Newbie 1010 (Game Over)

[silverbullet999]

RAZ IS AT L-1

[silverbullet999]

why did nobody else catch that he was at L-1...? -_-

[Razgriz]

Wtf, I get L-1 when I am V/LA? Wows. Excuse me while I re-read

[Razgriz]

First

Civil makes sense, I finally understand.

You didn't even give reasons or an arguement, just piggybacked and bandwagoned with his scumbuddy perhaps?
Moving on,

Razgriz: Can you explain why you had a "bad feeling" as you went to hammer Olinea?

Yez I can.
I had a bad feeling, because, although he intented to self hammer (>_>) I didn't have the overall gut feeling that he was scum and I wasn't totally sure that he was, but his lynch was inevitable.

I realized now in rereading that section, that the reason Raz got so worked up over it, was because it was such a ridiculous, terrible, outlandish, unbelievable point, but Neil was right and had him pegged. That's why it bothered him so much, and why he had scuk a vigorous reaction to it.

Wow. I bet that you decided to try this overnight in the game to make sure that the town would mislynch again. Townspeeps if you read this than you should realize that Civil Scum has been manipulating the town this WHOLE TIME and caused the mislynch of Oli. Oli flipped town and Civil pushed HARD for his lynch. Guess what ladies and gents of this fair town, Civil made us mislynch and manipulate us beyond belief, further more he was the one leading Oli's lynch and Oli flipped town so that means Civil was able to rid of his BIGGEST opponent.
VOTE: Civil Scum

[Catterpillar]

why did nobody else catch that he was at L-1...? -_-

Um, because he isn't? I count L-2.
Civil, nevermind and neil have votes on him I can't find a fourth.

[Catterpillar]

Except I am fail and still in a day 1 mindset. That is L-1.

I need sleep that isn't disturbed my my cat.

[silverbullet999]

Catterpie... pretty sure you just proved to me that you are either a blonde or a brunette.

[Catterpillar]

I am a hairless catterpillar. I am yellow. If you hadn't slept for more than an hour at a time for two weeks you would miss things too.

[neil1113]

I could say so much to Civil, but I'd rather not waist my breath right now. If Raz flips town, I'd truly be shocked. But for Civil to accuse me of being scummy should Raz flip town, then the argument would be likewise against Oli being town and Civil being scum because Oli flipped town. It's a circular argument that could go round and round, one in which I have no desire nor patience to partake in. So Civil, bash me as much as you'd like, your opinion means very little to me at the moment.

[Civil Scum]

Well, Raz just threw up a nice big strawman argument.

I'm not sure why Caterpillar seems to think my strong-arming the Olinea wagon gets me a bunch of townie points. Yet Raz seems to think it's only an indication of my manipulative scum tactics.

But for Civil to accuse me of being scummy should Raz flip town, then the argument would be likewise against Oli being town and Civil being scum because Oli flipped town.

Not really, I still looked around and was considering several wagons over the coutrse of D-1, I didn't by-and-large pursue the same lynch. Also, everyone's different. A double-standard in mafia is not so clear-cut. If two people give different, but generally well thought out reasons for their voting for someone, you may like one person's reasoning or their vote better than the other guy's, (based on other things they've done that game, or based on something in their personality, any number of reaons really why you could still rank them or order them in your mind), even if their one example of behavior is nearly identical. I'm glad you didn't go much beyond this, because it looks like the beginning of a false argument. Though I am surprised that no one seems to have given me any scum-points for that unfortunate sequence of events.

I also fail to see how it is "circular." If you mean it can go back and forth, it would, but from the view of other players, I think one of us would edge out the other person in the argument. Cause that has to happen, they wouldn't judge our argument, or behaviors or play as being identical in that regard. It's just not possible.

It's not something I would just say in trying to claim this, I would find plenty of examples where you ignored other decent suspects and lines of questioning in favor of keeping pressure on Raz.

That said, I'm rather satisfied with a Raz lynch after his last post. He made no strong attempt at defending himself against any of his accusers, and instead chose to vote for me with a pretty weak argument and really shaky reasoning.

[Civil Scum]

Civil made us mislynch and manipulate us beyond belief... further more he was the one leading Oli's lynch and Oli flipped town so that means Civil was able to rid of his BIGGEST opponent.

First, Raz, you did hammer, so you also made us mislynch. And for the record, long before the lynch, Olinea said he was practically convinced that I was a townie.

[Civil Scum]

If you think it's obvious that I "manipulated the town into that lynch", why'd you wait until now to suddenly say that?

