[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Leads to some weird shenanigans with fakeclaims when the town leader's claim conflicts with the cop/vig's claim.

[N]

I was thinking that I'd like to be able to think up a wacky new concept like Rarefaction or Reverse Mafia, and then I thought: what about combining them?

Reverse Rarefaction

6 town, 3 mafia
Players are split into three groups (each having two town and a mafia). They can only vote inside their own group.
When town is revived, they become innocent child and need to help look for the other town in their trio.
If mafia is revived, all in that group must stop talking.
Town win if the number of unrevived town is less than that of mafia.
Mafia win if two mafia are revived.

It sounded a lot clearer in my head, but putting it out in words is complicated.

[Leafsnail]

For the town's wincon, do you mean less than or equal to? Otherwise you can have a situation where nobody's won if the town revives a mafia member in one group and all the townies in the other groups.

Also, re: Duck Duck Goose, which just had a game run:

Optimal strategy for this game has got to be for town to wait for MYLO to use their shots. Looking at everyone who shot pre-MYLO (and thinking on my modded game), town are bad at perceiving when they'll get NKd.

I think Lastsurvivor may be onto something here. Saving your shots so that you can definitely get an extra lynch probably outweighs the fairly small chance of catching a mafia member with your shot.

[Junpei]

Fools for Thought

7 Vt
1 MSci
1 town neighborizer
1 odd fool
1 even fool
1 mafia RB
1 mafia goon

neighborizer chooses during start of day and night who to have in QT for next day
neighborizer may choose to have a new QT made whenever a new person is recruited.
Mad scientist targets 2 living players and is told whether or not the alignment of those two is SAME or NOT SAME.
Mad scientist may not select a target he selected on previous night.
fool reaching its win con ends game


it has been mathematically determined that the odd day fool does not have a statistical advantage due to the odds to get lynched increasing in time.

[saulres]

What's a fool?

Also, can the MSci target himself? I wouldn't think so.

[Junpei]

What's a fool?

Also, can the MSci target himself? I wouldn't think so.

fool wants to be lynched

odd day fool on odd days, etc

MSci can not target himself.

[ferretlover]

fool=jester im assuming

[JasonWazza]

Yeah fool is the Epic Mafia equivalent of MS's Jester.

Also regardless of "statistical analysis" Odd fool does have an advantage, because we play in the real world, not in the random world.

What would the Mad Scientist get if he targets;
{Fool, Town}
{Fool, Scum}

[Mr. Flay]

Also {Fool, Fool} should yield Not The Same, since they want different people lynched.

[Junpei]

Yeah fool is the Epic Mafia equivalent of MS's Jester.

Also regardless of "statistical analysis" Odd fool does have an advantage, because we play in the real world, not in the random world.

What would the Mad Scientist get if he targets;
{Fool, Town}
{Fool, Scum}

Different Different and I know there is a benefit of going first however you have to be able to look past the first day and see how it is balanced. Not all games are balanced around simply day 1. The odd fool has a .08% advantage overall.

Flay, thinking about it you are right, but not for those reasons. I think it gives the fools a slight buff (doesn't change anything except for that now you dont get a SAME between fools and it hurting the other fool when one dies against wincon... a small buff ofc)

[LlamaFluff]

Also, re: Duck Duck Goose, which just had a game run:

Optimal strategy for this game has got to be for town to wait for MYLO to use their shots. Looking at everyone who shot pre-MYLO (and thinking on my modded game), town are bad at perceiving when they'll get NKd.

I think Lastsurvivor may be onto something here. Saving your shots so that you can definitely get an extra lynch probably outweighs the fairly small chance of catching a mafia member with your shot.

Town cant make that work because scum can just not kill that one night and you are in a crushing disadvantage game as town. Problem with DDG is that town basically NEEDS to have one kill hit an active PGO or they are going to lose. Recent tweaks actually gives the town a lynch if that happens making it somewhat balanced, but in a situation where it doesn't happen im not sure we are ever going to see town win outside of a massive scum blunder.

[Leafsnail]

Scum not killing that night still gives the town an extra lynch, and a definite extra lynch may be worth more than the very unlikely possibility of a scumkill.

[LlamaFluff]

Scum not killing that night still gives the town an extra lynch, and a definite extra lynch may be worth more than the very unlikely possibility of a scumkill.

Its not worth turning very bad into bad instead of the leaving very bad as is or possible turning it into a mediocre situation.

