Newbie 965 (Game Over)

[DavidParker]

Well, i'm only at L-1 now. Maybe instead of just rushing into lynching me as soon as possible, people should actually consider the possibility I'm not scum, and realise you need to be scum-hunting now as well.

I changed my story so quickly because I was about to be lynched quadz : )

Seems like no better time to tell it like it is...

[silverbullet999]

UNVOTE

I want Thor's opinion and NS's opinion since they are here. Also want more time to think over a few things now.

[silverbullet999]

-DP
Explain to me why you hammered mallow.

-Quadz
Why do you put DP back at L-1 when this group is a little hammer happy and after Thor and NS have asked that we hold off on a hammer until they get a better read on everything?

[quadz08]

@silver: I wanted DP (and everyone else) to know exactly how scummy I thought DP's sudden switch was. Also, the only one who's been hammer-happy in this game is DP himself, and seeing as how the only 2 people who hadn't already put their vote on DP this round are NS and Thor, I figured it was safe.

@DP: You had two votes on you, and it was the very beginning of the day, with at least one person (I don't remember how many by the time you had made your post) had declared that they wanted to re-read things. You were far from being lynched, I think.

[Thor665]

Greetings,

This is my read through and commentary. It will be a wall o' text. For those of you who hate walls of text with the passion of a thousand fires feel free to skip to the end where I'll offer a more concise summary in a follow-up post. For those who love walls o' text, here we go...

mallow is lynched and Uite is dead - both are vanilla. Okay.

Uite opens up with what I feel are relatively pointless questions as all of them are focused on game theory rather then in game parameters. Mostly a newb tell to my mind but I'd probably have voted him over it to spark conversation.

DavidParker wins the cake with an early OMGUS vote on mallowgeno - definite vote for him over that at this stage of the game. Uite quickly follows with an FOS on David - weak RVS action is weak. quadz immediately follows this with supporting Uite and also FOSing David just like Uite did.

@silverbullet - it's a good thing to end RVS early, FYI. (and later on he laments the quick end of the RVS - which was my doing as I recall. You shall never have an RVS, silver, never!)

...oh sweet gawd, NS is the IC? To the hills!!!

I'll also note that despite not being a fan of RVS as he stated in his opening post, NS also immediately votes quadz without even explaining why. I really hope somebody asked him about that. (apparenlty quadz will - null tell, but I'm glad it was asked)

As expected, AGar shows up and says a lot of things I've been thinking. Thank gawd.


This post (did the new board get rid of individual numbering for posts? Terrible! In any case, the linked post is setting off all sorts of bad vibes in me. Asking for play advice is *not* a good way to shake scum feelings off of yourself and generally has the opposite effect. I'm still having a hard time reading the newb energy from the scum energy with him, but his initial attitude and tons of obfuscation about his intentions does not sit well. I'll be interested to see silverbullet's reaction to this since he did something similar in our first game.

Ouch! Cop claim, rage, and lots of insults (way too many for my taste) from David. Still, with no counterclaim I wouldn't lynch him Day 1, and with that thought I begin to suspect I know why there's such a quick L-1 situation on Day 2. It will be interesting to see how mallow becomes the lynch at this stage.

I also now understand why Uite was NKed - obvious town is obvious.

(I give all rights to above statement to Thor, this way he doesn't sue me for copyright infringement).

Darn skippy.

quadz is voting the claimed cop on Day 1, will someone please question him on the sanity of this move.

I do not like silverbullet claiming he won't reveal his "evidence" about quadz until later. If town has evidence then it's worth hearing *now*. That said, I support the vote on quadz, I'd probably be voting the same at this stage (admittedly I already know mallow's role so take what grains of sodium you will).

Wraith and AGar are lurking to an unconscionable degree - I detest this. I almost feel it's an outgrowth of earlier in the thread when everyone was saying they don't lynch lurkers. Though I agree lurking is more anti-town then scummy, it is something that aids scum when they can do it and when town does it as well. The atmosphere of allowing lurking is terrible for town.

quadz is really just playing follow the leader. The newb is strong with this one. It's making reading him difficult for me. Nobody Special is being odd, I'm getting to see his IC persona here and I'm not sure how to read that either. No one seems to have an issue with his obvious lurking though.

I'm really not liking Wraith's play and I'm actually leaning town on DavidParker. Of course Agar has to mess with some of my suspicions by storming in and assaulting Wraith. I agree with AGar's Wraith issues pretty whole heartedly.

