Open 44 - Twofold Mafia: GAME OVER! before 506

[shaft.ed]

vote JDodge

cause I want to know why too.

[shaft.ed]

unvote JDodge

cause I figured out why.

vote aioqwe

for not having an avatar

FoS Max

for same reason

[shaft.ed]

Any avatar works for me. I just have a lot of trouble keeping people straight without a picture to link to in my mind. It could be something really happy like kittens riding ponies over a rainbow bridge or something really sad like kittens riding ponies over a rainbow bridge

of death

.

[shaft.ed]

unvote, vote: shifted

, because he is switching votes and FOS'es way too much.

Might help voting for an existant player.

[shaft.ed]

Any avatar works for me. I just have a lot of trouble keeping people straight without a picture to link to in my mind. It could be something really happy like kittens riding ponies over a rainbow bridge or something really sad like kittens riding ponies over a rainbow bridge

of death

.

I think you got this backwards.

FoS ChronX

for stating bridges of death are happy. Only scum would want to kill kittens riding ponies.

[shaft.ed]

Tyler you've voted three times and you're accusing me of vote hopping. Hypocritical much? And you're a kitten riding ponie hunter. That's just evil.

IGMEOY

[shaft.ed]

unvote

even though kittens ponies and rainbow bridges are lacking

[shaft.ed]

PS that took me 30 seconds

One would hope so.

[shaft.ed]

Purposefully voting him to 3. Anyone ready to apply a little pressure and start playing?

Sure, you're doing exactly what you're calling Dasquian out on.

vote ChronX

[shaft.ed]

ChronX, your vote actually had a more significant impact than Dasquian's. Dasq's vote merely put a little bit of heat on aioqwe (a fellow with far too many vowels in his name btw). Yours had the effect of removing said pressure from aioqwe while placing pressure on Dasq. While I doubt there's anything to read into the activity on the first couple pages, your move did in fact have more impact via its depressuring of aioqwe.

So that's one scumpair down, one more to go .

[shaft.ed]

That's why it was in jest.

[shaft.ed]

now he's getting bandwagonned for it, and everyone's getting their kicks in while

it's the cool thing to do

.

Yes I was cool way earlier than theopor.

My vote went to ChronX because he said he wanted us out of the random phase and the way to do that was to vote somebody up to 3 votes. He failed to notice, for some reason, that his vote was already contributing to someone that had three votes. Also, if he reallly wanted to get the game moving with a bandwagon, he shouldn't mind if its on him. It's not like it's dangerous or anything. Right ChronX?

[shaft.ed]

I see Shaft (a fellow with far too many phallic images in his name BTW) is a bit aggravated.

Not even going to comment on aggravated shafts.

You can disagree with my ChronX's vote if you want, but it wasn't aggrevated. I put it on ChronX to help move out of random as much as he chose Dasquian. And I've clearly explained that his reasoning was flawed. It looked to me that he was trying to avoid having pressure on you. Coincidence that you would later come back and call my vote aggrevated?

And how is my vote more aggrevated than Rishi's? Mine came when ChronX only had one other vote on him, Rishi's made ChronX the most popular bandwagon thus far.

[shaft.ed]

Looks like some people woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.

[shaft.ed]

Looks like some people woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.

It's more that people trying to impugn my neutrality really, really piss me off.

But by reacting that way you're impugning your own neutrality. I know it's easier from my perspective since I haven't ever really played with ChronX, but I don't think reacting that harshly reflects well.

[shaft.ed]

rishi you don't know that

Jdodge you know that he wasn't saying he was going to lurk. From what I see, he was joking while trying to make a point.

I was pushing his button

to see his reaction, not because it was worth mentioning.

vote: Jdodge

When did you push his button. Do you have an alt or something?

[shaft.ed]

I do agree that shaft.ed is scummy but that's what everyone says about me it could be a play style

Thanks for the specifics on that one. Always tricky to defend yourself against ephemeral evidence. Would you like to point out something scummy or will we take you at your word?

[shaft.ed]

well All I was saying was you seam a bit edgy and are always pressuring people. Some people always play like that. Others don't.

You mean like what I just did to you?

pressures Max

[shaft.ed]

Note I'll be LA over the next week, parents in town.

[shaft.ed]

Sorry for took this long to make another post but i try my best already. Anyway, nice that we moving out of the random voting stage. I think ChronX action is explainable and i think he is town. On another hand, shaft.ed logic is weak and hasty so i will place my vote on Shaft.ed for now.

vote:Shaft.ed

but till this point, he hasn't make a response to my vote

CA I just saw you pointed out that I hadn't responded to your vote. Didn't realize I hadn't as I got a couple FoS rebuttals in. I agree with you that my logic was weak and hasty. But it was the best reasoning I could see for voting for anyone at the time. Noone else had done anything I found remotely strange and I thought the vote could aid in moving us out of the random stages as it seems to have pretty well.

[shaft.ed]

Scum like to appear pro-town it's their aim somewhat.

unvote

Re-reading.

Who was this in response to btw? Scum genearlly like to point out broad and obvious game strategy in the hopes of coming off more pro-town. (And yes I note the hilarity in me making a broad and obvious game strategy statement).

[shaft.ed]

I have another question for you. If you say you voted for Chronx to move our game out of random stage, then is that what Chronx trying to do?

I've already made this abundantly clear. Step 1) I saw game possibly moving out of random stage, Step 2) I saw ChronX bandwagoning with slightly faulty logic, Step 3) I thought pressuring ChronX could be a good way to move out of the random stage and possibly gain some insights into ChronX alignment. Step 3 was fortunate enough to have yielded the former, but I don't think I produced much on the latter. In conclusion, just because ChronX wanted to move out of the random stage, doesn't mean I should agree with or trust him.

[shaft.ed]

1) u saw the game could possibly moving out of random stage? Between u and Chronx, who saw this game could move our of random stage first?
2) Chronx bandwagoning is slightly faulty logic? Chronx didn't even have a reason for vote on Aoiqwe. He said he did that to move thing along. So you think something wrong here?
3) This, i can't argue but i will FOS you though.

1) Does is matter? If you want to know the exact moment of transition, I'd put it at Dasquian's vote for aioqwe as he is the first to state "to move things along."
2) It's slightly faulty because he reasons a) a bandwagon is needed to move the game along, b) 3 votes on Dasquian would constitute a bandwagon therefore c) voting Dasquian would create a bandwagon to move the game forward. What he didn't point out was that aioqwe already had three votes following Dasquian's vote one of which was ChronX's. As I've said this is slightly faulty logic, but not completely. And it indicates that ChronX would rather Dasquian be pressured early than aioqwe, thus the vote switch could be seen as a slightly protective play. Don't really know why you're having trouble wrapping your head around this one.
3) OK

[shaft.ed]

Dasquian, I think that if I were actually mafia, I would be sure of myself, not unsure. Just a thought...

Are you sure about this? Really don't think you can draw much out of Dasq's argument. Only way I can see this being the case is if it's your first time in the mafia role and you're a bit uneasy.

[shaft.ed]

I agree with the points on CA saying things that are overtly scummy as in "I was trying to blend in" (paraphrased).
Therefore

unvote ChronX

,

FoS CA

And Max, I'm really getting tired of you constantly saying my being pushy makes me scum. 1) Some of the most pro-town players I know are overly pushy, and 2) I'm hardly playing pushy right now, please leave examples if you're going to accuse me of something.

[shaft.ed]

Oops. My mistake. You said in the previous post that laying low was "not scummy." Stupid me.

Unvote

But stating you were trying to lay low is scummy. TylerJ may need to adjust his scum filter if he's seeing selective scumminess.

[shaft.ed]

back to LA over the weekend.

And CA that's incredibly weak once again, nice try.

[shaft.ed]

shaft.ed. Don't try getting in arguments. they don't help the game at all. I'm surprised about the fact that you posted about CA but didn't mention anything else. Is nothing remotely interesting enough to post about?

I was simply posting my LA at the time. I noticed my name in lights as I scrolled down and CA's argument was incredibly weak. He voted me for paraphrasing, when I clearly stated I was paraphrasing. If someone wants to get away with subtly putting different words into other people's mouths, they don't tell everyone they are doing such. And my paraphrase left very little to interpretation, it was very similar to what CA had said and was a result of me not having the time when posting to dig up the exact quote, and I felt it unneccassary as two others had commented on CA's post in question prior to me.

@Tyler, this is not me getting in an argument, this is me pointing out someone placing a vote on very shaky footing, which is a scummy play.

As far as suspicions go, I'd list CA for the above reasons and the originating statement of his intent to "lay low" (paraparaphrasing). theoper looks a little odd. I don't like it when people make strange plays (like voting without reason, and then making something up afterwards) and write it off as a scum hunting method. And finally ckillor, he seems to be trying very hard to not look like a lurker while actually lurking. If someone truly didn't have anything to add and wasn't worried about looking guilty, they just wouldn't add anything. But by posting the way he is he can attempt to not look like a lurker, but also be completely non-commital on his stances towards other players. This makes it easier for him to bandwagon in the future without looking like a waffle.

Sum of my post:

Fos CA
FoS ckillor

[shaft.ed]

And finally ckillor, he seems to be trying very hard to not look like a lurker while actually lurking. If someone truly didn't have anything to add and wasn't worried about looking guilty, they just wouldn't add anything. But by posting the way he is he can attempt to not look like a lurker, but also be completely non-commital on his stances towards other players. This makes it easier for him to bandwagon in the future without looking like a waffle.

Sum of my post:

Fos CA
FoS ckillor

all i was trying to do was be a bit more active and make it so the mod wouldnt have to prod me again for not posting. I havent had any stances on people yet, so how can you say that by not lurking anymore i can be as non-commital as i want? anyone can be non commital if they want to be.
It so confusing that i would be less scummy if i didnt post at all than trying to be active, but not having any strong suspicions

yet

.

Actually no. By posting a lot, but with little content you can attempt to not look like a lurker. And only by either not posting, or not posting any content can you be non-commital. You are the only person posting frequently that is being non-commital in this game. The other non-commitals are those that are simply lurking and not trying to avoid prods.
Just because you don't know how to lurk properly, doesn't make your lack of content any less scummy.

request for replacement.

Bah, that's the second suspect to ask for a replacement today.

[shaft.ed]

Actually ChronX has vote hopped more than theopor

[shaft.ed]

Actually ChronX has vote hopped more than theopor

implicit defense and subtle accusation... could be scummy

Or pointing out that someone was making a baseless argument. But that would be too simple wouldn't it?

[shaft.ed]

CronX seems to be throwing the votes around... I believe he's had the most vote changes... Could he be vote hopping?

Finger Nail of Suspicion: CronX

Seems that if casting suspicion on ChronX for vote hopping "could be scummy" you're in the same bote as I. Do you usually accuse people for doing things that you yourself have done?

[shaft.ed]

I've got a deadline tommorow and one on Friday, so I haven't had a lot of time to do more than superficial reads. I have done a full reread on one or two players. But would like to get a full thread re-read in before I post anything substantial.

I agree with others, that CA was scummy so, Panzer is working uphill and has a bit to prove. Currently I'm looking hardest at Ckillor for his obv lurking.

I'm sorry for not posting for a few day. Chocolate attack did leave panzer in a bad position we cannot completely overlook it as theoretically it's still the same person. Ckillor has still been sort-of scummy but cops sometimes try to do that. I think

shaft.ed could be scum

but less so than Ckillor. Tyler's nonposts have said nothing (like rishi said above) he hasn't been giving reasoning aswell, He needs to say things he DOESN'T find scummy comment on posts by other people than the ones that are scummy, The way mafia moves forward is discussion 1 person saying the same thing does not make discussion.

Max I'm really getting tired of this. You have a post of all of the people that could be scum, and yet again I'm in there. But notice how I'm the

only

person that has no evidence to go along with the accusation. Would you please tell me why I am scummy. This is at least the THIRD time now and I'm tired of it.

FoS Max

for baseless accusations

PS. Nice eye Panzerjager, that is in fact the Sorcerer from Diablo.

[shaft.ed]

Tyler -- You never responded to these points by Max. You're leaving your options open by calling everyone and everything scummy.

I endorse the above statement.

[shaft.ed]

WTF! you've got to be joking!!!

This will almost definently change after my reread, or if he get's to -1

...so yr. vote isn't even a real/serious vote??!!?? You jump off the ckillor wagon 15 minutes after I question people a/b it & then imply that you don't necessarily agree with yr. own vote...which you yr.self have just switched!!!

Panzerjager - please explain.

Yes I am also surprised that Panzer would move his vote immediately after GH mentions the Ckillor wagon lacks merit. Also note this is pretty soon after Rishi has further 'elaborated' on his vote for TylerJ. By elaborated I mean Rishi said he thought TylerJ was scummy because he smelled really scummy.


And JDodge, are you and Max working together to accuse me of being scummy for nothing?

Really? You don't find shaft.ed suspicious at all?

While your attempt was much more subtle, its again an attack with no support. And both of you are lurking rather heavily. Either of you care to elaborate?

[shaft.ed]

Sorry Rishi you're right I did twist your play a bit. That was meant more to point out that Panzer was molding his actions to the local 'consensus' than an attack on you.

[shaft.ed]

I told you what you could do to defend yourself, Tyler. I asked you to post a list of who you definitely thought was town. You only named ChronX and refused to give any more names. Still waiting on that "complete analysis" that you promised.

The fact is that you had been given chances. You just are not paying attention.

And if being defensive is your playstyle, I would suggest changing it in a hurry. Because being defensive will never reflect favorably on you.

This looks like coaching to me.

Tell me, if no one backs up their claims, what am I left with. Whats worth is that appearently people have fallen for those accusations and I am at five votes. Tell me, Why should I not be defensive and aggravated?

If no one backs up their claims it's quite simple to call them on their BS. I really don't see why you're getting your panties in a tissy if the accusations against you are baseless.

So if Rishi's coaching wasn't enough here's a step by step simple approach.

1) Find people's accusations against you.
2) Examine their evidence
3) If evidence does not exist call them out for not having any evidence
4) If they do have evidence against you explain why your actions/statements were not scummy

I'm giving this advice because if TylerJ is town and he follows the plan above, we will avoid spending time trying to lynch a townie and possibly find scum associated with his bandwagon. If he is scum he will have weak arguments which will snowball against him and we can proceed beyond a bandwagon.

Note that this is not coaching in the way Rishi played it above with his "Do X and I will find you more townish" approach. I find this type of play a bit dubious.

[shaft.ed]

Actually TylerJ is changing a lot of things that are evidence into "gut feelings". For example, he was called out multiple times for being aware of his newbiness. While I haven't considered whether or not that's a scumtell, it's certainly not a gut feeling as you describe it.

Sheesh, I was only away for the weekend

FOS: TylerJ

for sounding scummy - he seems pointedly unsure of himself, though this of course could be genuine newbieness.

Can’t defend against gut feelings.

I'd say your defense was inadequate in some regards Tyler. But you also pointed out a lot of play that appears opprotunistic at face value.

CA you seem to defend Chronx multiple times. That's scummy. Perhaps you are partners in crime, eh?

Man, that's the second consecutive post where you labelled a certain kind of behavior "scummy." Is everything scummy in your eyes?

Unvote: ChronX

Vote: TylerJ

Is that worthy of a vote? Someone says, xyz is scummy, and they suddenly become scummy? Since when was this scumtell?

I really don't have time to do a thread re-read right now, but I will get generate some new content next week instead of this replying to things as they come like I've been doing lately. One deadline down, one to go.

[shaft.ed]

Please show me where I am "cutesy".

This comes from the man who has changed his avi to a fluffy pink kitten.

I thought it was a Kung Fu Guinae Pig.

I'm just about done with my deadlines. I hope to get something substantial up this afternoon.

I just wanted to say that I found Rishi's assessments a bit off, and will address that with my next contentful post.

And yes I had some minor issues with CA's play. Panzer's seems to fit what little I know of his playstyle from meta'ing a newbie game he IC'd. This doesn't mean I don't find it a wee bit scummy.

[shaft.ed]

I just wanted to say that I found Rishi's assessments a bit off, and will address that with my next contentful post.

