Newbie 965 (Game Over)

[quadz08]

What's up, everyone? It's game number 1 and I'm excited! Wooooot.

[quadz08]

1. Tucson, Arizona
2. I don't drink soda
3. Somewhat? Not terribly so
4. Calm analysis and rational thinking
5. Yes!
6. No; I think lurking is often seen as a bad thing, when it isn't always. I feel like I might hang back from commenting occasionally if there's nothing that I can add to the conversation.
7. In most circumstances, yes. However, I've seen players lie for the good of town, but they can't tell town, because that would give them away.

Generally, general rules aren't a particularly good idea, in my opinion. Case-by-case is the way to go. Generally.

[quadz08]

@DavidParker:

I don't think it's a big deal he's asking about playstyles. It's a pretty good way to get discussion started, that I've seen in other places. Plus, it gives the more experienced players a chance to help us out, right at the beginning.

[quadz08]

Also,

FoS: DavidParker

. You seem awful confident...

[quadz08]

@NS:

Could you explain why you voted me? You had no explanation of that whatsoever, so I'm a little confused (understandably, I think.)

@DP:

Vote: quadz08

The one player who has given me a "scummy" vibe. His "FoS" on me following another player made it seem as if he's trying too hard to fit in and blend with the town. Obviously, I'm acting like an arrogant jackass and will have attention on me. Hey, get some discussion started, even if it's about how much of an ass I am. He just seemed to deal with this in a scummy kind of way.

I honestly feel like your posting style is unhelpful. If you're not mafia, then you will be of very little help to the town. You're quite sure of yourself, and I can't imagine that that's a positive characteristic in a game like this. I FoS'd you because I don't think that voting this early in the game is terribly productive. And as to the timing of the post, it was 4 posts after Uite's FoS, one of which was a post from you (which served as the main impetus for my FoS, in fact.)

[quadz08]

Yes, I am.

[quadz08]

bw?

[quadz08]

Ah, alright. No, I'm not ready to put a third vote on somebody this early in the day; for now, I'll let mallow and Uite's votes speak for me.

[quadz08]

@AGar:

@quadz - Are you saying you're most suspicious of Davidparker at the moment?

In essence, yes. I explained my reasoning more fully in an earlier post, as I'm sure you're aware.

[quadz08]

4. You may Vote: No Lynch - a simple majority of votes of this type are required to send the game to Night phase without a Lynch.

Unless I'm missing something, it appears to me that we can, in fact, NL. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

[quadz08]

My bad, mallow. I think Wraith was asking for a literal answer, though, so what you said may have been confusing. I know it confused me haha.

[quadz08]

@NS: fair 'nuff. I don't know what comment you're talking about, though.

[quadz08]

ohhhhhhhhhhh. That makes sense now. Gotcha.

[quadz08]

@quadz08
Why are you so reluctant to vote?

It's just very soon in the day, is all. I feel like we're moving very, very quickly, especially for Day 1. But I've never played a forum-based game before, so I could be totally off base with that assumption.

@quadz08
You say you'd rather not have DP no matter what. Although I think he's very scummy, if he turns out to be town I'd rather have him with us than other scum we could have lynched.

When did I say that I'd rather not have DP no matter what? If we find a different player who's more clearly scum than DP, then I'm all for him. Right now, I think (and it seems that many agree) that DP seems to be most scummy. And, as I've said before, even if he's not mafia, his playstyle certainly doesn't seem to be good for town.

Also, this sentence: "if he turns out to be town I'd rather have him with us than other scum we could have lynched," will be true every time we lynch someone. We will never want to lynch a townie (barring strategies that I'm unaware of).

Another reason I don't want to vote for DP yet is because we have yet to hear from dRool. I think the input of someone who will hop in now could be helpful, and besides, he could very well turn out to be that "more clearly scum" person than I talked about.

[quadz08]

that* I talked about. Not than. Sorry haha.

[quadz08]

my reasons include him trying too hard to sit back on the fence. I read his posts from a scum point of view and it makes sense as to how he's trying to play it smart. He knows I'm not scum so he's not jumping onto this bandwagon, he's waiting for other people to justify it, so if he can get involved he's not responsible in any way.

DP, there's plenty of other people who have "justified" this. That statement holds essentially no bearing; I am merely holding back from hammering this early in the game, before all of our players have even shown up.

He seems to point out some obvious points: ie that statement which is always true, and then adds that we should wait for dRool in case he's that "more scummy" person... He's an "experienced player" (whatver the acronym here is), if he's mafia, you have a 0/100 chance he will come in here and do something suspicious when all the heat is on me. Why you would even think he's going to come in here and turn himself into a target makes no sense.

Just because a point is obvious doesn't mean it shouldn't be made, especially when I'm answering someone else's post, directed specifically at me.

Also, I don't have terribly high hopes he'll come in and be scummy; it's a long-shot, and I'm aware. However, that doesn't mean his input wouldn't be valuable, either way.

He's pointing out how many agree with his position, and just can't stick by his own justification.

Rather, I am pointing out how many agree with my position, meaning that not only do I stick by my reasoning, others do as well.

Just browsing through these games, they can just be characterised by people staying as neutral as possible... Which seems to me ridiculous. People all just try analyze critically stuff when there's nothing there. The mafia game at it's core is a guessing game. You have to make guesses and have convictions, if everyone does everything just via neutrality and careful analysis, then you get no where. Every lynch is "justified" and mafia never have any responsibility if they do the same thing the town does. By actually posting a case against someone for little, but doing so that you don't back down, you can learn a lot more than this hurr durr DP is suss for being arrogant etc. This isn't creating any discussion or helping scum hunting at all (unless of course if I am scum). But by focusing on people for reasons people won't agree with you can learn something.

So... you're saying we shouldn't analyze, and make random guesses? That sounds like a plea from someone who knows their play doesn't stand up to analysis to me.

And clearly, that strategy hasn't worked out terribly well for you, as you admit:

THat aside, I think I was too hasty too point out some of my suspicions. Instead of getting the discussion I wanted (And pointing out that I did find quadz to be most suss, although really it wasn't based on much but the impression I got from him) I've just got people asking me to explain myself. Nothing really to help me with my scrum hunting.

Careful analysis only ever hurts the mafia, DP, as far as I'm aware. And I'm far from neutral on this point; I believe I've made that quite clear. I think you should probably be lynched, barring some crazy new information. I'm simply exercising caution by giving time for that information, if it exists, to come out. I doubt anything will, but there's no fault in patience.

[quadz08]

Do we have any information on dRool? Replacement/showing up anytime soon?

[quadz08]

Sorry for the triple post, haha. Uite, I agree with you about people contributing more, so in that spirit:

@Wraith: If you don't think you have good scumdar, and a no-lynch is a viable option, why didn't you unvote? Is it just becuase of AGar's stats? (Which is reasonable, I think.)

@AGar: Where did you get that information on no-lynch stats? Also, how often was mafia lynched as opposed to town?

@NS: You haven't added a whole lot to the discussion. You random-voted, then asked DP to explain himself, and that's essentially it for actual gameplay. It would be super-cool if you could give us some suspicions of yours, especially since you're the most experienced player here.