My read on David is mostly gut, but frankly he comes across as honest newb to me and really the people he's pointing out as scummy and town are very similar to reads I'm getting. I'll will note the defense of mallow (which I agree with because of my amazing 20/20 hindsight/presight) could be read either as a scum or town tell but his continued focus on quadz seems to make sense within his suspicion narrative.

Agar wins in my book for noting the mallow commentary about planning with scumbuddies. This makes me happy because I've been sitting here contemplating AGar as scum and now I can feel more townish about him. (I can also delete my rambling commentary on this note since it was already made)

From reading the most recent posts as far as I can tell DavidParker was the hammer on mallow...he's also defending Mallow (page 10) something serious. WTF my friends, WTF.

He also just demanded (and got) Wraith to claim at what I think was L-2. ::insert screaming in frustrating confused frustrated confusion smilie here::

I disagree with AGar's cop result claim logic example. Town should know who town is going into night phase, leave it to scum to have to pick between cop and town, that's better then letting cop die without revealing his town investigation. That said I'm guessing this was really just scumhunting on DP, but if AGar actually believes this then I must disagree.

Nobody's claimed Doc

For a second this one gave me a heart attack and made me question my reading comprehension. I will note, that with Nobody Special in the game I do generally support careful use of certain words.

Both Nobody and Wraith are dropping DP/AGar pairing suspicions? Really? That's an interesting coincidence considering the lack of explanation for an AGar/DP pair from anyone up to that point. I don't like how Nobody is currently clearing DP...that said that seems an awfully dumb move for a scumbuddy (not that I accuse Nobody of having the best scum play in the world.

Oh dear gawd...roleblock claim after investigation claim after...DP is either scum or a very large anchor around the neck of town.

And done - brief commentary post will follow.

[Thor665]

I feel confident that silverbullet is town at the moment, and will lump AGar in with him as also having strong town vibes.

quadz reads as really newbie and I'm uncertain of my real take there. Wraith is also in the mid ground but I've got more of a scummish vibe on him.

Nobody is scummy feeling.

DP is scum or is one of the least helpful townie/cops I have ever seen. I support this as a lynch, and though I am content to have some more conversation (I'd *love* to hear Nobody tell us how DP isn't scum some more) I cannot see me voting for anyone else this Phase unless they claim scum.

[AGar]

Nobody Special is being odd, I'm getting to see his IC persona here and I'm not sure how to read that either. No one seems to have an issue with his obvious lurking though.

I can't really say much about the lurking since I was guilty of it D1, but now I'm a bit frustrated that we're not hearing from him.

From reading the most recent posts as far as I can tell DavidParker was the hammer on mallow...he's also defending Mallow (page 10) something serious. WTF my friends, WTF.

I believe I addressed this, but yes. Makes no sense.

I disagree with AGar's cop result claim logic example. Town should know who town is going into night phase, leave it to scum to have to pick between cop and town, that's better then letting cop die without revealing his town investigation. That said I'm guessing this was really just scumhunting on DP, but if AGar actually believes this then I must disagree.

I didn't honestly think DP was going to have a result, and even if he did, I intended on prying a reveal on his read during twilight/pre-hammer.

Oh dear gawd...roleblock claim after investigation claim after...DP is either scum or a very large anchor around the neck of town.

Both are hinderous, but I'm inclined to believe he's the former, not the latter. Although he could be both simultaneously - a scum who's causing a sinking feeling for the town.

Glad to see you immersing. Unfortunately, can't give you a pass though, because the slot has been impossible to read up until now. Sorry, brotha. Gotta keep some level of attentiveness up until more comes forth.

[Wraith]

Okay, Thor seems to have a problem with me lurking. Let me explain: when I opened my mouth on Day 1 to put in a very detailed analysis of scummy play, I almost got myself killed. Let's also add in the fact that I was wrong, and I really don't want to "lead" another mislynch. I think I explained my disbelief of a DP/AGar scumpair because it was too big of a gambit for AGar to bus DP so early. However, with his unvote I'm kind of picking that back up...kind of. My vote for DP stems from the fact that he is just playing an utterly insane game. He's lied constantly (I don't even know if we can trust him on being a cop at all at this point), he's recently played a poor defense (asking someone for help? You attacked quadz and mallow for doing that before), and he's constantly switched positions on just about everyone in this game. It's mostly the persistent lies that have pushed me against him. He's either scum or the worst cop ever, and I'm leaning toward the former. Sure, a lie every now and then for the town can do some good, but no townie should have to lie as much as you are.

