Newbie 1010 (Game Over)

[Civil Scum]

/confitrm

[Civil Scum]

As your IC, I can honestly say that I do not know. Theres nothing wrong with posting at this point, though its possible that whatever you do (voting and otherwise) will not count.

[Civil Scum]

Unless you really wanna vote someone

[Civil Scum]

vote: ups

Fos: nevermind

Cause Ups is the mafia goon, and Nevermind is the roleblocker!

Just kidding, I do not have super-powers.I am not more likely to be town or more likely to be scum than anyone else. People claim, and it is possible, that newer players tend to believe that pro-town sounding IC's are townies more often than not. But the role selection is random (or is supposed to be). All it means is that I have played a certain number of games on Mafiascum. Questions and stuff about how to do things, or certain situations that arise in the course of the game I'll do my best to answer or explain. But yeah, sorry, no super-powers

Welcome to the game and have fun!

[Civil Scum]

Razgriz, gotta use zee bold tags for voting or the mod is 99% likely not to count it

[Civil Scum]

Welcome Chaim. I'm glad that vote didn't count ...
I'm all Civil this game I assure you.

He's a bit more experienced according to the boards...

What do you mean, "according to the boards" ?
What boards?

...therefore he can play "Town" a lot easier then others

I would like to disagree with you on this point. It maybe relatively common that Ic's get "automatic town points" because of
their IC status. But a completely green player could have a natural aptitude for the game, or could be a good liar or faker.
And some people are terrible liars who could play 20 games and still be bad at playing scum. I think it's more of a player by player basis.
If I were playing with someone irl, for example, and thought they were very good, I'd find myself watching them
a little more closely than usual. But that's a person by person basis, and not based on number of games played. You're already
planning to treat/observe me closer based on my status...

That said, I do consider myself a decent player ^^

Not sure how I feel about your calling someone out for "avoiding lurking" ( x= posting ??) this early. You might be a little
over zealous in your accusations so early. And attemtping to fabricate evidence. Finger pointing straight away...

wait how did you know? cop doesn't have investigation yet, so you must be my partner!

vote: civil

Damn...well, we blew it.


Answers to Questions- Part 1:

-Personally, I prefer the RVS. The other accepted format is the Random-Question-Stage. I've been in a few games with the latter opening.
And while it does generate a lot posting and content, it doesn't seem to be as good at starting an F11.

-The Random-Voting-Stage generally ends by itself, in a way. I mean one player, or more, have to be becoming serious about a point
or accusation, or someone slips up, or whatever, but it's more of a natural progression (imo). People do often claim to have been the one
that ended the RVS. But it's still the RVS until multiple people (or the game itself) stop being random/silly.

-That would be a slow start! It's only a matter of time in my experience. ALthough that would be pretty dead if the RVS continued on and on.
SOmetimes player's chat and joke around for a few pages. But sooner or later, someone's gonna go, 'Hey so-and-so, that was a really WEIRD joke.'

-I've never been in a game where one person got a lot of votes in the RVS. Although I've read games where people got sent to L-1 with random
votes by the second page. Imo, there is no maximum. But expect raised eyebrows from me if you're the third to jump on.

-Here, you've answered your own question? If you mean the question in terms of "can a human being really behave randomly", I'm sure
there has been an enormous amount of interesting discussion on that in scientific literature. I believe it's generally accpeted that,
whatever means are used, or whatever joke/reason accompanies the vote, a person's random vote is, for all intents and purposes, random.
Even if no one placed a second vote on anyone else during the first voting, especially with the last two players to vote,
who one way or another (or by all appearances)

chose

to vote for someone who didn't have a vote yet, rather than voting for someone who already had a vote,
there's not much useful information that can be taken away from that "choice", or that hesitation to place the second/third vote. There's plenty of
reasons why both a scum and a townie might avoid doing that. There's no statistics supporting the idea that a scum would avoid BW'ing that early more than a townie
would. And even if there were statistics, it'd soon be null because its a simple controlled behavior that people could manipulate
too easily.

(All views expressed herein reflect the opinions and views of it's author, and in no way represent -true- reality)

Part 2: The End

Sorry about the length here, especially when we may have some interesting developments here.


IC comment:

Yes, the timing was off as your large post in which you voted came out 2 minutes before mine, and I was not aware that it existed when I clicked submit.

Simultaneous post. Usually, in this event, a person begins their next post with "SIMUL:"
To clarify that they hadnt seen the post before their's when they posted, and to clear up any of the misunderstanding or confusion that
can result from simultaneous posting. It happens more frequently in games than one might think.

What if no one reacts to anything? - Make a reaction, I guess. Perhaps by starting a bandwagon and gauging reactions, but it really shouldn't get to that point.

I really liked this answer. Actively provoking a response from people is a fairly common tactic used to considerable effect by many players.

...lynching people without proper evidence building is anti-town.

Though I think its excusable in cases of extreme frustration, this is also definitely true.

That line sounds to me like you want to appear to be scumhunting, without actually taking a stand. That type of passive play is weak for town.

I can definitely see where you are coming from on this. Neil's answer was satisfactory for me.



Alright Neil, since you've spoken out and spoken up, you are getting attention, and will cerainly get more:

All of these votes in such a short time... it seems like that'd be the mafia's goal right? To try and get a lynch going on us and try to take us out...

It's not really much of a risk at this stage of the game.

Now I don't want to flat-out say that this next quote of your's contradicts the first, but...

Alright, I'll follow this method just so that we can start eliminating people...

You take efforts to sound cautious and watchful, yet do at the same time come off as kinda trigger-happy. I'd even go so far as to say that it's a little
dishonest of you to accuse Ups of being inconsistent. Becasue I feel that you've gone both ways, on a sprint, passing between the two opposites
(by accusing him of a contradiction you are implying those behaviors are opposite) almost instantaneously. Sure you werent voting, but you have been the most serious
in your accusations thus far. The random votes get discussion going, they are not intended to lynch someone. Just because you random vote someone, doesnt mean
you want to kill them at this point. In fact, I would expect a townie player to understand that or to feel that way automatically. A scum could miss that...
Later in the game, a vote usually is more of a "kill someone" or pressure them to defend themselves from getting hung. But just about every other player in unusual there,
brand new players included, if you asked them if they wanted to kill the person they put their random vote on, they would probably say "no." Right?
I think its a rather unusual perspective for the situation. This quote above alone, is highly unusual.

if you're interested in targeting me so be it, but please get your story correct.

Are you trying to not be defensive or trying to sound non-chalant about being targeted this early?



And hearing from everyone is essential. Sure, lynching people is great and it has to be done. But prefferably with some level of care and the fewest errors.
We get two misses (unless we have a doctor who pulls off two successful protections) and then we are at Lynch-or-Lose. Two misses and then if one of the remaining townies
places one wrong vote or makes one mistake, or is manipulated into making one mistake, we lose.


Yoenit, Spadille, Silver Bullet, steeeeeel waitin
Sorry about the length, wasnt supposed to happen.

[Civil Scum]

You might be overzelous and reaching in trying to accuse people, or you might be hyper-suspicious of everybody. I'm not sure which way I'm leaning yet. Help me neil

[Civil Scum]

Questions:
- What is forum policy with regards to quoting other posts and length and stuff

I don't believe there is one. You can quote as many posts as you'd like. You can quote the entirety of someone's giant post, and work inside out. I had a person do this to 3 of mine once. There's no maximum length as far as I know.

- What do L-1, L-2 and L-3 mean?

L-1 is when someone is one vote away from being lynched. L-2 means a person is two votes from being lynched. So, right now any player would be at L-1 if they were to get 4 votes.

unvote: Ups

Glad everybody seems to be in. I should definitely take another look at some of the posts so far.

[Civil Scum]

Neil: You've mentioned your preference about lynching non-contributors over someone who is actively participating. But I know you are aware that a person who is very active and posting frequently can easily be a scum in sheeps clothing... Also, no one here is lurking to any unforgivable degree, which I might agree with you if it came down to deadline and there were clear lurkers and clear participants. But, you've mentioned this preference of yours several times by now, in one way or another, and it makes me wonder if it isn't some sort of defensive thing, or aimed at self-preservation. Becasue you HAVE been very vocal so far... Waat I mean is that it's a little unseemly, because I would imagine that if you were not as active, the times you did pop in to say someting, you wouldn't have said each time that you would rather lynch a quieter player... It sounds like something you're proposing in self-interest. And the scum have much more self-interest...

As for the length of that, that's alright. Games played on a forum, so we must expect some reading will be required. And I know when you're getting questioned and accused from 4 different people, it can be difficult to feel like you've responded properly, without responding to EVERYTHING.

RazGriz's reasoning sounds pretty solid all around, but I agree that the reasons he had for placing Silverbullet at the top of the scum list were not very scummy behaviors.

[Civil Scum]

I'm really having trouble getting a read on Neil, and I don't want to get completely distracted and forget about everyone else.

Quickly though:

It's as if you're in a locked room with 7 people...

But Neil, don't you mean 9 people?

[Civil Scum]

Yoenit, Chaim and Nevermind: More quality in your posts please, thanks.

Just do your best! But don't lurk!

Still catching up on what everyone's up to. Ups, while there's not a good way to know yet whether you pointing at Neil while he indirectly defended you both was planned, or mutually understood on different terms... I can see where Spadille got the impression.

Though, in the mean time I'm going to

vote: Razgriz

for showing he has a good grasp of the game but then picking very unconvincing reasons to suspect someone, without voting.

[Civil Scum]

Fos: ups

I'm beginning to like the sound of Neil. He's definitely making much more sense in his later posts, which leads me to believe that when it came to much of the early game and RVS, he was not used to it, or was used to a different style of game.

[Civil Scum]

They be called "slips". And perhaps, lots of times they are nothing. But some people think they are silly, some people don't.

[Civil Scum]

I miscalculated the people in here by typing everyones name (except mine) on a list, and then when I wrote that I figured (okay, we have 8 people...

Did you do this as part of the generation of the theoretical comparison?


I feel like I'm being distracted from bad people...

[Civil Scum]

Should be caught up with a post by tonight. Immediately I'll say that I'm fairly conformtable with my vote on Razgriz at the moment.

[Civil Scum]

Some of this is old, but I might not have taken as close a look as I should have.

Don't like the answers that he gave to nevermind's Q's at all. If it was RVS all the time then that would be bad.

I know this has been discussed by both parties. But Silver's response to this question was very obviously a joke. Even if Razgriz missed it, the mental leaps
he makes in ascribing a really bad taste to Silver's answer, do not sit well with my taste.

Good reasoning, solid argument and clean thought. But I think you should look at the one who turned off the lights first.

I would also like to know what you meant here.

I have no desire to argue with you

Any argument with a good subject is a healthy debate. This is important, especially in scum hunting.

You saw a team between us questioning each other?

This quote by Neil makes me think he is town. Though I wouldn't be thinking that as much if I knew how many times he really had played the game, or had
a sense of his play prior to this. It's either a very quick recognition of the situation, or genuine 'What are you talking about Spad? He's
after me!'

Early in that part of the game, you and ups were the active players. Your point is not to pick those who are active, so I sensed something strange and a team-up which you might have planned (Mafia QuickTopic)

I'd said before that I could see where Spadille was coming from with this. That is to say, after he mentioned, I could understand feeling
that way about Neil's and Up's interaction. But I don't think I would have read their action like that on my own, before he mentioned it from that angle.
So it does seem to me like he's reaching a little or attemtping to read too much into it.

But, you've mentioned this preference of yours several times by now, in one way or another, and it makes me wonder if it isn't some sort of defensive thing, or aimed at self-preservation

In my theory, team preservation.

It would have been fairly easy for them to plan this sort of thing. But it doesn't seem too overly-orchaestrated. And I trust for the time,
that Ups was honest when talking to Neil. That type of thing seems like it would be SUPER easy or almost automatic, but I wouldn't
try to pin that on two people unless their exchanges sounded forced or atleast one of them were coming off awkward with it. I think
it would be tougher to do that type of early distancing with the other player protecting both scum, to have that roll
out naturally would be tougher than you would expect. Especially for someone playing their first game on MS.
I would expect the mafia more to have a general strategy and agree to play it by ear in this game. I expect that atm anyways.
I'm actually beginning to think that Ups & Neil is a rather unlikely pair. Of course, if they did plan it out, then they have succeded..

My interpretation of that aside, I dislike how strongly Spadille states this here, with this sentence. While buddying (a little) and after talking about
it to some degree (almost seeming like he's trying to "over-give" the statement credibility). In other words, I could see how someone could feel like it could have been a little conspiracy between
them, but I'm not sure I can see how someone would believe it, or use it as a stand alone in really suspecting someone.

You're completely right on this one.

Meaning, Silver is right. You are a scum? If not, enlighten me please.

Here, Spadille missing what he was talking about seems to indicate less than a serious or involved read-through, the kind that
townies have to make to throw out suspicions they honestly believe.

I'm confident that I'm a good contributer so too lose somebody like me in a game I was in, I'd be disappointed.

Yeah well, if you are scum then the town needs to get rid of you :/

I like myself

Lol, that made me laugh. In a positive way though.

Throughout this entire post of Spadille's he has this sort of "xxxxx, BUT" issues
with Neil's comments, with no basis or solid reason.


This point, counter point, -positive- then -negative- way of commenting on neil's posts seems very out of place to me. There's only a few reasons
I can think of for Spadille to be responding to him like that.



Nevermind: I like your Post 98 restating Neil's play so far. While some of his posts have been a bit over the top, I agree with your
read.

@Razgriz:

That's a good content post. Though I have to wonder why you haven't pressured silverbullet more, with a vote for example, even though you had a scum read on him.

I thought this was a good observation.