[Catterpillar]

Sorry read up isn't happening tonight, I desperately need sleep. If I get my assignment done earlyish tomorrow it will happen in 15 hpurs. If this keeps up I'll replace out.

[Razgriz]

If you think it's obvious that I "manipulated the town into that lynch", why'd you wait until now to suddenly say that?

Because I realized that when I read your post that I quoted from, not during the lunch/lynch/hanging/umm whatever makes you happy.

Civil made us mislynch and manipulate us beyond belief... further more he was the one leading Oli's lynch and Oli flipped town so that means Civil was able to rid of his BIGGEST opponent.

First, Raz, you did hammer, so you also made us mislynch. And for the record, long before the lynch, Olinea said he was practically convinced that I was a townie.

Yes, I did hammer, because his lynch seemed inevitable, and it turns out it helped catch scum likes you. So what if he said that? You still pushed hard as hell for his lynch. I'm suprised I didn't catch it sooner, but hey I caught it now

[Civil Scum]

It's a circular argument that could go round and round, one in which I have no desire nor patience to partake in.

Actually, though I know you called something else "circular" earlier inaccurately/inappropriately (probably cause you think it sounds pretty), a circular argument or circular reasoning is when the reasoning is presented as a logical chain or progression, when in reality the truthfulness of the individual parts of the argument are dependent on the truthfulness of other parts of the argument.

-There you go, you learned something just now, I can't see how you can say THAT was a jeans-pants waist of time.

So Civil, bash me as much as you'd like, your opinion means very little to me at the moment.

Just thought I'd send some back your way

Though your two first and main suspects were Ups (Catepillar) and Raz, and you may very well have been right the whole time. You've played a really good game, though I've come to take issue with your playstyle instinct to attack other people's arguments instead of reinforcing your own. Though that too, seems to have worked this time out. But sometimes, and I know this from experience, it can be a less effective way of getting a your lynch because it can turn other players off to you arguments. Just my opinion and feedback.

So what if he said that?

Err, umm, cause that's not what -you- just said.

And it's not about "catching" it, surely you must have been aware that this had taken place, when it was happening and during the night while you were thinking things over... so you must have already "caught" it unless you've been sleep-walking for ten days. It's that you never found it so incredibly scummy until just now after I voted you.

[silverbullet999]

-the blonde catter pie
no you cannot replace out

Also nevermind if you'd like to question raz more.. that would be nice.

Also neil you are mean lol.

[Razgriz]

No Civil, I never caught it until you made that post. Stop twisting my words around

[neil1113]

First, let me put the disclaimer on this post that this has NOTHING to do with this game. So please, do not consider me trying to "befriend" anyone to win this game, or "earn" anyone's trust by this. With that said:

I'd like to apologize to Civil. The past few days have been rough as a friend of mine committed suicide. So I haven't exactly been in a logical state of mind. And as Silver pointed out, I was flat out mean to you. Not exactly to your points, but to you as a person. That is uncalled for, and unnecessary. So if you'd like to make any points to me now, I'd gladly answer if you really think I'm the best person to zone out as scum in this game.

[Razgriz]

I'm sorry for your loss...damnit...

[Civil Scum]

Ah man, it's alright. I considered us even after my last post.

[Civil Scum]

Raz, I don't mean to tell you what "you've done wrong" with this post, I mean to epxlain that this is part of why we think you are so scummy.

Now, how dare you say I'm twisting your words. Catterpillar thought that my pushing the wagon was townish. There must be reasons -why- you both interpreted my behavior so differently. Catterpillar should be able to explain somethings why he would think that, just like there must be reasons that make you see it differently. "You're a scum who's manipulated us into lynching townies, why? Because you are a scum who's manipulated us into lynching townies", is not acceptable.

Everytime someone has pushed an argument on you, rather than defend yourself from the points and accusations, you have responded with a flimsy vote. You did it to me (twice I think), you did it to Neil, and you did it to VC.

But remember what you told Neil, just like you told me now?

Now this paranioa along with other scumtells and reasons stated in my anaylasis have now put you #1 on my scum list.

Not because you voted me

...

Since you've now done it about 4 times, the odds that it was just a coincidence that all the different times that you "caught" things, or "picked up tells" have been immediately after someone votes for you. Those odds are not in your favor, believe me.