This is another reason I don't like listmaking. If you actually give opinions on things, then people will find all sorts of reasons to find you scummy. Would you prefer a bland, content-neutral assessment of the players in the game? You have plenty of those to look at.

I have no problem with you making a list, in fact I appreciate the effort. I find people that are completely against making them to be scummy because they won't go on record. And just because I disagree with your assessment doesn't mean I'm going to think your scum. Such disagreements can lead to discussion about said persons alegiance which is a good thing. You seem a bit touchy about my comment that I didn't agree with you. There's not a word about you being scummy up there.

And if I have plenty of bland content-neurtral assessments, why am I described as an agressive townie on your list? Would you care to demonstrate these assessments of mine, or continue fabricating discussion topics?

[shaft.ed]

OK, I've had some time to analyze the thread, but not quite as much as I'd like. I really have trouble with Day 1's because there are a lot of people and interactions to keep track of. Also everyone is starting with a clean slate so it's difficult to read people. Finally ChronX is the only other player here I've played with before so I'm not completely familiar with playstyles. Just wanted to give that bit of background so you know where I'm coming from.

Chocolate Attack/PJ:

I guess I was the person interacting most with CA. He rubbed me the wrong way because he kept asking asinine questions about my vote on ChronX. I had already explained it pretty throroughly. This gave me a bad perspective of him personally. He also made a couple odd statements that really revealed either a shallow understanding of the game, or a purposefully superficial analysis in order to make his point.

My reason for believe he is a town because early game, most scum will just drop a random vote and lurk around or wait for an appropriate bandwagon to claim on. Beside, i don't think a scum would go around promoting reasoning votes.

Another point is Shaft.ed is too hasty to grap on Chonx so i make a connection between a scum-voting-town.

Here he states that ChronX's vote was more reasoned than mine and scum wouldn't make a well reasoned vote. Personally I found ChronX and my votes to be quite similar. We both saw something mildly scummy and a potential to move out of the random phase with a bandwagon. Both of us did so, and random was gone. Secondly he assumes scum are just going to vote all willy nilly for whatever gets them a lynch. This is an incredibly silly assumption to make as if scum wouldn't try to blend in with the crowd. Others pointed out this gaffe.

Then there was the bombshell

Smart towns usually lay loy and try to pin down one or two scum with most accurate evidence then they will start to show themselve. Try to too stand out is not likely to be something a protown would do.

Yup, this is a bad play from me. I was trying to lay low until i got all questioned.

To me to mention that you are trying to lay low is an incredibly common newbscum tell.

This was the end of CA's contribution. It came of as quite scummy to me given his rather short duration in the thread.

PJ has taken over for him. He's not been here very long. I do take issue with his very heavy bandwagoning. He started by jumping on the biggest bandwagon of the time, ckillor. But once it was apparent that TylerJ had more momentum due to Rishi's vote, switched. While I agree this does match with his playstyle and it has generated conversation, I still find it scummy. Tyler is fairly obviously new at this and new players can suffer from foot in mouth syndrome. I personally feel a lot of the early bandwagoning of Tyler was unfounded but his poor defense has given it late momentum which is somewhat deserved.

Conclusion, I find the CA/PJ combo to be scummy, and would not have given then top town billing simply because PJ is playing as normal.

Lurkers:

I personally do not like playing with lurkers. While I understand a lot of people like playing this way, it's incredibly easy to fly under the radar in the early game without saying much especially if you have created a history of doing so (JDodge). Right now I'm unhappy with the contributions of ckillor, Max, JDodge, GH, and Theo. I'm happy with GH's play he's been contributing to conversation and pointing out issues with other players. I'd be surprised if JDodge has posted 500 words in this thread yet. This makes him impossible to read, and if he is town I find this irresponsible. ckillor Max and theo all seem like scummy lurkers to me. Ckillor had his issues with I'm just posting so I don't get prod'ed, which was just weird. He has added some content recently so I'll back off, but not really that settled. Theo seems to do drive by voting and one liners. He once graced us with the logic of his vote. I personally don't like votes explained post facto, and constant use of this tactic is very scummy to me. Max seems to be the worst of the lurkers just ahead of ckillor. He's only had 6 posts since the random phase ended and some weird content. Most of his posts just echo what others have said, and when he does add his own ideas it gets worse.

Ckillor has still been sort-of scummy but cops sometimes try to do that.

Bad on many levels, it's quasi-fishing and at the very least pointing out possible cops to the scum. And he's defending ckillor while his vote sits on him. Internally conflicted much?
And I know this is OMGUSy, but he's four times now pointed out that I'm scummy two times without reason and two times because I was pushy.

I have more thoughts to add, but don't have time right now. I've got ideas on Rishi and TylerJ, and I'd like to do more reading on ChronX and Dasq. Might not be back until Monday cause I'm LA over weekends.

I won't vote at the moment because the rest of my analysis contains more people I am suspicious of.

[shaft.ed]

wow just dropping in for a light read. Didn't intend for any content.

But ChronX a call for a claim with a wagon that really appears to be likely on it's way down that's just crazy. And you explain this play with logic that blames "unpredictable players." You've got to be kidding.

vote ChronX

And ckillor thanks for yet another 'I'm here but not going to say anything style post.

[shaft.ed]

ChronX, I realize my play was unexplained. I aught to have time to get some more content behind it.

Your request for a claim came off as very scummy to me. I really don't see the reasons behind the Tyler bandwagon as being well founded. Thus, I felt you were trying to exploit the flimsy wagon by getting a roleclaim out of it. To boot I felt your excuse for asking for the claim was quite unwarranted. He was at L-2 with very little discussion going on. Furthermore, you moving your vote to him in order to keep the pressure on invalidates your reasoning for requesting the claim.

The wagon on you isn't going away and there are a couple of players not voting whose actions, in this game and meta-wise, are not entirely predictable.

Clearly you are saying you are worried about someone else moving their vote to TylerJ and lynching him before he can claim. Now that you have moved your vote to him, it is clear that you are only interested in his claim, and not worried about someone coming in and rashly lynching a powerrole before they get a chance to claim. The wagon definitely isn't going away if you add your vote to it. Your reasoning is even further conflicting when you later state:

My suspect list continues to be Max and GH

If Max and GH are still your top suspects, and you're worried about someone(s) coming along and suddenly lynching an unclaimed player on a -2 bandwagon, why are you maintaining that player at -2 and moving your vote off of one of your top suspects?

I'm hoping to get something more up in the next couple hours. Busy day at work. I wanted to talk about Rishi. But this last sequence of events seems to be a bit more pertinent. So I'm going to get something up on TylerJ and my opinions of the bandwagon.



Finally, I do agree that panzer's post was quite off.

I still want a claim from tyler but Unvote, Vote:Ckillor

If you still want the claim, removing pressure will not get it. That's very self-contradictory.

Very confusing, we have one player that's afraid of the bandwagon but votes into it, and another player that wants to maintain pressure but jumps off the wagon. Is this backwards action day?

[shaft.ed]

ckillor, your posts to date consist of three types:

1-"I'm not lurking, but have nothing to say"

2-One single run down of all the players

3-"Hey look I made a post with an analysis of all the players, I'm really not lurking"

[shaft.ed]

Bah I haven't got the time to day for the amount of content I want in the Tyler analysis.

Short version is basically I feel that he is giving off a lot of newb tells that may be scum tells. He has taken some heat for compiling a number of these minor tells. The heat grew becuase he is very poor at defending himself, which again is a minor scum tell.

My personal intuintion is that Tyler is likely a flustered townie, but may be scum as he is certainly giving off some scum tells. Also given that there is an extra scum in this game, even though they don't know who they are, they thus have a larger voting block. Therefore I think we need to be more careful of who we lynch. A player like Tyler would be fresh meat for any experienced scum. His de novo arguments have been weak, he tends to get defensive easily and he has been quite poor at rebutting people's arguments even when it is clear that he should be able to.

What really jumped out at me was when ChronX argued that he is worried that a pair of unknowns could swing in and lynch Tyler before the town even gets a chance to hear a roleclaim. First of all, the people voting for him have done piss poor jobs of making their case against him. Anyone that would come along and add a lynching vote to this bandwagon would likely be in a poor situation should Tyler come up town. Secondly, only Dasq and Rishi had even talked about Tyler's scumminess in the last page and a half. Although no votes have moved, it was effectively not a topic of discussion at the time aside from Rishi's post just before you. And lastly you state that the non-voters are too unpredictable for you. These players are myself, ckillor, aioqwe and Max.

I am currently playing in another game with you so you should be familiar with my playstyle. I have not moved my vote around all willy nilly there nor here, so I know you aren't talking about me in this instance. I haven't meta'd or played with the other players, but ckillor hasn't placed a vote since the random phase. Your lucky to even get content from him and you seriously think he'd just jump in and hammer a L-2 player when the majority of the town find him scummy? Then you have aoiqwe, who also hasn't placed a vote since the random phase. How are you reasonably worried that either of these two players are going to jump and and finish off a bandwagon before a claim? Finally you have Max. I haven't meta'd Max, but judging from his join date it's likely many of you have played with him. Someone else could probably help me out here if it is or isn't likely to expect Max to hammer in this situation. But Max has also not moved his vote since the random phase. And I'd also repeat many players have chimed in stating they find Max scummy. I very much doubt he'd hammer against the town's wishes with such a weak D1 performance.

What this last longwinded paragraph boils down to is that your fear was that two of the Max, ckillor, aioqwe, me quartet might come in and hammer Tyler before the town got a chance to hear his claim. That's a junk argument as three of those players haven't even laid down a vote since the random phase.

[shaft.ed]

ChronX fair enough on the Tyler wagon. Thanks for the elaboration on ckillor, if its not ongoing a link would be great. While I agree more info may come from the Tyler bandwagon I'm mostly concerned about two things.
1) An unneccessarily outed town powerrole.
2) A partially scum induced breakdown of a weak townie. As you said, with 4 scum we have to be very careful, unless we get lucky with scum crossfire and I'd rather not rely on luck.

[shaft.ed]

Tyler's last post didn't sit right with me:

ABWOP: Part of me wants to be lynched so that everyone who decided to jump on me for lame reasons will have it backfire on them. And then, perhaps they will play the game intellegently instead of rashly. Yet, the otherside of me says that I shouldn't throw in the towel and that I should try my hardest at this game.

In that post we've got spiteful "I hope you all pay for your idiocy, dunderheads!", mitigated with some awkward-sounding self-restraint. The whole effect is of someone trying to sound like they're playing emotionally, but are also very rational.

You're giving him far too much credit. This post is definitely scumy, but I doubt Tyler could pull off what you're saying based on his previous play.

I am not pleased that this town is already setting a precedent for getting the willies when something interesting happens; it always heralds a long game with deadlined days.

I may be naive, but what good would have come from a TylerJ claim? Maybe I'm not seeing something obvious to the rest of the wagoners.


And Panzer, I've got to agree with the others, your play is erratic at best. And I'm not sure where you're getting the "obviously town" from, but that's part of the secret recipe so no one else gets to know apparently.

[shaft.ed]

I'll wait to hear from Panzer before I put him to L-1, but the back and forth and back and forth each time with near certainty is just ludicrous. Very likely to vote regardless of what Panzer says.

And, its already been hit on by many, but I'll also repeat GH that thing about changing avatars is just silly.

@Rishi, you mention Tyler's vote as if he were jumping on a bandwagon, he only voted after ckillor, and ckillor is hardly pulling any weight in this game. I wouldn't call Tyler's vote opprotunistic at all.

[shaft.ed]

The speed with which Panzer's wagon grew is unsettling. I'd say there's at least 1, maybe 2 scum on the wagon so far.

Two scum from different Mafia groups, perhaps?

Also, I didn't remember the vote order on Panzerjager. I thought two people had voted for him before TylerJ jumped in. Maybe not opportunistic, but I still don't think it's good play to jump on the person who defended you. (Not necessarily scummy play, just bad play.)

I'd say Tyler could easily be scum with Panzer. The other person, though, escapes my memory at the moment. I think it was either Dasquian or ckillor.

I don't know if Tyler would bus Panzer in such a manner. But him being only the second vote, maybe he didn't see it going this far. Losing a partner this early in the game would be very difficult for the remaining mafia especially with crosskills. Tyler's reaction will be interesting.

ckillor also started the wagon, I don't know if he could have figured it'd be so popular. But it's certainly gotten the heat off of him for the time being. That's quite convenient.

Dasq has been on the two major wagons of the day, only missed out on ckillor's short wagon, and was quite unhappy that Tyler's fizzled before a claim was given even though he stated that he had no concrete evidence against Tyler. Later called out the town for "getting the willies." He's certainly playing agressively.

Still wanting to hear from Panzer. And JDodge's comment has not made me afraid of adding my vote. With two scum groups, it's likely scum will be on any early wagon regardless of player alignment. The current pressure on Panzer is certainly justified.

[shaft.ed]

Panzer, you're still quite active on site, but seem to be avoiding this thread. Have you gotten yourself into a pickle? You aren't lurking your way off of this wagon.

[shaft.ed]

I am not pleased that this town is already setting a precedent for getting the willies when something interesting happens; it always heralds a long game with deadlined days.

I may be naive, but what good would have come from a TylerJ claim? Maybe I'm not seeing something obvious to the rest of the wagoners.

I realize that the panzer wagons has garnered most of the attentin as of late, but Dasq I would like a reply to this question.

[shaft.ed]

@JDodge, while you have pulled up an interesting yet tenuous case against Dasq, if you like Waffles, Panzer's last two pages have been sponsored by the Waffle House. Your second attempt at drawing attention off of Panzer is noted.

I guarantee there is at least 3 scum on my wagon.

Remind me not to buy a used car from you. You do a lot of guaranteeing and 100% suring in situations where that cannot be possible.

This wagon has 4 scum and a newbie that is anxious to hop on the biggest bandwagon cause it isn't him for the first time in a few pages.

Oh look now there's four scum on the wagon, and without any new votes. So you've found them all for us, I can pack up and go home now. This seems very much like an attempt from scum to scare townies away from a vote. Effectively "you don't want to be associated with these scum when I go down." The same tactic was used by JDodge yesterday btw.
And Tyler wasn't a newbie hopping onto the biggest wagon. He voted into it when you were at 1 vote, your constant misrepresentations are being noted.

[shaft.ed]

@JDodge, while you have pulled up an interesting yet tenuous case against Dasq, if you like Waffles, Panzer's last two pages have been sponsored by the Waffle House. Your second attempt at drawing attention off of Panzer is noted.

It's more that I've played with Panzer before and thus knows how he plays, meaning that I'm not all that surprised by his behaviour in this game, which does not match Panzer-scum IMO.

Thanks for the lead. I'll do some meta when I get a chance.

[shaft.ed]

My impression is that Panzerjager is frustrated. He's looking scummy because he's wearing his emotions really close to the surface right now. I would actually be surprised if he turned up scum.

It's mixture of frustration from unfounded accusations and IRL drama.

Hope the IRL drama calms down. And I don't think the accusations are that unfounded.

Shaft.ed, Rishi, Jdog, Tyler: What do I have to do in order for you to listen to me. Post PBPA on the 4? Post arguements to their arguements? I want to make this fast.

I don't really like giving people directions they can explicitly follow so that they can become non-scum (though I did give Tyler some guidance). But your lucid posting here is helping your case. I tend to have a lot of false scumdar with emotional players. Still trying to calibrate that. Not sure if that's the case here.

And Shaft.ed how is saying 4 scum are on my wagon intimadating to town, if all 4 scum are already there then how can I add more scum if a townie jumps on?

To me it's the same as saying "when I turn up town, you're all gonna look like scum." Just makes townies second guess their decision to lynch you in a mildly threatening way.

EBWOP: In The event of a modkill, will it end day?

Dude, please do not modkill yourself. That is the worst possible thing you can do for the town. Remember if you're town you want the town to win. If you get modkilled we get less information than if you get mislynched.

Nah, I'm just happy with voting Dasquian-scum. More people should be happy and vote Dasquian-scum.

You didn't like my point about ChronX-scum? Posts 312 and 316. I think ChronX is the most likely scum on Panzer's wagon.