[Aside] Neil was somewhat making a target of himself. I'm surprised that we didn't have even the start of a real BW on him. A little surprised we haven't had one
on any player yet.


Post 132:

Oh and don't mind if I'll "lurk" a little. I am just viewing each and every detail.

Immediately after post 131, also by Spadille. Now, I certainly have nothing against posting multiple times in succession. I know that
often I think of something I forgot to say, or something else which occured to me, or something to add after thinking about it.
But to come back after 11 minutes and add this...well, that's just a downright odd thing to come back and add. It almost seems as
if he nagged himself into coming back to say this. A little too self-aware perhaps... I can't tell if it's some sort of sarcastic joke.
He hasn't seemed that sarcastic up to now, or if it was in direct reference to something he has been seriously accused of, becuase it doesn't look like it.

Spadille: Your post 136. While it shows good effort, and shows you're keeping up (which can be hard), this post, the quotes and your points, are wandering...
um...freely. Were you coming to any point with this post? Because I think focusing on points and quotes, without having a relatively solid notion
of an involvement with, or an opinion of, the material, is a scum tell.


Vincouschaim: Post 138. I think it can depend on the player. Sometimes I don't like being scum, it seems like a burden to have to lie and make
shit up all game, irl too. I can be excited while being a townie. SOmetimes though, I really don't like being scum. You do though.
I think he could be the type of person who got excited by a town role, there's no evidence or meta that would support the claim that he's
like you or unlike you in that regard, so I think it's a null-tell. He also could just be excited to be playing the game. Some people really
just love the game.

Okay, shoot, reading further to the end of the thread, I see you've retracted the vote on that reason pretty quickly, which a
new scum might hesitate to do so, for fear of looking wishy washy. Which you state openly, but at the same time appear to be trying
to make what you think is the right decision.

Yoenit has been the most lurkish player so far, but I'm getting the most bad vibes from Razfriz and Spadille.
We don't really know what's going on with Yoenit right now, and I'd very much like him to try to post more often, but it
seems like a very easy vote for Razgriz to make at this point. Added to his hesitation to vote Silverbullet after naming him
his number one scum read... Could be something.

Fixed a tag.

[Civil Scum]

And there was a quote-tag-monstrosity

[Civil Scum]

That's how ya do it right there

[Civil Scum]

Fixed a tag.

Much thanks

[Civil Scum]

BW's are not bad in and of themselves. Especially if they are on a scum...

Raz: Aren't you BW'ing the lurker , presently?

Mod: Can we get a gentle little "cattle" prod on Yoenit?

I have no problem pressuring Yoenit to get him to post, but theres no reason to auto-lynch him. It's still early, and we know that Portuguese is his first language, so he may have been having some trouble keeping current or following some of this. He may also just be very busy.

-Also, we have other options, prods/replacements. Replacements are fairly common (at leasat one for every game I've played in the Newbie forum). It's by no means a "dead" or "dead-end" slot, and since we are nowhere near a deadline, we should hope that he picks up in activity or seeks replacement, rather than sending him to an early grave for his posting habits up to now.

I agree more with Neil than SIlver, that it's a little strange that he is on the forum often but not posting. But it would be worse if he were actively posting somewhere and playing in another game at the sametime.

[Civil Scum]

I guess I should probably do it this way...

@Mod: can we get a prod on Yoenit?

Will do it in the morning when his 72 hours are up.

[Civil Scum]

No. I can't control what happens on voting after I vote. I was the first to vote, and one or two others followed which then made it a bandwagon, which was caused by the peeps who decided to vote after me.

Well, no one can be certain that your intention was not to start a BW by being the first to vote...Also, this strikes me as a pretty dishonest representation of how votes work -Your actions are not without effect on the other players. They don't exist in a bubble. True, no one can accuse you of "hopping on the BW", but you ARE STILL ON IT. And you can definitely CAN control what happens afterwards.

I'm looking at Razgriz, Spadille, Vincius Chaim, Yoenit, in that order. Silver, Ups, and Nevermind are all tied after that.

[Civil Scum]

I don't want that neccesarily, Nevermind, but I would like people to notice how Razgriz is disgusing his voting.

I am glad that you've changed your vote from your random vote on me to a different "less than serious" (?) vote.

[Civil Scum]

what's their to disguise?

That's what I'm asking.

[Civil Scum]

Why do assume the best of Razgriz?

[Civil Scum]

Neil: I meant- "Why do -you- [Nevermind] assume the best of Razgriz?"
Cause by dismissing my point, while attacking Silver for something tangentially related, it seemed that he was assuming the best of Razgriz.

Could you please quote... lovely neil... where I am attempting to downplay my vote?

I think he has confused you with Razgriz. It was Razgriz who was downplaying his vote.

[Civil Scum]

SIMUL:

three more people hopped on and hammered Raz, did I say I take no responsibility and it was beyond my control?

Yes, that's what I meant about Raz, that he does have some control about the votes after, and the "ensuing" band-wagon. Cause you can always unvote...

I agree that Nevermind is accumulating point at an alarming rate...

[Civil Scum]

...when you try to disguise your vote like that by claiming because you were the first to post, you therefore would have no part to play in the bandwagon lynching of Raz (if it got to that point), that just seems super scummy to me.

It is scummy. 'Cept, it twas Razgriz that said this sort of thing (almost exaclty) about his vote for Yoenit (who now has 3 ---> a bandwagon). Regardless of the order of votes, I'd say you're bandwagoning if you are a voter. If you're comfortable with being one of the 3 people voting him, then (unless you are wary and overly-cautious) you should be fairly comfortable with being the third person to vote. It's not exactly the same decision, but it's not as disimiliar as Razgriz would like us to believe.

If this is the case...
Neil I want another oops I'm wrong and silver's right.

Hehe

[Civil Scum]

In scanning a few ISO's quickly, I'd like to note that Raz, Spadille, and Nevermind have almost totally steered clear of each other this game. They have hardly mentioned each other's names. Razgriz's SINGLE mention of Nevermind was including him on his list as a neutral read, with a brief explanation. That's it. Nevermind hadn't spoken about Spadille or Razgriz until just recently on this page, but mostly as incidental to his strange attack on Silver.

While it's not exactly kosher to speculate in depth about pairings and teams until you have one real dead scum body, and while Chaim, Spadille, ESPECIALLY Yoenit don't have a lot of posts to look at so far, I'm going to go ahead and tentatively call the scums 2 of Spad, Raz, and Nevermind.

[Civil Scum]

I think that Nevermind and Raz may be more guilty of that than Spadille. Focusing and only speaking about the more active/prominent players is an indicator that someone is only following what's happeneing, and not formulating or experiencing suspicions of their own.

[Civil Scum]

...don't worry about me, I'm sure I am the person you should worry the least

Hmmm, but he can be worried that you're one of the people who has a vote on him.

Especially with "[your] only argument [being] [Yoenit's] inactivity."

Damn, Chaim's voting and unvoting is strange. And I could see a case being made for Ups. I hope we can begin narrowing things down before deadline.

[Civil Scum]

In your post 206, you sound like you are suspect of Yoenit. In post 208 it doesn't sound like you are suspect of him, anymore?

[Civil Scum]

Your probabilities might have been added up wrong. There's x number of permutations with Raz and you frist and second, and there's n=total numer of permutations possible.
x/n=probability raz would be first and you second.

I think the odds of that arrangement are actually about 1.4% I also think it is unreasonable and overly paranoid. It's based on Raz attacking you for being the "most contributing" player. But the length of your posts in the beginning of the game was not recognizable yet, and I can't see Raz's vote for you as anything other than random.

Razgriz: Neil's accusation concerning your random-vote list is pretty spurious. Pure conjecture and essentially baseless as far as I can tell.

But

, how is paranoia a scum tell?

[Civil Scum]

Sup Olinea. Nice avatar! haha

Interesting catch here in 243. I'm gonna have to look at the circumstances under which he made both comments.

But I have to do this:

unvote

vote: Nevermind

Was that BW discussion thing really the best you could come up with so far? Come on... I know you've played a bit. I especially didn't like it casue it involved completely ignoring
Silver's scum hunting efforts. (Which is excusable if you really thought he was scum, but suddenly voting, on a basis like that, could you really believe such an accusation yourself?)
I also especiialy didn't appreciate it cause you ignored what a couple people think was Razgriz dodging an accusation by misrepresenting and down playing his voting.

Add to this, this fine little tidbit here: Nevermind wrote in another game- "I've played as a mafia roleblocker in an F11 before, and as mafia I just defended townies if they were being attacked by a lot of people..."

You were kind enough to be the first to acquit Neil on his early suspicion-magnetism and general strangeness. And although you didn't outright defend Razgriz here, you went a totally different direction than anything anyone else was talking about. Which is great when you're thinking independantly and figuring things out for yourself...but when the reasoning you attach to do this is so weak and out of place, then it aint such a good thing to rocket off elsewhere.

Also add again how bad a mid-day reason that was to vote Silver, and how little you appear to be doing to try to find the scum.

I think I could accuse you of lurking on pretty reasonable grounds as well.

[Civil Scum]

I feel a lot better about Spadille's slot and am liking the sound of Olinea. Solid reasonable contributions, appears to be looking evenly at everyone.

Well, I know this isn't much of a case, and I can't expect for many people to get behind this. But I have a horrible feeling about Nevermind based on his meta.

And I am beginning to think that Vincius Chaim doesn't believe himself.

...but other people look like more scum... and now Oli, accusing everybody like a blind-shooter in the middle of the dark...

Accusing someone of being scummy and comparing them to a "blind-shooter in the dark" are two completely incompatible ideas.

[Civil Scum]

Silver: I also read Olinea's post with your same initial interpretation. In fact, I do think it was pretty clear that that was the correct reading. He looks to have back tracked a little...which is interesting to me since I was fairly suspicious of Spadille before he left us.

I would like to point out that in the other Newbie game he has played, in about the first 3-real days, nevermind managed to post about 75 times. This is day-7 of this game, and he's only posted a third of that. In other words, he was 6 times more active in his last newbie game than he is in this one, out of the gate. He finished that game with 174 posts.

He also sounds quite about different. In ways I'll explain and breakdown later when I have more time.

I think Nevermind and Olinea are a nice fit, and I also don't want to forget about Ups, though I have a slight town read on him.

[Civil Scum]

The curse where he appears to have contradicted himself, and gone back and changed what he meant. I thought that was pretty obvious.

He was doing fine til then.

I await your breakdown of his (and perhaps my) statements and claims.

Nah that's for Nevermind's meta. I was suspicious of Spadille for a couple reasons. Unfortunately they all required some follow up for me to have placed much faith in them., and he's no longer with us. It would be rather ineffective for me to question you about them at this point.

[Civil Scum]

When Olinea said "Yeah, that's what I said." That's when I had the reaction, 'No you didn't'. But that phrase, albeit mis-phrased and mis-stated if this is the case, can be read with a "shouldn't" in it. It's the rest of the post which is vague and would seem to contradict that, if it's the case that's what he was trying to say.

Olinea: Alright, so, I think I get it... I think...

[Civil Scum]

Come on you guys, play nice... just kidding, play however you want No references to people's mother's though, that is the only rule
on the wiki page. [joke]

Vincius: "False" maybe, or "contrived", or "polly-doodled?"

Alright, so you may have used a word that changed what you were trying to convey. But was there any reason you decided to take Raz's claim that Neil was selectively quoting, or twisting his words at face value? Why would you accept that as soon as Raz said it? Surely, if you noticed it, and wanted to make up your mind, you could do that yourself. Especially before using it as a reason to vote...

Townies don't take "leaps" to try and make someone look scum "to back up their suspicion."

My point, but well put.

I dunno. I;m not gonna pull a I'm a noob card because that is cheap.
I will say this though: I should've idk why, but I won't now since yeonit is deadbeating

Also a good quote here. This is actually really suspicious. He even calls the noob-card for him 'cheap' in
this situation. I definitely missed that.

If you have suspicions over someone, compared to someone who just isn't being active at the moment... why on earth would you change to vote for the man who isn't talking so really can't have a defense

Possibly because the suspicions weren't real.

I also noticed that the reasons Raz called Neil paranoid are different than the scummy paranoia Raz describes.

On a totally different tangent: Civil scum, could you formulate a case against Ups (or any other target of your choice). So far you have playing the role of benign IC flawlessly and everybody seems to think you are town. As you seem a little too clean, could you please come down here and start trowing mud at somebody?

I am fairly sure that I could not make a convincing argument for an Ups lynch because he has so little content.
Yes, generally, I can make a good push at getting just about anyone with content lynched... wait, that's not what you asked.
'Have played the role of benign IC...' -Well yes, I suppose I have.

To be honest, I don't have any reads this game that I feel really confident about. I've been looking at Raz for some time. If it
were a matter of merits only (strikes is more accurate), then I would be totally fine lynching Raz this second. If it
were just based on the did's and didnt's, and all the posts of his I haven't liked... but all in all, the sound of his posting inbetween
the scumminess doesn't sound scummy to me, and has been seriously throwing me off, especially knowing that he is 13. Assuming, might be more like it...

I guess what I mean, is that his responses (in tone) fit very well with different situations, even if he never pressured his
#1 scum-read for the last two pages :/

If I had to make the choice right now, I would probably vote for Nevermind or Vincius Chaim. But since we still have daylight left, I just assume let
Raz and Neil go at it a little while longer, even if they have both "rested their cases" haha. And like I said, I'm still plannign on
outlining my suspicions of Nevermind. But it's more a read thing and meta thing, which is tough to convince people with, unless
you pair it with a cop-claim.

You get some town points for questioning me like that.

So, you're saying that you would feel better about my alignment if I were more actively pursuing people?

[Civil Scum]

Ups and Nevermind are the two most inactive. Ups appears to be absent still.

