Newbie 1010 (Game Over)

[Civil Scum]

I'm not about to weigh it soley on that, and possibly reward the mafia for making an obvious error, but I'm also not about to blindly go onboard with a mysterious half-claimed cop.


Nevermind's consitent lurking has bothered me.

Civil Scum, who is either scum or an extremely destructive townie, being the driving force behind both the Olinea and the Raz mislynch.

Interesting. I'd say that Neil had as much, if not more, to do with the Raz lynch then me. I was planning on going after you, but Neil's posts temporarily convinced me not to. Particualrly when he told Raz that he thought the only reason we had let him slide and get that far in the game was because he was getting lenient treatment bacause of his age. I thought it sounded especially genuine at the time.

How you could try to attribute Raz's lynch primarily to me is very confusing...AND suspicious.

Yoenit bothers me.

I still very much dislike Caterpillar switching her thoughts around about the Olinea lynch and how it relates to me. That is still a big mark against her.

You're friggin all suspects right now if you ask me.

[Yoenit]

@ Civil, even though you were not directly responsible for putting raz at L-1, you where attacking him quite hard once he got there. If you don't remember, reread page 31-33. Therefore I think you are more responsible for the Raz lynch then Neill, who completely backed off when Raz got to L-1. Note, backing off at that point is actually quite scummy.

Speaking of Neill, your "I would rather not say" was painfully obvious. I gotta agree with Civil here, but I am more then willing to hear you out if really want to claim cop.

[neil1113]

Yoenit:

I didn't "back off" of Raz when he got to L-1. I had already laid my case out against him, and he provided no defense. I really needed not say anything else? The case was there and made, and there was nothing disputing it. Looking back through the case, I still think I'd have voted him twice over if I had the chance. Obviously, now that I know he's town (which still confuses me in my honest opinion), I'm going to be looking elsewhere.

Civil:

I completely understand that, which actually is the exact reason I didn't claim Cop. If you'd like to know, I am a cop. I looked at Silver night one, and he came up town. I didn't want to give it a dead give-away, so I decided to continue with my normal train of thought (leaving Silver as a possible suspect) just so that the scum weren't hinted to me. Night two, I looked at Nevermind. He also, was town (believe it or not.) So here's my train:

Townies that are confirmed (to me):
Myself
Nevermind
-- Due to death --
Silver
Oli
Vincius Chaim
Raz

Others:
Civil
Yoenit
CP

Which brings me to the conclusion that one of you three are scum. I don't believe Civil is good enough to pull off the mask that he'd had to have played this whole game if he was scum, which leaves me with Yoenit and CP, though if one of them don't come out scum, we lose. So Civil, if you really want to make such a case against me, so be it. But mark my words for after you do:

I. Am. Not. Scum.

[Yoenit]

Others:
Civil
Yoenit
CP

Which brings me to the conclusion that one of you three are scum. I don't believe Civil is good enough to pull off the mask that he'd had to have played this whole game if he was scum, which leaves me with Yoenit and CP, though if one of them don't come out scum, we lose. So Civil, if you really want to make such a case against me, so be it. But mark my words for after you do:

I. Am. Not. Scum.

There are two scum, so either two of us are scum or you are lying. I can take of only one reason for this mistake: You are the second scum yourself.

[Catterpillar]

Civil and neil are my pics for the moment.

Feel free to put some weight behind this whenever you get the time.

I'll explain it in my next post after I've replied to stuff

I believe that Nevermind has been lurking intentionally.

But we have no way of knowing. Which drives me nuts, I've been trying to get him to post more for a while with no luck.

catterpillar, apart from me being in this game, is there anything specifically you're mad about?

The fact that you don't post and lurk so it's impossible to get a read on you, perhaps? Which I did say.
I am sorry that that post came off so ragey, like I said I'm sick and really should have just gone to bed without posting it.