[shaft.ed]

I've got to admit, I read up on some of Panzer's other games and he is indeed all over the place. I hate letting people off of the scum hook because "that's just the way they play" but it does account for a lot of his actions. I've still got my eye on him, but I'm finding ChronX's previous actions more scummy.

Shameless wagon hopping by JDodge noted (I'm sure he's worried).

But this non-Panzer wagon is not going to get off the ground until we can pull some support from the fence straddlers.

And Rishi this is an over the top defense of Panzer. Especially since you seemed inclined to throw a vote his way in the future.

I don't think I will vote for you today, Panzerjager. At least not now, in any case.

Did his modkill bluff scare you away, or are you actively protecting him?

[shaft.ed]

Dasq, ckillor's last post seemed the much less scummy than his average posting, care to elaborate?

LA over the weekends.

[shaft.ed]

I have to agree that the ChronX bandwagon was quite interesting. It seem that I was the only one who actually voted for any reason, everyone else just voted to remove pressure from panzer and assert pressure somewhere else. To everyone that shamelessly bandwagoned ChronX

IGMEOY
unvote ChronX

And Frosypants welcome, are you sure you're not just an alt for JDodge, the name sounds applicable.

[shaft.ed]

And Frosypants welcome, are you sure you're not just an alt for JDodge, the name sounds applicable.
--
Well, normally I would scream at you for calling me an alt, but I won't. xD
So this Jdodge is renowned for alts, eh?
But I don't exactly have any proof of me not being an alt....
But I'm not an alt?
o_O;
If you get on more often, you'll see I'm on practically all day.
I don't have a life.
And I'm too young to get a job.
And I think Jdodge has one of the above, a life or a job.
But I don't. :U

Ahhhh!
I posted one bit for this game in another game.
Damn me for typing two posts at once....
Anyway, this was supposed to be in my last post.



Come to think of it..

Unvote: Panzerjager

But my vote sorta stands.
I think the Mafia will try to lynch you..
So I withdraw my vote.
-shrug-
But it's still sorta there. :U

No JDodge just wasn't very warm and fuzzy, so Frostypants sounded like an applicable name for him. It was in jest. And I doubt he plays with alts anyway, he's in an incredible number of games right now, I doubt he'd need more.

In regards to your actual game play. You seem quite jumpy. And the mafia will try to lynch anybody. We have two groups in this game. It's almost a certainty that some sort of scum will be on any given lynch today.

[shaft.ed]

So Dasq, you think a policy lynch is a good move in this position, or just holding out the bandwagon until panzer breaks? Would you find the hammeree to be of a scummy inclination since you seem to support such a move?

[shaft.ed]

sorry I guess hammerer would have been the correct term. The one who places the hammer is who I'm talking about.

[shaft.ed]

Welp

revote: ChronX

. I gave my reasons earlier, and Panzer presenting as Doc adds to that argument.

I still don't see why you claimed panzer. Dasq was the only one calling for it recently, and not getting a whole lot of support. Guessing it was just frustration. While it's likely you'll be NK'd, it could be interesting to see if either of the scum gamble to not target you so that their NK won't be wasted by overlapping with the other group.

@Frostypants, WTF?

[shaft.ed]

I think he's just been reading the discussion thread about self voting and thought it was a thing "cool people" do.

[shaft.ed]

This games gotten quite slow. I'll repost my reasoning against ChronX and personally see if I think it holds up (it's been a while since the vote).

Dasq, are you happy with your policy decision?

Panzer, you are playing just as bad if not worse than Tyler IMO. You were at L-2 with most people forgetting about the wagon (Dasq was the only one even talking about it) and you decided you 'had' to claim. That's just stupid especially as you're the most vulnerable power role. Now you go on telling everyone even more implicitly that you think Tyler is a power role. Great playing there.

[shaft.ed]

wow, I didn't realize this was called two-fold mafia because everyone would be replaced by the end of D1.

Dasq that's the second time we've had an opposing view on the status of a wagon. I guess I'm just a wagon half empty kinda guy while you see the wagons being half full.

[shaft.ed]

5 out of 7 isn't exactly half-empty

Serious question: did you think the Panzerjager wagon was about to collapse, and under what circumstances would you have thought him claiming would be appropriate?

Actually Dasq if you look back at the time of the claim it was 4 out of 7 that's close enough to half since votes can't be split

So yes the wagon was already collapsing. I think after the JDodge/ChronX dust up both wagons were destined to fizzle. I obviously don't have the experience you do, but I find premature claiming and asking for claims prematurely very scummy (I've already called out ChronX in this game). I think L-1 is the appropriate time for a claim. Anyone swooping in for a lynching vote after a claim should know they are going to get lynched the next day unless they have a good explanation.

And since ChronX is still being replaced I guess I'll

unvote

. It's not like his replacement is going to be able to explain anything (they never do).

Need to reread again. Looking at ckillor, Rishi and Dasq.

And everyone can we pick up the posting a little bit?

[shaft.ed]

EBWOP: Also I don't mind if the claimer asks people to move the votes down to L-2 for safety reasons before claiming, I just find that without an obvious consensus for someone's lynch claiming gives the mafia more information than they need.

[shaft.ed]

wow, that's a lot of replacing. Thanks for all the work finding these guys SSF. And thanks to the replacers past and future.

[shaft.ed]

OK, I see where you're coming from. Personally I find waiting til L-1 to be far too late because it's too easy for someone to come in and drop the last vote, either as a scum gambit or (far too frequently) as an unobservant/careless town.

If the person turns out to be, eg, the doctor, it's pretty disastrous

.

That line seems to cut both ways.

I'm thinking ckillor is the most scummy player yet to be replaced.

vote ckillor

But man I don't even know if a reread is even worth it right now with a third of the town turning over.

[shaft.ed]

That line seems to cut both ways.

That was my point. Wasn't it better that what happened happened, instead of getting him to L-1 and then, eg, ckillor or Max dropping a hammer vote?

No. I don't like my Docs claiming at L-3. Notice that L-3 is exactly the number of votes that scum control right now. While it would be obvious, they could theoretically drive bandwagons until the other two power roles are outed.

And if ckillor or Max dropped a hammer, I'd have to wait and see if they come up scum before I'm upset with the result.

[shaft.ed]

EBWOP: I found another reason to call this two-fold mafia. Because only two people are posting.

[shaft.ed]

It's hard to stay motivated to play when we're waiting for three replacements.

QFT

[shaft.ed]

Happy scumday.

SSF is there someway you can get Thesp involved in the replacements? It seems that with the town being turned over so much, the 20 odd pages we have are largely irrelevant (yeah I know calling them irrelevant is not right since we've had 2-3 wagons and a claim, but replacements usually just say "yeah that guy I replaced was scummy, sucks to be me doesn't it?"

See panzers replacement post for example

). So for new subs the reread won't be all that bad. Maybe he can let you take people from the open sign up thread?

[shaft.ed]

Thanks for replacing in guys.
Now that we're almost back to a full game, I'll try to get my reread in today.

[shaft.ed]

pwayne66, thanks a lot for the quick summary following replacement. One thing about panzer really stood out to me.

Sikario8- Sikario comes in on a bad not in my book. Sorry. CA already left Panz in a rough spot. Panz seems to admit that he was pushing for a lynch of somebody he knew to be a townie (#370). Calls for a claim then doesn't call for it. Goes agro-defensive and claims that there is no logic behind his wagon. Post 370 was terrible and very WIFOMy.

This guy is dead barring a Doc claim. Its funny that is exactly what he did.

Distorts the position against him and never really defends himself, just threatens to call his detractors idiots. Scum pile here.

As I've noted his claim didn't come until his wagon was down to L-3 so your point is rather exaggerated. And to say he's dead barring a Doc claim is very off. He's dead

because

of the Doc claim. Mafia are not letting a claimed Doc survive the night, you've got to be kidding me. Doc is by far the worst claim for longevity in this game outside of Mafia Goon.

shaft.ed- Again, fence sitting here. I have no problem with his play style as some people has said they are. Guys like this are needed to stir stuff up. I'm not sure I understand the Chronx push though. It seems that the only reason you suspect him is his call for a claim. This isn't a bad reason, but does seem too weak to be voting for after 20 pages. You zero in on him for his vote against Das early on. "I put it on ChronX to help move out of random as much as he chose Dasquian." Currently on Ckillor ... a pretty safe place to park a vote...

I personally don't feel I've been sitting fences, but I am a rather cautious player when it comes close to lynching so I think your comments are fair enough. I felt my ChronX vote was much more explained than what you gave me credit for. There was more to what ChronX did than make a call for a claim. And in regards to the ckillor vote, all of my suspects had been replaced. I don't think maintaining a vote on a replacement would be fruitful, as in all of my past experiences the replacements just say "yeah that guy was scummy, wonder why he did that?" ckillor has yet to be pressured and he is the most scummy non-replacement in the game.

[shaft.ed]

I don't want to quibble, and I am a relatively new player here. I think that doc is a good claim for a scum that is about to be lynched. Either:
A) everybody backs off.
B) the real doc counter claims and the town kills scum (just like they intended anyway) but get the added bonus of taking the doc out with a nk. This wouldn't work if he claimed cop as the doc could protect the real cop. The doc can't protect himself.

I missed this post earlier.

This is a good tactic for scum to use

. However, as we haven't seen a counterclaim yet, I am inclined to believe Panzerjager.

Though, for the record, I was in a game with Panz where he made a fake counterclaim of cop, which led to the real cop being lynched (if I remember correctly). That game is completed. I can provide a link if anyone wants to look at it.

This is poor poor logic for this game. Even if panzer is scum, there is another scum group that will be happy to kill him. If he's lying and claiming as a scum cover he's either the other scum group or the Doc. How this keeps him alive I have yet to comprehend.

[shaft.ed]

Short version:
Doc claim = NK

Long version:
Doc claim turthful = player claiming is Doc = Mafia NK said player
Doc claim untruthful = player claiming is Mafia = Other Mafia NK said player

[shaft.ed]

So let's move on. I want to pressure Max for complete absence, I also think ckillor is a worthy bandwagon target. I still don't find ChronX scummy, and I agree that shaft.ed is being quite equivocal but I read that as townieness.

Max is being replaced. Although he was playing scummy I don't know what good pressuring up the replacement will do ahead of time.

I also think ckillor is the most worthy target and that's why my vote should be on him (SSF I think you missed my vote).

I made my case for ChronX a while back here it is again to refresh:

ChronX, I realize my play was unexplained. I aught to have time to get some more content behind it.

Your request for a claim came off as very scummy to me. I really don't see the reasons behind the Tyler bandwagon as being well founded. Thus, I felt you were trying to exploit the flimsy wagon by getting a roleclaim out of it. To boot I felt your excuse for asking for the claim was quite unwarranted. He was at L-2 with very little discussion going on. Furthermore, you moving your vote to him in order to keep the pressure on invalidates your reasoning for requesting the claim.

The wagon on you isn't going away and there are a couple of players not voting whose actions, in this game and meta-wise, are not entirely predictable.

Clearly you are saying you are worried about someone else moving their vote to TylerJ and lynching him before he can claim. Now that you have moved your vote to him, it is clear that you are only interested in his claim, and not worried about someone coming in and rashly lynching a powerrole before they get a chance to claim. The wagon definitely isn't going away if you add your vote to it. Your reasoning is even further conflicting when you later state:

My suspect list continues to be Max and GH

If Max and GH are still your top suspects, and you're worried about someone(s) coming along and suddenly lynching an unclaimed player on a -2 bandwagon, why are you maintaining that player at -2 and moving your vote off of one of your top suspects?

What really jumped out at me was when ChronX argued that he is worried that a pair of unknowns could swing in and lynch Tyler before the town even gets a chance to hear a roleclaim. First of all, the people voting for him have done piss poor jobs of making their case against him. Anyone that would come along and add a lynching vote to this bandwagon would likely be in a poor situation should Tyler come up town. Secondly, only Dasq and Rishi had even talked about Tyler's scumminess in the last page and a half. Although no votes have moved, it was effectively not a topic of discussion at the time aside from Rishi's post just before you. And lastly you state that the non-voters are too unpredictable for you. These players are myself, ckillor, aioqwe and Max.

I am currently playing in another game with you so you should be familiar with my playstyle. I have not moved my vote around all willy nilly there nor here, so I know you aren't talking about me in this instance. I haven't meta'd or played with the other players, but ckillor hasn't placed a vote since the random phase. Your lucky to even get content from him and you seriously think he'd just jump in and hammer a L-2 player when the majority of the town find him scummy? Then you have aoiqwe, who also hasn't placed a vote since the random phase. How are you reasonably worried that either of these two players are going to jump and and finish off a bandwagon before a claim? Finally you have Max. I haven't meta'd Max, but judging from his join date it's likely many of you have played with him. Someone else could probably help me out here if it is or isn't likely to expect Max to hammer in this situation. But Max has also not moved his vote since the random phase. And I'd also repeat many players have chimed in stating they find Max scummy. I very much doubt he'd hammer against the town's wishes with such a weak D1 performance.

What this last longwinded paragraph boils down to is that your fear was that two of the Max, ckillor, aioqwe, me quartet might come in and hammer Tyler before the town got a chance to hear his claim. That's a junk argument as three of those players haven't even laid down a vote since the random phase.

Looking back his play is not out of line with Dasq's in regards to what I view premature claiming. But I still find it odd that he'd first be worried that Tyler's going to get quicklynched and ask for a claim, then once panzer's vote is removed feels the need to maintain the pressure on Tyler in order to be able to continue asking for the claim. Basically this switches the claim request from a "gee I wouldn't want the town to accidentally lynch a power role" to "claim before we lynch you." It's a totally different outlook, and the reasoning is based on

Panzer's

play not even Tyler's.
And this isn't the only L-2 vote from ChronX. A page or so later he's slapping down a L-2 on Panzer that eventually leads to a Doc claim. I guess everyone else seems to be fine with this series of events, but if lordy could drop his thoughts in about my concerns I'd be much obliged.

Anyway, I'm still in favor of pressuring ckillor, need to do a reread of the players still in the game. And hopefully Max will get replaced soon, so we can start hounding his replacement about all of his bad behavior.

[shaft.ed]

I thought it was a joke pointing out the fact that it took pwayne66 three posts to simply state "I agree with what the guy above me said." I suspect Rishi is trying to plant suspicion where none exists.

[shaft.ed]

i'm still trying to decipher people's opinions of me, so, if, by any chance, you can let me, like,

know

...that'd be great...

Thank you...

Sik, not to be blunt, but you're a claimed Doc. You're not on the table for a lynch today, and I doubt you're going to be around tommorow.

If you want to know breifly, I found CA's early play above scum threshold for coming out of the random stage. Here's the complete recap of what I summed up previously about CA:

I guess I was the person interacting most with CA. He rubbed me the wrong way because he kept asking asinine questions about my vote on ChronX. I had already explained it pretty throroughly. This gave me a bad perspective of him personally. He also made a couple odd statements that really revealed either a shallow understanding of the game, or a purposefully superficial analysis in order to make his point.

My reason for believe he is a town because early game, most scum will just drop a random vote and lurk around or wait for an appropriate bandwagon to claim on. Beside, i don't think a scum would go around promoting reasoning votes.

Another point is Shaft.ed is too hasty to grap on Chonx so i make a connection between a scum-voting-town.

Here he states that ChronX's vote was more reasoned than mine and scum wouldn't make a well reasoned vote. Personally I found ChronX and my votes to be quite similar. We both saw something mildly scummy and a potential to move out of the random phase with a bandwagon. Both of us did so, and random was gone. Secondly he assumes scum are just going to vote all willy nilly for whatever gets them a lynch. This is an incredibly silly assumption to make as if scum wouldn't try to blend in with the crowd. Others pointed out this gaffe.

Then there was the bombshell

Smart towns usually lay loy and try to pin down one or two scum with most accurate evidence then they will start to show themselve. Try to too stand out is not likely to be something a protown would do.

Yup, this is a bad play from me. I was trying to lay low until i got all questioned.

To me to mention that you are trying to lay low is an incredibly common newbscum tell.

