot be culted.)
1 martyr (can kill himself day or night to reveal the role of another player)
7 town vanilla
Cult not only have to shield their leader, but in a twist of gameplay, they actually have to scumhunt the oposition, the deviner
Game related pms allowed regardless of current alignment. Said pms may be referenced in game (eg. Unclaimed cleric gets a pm from cult attempting to co-opt him --- cleric cannot be culted and outs the pm) .
if cult recruiter is lynched: cult may no longer recruit, but remain alive to try to win by lynching. in night actions martyrs self kill comes first, so if he is culted. On the same night he dies as town
I wanna play this... Only time its been played i was the game mod ;-;
So im not sure how this works well when almost 25% of the time town wins D1 without even scumhunting. Problem is town is going to be hard pressed to win any other situation as if cult leader makes it more to D3 town essentially cant win, even if they hit recruiter there its more or less a 3v6 nightless.
It may be a "fun" game but its not fundamentally sound or balanced at all.
I would never use that strat and i doubt anyone with half a brain would either. Martyr is infinantly more valueble late game and cleric claiming prevents cult from the chance of a miscult/outting themselves to the wrong person. It also prevents any possibility of being a step ahead of the cult mentality to prevent cult conversions due to cult knowing the person who can "save" a towny and how he thinks, and the inverse not being the case. Your strat is a day one all in gambit and nothing more.. You are also not factoring in cults opposition, which will lead cult to not culting late game if they havnt culted or lynched it yet.
Last edited by Ineffective on Fri May 03, 2013 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In post 5829, Ineffective wrote:So you have a compulsive nk and an optional nk and im assuming you are allowing a joint win for last 2.
X amount should be 9 or 10 imo. Assuming mislynches are blown sequentially 9 would give 2 ml and town can earn more by lynching a scum d1 or 2
With 10 vts same deal except town and scum can play with the lynch tempo
SK kills mafia N1. Best move, so mafia is forced to basically play lyncher to SK D1. Only way to counter this is a mass "If I am mafia X is SK" massclaim D1, that fails long run too.
Also if SK or mafia are going to get lynched whats to stop them from just giving up the other player?
Not sure i understand why killing a jointable player would be optimal. I was assuming a joint being accessable with my analysis... Otherwise you are correct - neighboring scum is counterproductive. as for the jointable "Team mates" not outting each other when being lynched.... Its called sportsmanship - if i was a mod and saw anyone outting another faction when they are in autoloss for the sake of doing it with no possible benifit to themselves i wouldnt allow them to join future games.
Its basically this:
Mafia cannot win (and will lose) if the SK doesn't get lynched D1. To stop this from happening, there needs to be a "if I am scum X is partner" claim to stop the SK from killing mafia upon them being lynched next.
If you are going to say 10 town... you can probably assume no more than 8 players get claimed as a partner here, and mafia cant lie or they get NKed the first night. So you are going to have quite a few clear off the bat.
Also if your faction is in a force loss situation... why not help town as scum? You aren't going to be playing against your win condition at that point or anything. At times you are in a spot that you cant win but you do have sway over the way the rest of the game goes. That shouldn't ever come into play though because of chaining which to every faction (except SK) is optimal for D1.
Game is broken badly.
you just responded to my post with a reworded version of your origional post with no mention as to anything i said or response to it... If mafia can nk and killer can joint there will always be a way for mafia to win... If not i have already acknowledged your point
In post 5836, Ineffective wrote:I would never use that strat and i doubt anyone with half a brain would either. Martyr is infinantly more valueble late game and cleric claiming prevents cult from the chance of a miscult/outting themselves to the wrong person.
Martyr is like a day vig, yes they are more powerful late but they can be taken out before that point. If the martyr gets recruited its all over right there.
It also prevents any possibility of being a step ahead of the cult mentality to prevent cult conversions due to cult knowing the person who can "save" a towny and how he thinks, and the inverse not being the case.
If martyr uses his action the correct play is to always be on that player as cleric because it confirms them as town and makes them remain town.
Your strat is a day one all in gambit and nothing more.. You are also not factoring in cults opposition, which will lead cult to not culting late game if they havnt culted or lynched it yet.
That doesn't help the fact that lets say recruiter makes D3. You now essentially have lets say 10 alive where only 6 are town aligned. Even if scum stops recruiting its going to be tough for town to actually win the game given the absurd level of accuracy they will need, even taking the semi-scum player into account. The longer it takes for the CL to die, the harder the game will be for town to win. D2 is the absolute latest martyr should act and even then you are basically taking a "if they get recruited N1 scum win" gambit into effect.
