[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

Hoopla · Post Post #6900 (ISO) » Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:58 am

In post 6899, hayatoBL wrote:A lot of rules. But I would like to see a game where players have to convince others that they are scum for a change. Is there perhaps one already?

This one is probably imbalance, though. Advantage to scum, I think.

am i being dumb or does a townie lynch d1 mean an autoloss for town? i feel like i'm missing the point of the setup.

hayatoBL · Post Post #6901 (ISO) » Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:08 am

^No, it doesn't.

Town-lynch day 1 results in: 1 Goon, 1 Traitor and 1 Townie left in D2. (Since obviously Goon is not going to kill Traitor N1)

But this rule prevents mafia from winning after a D1 town-lynch:

*Mafia wins, when

all

Townies are dead.

(NOT when they only control 50% of the votes)

What will happen is this:

On Day 1, everyone(including mafiaso) will try to convince each other, that they are town like usual.

But if town was lynched D1, on D2 everyone(including townies) will try to convince each other that they are mafia. Hence the theme:

I'm

Town

Mafia!!

BBmolla · Post Post #6902 (ISO) » Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:22 am

Lynch the traitor

Hoopla · Post Post #6903 (ISO) » Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:59 pm

oh, i see what's going on.

In post 6901, hayatoBL wrote:Town-lynch day 1 results in: 1 Goon, 1 Traitor and 1 Townie left in D2. (Since obviously Goon is not going to kill Traitor N1)

why not kill the traitor N1 though? Goon/townie/townie endgame is a 66/33 chance of winning for the goon, but a goon/traitor/townie endgame is a 50/50 chance for the goon, as he now has to convince the traitor he is scum and not the townie.

Cabd · Post Post #6904 (ISO) » Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:14 pm

From my understanding of the rules it looks like town might win a 1-1 endgame?

Bicephalous Bob · Post Post #6905 (ISO) » Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:35 pm

In post 6903, Hoopla wrote:oh, i see what's going on.

In post 6901, hayatoBL wrote:Town-lynch day 1 results in: 1 Goon, 1 Traitor and 1 Townie left in D2. (Since obviously Goon is not going to kill Traitor N1)
why not kill the traitor N1 though? Goon/townie/townie endgame is a 66/33 chance of winning for the goon, but a goon/traitor/townie endgame is a 50/50 chance for the goon, as he now has to convince the traitor he is scum and not the townie.

the traitor should just self-vote in lylo

Bicephalous Bob · Post Post #6906 (ISO) » Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:37 pm

by which I mean 3p lylo

Hoopla · Post Post #6907 (ISO) » Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:54 pm

In post 6905, Bicephalous Bob wrote:the traitor should just self-vote in lylo

my understanding of the rules is that a 1-1 endgame with a goon/townie would result in a tie, as neither team has achieved their win condition and can't improve upon the situation. so, the traitor doesn't really gain anything by self-voting in lylo. the point still stands that the goon is better placed to not take the traitor into lylo anyway.

chamber · Post Post #6908 (ISO) » Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:01 pm

In post 6907, Hoopla wrote:the point still stands that the goon is better placed to not take the traitor into lylo anyway.

Eeeeeh. You kind of have to assume people can lynch better than random to think mafia is a game at all, and that reduces the 66% number but increases the 50% number, I wouldn't be surprised if the actual numbers worked out pretty even.

Hoopla · Post Post #6909 (ISO) » Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:20 pm

that's not a bad point, but i don't think people are going to be much higher than random in a two day game. like, i agree the difference between the two endgames probably isn't as jarring as 66% and 50%, but i think you'd be silly not to take the goon/town/town endgame as scum.

although, i guess it could create some interesting wifom in lylo about what sort of player would kill/not kill the traitor.

chamber · Post Post #6910 (ISO) » Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:11 am

In post 6907, Hoopla wrote:
In post 6905, Bicephalous Bob wrote:the traitor should just self-vote in lylo
my understanding of the rules is that a 1-1 endgame with a goon/townie would result in a tie, as neither team has achieved their win condition and can't improve upon the situation. so, the traitor doesn't really gain anything by self-voting in lylo. the point still stands that the goon is better placed to not take the traitor into lylo anyway.

Wait, if 1-1 is a tie, doesn't the mafia have to take the traitor with him or the best he can do is tie?

Hoopla · Post Post #6911 (ISO) » Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:16 am

not all 1-1's are a tie. the town's wincon is when the goon is dead.

goon/townie is a tie.
traitor/townie is a town win.