This was the end of CA's contribution. It came of as quite scummy to me given his rather short duration in the thread.

I found Panzer's play quite poor but after meta'ing him, it seemed that his "voting all over the place" was a common playstyle for him. I also found his Doc claim irresponsible and a poor play for the town.

[shaft.ed]

The win condits for both groups of scum are (quoting from front page) You win when at least half of the living players are Mafia A/B, or when nothing can prevent the same. - wouldn't either of the respective scum groups achieve this goal quicker by _not_ nk'ing sik??

Removing the role that prevents you from killing other players will obviously facilitate the killing of your opponents. Your logic fails.

[shaft.ed]

Tobiassan replaces Max!

Sweet does that mean the gang's all here or are we still waiting on other replacements?

And welcome to the game Tobiassan.

[shaft.ed]

Lordy, I've posted my extensive reason for the initial ChronX vote. I would like to see what other's that voted in the past have to say. At the time of the bandwagon it felt like a few of the people were voting to save panzer's ass and shamelessly bandwagon. I would like to hear reasoning from the other's that have not been replaced (Rishi, JDodge, ckillor)

I don't like looking at a sketch of two naked people making out.

They're clearly naked elves making out.

No time for a reread today. Will post one liners if the need arises.

[shaft.ed]

Just checking in. I will have time next week to put up some analysis before leaving for Thanksgiving holiday.

Right now I'm happy with my ckillor vote. He's clearly lurking and doing so in a scummy fashion. If I can get some input from him I may be inclined to move my vote.

And replacements thanks a lot for signing up for this one, it was a trainwreck about a week ago, but so far pwayne is the only one of you guys to really add anything. Some of your thoughts would be nice.

[shaft.ed]

In the meantime, just in case anyone's wondering, I requested for people to justify their votes on me so that I can gain their fresh updated perspective regard me, and my predecessor's behavior. Some of the logic use thus far has been utterly weak, and I do not want to be forever defending myself 10 pages into the past.

I agree with this sentiment. While I did supply reasons I thought were adequate for a vote, it seemed quite a few people were voting to counter a bandwagon. I'd like to hear from JDodge and Rishi about their votes since they are the only players left from that bandwagon.

And thanks aioqwe.

[shaft.ed]

Happy Birthday Shaft.

Clearly lurking in plain site . Thanks

I'm going to try to get up all my opinions of everyone(s) today. I wish I could put it all in one post for easy reference, but I don't think I'll have the solid block of time to do so. I'll use a 100 point scale, 0 being town 100 being scum.

Dasq:

Aggresive but straight forward player. Pushes bandwagon's and states clearly ahead of time that he wants claims or lynches from most. At first I was hesitant about such a strategy. I still am not 100% behind it, but as power roles in this game are not as useful as in other set ups (ie cop innocent doesn't mean innocent) and the Doc is presumably outed already, I think this is actually quite a protown strategy to force claims. I find his votes reasoned though I do not always agree with their placement.

30

TylerJ:

While I do agree he gives off scum tells, I am still under the impression they are primarily newb tells. He was bandwagoned early for very little reason, but his reaction was defensive and non-effectual. His arguments against others were quite poor and he seemed easily flustered. His move against Panzer at the time looked justified and I agreeed with his vote, but Panzer's subsequent Doc claim casts a new light on the possible motives behind the vote. I'd say he's scummy, but I am still thinking he could be a nervous townsperson.

60

CA/Panzer/Sikario:

I have already posted my feelings about CA's scumminess in detail. He was the scummiest standout in the early phase of the game. Panzer's play very much ping'ed my scumdar, but meta'ing him made me realize this was normal play for him, so a little less weight is applied. His Doc claim is also suicide meaning I very much doubt he could be anti-town. Sikario has added nothing that would outweigh the Doc claim contribution of Panzer. This comment is wrong however and I missed commenting on it at the time:

Dasquian

Pressure Panzerjager; On Panzer’s ass. If mafia killed Panz, I’d say Das was mafia.

Mafia will kill Panzer regardless of who they are. Him dying is a null tell sicne he is the claimed Doc.

10

Rishi:

In every game I undoubtedly have a player setting off my Subconcious Scumdar TM. Rishi has been that player in this game. I can't really put my finger on it, but I find Rishi scummy. He's been on three bandwagon's (two of which were in common with me) and made a joke about being bandwagon buddies which makes me fear scum buddying up to me. I found his reasoning behind the TylerJ bandwagon to be almost non-existant, as well as his inclusion on the two ChronX wagons. He also overreacted when I said I disagreed with some of his points after a long post of his. I realize if I'm going to make a case against Rishi I will need more specifics, so I will be doing a more in depth analysis of him later on.

65

ChronX/ lordy:

I've already posted and reposted my feelings on ChronX. I've also initiated two bandwagons against ChronX during this game. The fact that they were so easy to get off the ground makes me strongly consider that there were scum on both (note me, JDodge, and Rishi were on both wagons, JDodge and Rishi were also on Tyler together). However, ChronX is not well liked by certain players that are/were in this game so it may have had personal undertones. I think lordy's subsequent play has been a bit lurky and until the most recent post a little paranoid. But I liked the aggresive tone of his last post and this did erase some of my suspicions towards lordy specifically. I think my suspicions of ChronX have been diminished by lordy's recent play.

40

That's all for now. I'll try to finish up later today.

[shaft.ed]

I'm done with vote-hopping. I think we have enough information to make an informed lynch. The only players I am willing to vote for today are lordy and aioqwe.

I have to say I am quite surprised that you are so sure about aioqwe. The only argument I can find you ever making against aioqwe is:

aioqwe -- Doing exactly what I have been accusing TylerJ of doing. I am surprised this guy doesn't have more votes. He has not really been commenting except to call this and that scummy. He uses a lot of FoS's instead of votes (scummy because you play both sides of the fence - if the person isn't scum, you can say, "Well, I didn't vote for him." And if they are scum, you say, "I was suspicious too!). Has not been helpful at all lately.

And that was nearly a month ago with no added pursuit from you or scum tells, that I could find, coming from aioqwe. I can see you wanting to push a lurker, but if that's all you require, there's a town roster full of lurkers in this game. I hope you will clarify your narrow lynch choices on such a generic player with a little more evidence.

until then

FoS Rishi

[shaft.ed]

Sure... you want more on aioqwe, here we go. I am surprised no one looked at this post. First, he blatantly says that he is going to bandwagon lordy.

JDodge and I have votes on lordy based on things that ChronX did a while back

, and we have left them there. Doesn't this seem like a convenient attempt to just get at the person with the most votes?

I find it a bit odd that you would speak for JDodge in such a way. Especially since he's admitted to having no reason behind his ChronX/lordy vote

Meh.

Unvote, vote: ChronX

This is blatant wagon-hopping. Discuss.

So aioqwe has now done the exact same thing as JDodge, but aioqwe is scum because JDodge had non-existant reasons for his vote.

I also don't see aioqwe admitting he's not going to attempt to read old posts:

Throw in the fact that he admits that he's not even going to attempt to read the old posts and you have someone who is not even trying to be helpful.

Re-reading isn't helping me... No matter how many times I look back I can't pick out anything. New posts seem the way to go for me (:

Sounds like he has been rereading "many times" in fact. He says he's just not commenting because he's not picking anything up.

In summary, I agree aioqwe is lurky and his vote on lordy is bandwagoning, but he's said that. I don't know how this is a big enough scum tell to make him one of two people that you are comfortable lynching today.

[shaft.ed]

my reason for my vote on ChronX was to get reactions over the shameless bandwagoning thing.

It seems the only reaction you got was Rishi's recent use of your vote to add some kind of import and rationalization to his vote on the same wagon. I suppose you found nothing odd about this as you've dropped a vote on Dasq instead?

[shaft.ed]

Dasq is scum with pwayne.

But Rishi can be part of the other scumgroup.

Man, how many games do you have to play in order to find three of the four scum on D1? If you think Rishi, Dasq and pwayne are scum why only vote Dasq? I'll vote Rishi if you do.

[shaft.ed]

OK this is probably dangerous, but I'm going to try to rush in a couple opinions before I log out for the day.

theoper/pwayne:

Theo was very lurky during his play and didn't explain his actions often. He did indicate a couple times that he was having access issues, so this may have been excusable. His contributions were generally pro-town to me. He was part of the first ChronX wagon and actually gave a reason for the vote. Seemed to take on the lurkers more than anything, giving a post against aoiqwer with a vote, and also went after Tyler for accusing people without taking a stance. Switches his aioqwe vote over to ckillor as a part of that mini-wagon. Didn't really have much else to say. Pwayne came in with a pretty detailed analysis of everyone in the game, quibbled a little bit about the meaning of panzer's claim and then refuted lordy's suggestion that noone had given a reason for their votes on him. All together they seem generally protown.

35

Max/Tobiassen:

Max lurked a lot and conflicted his statements a few times. Didn't like his play. In his first substance containing post he attacks CA for using bad logic to attacks me for playstyle, and then me for "playstyle" (bad logic much?). He maintains his suspicions on me without ever substantiating anything, which I didn't like and he never really addressed. Has a quick suspicion of ckillor. Then FoS's panzer before leaving. Note that he never voted for anybody after the random stage, and his accusations are really all over the place. I don't know how he didn't get more attention before, but I guess the Tyler and Panzer incidents were distracting people. Tobiassen hasn't really added anything but soft core elf porn sicne replacing in for Max. So I'd really really like to here your thoughts on Max's play. But for now, I'd have to say Max is the scummiest player of my reread.

75

I'm going to finish revisiting everyone before I vote again, which will hopefully be tommorow.

[shaft.ed]

EBWOP: Bah I butchered a sentence in the above post. Really shouldn't rush these longer ones.

In his first substance containing post he attacks CA for using bad logic to attacks me for playstyle, and then me for "playstyle" (bad logic much?).

Should read
....he attacks CA for using bad logic to attack me, and then he attacks me for "playstyle"......

Bargaining? If you think someone is suspicious, then vote for them. Don't ask for support.

Also, I would

take what JDodge is saying with a grain of salt

.

I was just posting in a similar vein as JDodge. I would take my comment with a grain of salt as well.

[shaft.ed]

voting for someone 101:

Before voting for someone be sure that you are not casting a vote for another player as this is not allowed. In order to do this type

unvote

and be sure it is bolded. You can bold text by highlighting the said portion and clicking the B at the top of your interface.

Now that you know how to unvote, voting is simple. Simply type in the name of someone you want to vote with the word vote preceeding it. For example

vote Tobiassen

. Now bold your text as above.

See that was easy.


Seriously Max was scummy, you aren't contributing and that last post is full of scum trying to look careful.

[shaft.ed]

Dasq, I found your vote for Rishi a bit odd. You list players that have hard evidence against them, but then vote from your gut. I know I have the same feeling towards Rishi, but I find it odd you'd go gut over evidence. I'm going to try to get a better analysis of Rishi together, however I find your play odd.

FoS Dasq

Obvious OMGUS vote there Tobiassen, I really enjoyed the reasoning behind it. You take after Max.

I hadn't realized we were approaching deadline. There's about a week left. I'm going to be out of town when it hits, so I'll probably get my last post up on Friday. That means we need to reach a consensus soon. It seems that a couple players have started listing people that they are comfortable lynching. Once I finish going over everyone's posts I'll get up a similar list for myself.

[shaft.ed]

i have divined from the posts thus far the following likely scumpairs

Dasquian-pwayne/lordy (more likely pwayne)
Tobiassen-ckillor/shaft.ed/groinhammer

people not voting for one of them are wasting their vote

As of now I'd probably not include anyone in the top potential scum group at all. In regards to the bottom potential scumgroup, I haven't read up on ckillor or groinhammer yet, but I'd probably be fine with a Tobiassen or ckillor lynch for today. I don't recall groinhammer being overtly scummy.

[shaft.ed]

ckillor:

Seems to start off trying to add content. Makes about three posts as such on the fringe of the random phase. Then he starts his string of "I'm here but I'm not going to say anything. That means I'm not a lurker" posts. I count 6 out of 21 of his posts being as such. Then he makes his content post which lists his opinions of everyone in the game. Then he makes a bunch of posts saying "look I just posted content, I'm not lurking." Starts to partake in more active play later in the game, agrees with suspicion towards ChronX, but worried that voting will make him look suspicious, then moves vote after receiving pressure. Again he's afraid of garnering suspicion and stating it in plain English. Very odd play, and I think very scummy. Replacement isn't here yet, but I hope they can say something about ckillor's play.

75

JDodge:

I'm going to completely ignore the Frostypants contribution to this role cause he seemed to be entirely clueless. I've never had the pleasure of playing with JDodge, but from reading any of his games, he's incredibly hard to read D1. He lurks a bit, and gives few opinions but get's away with it because of his reputation. But he does have a lot of good insights in his posts. Has tried a couple times now to get something moving on Dasquain (I'm currently reading back over that). A little concerned about his bandwagoning of ChronX the second time, easpecially his reasoning that he was voting for reaction. This is used by players trying to look protown, but giving leeway for scummy play. However since it will be used with both town and scum alignments it's a bit of a null tell. Overall I think JDodge is leaning town. And even if he is part of one scum group, his scum hunting abilities should at least help us ferret out his opponents.

40

[shaft.ed]

Rereading JDodge got me thinking a bit about Dasq. For those that are too irate to go search for JDodge's initial argument here it is:

I FOUND Y'ALL SOME SCUM

ChronX - since it looks like you understood that, why didn't you unvote me? Seems like your vote was tied to my "random" 3rd vote which wasn't.

I don't like this bandwagon on ChronX one bit - it seems like he's got the right intentions of trying to drag us out of pages of gibberish even if he jumped the gun on voting me, now he's getting bandwagonned for it, and everyone's getting their kicks in while it's the cool thing to do.

WAFFLES! I'm not buying the "Well, it's scummy, but he has the right intentions..." line of reasoning. Not one bit.

Unvote, vote Rishi

- she seems the scummier out of her and theopor, though I also want to hear theopor's reasons for a vote.

Why Rishi and Theo?

And theopor, what was scummy about 54? On the basis he thought I was random voting aiquoewe up to 3, that was a reasonable first "real" vote to place.

This is the same vote that ChronX made on you. Remember earlier when you implied that you thought ChronX thought that it wasn't random, or was misrepresenting you or some such nonsense? It would seem that you've flip-flopped on that, too.

And then in the next post:

he lays into me for a semi-crap reason

Crap, reasonable, semi-crap... I LOVE WAFFLES

I have no solid read on theopor *snip* theopor seems the most townie out of those three, having made some points I could get behind.

This, combined with Dasquian's earlier posts makes me think theo is Dasquian's scumbuddy.

And that's the best case I can assemble half past midnight.

Unvote, vote: Dasquian, FoS: theo

What you notice is some early distancing between ChronX and Dasq. I also found it a bit odd, that a player like Dasq who seems to love wagons so, would get "the willies" when the ChronX wagon starting moving. However, his adamancy towards the TylerJ and Panzer wagons were quite clear although there was just as little evidence against them (I'd say less in Tyler's case). So Dasq, why were you so intent on forcing Tyler and Panzer into a claim or lynch situation, but so tender towards ChronX?

[shaft.ed]

Sikario, I don't think it matters if you get replaced or not. You're not going to be lynched today and your the most likely NK for the night. But as others have mentioned, I'd change the sig. This game is moving pretty slowly and you still can't keep up.

Tobiassen's play is throwing me for a loop. I tend to give strange players a benefit of the doubt becuase I feel people can use their odd "playstyle" as an excuse to get a lynch without having much scummy evidence on them. But you can't just argue that what Max did is ignored. Replacements don't get a clean slate. And you're still doing very little to move the game forward.

pwayne, you made a mistake in your JDodge analysis. He also has lordy listed as potential scum totaling 7 players. Add in himself and a claimed doc and he's successfully weeded three likely townies out of eleven players. Tyler, aioqwe and Rishi would be his probable town along with himself and Sik the claimed Doc. And I agree with you a post from Tyler would be nice, as well as groinhammer.