[Civil Scum]

unvote

vote: Vincius Chaim

Was that better?

[Civil Scum]

As much as I like the case on Raz and suspect him quite a bit, it's suddenly become very obvious who I should be voting for.

[Civil Scum]

I guess before we lynch anybody, we should probably wait for Ups and Nevermind to come back.

[Civil Scum]

I feel like Raz and Vincius wanted to avoid having to do this for as longe as possible ^^ The honeymoon is OVER!

[Civil Scum]

I mentioned something in my Post 251 about Vincius that really bothered me. I'm not sure if "change of heart" is accurate.

My pair theory is mostly that they are the two most suspicious people.

I still am suspicious of Nevermind, but about half as much as I suspect Vincius.

[Civil Scum]

That seems like you'd be leading the town pretty badly, which as an IC isn't too excusable.

"Leading the town" is in no way something an IC is required to do.

1.)

civil, you must be experienced enough to realize what I'm doing

[b/]

, even if it's being a little wrong,

2.)

and you voted me just because I wasn't that confident till then?

1.) I assure you I have no idea what your are talking about.
2.) I never said that's a reason I was voting you.

Raz makes a whisper of an accusation against Neil for twisting the quotes to make up false evidence (which he did without any examples mind you) -> Vincius VOTES for Neil on the basis of this whisper without looking into it at all. You would certainly think that a true-blooded townie would at least make some sore of effort to look into such a claim, if they were really confused and trying to figure it out, especially before they used it as the sole basis for a new vote -> Asks for more -scum tell type stuff from Neil on Raz before he'd vote? Which is how I read it. = probably not town.

raz, how could silver be(in that time) your #1 if the only one I saw was you attacking neil("the paranoia" ;p), if I missed something, I'll re-read some pages when I have time

Right. I don't think you missed something. This is exactly what happened. This behavior from Raz is really scummy. Notice how Vincius doesn't mention this being scummy, or doesn't seem to be moving in the direction of reasoning why this could be scummy? I think that's odd. Vincius also seems to be more accurate and focused in his posting when it comes to Raz. (I'll find more of this later and explain it when I have the time).

Did anyone really suspect Spadille? The general consensus was that he was (is?) pro-town

I did, though the memory of that long forgotten day has faded. What a strange question... do you have a confession to make or something?

[Civil Scum]

But if he's town, and he's the most experienced, he SHOULD be leading.

Negative. He shouldn't be leading if he's clueless in a particular game. Not saying that I am clueless this game... after all I think I was involved in most of the early investigating of Raz. Also, this is not football.

Even if it were, if the most-experienced star-running back broke his leg, and wasn't going to be able to play well for that game, should the coaches have him keep running the ball anyways?


Are you trying to influence the replacement by voting right now?

[Civil Scum]

You're right, it's not the IC's job to lead... if he was scum.

Again, you seem to have a misguided understanding of the concept of an IC. It is not my job to lead or direct the town. It is not my job to step in and settle arguments between newbies. It is not my job to make fantastic arguments for every one of my opinions. It is not my job to make giant cases against my suspects. It is my job to say things like: "We don't lynch someone before giving them a chance to claim their role, for several good reasons."

[Civil Scum]

This is how you link a post, this is how you use the forum tags, etc.

[Civil Scum]

And, in general, don't be too disagreeable a charcter, and make reasonable attempt at "providing a good example of play." That's a little vague, but the IC wiki certainly doesn't tell the IC that they have to try and play like an all-star every game. And I have never encountered an IC who even remotely thought that was their responsibility. Cause it ain't. I'm just 1 of 9. I tried to say that at the beginning of the game.

[Civil Scum]

I'd rather not debate the role of an IC.

Also "disagreeable a character" means exactly what?

I'm not sure, its pretty vague. Though I interpret it loosely as meaning you shouldn't yell and swear at people, and tell them how stupid they are, etc.

[Civil Scum]

#218 & #297
first(218), he try apologizing with yoenit because of his vote(with lurking reasons), maybe trying to befriend him, getting a townie to his side, then(297) he tries to get a (slip) copclaim from yoenit, maybe to kill him during night

Here's a fine example of what I mentioned before. As soon as it comes to discussing Raz's behavior, Vincius comes up with very plausible reasoning and realistic suspicions. He hasn't really been able to do this when it comes to anyone else. And this can easily be explained by knowing before what Raz may be trying to do.

It is "interesting" that the two top suspects, as soon as they both came under scrutiny and each got more than a couple votes and/or Fos'es, immediately began arguing with each other, and quickly became each other's top suspects. Thats god damn INTERESTING.

My next 3 suspects would have to be Olinea, Silver (for being too buddy/friendly), and Neil. I think that Yoenit, Nevermind, and probably Catepillar are okay. But I really think that one of Raz and Vincius has to be scum (obviously I've been wrong before), and it seems quite possible to me at this point that they both are.


ANY discussion of power roles is considered bad-form. There just no reason for us to talk about it until after a claim, and in weighing the merits of such a claim. Speculating about the set-up, people's pr-role potential, and tyring to direct investiagtions or protections are widely considered "not kosher".

[Civil Scum]

And

vote: Vincius Chaim

Aw crap, I already am on the vote count

[Civil Scum]

I didn't say that I never thought it was funny, or that I disliked the tone and the humor, just that buddying can be a scum tell. Let's try not to get off topic here.

[Civil Scum]

I think if VC flips town somehow then the scum are likely to be Olinea and Nevermind, possibly Yoenit.

[Civil Scum]

Still, if you can get reads for a couple of other people, I'll take this off.

Mind explaining that?

[Civil Scum]

Couldn't he be a newbie townie, and not be able to do that? Or really be lost?

And him "rectifying" that would convince you he was town?

[Civil Scum]

As it is, people suspect him as scum

Yes, we do. You don't? Yet you're voting for him?

[Civil Scum]

You've "said" that you "do." Sounds like this deadline reason is something you just invented in order to pre-empt pressure for the vote you foresee in the future.

Just before you said this, you said VC being able to do that would convince you that he would be useful to the town, not that you wouldn't think he was scum. You see how those things are different?

[Civil Scum]

unvote

vote: Raz

Fos: Olinea

[Civil Scum]

I've got conditions to take it off. The ball's in his court.

Handing over responsibility for your vote to the person you're voting...

I see how they're different, yeah. But if I was 100% sure that he was scum I'd have put this up a long time ago.

Misleading. When did I (or anyone for the matter) say you have to be 100% sure about anything?

Civil, why exactly did you change your vote so sudden?

I'm uncomfortable with my vote on VC atm because Olinea's vote is backed by such suspicious reasons


Go Yoenit, Go for it!

[Civil Scum]

I'm still gonna wait on his reasons for calling me scum for putting VC at L-1 and then immediately taking his vote off of VC and putting Raz at L-1 without ANY explanation.

You're not supposed to speak your scum thinking out loud

[Civil Scum]

I would rather you focus on answering questions then posting fake encouragements like this.

Thats too bad

[Civil Scum]

I'm still gonna wait on his reasons for calling me scum for putting VC at L-1 and then immediately taking his vote off of VC and putting Raz at L-1 without ANY explanation.

Alsright, here's an explanation for you, and for everyone. Raz has been my number 1 suspect on and off. He has the most evidence against him. The other people voting him are some of my stronger town reads. I'd rather vote on the person with the most evidence against him, and the person that the people I think are townies are voting for, rather than leaving my vote and going along with people like Olinea, who appear to be just tacking their vote onto other peoples suspect.

Why wouldn't Olinea ask VC to do what he wanted before placing him at L-1? Ever wonder?

His only recent defense of himself is posting reasons to lynch Raz over him. There are two mafia, and so he should have more than one suspect. If he can only pull evidence against one person, it makes him a good lynch candidate.

Everything about thsi is off. Olinea obviously doesn't know what it's like to be a townie.

[Civil Scum]

unvote

TBH Yoenit, I haven't read most of that post yet, because I immediately read the part about my double voting for VC. Since you missed that that was obviously, and had to be, a joke or in jest, I doubted the perceptiveness that would exist in the rest of the post.

[Civil Scum]

[quote="Yoenit"]
Now all of a sudden Civil Scum seems to think Vinicius Chaim should not be at L-1, while he tried to put him there himself a few posts back. Instead he starts attacking Olinea for voting VC, using "he is just a newbie, he can't play the game very well yet" as a defense argument.
[/qutoe]
The only real reason I didn't like VC at L-1 was because of the way Olinea did it. And that didn't happen until just then.

[Civil Scum]

Yeah, I probably shoulda told him that scumhunting and picking people apart would get him townie points.

Giving someone townie points, and deciding that someone isn't scum, ain't the same thing. Not even close!

What were the scum points VC got, in your book, over the scum points that say, Raz, got? Why'd you chose VC and not Raz? Especially if you only think VC is scummy to the degree that he could get quickly get town points and get your vote off of him? Why didn't you even that request from him before you voted, and then given him time? Instead of putting him in an immediate lynch situation. You don't want to, or don't have to, or don't care to, hear what he has to say do you? Why not?


And actually, yeah you did give a misleading answer. You defended yourself against a point of mine on the basis that I was acuusing you of not being a 100% sure about something. Which was not implied in my post at all.

[Civil Scum]

Yoenit: If I were distracting from Raz and VC, to save (?) one of them, then that means I would have to be scum with one of them. Which makes sense that way, but it wouldn't make sense that those were the two people I either started pushes on, or encouraged pushing. Which doesn't make a lot of sense.

"Unless, well, unless this is what you all wanted us to think!"

[Civil Scum]

It makes me wonder if quite possibly, the town is going the completely wrong way and the REAL scum are just "passing" by.

Very nice, Neil. It is good to at least be aware.

I believe you stated that Raz is still the most suspicious person to you. Which makes me ask, then why did you take your vote off of him?

Raz asked this too I think. I was hoping it would be obvious. I have nothing to hide. So if you've followed my posts, it's obvious that maybe I'm considering voting Olinea first.

Also, Civil it'd be very unwise to not answer Yoenit's questions when Yoenit actually did bring up some excellent points.

No, that's my point. They are not "excellent."

All this "flipin", "floppin", "switchin", whatever words are used, one can assume that if I were scum I wouldn't do that because it'd attract attention, whereas if I'm a townie then I don't have to worry about it. "Unless, but...unless that's JUST what you want us to think!"

After Yoenit looks at it for a little, it will become obviously that all his points and concerns boil down to this. And if that theoretical type thing is all you have, then you don't have very much.

For example, he's accusing me of perhaps deflecting the vote from Raz to Vincius. What is that? Now, if VC filpped town, or worse for me, after Raz flips scum, then I'm in hot water, then he he really has something. Otherwise all this theoretical and assumed reasoning is just hypothetical and doesn't really "exist". It is indefensible, and once it is the primary basis for your case or your vote, you'll find that nothing can solve it, and you actually don't know anything.

[Civil Scum]

Did Caterpillar finish getting up to speed yet?

[Civil Scum]

If you act like a townie by scumhunting and defending yourself instead of rolling over and saying "I'm gonna get lynched, town is -1", I am inclined to believe to that you are townie.

Yet...you believed he was a scum before you offered him the chance to do this.

[Civil Scum]

Please read this quote from Olinea

The vote was placed because he analyzed only one person. As I keep saying, ferreting out one scum is helpful, but doesn't end the game. There are two of 'em out there, and if he can only get evidence against one, it shows he's holding back. There are still seven more people he could dissect. A "Top 1" list, in my book, isn't very useful because you're essentially saying "If we get one scum, we win".

Townies out there, ask yourself this question and see that Olinea is not on your team:

Is your vote not a "Top 1" list?

This is not correct, when I started writing the argument I thought VC was scum, but I later realized that would make no sense...

Does this finish '...if Civil is scum'?

In other words, me being scum is based on shit you don't know?

Nevermind: Only becasue you're an SE will I speak to you thusly -You are lurking like a mutha fucka.

[Civil Scum]

I believe everyone is a little bit scummy, as I have no way of knowing who is and who isn't.

Seriously then, why did you only toss out a couple things about everyone, and then choose to vote one of the town's two top suspects, instead of anyone else? Was that just coincidence?

Oh right...you were "worried about the deadline... which is ten days away" XD

[Civil Scum]

vote: Olinea

Using an attack, as if it was an actual defense. Oldest trick in the book brah...

[Civil Scum]

[you] put Raz at L-1 and claimed it was because he'd been your top suspect on and off. You know what that translates to? "Sometimes I think he is scum, sometims I think he is town".

That's somehow an unreasonable way for a townie to feel about another player?
You're such scum.

Civil, I'm begging you post something worthy of a defense against Oli, otherwise you're pushing the top of my list...

Then you're not paying good enough attention.

Once again, If you think that your vote is a Top-1 list, then vote Olinea. Otherwise ask yourself again.

[Civil Scum]

I'd like to know how Yoenit feels about Olinea piggy-backing and following his vote. Especially after Olinea basically said in Post 447, that he was going to wait for a while and then vote for me.

[Civil Scum]

I've payed enough attention to know that you still have yet to give a defense to the accusations thrown your way. All you've done is "vote" which isn't a defense even in the least bit. If I'm wrong, show me?

I've offered the form and structure of my defense against Yoenit's accusations. As for Olinea's, I'd rather wait on that until someone can explain how 'changing your mind' is scummy. Since Olinea placed the L-1 vote, and the manner in which he did it, it's only become more and more obvious to me that he's scum. As I mentioned earlier, this didn't happen until then, and at that point I was required to drastically reassess my view of this game.

If Olinea wants to claim that older posts like that contradict present posts, well, that's his own problem.

Changing your vote is not like naming someone your top suspect and then ignoring them for ten pages and then saying that they still might be your top suspect (as in the case of Raz). There's nothing inherently scummy about changing your mind.