Odds put it at I think 60-70% scum should die from a NK at random assuming six total uses of PGO-ness. This also gives town an extra lynch to work with as it knocks it from even to odd number of players alive. All players using PGO (assuming scum actually don't kill and never die post then) does basically the same thing but keeps an extra scum alive. Bit of a risk-reward, but what essentially is a 8:3 all vanilla is hopelessly scum sided.

This is one of those unique setups im not actually sure town can win without taking scum down through PGO actions. Just look at 8:3 which isn't even the worst case game, that's about balanced in a NIGHTLESS game.

[LlamaFluff]

In the interest of trying to create more 11-15P open games though

In Good Hands

10x Town
3x Mafia

On top of the lynch, players may vote through

Give <Player> <Power>

a tracker, bulletproof or roleblocker ability for the night during the day phase. Like lynching it requires a majority and locks in the player to role. No player can have more than one power in a night. If a lynch occurs plurality decides roles that have not reached a majority.

After night two the RBer ability is no longer useable.
After night four the BP ability is no longer useable.

Mafia have one group ability override shot, which can transfer a power to a player of their choosing for the night.

Essentially its:
N1/2: RB, Track, BP
N3/4: Track, BP
N5+: Track

As its all vanilla apart from that, I think it comes close to a balance. It also presents a very interesting mind game once a RB/Track disappears.

[Faraday]

Kill the guy with the track everynight and it becomes 10:3 with one unkillable townie until Night 4 and a roleblocker until Night 2? Seems like scum should win that, really.

That's ignoring the override ability, even.

Am I missing something?

er I guess there's the WIFOM of wanting to keep the tracker alive in case one of them ever gets it. EH.

[LlamaFluff]

Maybe axe the override, but I think if used properly you can start sticking the town-VI reads with PRs, basically you are going to start creating scenarios where scum HAVE to kill off one of the PRs each night quickly so giving the town who you would like to see die those roles is probably a good thing.

Throwing powers at VIs/Scummy players is going to force scum to let two shots off or kill one of them.

Adding a doctor (or BG) unless it goes away very early swings it back the other way again quickly.

[JasonWazza]

The odd fool has a .08% advantage overall.

I think your missing my point slightly, if everyone random lynched, then the Odd and Even fool would be about the same, but games aren't based on randomness but on logic, hence the odd fool has a lot more of a strategic advantage because they get the first chance at directing a non random lynch at themselves.

[Junpei]

The odd fool has a .08% advantage overall.

I think your missing my point slightly, if everyone random lynched, then the Odd and Even fool would be about the same, but games aren't based on randomness but on logic, hence the odd fool has a lot more of a strategic advantage because they get the first chance at directing a non random lynch at themselves.

Well then if we are going to speak like that, then I would say that the even fool has a strategic advantage because it will have more time, and experience with the gamestate, to get lynched on day 2. In addition the even fool has less people to try to convince.

[LlamaFluff]

Also playing around with...

Forget Me Not

Town (10)

2x Amnesic Cop
1x Amnesic Cop or Deputy (random)
7x Vanilla

Mafia (3)

1x Messenger
1x Godfather or Roleblocker (Random)
1x Goon

Messenger is basically a fake Amnesic Cop
For those who don't know Amnesic Cop targets Player X and Y. The investigation result on X goes to Y

[ferretlover]

I just wanted to make an open setup

1x Jailkeeper
1x Seer
1x Cop
1x Miller
4x Vanilla Townie

3x Werewolf

3x Mafia Goon

Thoughts?

[JacobSavage]

Miller can be confirmed by both Cop and Seer investigating him (both should be guility?)

And then its what 8 against 6....

[ferretlover]

8v3v3 >_>

[JasonWazza]

I just wanted to make an open setup

1x Jailkeeper
1x Seer
1x Cop
1x Miller
4x Vanilla Townie

3x Werewolf

3x Mafia Goon

Thoughts?

Too Anti-town sided.

8v3v3 is not a good setup because town can't Mislynch, and could STILL lose.

[JasonWazza]

Also playing around with...

Forget Me Not

Town (10)

2x Amnesic Cop
1x Amnesic Cop or Deputy (random)
7x Vanilla

Mafia (3)

1x Messenger
1x Godfather or Roleblocker (Random)
1x Goon

Messenger is basically a fake Amnesic Cop
For those who don't know Amnesic Cop targets Player X and Y. The investigation result on X goes to Y

Very swingy, looks kinda really fun.

does Y get told who X is?

[Faraday]

Miller can be confirmed by both Cop and Seer investigating him (both should be guility?)

And then its what 8 against 6....

(Or just by claiming...)