Dasq, I've got more questions about the ChronX wagon. Hope to get a post on it up this morning.

[shaft.ed]

Sikario, I don't think it matters if you get replaced or not. You're not going to be lynched today and your the most likely NK for the night. But as others have mentioned, I'd change the sig. This game is moving pretty slowly and you still can't keep up.

It does matter, though. Even though he probably won't be lynched, he still gets a vote.

Bah you're right I phail. A 99% town vote is really an important one at that.

[shaft.ed]

You're clearly not making any sense. I can't tell if it's deliberate or not, but this is the last time I'll bother refuting you point by point.

Replacements don't get a clean slate. And you're still doing very little to move the game forward.

On the contrary, replacements are easier to dedect if they're scum, because if the first player is acting scummy and then the replacement is also acting scummy, it's a probability that he really is a scum.

Your response doesn't even address the point I brought up. I didn't say anything about detecting scum from replacements, I just pointed out you are starting from a scummy position. You don't start the game with a clean slate. When you replace for a scummy player we start with the assumption that you are also scummy until you prove otherwise.

and imo im moving the game forward as hell,
no matter who i'll vote or what isay.

How can you be "moving the game forward as hell" if your votes and statements don't matter. This is absolutely ridiculous. So far you have posted zero content. This is the closest I could find to any game related discussion:

Full House

ChronX - 3 (Rishi, Sikario8, ckillor)
Sikario8 - 2 (groinhammer, lordy)
ckillor - 2 (pwayne66, shaft.ed)

Not Voting - aioqwe, Tobiassen, TylerJ, Jdodge, Dasquian

12 alive, 7 to lynch, 4 at deadline.

Deadline in 12 Days, 1 Hour, 36 Minutes.

hmm, i see a pattern here. both Ckillor and Sikario8 voted for ChronX, and they both got 2 votes on them self now.,
So to get balance in the system we need to get 2 votes on Rishi.

Voting for Rishi so that Rishi Sikario and ckillor all have to votes. Nice addition.

This is one of the most informative statements you have made:

I have no idea what im trying to achieve with this post, im just doing it.

[shaft.ed]

Vote Sikario8

Reason :

i find it scummy to trow in a vote on a man that clearly is way up in deep shit valley, when he himself if quiting the game and requesting replacement.


and im very sorry, i've done the all so huge sin of tripple posting O.o

You've got to be kidding me. Your first actual contribution to the game is to vote for a claimed Doc? And you did so because he voted for someone he was already voting for?

my votes in the right place.

[shaft.ed]

Oh for god's sake.

I don't know if Tobiassen is totally clueless or what, but how much am I going to let slide here?

Sikario is our claimed, uncountered doc.

Unvote Rishi, vote Tobiassen

. It's been one long string of nonsensical action after another and none of them are helping the town.

I'd rather this lynch to lordy's by a long shot

, even though I'm not particularly hot on either.

I found this statement a bit out of place. The list of Dasq/lordy connections continues to grow.

[shaft.ed]

Note: JDodge's scum list just broadened from 7 of 10 to 8 of 10. That's quite a broad net. Wonder if aoiqwe and Rishi are safe.

[shaft.ed]

OK Tobiassen's play seems to be consistantly "light-hearted." While I've seen that be used on occasion as a valid pro-town strategy, generally the person going with such a play style will make some conclusions based on the reactions to their posts. Thus far I haven't seen any such ploy by Tobiassen. While behaving in such a manner may not be inherently scummy, it is inherently anti-town as it serves to distract players from what is going on in the game. Therefore, combining what I think is scumminess from Max's play with Tobiassen's two scummy slip-ups that I've previously noted. I think Tobiassen will be my vote for the day (have to leave town and computer access on Friday).

That said, my views towards Dasq have been wavering a bit after reviewing JDodge's post. But in a subsequent reread I see again that Dasq gave Tyler plenty of explanation of the situation he was in. And also gave him some advice that I see as someone trying to help out a possible townie from becoming nervous and getting lynched. While I do find it odd that he would be so adamant about a Tyler and Panzer claim, Tyler was at L-2 for about 3 game pages and panzer was playing scummy. The different stance towards ChronX/lordy has been noted ad nauseum now.

The person that came out scummy again was ChronX/lordy. I think if they are a pair, which I'm not really sure about, lordy should be the first one targeted not Dasq. I hope that the people actually voting lordy would go read my posts from that time and draw conclusions based on that (ie. I don't like aoiqwe's current "let's bandwagon close to deadline" vote).

What worries me most about the lordy/ChronX issue, is that I seem to be the only player that has ever provided a substantial case for lynching him. Also three bandwagons have now easily formed against him (interesting note that Rishi was on all three). This gives me a bit of pause in pushing for his lynch.

I think as of now my lynch list would be ckillor, Tobiassen as top priorities, lordy and Rishi as secondary. Maybe aioqwe.

With ckillor out for replacement and no one taking Tobiassen seriously, I might move to a secondary lynch choice if it appears my Tobiassen vote is going to waste.

[shaft.ed]

Also Jdodge, this is a reasoning game. I do not see why you are not giving reason to your votes.

Reasons are overrated.

No they're not. They just get you into trouble when you're wrong.

everyone else is just trowing around insults and disrespecting my avvie, but Jdodge is just playing it cool,
I'm just accusing JDodge for being a good mafia player (god forbid if I'm wrong), but be aware, I got my eye on you,

What the hell?

Sounds like the classic too townie fallacy. Why aren't more people voting for Tobiassen?

[shaft.ed]

Sounds like the classic too townie fallacy. Why aren't more people voting for Tobiassen?

Fallacies aren't always scumtells. tobi didn't vote for Jdodge only said that he thought he was a good player and required extra watchin'.

I take it that you think that tobi is more likely very very bad scum than very bad and disinterested newbie. Is this accurate?

I'm reading him as scum right now. I guess it's because I've been burned in a couple games recently where I gave erratic play too much of the benefit of the doubt and I am trying to adjust accordingly. Two times they've come up scum in my games here, so I'm trying to be more firm in this regard. It seems others think I'm over-reacting. I'll try to get one last re-skim in today to see if my scumdar needs adjusting.

[shaft.ed]

yeah tob, post something of actual content I'm being persuaded more and more that you are scum and not just a newb, you don't even try.

Note on Jdodge. I can't reference a game, but I played a game with Jdodge before when he provided no Reasons for voting. He didn't once scum hunt. Town lynched him and he was a town. This could be a scam that he uses to esape the radar when he is scum, I don't know. All I know was that he wasn't contributing at all in the game and he came up town.

JDodge is very active on site. I haven't played with him, but his general style is to lay fairly low early game. Then turn it up a bit once more information is available (you can see this in his Dasq loves waffles post). It's a very effective style as it gets him through the game without much posting which means dropping fewer scum tells regardless of alignment.

I'm about to be out of the thread until iminent deadline. I'm pretty certain I'm going to leave my vote on Tob over my time away. Him + Max = scummy. I don't really like lordy's play, but bandwagoning him and ChronX has just been far too easy for the number of tells given off. Also not liking Rishi much, but that's a more subtle issue, which I think will be cleared up as the game progresses further. ckillor is also scummy, but not replaced yet, it seems like a poor move for the town to lynch someone without any defense (or subsequent discussion) when other D1 candidates are also worthy.

[shaft.ed]

Found a way to get online but it's a dial up so I'm still not caught up.

Sad to see lordy lynched for no reason, but I think there's definitely scum on his wagon. I'm going to be looking into Rishi when I get back into the game Monday my skim of late day activities had him pingin my scumdar frequently.

Strange that Korlash was killed. He's an easy lynch target as he puts himself in very awkward positions. I'm thinking whoever targeted him hasn't played with him yet. I will do a meta on this.

Also Tobi is already putting out scum tells.

and i where certain that JDodge where scum.

very next post

and why did JDodge get killed?
i honestly cant see any reason.

You just answered that question.

All I have time for now. Might pop in once more today. On the road over the weekend. Hope to have content Monday.

[shaft.ed]

Another "i'll get to it soon post"

Have a lot to say but no time to say it. Pretty busy work day so not sure if I'll get anything in.

Welcome to the game Claus.

[shaft.ed]

OK time for a quick post. I need to do a reread to refresh the end of day activities before I get my bigger one up.

pwayne mentioned my being upset with the lordy lynch. While it's true that I provided the most evidence against ChronX/lordy I had mentioned many a time afterward that the two ChronX bandwagons were far too easy. In fact so was the lordy bandwagon. Korlash pointed this out rather nicely, though mixed in with his usual craziness, that lordy was likely just a disinterested townie. This was proven by his lynch. I tried pushing an alternative but was out of thread in the days before deadline. During my reread I'm pretty sure I would have favored a Tob or Rishi lynch but I forgot my exact reasons for suspecting Rishi.

Unfortunately it was a deadline lynch and thus we may not know whether scum were on the wagon. We already know that JDodge was town, and Sikario is still an uncountered Doc who somehow survived the night. Rishi was on ALL 3 ChronX/lordy wagons and his reasoning was not great (I intend to get into this in much more detail with a later post). Aoiqwe pretty much just said "what the hell" and voted lordy. The discrepencies with his previous cautioius comments have been noted. Tyler also crept onto the lordy wagon. His vote came in later than others and was really superfluous to the lynch. I see it as inconsequential. Likely scum would not have bothered placing such a vote.

Thus I think Rishi and aoiqwe should garner some suspicion from there presence on the lordy wagon.


In regards to Sikario's non-death, I find three possibilities likely. 1) the claim was not believed and the mafia didn't want to waste a NK. 2) the threat of wasting a NK on a common target was deemed to great to risk. 3) the mafia are playing overly confident and think Doc protection might even come their way. While these are not mutually exclusive I find it likely that the second scenario is the most likely. The choice of (slightly) scummy targets also makes it clear that the mafia were trying to avoid Doc protected players and maybe even score a cross-kill. Also while I think the third option should be considered when reading into players' alignments it falls into the trap of the 'too townie' fallacy.

I'm also surprised that it appears Sikario didn't send in a night action. I can't see this being a lie from a false claim since his action is totally unverifiable, but I don't know why he wouldn't have sent in a protection choice. I'll just say this makes me believe his claim a little bit less.

Anyway, I still think Tob is playing scummily. I'm also not liking Rishi and aoiqwe would be third on my list as of this moment. I'll be putting in an end of day read and making my case for Rishi. Based on how that read goes I'll likely vote Tob or Rishi.

[shaft.ed]

I also think it's interesting that there are only two vanilla townies left

This got me thinking. Would a mass claim be totally crazy for us right now? We've already outed our most vulnerable power role (who didn't even function last nigth) and cops aren't nearly as useful in this set up since only a guilty result means anything until we wipe out one of the scum groups. Now that there are only two vanilla roles left scum will be forced to counter their own alignment cop or blend in with the only two remaining vanillas. Even with the cops outed the scum will have a WIFOM choice as to whether to take the Doc out and risk overlaping NK's or target their own cop who might garner protection. And if they kill outside the claimed role pool they will risk whittling away another vanilla role for them to hide behind.

I've never been in a game with a mass claim before so I'm not sure what obvious negatives such action would have. Anyone have opinions on this line of discussion?

[shaft.ed]

I've been thinking about how this would work out and here are my likely results. Note that I am assuming no Doc counter claim because that is fairly dangerous and only a single Cop counter claim. After these assumptions we're left with four outcomes:

1) All scum claim vanilla:

Thus we have two uncountered Cops and an uncountered Doc and three confirmed pro-town players. Then we are left with a pool of 6 players 2 of which are town 4 of which are scum. Odds of lynching scum today will be 67%. Bonus is that lynching a townie isn't even that bad because 4 scum are then contained within 5 players. Night choices for scum will be incredibly difficult IMHO. They will have the WIFOM of targeting their Cop who can now easily be protected, or do they target the known Doc and risk an overlapping kill. Better yet the scum have a very large chance of cross-killing since they will know each other quite well. Likely NK results are hard to determine but I'd say Overlapping kills, Successful Doc protection and cross kills are all decent possibilities in this situation.

2) One scum claims cop, rest vanilla:

Here we will have one uncountered Cop and uncountered Doc with a protested Cop claim. Within the cop group there will be a 50% chance that one is scum and the other a power role. Within the townie group there will be a 60% chance that one is scum. Again lynching from the townie pool will be the play of the game. The scum that has countered the cop would have a difficult decision at night. If they kill of the actual cop they out themselves as scum for tommorows lynch. If they don't kill the cop they risk leaving him alive to investigate a partner. On the other side of the ailse the Doc is very likely to protect the uncontested claim and thus the other mafia group cannot kill their corresponding Cop. And if they target townies they lose their cover, thus they will be likely to take out the Doc. Night actions would be very likely to lose our Doc and probably a second player from the townie pool. I think both cops will remain intact, crosskills possible. Decent town outcome especially if a crosskill occurs.

3) Two cop counterclaims:

In this scenario we will have both scum group counter claim their respective cops. Here we will be left with two cop pairs at 50% chance of being scum and a pool of four possible townies that contains two scum. Odds of hitting scum from any group are 50%. As above I think it'd be best to lynch from the townie pool since this will give a back up of increasing our likelihood of finding scum in said pool if we mislynch. Night actions would be a likely Doc kill, but possibly not if scum are worried about overlapping NK activity. Both teams will be left with the conundrum of killing their cop = outing themselves and thus I think our Cops will likely be left intact for the night. Crosskills possible as well as overlapping Doc kill. Likely a decent night outcome, but the dilemma the next day over which cops to believe could prove too difficult to overcome.

Thus WCS we have our chance of hitting scum go up to 50% from 33%. Also with the scum stuck in their claims, they will not be able to kill cops if they attempt to counter a cop claim. Conversely, if they claim vanilla, they increase their odds of being outed. I think I like the chances given a mass claim.

[shaft.ed]

two quick thoughts.

I said earlier Korlash was an odd N1 kill. He gets himself into a lot of trouble without any help from the mafia. Anyone who has played with him should know this. I suspect his killers didn't. Has anyone here ever not played with Korlash before?

Also if we do go with the mass claim, I think it'd be best for the Cops to just claim cop first time around. This way it'll be more of a gambit for false claims in case scum think they are in better standing than their specific Cop type. If we do this we can go with a second round of claims where cops specify which type they are.

signing off for now

[shaft.ed]

cops don't know they are A or B (based on pms on page 1)

Also note that if the above is true than completely throws off shaft's logic because his assumption is cops know if they're A or B

Good catch I hadn't noticed that. I think this makes my theory have too many draw backs. I'll roll it around in my head for a while but I'm thinking the claim will be less powerful than I had originally thought.

ummm... just throwing out the idea: shaft posts the whole potential outcomes because he thinks his partner is inexperienced and wants to "tell" his partner what to do...

I realize you're just throwing out the idea, but I find it hard to believe. As town, we cannot evaluate our actions without knowing what the repurcussions will be. How do you expect to decide whether or not it is in the town's benefit if you don't know what the outcomes could entail?

[shaft.ed]

@Pwayne: Every post you've submitted thus far, excluding some reactions, has been brimming with substance; however, you don't feel as if you know enough to vote?

I think this is a good point.

And happy Birthday.

Since the claim is looking less useful I'll be back to good old fashion scum hunting instead of game breaking later today.

[shaft.ed]

EBWOP: I don't know why it just occurred to me, but doc isn't a safe claim in this game. I'm sure that somebody else has mentioned it and I just missed it, but if this is the case, Sikario being alive today is a null tell.

Yes we went back and forth on this at length when you entered the game. Glad you have had an epiphany. While Sikario may still be scum, a claimed Doc is really not a lynch candidate.

[shaft.ed]

Dasq, I like your analysis style (aside from me being scum of course). I think I'll try getting something similar up later today.

One point of contention, I really don't understand how you could have gotten that good a read off of Claus. GH didn't post much and Claus hasn't really been here that long. I'm surprised this puts him in your town group.

[shaft.ed]

OK before I get my list in I wanted to do a simple wagon analysis. Anything of four or more votes will be included as a wagon. Bolded names are confirmed townies.