@silver: You're much in the same realm as NS. You random-voted, then answered a question from Uite about a piece of advice you had given, and that's basically it. You also have voiced no suspicions. I'd like to hear from you the same thing I asked from NS.

(To prevent unnecessary questions, I know I asked about NL's twice, though I seem opposed to one. That just happens to be the best way I can think of to get information from Agar and Wraith.)

[quadz08]

@NS: Sorry, I was going by your designation as IC with the experience thing. And I'll keep this in mind:

I'm leery of your intimation that since I'm 'more experienced' that my opinion should hold more weight. That's a fallacy.

Also, I agree with this:

I'm on the fence about the claim. I could see him trying to 'break' the game out of frustration, but I think we're best served by waiting a bit before speculating too much.

@silver:

Why no vote on anyone? Why so much reluctance to hammer DP?

The same reason Uite unvoted; I just think it's unwise to end the day so early.

@those who see me as scummy:
Can I get an explanation for it? I'm honestly confused as to why that vibe is coming off.

[quadz08]

@silver:

So basically your saying...

"Hey guys I'm scum, but I'm trying to be town, some of you see me for who I really am and I don't know how. Could you tell me how so I'll stop doing it? Kthx!"

Ummm... No. That's not what I'm saying, at all. What I'm saying is "Hey, I'm town, but apparently I'm giving scum signals. What are they, so I know how to defend myself/fix them, so people will get off my back, so we can keep the focus on people who may actually be scum?"

@NS:

@quadz: Who do you currently find scummiest?

That's an immensely difficult question. After reading through the entire game once more, though, I find mallow to be rather eager to lynch, or at least to bandwagon. I personally find bandwagons to be scummy; they give in to the mob mentality, and remove intelligent thought.

You gonna bw on DavidParker? Or do ya need some more evidence?

DP, however, is still tops on my list. His playstyle does seem to have changed, which is a positive, but I don't think he should be let off the hook so quickly. He didn't play well at all at the beginning, and was very excited to incriminate people quickly, without reason. While it is Day 1, and there's only so much we can do by reasoning, that doesn't mean that we should just not use it, as he suggests here:

Just browsing through these games, they can just be characterised by people staying as neutral as possible... Which seems to me ridiculous. People all just try analyze critically stuff when there's nothing there. The mafia game at it's core is a guessing game. You have to make guesses and have convictions, if everyone does everything just via neutrality and careful analysis, then you get no where.

Honestly, though, I'm really unsure. Much like Uite and Wraith, I'm split between DP and Mallow.

Also, I know it hasn't really been that long, but I am with Uite and DP about AGar. It's a concern that no one has a read on him.

If I have to make a vote, right now I'm keeping my suspicions on DP. It's very much an alterable thing, though.

Vote: DavidParker

[quadz08]

@silver: I'm finding it interesting that you haven't answered my question, yet still vote for me. You refute my questions, using circular logic, and provide no evidence of your suspicion.

[quadz08]

@silver: Also, if you have answered my questions and I'm missing it, please quote it for me.

[quadz08]

@silver

So, to summarize your post:
You don't want to say why you find me scummy.
You may not have any evidence anyway.
I'm pushing suspicion on you. (yes, I am, I'm beginning to find you suspicious. Answering a question with another question is an excellent way to

avoid answering questions

.
And, the kicker, your last sentence:

Unless I feel I have a solid case on you and want you dead, I'd rather keep ya in the dark.

So, you don't feel you have a solid case on me, yet you voted me?

DP:
Can you quote when I did that, please? Or give us a post number? Thanks.

[quadz08]

@silver (and all, really):

1. I don't want to say why I find you scummy yet because I don't want you to change up anything to try to avoid continuously doing that.
2. I might just be putting pressure on you to get a better read for all you know, so I may not have any initial evidence. Isn't that what scumhunting is all about?
3. You want me to explain what has made you scummy because you state yourself that you want to act less scummy. You want people to clear you as town from day 1. You want people to scumhunt others and not you. Your question is a scummy question and if I give you the truthful answer it enables you to learn and try to be more townie. Why the frack would I want scum to act more townie?

(This is like the uber noob who in the first game goes, hey everyone I'm town, Tell me if I am acting scummy so I will stop acting scummy).

4. 5 votes to lynch... I highly doubt that will occur in a quick fashion. You are so heavily affected by one vote (I think 2 now with DP) and I find that incredibly interesting. Seems like your very afraid to get lynched with 2 votes on you...
If this was lylo I would completely agree with your last point... but really? Suspicious of a vote on Day 1? Also don't understand how it's a kicker as I haven't called you outright scum and I haven't yet said I'd be super happy with a quadz lynch today.

So I read through the game once more, this time with an eye towards my play, and I realize that what you said here is very, very true.

In addition, I realized I over-reacted to several things, and I've been playing very uptight all-around. I chalk it up to newbie jitters. I realize that doing this may immediately throw more suspicion on me, but I feel that I can ride that out until it passes.

I'm going to do my best to play looser, and not take stuff quite so... personally, for lack of a better word. I think not only will it improve my play, but it will help with scum-hunting.

On that note,

unVote: DavidParker

.

Why, you ask? Mallow made generally good points in this post, and I agree with him.

Here's my reasoning for not wanting to vote for DP anymore:
-He's not the only scum, if he is scum. There's at least one more out there.
-I see no reason to lynch an ucced cop claim. If someone else wants to cc then go for it.
-Mafia will kill him tonight most likely if there is no roleblocker. If there is a roleblocker they will block him to make him look scummier. If there is no roleblocker, he's dead tonight.

I still have suspicions of DP and mallow, but I'm going to wait and see how things play out for a bit.

[quadz08]

@silver: As I said, I was playing very defensively, and over-reacting to a lot of things. Perfectly normal paranoia, as Slartibartfast might say.

@NS: My thoughts there are just that even though I find someone suspicious, it doesn't mean that a) I'm right or b) he can't still make good points.

[quadz08]

Hey Beefster! Good to see you here.

[quadz08]

@silver: you win the thread.

@wraith: you get yet another cookie, and a

whole lot

of agreement.

@beefster:

quadz's said he was split between DP and mallow, votes DP. He later retracts his vote and totally disregards his previous statement about mallow.

I'm sorry if my being on the fence lately was confusing. I unvoted, partially because DP is looking much less scummy in hindsight, and because I wanted to see how both the situation with mallow and the situation with DP would play out.

With that in mind:

Vote: mallowgeno

[quadz08]

mallow, you are making me sad. Giving up a good game does not make.

[quadz08]

@mod: I voted mallowgeno in post 214

Vote count fixed.

@silver: He's the biggest one, right now. As of now, I don't see anything exceptionally scummy from anyone else. To answer the first question that I'm sure will come up at some point: as the game goes on, DP looks less and less scummy to me, and more just like he was playing badly / overconfidently.

AGar, however, is beginning to ring bells to me. He's posted 5 times in the course of this game (Beefster has posted 6 times, and came in very late, and the lowest from anyone else is 19) and while I realize RL stuff has an effect on how often someone can post, that does seem a lot like lurking. He's also voted in 2 of those 5 posts. One of them was DP, right in the midst of when all the heat was on DP, and he provided no new evidence. He did ask questions of each player, hoping to start up some new discussion. The second vote was on Wraith, in his most recent post. This one adds some new thoughts, so that's positive.

