[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Okay, after the knee-jerk reaction of "first day here, proposing a setup, it probably sucks" that actually looks interesting.

With that many town I'd actually try to kill the goon first tbh.

[Goblin]

The judge can stop the nightkill, which makes it hard for mafia to reach a majority. They only have to achieve one mislynch on the town suspect to win.
The ideal play for town is to have the judge claim, examine the two suspects, and try their absolute best to make the right choice.
The ideal play for mafia is to find the judge and kill him before he claims. Since the judge claims most games, it comes down to hunting for the executioner or tricking him into making the wrong choice.
While the set-up is incredibly fun, it can be hard for mafia players who aren't comfortable outright lying to win, but at the same time, I kind of like that about the set-up.

It's a short and sweet game actually, with most games ending in a 2-4 days. I've seen mafia claim to be the judge and mafia claim to be the executioner, and get their kill confirmed on the town suspect. All sorts of crazy plans. The one thing I forgot to mention is that moderators absolutely cannot announce what power the person lynched had.

[Goblin]

what incentive does town have to lynch outside the suspects?

Some have tried to fix that problem by adding a mafia dayvig, so they can prevent the judge from announcing the two suspects.
Or maybe stop the executioner from killing in the night phase? I would definitely be open to playing a game where the goon is replaced by a mafia dayvig.
It would take away the quick pace of the game though.

Thoughts?

[Goblin]

and remember, town can't lynch the innocent subject without losing, but I'm definitely starting to like the idea of replacing the mafia goon with a mafia dayvig.

[Goblin]

As long as the suspects were immune to the mafia dayvig, because that would give mafia a 100% win rate.
Sorry, just really excited for someone to host this set up now.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

I'd have everyone claim a potential two suspects, then hunt for the mafia goon.

D1 lynch of either suspect doesn't end the game, yes? So there's no issues at all basically hunting through everyone.

And wait... does the judge know WHO is being nightkilled? If yes, thats brokenly overpowered and probably shouldn't be in the game. If not, why the hell is there a nightkill in the first place?

Edit: Why is there actually a night phase at all? Judge can, and probably should, stop everything from happening. I imagine players would be really pissed off if the executioner blew it for town by killing the innocent.

[Goblin]

1) Never seen anyone try that. I have seen people look for the goon first, and then look for people associated with the goon. When the goon is dead, the judge claims, and they have an extremely high chance of hitting the guilty suspect.
2) No, suspects take two lynches to kill. After that the executioner can consolidate the kill in the NP.
3) No, the judge just sees who is trying to apply actions. The goon would almost never night kill while the judge is still alive.

I'm actually starting to like the dayvig idea even more, because it fixes some of the concerns you guys brought up on the set-up

4 vanilla town
1 judge
1 executioner
1 innocent town suspect (mafia lynch target)

1 mafia dayvig (1x)
1 guilty mafia suspect (town lynch target)

Why is there actually a night phase at all? Judge can, and probably should, stop everything from happening. I imagine players would be really pissed off if the executioner blew it for town by killing the innocent

The executioner can only kill the person who has been convicted (lynched once). I went over that, but there aren't a lot of two tier games on this site. I know force field was a popular role in the heyday of mafia.
The judge's role of being able to approve night actions becomes essential when there are two convicted suspects.

[Goblin]

Open to any changes here. I would like someone to run something close to this model, because I enjoyed the one time I tried it.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

The one thing I forgot to mention is that moderators absolutely cannot announce what power the person lynched had.

Oh god a no reveal setup.

OH GOD.

And you give mafia a dayvig? What exactly does this solve? If you ignore the suspects the dayvig won't have a clue who to shoot. If judge claims immediately it doesnt really matter what the dayvig does, he won't change the outcome much.

[Goblin]

The 1-shot dayvig prevents the judge from claiming until the dayvig is dead or wasted his shot. If the judge does claim, then there's no doubt mafia would counter claim.
No reveal is essential (allignments are still revealed obviously), because if the goon dies, then the guilty suspect insta-loses by not having a backdoor.

There was one set up with a dayvig where mafia claimed judge foremost. The fundamental issue being raised about the set up is the judge. I'm wondering if the game is playable completely removing the role altogether.

5 vanilla town
1 town executioner
1 town innocent suspect

1 mafia goon
1 mafia guilty suspect

The moderator could probably replace one vanilla townie with a role cop.

4 vanilla town
1 town executioner
1 town rolecop
1 town innocent suspect

1 mafia goon
1 mafia guilty suspect

I'm just wondering if the mafia having to eliminate one target offsets the power of adding a role cop in a 7 vs 2 game.

[Goblin]

I'm starting to see where problems could arise. I've never seen them actually arise. Maybe we should just stick with the above and no judge.
I feel that will give no room for error and preserve the essence of the set-up.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Okay, I'm back in the knee-jerk reaction territory. A lot of things in the setup don't make sense.

Why is there a night-phase? The judge just poops on everything, and he really shouldn't die. I guess punishing town for lynching him makes sense so they don't get guarantees on who... nah, all the shenanigans where goon claims to be judge are silly.
In relation to the above, what exactly does the executioner do in this setup? His kill should never go through. I suppose he's a named townie, but, is a named townie a good thing to have?
How is town supposed to distinguish between suspects? This is basically the main reason I've suggested to look for the goon. The smart goon then would just give himself up. You can't solve this by making goon lynch to win because then both town prs claim and both suspects claim and you lynch out of everyone else before you lose on numbers.
Why do the suspects take two lynches to kill? Inherently the setup can end on d1 if town tries to go after the suspects immediately. Forcing the town to lynch the same person twice doesn't actually make sense from a fun perspective, and it just gives them an out if they try to ignore the suspects but accidentally lynch one instead.