You make some reasonable points... I rather disagree with the late game assesment tho. The one game that was played was won late game by town. Having a perma-clear and gaining a mislynch every time you lynch scum post-recruit helps town alot. also in said game, martyr had a feeling he would be culted and went his seperate way at night - he was right... Preventing a cult and revealing a vanilla--- who the cult assumed would be protected by cleric and did not target which resulted in another miscult as cleric was on the alternate target.. There are many levels of psychology and wifom to take into effect.
Majiffy is looking into balance - might could use more VT's
1x Mafia Roleblocker
1x Mafia 1-Shot Ninja
3x Compulsive Fruit Vendors (Fruit does nothing)
2x Ascetic Townies
1x Tracker
1x Watcher
If the watcher targets an ascetic townie, the watcher always receives "No Result."
If the tracker targets a player who proceeds to target an ascetic townie, the tracker always receives "No Result."
1x Mafia Roleblocker
1x Mafia 1-Shot Ninja
3x Compulsive Fruit Vendors (Fruit does nothing)
2x Ascetic Townies
1x Tracker
1x Watcher
If the watcher targets an ascetic townie, the watcher always receives "No Result."
If the tracker targets a player who proceeds to target an ascetic townie, the tracker always receives "No Result."
In post 5841, Leafsnail wrote:An unkillable confirmed townie just strikes me as something you really shouldn't have in a game. Making him convertible would solve the issue.
With no investigative roles and no mafia to counteract cult, i really dont see it as a problem... It was actually my solution to the first draft being too cultsided and not wanting to create a mechanic dependant setup. The only real issue is that towns sucess late game almost entirely depends on the martyr being competent
In post 5841, Leafsnail wrote:An unkillable confirmed townie just strikes me as something you really shouldn't have in a game. Making him convertible would solve the issue.
With no investigative roles and no mafia to counteract cult, i really dont see it as a problem... It was actually my solution to the first draft being too cultsided and not wanting to create a mechanic dependant setup. The only real issue is that towns sucess late game almost entirely depends on the martyr being competent
Its still cult-sided with your change, if town doesn't lynch CL by second day they will probably not win.
If you want to force game more to town try and limit the amount of power the CL has somehow. That can be done by either limiting their recruits for the entire game or something like that.
Also if the anti-cult-third party thing can get recruited they have another gamebreak at lylo. Basically lets say you are at CL+recurit+3rdParty+5 town alive.
Any town gets put at L-1 the 3P hammers with claim of 3P, they get recruited and win condition achieved. Which in your game makes that basically a D3 lylo. Where only way town can win is with four of five correct lynches in a row.
There is a reason (apart from most players here hating cults to start) that they are rare; they are amazingly difficult to balance - probably about on par with running a 3 scum faction game.
In post 5841, Leafsnail wrote:An unkillable confirmed townie just strikes me as something you really shouldn't have in a game. Making him convertible would solve the issue.
With no investigative roles and no mafia to counteract cult, i really dont see it as a problem... It was actually my solution to the first draft being too cultsided and not wanting to create a mechanic dependant setup. The only real issue is that towns sucess late game almost entirely depends on the martyr being competent
Its still cult-sided with your change, if town doesn't lynch CL by second day they will probably not win.
If you want to force game more to town try and limit the amount of power the CL has somehow. That can be done by either limiting their recruits for the entire game or something like that.
Also if the anti-cult-third party thing can get recruited they have another gamebreak at lylo. Basically lets say you are at CL+recurit+3rdParty+5 town alive.
Any town gets put at L-1 the 3P hammers with claim of 3P, they get recruited and win condition achieved. Which in your game makes that basically a D3 lylo. Where only way town can win is with four of five correct lynches in a row.
There is a reason (apart from most players here hating cults to start) that they are rare; they are amazingly difficult to balance - probably about on par with running a 3 scum faction game.
Ok so - what if culting the third party resulted in nothing? Then that blatent joint win isnt available, and if cult tries to recruit him they know who they NEED to lynch to win...
Well that assesment was slightly off - but mostly true
In that scenario cult would cult the deviner and it would still be 3v4 but town would have the mandate of lynching the leader to win at that point so its still a likely win