Another two of those 5 were basically filler (and a smidge of SE advice, I guessssss.):

Crap! World Cup fever has gotten me all out of whack. Sorry guys! Catching up now, promise!

Note: DavidParker is a L-1 by my count.

That means no one should hammer until he has fair time to explain himself, and convince us otherwise.

Also, the town should never never never NEVER no lynch on Day 1. In all variants of newbie games (Pie E7, C9, Original and the current F11 setup), when a no-lynch has occurred on Day 1, Mafia wins 15 out of 18 times.

The remaining one was answering two short questions from silver and I. All in all, he has made very little contribution, yet voted twice, while managing to stay out of the light by posting very sparsely.

Wooooo! Post done.

[quadz08]

Wow. That was quick haha.

And yes, what DP said. If you are town, help us!

[quadz08]

@AGar: That's officially pretty freakin' sweet.

@DP: What AGar said.

@All: As OK Go famously said: Here We Go Again. I'm bummed about Mallow, but we'll get it right toDay.

[quadz08]

@DP: Or, alternatively, you could be scum who's lying about being the cop. AGar provided an excellent cover for you when he asked for non-specific results; it allows you to say whatever you want, and we have no way to look into the matter. (AGar, I'm not saying I don't think it's a wise idea, it just does provide a lot of cover for someone who's pretending to be the cop...)

I think we need to keep all the possibilities in mind. Right now, DP is looking like the best candidate for a vote, but once again, I don't want to push us into L-1 at the very beginning of the day. So, for now:

FoS: DavidParker

I'll be reading through things again, looking for other possibilities. One thing I'd like to bring up now is the possibility of an AGar/DP scumteam, based on AGar's suggestion that I mentioned earlier. This is a strenuous connection at best, I know, but it can't hurt to look into.

[quadz08]

Also, DP, your posts seem to assume the presence of a roleblocker. Perhaps you know something we don't, hm?

[quadz08]

Somebody claiming/not claiming doc has no effect on his cop claim. If there is a doc, it's equally likely that there is a cop as there isn't one. If there is not a doc, then once again, it's 50-50 on the presence of a cop.

[quadz08]

@Quadz: A new town feel from you for pointing out Agar's possible association with me. Do you feel I should have revealed my entire check then and who it was on, even though AGaR asked for me just to reveal whether I got a check on townie/mafia/roleblocked but not say who? IF i confirmed a townie last night, do you think I should reveal him? If yes, at what point should I reveal him?

Honestly, I don't think you should reveal your whole check. I do think what AGar said was a wise idea. Also, I would say that you reveal if somebody is townie if it looks like they're going to get lynched, or in twilight, after you're lynched.

@ Quadz: Same question, what possible scum pairings do you see as likely or just individuals who you would be fairly sure are scum if I'm lynched and revealed as town? Also, why did you only FoS me rather than vote for me?

I'd be looking mostly at AGar and beefster's replacement. Honestly, that's pretty much based on post count, though; I have a vaguely scummy reading on AGar, and I've got mostly nothing on beefster/whoever, unfortunate though it may be. And, as I said when I FoS'ed you, I would have voted you, had I tuned in earlier. However, I didn't want to risk an accidental hammer so quickly in the day.

[quadz08]

... Wow, DP. That was an awfully quick turnaround. IF you're telling the truth, that's... quite the gamble, I think. But changing your story so quickly is just flashing all sorts of blinking lights and loud noises in my head, sooooo... I'm thinking you're not telling the truth.

Something like this overcomes my earlier caution about putting us at L-1. I think this just yells scum, honestly, and so:

VOTE: DavidParker

[quadz08]

Also: Hello, Thor! Welcome to the craziness. I look forward to your reactions!

[quadz08]

@silver: I wanted DP (and everyone else) to know exactly how scummy I thought DP's sudden switch was. Also, the only one who's been hammer-happy in this game is DP himself, and seeing as how the only 2 people who hadn't already put their vote on DP this round are NS and Thor, I figured it was safe.

@DP: You had two votes on you, and it was the very beginning of the day, with at least one person (I don't remember how many by the time you had made your post) had declared that they wanted to re-read things. You were far from being lynched, I think.

[quadz08]

Wooooooooooooooooooo!!! Walls o' text!!!

@DP: I find many things in your wall o' text to be strange/foolish/scummy. For one, like Wraith pointed out, you aren't giving him credit where credit is due. Building on that idea, you are not only ignoring whatever redeeming posts he may have, but NOT actively searching out other scum candidates. Had you posted a balanced, fair eval of Wraith, or made it a post about the scummy features of other players than the one you've been focusing on for a while, I wouldn't have this quarrel. I just get a scummy feel reading through that whole thing; it's so biased. You could go though most anyone's posts and do the exact same thing.

@Wraith:

David, you seem to be unable to comprehend of idea of "defense." You are attacking me, therefore I am attacking you back.

Since when does offense = defense? That's a strange thing to say, indeed... I feel like you're doing much the same thing I did on Day 1: overreacting to accusations, and becoming overly defensive. I'm willing to believe that it's just the newb coming out, as it was with me... but it could also be scum freaking out on being targeted.

I am excited for AGar's idea! And silver's thoughts! But I am sad, because NS's familiar square-y avatar is conspicuously missing recently. Boooooo! But it's ok because he should be posting again tomorrow! Yayyyyy! /random statements

Ooh, look! A new post! From AGar!

@AGar: I have a question about this. If this does happen, and a doctor DOES claim, that (as you say) proves nothing. This means that DP could either be a roleblocked cop, or a lying scum, which is exactly where we are now. This means we've sacrificed the doctor, and opened the door for the mafia to cause more confusion with false claims. I'm not sure what I think just yet.

[quadz08]

@Thor:

@QUADZ - could I see your top two suspects list and a brief reason why for each of them? Your last post appears like a scattergun attack and I'm not sure I have a good feeling for where you stand on the current scumminess of the players.

Sorry if that post seemed scattered haha. My top two suspects:

1. DavidParker: Lying, anger, unhelpfulness, poor play, scummy actions... I personally think he's scum, though I guess I can understand where people are coming from when they get town from him. Even if he is town, though, I think he's extremely dangerous to keep around. I can't imagine his erratic and nonsensical play would be helpful in a LYLO situation (or any, for that matter.)

2. I honestly have no outstanding second suspect. I've mentioned things about most everyone left, but nobody stands out as scummier than the rest.

[quadz08]

@NS: Woops. My bad haha.

@silver: I'm confused... I don't comprehend your post at all.

[quadz08]

@Thor: If I must pick someone, it'd be NS. His recent attempt at incriminating AGar seems rather forced, making him just that much scummier than others right now.

[quadz08]

And I thought DP was confusing BEFORE he got lynched... jeesh. That's just all kinds of strange.

[quadz08]

Mine are (after some brief skim-esque rereading) in no particular order, NS and Wraith. I'm curious as to what this idea of yours is, silver.