Well the CP - Nevermind encounter seems extremely forced (or rehearsed)... It seems like CP is intentionally trying to get an accusation (by Nevermind) off of her, though it was quite obvious it was just speculation and with no real proof or evidence supporting Never's claim. That seems as Raz put, "paranoid" except in this case it really does. How could Pillar make such an outright disrespectful and rude response to Never's accusations, without proving anything but instead trying to shift the playing field to might I say, arguably the two most active people in the game. Funny.

Never's accusations? He just named me as one of his two picks, I wouldn't call that an accusation, if he comes up with a case I will reply to it. I realise it was rude (much ruder than I intended, as I said above I'm sorry I should have waited till I wasn't feeling like crap to post) but his inactivity is a fact and not being able to get a read on him because of this is frustrating in the extreme.

You're driving me crazy because you don't post enough content to be able to get a proper read on you.

Civil and neil are my pics for the moment.

Never would probably replace one of them if he bothered to play the game.

This doesn't seem to concern you as much as it should imo. Being LyLo and being as Nevermind could very well be scum. A quick ISO will reveal that he has been very interested in voting for townies all game. Although we can obviously see that townies regularly make the same error.

That whole post was about how irritated I was that I can't get a read on him due to lack of content, I thought the fact that I am very bothered by it was clear.

I still very much dislike Caterpillar switching her thoughts around about the Olinea lynch and how it relates to me. That is still a big mark against her.

Where did I switch my thoughts?
I haven't posted my reasoning for my picks yet.

Re: neil's cop claim my question is, if he's telling the truth, with how he was acting yesterday why didn't he get roleblocked last night? Post #792 practically screamed "I'm the cop".

[nevermind]

Some stuff I've been thinking about:
Assuming that neil has a 50% of being scum, and if he was scum, picked his innocent investigation randomly:
probabilitly-wise, from a neutral standpoint, neil has a higher chance of being scum than each of the 3 non-town in his list by around 4 percent.
but given my vt-ness, it brings it makes the probability back to 50% for each person from my viewpoint.

If neil is scum, assuming he also realized the mathematical stuff, (wifom aside) I think him claiming an innocent on me wasn't intended to make me trust him more. It could've been a 1/3 pick of someone other than his partner.
But yeah he might've picked me so I could continue pressing on my two "scumreads" of neil and civil. (i think, i don't remember who i picked exactly) Which could point to the 3rd guy in neil's list, Yoenit, being his partner.
Ehh

Also even if we do lynch correctly today, neil will get blocked and me killed if he's telling the truth. which would leave neil and 2 people he doesn't know innocence of, which wouldn't be very great.

Re: neil's cop claim my question is, if he's telling the truth, with how he was acting yesterday why didn't he get roleblocked last night? Post #792 practically screamed "I'm the cop".

durr idk if the scum got a cop read on neil, wouldn't they nk him so he wouldn't be able to reveal any results? though it probably wouldn't make much of a difference if they chose to block him and still nk silver.

[Civil Scum]

Neil's cop claim my question is, if he's telling the truth, with how he was acting yesterday why didn't he get roleblocked last night? Post #792 practically screamed "I'm the cop".

It goes along with them immediately killing VC. It could be sub-spectacular play on their part, or it could be that Neil isn't the cop. If I were scum I would have killed Neil outright for his one comment about Razgriz. Guarenteed. Done. I don't know how they missed that. And all of D-2 he sounded like he might have been the cop.


Neil: D-2, were you also thinking that I was probably not scum? When did that come about?

Why did you make those choices? What were your thoughts about who to pick? And what did you think the the results would mean for your reads on other players?

Did you breadcrumb besides your comment about Razgriz's chances of being the cop?

I looked at Silver night one, and he came up town. I didn't want to give it a dead give-away, so I decided to continue with my normal train of thought (leaving Silver as a possible suspect)

Could you, off the top of your head and without looking at your old posts, give us some of your thoughts about times you made a concious decision in posting to do this. So that we know you aren't explaining away any contradiction of this with one sentence.