Here is a quick grammar lesson Civil. "Once again" refers to a previous statement, in other words saying "I've told you this once, I'll tell you this again..."

Well, it did refer to a previous statement...so, nevermind.

"Turning the tables around to dodge the question."

I would call it a "point back". But it's definitely not WIFOM.

[Civil Scum]

Oh Olinea, jeez I almost forgot.

You didn't give me my homework. What's my thing that I have to do to provide you with the satisfation necessary to get your vote off me?

Or did you place VC at L-1 thinking he was way less scummier than me?

What's my thing that I have to do?

[Civil Scum]

You didn't give me my thing.

[Civil Scum]

Fine, here's your evidence: "You didn't think the same about people at two seperate points of the game. You're a liar! You're a liar!" (Nice argument btw)

[quote="Onlinea]
You want me to take my vote off of Chaim? You think there are better targets out there? That I shouldn't be throwing my vote around without evidence? Fine.

Unvote

Vote: Civil Scum

[/quote]
Wow. Blaming your suspects for your vote again I see.

Go ahead. Call it the biggest freakin' OMGUS you've ever seen.

Nah see, I understood (read between the lines) from your post 447, that you had every intention of voting for me, but you were going to wait until a more opportune moment. I though you might have waited longer, like for VC, and been more opportunistic. But I didn't realize how bad you wanted to get in on the ground floor of this one.

But you've been targetting me nonstop ever since I put Chaim at L-1, you attacked me for it, then put Raz at L-1 and claimed it was because he'd been your top suspect on and off. You know what that translates to? "Sometimes I think he is scum, sometims I think he is town". And wordy nothingness is a trick that only works on people who can't read in between the lines.

See brah, I already provided my defense of this, as it turns out, it was also an attack because that followed so simply from your post. So, once again, "sometimes thinking someone is scum and other times thinking they are town" or going back-and-forth on someone, is a PERFECTLY NORMAL WAY FOR A TOWNIE TO FEEL ABOUT SOMEONE. That you were unaware of that fact, suggested to me that you don't know whatr it's like to be a townie. I mean, when you read the game and caught up, you never read things from a player that made you think they were scummy, and then further down the road read something that made you question that, and think they might be town?

Oh, but I'm lying about it. You read between the lines and see that I'm lying... "You're a liar!" That's not an argument. Yoenit's argument is, "You're a scammer. You're running this little scam, plan thing of yours".

-I believe that Yoenit has good intentions and is genuine in his suspicion. Which is why I replied, "You only think that I am scamming."

-Olinea has less savory motives; I can tell he is being opportunistic and his suspicions and voting are contrived. Hence I replied, "I'm not lying, you're lying!"

There's some other defense available to me against "You're a liar!" ???????????????????????

[Civil Scum]

You are, once again, dealing with extremes, and assuming I put everyone on the exact same ground and don't suspect anyone above anyone else. That is a ridiculous way to play.

No, I just didn't see why it was VC that you should neccesarily find scummier than anyone else. And then I realized it was because he already had 3 votes.

TBH, now I'd say Olinea/Raz, Olinea/Caterpillar, or Olinea/Nevermind. The latter two are either asking people to do their job for them, or have yet to catch up with the game.

[Civil Scum]

I already told you brah, it wasn't about their posts in the mean time, it was about you being scum. So my reads changed almost instantaneously. Based on you, not them.

You're already done Olinea. Already done. You're already dead. Even if you get people to go along with it, you're still going to end up screwed. As soon as everyone sees that your whole case was nonsense AND wrong, it'll finally be obivous for them as well.

Can we get another prod on Nevermind, I don't think his last post should count.

[Civil Scum]

Prod on Nevermind, to make an actual post of some sort?

[Civil Scum]

First Civil flip flops on me and chaim, then just contradicts himself? I won't vote yet, but as soon as my homework is done I'll bring a case to the judge

There would be no reason for me to have done this, unless I was scum with either you or Chaim. I hope that isn't lost on everyone.

[Civil Scum]

No, Raz is confused and remembering things incorrectly

[Civil Scum]

Civil you contradicted yourself AGAIN. In a nutshell you said Yeonit's arguement is shit, but then you say that his suspicion is genuine?

That's not a contradiction.

[Civil Scum]

Raz, you're wrong about almost everything you said. I don't mean for you to take offense to it, but you are just talking about things a different way than they actually happened.

[Civil Scum]

I didn't attack you personally. I told you you were wrong. Which you are.

[Civil Scum]

Raz: I have no plans to defend myself against accusations which are based on an incorrect reading of the material.

[Civil Scum]

I never said Yoenit's argument was shit either. Wrong, wrong, any sort of positive comment or agreement is buddying, wrong, wrong... etc...

[Civil Scum]

1. I didn't say that his argument was shit.
2. There was no contradiction to speak of.

[Civil Scum]

After I defend my self against a point, it gets worse...

This really is frustrating. I don't care so much about the lynching, I'm just fed up with all the bad reasoning associated with it.

There is not a single valid point against me that I have not addressed. Yet I'm still "avoiding" everything.

[Civil Scum]

Olinea has obviously gone to some lengths to dig up these things before painting them black-and-white contradictions, without giving much thought to the individual posts. He also had done this when he found people's posts from when my head was turning around, and then presented them saying "That? That's what changed your mind?!" The tone and style of it makes it obvious to me that he's been looking around the game for things to make cases with, for ways to push a wagon. First VC's, then mine. And while, Olinea is doing a good job of this, a townies job is pressure people and lynch them (which requires some effort or "case-building" sometimes), but a townies sole job is not to find evidence and present it in the most vile way possible. When it's obvious you never considered the evidence for yourself, you just found it and used it.

Olinea, what would say to the accusation that you are just trying to get me lynched, you find and present your points only for that purpose?

Silver- The summary of Olinea's case is this: You contradicted yourself.
The summary of my defense is: I changed my mind, in large part due to your deplorable motives.

Neil, hurry back for the deadline, wouldja ???

[Civil Scum]

Well, here we go. Civil finally sees Neil as town because Neil both disagrees with my Chaim vote and with Yoenit's vote against you. Enemy of my enemy is my friend. Note to self: if you want Civil to think you're town, vote with him and attack those who vote for him.

Alright, I call BS on this. Anyways, that's not my point. This goes along with this.

My next 3 suspects would have to be Olinea, Silver (for being too buddy/friendly), and Neil.

Now, if we take a look at his top suspects...

This is slightly out of context, and Olinea's first quote is WIDE of the accuracy mark. Neil was the first person to receive any amount of concentrated scrutiny this game. Coming out of that, which I thought he did pretty well, he looked better for it, not worse. If you had paid a lot of attention cathcing up during your replacement (instead of rummaging through the thread looking for things to pin on people), then you would have seen that that's when I started leaning town on Neil. Long long before the Raz case and wagon. And just because you say "If VC is actually a townie, it's possible that X and Y are scum" DOES NOT, I repeat, DOES NOT run contrary to having town-reads on X and Y. Unless you trust your reads 100%. Which would be unwise to say the least.

Also, Olinea, you misrepresented that point rather harshly. Unless you can show where I said those were my "top 3 suspects."

And who am I most suspicious of right now? I sure contradicted myself there didn't I...

Another question for Olinea: Who are your strongest town-reads, and why?

[Civil Scum]

Yeah, I probably shoulda told him that scumhunting and picking people apart would get him townie points.

Giving someone townie points, and deciding that someone isn't scum, ain't the same thing. Not even close!

I don't know how you visualize it, Civil...

That's not something you "visualize", you "feel" it. Unless of course, you have to visualize feeling it.

Here's my top 3 suspects, pay attention, Post 404:

It is "interesting" that the two top suspects, as soon as they both came under scrutiny and each got more than a couple votes and/or Fos'es, immediately began arguing with each other, and quickly became each other's top suspects. Thats god damn INTERESTING.

My next 3 suspects would have to be Olinea, Silver (for being too buddy/friendly), and Neil. I think that Yoenit, Nevermind, and probably Catepillar are okay. But I really think that one of Raz and Vincius has to be scum (obviously I've been wrong before), and it seems quite possible to me at this point that they both are.

In the next Post, I re-vote VC. So "my next 3 suspects", were not my top suspects at the time, like Olinea is claiming with a torch and pitchfork, they were my 3th, 4th, and 5th. Still behind VC and Raz.

...Fabricate evidence much Olinea??? (If I were your attorney, I would advise you not to answer that.)

Same page, Post 412.

I think if VC flips town somehow then the scum are likely to be Olinea and Nevermind, possibly Yoenit.

After deciding that VC could very well be a townie, based on how scummy of a bad bunny Olinea was being, getting a town-flip out of VC no longer seemed to me to need to happen before this line of suspicion became a better possibility. Then I went after Olinea, and I called Nevermind out on his lurking to get more content from him...

There has never been a contradiction to speak of. Olinea has only chosen to present it that way.

[Civil Scum]

And your fabricating evidence?

[Civil Scum]

Where he calls me opportunistic after drawing fire to me and using it as cover to put Raz at L-1.

Allow me to punch some holes in your little boat of filthy lies and dirty tricks. I had some of the first real suspicion
of Raz and was his second most voocal opponent throughout the first half of this day. As such, I did not need a "cover", or any other
explanation beyond that to vote him. It was not only the opportunism of your vote, it was several things about what you said about it and how you did it.
These are scattered throughout my posts. I do not know why you give them a word like "a cover", or suggest that I only disliked your vote
for it's timing, you've clearly read my posts and know that's not really why I voted you. If anyone of the two of us put someone
at L-1 without an explanation, it was you.

Lets say that I am scum, under your "theory" Olinea which you dont even believe, and you and VC are not. Could you explain why the fuck
I would ever even say your name with things going that well? And why would I need a cover to vote anyone if a townie was already headed
for the gallows? Could you explain why I would leap from both of the top band wagons on townies, to start a different band wagon on a townie?
Especially after one of them just voted another one?

I dredged up posts where his scum reads became town reads

And misrepresented it for your own means.

notably with the example of Silverbullet, who posted 0 content and became a town read simply because I looked scummier to Civil.

Well, you can call it that way, or it could look that way to people, but considering that I haven't gone after Silverbullet this game,
one can safely assume that he's been a town read of mine throughout. I know you don't care, that's aight.

Where he says you shouldn't dredge up old posts and yet cites me nearly 30 posts back for his argument. Saying "using an attack as a defense is the oldest trick in the book" and then placing a vote to defend himself.

I never said you shouldn't dredge up posts. Way to lie and over state this, and twist it. I said you can't dredge
up old posts about someone's suspicions and then compare them to present posts, and then claim there's a total contradiction because
they aren't the exact same people. That's what I said. Also, the post I cited when I said this last part was like 4 posts ahead of mine, but who's counting.

I've made my case about how he backtracks and criticizes those who backtrack.

Uh-oh, claiming I've played hypocritically with fabricated evidence again...There's nothing wrong with back-tracking, juat with the way you tried to do it.

Where we are right now, a townie has no reason to lie. Civil has certainly put his fair share of lies out there.

My dear unholy Oli. Where have I ever lied about anything this game? You'd better come up with ONE so that we don't all know
that YOU ARE A SCUM WHO IS LYING. [Do not lie about this...I know it's hard, being scum and all]

You said X, then quickly changed to ~X without any good reason

There were plenty of good reasons for me to jump ship on Raz and VC, all this good reasons are scattered throughout YOUR posts.

So, fellow Newbie 1010 players, I pose this question to you. Lynch the guy who'll make sure scum doesn't go under the radar, or someone who defends himself with

Alright, I call BS on this.

? The choice is yours.

Haha, you are cracking me up at this point. Anyone can see with their own two goddamn eyes that that was part of my introduction to
post 534, and that I go on to explain why I called it BS, with the rest of the post. You are really reaching Olinea, and really mis-quoting me intentionally.
This would be the third time you've intentionally provided the town false information. Playing on the misconception that I haven't addressed all the accusations, no-less.

You mean why do I find reasons to believe that you are scum...

What I mean is, why does it seem like you are only doing this, when you should be finding reasons to judge my alignment, whatever it might be. That's what a townies job is.
To figure things out, not to find reasons to call someone scum. You've done way more attacking this game, than reasoning or defending. Just sayin.

Vinicius Chaim: Aaargh. You've successfully drawn fire from him...

Thanks for this. The only way I'd have done this is if I was scum with VC, and tried to distance myself first by pusing his wagon, and then jumping on the next voter.
Hopefully VC comes to understand this- that if he's not scum, he probably shouldn't vote for me.



Since you asked me, I'll say it again: Olinea Fabricates Evidence (for the first of what is now 3 times) in 3...2...1...

Oh, and while we're at it, mind explaining this little gem I just caught?

Alsright, here's an explanation for you, and for everyone. Raz has been my number 1 suspect on and off. He has the most evidence against him. The other people voting him are some of my stronger town reads.

Carefully read the last sentence of that.

My next 3 suspects would have to be Olinea, Silver (for being too buddy/friendly), and Neil.

Vote Count:
Razgriz (3): silverbullet999, Vincius Chaim, neil1113

Ladies and gentlemen, Civil appears to be claiming that he gets town reads from those who are voting Razgriz, such as silverbullet and neil. Now, if we take a look at his top suspects... oh! What is this?

You snipped the quote, threw in the term "top suspects", and presented it as a contradiction. I know you talked about it in your last post, but you didn't reconsider it, and nothing you said excuses you from how you twisted this. And yes, I did think your asking was pretty damn clever. But you should have just left it at that.

I agree with Raz's appraisal of Nevermind's play this game, and I think that VC has made a very credible observation on someone that isn't Raz. Who he was really after there for a while. I still think that was odd.

I really wish Y'all would lynch Olinea, and thank me later.