ChronX/lordy

v1- 4 (

Jdodge

, shaft.ed, theopor_COD/pwayne66, Rishi)

ckillor/Korlash

- 4 (Max/Tobiassen, theopor_COD/pwayne66, TylerJ, Panzerjager/Sikario8)

TylerJ v1- 5 (

Jdodge

, groinhammer/Claus, Dasquian, Rishi, Panzerjager/Sikario8)

TylerJ v2- 5 (

Jdodge

, groinhammer/Claus, Dasquian, Rishi,

ChronX/lordy

)
*Note that this was entirely caused by panzer dropping his vote and ChronX quickly adding his, will not be counted separately in tallies below.

Panzerjager/Sikario8 - 5 (

ckillor/Korlash

, TylerJ, Dasquian, groinhammer/Claus,

ChronX/lordy

)

ChronX/lordy

v2 - 5 (shaft.ed, Rishi,

Frostypants/JDodge

, panzerjager/Sikario8,

ckillor/Korlash

)

lordy

v3 - 4 (Sikario8,

Korlash

, aioqwe, TylerJ)

lordy

v4- 5 (Sikario8, aioqwe, TylerJ, Rishi,

JDodge

)
*Note this is similar to the panzer wagon above and will not count separately in tallies.


Man this is freaking hard to read with all the replacements. Things to note, Korlash had the largest wagon with no confirmed townies on it which included Tobi's predecessor, pwayne's predecessor, TylerJ and Sikario's predecessor.

Number of wagon's per player:
shaft.ed=2
pwayne66=2 (entirely predecessor)
Rishi=

4

Tobi=1 (predecessor)
TylerJ=

4

Sikario=

4

(mostly predecessor's play)
Claus=2 (entirely predecessor)
Dasquain=2
aioqwe=1 only the mislynch

Numbers are out of 6 total bandwagons

[shaft.ed]

That seems like a somewhat arbitrary set of information. Where are you going with it?

Ha, I was hoping it wouldn't be arbitrary. It ended up pretty much so, but didn't want to waste the effort by not posting. Guess that might have been the better option.

[shaft.ed]

OK my list is as follows:

Sikario, I have to say I believe his Doc claim less today than yesterday, but it's still a death claim and thus not likely a scum tactic. Not worth a lynch, but may make room for 5 protown players and not 4 in subsequent analysis. I won't include him further as he should not be a lynch candidate today.

pwayne66:

I feel his playstyle is similar to mine earlier in the game. He is quick to point out flaws in people's arguments. I do feel he is being rather non-commital in regards to actions against people.

Tylerj:

I thought he was town being run up by scum during his wagon. I am getting fairly solid town vibes from him and do not suspect him as scum at this moment. Also should be noted that four surviving players were a part of his wagon: Rishi, Dasq,

Claus

and

Sikario

.

italics indicates subsequent replacement

Dasquian:

I have some issues with Dasq's play. He was pretty adamant in getting a claim out of Tyler, but never made a case beyond "you just seem scummy." He also had an odd vote yesterday during the Rishi/Korlash exchange. He called them out for distancing, and then voted for Korlash. However, Korlash had no votes on him while Rishi did and it was clear that a wagon would not form in time. In addition, he had previously stated that he found Rishi scummy. It seemed odd to me that he would place his vote on Korlash if they were equally guilty of distancing and he had already mentioned suspicion of Rishi.

Claus:

GH posted very minimally but decently enough. Claus is pretty similar although today has not really gotten going. I have the worst read on him right now. Can't say one way or another.

aioqwe:

Felt he was too lurky early on. That's picked up a bit. Really didn't like his lordy vote especially given his very careful play preceeding. Not liking him much.

Rishi:

Every time I read Rishi first pass it makes me feel he is scum. But then when I reread his comments seem innocent enough. I really don't know why this is. I'm leaning him scummy but as I have been saying all day I can't really put a case up against him so I don't think I'll push his lynch today unless I notice something.

Tobiassen:

I think Tobiassen was the better choice for yesterday, but I guess him being active made him look more desirable to keep around than lordy. He seems to be trying to add content today, but some of his early actions are classic scum tells.

So if I had to make a scum/town list it'd be:
4 town: me, pwayne, TylerJ and either Claus/Rishi for different reasons.
4 scum: Claus/Rishi, Dasq, aioqwe, Tobiassen (most scummy to the right).

Also thinking further about the mass claim the most likely result would be having four cops and four townies claimed thus the scum keep their likelihood of being hit even. Only good thing about this is that once the scum find the cops they can't kill them because they will out themselves once the cops are killed off. However, this means they are free to take out one cop without much penalty. Need to run some numbers one such a scenario, but if we do mass claim and make a mistake today I think it will be very dangerous getting towards the end game.

[shaft.ed]

I would be happy to point out why I think Tobiassen is town if people would point to his scummy actions. If you want to refer me to a post that enumerated his scumtells that I happened to miss, that's fine too. But no one has made a case against him that I've seen.

I think Dasquain has already covered it, but I'll look back today for more inconsistancies of Tob if there's anything Dasq missed.

For an older analysis (mostly Max) here's my read from yesterday:

Max/Tobiassen:

Max lurked a lot and conflicted his statements a few times. Didn't like his play. In his first substance containing post he attacks CA for using bad logic to attack me and then himself attacks me for playstyle for "playstyle" (bad logic much?)*. He maintains his suspicions on me without ever substantiating anything, which I didn't like and he never really addressed. Has a quick suspicion of ckillor. Then FoS's panzer before leaving. Note that he never voted for anybody after the random stage, and his accusations are really all over the place. I don't know how he didn't get more attention before, but I guess the Tyler and Panzer incidents were distracting people. Tobiassen hasn't really added anything but soft core elf porn sicne replacing in for Max. So I'd really really like to here your thoughts on Max's play. But for now, I'd have to say Max is the scummiest player of my reread.

75

*

this section edited for coherence

I think I understand the desire to write Tob off as a newbie, but as I've stated before I've been burnt a couple times already by erratic newb scum.


One thing I find interesting about Rishi's read is his overabundance of pro-town players, having to add two players into the scum group that he finds to be townish. It might be a harsh interpretation, but if he has too many townies, perhaps it's because he is starting with one too few scum, that being himself.

[shaft.ed]

Now, next thing on my mind. I realize that this is purely gut feeling and thus has little relevence to it, but I can't help shake the idea that rishi and tob are scum buddies. Rishi, the way you adressed tob in your analysis hit my scumdar, And then, as I read further down, you continued to bring up tob, as if you were trying mask and cover up you two.

I agree with this. Rishi has been making quite an effort to diffuse Tob's play. I feel it has been a bit beyond normal defense.

[shaft.ed]

So any time a player defends another player, it's automatically scummy? Just because I put Tobiassen at the top of my "least scummy" list it goes beyond a normal defense? Someone has to be at the top.

It does when I consider Tobi to be scummy. Obviously, taken in isolation, I would rather lynch Tobi before you. I just have noted many occasions now where you are defending him. It's more the quantity than the quality.

[shaft.ed]

As far as lynching the claimed doc goes (not that I think it is to that yet), isn't he just as likely to save scum as he is to save a townie?

That may work for a single night, but what about after a scum lynch or a day or two down the road? I'm surprised you would make such a clearly anti-town statement.

[shaft.ed]

Okay. Go ahead and note those occasions for everyone.

OK full detailed list of Max/Tobi:Rishi links

First link:

Tyler -- You never responded to these points by Max. You're leaving your options open by calling everyone and everything scummy.

Uses Max's argument to get Tyler to post a list of players he sees as town, and goes after Tyler for not doing so.

I find Max the most suspicious, but I won't vote for him just yet.

unvote. FoS: Max

What good does an FoS do at this point? Max has no votes on him and there's no danger of him being immediately lynched.

I often don't like the FoS at this stage of the game. It's too wishy-washy.

Here he is attacking Tyler for going after Max. Granted his explanation is sound in asking why an FoS and not a vote. ChronX/lordy later calls him out on this.
Here is his reply to the ChronX/lordy statement:

*imagines what Rishi would have said if Tyler had voted for Max.

or if he had voted for someone else.*

If he had voted for Max, I would probably say nothing. I'm not super-suspicious of Max, but I understand why someone would vote for him.

Note that it is again slightly protective of Max.

Rishi's first assessment of Tobi's play "style"

I don't like the way that Tobiassen is acting. That "clueless newbie" thing is usually a ploy, in my experience. However, I read some of the other game that Tobiassen was in and he didn't play much better. By the way, Tobiassen, I would strongly recommend playing a newbie game.

Seems fair enough.

Not directly related but:

I'm baffled why Tobiassen would vote for someone who most of us agree is probably the doctor.

I still can't tell if he's really clueless or just pretending to be clueless. His vote is harmless for now, but I would hate to have him alive in an endgame situation.

I also don't like how TylerJ just reiterated other people's opinions and made an opportunistic vote on lordy.

Gah...

so much scummy behavior and only one vote

. I hate to not take a definitive stance, but I am going to hold my vote and see how this develops. I also don't want lordy to get a couple more quick votes.

Unvote

(bolding mine) Note how he lists two non-lordy players and says so much scummy behavior and keep in mind where his vote ultimately ended up. Also interesting that at this time he is lumping Tobi's play with Tylers as scummy.

Now shifting to a more 'harmless' viewpoint

I still don't know what to do about Tobiassen. He is a wild card, but he seems harmless to me.

Mild instruction:

How to make yourself not worthless:
Post less. Say more.

Outright defending against Dasquain's questions:

Does that mean that you think Tobiassen is more likely to be town than scum? If so, why?

I do. He's playing like a clueless newbie. If he was a clueless scum newbie, he'd be clueless while following other people's suspicions and voting for the person most likely to get lynched (in this case, lordy).

More guidance:

hmm, who said that sikario8 is the doc?

the mod or was it just a vibe?

Fine Dasq, You want a claim. I'm doctor and I'm dead tonight. There is no day 2. And GH and Chronx are scum. And Dasq is probably too but I'm not positive.

Sikario8 replaces Panzerjager. There has been no counterclaim and so we believe the claim.

By the way, didn't you already know that Sikario8 was the doc? To wit:

damn, gl Korlash. rereading this is a mess.
I gave up and voted for ze doctor ^^,

and btw, i dont think Alaska is a real place.

Again. Post less. Say more. I think you should try to restrict yourself to one post a day. Believe me, it would help you out a great deal.

Interesting to note here that it seems as though Rishi is calling out Tobi for pretending not to know who the Doc was. However, a closer read to Tobi's post shows he knew who was supposed to be the Doc but didn't seem to remember why so this could be false distancing.

Indirect reasoning for his wanting to lynch lordy vs. Tobi. Note that he never really explains his lordy revote.

And, if we're going to deadline lynch, I'd rather lynch a lurker-ish player than an active one.

Here he feeds into Tobi's question, could be interpretated as an attempt to draw attention away from Tobi's conflicting JDodge statements:

i where certain JDodge where a scum,
dont look like good mafia tacs in my eyes, to kill some scummy looking people i mean.

This isn't a normal setup, though. If the Mafia thought JDodge looked scummy, maybe they killed him hoping to take out someone from the other Mafia team. Remember, they need to eliminate both the townies and the other Mafia team to win.

Latest assessment of Tobi:

Tobiassen - I know that he's annoying and not helpful, but I am feeling that he is strongly town. I have played in a few newbie games, and I know how really bad players act as scum. I just don't see it. I think people might be piling on him because he's an easy target.

This one was overboard in my opinion (bolding mine):

I would be happy to point out why I think Tobiassen is town if people would point to his scummy actions

. If you want to refer me to a post that enumerated his scumtells that I happened to miss, that's fine too. But no one has made a case against him that I've seen.

He's going to write Tobi's defense for him now?


To me this seems like a pretty strong link. It's also interesting that he would take such a contrasting stance to Tyler who was also called a newbish player that was actually bandwagoned (which included Rishi). But when it comes to Tobi who is actually dropping scum tells, he gets defensive even though the most votes Tobi has ever had on him is two (maybe three if you count his self vote).

I also think rereading Rishi (again) has let me notice a few scummy trends piling up.
-His contrasting stance on Tyler and Tobi
-His unexplained lordy vote and involvement on three wagons against this player.
-His complete anti-town stance on Doc counterclaiming at the end of yesterday.
-And finally I had forgotten about his touchiness following this interaction with me yesterday:

I just wanted to say that I found Rishi's assessments a bit off, and will address that with my next contentful post.

This is another reason I don't like listmaking. If you actually give opinions on things, then people will find all sorts of reasons to find you scummy. Would you prefer a bland, content-neutral assessment of the players in the game? You have plenty of those to look at.

I have no problem with you making a list, in fact I appreciate the effort. I find people that are completely against making them to be scummy because they won't go on record. And just because I disagree with your assessment doesn't mean I'm going to think your scum. Such disagreements can lead to discussion about said persons alegiance which is a good thing. You seem a bit touchy about my comment that I didn't agree with you. There's not a word about you being scummy up there.

And if I have plenty of bland content-neurtral assessments, why am I described as an agressive townie on your list? Would you care to demonstrate these assessments of mine, or continue fabricating discussion topics?

My mistake. You are right that you did not implicate me. You just said that you had a disagreement with the assessments. I guess I got a bit touchy after what ChronX said, which reeked of OMGUS to me.

My impression is that you are an aggressive player. I'll pull some quotes out when I get a chance.

\

I think this warrants a re-organization of my scum town list:

town: me, pwayne, Tyler, Claus (simply by default)
scum: Dasq, aioqwe, Rishi, Tobi
^most towny to the left, most scummy to the right^

And I think there is a likelihood of Rishi and Tobi being paired.

[shaft.ed]

shaft.ed - Some of those quotes are pro-Tobiassen and some are anti-Tobiassen. There's 36 pages in this game. I would wager that, if you picked any random two players, you'll find all sorts of "connections" between them.

Also, you can't simply place me at the top of your scumlist for defending a player, until you know the alignment of the player that I'm defending.

Please note the bottom of my previous post where I give reasons for adding you to my scumlist. I didn't say you are scum only if and because I think Tobi is scum. And I will take you up on your wager for two random players later this afternoon.

Original Roll String: 2d9

2 9-Sided Dice: (4, 1) = 5

[shaft.ed]

town: me, pwayne, Tyler, Claus (simply by default)
scum: Dasq, aioqwe, Rishi, Tobi
^most towny to the left, most scummy to the right^

where does sikario fit in here?

For now I believe Sikario's claim. I have said repeatedly that a Doc claim is suicide in this game and I think Sik only survived the night because scum didn't want to overlap. Based on his play alone he'd be in the scum group however, between Dasq and aioqwe.

[shaft.ed]

As I have stated since yesterday, I am OK with a Tob lynch. I could also settle for a Rishi or aoiqwe lynch, but it looks like Tob may have enough momentum. However, I would like to hear more from aoiqwe and Claus before the day ends so I'm not in a rush for Tob to swing.

So aioqwe and Claus, how do you feel about a Tob lynch do you have other preferences?


On an aside, I'd like to point out that pwayne is getting by again without much in the way of solid convictions. The only lynch he's talked about is that of the claimed Doc, on multiple occasions. So pwayne you have a scum list, are you comfortable with any of those players being lynched at the moment?

[shaft.ed]

Another quality post from Tobiassen.

I still think he is head and shoulders above the best play for today. I also agree with shaft.ed that Rishi is a likely scum partner for him, but I don't want to go there until we've actually lynched Tob and found him to be scum.

In fact once we get to that point, it's not clear that we'd want to outright eliminate one mafia group anyway

(and we might not even get that choice depending on NKs).

I know this is putting two carts before the horse, but this course of action seems flawed to me. If the town can remove a killing block from the game that seems to be very largely to there advantage.

[shaft.ed]

+Rish had suspicions of ckillor. If these carried over to korlash, Rishi's train of thought would be getting rid of one of the other team or potential troublesome townie. Regardless, korlash seems like a good choice for him

I think the majority of us had suspicions of ckillor.