Hoopla · Post Post #6912 (ISO) » Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:18 am

actually, i get what you're saying now.

hayatoBL · Post Post #6913 (ISO) » Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:51 am

In post 6909, Hoopla wrote:that's not a bad point, but i don't think people are going to be much higher than random in a two day game. like, i agree the difference between the two endgames probably isn't as jarring as 66% and 50%, but i think you'd be silly not to take the goon/town/town endgame as scum.

although, i guess it could create some interesting wifom in lylo about what sort of player would kill/not kill the traitor.

Looking at it percentage-wise, Goon should kill the traitor. But by doing so he lost two advantages.

Advantages of not killing the traitor:

1. Mafia has no reason to lie/pretend anymore. Now it's Town's job to deceive.

2. Mafia's job is to find the townest (the superlative) and lynch him. If Goon kills the traitor, he has to try to get people to lynch the 2nd-scummiest Town, since the scummiest town is already lynched D1. IMO doing the first is much easier than the second.

So, it's not necessarily more advantageous to kill the traitor. But we'll have to see.

And also, what chamber said.

hayatoBL · Post Post #6914 (ISO) » Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:07 am

In post 6910, chamber wrote:
In post 6907, Hoopla wrote:
In post 6905, Bicephalous Bob wrote:the traitor should just self-vote in lylo
my understanding of the rules is that a 1-1 endgame with a goon/townie would result in a tie, as neither team has achieved their win condition and can't improve upon the situation. so, the traitor doesn't really gain anything by self-voting in lylo. the point still stands that the goon is better placed to not take the traitor into lylo anyway.
Wait, if 1-1 is a tie, doesn't the mafia have to take the traitor with him or the best he can do is tie?

I think it's fair that way. No? Dead goon = Mafia lose. Dead traitor = at most a tie.

HempHHH · Post Post #6915 (ISO) » Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:56 am

Trouble in Sicily

Town

4 Vanilla Townies
1 Cop
1 Doctor

Mafia

3 Mafia Goons
2 Roleblockers

Thrid-Party

1 Serial Killer

Roleblockers can nullify the Cop and Doctor
The Serial Killer has One-Shot

BBmolla · Post Post #6916 (ISO) » Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:57 am

Yeah, no.

5:5:1 is in no way balanced.

HempHHH · Post Post #6917 (ISO) » Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:10 pm

In post 6916, BBmolla wrote:Yeah, no.

5:5:1 is in no way balanced.

Isn't The Serial Killer supposed to have a disadvantage though ?

Leafsnail · Post Post #6918 (ISO) » Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:43 pm

In post 6899, hayatoBL wrote:
I'm
Town
Mafia!!

I think the problems identified in this thread could be solved by
1. Making it so that the mafia can't kill the traitor
2. Making it so that the traitor cannot self-vote after they're revealed

The main issue remaining is that the traitor would probably want to jester day one, but that kindof seems like a natural part of the setup anyway.

This would also put the EV over 50% so there'd need to be a slight numbers shift or something, maybe make it 6 players instead of 5.

e: At 6 players the EV is 44%, which is pretty good. Although again bear in mind that the traitor basically wants to get lynched day one, which potentially screws up the purpose of this setup a bit.

e2: Also I forgot that 4p is different to 3p, you'd have to mess with the voting mechanics on day two as well if the traitor is alive

BBmolla · Post Post #6919 (ISO) » Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:51 pm

In post 6917, HempHHH wrote:
In post 6916, BBmolla wrote:Yeah, no.

5:5:1 is in no way balanced.
Isn't The Serial Killer supposed to have a disadvantage though ?

That's not the issue, the issue is it is basically unwinnable for town.

Take a look at some setups on our wiki to compare numbers.
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... pen_Setups

Marquis · Post Post #6920 (ISO) » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:40 pm

lol how to balance

Royals2 Town "King" Masons (receive "Town Royal" role PM)
1-2 Town "Queen" Neighbors (receive "Town Royal" role PM)
1-2 Town "Prince/Princess" Lovers (receive "Town Royal" role PM)
X "Peasant" Vanilla Townies
[maybe a Town Universal Encryptor?]

1 Mafia "Queen" Neighbor (receive "Mafia Royal" role PM) OR 1 Mafia "Prince/Princess" Lover (receive "Mafia Royal" role PM) OR 1 Mafia Goon
2 Mafia Lovers

Spoiler: Role PMs

You are a Town Royal.