Mafia having a dayvig doesn't do anything to solve most of the problems above, and just makes some stuff worse.

Pedit: Okay. These are quite different, and quite swingy, and probably fairly scumsided. Mafia only having to eliminate one target ABSOLUTELY offsets the power of a rolecop. Tbh, having 2 scum offsets the power of a rolecop.

I also don't understand why the guilty suspect insta-loses? This setup doesn't have a good reason, as far as I can see, for it to deviate from being full reveal.

[Bicephalous Bob]

The executioner can only kill suspects who were already lynched once, right? That's pretty cool.

[Bicephalous Bob]

5 vanilla town
1 town executioner
1 town innocent suspect
1 mafia goon
1 mafia guilty suspect

I think this works with reveals. It needs three new rules, though:

-The Mafia nightkill fails on a convicted suspect.
-When an unconvicted suspect gets nightkilled, he's publicly declared to be convicted.
-The Mafia can also convict the guilty suspect.

[Goblin]

I think this set-up works great. While I was thinking it over... I think the judge can work under one new rule.
The judge does not know the suspects, or has to approve the nightkill, but can actually night convict any player for the executioner to attempt to lynch in the following night.
For example, if the judge thought she knew who the goon or guilty suspect was, she could convict him in the night, and give the executioner the option of killing that player the next night.

Even without that addition, what you said above works great.

[Goblin]

Someone please run this. You'll be a legend.

[LlamaFluff]

Judge, Jury, and Executioner

Two stage mafia game

4 vanilla town

1 town judge
1 town executioner

1 town suspect

1 mafia goon
1 mafia suspect

Unique Roles

Judge - Approves all night actions and knows criminal identities (not affiliations)
Town Executioner - Town vigilante that can night kill convicted players
Suspect - A type of lynchee except one is innocent and the other is guilty

Two Stages

Suspects take two lynches to kill. The first lynch is known as the conviction, and the second lynch is a plain kill.
The first conviction serves solely to keep the game going upon a D1 correct lynch, and activates the town executioner power.
Lynching someone who isn't a suspect, for whatever reason, would only take one attempt.

Town Win-Con

Eliminate the guilty suspect

Mafia Win-Con

Make sure the innocent suspect is killed OR have more players than town

Generic Intro

The town is in uproar. [Insert Mod Here] was killed in a violent murder. The courts are vigorously trying to resolve justice. A jury of 4 townies are brought together to determine the fate of the two suspects, witnessed both at the scene of the crime by none other then the presiding judge. The forensics show that only one man was responsible for the murder, and may be connected with the mafia. The court must bring justice to the murder, by executing the man responsible. They must act quick. There's word that the mafia are planning to set their man free.

I think there are 5 scenarios this game can unfold under this set-up. 3 of them involve the judge claiming D1 and the last two do not.

Setup is just a coinflip. Suspect players both claim D1, game ends D1. Town really cant gain much more from anything else since multiple people already know who the two players are to start. As the Judge role knows both out the gate, the whole setup becomes just a "player A or B" out the gate. No town PR is ever getting killed or lynched so why not just simplify it and end the game D1 instead of just policy lynching the rest of the game first?

Anything else is just bad play for town.

[Bicephalous Bob]

I don't think anyone thinks otherwise at this point

But the setup evolved past that, see five posts back

[Goblin]

This is the evolved set-up....

Judge, Jury, and Executioner
---------------------------------------

4 vanilla town
1 town executioner
1 town judge
1 town innocent suspect

1 mafia goon
1 mafia guilty suspect

Additional Rules credited to Bicephalous Bob

-The Mafia nightkill fails on a convicted suspect.
-When an unconvicted suspect gets nightkilled, he's publicly declared to be convicted.
-The Mafia can also convict the guilty suspect.

With the new rules, reveals and night kills are appicable without breaking the game.

Judge no longer knows suspect identities

.

Unique Roles

Town Executioner - Can kill convicted suspects
Town Judge - Can automatically convict players in the night phase

Mafia Wincon - Lynch the innocent suspect OR have more players than town
Town Wincon - Lynch the guilty suspect

[Goblin]

First lynch is a conviction btw. Seems like an important thing to forget.

[Bicephalous Bob]

I'd still get rid off the judge, if only because three unique town roles in an open setup is too much.

[Goblin]

Personally I would keep the judge, but the set-up looks fun from my perspective with or without.

[LlamaFluff]

Wouldn't it still be best to just have town suspect claim out the gate? I still have no idea how this turns into anything but an immediate 1v1 Town suspects claims D1, scum cannot get rid of them without a lynch (cant kill convicted), they will not ever be lynched without a counter.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

TBH I'm not sure why Bicephalous Bob created the rule that the night kill fails on convicted suspects.
There isn't a reason for it (to my knowledge) and it can create a 1 vs 1 counter claiming scenario.
If the

goon

could kill convicted suspects, then it would be incredibly stupid to claim

innocent suspect

. There would just be two night kills on the claimed

innocent suspect

and

mafia

would win.
I think

llamafluff

brings up a legitimate point.

Mafia

night kills should either work on all convicted suspects, or work on the

innocent convicted suspect

.

Thoughts?

Why the hell did I add color? Because I could....

[Cheery Dog]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=22826

it was closed and larger, and I haven't actually read your setup idea, but that game happened.