[shaft.ed]

i gotta keep you around, shaft; you're really good at this. how long have you been playing mafia...?

looks at profile

it says Aug 15 2007 so a little over 3 months.
And buddying up to players just makes you look more scummy

[shaft.ed]

I know this is putting two carts before the horse, but this course of action seems flawed to me. If the town can remove a killing block from the game that seems to be very largely to there advantage.

Not if it would put us instantly in LYLO! I don't want to discuss all the various possibilities at this point given the decision-making is in the hands of the scum, but I'm sure there are some circumstances in which it's not a good idea to finish off one scum group while another continues killing.

By the time (and if!) we have to make that decision, the situation would be clearer anyway.

Well I think it's pretty clear now. The only way that Rishi is going to be lynched

because of

Tobi connections is if Tobi is lynched today and comes up scum. This gives us:
5:2:1 going into tonight.
So wcs from this is 3:2:1 then lynching Rishi would give us 3:2 going into nightphase if he is in fact Tobi's partner which is town loss. So you are correct under this one circumstance it is in the town's interest not to lynch Rishi.

But the day could open at 4:2:1 with an overlapping kill or Doc protect, 4:1:1 or 4:2:0 with crosskills or bcs 5:1:0 with a double cross kill. With both of the 0 scenarios assume Rishi was crosskilled so we have 4:2:1 and 4:1:1 with strong Rishi connections. Lynching him and coming up scum would put is in 4:2:0 (LYLO but better than alternatives IMO) or 4:1:0. Lynching him and coming up town would give us 3:2:1 going into night (likely town loss barring incredible luck) or 3:1:1 (prisoner's dilemma barring cross kills). And all of this is assuming we lynch Tobi AND he comes up scum, not certain by any means at this point.

So yeah you're right there may be situations where, if they are paired it'd be better to not lynch, but we'll pretty obviously know that at the time. So I promise not to discuss it further until it's immediately relevant. I just found the comment a little bit strange.

[shaft.ed]

Lynching him and coming up town would give us 3:2:1 going into night (likely town loss barring incredible luck) or 3:1:1 (prisoner's dilemma barring cross kills).

[shaft.ed]

OK, Rishi I see your play as an indicator against you being aligned with Tobi. Bus'ing your scummate in this game is quite dangerous especially considering the situation you are in. I still think you are linked but less certain than before.

In regards to Tobi, I myself am ready to hammer, his weird crap with the Rishi/Dasq voting is just more confusion. He is clearly playing antitown and I suspect his alignment is as such. I would ask however that no one drop the hammer until we hear a bit more from aoiqwe since he's said he's busy with exams for a bit. I feel he has especially flown under the radar today and would like to hear more before it comes to an end.

However, what I really don't like is how shaft.ed is trying to set me up for a lynch tomorrow. Yes, he is making qualified statements, but it seems as though, if Tobiassen is lynched today, turns up scum, and if I am alive tomorrow, he's trying to lead the town down a path towards lynching me...

If you want to look town, worry about today's lynch and not tomorrow's

.

I've been pushing for Tobi's lynch since he was Max and I think he was the right play yesterday on D1. You maintained a vote on lordy because "no better bandwagon" was apparent. Today I have also stated that I think Tobi is the best lynch and, given the votes thus far logged, I am almost certain he will swing today. I thus think that it is in our best interest to find other scum candidates and since we are working at just under %50 chance there are good odds of finding more. If the town is lucky we might influence a scum crosskill. Since I am operating under the premise that Tobi is scum, I think it makes sense to find possible links to him in order to weed out his partner.

[shaft.ed]

Oh, by the way, I think Tobiassen should claim.

We can discuss whether we should do any counterclaiming afterwards (but we probably shouldn't).

I don't think I will take Tob's claim with much weight, so I really don't care what he claims.

touche. I think the majority of us thought that Korlash was less scummy ckillor. I think it's plausible that someone still found Korlash scummy.

Good point. I wasn't in game for Korlash's actual posting, but he did come across protown to me in a reread. And one of ckillor's major faults was lurking which Korlash is physically incapable of doing.

Like rishi said, whatever you adds further evidence to the fact that you are tob's partner. I'm not voting yet because shaft wants to hear more from me, is this satisfying?

Sorry this might have gotten confused in translation, but are you saying Tobi is my partner and I've been trying to get him lynched since mid D1? And yes thanks for posting I think you've added a couple insights to the game.

[shaft.ed]

Oh, by the way, I think Tobiassen should claim.

We can discuss whether we should do any counterclaiming afterwards (but we probably shouldn't).

I don't think I will take Tob's claim with much weight, so I really don't care what he claims.

I agree, but if he's a cop (and we find out that he's really a cop after he dies), we'll want his Night 1 investigation result.

Good point

[shaft.ed]

Claus, i couldn't help but notice you post in the MD forum talking about "what to do with scummy newbies." You mentioned that you will usually "just jump on the bandwagon." So what is it about Tobi that makes you think he is a newb and not scum?

[shaft.ed]

Tobi, I saw you browsing the thread. If you're claiming legitimately it shouldn't take that long. I certainly think your buying time indicates your need to fabricate a claim.

[shaft.ed]

@claus-

Why is aioqwe "surely scum". Am I missing a case on aioqwe?

QFT. Claus you do a massive reread and state that aoiqwe is sure scum, but don't make a case for it. I'm at a loss as to why that would be.

And in regards to the MD. I'm a regular reader/poster. If I didn't I might sign up for too many games when mine are slow

[shaft.ed]

Tobi's active lurking should be duly noted. He was making all sorts of nonsensical contributions to the thread for quite some time many times a day, and now that he's been asked for a claim he's suddenly not interested in putting anything down in thread anymore. This further cements my opinion that he is scum, trying to avoid a lynch. But since the possibility of him being the world's worst cop does exist I won't hammer.

[shaft.ed]

Claus, I pretty much agree with your assessments. I just find Tobi's behavior scummier than aioqwe's. The main point against aioqwe is really his flip (really a non-flip with a vote) on lordy. As you point out in 120 he's arguing that JDodge and Chronx/lordy are just townies arguing, then he says at deadline bascially "WTH vote lordy" after a day of very cautious play. That's really what gets to me. Your adding fuel to the fire angle is noted, I'll reread and see if I agree.

As for the Tob Rishi connection, I think it is real but thanks for this meta information:

I have seen Rishi making similar comments to other newbies in other games.

Rishi, do you happen to remember any of these, and how the alignments of the newbies turned out (links to a couple would be awesome)

I still think Tobi is the play for today. He is playing scummy as well as newbish and now totally avoiding a claim although I've seen him log in and check the thread multiple times since the claim request.

[shaft.ed]

SSF I know you autoprod, but has Tobi been prodded yet? He's basically the star of the show right now.

[shaft.ed]

Well Tobi's avoidance has me pretty convinced he's scum. Also if he is a cop he would have been pushing a guilty, and he hasn't puched anyone the entire game. Innocents won't mean anything unless we figure out which cop he was which will take the other cop hitting a mafia and us lynching said mafia. And this still won't clear the person investigated 100%.

In sum, I am OK with a hammer now. But I understand the problem. If anyone wanted to give feedback on whether or not a hammer would be OK with them I'd appreciate it. I do know I'll be kicking myself the rest of the game if Tobi were to come up cop though and we hammer prematurely.

[shaft.ed]

I don't want to see a hammer yet. Or rather, I

do

but it's the wrong play. We wait for Tobi to come back and claim + info, or wait for a replacement to come in and claim + info. It's tedious but it's the right thing to do.

Yeah I guess you're right. It looks like I need to get into more games.

[shaft.ed]

Yes, but I really don't want to submit another player to the 30 page ordeal of D1 all over again.

Time to move on with the game.

Unvote. Vote Tobiassen

I'll get you tomorrow, Aioqwe

I can't say I'm incredibly upset with you as I don't think Tobi is going to come up cop (time will tell) but I have to say your vote is quite remarkable given that you had just made a case against someone else and stated you didn't think Tobi was scum.

[shaft.ed]

Wow, that's not good. So we're at 3:2:1 now. That means we should be avoiding Tobi's partner as lynching him endgames the town.

I'm looking at aioqwe/Dasq or aioqwe/Claus for Team B pairing. I'm going to reread with those connections in mind.

Also mass claim time?

[shaft.ed]

Hm.

A mass-claim is almost certainly the right thing to do now, but we need to think it through a bit before charging in with the claims. Also, everyone should realise that the one person we

cannot

afford to lynch is Tobi's partner, who I strongly suspect is Rishi.

No lynch

may

also be the right move, given the known setup and possibility of cop clears, though I haven't thought through the maths on that one either.

This rings all sorts of scummy with me. I don't know what slowing down the mass claim would do other than allow scum to get their wits about them. And cop clears are not going to work unless our living cop has a guilty and we remove Tobi's partner which will put us in end game.

I think No Lynch will require Mafia A to cross-kill Mafia B tonight in order for us to have any chance of winning. So this is also very bad.

I suggest we vote on who to start the claiming. With this post I'm definitely not liking Dasq.

claim:Dasq

[shaft.ed]

Oh and, preferred claim order: Rishi, aioqwe, shaft.ed, Claus, TylerJ.

So you feel like you shouldn't have to claim?

Also, no one should set the entire claim order. Too easy to manipulate.

I endorse this product or service.

And I think it's called popcorn claiming where the first person is "elected" and then it works in a pass it on fashion.

[shaft.ed]

did we decide on majority of claim votes or just the person with the most after everyone has weighed in?

[shaft.ed]

God this is painful, but for once I'm not going to post any significant content when I really really want to. We definitely need to wait for Tyler before discussing anything at this point.

And Claus I see where you came off suspecting me after my run down of claiming outcomes, it looks a lot worse when someone else is doing it

[shaft.ed]

Sorry to slow things down guys, but I'll likely not be posting over the weekend as usual. I have a lot of thoughts to get out and don't want to rush them, but if I see the popcorn claim has come my way I will try to hop on to get my role in and pass on the potato so I can at least facilitate that if it gets started.

[shaft.ed]

I'm a Townie

Pass to Claus

[shaft.ed]

I don't think it is likely that the remaining Mafia A would risk claiming cop. So I guess the fake cop must be from mafia B.

I'll re-read Dasquian and Tyler.

I've got to agree with this sentiment. Mafia A has to remain undetectable to Mafia B throughout today's lynch and tonights NK in order to have any remote chance of winning. Putting themselves into the cop group would give Mafia B a clear path to follow.

That being said I think the correct strategy here is to lynch from the cop pool. Reasons being that if we lynch correctly we get a confirmed innocent, which the mafia will not kill and who has investigative powers. If we lynch incorrectly we at least set up one assured cross-kill, which, if the assumption that Mafia A didn't take on the cop claim is correct, will at the very least ensure us a prisoner's dilemma tommorow.

Here's a numerical breakdown on lynching from the cop pool:

Mafia B claimed cop (67%):

Lynch mafia = 3:1:1 going into night (50%)

Mafia double crosskill = 3:0:0 = town win (6.3%)
Single crosskil = 2:1 = LYLO (37.5%)
No crosskill = 2:1:1 or 1:1:1 = prisoner's dilemma (56.3%)

Lynch town = 2:2:1 going into night (50%)

Mafia double crosskill = 2:1 = LYLO (25%)
Mafia single crosskill = 1:1:1 = prisoner's dilemma (75%)
No crosskill = 0% probability

Mafia A claimed cop (33%):

Lynch mafia = 3:3 going into night (50%)

Automatic town loss

Lynch town = 2:2:1 going into night (50%)

Mafia double crosskill = 2:1 LYLO (25%)
Mafia single crosskill = 2:2 Town loss (75%)
No crosskill = 0% probability

Summary from Mafia B claimed cop:

Town win: 3.2%
LYLO: 31.3%
Prisoner's dilemmma: 65.7%
Automatic loss: 0%

Summary from Mafia A claimed cop:

Town win: 0%
LYLO: 12.5%
Prisoner's dilemmma: 0%
Automatic loss: 87.5%

Total Summary:

Town win: 1.6%
LYLO: 21.9%
Prisoner's dilemmma: 32.9%
Automatic loss: 43.8%

As you can see this plan works quite well on the assumption that Mafia didn't claim cop so that's an important point of discussion. As mentioned above, it's a pretty poor strategy for them to do so but not totally out of the question. If this is the case I'd find it highly more likely that Tyler were mafia A as he would have been forced into the claim in order to maintain his 50% chance of not being detected. If Dasq were Mafia A it'd be odd for him to start the claim chain with such a move. Also Tobi has now come up scum, and I still feel Rishi has the strongest ties to him and thus is most likely to be the remaining mafia A candidate.

[shaft.ed]

OK I will now address the cop claims. If either of you have left any breadcrumbs I'd like to see them.

I'd have to say I'm believing Tyler much more. In fact I've noticed a couple Cop tells from Tyler during the course of the game and would have found him scummy had he not claimed Cop. I'm a little surprised that he pulled a Sikario and didn't investigate N1. It should be noted that he may be attempting to copy this tactic to make him look "townish" as in 'mafia wouldn't lie like that would they?' (Sidebar this should be noted in regards to putting Night Phases over major holidays).

In regards to Dasq, I seriously don't understand his night choices. He said D1 Tobi was most scummy, in fact he voted for him and pushed for his lynch. Then D2 he was a major player in pushing the case against Tobi. Yet why didn't he investigate Tobi N1? And he rarely (if ever) mentions JDodge as scum except in pairing with pwayne. Rishi seems to be his second most scummy player along with ckillor. This JDodge investigation just isn't adding up to me.

FoS Dasq

Right now I think I'd lean towards a Dasq lynch. Unless someone finds flaws with lynching from the Cop pool as a whole.

[shaft.ed]

Dasq and Tyler what do you think about lynching eachother?

[shaft.ed]

So Dasq is answering the questions right while Tyler has been setting up the cop claim since early D1. This seems to be a tough call.

I can see Mafia B running a gambit whereby they agree with a Cop pool lynch, but I can't see Mafia A doing so. Thus I think we can rule out Mafia A for Dasq. Also I don't know how bad a spot pushing a lynch against the "known" cop (at least to a fake claimer) would be. Sure it will out him for the NK, but his partner is assured to survive the night. If they think they have a read on Mafia A it's not such a bad play. WCS for Mafia B here would be a prisoner's dilemma, but without a confirmed townie while BCS would be LYLO if they manage to crosskill. And pushing against the lynch would be quite risky as it would make him more likely to look scum and thus get killed while creating a confirmed townie with investigation powers. Seems the correct play may be to go with the flow.

Tyler on the other hand seems to not even know what's going on. But he's been setting up a cop claim since early D1. So he's either scum trying very hard to look like he's not paying attention while being very careful about planting cop tells, or he's a cop planting tells and not paying very much attention. I think this calls for a meta to see how much interest Tyler usually gives his games.

In sum as of now although Tyler's recent answers have been a bit off, I'm not sure if he's really not the cop. I agree with Claus that Dasq was scummier early game. Also I highly doubt Dasq is Mafia A so he might be the safer lynch if we are concerned Mafia A would claim cop.

Need to think on this one.


Also as of now I see the likely scum possibilities as:
Mafia A: Rishi
Mafia B: If Tyler - Claus
Mafia B: If Dasq - Aioqwe

But I need to do a reread to see if these connections are granted.

[shaft.ed]

Whoops I noticed my numbers above were wrong in that I weighted Mafia A and B claiming cop evenly even though its twice as likely Mafia B claimed cop since there are two of them, should read:

Summary from Mafia B claimed cop:

Town win: 3.2%
LYLO: 31.3%
Prisoner's dilemmma: 65.7%
Automatic loss: 0%

Summary from Mafia A claimed cop:

Town win: 0%
LYLO: 12.5%
Prisoner's dilemmma: 0%
Automatic loss: 87.5%

Total Summary:

Town win: 2.1%
LYLO: 25%
Prisoner's dilemmma: 43.8%
Automatic loss: 29.2%

[shaft.ed]

Claus, you were pushing hard for a case on aioqwe yesterday. I found the case a bid odd because Tyler's play has been pretty similar, yet you rated Tyler with the highest town rating and aioqwe wth the highest scum rating. Now today you seem to have backed off of aioqwe. Any reason for not pushing him today?