You know that <Player> is your twin Royal. They may be a "King" Mason (Town), "Queen" Neighbor (Town or Mafia), or "Prince" or "Princess" Lover (Town or Mafia). Only when you die will your specific identity, but not partner, be revealed.
You may talk with each other privately during the Night here: <url>
[opt: If the Town Universal Encryptor is alive, you may also talk there during the Day.]

You also have the ability to vote during the Day.

You win when all the Mafia are eliminated.

You are a Vanilla Townie.

You have the ability to vote during the day.

You win when all the Mafia are eliminated.

You are a Town Universal Encryptor.

As long as you are alive, all roles with private chat capabilities may talk during the Day.
You also have the ability to vote during the Day.

You win when all the Mafia are eliminated.

You are a Mafia Royal.

You know that <Player> is your twin Royal, and is Town. They may be a "Queen" Neighbor (Town) or "Prince" or "Princess" Lover (Town). Only when you die will your specific identity, but not partner, be revealed.
You may talk with each other privately during the Night here: <url>
[opt: If the Town Universal Encryptor is alive, you may also talk there during the Day.]

You know that <Player> and <Player> are Mafia with you, and are Lovers with each other.
You may talk with each other privately during the Night here: <url>
[opt: If the Town Universal Encryptor is alive, you may also talk there during the Day.]

You or one of the other Mafia may choose to kill someone during the Night. PM the Moderator your choice.

You also have the ability to vote during the Day.

You win when the Mafia make up 50% or more of the Town, or nothing can prevent this from happening.

You are a Mafia Goon.

You know that <Player> and <Player> are Mafia with you, and are Lovers with each other.
You may talk with each other privately during the Night here: <url>
[opt: If the Town Universal Encryptor is alive, you may also talk there during the Day.]

You or one of the other Mafia may choose to kill someone during the Night. PM the Moderator your choice.

You also have the ability to vote during the Day.

You win when the Mafia make up 50% or more of the Town, or nothing can prevent this from happening.

You are a Mafia Lover.

You know that <Player> is a Mafia Lover with you, and <Player> is a Mafia Royal/Goon.
You may talk with each other privately during the Night here: <url>
[opt: If the Town Universal Encryptor is alive, you may also talk there during the Day.]

You or one of the other Mafia may choose to kill someone during the Night. PM the Moderator your choice.

You also have the ability to vote during the Day.

You win when the Mafia make up 50% or more of the Town, or nothing can prevent this from happening.

basically i just wanted to play around with the idea of 3 town pairs (or 2.5 town pairs) where there's a slight obscurity to the role PMs. idk how it would work out in practice but hey gotta find something besides sleeping to kill time at 4 in the morning. also not sure about encryptor, or town-scum ratio??

gosh this is such a weird idea i d e k if open setup stuff yeah.

callforjudgement · Post Post #6921 (ISO) » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:17 am

hayatoBL's setup has the same issues as SS3 does: none of the scum have any more information than the town does (they know they're scum, but that doesn't aid their gameplay in any way). This means that scum playing to their win condition looks indistinguishable from town playing to their win condition; the goal is just "get anyone else lynched", pretty much.

JasonWazza · Post Post #6922 (ISO) » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:35 am

@Marquis's Setup.

First up it looks fun, but mafia can get fucked so damn easily.

Depending on the amount of peasants, the game may be broken by the pairs claiming, if 3 pairs claim, lynch from the non pairs, if 4 pairs claim, lynch between the pairs.

Other then this, if the Mafia end up being the Prince/Princess Lover's, they are relying on that townie actually being competent and not being lynched, as Town can lynch that person and still manage to kill Mafia.

Not to mention that even though it's a 3 man scum team, they basically act as a 2 man scum team due to the pairing, meaning that scum have a major disadvantage.

Though all this depends on the amount of peasants realistically.

EDIT: Also in the case that the Mafia goon is rolled, and lynched Day 1 the game is broken by having pairs claim and either be confirmed town (the mafia pair don't claim) or become confirmable town (have their partner lynched.)

TierShift · Post Post #6923 (ISO) » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:42 am

So the king masons do not know each others alignment?

Burning_Earth · Post Post #6924 (ISO) » Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:13 pm

Something like this? (Yes, 9-3 is considered unbalanced here.)

9 town neighbours
3 mafia neighbours

Thee are three neighbourhoods of four. There is one to two scum per neighbourhood (three is impossible). Each neighbourhood controls an ability: cop, vig, bodyguard (one person in the neighbourhood protects one other person). The mafia NK as normal.Neighbourhoods have daytalk, scum does not.

The game is built around the scum trying to manipulate the town abilities, for if they do, they will surely win. However, if the town controls the abilities, they should smash the scum.