[quadz08]

I do think you made a good case, NS, even though there were some iffy points in it. I'm unsure if it would be helpful at this stage (with 2 players already doing isos) for me to do isos myself. On the one hand, it's good to get more perspectives, but on the other hand, I don't want to just repeat the same stuff other people have already said. Do you guys think it'd be beneficial for me to do isos?

[quadz08]

That was... quite the post, sir. I'm impressed haha.

[quadz08]

So, your biggest issue with me is a lack of content / opinions, as far as I can tell. While I’ll admit that I haven’t yet produced any in-depth analyses of anyone, I think I’m far from not posting my own thoughts. I will produce examples of my posts with content, as well as those I find from everyone else. I will be using only posts that have a pretty decent amount of personal opinion or analysis. Posts that are mostly intended as defense of self, or are questions for others, not opinions on them, will not be posted. Obviously, this is subjective, so I invite everyone to do the same.

quadz :
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p2305505
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p2306789
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p2306879
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p2315316
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p2321134
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2324800

That’s 6 of 46 posts (13%) that have a pretty good amount of my opinion and thoughts on things in them.

Wraith:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2308650
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p2313847
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p2315797
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p2324099

He has 4 of 69 posts (6%) with content, though 2 of them are fairly in-depth.

silver:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p2309993
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p2331598

These are the only 2 of his 64 (3%) that I think have much opinion in them. He has asked quite a few questions over the game, though.

NS:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p2315761
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p2321428
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p2331734

NS has 3 of 43 (7%). However, one of those was quite long, and he has more isos on the way.

Agar:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p2314409
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p2316145
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p2316347
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p2320424
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p2323474
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p2324781 (this is his plan for a massclaim, which I am counting as an opinion)
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p2332131

Agar has 7 of 39 (18%), including his massive wall o’ text o’ death.

Obviously, the percentages I have only take into account how many posts have been made, not how long or how much info was actually in them. However, I think it’s pretty clear that I can’t be called into question for content production.

I’d also like to make an additional point in my defense. The first time I was suspected (outside of DP’s insistence that I was scummy, based purely on my FoS of him) was this post

mallowgeno wrote:Quadz are you still on?

This, coupled with this:
mallowgeno wrote:
quadz08 wrote:@those who see me as scummy:
Can I get an explanation for it? I'm honestly confused as to why that vibe is coming off.


I agree completely with you quadz. I've been wanting one for some time now.


...leads me to think there could be a connection between you and quadz.

Just a note for later.

I think that I’m being considered as scum, in large part, due to the repetition of the idea that I’m scum. Now that this initial argument is proven untrue (since mallow is townie), I feel that there is very little actual reasoning to look at me scum. Here’s the wiki article (assuming the ‘wiki’ tag works): Argument from Repetition

Wraith has played very defensively. He reacted heavily to suspicion and votes, as well as focused pretty heavily on whoever had the most suspicion on them at the time.

I’m also looking at silver now. He’s managed to stay out of the spotlight, despite his very small amount of content production. By asking lots of questions, he’s also been able to ensure that others are the ones under that spotlight.

Is that a sufficient defense?

[quadz08]

@AGar: Please, do not ask me to play your games by forcing Wraith and I to look at only one another. That's not scumhunting, it's just tunnelling two players at once. While I understand that we are the most suspicious right now, that is no reason to ask us to focus only on each other. In a LYLO situation such as this, it cannot possibly be productive to focus on only two players; rather, it seems to push an agenda towards lynching certain players.

[quadz08]

I'm planning on it; I don't know when it will be up, though. I'm currently taking summer school, so I'm pretty much out of commission in the afternoon, and then I have plans this evening. Tomorrow morning seems to be the most likely case. (I'm on Pacific Time, so it may not be until afternoon for some of you.)

[quadz08]

@AGar: My apologies. I should have said "...by asking* Wraith and I..." That was poor wording on my part.

[quadz08]

I seem to remember it being answered; he said that it was, in fact, because of the statistics AGar posted.

[quadz08]

I'm going to defend myself against Wraith's post, and then I will get started on my isos.

You state that you have a concern about me fence-sitting; however, all the quotes you used don't show fencesitting. They show caution. I didn't want to risk lynching someone so early in the day, when we had so little information.

As to the bandwagon bit, I heartily disagree. If I voted for someone, it was because I thought they deserved a vote, and had nothing to do with how many other people were or were not voting for them at the time.

[quadz08]

I will be doing my isos in the style Agar used. Because I like it.

silver:

Post 1: randomvote
2: answered Uite’s questions
3: told mallow to chill; told Uite to play nice with David
4: said arrogance != scummy
5: describes game speed
6: posted suspicions, as per my question; questioned all players
7: questions mallow and Wraith, responds to DP’s and my recent posts
8: unvote
9: responds to DP and I, votes me, questions mallow and Wraith
10: questions Wraith about apparent contradiction; says he won’t reveal evidence of my scumminess
11: responds to me again; explains his reasoning for not explaining his vote on me
12: off-topic
13: references previous game to NS; explains questioning of Wraith on “extra vote/hammer” question
14: off-topic
15: off-topic
16: says he will explain his reasoning for voting me “since [NS] keeps pushing it”
17: proceeds to explain reasoning
18: asks NS’ opinion on the case
19: tells Wraith he should contribute
20: off-topic
21: wants to hear Beefster’s thoughts
22: questions mallow’s lack of defense; asks why Beefster is hesitating; asks why Wraith is offended; asks for suspects from all
23: answers Wraith
24: asks for more for Uite
25: responds to Wraith
26: again, responds to Wraith
27: EBWOP
28: gives Wraith a cookie
29: questions mallow’s defeatism; questions seeming contradiction from Wraith
30: rescinds confusion on Wraith’s post
31: asks about mallow’s defeatism against
32: same
33: asks players with no votes down for top suspects (says I and beefster; mod had incorrectly posted that I had not voted)
34: states V/LA status
35: says he disagrees with DP’s hammer
36: is angry at DP for hammer
37: says someone should cc DP, if a cc exists
38: off-topic
39: questions AGar’s request for non-specific info
40: questions AGar’s logic, agrees anyway; votes DP
41: explains vote
42: off-topic
43: Answers DP’s questions
44: off-topic
45: unvote; asks for opinion from Thor and NS and time to think
46: asks questions of DP and I
47: off-topic
48: comments on several different posts; posts suspicion list
49: responds to DP; agrees with AGar’s plan
50: asks about NS scum slip
51: says he’s fine with lynch on DP
52: votes NS after pointing out game-to-game hypocrisy
53: confused by DP’s VT flip
54: says to be careful when voting
55: asks everyone to post top 2 suspects, has a plan
56: EBWOP
57: says NS’ ignorance amazes him
58: points out what he’s referring to in previous post
59: makes large post, generally stating that I and Wraith are scummiest, but he didn’t know; also, his plan did not work
60: EBWOP
61: asks for reasons for everyone’s picks
62: like NS’ case
63: likes AGar’s isos; asks Wraith and I for rebuttals; asks for NS’ isos
64: says he won’t comment on recent posts just yet

(I seem to have skipped a post somewhere, just so everyone knows. My bad!)