In that same post, you also dismiss all Neil's previous points and the one's that he brought up two posts before yours. Saying that his whole case was bad, and apparently not requiring you to make any sort of defense, because of the one RV-list point. Which was by far not the bed rock of the case. All game, instead of defending yourself, amswering people's questions, and explaining yourself, you choose instead to vote back at the person. And then you lie about it as you do it.
viewtopic.php?p=2514501#p2514501


Silver, Neil. It's probably going to be 1 of us 3 that die tonight, so I think we should agree that no matter who dies, we need to lynch Caterpillar the next day, after Raz today.
Game, set, match

[Civil Scum]

I should add this. This post of Neil's was literally two posts above Razgriz's linked voting-post. It becomes quite relevant to this after point 4. Razgriz does't even mention the rest of this in his response to the post. Everything besides the RV-list (all the stuff about Ups and Raz) doesn't even get mentioned.
viewtopic.php?p=2514414#p2514414

I wouldn't be surprised if Caterpillar has spent so much time poo-poo'ing scum-pair specualtion this game because, in replacing, she saw how linked Ups and Raz had been.

[Yoenit]

So, I am back and we have Raz at L-1. Time to respond to some stuff

You do realize you just practically speaking, said it's better to kill off a townie then to no lynch for "odds" of catching scum. Seriously? Do I even need to say anything?

I am not sure if you are mathematically challenged or just pretending not to understand. Assuming the latter, which gives you a shitload of scum points. Maybe somebody will explain later, maybe not. I don't care, back on tuesday

This post was made out of frustration. I was about to leave on a weekend trip when I saw daybreak was early. Neil was making an incorrect argument so I made a little post to explain it (which actually took me 10 minutes of typing and tweaking orso, I don't type very fast). I could have done other things with the limited amount of time I had, but I decided to be helpful and point out a mistake. And what do I get as a response? Some kind of appeal to emotion which is totally wrong and seems to imply I am an idiot. I knew Neill was not stupid (I named him as possible scum mastermind earlier), so why did he react in such a way? Only thing I could think off was that he was doing so on purpose, or had some kind of special condition which leaves him incapable to understand any form of math (you never know, I had this terrible rant against somebody who seemed to be incapable of reading a graph once, only to find out the guy was blind and using text to speech conversion) Pretending not to understand it would be really weird thing for a townie to do, hence it giving him scum points. "shitload" was just my frustration speaking. In hindsight it is understandable what is going on here. Sorry for your loss Neill.

You didn't want to vote Olinea, based on that you were so sure VC was scum, and you couldn't see them being scum together... so both of them died and all you've naturally talked about/or mentioned since coming back is your V/LA and a disagreement about no-lynching...something doesn't seem right to me about that.

Like I stated above, I was about to leave on a trip and had limited time (still had to pack my stuff). I could have made a post along the lines of "I don't know what is going on! I really thought VC was scum, but I was wrong! Need to look the thread over again, but X and Y look scummy to me", but decided to clear up a misunderstanding instead and leave the suspicion posts till I got back.

Now, with respect to the current situation:
Lynching Raz seems tempting, but if I hammer him now and he is a townie the scum will make me the scapegoat and lynch me tomorrow (and then we lose the game). Nevermind is conviently on the Raz bandwagon based on Civils argument while at the same time FoSing him (setting him up to take the blame if Raz is town?) I am not sure where Civils suspicion against Caterpillar is coming from, did I miss something?

[Catterpillar]

Catterpillar thought that my pushing the wagon was townish. There must be reasons -why- you both interpreted my behavior so differently. Catterpillar should be able to explain somethings why he would think that, just like there must be reasons that make you see it differently.
....

Silver, Neil. It's probably going to be 1 of us 3 that die tonight, so I think we should agree that no matter who dies, we need to lynch Caterpillar the next day, after Raz today.
Game, set, match

I thought your pushing Olinea so hard was townish because you were

so

certain that he was scum and then he wasn't. There were other people that could easily have been lynched day one yet you were pushing Oli who was scummy as all hell even though he wasn't scum when there were easier mislynches to steer the town towards if you had chosen to but you didn't because Oli was the scummiest person at the time thus you get some town points.

I presume this is because you think me and Raz are a scum pair? Anything I've done myself?

I wouldn't be surprised if Caterpillar has spent so much time poo-poo'ing scum-pair specualtion this game because, in replacing, she saw how linked Ups and Raz had been.

Care to elaborate on this tomorrow? You know, if Raz gets lynched, flips scum and you have something concrete to extrapolate on.
I just really think that speculating about partners when you don't know for sure that one of them is scum in a game like this is stupid and just lets scum know who not to NK.

Doing my reread now.

[bird1111]

Bumping the Vote Count onto the next page.