I'm still at a loss as to which of the claimed cops is which. Dasq is doing a very good job of looking like the cop of the moment, while Tyler did a very good job of looking like the cop of the game.

I'll ask again for any breadcrumbs either of you might have left behind.

[shaft.ed]

OK just finished rereading Tyler and I have to say during D1 he comes off very town and pretty obviously a powerrole trying to hide. Dasq is the one throwing pressure around that lead to the outing of a Doc and possibly nearly outed a Cop.

But this last answer is just sooooo bad from Tyler:

A bad idea. I wouldn't mind lynching Dasq of course, but to kill a cop will kill the game for us. I would vote for dasq but it is up to the town to decipher which one is the actual cop.

First of all killing the cop won't end the game for us because it assures a mafia cross-kill which means, at the very least, we'll be in a prisoner's dilemma. Also seeing as the likelihood of us needing a cop at all tommorow is 25% (if we lynch from the cop pool) There's no way you can saying killing the cop will kill the game for us. Finally, from your perspective it's not up to the town to decipher which one is the actual cop, YOU ALREADY KNOW THAT.

Man you guys are making this a hard choice.

Rishi & aioqwe your limited contributions are noted. While aioqwe has been lurky throughout, Rishi has been posting rather well. I feel your lack of contribution to this game but maintained contribution to other games is indicative of you sitting back to wait for a consensus to form. Please add in your opinions.

I'll try to get a Dasq reread in but not sure how soon that will be.

[shaft.ed]

aioqwe, the reason the lynching town leaves 0% probability of no crosskill is because the other claimed cop has to be mafia, thus there has to be a crosskill. That's the advantage of lynching one of the claimed cops.

I haven't made up my mind yet as which cop is more scummy. Just wanted to point out tho IF dasq is the scum he's just taking tyler's innocent on rishi and jdodge's death post. IF tyler is scum he probably pulled Rishi out of the blue. That being said, suspicion leans to dasq. I feel looking for connections is more affirmative...

It really doesn't matter what the results are because we don't even know which flavor cop is still alive. They could literally make up anything they want and it won't look fake to anyone in the game unless it is a Mafia A faking innocent and guilty results on the two members of Team B.

I've still got a lot to go for my Dasq reread. Right now I'm finding him more cop-ish, but this is all based on his answers to a few recent questions. However, I do think on the off chance Mafia A claimed Cop Dasq is way more likely not to be Mafia A than Tyler so he'd be the "safe" lynch.

[shaft.ed]

Just curious how many other people have noticed Tyler's cop tells and for how long have they noticed them for?

[shaft.ed]

Also Rishi why are you avoiding this thread? This is the second day I have seen you post in multiple other games yet this thread gets no attention. Given the situation I'd suspect you would be very interested in what is happening.

[shaft.ed]

it's possible that both scum groups will target the cop (too dangerous to let him get another investigation).

Huh. If that's not a blatant attempt to dig yourself out of the hole you're in tonight, I don't know what is. Regardless of whether I or Tyler get lynched today, there is no way scum can afford not to cross-kill - a scum who doesn't cross-kill is going to be facing enemy scum in a very, very small end-game, drastically increasing the chances of a mutually fatal shoot-out.

You're scum and you're cornered. Two down, one to go. My money's still on aioqwe.

I've got to agree with Dasq wholeheartedly here. Most likely result of today is a prisoner's dilemma, cop will have no bearing on that. But given that I think Rishi is A it doesn't really help me much on who Dasq may be.

[shaft.ed]

I'm still going to take some time to read up on this decision. I'm fairly certain now that the possible scum scenarios are:
Rishi=A
If Dasq B then aioqwe B
If Tyler B then Claus B

I'm finding Claus to be playing quite townie today, so this links to Tyler who is not behaving so townie today, but seems to have a better history for being a Cop.

Haven't gotten a good read on aioqwe today but was finding him as possible mafia ever since his unreasoned lordy vote. Since he pairs with Dasq who I really had no suspicion of being a Cop until his claim this looks bad for Dasq. Also Dasq is certainly the least likely of either to be Mafia A so he is definitely the safer cop to vote for.

I think I'm leaning towards the Dasq vote barring any major relevations of my reread, but I'm not going to rush this. I'm sure there won't be a lot going on over the Holidays anyway.

[shaft.ed]

Let me see the person I want to vote for will be put at L-1, therefore if I'm wrong Tyler can be hammered ending the days discussion.

Yesterday I really really really wanted to hammer Tobi, but was beaten to it by Claus.

Where's your vote btw?

[shaft.ed]

OK I think I've made up my mind for the day, but I need to get a better read on aioqwe before this thing goes to night.

[shaft.ed]

Yeah there's absolutely no need to know what aioqwe's alignment is [/sarcasm]

The optimal play for today is to identify all three mafia, and lynch one of the mafia B team. The remaining mafia will be forced to kill each other to get an end-game they have a decent shot of winning. Failing that, if we lynch town than we have a chance of a win at end-game but depend on mafia A killing one of mafia B.

Either way we need to not only try for a mafia-B-lynch today, but make sure that the remaining scum are pretty certain on who each other are and therefore finish each other off in the night.

We need to influence the scum as much as possible today in order to achieve cross-kills. I'm not happy with how fast the votes have gone down today. And Aioqwe has posted almost nothing today except Helpful advice to mafia on how to claim, and a mis-calculation of my numbers to make it look like lynching a cop was not a great idea. Both plays decidedly anti-town. However I have seen hardly anything on how he stands toward the other players in this game, I would seriously like to get more information from him going into night because a) it may help scum target the proper player and b) there is a reasonable mathematical chance that we will be in LYLO tommorow and any extra information for the town going into that will be helpful.

[shaft.ed]

Helpful advice to mafia on how to claim

You posted claim outcomes. I posted speculation on possible claim outcomes. I never posted 'advice'. So, how is my post significantly more anti-town?

Sorry, I think it was more that you were saying "If they claim Mafia A they won't be lynched." That seemed more out of the realm of normal outcomes since it was something that I don't think they would have thought of. But running through the scenario a bit more I wish they had claimed A, if they were telling the truth they'd be NK'd and if they were lying, Mafia A would have likely NK'd them. Doesn't seem you meant this as a trap though.

and a mis-calculation of my numbers to make it look like lynching a cop was not a great idea.

Misinterpretation of cross-kills. I was assuming purely random play whereas you assumed the mafia would cross kill fake cop. I'm all for lynching out of the cop pool.

I didn't notice you stating whether you were with the idea of a cop lynch. That's part of the reason I wanted to hear more from you.

BTW, shaft, what's your evidence for Claus/tyler and me/dasq? What do you see that relates the 2 in each pair?

Another reason I want to hear more from you. You're basically put there as the only open spot. I have the strongest read on Rishi so he's got my Mafia A position. Then we know Tyler and Dasq can't be aligned, and that you and Claus can't be aligned. I'm placing Claus and Tyler together because of Claus' vote on Dasq, the fact that he has previously stated that Dasq is scummy and the fact that he's been consistent about having Tyler in his pro-town slot from what I can remember. So this means there are Tyler-Claus links and Claus-Dasq separations. Since Claus is placed where he is and Rishi is likely A then you end up paired with Dasq. But I have recently be noticing Rishi-Dasq connections, so it is possible that you are the remaining mafia A and Rishi pairs with Dasq.

[shaft.ed]

I'm finding Claus to be playing quite townie today, so this links to Tyler who is not behaving so townie today, but seems to have a better history for being a Cop.

O.O I'm acting more townie today? I don't think I'm acting at all differently than when I did yesterday. Could you elaborate on that?

First I did have you listed on my border between town and scum yesterday, primarily because I couldn't get a good read. And I think you were looking more townie towards the days end as you were actively creating new evidence.

In regards to today, I very much doubt you're Mafia A, however you may have hammered yesterday for distancing seeing as Tobi's lynch was inevitable. It may also explain why you weren't worried about him being a cop (though I doubt any of us would have thought as such). Then assuming your not Mafia A here as Rishi and Aioqwe are both more likely in my book, you're then either town or Mafia B. Mafia B being likely to have split between Cop and Town would very much like to not lynch from the cop pool since it gaurantees oen of their players will not survive the night. But you were the first to bring up this idea. So if I don't think you're Mafia A and you're proposing a strategy that's not in Mafia B's best interest you are looking much more townie in my eyes. I suppose I should add that on the off chance that Mafia A is in the cop pool and the town is lucky enough not to lynch him today you would be my top candidate for Mafia B.

The link Claus-Tyler is very easy to make. Afterall, since yesterday I'm saying that Dasq is scummy, and since only one of Dasq-Tyler is scum, if I'm going to push for Dasq, I'll end up defending Tyler.

I addressed the very basic interactions above in my reply to aioqwe. While they are superficial I think they are also valid.

On one hand, those are a very naive links, I think you wouldn't run so fast towards them. On the other hand, if you are the remaining Mafia B, you may be trying to guide mafia A away from you, by setting these "shut" cases of "Dasquian scum = Aioqwe Partner", "Tyler scum = Claus Partner".

I guess I can understand you not wanting these contigencies cases, but that's how I view the game for the most part. If you wanted a rundown of scumminess in the townie pool I'd rank them Rishi > aioqwe > Claus. If you want connections I think Rishi has the strongest links to Dasq, aioqwe seems to have neutral links (which some say indicates scum avoidance of eachother) and Claus has negative connections. I haven't quite finished getting Tyler interactions but Claus seems most tied to Tyler, not sure yet about Rishi and aioqwe.

[shaft.ed]

aioqwe I would certainly admit connections with Tyler. When his bandwagon was building the majority of the people on it said the reason was "he just seems scummy" which = total BS. Then once he's pressured he starts dropping power role tells and later in the game he dropped a couple cop tells. From early D2 on I've been pretty confident he was a Cop. Just wish he would have answered questions a little better today or I would be much more confident I'm placing my vote in the right place. Anyway I think we've got everyone on record. Hopefully the night works out in our favor.

vote: Dasquain

[shaft.ed]

You mean which question was I answering?

Rather, shaft, who posted comments in regards to tyler's guilt never placed a vote.

Rishi still is my main candidate for maf A. I'm looking for further evidence for tyler/shaft, or a good candidate to partner with dasq...

[shaft.ed]

OK I think aioqwe is setting up a false dilemma. He's saying that he's pretty certain that he know's of the town pool me and Rishi are both mafia, in fact he seems pretty sure that Rishi is A and I am B. So picking the scum cop is simply a matter of which is most closely tied to me since I'm obviously mafia B (note that this is news to me, I don't remember him ever making a case against me, in fact you haven't really mentioned me as scum except for one post where you say I'm scum hunting well and have "the other team" in parenthases). So therefore, even though you state that you find Dasq more scummy than Tyler, you vote for Tyler because he has stronger links to me who you think is scum although you haven't even made a case for it. Actually you've only very lightly tied me to Tyler, have you even looked into connections between me and Dasq yet? You may remember that we both voted for Tobi end of D1. And we were pretty much on the same page most of D2. I don't see how the Tyler link is all that much stronger than the Dasq link. Yet you base your vote for Tyler on this slim difference ignoring who you state is "more scummy" (sound like distancing much?).

Now even ignoring these conflictions, you still have another problem. If you are sure that Rishi is A and I am B the lynch doesn't matter all that much. This is becuase:

If Tyler is B and my partner then you lynch Tyler:

Go into night 3:1:1 me and Rishi cross kill, town wins.

IF Tyler is B and my partner then you lynch Dasq:

Got into night 2:1:1, Rishi kills Tyler, I kill Rishi, you and Claus survive the night to lynch me tommorow, town wins.

I'm pretty sure now that we have found the mafia B pair in Dasq/aioqwe.

[shaft.ed]

Wow that's a big surprise. I was really hoping for the three of us to be alive today, but figured it would be a Mafia double cross-kill and town win. Well played Claus.

Tyler, please take your time and be certain of your decision before voting. Claus and I are obviously going to vote for one another, and you as the confirmed townie have to decide the game, hopefully your investigation will help.

I don't have time for a really in-depth post right now, will get one up tommorow. But looking back on it, it's pretty clear that Claus was bus'ing his partner with that hammer out of nowhere on D2. He made a careful case against aioqwe, but realizing that Tobi was going to be lynched he dropped the hammer even against the town's wishes to be sure he wouldn't be linked. Also explains why he wasn't afraid of Tobi coming up cop.

Anyway, take your time Tyler and if you have questions please ask. I'll get a detailed analysis of Claus up tommorow.

vote: Claus

[shaft.ed]

Haven't finished my Claus reread, but I did get through Groinhammer who he repleaced during the Night Phase of N1.

Conveniently, GH disappeared well before the days end so there's no information in regards to the Lordy lynch. But he was on both the Tyler and the Panzer/Sikario bandwagons. Here's his reasoning for the Tyler vote:

Dasquian, I think that if I were actually mafia, I would be sure of myself, not unsure. Just a thought...

You seem abit too aware of this so I'm not taking genuine newb-ness as real - think I could do worse than

unvote, vote: TylerJ

And then a couple posts later this weird comment from GH:

I'm feeling sorry for TylerJ so

unvote

...however, my reasoning (as page2 reasoning goes) stands so

vote: TylerJ

incase anyone missed it

.

Both votes were the second onto the Tyler wagon. What's weird is that the second "in case you missed it vote" was on the exact same page as the first so it's not likely people skipped over it. The "revote" seemed to move Dasquain onto the wagon.

So after helping drive that wagon that almost outs a Cop, he feels the need to get on the wagon the does out the Doc. He was the fourth vote of five on Panzer and his vote was memorable because one of his lines of reasoning was the Panzer changed his avatar for sympathy.

I can't find any major connections between Max and GH. GH called Max out for poor accusations against me and pulling his vote off of ckillor at the time the Tyler wagon was mounting. Max didn't make any comments towards GH. Max was replaced by Tobi the same day as GH's last post so they did not interact at all.

I'll look into Tobi/Claus interactions in a later post.

[shaft.ed]

Crap! I was gone during the 27th through 30th. Man. Okay, I will get a reread on both of you soon.

I truly hope that doesn't mean you missed another investigation.

[shaft.ed]

Wow that was over a lot faster than I had expected. Thanks for saving me the time to reread Claus Tobi interactions.

[shaft.ed]

I felt bad for the town on this one. The only chance you guys had at winning was aioqwe's NK and Tyler's vote. I seriously was trying to cross-kill but have realized I'm just a really really bad scum-hunter. I hope that I will never be given a vig role any time soon.

Right on Dasquian, shaft.ed and Tobiassen.

I CALL THAT A VICTORY!

Too bad tyler screwed it up

That's why you had to die. I'm surprised no one looked over your posts when you came up dead. But you were wrong about ckillor, pwayne, lordy and Tyler.

I forget when I was convinced that shaft.ed was scum, but it felt somewhat obvious to me after a while. I think I was the only one who was onto aioqwe since Day 1.

I was pretty sure you would know I was scum since I had been framing you the entire game . The problem was I had to keep you alive in order for it to be worth the trouble, thankfully aioqwe took the bait. I was really worried after this post

OK I think I've made up my mind for the day, but I need to get a better read on aioqwe before this thing goes to night.

Why? He's not in danger of being lynched and, as a claimed vanilla townie, you have no night action. If he is killed during the night, then you won't need a read on him.

Are you scum? Is this why you need the information?

Heh... congratulations Shaft.ed. You played well. I also hoped I would have the time to make a case against you.

But aren't you even a little bit ashamed of letting Tobi Win with you?

I was also hoping there might be a bit of back and forth. Was really surprised that Tyler decided so fast since I had a very pro-town view of you. And I know the case would have been pretty good against me if Tyler believed the bus'ing. And yeah that's why I had to kill Tobi. You should have let me hammer, I would have been more satisfied and you wouldn't have had that connection to him.

[shaft.ed]

Tyler thanks. I had been buddying up to you since D1 and I just got really lucky that the end game turned out with the players it did.

Also SSF I forgot to thank you for the great modding job. Thanks for keeping it going with the hiccupy start and all of the replacements. And thanks replacements for helping out.