Therefore I think you are more responsible for the Raz lynch then Neill, who completely backed off when Raz got to L-1. Note, backing off at that point is actually quite scummy.

I didn't think that was scummy at all and basically had the take on it that Neil claims he had. That he had already made himself very clear and he hadn't reconsidered or changed his mind.

I still don't think I was the driving force behind that lynch. You seem pretty scummy to me atm, which makes me believe Neil. Or a "point" for believing Neil and lynching you or Caterpillar.

which actually is the exact reason I didn't claim Cop.

I thought you wouldn't have claimed yet becuase you wanted to get one more investiagtion to have the game settled and determined. That's actually probably the only explanation I would accept for that.

Which brings me to the conclusion that one of you three are scum

Yes, obviously this was a strange comment.

Where did I switch my thoughts?

I know you tried explaining it earlier but I didn't totally buy it. When you characterized Olinea being lynched out of impatience, not lynched because of his scumminess, despite saying that previously and saying that you thought it made me look town.

I've been trying to get [Nevermind] to post more for a while with no luck.

Where? I hadn't noticed that at all.

Well, my vote will be based off of whether or not I think Neil is telling the truth, obviously. If he's telling the truth then I know who the scums are.

[Civil Scum]

Caterpillar: You haven't mentioned Yoenit very much this game. Just once in quoting, as far as I can see. And then telling him that it was okay for him to use partner speculation D-1, but not okay when I did it. Question- what do you think about Yoenit this game?

Yoenit: Same question. But what do you think about Caterpillar?

Ignoring Neil's claim for a moment, both of you.

[neil1113]

Yoenit:

"There are two scum, so either two of us are scum or you are lying. I can take of only one reason for this mistake: You are the second scum yourself."

Let me ask you a question, hypothetically. Do you really believe me being scum, that I'd be stupid enough to out myself like this claiming a cop? Trust me, I could come up with better reasons against me then what anyone has stated so far... I knew what this claim would do. I knew the attention it would bring. Obviously (from the first post of the game to now), or well it should be obvious, that I'm fine with attention being brought my way. You should be getting used to my play now.

CP:

I was referring to his message towards you, in which you rebuttled quite hard when there really was nothing against you. Which if I follow my gut, would make me believe you are one of the two scum left.

Also, I can't explain to you how come I didn't get role blocked last night. I really can't. In this position, I'm truly clueless.

Civil:

Neil: D-2, were you also thinking that I was probably not scum? When did that come about?

Truthfully, instinct. Like I said before, I think you're a great teammate, but I don't think you'd be good enough to play the facade that you'd have to play, should you be scum. That said, if we lynch correctly today, there'd only be to viable options left and I have enough faith that you'll be lynched if you are scum.

Civil:

Why did you make those choices? What were your thoughts about who to pick? And what did you think the the results would mean for your reads on other players?

One question at a time (in chronological order):

1. I picked Silver, because of a gut instinct. I picked Nevermind this past night, because I knew he'd be a prime suspect for his lurking.

2. Not sure I understand this question.

3. Process of elimination, to be honest.

Civil:

Did you breadcrumb besides your comment about Razgriz's chances of being the cop?

You know, right now my internet isn't working very well. So I'll say this, I believe I did multiple times. Though it may not have been as many times as I'd have liked, because for a good part of this game I thought you were scum, and I knew you'd be able to pick up on my bread crumbing.

Civil:

Could you, off the top of your head and without looking at your old posts, give us some of your thoughts about times you made a concious decision in posting to do this. So that we know you aren't explaining away any contradiction of this with one sentence.

Again, I'm not sure exactly what you are asking here, so I'm not sure how to answer. Are you asking me to show you the posts, and then explain to you my thoughts behind the posts? Or are you asking me to prove to you my thoughts behind posts... without actually talking about the posts?