I think this is the breaking point. I think the Day 1 lynch will either be me or Civil.

Olinea, you got 1 vote, without anyone making a move towards placing a second... wow, you must think I'm onto something.

[Civil Scum]

Well, thank you. I've been waiting on Yoenit to provide some thoughts on this pile of sticks he poured gasoline on. It does make sense if I'm scum with VC, though even then I'm not sure I would have stuck my neck out for him like this, and risk getting BOTH of us caught. That's somewhat WIFOM, but there's no realistic need for me to pull some ridiculous gambit in a newbie game where I'm avoiding almost all suspicion.

Dude, have you even read the past 2-3 pages?

I thought we've both been making decent arguments. And haven't been confusing or round-about. So for no one to comment on the majority of it, aside from 'I don't understand why Olinea wants to lynch Civil', and 'I don't understand why Civil wants to lynch Olinea', leads me to believe that your question applies to more than one person. Being as we are 5 days from deadline, this is less than comforting.

[Civil Scum]

5. The Newbie Queue rules now require a non-retractable 3 week deadline per day, thus this game will have one. At deadline, a majority of people who have posted in thread within the last 48 hours and are not currently being replaced will be enough for a lynch. A player may also choose to not have their vote count at deadline if they are too busy to make an informed vote at deadline. If you choose this, I will inform the game that you have made this choice as soon as I am aware of it. I will add a section to all votecounts, separate from the main one of the votes of people who have posted within the last 48 hours. For example, let's say there are five people alive, Bob, Alice, Carol, David, and Erica, and Fredrick. Let's say that only Bob, Alice, David, Erica, and Frederick have posted within the last 48 hours at deadline but I am currently searching for a replacement for David and Frederick has requested that his vote not be counted. This would mean that two of Bob, Alice, and Erica would have to be voting the same person at deadline for a lynch to go through.

Kind of complicated. Depending on what people are doing at the deadline, it may result in either a lynch or a no-lynch.

2. Is it considered bad sportsmanship to hammer yourself if you think it'll help the town? For example, if we're close to the deadline, and I've got 4 votes, would it be a... erm... "dick move" to hammer myself so on Day 2 there'd be a 2/7 chance of finding scum rather than 2/8?

I'm not sure. It's definitely anti-town to hammer yourself out of indignation or frustration. For one, you kill a townie if you are one, and might not have been killed otherwise. Two, you rob the town of information (ie- who would have dropped the hammer otherwise). Third (though there are probably more reasons not to do this that I'm not aware of), if a scum has not voted for you, but might, you spare them having to put their name on the wagon (which could be especially useful if they hammer quickly or without much explanation or thought given to it). You're basically helping the scum beat your team.

With regards to your specific scenario/example, I would not be surprised if that has come up before, or if someone has done that. But it would just be better if we don't let it come to that.

A no-lynch is about the worst thing that you can let happen in D-1 of a newbie game.

No suspicions or cases are resolved, no new information is gained, you lose one townie and then are plopped right back to where you were. The lynch pool is larger (statistical probability of getting a scum on the next lynch is lower), you now need 5 votes instead of 4 to lynch a scum, and you don't buy yourself any time numbers wise. Another Day 8-2 (1 mislynch, 1 NightKill), leaves you at 4town to 2scum for D-3. Still a loss at that point if you miss. Though you could no-lynch then to eliminate one suspect. But you've still missed one of the town's chances to get a LOT of information.

It is pretty important that everyone understand that a no-lynch D-1 in a 9 player game is literally the WORST that we can do.


Nevermind: Definitely do not claim until you're at L-1 and threatened with a hammer. This is the only time a single person should claim their role, unless they are a PR at a critical moment.

I'm hesitant to single-out and run Nevermind up right now, because he's not the only inactive player (Caterpillar and Yoenit have also been quiet). Though, arguably, Nevermind is the guiltiest of lurking. But he's not the only one.

[Civil Scum]

HOW THE FUCK IS THIS AT ALL A PRO-TOWN STATEMENT?!

I don't think it was meant to be. More of a humorous observation of possibilities. He can easily make the argument/say that all of your joking has not been "pro-town".

I still support your vote though. He was doing a very good job, and I have to admit that I was getting frazzled because I was starting to feel like he was going to be able to get me lynched. But in the end, I think he bit off a tad more than he could chew in his first game. I would cry if I had to play as scum in my first forum game ever.

Caterpillar offered basically a replacement analysis of the game and it's players, but has not been active and current (or so it would seem). Olinea used Yoenit's attack on me as jump off point (or so it would seem), and after being involved in starting the case, Yoenit appears to have disappeared.

I'm not sure of a good way to decide which inactive player is the "most dangerous."
I'd like to know why we should single 1 of the lurkers

[Civil Scum]

I remain unconvinced.

[Civil Scum]

Civil, how do you feel about Silver, VC and now Caterpillar taking your argument against Olinea and running with it?

Hmmm. I have noticed. It makes me less confident in my read on Olinea. But only slightly. When I asked you a similar question, I wasn't sure what type of response I should even expect. It may be more of a measure of one's confidence in their case/voting than anything else.

It seems like a small caution sign to me only, but at this point, time is winding down. Obvously, if Olinea were to flip town, then all of these people, and their behavior late in D-1, probably myself and VC in particular, warrant very very serious scrutiny. Then again, Neil also cut out at deadline which would be a pretty good move, to sort of detach yourself from people's recollection of a lynch (and I have been mindful that he may be a good scum player and shirked the first wagon, got himself a lot of "open-field"). I think you would too, being just about the only person to defend a dying townie. Your defense of Olinea can be scummy for you no matter what Olinea's alignment is. Depends on how things play out. I'd say it's less likely that you'd be both scum, and more likely that Olinea is not but you are. Let me make sure that's not misconstrued. I don't mean that you're more suspicious. I mean I would be more inclined to suspect you if Olinea flipped town, and less inclined if he was indeed scum. But again, I'd have to wait for the flip to really get any useful mileage out of that.

That was the thing about Olinea's comments on Silver's posting. I didn't agree that he had been primarily posting contentless. His early posting too, I felt was decent. Even if he was joking with people's names and what not, his early posts almost always had a point to them, and some real discussion of the game and it's players.

I agree with a lot of what you posted, and especially about VC. I attributed the nature of his recent attack and vote to newness only, and chose to ignore it. But looking at it again, or the way you're observing it, VC does not sound very good.

Caterpillar too, in the event that Olinea flipped town, deserves some serious attention imo.

One of the things I didn't like about Olinea dropping his case on me, he never cited his thoughts on my attacks of some of his evidence. He never asked to be excused for his errors or overzealousness (the only two possibilities for a townie to have made those errors), and instead of going over his points in comparison to my defense, or reconsidering/revisiting them, or even trying to push them past and get them "around" my counter-points, he cited different (almost unrelated) basis's's for turning around on me. So it did seem as if he had simply dumped the case when it wasn't panning out, rather than beginning to reconsider his case, which is what you would fairly often reliably expect from a townie who thinks they are wrong.

I can't see myself switching my vote anywhere else, though I would intend to take it up earnestly in D-2. And if I have been wrong on Olinea, and I helped him get ran into the ground by the real scum-ooportunists, then Olinea, I am sorry

[Civil Scum]

I check the thread quite often. I will switch my vote if (and only if) it is neccesary to avoid a no-lynch at deadline. Like Olinea, my vote was on VC before I put it on Olinea. But I still feel about 90% that Olinea is scum. VC flipping town would pretty much put the 99%-nail in that coffin for me.

I'm not sure if Razgriz realizes that he's been on just about every wagon this whole game, if not every wagon. Just sayin.

Did anyone note how Olinea quoted Cattepillar many many times, but in the next post named Silver and Neil his top suspects? Get it?

[Civil Scum]

Sorry, it was Silver and Vincius. Though, my point is -for future refernce- that if my read on you has been correct, then your partner is neither of the two last people you named.

So Cattepillar or Nevermind. Possibly Raz.

[Civil Scum]

VC:

Don't claim yet.

Anyone:

Please state your honest and outright intention of hammering before voting

Unless you want to be friggin auto-lynched tomorrow.

[Civil Scum]

Why would you need to be perfectly clear about something like that?

[Civil Scum]

Because he just got to L-1 very very quickly, and as of now, there's no clear 5th person who's looking to jump to that wagon. We have one claim, there's no sense in VC claiming if Neil, or anyone else for that matter, is going to hammer Olinea. It's by-and-large an unneccesary claim, which is generally to be avoided.
(That's what I meant btw, by all means, please hammer Olinea. But first announce an honest intention to hammer if it's VC you choose to vote for)

Because the "best" he can do is claim "Vanilla Townie", the "worst" is a PR, assuming he's telling the truth. If you just assume prior to hearing his actual claim, that he claims VT, then it shouldn't affect someone's decision to vote too much, and they still get a chance to hear the claim before they make it final.

Just because you have competing BW's doesn't mean you need a dual or simultaneous claim. I suggested this idea in a tough decision in a past game, and it was summarily shot down by some wiser than I. We don't want dual or multiple claims, we just want a claim from the person who is about to be lynched. And ideally, unless you're mass-claiming, you shouldn't get a claim from someone unless they are almost certainly going to die. The idea is to avoid making a serious mistake, not to make the town's decision easier, or to get "information" on players by such means. So I just think it would be more proper, and safer/better, if VC doesn't claim until someone says that they are definitely going to kill him. Too close to deadline, with people's activity levels, I realize this approach could be problematic. But at the moment, it's for the best.

[Civil Scum]

Might be Olinea/Razgriz

[Civil Scum]

WHAT????? Have you not been reading my posts or anything? Because, I have been scumhunting alot

Imo, this is a strange ass comment to say to the person you're trying to lynch.

He voted Neil (1st most widely suspected person on D-1), then was on the VC wagon, then voted for my wagon, then voted for Olinea. The only wagon Raz hasn't been on was his own.

[Civil Scum]

To be perfectly clear, I think that it might be possible to judge from someone, whether or not they would try misdirection if they thought they were caught as scum. Whether they thought they could clear themselves a great deal with a bus, whether they would do little either way, or whether they would try misdirecting <-- and to what extent and in what ways they would try misdirection. With a bit of observation and a bit of luck, maybe it could be sifted out or decoded as it were. Though the best shot is usually taking a decent look back over the game after you've caught someone.

If I am wrong about Olinea, then obviously I have to completely reconsider my suspects. But I continue to doubt it more and more.

Yoenit, if I may try to convince one person quickly:

...I have convinced myself, just by this one tiny little point, that [Civil is] town.

I raised the point, that considering that Olinea unvoted VC to vote me, he would have to assume that I had placed myself in absolutely pointless and tremendous danger to go for one mislynch over some other mislynch. Now, I didn't realize it at the time, but in his change of heart post, Olinea doesn't reason this in the same way. He just claims to be going off the basis that I wouldn't of tried so hard to get the -one- mislynch, on him. (Which makes sense, if we consider his experience, realizing/thinking as scum that running through a Civil mislynch this game would have landed him in hot water). Not only is it a little tenuous to propose that no IC (my experience is supposedly factored into his reasoning) had ever gotten carried away, or done it by mistake, or pushed a mislynch really hard and got away with it (rest assured I've done this many times irl), it should be even less convincing if Olinea really suspected VC. It was not totally clear whether or not he still did inbetween then and now, until he used his past suspicion of him just recently. He should be now, or during the interim depending on "when" he began leaning towards VC again, "closer to the fence on me." If VC were scum (compared to the mislynch to mislynch thing I would have done), if VC were scum, then I'd have much much more reason to have taken a chance at nailing a townie (if I thought I had a good shot at it- like when there are two top suspects, and going to be plenty of votes with perhaps not the most original reasoning given, at a relatively good time for me to "change my mind" and "sorry, guys, damn, messed up on that one, it happens a lot") and saving my scum partner in the process. I know I said I'm not sure if I would think the risk would have been worth it, but it is FAR AND AWAY a less gray area of WIFOM than VC and Olinea being townies and me still jumping all over Olinea.

If Olinea really suspected VC now, or in the interim, it should have seemed more reasonable that I could be scum and would have tried to drive a lynch on a townie who looked opportunistic. If he though VC is scum, then he shouldn't have a feeling of "I'm certain of your townieness on this tiny point." And at the least, he should be closer to the fence on me than the extreme area he claims his read is in now.

But, given his second look at VC and his now voting for VC, he never moved, and isn't moving closer to the fence on his read of me now.

The explanation for this has two likely possibilities in my mind:
1- He doesn't really suspect VC.
2- He knows VC is a scum, and I am a townie. And because of that, failed to factor "thinking" VC is scum into how his read of my play should be affected.

Could you explain (as best you can cause I know sometimes you can't really explain reads but) what about Olinea's dropping the case on me that made you feel like he's just a townie trying to find scum and make the right decisions, as compared to the 'Oh crap, this has quickly become a lose/lose situation for me' (which is how I read it).

It really is time to send him back to his Mod.

[Civil Scum]

His reasoning behind the unvote seemed logical and one I could have made myself. You were attacking him quite hard at the time but he was still at L-4, so there was no immediate reason to abandon his vote on you.

Usually I would agree with you on that point, though he only had one vote at that time he still perceived himself to be in a lot of danger. Does that make ANY sense, at all?

I think this is the breaking point. I think the Day 1 lynch will either be me or Civil.

Olinea, you got 1 vote, without anyone making a move towards placing a second... wow, you must think I'm onto something.

Granted my comment didn't exactly warrant a specific response, but unless I missed it, Olinea never explained why he felt he was in danger when he only had 1 vote.