---

Now, more detailed stuff.

I'm not yet ready to reveal any evidence I have (even if I don't have any), it could be gut for all you know and I will keep you uninformed until otherwise. Right now it seems like you are trying to push suspicion on to me now for answering a question with another question. I feel that it's fitting for me to do this simply because, if I think a person is scum, and keeps doing scummy things, why in the world should I let that person know what the person is doing that is scummy so that they can change their behavior. Unless I feel I have a solid case on you and want you dead, I'd rather keep ya in the dark.

While I understand silver’s reasoning for this post, it is still rather suspect. It is simply all too easy for him to vote a player whose newb-ness could be interpreted as scummy, and then say he didn’t want to reveal why. Withholding information is, in my opinion, anti-town at best, and when it can so easily conceal a scummy motive, it becomes scummy. He only explained his reasoning after some pretty hard pushing from NS. More possible examples of this (from earlier in the same chunk of discussion):

@quadz
Can I get an explanation for it? I'm honestly confused as to why that vibe is coming off.

So basically your saying...

"Hey guys I'm scum, but I'm trying to be town, some of you see me for who I really am and I don't know how. Could you tell me how so I'll stop doing it? Kthx!"

@quadz

Ummm... No. That's not what I'm saying, at all. What I'm saying is "Hey, I'm town, but apparently I'm giving scum signals. What are they, so I know how to defend myself/fix them, so people will get off my back, so we can keep the focus on people who may actually be scum?"


So.. you want to stop acting scummy, so people will stop bothering you (seeing if you are scum) and put the focus on to other people.

Very interesting.

---

3. You want me to explain what has made you scummy because you state yourself that you want to act less scummy. You want people to clear you as town from day 1. You want people to scumhunt others and not you. Your question is a scummy question and if I give you the truthful answer it enables you to learn and try to be more townie. Why the frack would I want scum to act more townie?

(This is like the uber noob who in the first game goes, hey everyone I'm town, Tell me if I am acting scummy so I will stop acting scummy).

This is a somewhat strange post. He explains why all the things I’m doing are scummy, then say “it’s what a newb would do.” That is somewhat conflicting, for one, but a bigger ping on my radar is that even after admitting that it’s a newb-tell, but then proceeds to ignore that fact.

---

-Beefster
(I'm assuming mallow is at L2)
Why the hesitation with the vote?

If anyone decides to quickhammer you'd be helping the town out more or less as it's probably a scrubby scum hoping to lynch a townie.

Are you trying to make it so your the hammer? Are you trying to make it so you can put a vote on him without seeming suspicious?

Ok, so the bold comment is ringing all kinds of bells. His logic makes sense, but… it’s awfully twisted. I just can’t see a situation where a quicklynch is ideal.

---

DP what result did you get, you get a townie or scum... or did you get blocked.

VOTE: DP
(Til he answers)

This just confused me. What in the world would warrant a vote until DP answers? And then, once he does answer, his reasoning for the vote has changed (I think, he’s not terribly clear here):

-DP
So you're voting for someone who you think is a townie?!?!

silverbullet wrote:For the moment, I just find you as a stupid impatient townie

Please note the For the moment.
I hammer'd when I shouldn't have, you're right, I was impatient,


This is probably the worst thing possible if we get to LYLO. If you are a townie cop, you are an incredibly dangerous townie cop.

---

-Nobody
NobodySpecial wrote: I can't believe anything you say at this point. Sorry, that's just how it is. I have a very big thing about lying. In mafia, several ends can be achieved without outright lying. I just find it distasteful.


I don't intend to be a jerk... but isn't that a little hypocritical mr i'm a doc, admin did you make a mistake?
VOTE: nobody special

It is later explained that NS was scum in that game, which silver knew when he posted this. When playing as scum, I would imagine that one wouldn’t always follow their principles, especially about lying. This seems like silver’s trying too hard to find something to build a case on. Overzealous scumhunting, or scum trying to look like he’s scumhunting?

---

Overall, I’m not sure what to think. He has asked a lot of questions, which is helpful to town, but is also conducive to his survival and staying out of the light. He also seems to be trying to pull scumminess out of things that aren’t actually that scummy. That could either be super-scumhunting, or fake scumhunting. He has also been the only player not to be a deciding vote in either lynch so far (meaning he ended the day voting for someone who didn’t get lynched). This could potentially be a ploy to draw attention away from himself.

Whew. Iso #1 done. Only 3 to go!

[quadz08]

I would like everyone to know that I am about halfway done with my iso on Wraith, before everyone decides that I'm the auto-lynch for tomorrow. I do believe I made it clear that I would be doing isos on all 4 of you, so... I question AGar's case, and find it rather suspicious that he decided to post that. I would appreciate a pause on the hammer, at least, until I'm finished with my case. Right now, it's definitely leaning towards scum on him (and even if it wasn't, I don't know how much my case would sway anyone).

I just... am having a hard time with how quickly everyone seems to be following AGar's lead, as well. Just something to keep in mind.

[quadz08]

Wraith:

Post 1: randomvote
2: answered Uite’s questions
3: off-topic
4: Unvote; asks mallow about vote
5: says we’re all twitchy
6: says he hates Day 1; ask about NL
7: says he has no suspicions and that he’s not good at spotting scum
8: Says DP seems scummy, votes DP
9: says vote stands after AGar’s statistics
10: apologizes for lurking
11: answers DP’s questions, responds to Uite and I; makes short mini-analysis
12: asks if DP’s claim is hypothetical
13: says he would hammer due to flaming from DP
14: says he’s leaving his vote on DP
15: responds to silver
16: not sure about DP’s alignment, still confused if he claimed; thinks mallow is scum
17: votes mallow
18: explains belief that DP and mallow are opposite alignments
19: says he’s not concerned about dRool’s alignment
20: says he may be misreading AGar
21: Provides defense against silver’s comment
22: off-topic
23: off-topic
24: says he has “nothing useful to contribute”
25: hi to Beefster
26: off-topic
27: off-topic
28: doesn’t appreciate baseless accusations
29: frustrated defense
30: says he was annoyed, not offended
31: off-topic
32: not going to play “word games” anymore
33: EBWOP
34: iso on mallow
35: posts suspicion list
36: says he can see the obvious scum
37: says he used to be suspicious of silver
38: off-topic
39: questions DP and AGar’s logic
40: iso thingy on DP
41: says he’s frustrated with people
42: off-topic
43: responds to NS
44: responds to Uite; seems frustrating his evidence isn’t being taken seriously
45: questions NS’ logic
46: FRUSTRATION!
47: claims VT
48: says top suspects are DP and I
49: off-topic
50: questions Beefster’s and NS’ whereabouts
51: Says AGar and DP are doing weird things if they’re scum
52: says he’s confident in who he’s voting for
53: votes DP
54: answers DP’s questions; suspects are NS and I
55: explains lurking & vote on DP
56: complains about DP
57: responds to DP’s post on him, quite thoroughly
58: responds to Thor
59: states that his idea of defense is attacking his attacker
60: confused about AGar’s plan
61: says he’s seeing a lot of fence-sitting
62: includes me in the fence-sitting list
63: says top suspects are me, NS, and AGar
64: off-topic
65: WTF on DP’s VT flip. (toooooo many acronyms)
66: states top two suspects
67: explains/clarifies suspicions
68: responds to NS’ iso on him
69: says why he was tunneling
70: says he didn’t expect an in-depth analysis from me
71: confirms my answer to a question about him
72: short iso on me
73: says he’s done
74: votes me; says everyone has understandably solid cases on him

---

3. I'm not giving advice to you if you're a scum player.

Uhhhh… dude, it’s a game, and pretty close to the beginning of one. Chill. This feels like false bravado; trying too hard to be a part of town. Maybe scum trying too hard, maybe newb not sure what’s acceptable, maybe some of both.