Civil:

I thought you wouldn't have claimed yet becuase you wanted to get one more investiagtion to have the game settled and determined. That's actually probably the only explanation I would accept for that.

That was a big part of me not claiming, but it wasn't the main reason. The main reason is I did not want to cause confusion to the town, until need be (like now.) If I had gotten a scum pick, I'd have immediately shared it. But until then, me outing myself as the cop would have had no productivity in the town. And it still doesn't unfortunately, except gives us clear sights of who's town, though unfortunately one of them is dead. The only reason I outed myself here, is because you called for it and if I didn't, you'd probably lead a lynch on me, and we'd lose this game. I did not put so much effort into this game, to lose.

Civil:

Yes, obviously this was a strange comment.

No, it was not a strange comment. It was a conclusion from a "process of elimination." Simply that. As far as where to lead the town right now, I'd say we either go after Yoenit, or CP.

[Catterpillar]

I'm going V/LA for the next 4 days

My picks were mostly gut feeling and to see what the rest of your reactions were since I hadn't said anything much about Yoenit.

[Civil Scum]

I know you havn't said much about Yoenit. What's your gut feeling on him then?

Hurry back

[neil1113]

It seems like our V/LA's are taken at some of the worst possible times... >_> (including my own apparently)

Also, quick everybody lynch CP before she returns!!!! The rascal...

^^^^ Just kidding. Like Civil said, hurry back.

[Civil Scum]

Well, Neil's answers are reasonable, though a little more skeletal than I was hoping for, or to give me a tremendous amount of confidence.

I looked at Silver night one, and he came up town. I didn't want to give it a dead give-away, so I decided to continue with my normal train of thought (leaving Silver as a possible suspect)

I didn't ask about this very clearly.

I meant- if you are lying about being the cop, there might be posts we could find where you appeared to be suspiocious of Silver D-2, despite having a town investigation on him.
So if you were lying, you would obviously say the above quote which would explain away any instance of this happening in your posts.

What I meant was, assuming you are the cop and knew Silver was a townie on D-2, were there times when you intentionally and mindfully spoke about being suspicious or

uncertain

of Silver?

If you explained any times you did that off the top of head and they look legitimate and verifiable in rereading, then that is a good thing. On the flip side, if you just explained past contradicitons of your investigations (which I'm not saying there are right now), then that is bad. (ie- 'Anything I said about Silver being suspicious or not cleared was to not give myself away'). This could easily be the truth, it is also the easiest way to account for any apparent contradictions we might find in that area.

So I'll say this, I believe I did multiple times.

Believe or did?

[Civil Scum]

Reading Neil's and Yoenit's ISO's.

For the time being, to be offical and like,

Fos: Yoenit & Fos: Caterpillar

They, Yoenit mostly, seem too quickly onboard with "agreeing with Civil" that we shouldn't immediately believe Neil's claim. Yoenit especially sounds like he came to that conclusion real quickly.

[Yoenit]

I made this draft yesterday, but decided to postpone posting it to see how caterpillar would respond to the question asked by Neil. He didn't do so and instead goes VLA for 4 days. How convenient.

Civil:

Yes, obviously this was a strange comment.

No, it was not a strange comment. It was a conclusion from a "process of elimination." Simply that. As far as where to lead the town right now, I'd say we either go after Yoenit, or CP.

You should have concluded 2 of us 3 are scum instead of only 1 out of 3. I am not scum, therefore Catterpillar and Civil have to be the scum pair or you are lying. I would put my money on the latter as Catterpillar + Civil is an unlikely combination. That nothing happened to you last night does not fit with that pair, unless Civil is making mistakes on purpose just so he can point them out the next day (don't think so).

But who could your scum partner be?