At any rate, bussing (or at least bussing votes) are more common than you might think. And yes, Olinea voted for VC instead of Raz, but he also said "If you can do this simple thing, then I'll unvote." (After which I pointed out that VC's ability to do the thing Olinea asked was a matter of experience and comfort with the game, not dependent on alignment). He told VC very clearly what to do to get his vote off, and his vote was there for a short time until he saw the beginnings of your case on me, and at that point the town looked like it wanted to lynch both Raz and VC (and might do so in a following day). All of this type of reasoning is going to be inconclusive, but based on how he did it and the circumstances, I think it's more possible that it was a vote for a scum partner (More likely than if me and him were the scum, and he had done it like it). I would also think it would be possible based on what we know about Olinea's thoughts about pushing mislynches (He thinks it's extremely dangerous for a scum. He's said that and reasoned along those lines more than once). When we take that into account, it also seems possible that he would have voted his scum partner, instead of the townie when given the choice, especially if he thought VC had a good shot at being lynched, that day or the next, when it looked like he did.

I'm not saying I think it's unreasonable or illogical for you to feel that way about his behavior towards VC and the wagon, I'm just saying that it's not as unlikely as "he would never do that in that situation."

Can we stop talking about partners before we know who one half of the pair is?

-I don't know what else to do.

-As for my Razgriz comment, it's again one of those things where I'm not saying based off of connection, just the fact that I think Olinea is scum, and then realizing how much Raz has BW'd this game. Partners by individual guilt, not partners based on the flip or their interactions or coordination.

-Personally, this would be the most sure I have ever been on someone, and been wrong. So I feel completely comfortable speculating on his partner (though I haven't re-read yet).

-I don't want to just sit here and wait for people to get back and make up their mind.

-Why does it make you uncomfortable, or why don't you like us doing it?

[Civil Scum]

I'll answer that as soon as you explain why you felt the need to be prefectly clear the thing at the top of this page.

[Civil Scum]

EBWOP: "clear

about

the thing at the top of the page."

Sorry, you did not, I may have jumped to the conclusion there. Thanks for keeping me honest at least. You gave Olinea a "minor Fos" while giving me a "hand of suspicion." It was Nevermind (you also positioned yourself to go after Yoenit for lurking), and I would expect that had a BW been started on either of those two people, you would have been on them.

Not that it might not be scum hunting, but we couldn't just take your word for it being that. If we took your word and just accepted that your BW'ing = scum hunting, then we wouldn't be behaving like very good townies.

This is a fair point you have here about when you got on the different wagons. I had forgotten about that.


Olinea, just saying that "If you flipped town, I would view it as a near-miracle, and it would have been the most sure I have ever been on a scum-read and been wrong about it"

[Civil Scum]

I should mention that your being this sure on Olinea is worrying to me.

That's all great n stuff. But personally, I couldn't possibly care any less.

[Civil Scum]

Yeah, I personally wasnt fucking aware of that. If I was, Olinea would be long gone.

[Civil Scum]

Nevermind esta lurkivo! Muchos Grandes!

Neil went to the bathroom when the check came!

Why the fuck are you getting so angry about this

-I might have misread a tone into your post.

-I'm frustrated that Olinea hasn't been lynched.

-Your original quote was addressed to me (or phrased that way, anways (ie- "

Your

______is making Me)), so coupled with a "You're not the only player here asshole"-reading, I didn't like the comment.

-Also I'm frustrated that Olinea hasn't been lynched yet.

-Also I'm frustrated that Olinea hasn't been lynched yet.

-Also I'm frustrated that Olinea hasn't been lynched yet.

-

[Civil Scum]

Deadline is in 18 hours. I guess VC should claim. It's unfortunate.

Threatening to self-hammer repeatedly, for any reason, and never doing it is probably a scum tell in some people's books.

Reiterating your townieness throughout the game, and then claiming that it somehow is evidence (or breadcrumbing) of your innocence is also pretty sketchy...

You don't have to worry about the deadline. I will hammer VC if need be. But y'all best be lynching Olinea the next day.

I'm giving Neil a few hours to get back. And hopefully, VC will have come back and claimed by then. And I will switch my vote.

[Civil Scum]

Will catch up with a post, but first quickly.

...even though there really wasn't much of a case against Oli except for what Civil pointed out.

I wouldn't go that far, but it really was less of a "case" than him just being/acting really scummy. And I wouldn't even say that I just interpreted everything as scummy because I got myself tunneled or something. He was sounding extremely scummy to me, and lots of the things he did and said were pricking me terribly. Someone's going to say this sounds scummy, but I was shocked at the flip. I mean literally shocked. My hair stood up and I couldn't eat for days...not really, but I was shocked.

He was mirepresenting me, and strawmanning based on my "evasive tendencies". He backed off his whole case on me with 1 point and 1 post, and compeltely did a 180. He claimed that bread-crumbing 'townie' should be counted as evidence that he's a townie. He said he was trying to play scummy in the same post that he said that he really wasn't trying to.

I'm not trying to justify it or anything (or maybe I am a little), but more that I disagree with your opinion/read of it.


Neil: It really is this simple. You want to lynch Razgriz. Lets say we do, and he's a townie. We get a third day to make the right lynch.

If we had not had a claim from VC, and didn't lynch Olinea, and just let Nevermind die at night (for example. He's still lurking HARD btw). We'd have no new hard-information to work with, and we'd likely be still trying to decide between Olinea and VC. Then we lynch Olinea and VC dies. Now you go after Razgriz. He flips town and you Lose.

Do you want 3 chances to get a correct-lynch, or do you want 2?

I need to take a good hard look back at daRaz, Yoenit, Catepillar. I hope Nevermind can come back to play the game.

But I really am clue-less at this point.

If Silver is scum, he's playing a very sauve and good game. The sometimes annoying humor could be part of his plan/facade...

We had 5 real wagons D-1 before a lynch. That was pretty impressive/unusual. It's never really the first, but often by the second or third realistic suspect, the town is ready for someone to go. We tried for a long time to get the best lynch...and both of the suspects were townies. I'm not sure if any of this means anything, but it's pretty interesting and unusual for a newbie game.

I also did remember Raz being too anxious and quick about getting claims from people.

[Civil Scum]

All of my speculations were surrounding Olinea flipping scum and VC lying so I desperately need to do a big reread.

Whoa whoa there Secretariat

What happened to this?

And I didn't like [Civil] making it seem like I was randomly waffling and

still find the fact that [he's] so certain about Olinea and that [he] got pissy as hell as soon as I mentioned finding [him] scummy. scummy as all fuck.
I'm also frustrated at that. x 3

Forget so soon or something?

Was there ever a time, while you were leaving your vote on Olinea and calling me scummy, when it occured to you that we were maybe the most unlikely scum-pair in the whole game?


Neil: The no-lynch thing is counterintuitive, but not to the point of incomprehensibility. I think this is Yoenit's point, that you sound like you're repeating a townie-slogan, or intentionally "failing" to comprehend it.

Razgriz: Can you explain why you had a "bad feeling" as you went to hammer Olinea?

As for Yoenit, I think your defense of Olinea stank to high heavens. You didn't seem able or willing to give any reasoning as to why you'd be inclined to think well of holy-Oli. Your case on me was based on speculation, and before that you basically said that I seemed suspicious to you for being pro-town and for not seeming suspicious to anyone else. I mean correct me if I'm wrong but 'you're not suspicious to anyone' seems like a terrible reason to suspect someone. Like one of the worst I can think of.

Nevermind: Always nice to see you. Seriously. But you do realize that you've been posting just enough to defend yourself and stay in the game. I totally understand being busy with school or work and stuff and irl situations. But that can easily be a lie, and how would we be able to tell if it was true or not? How can we be sure your posting habits this game are not malicious behavior? Or that your busy-ness is not a half-truth?

Still have to take a gander over at the wolf...

[Civil Scum]

vote: Yoenit

[Civil Scum]

I am not sure if you are mathematically challenged or just pretending not to understand. Assuming the latter, which gives you a shitload of scum points.

Why would you assume something that you're not sure of, for the purpose of giving someone scum points?

And while I understood your point on Neill clearly, it is by no means imaginable a cause of "shitloads of scum points." Especially, since as you already said, he might not understand it yet, or it may be stubborness.

You didn't want to vote Olinea, based on that you were so sure VC was scum, and you couldn't see them being scum together... so both of them died and all you've naturally talked about/or mentioned since coming back is your V/LA and a disagreement about no-lynching...something doesn't seem right to me about that.

[Civil Scum]

You have 9 people, two of them can kill you. If you had the choice, would you really want to let TWO people die just because the "odds" might be better in catching scum?

It's always unfortunate when you mislynch. Obviously we wouldn't want to lynch people we knew were townies. AND one of those people would have died anyways. So we weren't "letting two people die", we were taking a chance at catching scum. After the lynch, of course you can say that no-lynch might have been better, but we had no way of knowing Olinea was a townie, right Neil?

You're in a dark room, and there's two people in the darkness that want to kill you. You have a gun but can't see very well or make anything out. Do you want 3 bullets, or 2?

[Civil Scum]

Neil, you're getting scum points for defending Yoenit.

[Civil Scum]

Why would you attack my vote on Yoenit before he had even had a chance to respond to it?

[Civil Scum]

Ladies and Gentleman, boys and girls...

...all know that you are wrong about the no-lynch thing. And I mean ALL. Like everyone who's played mroe than one game on this forum.

I'm not going to continue debating anything with you until you slow down and realize you're way off base about this. You're assuming that we knew Olinea was a townie, for one.

[Civil Scum]

I meant "slow down" because everything explaining to you why a no-lynch would have been worse in that situation has been spelled out for you in terms a monkey could understand prior to this point in the game.

You're just responding with non-sense about how I'm wrong concerning a debate which you have obviously already misunderstood.

Yeah, good one sport.

Civil, if anything I believe it is you that should "slow down." Think about your posts before you just submit them. I know you'd like to get your pretty little last words in, but if you'd take a minute and think about what you're saying before you post, you wouldn't have to do a triple post. Truthfully, right now you're just pathetic and you're waisting my time. So unless you have something to discuss, then we're done here.

Umm..you play this game to be condescending and to insult the other players?

It's about the fact that Oli in my opinion wasn't even remotely the most suspicious person, and you guys should not have pursued that lynch. That simple.

Oh, see, I missed the part where you completely fuckin changed what was being discussed...
And if this is ture, well then, where the fuck were you?

You were blinded and narrow minded in your choice

The only time someone isn't responsible for votes placed on them is RVS.

While I don't completely agree with Olinea on this, there is definitely some truth to that, but yeah Neil, you're right, the mislynch was all my fault. It doesn't take 5 votes to lynch someone. Being an IC, I should lead the town around and play a perfect game every time. The mislynch was all my fault.

You're being very condenscending and distracting. And this is not going to help us at all.

[Civil Scum]

Silverbullet has played a remarkably clean game. If he's scum, then he probably deserves to win.

If Nevermind is scum, then my theory is that he didn't actually win. I don't think scum should get credit for a win in a game if they lurked the whole time. You shouldn't be able to win a game by not playing it. So if he's scum, ah well, he didn't really win.

If it ain't Razgriz, then Neil is scum with Yoenit or Caterpillar.

Neil, even though you are annoying me greatly at this point, I'm going to end up agreeing with you at the end of this post.

Also Civil, could you please restate your case against Yoenit? Because right now if I've read correctly, it's because he made a good call with bad reasoning concerning Olinea, and he had bad reasons to place his vote on you? That doesn't sound like a very solid case to me Civil, one I'd be shocked you would make... which is also why I have to ask what you reasoning is again, just to be sure that this is in fact, it.

1. You're calling the case weak here. How you can claim that's not some form of attack on the case is truly baffling.

And it seemed that you did miss one of the posts. But I'm not about to go and repeat things I just said on the same page. I remembered you mentioning Yoenit, which is why you got scum points for swiveling around and apparently attacking the start of a case on him. That didn't make a whole lot of god damn sense to me.

Which I do believe it was you who brought up Oli in the first place last day phase...

But I can totally see your point Civil in your argument against Raz, though my gut and suspicions say to stay with Ups for the moment. For the records Ups, to clarify a bit why I'm voting for you...

:Golf Clap, for being an ass:

Here:

[Yoenit] didn't want to vote Olinea, based on that [he was] so sure VC was scum, and [he] couldn't see them being scum together... so both of them died and all [Yoenit has] naturally talked about/or mentioned since coming back is [his] V/LA and a disagreement about no-lynching...something doesn't seem right to me about that.

This is not part of a big case or a sweeping game-wide trend in his gameplay, or a giant post listing all the times he BW'd or something, but it is by no means a trivial matter. It is the type of thing that makes it look like his suspicions are not real.

The strength of a case is not based purely on its length and amount of material. Assume for two seconds that Nevermind is the scum...okay, now make a nice big, robust, case, with a lot of depth, for that fact. gg

Now, with that said Mr. Civil. I really do suggest you stop throwing out "scum points" so easily

I asked respectable questions in looking at everybody again. I'm not supposed to be poking everywhere again? That's my response to having two of my suspects unbelievably flip town on me. So, sorry I guess, if a townie is not supposed to do something like that. I'm really very sorry, how do you want me to play Neil?

A newbie game is supposed to be a learning experience. If we lynch Raz and he's town, then Neil will realize that he's not going to be right about everything all the time. And if Raz is scum, then great. So, win/win here I think, is lynching Raz.

Raz has been on every single wagon now that he hammered Olinea. Even times he was one of the first ones. In the case of Yoenit, someone voted Yoenit for lurking, and Raz's next post was voting Yoenit for lurking. He's done that throughout the game with a great deal of consistency. I started re-reading the entire game post by post, and he's had the most mis-steps. All the way back, when he picked Silverbullet as his top suspect and didn't vote, and gave really flimsy "reachy" reasons for naming Silver his scummiest read.