---

@DP: I'm not sure at this point now, since you actually seem civil now. Now that the others are putting up defending arguments for you, mallow is looking a lot more scummy than you did earlier.

This statement sends up red flags. It’s strange to me that he’s more accepting of DP after others start defending him. Perhaps he’s realizing that DP isn’t going to get lynched today after all, and he’d best follow suit?

---

I have nothing useful to contribute at the moment, just maintaining my vote against mallow. I think Uite and NS make sound cases against him and further justify my suspicions.

---

I can definitely understand this post; I just think he was perhaps a bit up-front about saying he had nothing to contribute. There are less dangerous ways of doing so. This comes across as mostly bad play.

I don't appreciate your baseless accusations. Luckily for you, mallow being scummier at the moment overtakes priority from an OMGUS vote.

@silver: Why wouldn't it? Would YOU appreciate being accused of being scum?

@Beefster: If I wasn't already voting for a scummier player I'd probably vote for DP, not only because he also seems scummy to me but also because he's accusing me of scum, probably in retaliation for voting for him earlier in the day.

I'm not offended, I'd call it annoyed. Like I said, I think he's just trying to get back at me for voting for him earlier.

Ah. Here is where all the lights and buzzers start going in my head. As to the first quote in this chunk, he openly admits he would OMGUS DP. I don’t know why anyone would OMGUS someone on purpose (outside of RVS), much less admit that it’s an OMGUS. In quote #2, he answers a question with a question, reacts very defensively, and accuses DP of an OMGUS FoS, immediately after stating his willingness to OMGUS vote him. In the last quote, he denies being offended, and repeats that he thinks DP is using OMGUS. This whole chunk is yelling scum at me.

---

As to his iso on mallow (http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p2313847):

Throughout this post, he never once so much as attempts to be balanced; rather, he points out the most negative things he can, up to and including ones he’s very clearly stretched. He does make good points in this iso; however, there are some definite weak spots. For example:

At Post 41, he becomes a hypocrite by accusing DP of baseless accusations while accusing DP of scumminess for "making pointless statements"

How does this make him a hypocrite, exactly?

Now, with him and quadz, we have two possibilities:

1. He and quadz are the scumteam
2. He is buddying up to quadz

These are, in fact, not the only possibilities. Even with the assumption that mallow was scum, the (accurate) possibility that it was his newb-ness combined with bad luck was totally ignored.

After this, he makes some solid points about bandwagons and mallow’s seeming urgency to lynch DP.

His logic is totally contradictory (FoSing DP while "looking elsewhere" for the lynch) and I believe he is trying to distance himself from a sinking ship (the BW against DP). His wording also set off alarms: "for my first lynch." He obviously wants one of his BWs to be the lynch.

This entire paragraph is Wraith stretching things. It’s not strange at all for someone to FoS someone and keep looking for the lynch elsewhere, especially after an explanation for removing his vote. And the “first lynch” bit is clearly him tugging at threads that aren’t there.

A few more decent points are made (considering Wraith’s understanding of “ucc-ed”.)

Here mallow seems pretty confident that DP will live if there is a roleblocker. Have he and his scumpartner already strategized for the night phase?

And here, Wraith attacks a perfectly logical conclusion by mallow. He’s continuing to force things.

There are a few more ok points at the end as well. I would like to point out his consistent use of words such as obvious, (searches through post) ok, he really likes the word obvious, I guess. I think that’s some pretty strong wording, for a point where we didn’t have ANY concrete info yet…

---

David, you seem to be unable to comprehend of idea of "defense." You are attacking me, therefore I am attacking you back. As you have constantly, you are claiming my scumhunting make me scum, along with every other action I take. As for your questions, you continue to fail to respond to any of my counterpoints I make and therefore I will not answer your questions.

As I’ve stated before, I find this highly suspect. Defense does not equal offense.

---

This is his short iso on me:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p2333825

I already explained my concerns with this post, in the post immediately following it.

---

Well, you all have solid cases on me. But that's to be expected, because after DP I've played the scummiest game. I don't know about you all, but I'm gonna go with my gut and lynch the most blatant scum.

Vote: quadz08

This concerns me because he’s not defensive ENOUGH. I know, I know, that seems backwards; however, one would imagine a townie would fight for his life (literally) in this situation. He’s resigning himself to the gallows, which if he were a townie, would mean losing. It’s possible he’s given up, but I rather doubt it. He’s not fighting for the town.

After this 5-page iso, as well as a read-through of NS and AGar’s posts, I believe I have reached a verdict. If Wraith isn’t scum, I will be shocked. He's used questionable strategy, hypocrisy, and did some serious stretching to find "scummy" behavior. All in all, he's the scummiest of the 4 that are left.

With that in mind:

VOTE: Wraith

And now, we wait.

[quadz08]

Well, I have an iso on NS done I can post. I'll have to go back through and look at it again, though, now that AGar's been killed. Same with you, silver; I'll need to go through and re-hash my iso on you. They won't be up until later tonight at the earliest, though; I have stuff going on most all day.

[quadz08]

I think AGar's death post wins, btw.

[quadz08]

Working on them! I think NS' is pretty much done; I'm going through yours again now, silver.

[quadz08]

it should be up in not too long. Sorry this is taking so long; my teacher decided to dump just unbelievable amounts of homework on me.

[quadz08]

Here we go!

First off:

NobodySpecial:

Post 1: Welcome; answers Uite’s questions; randomvote
2: explains randomvote; says NL is bad
3: off-topc
4: answers my question
5: says we should slow down; answers DP; unvotes
6: asks DP to chill
7: responds to Uite’s apology for rushing; says he’s on the fence about DP’s claim
8: says there could be a connection between mallow and I
9: says suspects are mallow and I; asks us both for suspects; votes mallow
10: responds to mallow’s OMGUS
11: says no one has a read on AGar or dRool; says I’m making things harder than they are
12: says a scum player will have additional scumtells; votes silver
13: says keeping info to self is scummy; asks about my unvote
14: asks for reactions from silver
15: says silver’s reactions are sufficient
16: votes mallow
17: responds to mallow’s assertion that his vote was OMGUS
18: says IC comes before player, but is also playing to win
19: questions DP’s sarcastic comment on Uite
20: asks for mallow’s help
21: says AGar’s lurking is bothersome; short analysis of Wraith; votes Wraith
22: explains vote on silver; says there’s no easy way to end day; unnerved by DP believing mallow’s claim
23: responds to Wraith and DP’s posts
24: differentiates between tunneling and not sharing info
25: asks for mallow to clarify a comment (which he doesn’t manage to do)
26: comments on DP & AGar
27: points out L-1 situation
28: asks for people to wait for him to post something big
29: responds to a lot of stuff; says he’s ready to lynch DP, but is too angry to vote with a clear conscience.
30: retracts a quote from AGar
31: says he made his point with the retracted quote
32: denies a scum slip
33: responds to Thor’s concerns about the same quote, brings up another bit of evidence for the DP/AGar scumteam
34: says he can’t trust DP due to lies; votes DP
35: off-topic
36: responds to questions about silver’s last-game reference
37: asks for a pause on voting before he returns
38: suggests we not rush the Day
39: comments on silver’s suggestion
40: realizes his comment was inaccurate; says he’s suspicious of Wraith and I
41: iso on Wraith
42: explains tunneling
43: says his next iso will be on me
44: says his wall on me will up soon
45: iso on me
46: asks question of Wraith
47: off-topic
48: votes Wraith
49: says he’ll be looking primarily at me
50: asks AGar why he didn’t vote