- Civil: unlikely, for he forced you to claim cop and was very critical. If he was your partner he could have played it much better and gotten a mislynch out of the village by now.
- Nevermind: WIFOM argument for putting him up as your "fake" scan, possible.
- Catterpillar: Is being accused now together with me, but you could shift off and focus on me from now on. (or do a very nasty teamkill and get him lynched so you look townie).

With this in mind, I no longer think Civil is scum. He would either have killed/blocked Neil last night or wouldn't have forced you to claim today if he was. Neil is scum and Catterpillar/Nevermind is a 50-50.

[Yoenit]

First of all,

Speaking of Neill, your "I would rather not say" was painfully obvious. I gotta agree with Civil here, but I am more then willing to hear you out if really want to claim cop.

referred to this section of a post you made a few hours earlier.

Neil, you're continual soft-claiming of 'cop' while quickly trying to run a lynch through is not good for the town. Firstly, all it would take is one townie who "missed it" and then we've blown it. Nevermind that you have all but stated it frankly. But now's abouts the time you either clearly claim cop outright/official-like, or you say you were messing around. And then we can go from there. I'm sure some of us will have questions for you at that point.

To tell you the truth, I'm initially skeptical. I don't think you would have risked soft-claiming right before the end of D-2 if you were really the cop.

They, Yoenit mostly, seem too quickly onboard with "agreeing with Civil" that we shouldn't immediately believe Neil's claim. Yoenit especially sounds like he came to that conclusion real quickly.

Probably because I found his yesterday "he is not a cop" already quite obvious and I couldn't imagine the scum missed it. Then when he posted "I would rather not say" today it was so obvious it was better just to make a decent claim. I agreed with you Civil because I had the same idea, not because your argument convinced me or something.

[Yoenit]

meh, quote tag fail. I am sure it is still readable though

[Civil Scum]

I see your point Civil, I just don't think it'd be wise for the cop to eliminate himself right now. Giving a cop for a scum is good, but if the cop doesn't have any good leads, we wind up only losing a cop with no real leads for tomorrow. Plus, we give the scum a chance to kill him tonight. Now if the cop does have a scum read, I agree, he should out himself. But with how everything has gone lately, I highly doubt he does.

This is either +10 points for believing Neil's cop claim
OR
Something he would say because neither he nor his scum buddy had come under serious scrutiny from any single player. Which would probably mean that it's Neil & Nevermind or Neil/Yoenit. All 3 of which have largely escaped suspicion for the majority of the game.

I'm really having a difficult time deciding who to believe here.

BUT, Neil did mention more than once the idea that a cop should come out if they had a scum-read, but not yet if they had only gotten town reads. This is pretty consistent with what he now claims to have experienced as the cop. That a lot of his play tends to line up with his claim leads me to believe it. Although it is possible that some of it was a stroke of luck, or that he has been setting-up and carefully planning a cop claim for some time.

[Yoenit]

Something he would say because neither he nor his scum buddy had come under serious scrutiny from any single player. Which would probably mean that it's Neil & Nevermind or Neil/Yoenit. All 3 of which have largely escaped suspicion for the majority of the game.

What about Neil/Caterpillar?

[neil1113]

Alrighty, before I address Scum #1 = Yoenit, let me address Civil:

Well, Neil's answers are reasonable, though a little more skeletal than I was hoping for, or to give me a tremendous amount of confidence.

I'm sorry man, I wish I could've given you some solid answers but in a game like this, you really don't have much to cling too. Though I'm glad you did catch on later in your post to my hints.

What I meant was, assuming you are the cop and knew Silver was a townie on D-2, were there times when you intentionally and mindfully spoke about being suspicious or uncertain of Silver?

Yes there was. On several occasions I believe, I've tried to continue to put Silver in the "scum" light. And to clarify, I did this for several reasons.

1. I didn't want anyone to realize I had something on Silver (town read) by backing off abruptly. But more importantly:

2. I did not want scum to kill him off during the night. I figured if I could make it seem like Silver was a probable mislynch, he'd be left alone. Then when it came down to it, I could clear him and whoever else I chose to investigate later. Though I was really banking on Raz being scum.