[AGar]

Okay, Thor seems to have a problem with me lurking. Let me explain: when I opened my mouth on Day 1 to put in a very detailed analysis of scummy play, I almost got myself killed. Let's also add in the fact that I was wrong, and I really don't want to "lead" another mislynch.

This heavy cautiousness isn't pro-town, man. Yes, we had a mislynch. Don't let the fact that you were wrong keep you from pushing forward. Giving up only helps the scum, it keeps pressure off of them. And 5 people were on that mislynch, not just you. One of those people was defending mallow, even, so you don't have much to worry about in that case.

Look, I had suspicions of you yesterday, but I'm on my heels about them because of your genuine attitude here. Scum aren't usually remorseful about a mislynch and worried about pushing another mislynch. Now come back out here swinging, push a case, and help us catch some scum. We need every player's POV so we can get the best lynches.

[DavidParker]

Obviously you can disregard all I say if I'm scum, or use it to find my scum buddy.

But here is what I feel: AGaR - DEFINITE town read. He is the one who pointed out how mallow made the planning comment with scumbuddies. Obviously, it could have been done to fool us and play the newb card by mallow so I didn't entirely believe it (hence why I hammered him) but when he flips town, I think this almost clears AGaR. Yes, this is largely reiterating thor's point, but I think it should be good to look back.

ThoR - After his useful last post, get a very good town feel from him.

Quadz - Town feel from him after he started speculating on a possible scum connection between Agar and myself, sure there wasn't much in it I feel, but he seems to be actively scum hunting and trying to find possible scum pairings.

Wraith - Biggest scum feel from him. Even now when he posts and answers my questions, he is just lurking. He doesn't add anything. He only added something on Day 1 when basically forced into doing it, and his entire big post where he "scum-hunted" seemed VERY FORCED and just reinforced my scum read on him.

NS - Neutral. As stated, he's the IC so getting a read on him when half the time he's trying to do his job and "teach" us and the other half trying to win the game, makes it hard. I do get an odd feel from him though.

SB - Neutral. Had a town feel for a lot of yesterday, but with recent events, the killing off of uite the other town feel, it's hard to say I have valid reason to say I have a town read on him, mostly just second guessing my initial read I think.

So, with no further ado, switching my vote to who I believe to be the scummiest.

VOTE: Wraith



Alright the mallow Lynch, my defence:

I was the one who probably defended mallow more than anyone yesterday, and ironically that doesn't help my case. As scum would KNOW he's town. However, scum would probably not hammer someone they have been saying is town (nor would town) for a while, anyways, that's a lot of WIFOM so I won't go there. I had defended mallow because while he had made some of the scummiest actions, to me he had made some of the least scummy. From past games I've played, people who have led the bandwagons haven't been scum, he had led the bandwagons on me. Sure someone said scum sometimes have to try lead justified bandwagons on people to seem town and fit in, but games I've played they've never done this so actively, so that gave me my initial town read on him. EVen when i was at L-1 on day 1, and posting my scum list, mallow was a town read for me. Then there was the post Agar pointed out which gave me a town read. However, mallow had backtracked various points and just dug himself a big whole. He said he would hammer me if he could (anti-town in itself, yes i know i'm being a hypocrit cuz tahts what i did to him ending day 1).

So why would I hammer someone who was only being defended by himself and ME (to some extent)? Because I started to doubt myself.. I kept second guessing my read on him as town, as he had done some fairly scummy things as pointed out by uite/SB etc. (can't be bothered digging them up atm) There was a solid case against him.. And, I was getting impatient and anxiious as this is someone I had defended to some extent, so I decided to just hammer and get it over with thinking that would clear my head, rather than dragging it out> Also, the games I'm used to playing have FARRRR shorter deadlines so I was getting a little impatient as well. I'm well aware it's anti-town, but that's for you to determine whether it's anti-town or scummy.

Regardless, I have a case to present against Wraith in my next post, as far as I see he's most definitely scum or a very newb player (like myself? )

[DavidParker]

And yeah, I agree it makes no sense that I hammer'd mallow after defending him.

But using that against me? It doesn't make sense if I'm a scum, just as it doesn't make sense if I'm a townie..