---

On to WraithAnalysis:
Wraith Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:57 pm wrote:I don't appreciate your baseless accusations. Luckily for you, mallow being scummier at the moment overtakes priority from an OMGUS vote.

Wraith Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:19 pm wrote:Alright, reading over the whole topic again, my scumdar is starting to spark on mallowgeno

At 3:29 am, mallow posted this.

While mallow didn't confirm his VT claim until 2:35 pm, two people had asked for clarification as to whether that was a VT claim. Wraith was not one of those people.

Wraith Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:56 am wrote:@Beefster: I had suspicions on silver myself a while ago, thinking he could be scumteam with someone else (I think it was DP I was considering to be his partner). However, because a mallow/quadz or mallow/someone else scumteam is definitely more likely, I view silver as a very zealous scumhunter.

This analysis is rather strange to me. The first two quotes seem to be him demonstrating that Wraith is suspicious of mallow, and little more. He makes no comment about them, either. He next makes a reference to this post: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 1#p2313961

This is mallow pointing out his suspicions, and following Wraith’s advice on what to do if you’re a VT about to get lynched. NS comments on how Wraith did not ask for confirmation on mallow’s claim, which was slightly confusing. However, I do feel like NS is reaching for evidence with that complaint.

While I agree that Wraith was tunneling mallow, I don’t think NS’ analysis was terribly well done, nor did it demonstrate that tunneling very well. In fact, after looking at the location of NS’ post, I’m not really sure one can call Wraith on tunneling anyway.

---

I am a bit unnerved by DP's insistence that he believes mallow's VT claim. This could be indicative of a DP/mallow scumteam. I was completely willing to believe DP's earlier cop claim, but now, not so much. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I’m confused as to how he can be unnerved by DP believing mallow’s claim, but say in the same breath that he was willing to believe DP’s. I understand there’s a slight difference between “believing” and being “willing to believe,” but nonetheless, it seems rather hypocritical.

---

I am not voting now, as I'm just too irritated to vote with a clear conscience.

This says town to me, but it could also be just good scum play.

---

AGar wrote:Can y'all do me a favor and make sure David lives to see at least another 24 hours, preferably more potentially?


You aren't helping.

I’m rather inclined to agree with what AGar says in the post immediately following this. NS pulled this quote heavily out of context, and didn’t even acknowledge the fact that AGar had presented a totally valid reason why he wouldn’t want DP lynched. I can see his point, but it was made with altogether too much certainty.
I wonder if that might have been an attempt to push suspicion on AGar that backfired, though I would imagine NS wouldn’t be so foolish as to use such strenuous evidence.

---

I do not think, based on what I know at this point, that I was misrepping AGar, nor do I believe I was taking him that far out of context. I desired to make a point without quoting 42GB of text; concision is, after all, pro-town, yes?

This was a few posts later, in response to Thor. While yes, conciseness is pro-town, incomplete representations of a player are not.

---

This quote is immediately following a suspicion list from Wraith:

What can we get from this?

A) Continued tunnelling on mallow (who we now know is town)
B) three town players, unknown at the time, are forecast as town (Uite, DP, NS --granted, only I *know* I'm town, but still)
C) Thor is missing. Perhaps in preparation for the upcoming kill?

---

As to point B: He called everybody townie except mallow (who was scum) and AGar (who was neutral). Pointing out specific players he called as townie is quite the reach.

Wraith wrote:@Uite: Like I've said before, after re-reading the topic DP didn't actually act scummy until recently, so

I've believed his cop claim for a while now.

However, like I said, my faith in that claim might be slipping.

Also, if we keep evidence to ourselves, two things might happen:

1. We'll get voted by NS for keeping evidence to ourselves (although he doesn't seem to care either way, hypocritically enough)
2. There is no way a majority can be shown that someone is scum. Hell, even posting evidence there doesn't seem to be a way to show people someone is scum.


WAIT A SEC. This (bolded) from the guy who repeatedly had to ask whether the claim was serious?? Backtracking, big time.

I’m confused as to how this is backtracking. Once he determined there was, in fact, a cop, why would how many times he had to ask affect whether or not he believed DP?

---

MAKE UP YOUR MIND. Either he claimed, and you believe him, or he "hypothetically" non-claimed. Or next time, at least take better notes so you remember what you've lied about.

Why do you keep pushing this? He clearly understood it was a genuine claim at some point. I wonder if this is all just you distancing yourself from your partner… and that better notes comment could easily be thinly veiled advice.

---

Even though I think that quadz reads as mostly town, I think we may see something after Wraith's flip.

I'll primarily be looking at quadz, but you and AGar won't be off my radar.

These posts were separated by one post by silver and one from the mod. silver’s post asked what his opinion would be if Wraith flipped scum. Why does this question suddenly change his opinion of me?

---

In conclusion, I can see NS as going either way. He did do a fair amount of investigating, but much of it was rather flawed. This could definitely be an example of NS trying to distance himself from his partner; however, I don’t think there would be that much of a need to distance himself from Wraith. He also had very little interaction with Wraith. The most it ever occurred was when he and AGar argued about NS’ inappropriate quoting, which could have been an attempt to push suspicion on him. It could go either way, really, but I’m rather inclined to say town on NS.

---

---

---

As to silver, I didn't find anything in particular to point out in addition to my previous iso. I would like to mention the fact that silver and Wraith's interactions declined around the time that Wraith started to gather suspicion. Also, he's been pretty clear that he finds me scummier than Wraith for quite a while. Perhaps this is him not wanting to get too close to his scumbuddy?

Right now, my scumdar is pointing at silver over NS. I await opinions from the two of you.

[quadz08]

Well, that was awfully quick. Hoping for NS' agreement and a quicklynch?

Just because two players (in a 9-player game designed for new players) have similar reactions, doesn't mean you can assume that they're a scumteam. I suppose it was just my poor luck that the person who played similarly to me happened to be mafia. If anything, similar plays say to me that two people aren't connected, honestly; it would be foolish to show an obvious connection like that, even for a new player.