Believe or did?

What? I said I believe I did multiple times. Meaning I know I did at least a couple, but I believe I did more. At the time my internet wasn't working great and I was slightly busy, so I left it with that statement because I didn't go back to check.

Now with that said, here are my statements concerning Silver. Make of them as you please.

Post 76:

And there is Silver's random post.

Curiosity is beckoning me Silver...

This is where I was attempting to hint towards looking at him. That way I could point to it later. Though I realize, it could easily be missed and now that I reread it, it may or may not have been effective.

Post 83:

Right now, my suspicions are Raz, Silver, and something about Yoenit just isn't rubbing right with me.

I had already mentioned Silver and Raz as my top suspects at the moment. This post is what made me think I couldn't just back off of Silver. I had made my commitement to follow through, so I attempted a lynch on Raz with the intention of looking up Silver the following night. Then Yoenit was also creeping in, though I'll address that in a minute when I make my case concerning him.

Post 84:

Anyways Silver, I don't like the odds of you, Raz, or CP as of currently, while Yoenit is also on my watch list.

Again my hinting of who I'm going to search out at night. This may have been overkill, but I knew this time would come where I'd have to point this out.

Post 85:

Truthfully, the MAIN reason, yes. But the interactions as a whole makes me curious as I don't believe there's been much talk between you two. Though I will admit, I looked at only a few posts. Which is why I'm questioning you, not voting for you. If I'm wrong, correct me.

My response to Silver as to WHY I'm curious about him still. Read this post very carefully. Notice the "Which is why I'm questioning you, not voting for you" part. I saw the chance to defend me looking into him, without actually having to place a vote on him. Read that now, with the idea that I already know he's town at this point, as this is day 2's start.

Post 92:

Silver, you've got an excellent point. Though as far as I've seen, Nevermind still has yet to post anything of value in this phase, though he's been spotted several times lurking by several different people... But as far as I'm concerned, I really don't see anyone more of a value to be lynched then Raz right now. If you do, please by all means point them out.

This is where I decided the next phase would matter pretty well, so I was trying to ease my suspicions off of him, without immediately making him look townie again. I must've failed, because he died later that night... R.I.P. Silver.

Now, let me clarify that I did not go through the hints I laid out that I WAS the Cop, just that I targetted Silver, and then the times in which I pointed Silver out for the reasonings stated above. Now right now, I think I'm going to remain silent about Yoenit. I'd like CP to come back, and I'd like to hear CP and Yoenit discuss some things first before I lay my case out. Though like I said, I'm 90% positive about who the scum team is in this game now.

[Civil Scum]

So I guess I'll wait for Caterpillar to get back, and for Nevermind to post more.

That should only be like 3 days or something.

[neil1113]

So we just sit here and do nothing... again, because somebody decides to take a vacation? Forget that, Civil if you're not scum, then Yoenit and CP are.

Vote: CP

I don't have the patience to let this game die again. If CP is not scum, you and Yoenit will jump on this and end the game. If CP is scum, then my vote could stay here till she gets back to defend herself. Call this what you want, but I'm tired of the game dying down. I came on here to play, and that's what I intend on doing. I'm not losing this game to the scum, sorry.

[neil1113]

Oops, let me rephrase that.

VOTE: Catterpillar

[nevermind]

eh not sure what to think, voting seems a risky thing to do, and somehow my suspicions are on Yoenit and Catterpillar now. I don't know how that happened, maybe someone else convinced me, not sure.

Yeah so neil is basically like either scum, or betting on Catterpillar being scum.
But maybe scum aren't good at quicklynching and things will get more complicated.

[Civil Scum]

Still reading a little more before I put my vote down.

I'd almost rather vote Yoenit first. But that still means I trust Neil, and either way, would end up losing later rather than sooner.