I forgot how I thought it was weird that he called Neil so paranoid (about Raz/himself being scum), yet said that paranoia was the same as a scummy type of paranoia. I forgot how that leap also didn't make any sense.

He put one of the first votes on Nevermind for lurking, and then suggested that we get Nevermind to claim. I don't think any townie wants someone to claim just because they are lurking. They want them to stop lurking and post more.

Razgriz flipped out when Neil used their position on Raz's random list as a point in his case. He really flipped out. Called him "the most paranoid guy ever," and didn't just dismiss it with any level of casualness or calmness, which is all that would be required when you know that it really was a terrible point made by Neil. I realized now in rereading that section, that the reason Raz got so worked up over it, was because it was such a ridiculous, terrible, outlandish, unbelievable point, but Neil was right and had him pegged. That's why it bothered him so much, and why he had scuk a vigorous reaction to it.

Here's a nice post, and one I'm sure Caterpillar will enjoy:
Post 214, page 9

Epic paranoia. You mention ONLY the fact that I used random.org which you believe to be bullsh*t that I made it up. Also bud, I don't see where the scum part on Ups is coming in. One thing I will say is that it is very likely neil is scum and is trying to get Ups lynched who could very likely be scum making neil look town. Just sayin.

Notice the bold-faced contradiction? And the attempt at engineering a mislynch using his scum partner's alignment?

vote: Razgriz

[Civil Scum]

A little, yeah I am letting it go. The problem is that I don't really think you're scum, but at the same time I don't have any real way to have much confidence about that. Being as I'm atleast leaning towards town on you, I don't want to lynch you for the lukring. Is there some other way for us to get you to post more frequently or larger posts? Or some way to get you to travel back in time and participate more in the key moments of the game, for which you were largely absent/quiet?

Since that hasn't seemed possible to me (and is impossible), and I think other people are scummy enough to be scum and I don't want to lynch you, the best option seems to me to let you go on it, but try to undercut your potential victory if it's been a mistake to not have simply lynched you for it. That's seems the best I can do. Was there some other way to have gotten you to post more? I mean, if you are really busy, no one can make you stop being busy. Out of options.

I obviously havn't done that - "Ah, if he's scum, oh well", with anyone else. Olinea pushed me hard with a case that I felt was decent at first, but began to look contrived after closer inspection, and I did the fair-share of leg-work in putting him in the ground. (Sorry again Olinea if you're watching).

I mean, was there something else I can do besides voting you and pushing for your lynch and see if that will get you more active, or grant you a time-traveling ability?

I don't mean it rudely if you have been busy (and are not a lying scum), and you don't have to answer that. This is just my defense to your point.

[Civil Scum]

Last post and then I'll wait for people to get back. Yoenit, in particular, comes back Tuesday. And I think Caterpillar has some explaining to do.

Because right now if I've read correctly, it's because [Yoenit] made a good call with bad reasoning concerning Olinea...

You can't see why that might be suspicious??? Like, really?

And I still don't understand why you would "question" (or attack, it's just word substitution for the tone and effect of your post) someone who went and started making a case on the other guy you just said was raising your suspicions. And, um excuse me, but "If that's all you can get, then why don't you give up and look somewhere else?" A: Well, if you are starting to suspect someone and want to look into them, then why don't YOU just do the whole damn thing yourself, huh? Why rely on someone else to make the case if you won't be satisfied with any part of it unless those parts were yours? Why didn't you just do it?

I think Neil's glossed over several things (though I'm not going to dig them up and cover them right now) in favor of "keeping his eye on people" while consistently pursuing Raz for almost the entire game.

These are all negative marks in Neil's scumbook for me, and are why I think if Raz flipped town, Neil would be a good candidate after that. Once it became obvious that he pursued, hassled, and tunneled on a townie all game, simply because that townie appeared to be the scummiest player. (Which Raz is imo at this point, don't get me wrong). But for Raz to flip town, it would really look to me like Neil tried to take advantage of Raz's apparent scumminess...all game.

But until a Raz flip, for him to have accused me of tunneling is a town point. As he has appeared to be quite tunneled on Raz, so for him to use that accusation on me would make me think he was less aware of that irony and less aware that he has tunneled, which I would expect more often from a townie than from a scum who would be more likely to know (or be aware) of that. Because it'd be something they've been -trying- to do all game.

[Civil Scum]

Well, Raz just threw up a nice big strawman argument.

I'm not sure why Caterpillar seems to think my strong-arming the Olinea wagon gets me a bunch of townie points. Yet Raz seems to think it's only an indication of my manipulative scum tactics.

But for Civil to accuse me of being scummy should Raz flip town, then the argument would be likewise against Oli being town and Civil being scum because Oli flipped town.

Not really, I still looked around and was considering several wagons over the coutrse of D-1, I didn't by-and-large pursue the same lynch. Also, everyone's different. A double-standard in mafia is not so clear-cut. If two people give different, but generally well thought out reasons for their voting for someone, you may like one person's reasoning or their vote better than the other guy's, (based on other things they've done that game, or based on something in their personality, any number of reaons really why you could still rank them or order them in your mind), even if their one example of behavior is nearly identical. I'm glad you didn't go much beyond this, because it looks like the beginning of a false argument. Though I am surprised that no one seems to have given me any scum-points for that unfortunate sequence of events.

I also fail to see how it is "circular." If you mean it can go back and forth, it would, but from the view of other players, I think one of us would edge out the other person in the argument. Cause that has to happen, they wouldn't judge our argument, or behaviors or play as being identical in that regard. It's just not possible.

It's not something I would just say in trying to claim this, I would find plenty of examples where you ignored other decent suspects and lines of questioning in favor of keeping pressure on Raz.

That said, I'm rather satisfied with a Raz lynch after his last post. He made no strong attempt at defending himself against any of his accusers, and instead chose to vote for me with a pretty weak argument and really shaky reasoning.

[Civil Scum]

Civil made us mislynch and manipulate us beyond belief... further more he was the one leading Oli's lynch and Oli flipped town so that means Civil was able to rid of his BIGGEST opponent.

First, Raz, you did hammer, so you also made us mislynch. And for the record, long before the lynch, Olinea said he was practically convinced that I was a townie.

[Civil Scum]

If you think it's obvious that I "manipulated the town into that lynch", why'd you wait until now to suddenly say that?

[Civil Scum]

It's a circular argument that could go round and round, one in which I have no desire nor patience to partake in.

Actually, though I know you called something else "circular" earlier inaccurately/inappropriately (probably cause you think it sounds pretty), a circular argument or circular reasoning is when the reasoning is presented as a logical chain or progression, when in reality the truthfulness of the individual parts of the argument are dependent on the truthfulness of other parts of the argument.

-There you go, you learned something just now, I can't see how you can say THAT was a jeans-pants waist of time.

So Civil, bash me as much as you'd like, your opinion means very little to me at the moment.

Just thought I'd send some back your way

Though your two first and main suspects were Ups (Catepillar) and Raz, and you may very well have been right the whole time. You've played a really good game, though I've come to take issue with your playstyle instinct to attack other people's arguments instead of reinforcing your own. Though that too, seems to have worked this time out. But sometimes, and I know this from experience, it can be a less effective way of getting a your lynch because it can turn other players off to you arguments. Just my opinion and feedback.

So what if he said that?

Err, umm, cause that's not what -you- just said.

And it's not about "catching" it, surely you must have been aware that this had taken place, when it was happening and during the night while you were thinking things over... so you must have already "caught" it unless you've been sleep-walking for ten days. It's that you never found it so incredibly scummy until just now after I voted you.

[Civil Scum]

Ah man, it's alright. I considered us even after my last post.

[Civil Scum]

Raz, I don't mean to tell you what "you've done wrong" with this post, I mean to epxlain that this is part of why we think you are so scummy.

Now, how dare you say I'm twisting your words. Catterpillar thought that my pushing the wagon was townish. There must be reasons -why- you both interpreted my behavior so differently. Catterpillar should be able to explain somethings why he would think that, just like there must be reasons that make you see it differently. "You're a scum who's manipulated us into lynching townies, why? Because you are a scum who's manipulated us into lynching townies", is not acceptable.

Everytime someone has pushed an argument on you, rather than defend yourself from the points and accusations, you have responded with a flimsy vote. You did it to me (twice I think), you did it to Neil, and you did it to VC.

But remember what you told Neil, just like you told me now?

Now this paranioa along with other scumtells and reasons stated in my anaylasis have now put you #1 on my scum list.

Not because you voted me

...

Since you've now done it about 4 times, the odds that it was just a coincidence that all the different times that you "caught" things, or "picked up tells" have been immediately after someone votes for you. Those odds are not in your favor, believe me.

In that same post, you also dismiss all Neil's previous points and the one's that he brought up two posts before yours. Saying that his whole case was bad, and apparently not requiring you to make any sort of defense, because of the one RV-list point. Which was by far not the bed rock of the case. All game, instead of defending yourself, amswering people's questions, and explaining yourself, you choose instead to vote back at the person. And then you lie about it as you do it.
viewtopic.php?p=2514501#p2514501


Silver, Neil. It's probably going to be 1 of us 3 that die tonight, so I think we should agree that no matter who dies, we need to lynch Caterpillar the next day, after Raz today.
Game, set, match

[Civil Scum]

I should add this. This post of Neil's was literally two posts above Razgriz's linked voting-post. It becomes quite relevant to this after point 4. Razgriz does't even mention the rest of this in his response to the post. Everything besides the RV-list (all the stuff about Ups and Raz) doesn't even get mentioned.
viewtopic.php?p=2514414#p2514414

I wouldn't be surprised if Caterpillar has spent so much time poo-poo'ing scum-pair specualtion this game because, in replacing, she saw how linked Ups and Raz had been.

[Civil Scum]

So tomorrow it will be okay to speculate on you being Raz's partner?

I presume this is because you think me and Raz are a scum pair? Anything I've done myself?

I have been suspicious of you for far longer than I have let on.


Do you think Raz is the best lynch the town has atm? If yes, why? If no, why not?

[Civil Scum]

His vote on me was OMGUS-y? Yeah, it was. And so were the other 3 times he's done it.

[Civil Scum]

So, if you're 100% then you must be the cop. Except that you've claimed VT twice.

Am I missing something? Especially when earlier in the game you called it your "95% sure" feeling you get sometimes.

I am your scumbuddy, is that what you are claiming?

[Civil Scum]

Oh, I don't know, he might have some more surprises.

He might suddenly catch that he's the cop, 100%.

[Civil Scum]

Um, i think there's still a chance that Razgriz is falling for a subconscious "OMGUS mindset", as a newbie town.

It -could- be that, but that he's lied about it everytime makes me think otherwise.

So yeah I think if no one has anything important to say, someone should just hammer.

Agreed


I swears that I am not scum with Raz. Not a chance.

[Civil Scum]

He doesn't really have a case, or anything to base his 100% suspicion off of, really. That has been part of my point.

What makes you think he's going to be able to do this after not doing it for a month.

[Civil Scum]

and I am V/LA until the 10th cause of fall break

Waiting to hear his case on me is probably not going to be worth it.

I really hope for you Razgriz is scum, for you are the obvious lynch target tomorrow if he is not.

Aye, I hope for the town's sake too...
But maybe we'll just see about this second part.

[Civil Scum]

I mean, if that's what we are "really" waiting for (I know it's what Catterpillar is waiting for), then that's okay.

But I believe I'm accurate in predicting that it's going to be more "these are times which Civil manipulated the town." Which is not really a case, and I've already offered my opinion on that.

Cat: Someone being really scummy is enough to lynch someone, right Cat? Must I dig up your quote, so soon after you made it??
You voted Olinea. Were you voting out of impatience? Why were you voting Olinea again?

[Civil Scum]

I thought your pushing Olinea so hard was townish because you were so certain that he was scum and then he wasn't. There were other people that could easily have been lynched day one yet you were

pushing Oli who was scummy as all hell even though he wasn't scum

when there were easier mislynches to steer the town towards if you had chosen to

but you didn't because Oli was the scummiest person at the time

thus you get some town points.

Uh-oh

Yesterday proved that impatience is not a good enough reason to lynch someone.

Yikes!

I'd also be willing to hammer once raz provides his case.

So you agree that it's kinda pointless. So, then, what's the point?

Your actions are contradicting your words.

[Civil Scum]

...pushing Oli who was scummy as all hell even though he wasn't scum when there were easier mislynches to steer the town towards

This comment doesn't seem very well-thought out. What mis;ynch could be easier than that?

[Civil Scum]

Mod: any prods in order?

unvote

I have something I wanted to get some opinions on before a lynch. I think it might be better for the cop to claim now.

[Civil Scum]

I might be wrong, I don't know.

And only if they don't have a scum-investigation on Razgriz. Cause then it doesn't matter, we won't be at Ly-Lo tomorrow.

In the event that Razgriz amazingly flips town, I was just thinking initially, that now the Doc is dead, the mafia know whether or not there is a cop (that is a good position for them, very good), and all they'd have to do is have bread-crumbed a little and claim D-3. If we are Ly-lo tomorrow, then any cop claim is going to be 100% unverifiable, almost to the point of uselessness. Whereas, we would lock the scum into trying to claim it now, if they do intend to. Also, if the real cop claims, we could end up with 1 verified townie in Ly-lo, instead of just choosing whether or not to believe the cop claim. It increases our chance of getting a counter-claim on scum who would try it, and could lead to a verified townie.

??

[Civil Scum]

I thought about aksing other SE's or IC's, but the game's on-going, so it probably wouldn't be right. I'm completely open for debate. The general opinion of our town would suffice for me. I also don't want to try and make this happen, if it is actually a terrible idea, and only seems to have benefits.

I was recently burned by scums who decided there was no cop (by other reasoning besides set-up knowledge, it was pretty slick), so maybe I'm over-worried about it.