Also, to respond to your point about AGar: I think you saw that and said "Ah-ha!" If I NK Agar, I can make NS think quadz did it! Somewhat WIFOM, yes, but the possibility is definitely there.

I must say, silver, that the speed of your vote is highly, highly irresponsible and foolish. I think you are trying to play off of the prevailing sentiment that I am scum before more thought can be put into the case, and hoping that NS will jump on your bandwagon. It's a bad scum play, but a scum play nonetheless. I think you're panicking, and trying too hard to push a mislynch.

By voting so early, you've forced my hand. I'm putting all my chips in on this vote, just as you did, silver. If NS is scum, then we suck; however, at this point, I think he's the other VT. The game all comes down to NS' decision now.

VOTE: silverbullet999

[quadz08]

Quadz

If anything, similar plays say to me that two people aren't connected, honestly; it would be foolish to show an obvious connection like that, even for a new player.

So I should ignore the fact that you and wraith really never interacted with eachother?

A) What does that have to do with what I said?
B) No, but again, 9-person game. 2 people. I don't think a lack of interaction with one specific player implies a connection.

Also, to respond to your point about AGar: I think you saw that and said "Ah-ha!" If I NK Agar, I can make NS think quadz did it! Somewhat WIFOM, yes, but the possibility is definitely there.

Ummm your saying I would NK the guy who called you and wraith a scumteam... who would probably have been willing to lynch you off the get go... do you see something wrong with this?

I do, actually. I don't think AGar (or NS, for that matter) is foolish enough to attempt to lynch ANYONE right at the get-go. I think you have underestimated the intelligence of your competition.

I must say, silver, that the speed of your vote is highly, highly irresponsible and foolish. I think you are trying to play off of the prevailing sentiment that I am scum before more thought can be put into the case, and hoping that NS will jump on your bandwagon. It's a bad scum play, but a scum play nonetheless. I think you're panicking, and trying too hard to push a mislynch.

I disagree, wholeheartidly bud. I waited for your iso as to which side you would play, I know I'm town, and unless your case pushed for a nobody lynch (with some great evidence to back it) I was dead set on lynching you. Your iso has you leaning me more than nobody (which i figured it would) thus I can confidently put my vote on scum.

Nice try for a retort but really that wifom just cracked me up.

That's the thing: YOU say that you're town. No one else knows that. Your reasoning assumes that NS knows that you're a townie, which is a foolish gambit for anyone to make, and especially scum. I think one of two things occurred here: A) you couldn't think of better reasoning for your vote, or B) you're trying to push the idea that you're town. A psychological ploy, if you will. By insinuating and saying that you're town, the idea will become lodged more and more firmly in his head. Not a bad idea, except you weren't subtle enough. It was rather obvious to me, actually.

Speaking of NS, though:

@Mod: Is there a prod on NS? It's been just about 48 hours since his last post, I believe.

[quadz08]

Just so you guys know, I'm leaving tomorrow for a trip to the beach for the 4th. I'm gonna be driving tomorrow afternoon, so if any questions are asked of me then, don't expect an immediate answer.

[quadz08]

I do, actually. I don't think AGar (or NS, for that matter) is foolish enough to attempt to lynch ANYONE right at the get-go. I think you have underestimated the intelligence of your competition.

Your cracking me up... are you kidding me... I'm not saying that AGar would have thrown his vote on you at the beginning of the day but i can guarendamntee that his vote would have been on you already by now... as for your repeated suggestions that i'm rushing everything, you already stated your opinion, I stated mine and threw the vote, your omgusing and reaching now to try to win. I knew it would come to this as you think you can convince NS, as you had a small to no chance on convincing me.

I personally think that AGar, like NS, is smart enough to wait to vote until there had been some discussion. How does me suspecting you make you so sure I'm scum anyway? Why would me suspecting NS suddenly clear me? And you blame me for an OMGUS...

That's the thing: YOU say that you're town. No one else knows that. Your reasoning assumes that NS knows that you're a townie, which is a foolish gambit for anyone to make, and especially scum. I think one of two things occurred here: A) you couldn't think of better reasoning for your vote, or B) you're trying to push the idea that you're town. A psychological ploy, if you will. By insinuating and saying that you're town, the idea will become lodged more and more firmly in his head. Not a bad idea, except you weren't subtle enough. It was rather obvious to me, actually.

Someone needs to learn to read apparently. A few things to note
Never did I say NS knows I'm town... I know he's town... or at least strongly read him as town, thus since I am town.. and I believe him to be town... you must be scum. It cracks me up how your so obviously bothered by my vote on you... how the hell is it a foolish gambit to place a vote on someone you strongly believe to be scum. I have been gunning for you on and off the whole game... how are you even surprised?
B. So me mentioning that I'm town... once... is a psychological tactic... wow... that since i'm obviously mentioning i'm town... it's an obvious ploy... wow

I also never said that NS knows you're town; I said that the assumption your reasoning implies is that NS believes you're town. Of course he doesn't KNOW you're town. And, um, duh I'm bothered by your vote. If NS votes me, town loses.

The foolish gambit I was referring to was your assumption that NS believes you're town.

This late in the game, it's not as though it has to be said very much. And, by the way, I'm not surprised you're gunning for me; you've been aimed at me for a good chunk of the game. I'm just surprised you were dumb enough to put down your vote on me so quickly. Like I said before, I think you did it to capitalize on the prevailing sentiment that I am scum, before analysis and discussion could reveal otherwise.

[quadz08]

Kinda like silver, I'm on a trip-esque thing, so I'm going to be pseudo-kindof-V/LA for this weekend. I should be able to respond to things, but I don't really know how often or how in-depth.

[quadz08]

(Bolding mine.) It's only "of course" if you're scum. If you were town, you wouldn't KNOW what I do or don't know. This hurt you.

We know you're not scum, since you didn't just hammer someone and end it. So, unless you're the cop, I think it's safe to assume that you don't know if he's town or not. I believe my logic is sound.

[quadz08]

Whooooo. Well played, everyone. I blame my over-sensitivity on Day 1 haha. If anyone has any pointers for me, they would be much appreciated!

[quadz08]

So basically you're saying that I need to be more aggressive? I know I didn't play well at first, and I realized around Day 3-ish that I had been too obviously avoiding Wraith. I was pretty sure that I wasn't gonna make it out of Day 4 haha. How would you have played Night 3 and Day 4 in my situation?

[quadz08]

We just PM'd each other during the night phase.

[quadz08]

Honestly, I killed you because you seemed to have a much better handle on what was happening. You just seemed to be a stronger/smarter player.

[quadz08]

@silver: crap, I meant to post them and forgot, and I just deleted them. Maybe Wraith has them still?

[quadz08]

Wraith: I know, I know. I did a lot of stuff wrong. I don't think not voting DP really caused us to lose; rather, I'd blame it on both of our overreactions on Day 1, and my apparent inability to acknowledge your existence during the Day.

Uite: I think it was just because you were SO DAMN TOWNIE. You were our best guess, more than anything.

[quadz08]

I'm inclined to agree with DP here. Quicklynching is basically yelling "hey, I'm scum!"

[quadz08]

Dahahahahahaha! Awesome, AGar. I think I'm going to start doing things like that hahaha.