[Civil Scum]

Well, only in the event that Razgriz isn't scum. I might have been more clear about that. Bu, yes, assuming he is (which we are by voting), then the whole thing is irrelevant and would be a bad idea. That's true.

I thought about that, but a few positives remain, though maybe not enough. If they NK'd the townie, the scum take a big risk leaving a (not confirmed/not disproven) REAL cop in the game.

Secondly, the scum would have to expose themself now and claim now, so we'd eliminate the chance of having a claim to deal with tomorrow.

Although we still could end up choosing between either a true cop-claim and a fake-one.

The problem is that the scum know whether or not there is a cop. So, if they get put in a tough spot later, we can reasonably expect to have a cop claim (real or fake) at some point. Especially at LyLo.

But, you're right, it is needlessly exposing the cop if we're right about Razgriz. Nevermind about all of that.

vote: Razgriz

For lurking

[Civil Scum]

Ah yes, the roleblocking, forgot about that one.

[Civil Scum]

Umm, yeah. Or it just slipped my mind.

[Civil Scum]

If I really had thought of that, then I could have never thought getting a cop claim would be a good idea.

How long's it been since Raz posted?

[Civil Scum]

You can say it's role-fishing, but I made it pretty clear that it might be a bad idea. And in D-1, I tried to prevent a premature claim from VC's.

Raz has consistently ASKED for claims from individual people.

[Civil Scum]

Nevermind: If I was a goon with someone, then I would have already known there wasn't a cop, so I would be role-fishing for a role I knew didn't exist.

Caterpillar: It becomes not a moot point when someone claims cop at LyLo, and I don't know if I should trust them.

[Civil Scum]

Is this the day Razgriz dies, or WHAT

[Civil Scum]

Considering that almost half of the town is scum, working with other people in the town can be dangerous.

[Razgriz is] not the cop.

Could you explain this fully?

I can't believe I was wrong about Raz.

Anymore of this?


Razgriz...razzy razzy...every BW and 3 mid-late game OMGUS votes while denying that they were OMGUS... good god in heaven!

Aye, caution in votes is key, one misplaced vote can do it.

I'm not sure what to think about Catterpillar, since I was basing it almost entirely off of Razgriz. (and his,'Neil, I don't see why Ups is scummy...but he is likely to be scum with you')
Only now can I see that he meant that if Neil was right about Ups, it was probably because he was bussing him. Crapola.

I would have said Silverbullet if he managed to be around today, getting like one vote all game from Nevermind (for causing some topic of discussion? wtf?), though that would have been largely WIFOM.

My gut says Nevermind and Yoenit. Yoenit has pretty much coasted the whole game.

Nevermind claimed he was lurking before because he was busy with school and sports. He has remained busy with an exact sort of consistency, admitting he is lurking, but always posting enough to avoid serious attention or replacement.

In my pre-emptive defense, I mentioned those things about Razgriz because they were good reasons. I didn't make-up things up or use bad reasons for those cases. Silverbullet obviously voted in all the mislynches, and hammered Raz. I haven't been very "on" this game and have made some mistakes. But obviously, being where we are now, every townie in this game has made mistakes.

[Civil Scum]

Getting lynches isn't destructive. It's constructive.

Also, lynching townies doesn't make one scum anymore than lynching scum makes someone a townie.

I god damn knew it was you yesterday Yoenit!

[Civil Scum]

Civil and neil are my pics for the moment.

Feel free to put some weight behind this whenever you get the time.

I believe that Nevermind has been lurking intentionally.

[Civil Scum]

You're driving me crazy because you don't post enough content to be able to get a proper read on you.

Civil and neil are my pics for the moment.

Never would probably replace one of them if he bothered to play the game.

This doesn't seem to concern you as much as it should imo. Being LyLo and being as Nevermind could very well be scum. A quick ISO will reveal that he has been very interested in voting for townies all game. Although we can obviously see that townies regularly make the same error.


Neil, you're continual soft-claiming of 'cop' while quickly trying to run a lynch through is not good for the town. Firstly, all it would take is one townie who "missed it" and then we've blown it. Nevermind that you have all but stated it frankly. But now's abouts the time you either clearly claim cop outright/official-like, or you say you were messing around. And then we can go from there. I'm sure some of us will have questions for you at that point.

To tell you the truth, I'm initially skeptical. I don't think you would have risked soft-claiming right before the end of D-2 if you were really the cop.

Also, I've been somewhat doubtful of us having a cop when we consider the scum's N-1 choice. That night they had no reason to doubt VC's claim of doctor (and they obviously didn't). So to kill him makes good sense if the scum are goon-goon (ie- no cop in the game), and to just be done with the whole PR thing. But, if they are goon-roleblocker, then that NK was a very poorly calculated move. They passed up a chance to simply block VC and take a stab at killing the cop. Which also leaves in VC as a D-2 mislynch prospect, and a general source of confusion and distraction. Given the player's here (who are MORE than competent), I find it unlikely that the scum would have made that error. I find it even more unlikely that the error was "made" intentionally to cast doubt on a real cop's later claim.

So, that VC was immediately killed after claiming realistically suggests to me that we are probably dealing with goon-goon scums, and that we have to be EXTREMELY careful about a cop claim. And I'm not sure why I should believe you. Assuming that you are claiming cop. Which it is pretty obvious that you are soft-claiming.

[Civil Scum]

I'm not about to weigh it soley on that, and possibly reward the mafia for making an obvious error, but I'm also not about to blindly go onboard with a mysterious half-claimed cop.


Nevermind's consitent lurking has bothered me.

Civil Scum, who is either scum or an extremely destructive townie, being the driving force behind both the Olinea and the Raz mislynch.

Interesting. I'd say that Neil had as much, if not more, to do with the Raz lynch then me. I was planning on going after you, but Neil's posts temporarily convinced me not to. Particualrly when he told Raz that he thought the only reason we had let him slide and get that far in the game was because he was getting lenient treatment bacause of his age. I thought it sounded especially genuine at the time.

How you could try to attribute Raz's lynch primarily to me is very confusing...AND suspicious.

Yoenit bothers me.

I still very much dislike Caterpillar switching her thoughts around about the Olinea lynch and how it relates to me. That is still a big mark against her.

You're friggin all suspects right now if you ask me.

[Civil Scum]

Neil's cop claim my question is, if he's telling the truth, with how he was acting yesterday why didn't he get roleblocked last night? Post #792 practically screamed "I'm the cop".

It goes along with them immediately killing VC. It could be sub-spectacular play on their part, or it could be that Neil isn't the cop. If I were scum I would have killed Neil outright for his one comment about Razgriz. Guarenteed. Done. I don't know how they missed that. And all of D-2 he sounded like he might have been the cop.


Neil: D-2, were you also thinking that I was probably not scum? When did that come about?

Why did you make those choices? What were your thoughts about who to pick? And what did you think the the results would mean for your reads on other players?

Did you breadcrumb besides your comment about Razgriz's chances of being the cop?

I looked at Silver night one, and he came up town. I didn't want to give it a dead give-away, so I decided to continue with my normal train of thought (leaving Silver as a possible suspect)

Could you, off the top of your head and without looking at your old posts, give us some of your thoughts about times you made a concious decision in posting to do this. So that we know you aren't explaining away any contradiction of this with one sentence.

Therefore I think you are more responsible for the Raz lynch then Neill, who completely backed off when Raz got to L-1. Note, backing off at that point is actually quite scummy.

I didn't think that was scummy at all and basically had the take on it that Neil claims he had. That he had already made himself very clear and he hadn't reconsidered or changed his mind.

I still don't think I was the driving force behind that lynch. You seem pretty scummy to me atm, which makes me believe Neil. Or a "point" for believing Neil and lynching you or Caterpillar.

which actually is the exact reason I didn't claim Cop.

I thought you wouldn't have claimed yet becuase you wanted to get one more investiagtion to have the game settled and determined. That's actually probably the only explanation I would accept for that.

Which brings me to the conclusion that one of you three are scum

Yes, obviously this was a strange comment.

Where did I switch my thoughts?

I know you tried explaining it earlier but I didn't totally buy it. When you characterized Olinea being lynched out of impatience, not lynched because of his scumminess, despite saying that previously and saying that you thought it made me look town.

I've been trying to get [Nevermind] to post more for a while with no luck.

Where? I hadn't noticed that at all.

Well, my vote will be based off of whether or not I think Neil is telling the truth, obviously. If he's telling the truth then I know who the scums are.

[Civil Scum]

Caterpillar: You haven't mentioned Yoenit very much this game. Just once in quoting, as far as I can see. And then telling him that it was okay for him to use partner speculation D-1, but not okay when I did it. Question- what do you think about Yoenit this game?

Yoenit: Same question. But what do you think about Caterpillar?

Ignoring Neil's claim for a moment, both of you.

[Civil Scum]

I know you havn't said much about Yoenit. What's your gut feeling on him then?

Hurry back

[Civil Scum]

Well, Neil's answers are reasonable, though a little more skeletal than I was hoping for, or to give me a tremendous amount of confidence.

I looked at Silver night one, and he came up town. I didn't want to give it a dead give-away, so I decided to continue with my normal train of thought (leaving Silver as a possible suspect)

I didn't ask about this very clearly.

I meant- if you are lying about being the cop, there might be posts we could find where you appeared to be suspiocious of Silver D-2, despite having a town investigation on him.
So if you were lying, you would obviously say the above quote which would explain away any instance of this happening in your posts.

What I meant was, assuming you are the cop and knew Silver was a townie on D-2, were there times when you intentionally and mindfully spoke about being suspicious or

uncertain

of Silver?

If you explained any times you did that off the top of head and they look legitimate and verifiable in rereading, then that is a good thing. On the flip side, if you just explained past contradicitons of your investigations (which I'm not saying there are right now), then that is bad. (ie- 'Anything I said about Silver being suspicious or not cleared was to not give myself away'). This could easily be the truth, it is also the easiest way to account for any apparent contradictions we might find in that area.

So I'll say this, I believe I did multiple times.

Believe or did?

[Civil Scum]

Reading Neil's and Yoenit's ISO's.

For the time being, to be offical and like,

Fos: Yoenit & Fos: Caterpillar

They, Yoenit mostly, seem too quickly onboard with "agreeing with Civil" that we shouldn't immediately believe Neil's claim. Yoenit especially sounds like he came to that conclusion real quickly.

[Civil Scum]

I see your point Civil, I just don't think it'd be wise for the cop to eliminate himself right now. Giving a cop for a scum is good, but if the cop doesn't have any good leads, we wind up only losing a cop with no real leads for tomorrow. Plus, we give the scum a chance to kill him tonight. Now if the cop does have a scum read, I agree, he should out himself. But with how everything has gone lately, I highly doubt he does.

This is either +10 points for believing Neil's cop claim
OR
Something he would say because neither he nor his scum buddy had come under serious scrutiny from any single player. Which would probably mean that it's Neil & Nevermind or Neil/Yoenit. All 3 of which have largely escaped suspicion for the majority of the game.

I'm really having a difficult time deciding who to believe here.

BUT, Neil did mention more than once the idea that a cop should come out if they had a scum-read, but not yet if they had only gotten town reads. This is pretty consistent with what he now claims to have experienced as the cop. That a lot of his play tends to line up with his claim leads me to believe it. Although it is possible that some of it was a stroke of luck, or that he has been setting-up and carefully planning a cop claim for some time.

[Civil Scum]

So I guess I'll wait for Caterpillar to get back, and for Nevermind to post more.

That should only be like 3 days or something.

[Civil Scum]

Still reading a little more before I put my vote down.

I'd almost rather vote Yoenit first. But that still means I trust Neil, and either way, would end up losing later rather than sooner.

[Civil Scum]

...but decided to postpone posting it to see how caterpillar would respond to the question asked by Neil.

He

didn't do so and instead goes VLA for 4 days. How convenient.

... till I have seen caterpillars reaction to the vote on

him

Not sure that's working on me...

[Civil Scum]

Alright. Screw it, I don't think Neil is lying about this.

vote: Catterpillar

[Civil Scum]

Damn it... well played you two.

Your claim matched up with quite a few things you had said during the game Neil. Had me fooled. There were those other things, VC dying, that you never got killed or blocked even N-2. But I didn't think you'd have been able to play so loudly and loosley on your first game. Also, your reaction to Raz flipping town did NOT sit well with me. I honestly cannot tell you why I let all those things slide.

Even if we had killed Yoenit first (and then you would have blatantly chainsawed for him a couple of times), we still would have been trusting you at that point, and then I'd have gone along lynching Catterpillar.

I've only lost games when someone is believed to be a cop. And so far, they never have been.

My town record gets even worse... haha

Though, I bet I could spot you from now on. I want a rematch!

A lot of your posts and such had a lot of parts that just didn't make any sense. I thought you were town, so I just assumed you were thinking in strange/confused ways.

For the record, I was fairly sure that Yoenit was scum by the end of the game. And I have no CLUE as to how catterpillar never even mentioned his name more than once. When she replaced even, he was the SINGLE player she did not offer comments on.

And I have to say that I thought that Raz was even MORE scummier than Olinea was XD

[Civil Scum]

Damn, I seriously did like half the scum's work this game

[Civil Scum]

Very kind of you Olinea but I'd be in-clined to de-cline the award.

Good attempt in a losing effort perhaps, but I had everything I needed to refute Neil's claim and I didn't put it together. My overall town read on him interferred with everything.

Bouncing off the wall like a bat!

[Civil Scum]

Haha maybe no one... we all got whupped!

There were a lot of things unusual and wrong with Neil's claim, but on the whole there were also plenty of consistencies and overall his play was pretty convincing.
If I had a time machine, one thing I would do real quickly is show up in October for 1 minute and vote for Neil!