Reread of Wraith reveals an interesting case against him...

[AGar]

And yeah, I agree it makes no sense that I hammer'd mallow after defending him.

But using that against me? It doesn't make sense if I'm a scum, just as it doesn't make sense if I'm a townie..

Makes more sense as scum - a mislynch is a mislynch, no two ways about it.

[Thor665]

tl:dr

AGar is being weird in his "pressure" on me, I want to know what he's thinking there and if he even actually has an issue with the slot (he can't have an issue with me because I am loved by all, natch).

Wraith is a fence sitting superhero and I offer reasons why.

DavidParker's last post is a giant plate of WIFOM and further contradictions. He's been lying since pretty much day 1 post 1 and his playstyle is shifting around in what appears to be no more then a quest not to get lynched.

================================================================

@AGar

Glad to see you immersing. Unfortunately, can't give you a pass though, because the slot has been impossible to read up until now. Sorry, brotha. Gotta keep some level of attentiveness up until more comes forth.

I neither ask for nor expect a pass. However, since you're apparently not giving me one after not really expressing any issues with my slot other then perhaps an inability to read it I do have to question what was the purpose of mentioning this while not attempting to get any more out of me?

@Wraith

Okay, Thor seems to have a problem with me lurking. Let me explain: when I opened my mouth on Day 1 to put in a very detailed analysis of scummy play, I almost got myself killed. Let's also add in the fact that I was wrong, and I really don't want to "lead" another mislynch.

AGar covered my thoughts here quite well - in the final analysis town shouldn't worry about survival, they should worry about catching scum. Unless your role PM says something special about you in particular lasting to the end of the game this shouldn't even beetle your brow.

I think I explained my disbelief of a DP/AGar scumpair because it was too big of a gambit for AGar to bus DP so early. However, with his unvote I'm kind of picking that back up...kind of.

You're kind of picking it up kind of? Could you make this statement any more vague?

While we're at it, why is it more likely for AGar to be scum because of his interactions with DP? Scum would want to distance from their partner and town would want to catch scum - if you're using it as a scumtell for a potential DP/AGar pair you should be able to tell me why it's more likely to be a scum action then a town action. I don't see that likelihood.

My vote for DP stems from the fact that he is just playing an utterly insane game. He's lied constantly (I don't even know if we can trust him on being a cop at all at this point)

...you don't know if we can trust him on his cop claim? You're voting him - presumably you're voting him because you believe he is scum (if not, please let me know so I can vote you right now). If you believe he is scum then by definition you do not believe he is the cop. Why are you so uncertain to say even this? It's a level of fence-sitting that boggles the mind (and my mind boggles oh so very easily)

@DavidParker

I actually agree with some of his reads on Wraith, but I find the constant WIFOM dithering to be less palatable. Also, he goes out of his way to describe his experiences in other games and then ends the post by suggesting that Wraith and his own mistakes are perhaps just newbie related.

We've come a long way from the uber confidence of Day 1, that's for sure.

Question - if at the end of this Day Phase we were about to lynch someone (let's say silverbullet, because I like to pick on him in examples) and AGar had requested you to reveal your town investigation at that point - what would you have done?

[Thor665]

And yeah, I agree it makes no sense that I hammer'd mallow after defending him.

But using that against me? It doesn't make sense if I'm a scum, just as it doesn't make sense if I'm a townie..

Makes more sense as scum - a mislynch is a mislynch, no two ways about it.

Though really that's predicated on a belief that scumDavid already figured he was either busted for Day 2 regardless or that he felt uber safe within his cop claim. It's strange for scum to set up a townie defense and then hammer said townie - kinda ruins the point of trying to get the town cred.

I think it's fairly obvious the hammer is a newbie tell, not a scum or town tell - unless you see something I'm missing here.

[DavidParker]

Case against Wraith:

Introduction: The main thing that caught my attention on Wraith is how active he is but how much he seems to lurk. He is prompt in responding to questions and posts quite a lot (but very short posts, with little information). He had a brief period where he posted 2 long "scum-hunting" posts, but those were out of character for him, because people demanded it mostly. A town aligned player would use this active-ness to scum hunt and dig up cases on people, not lurk and read what other people are saying but not presenting any cases himself, but just sittin on the fence and using his defence of "oh i'm bad at recognizing scum"

Part 1: Early game tells:

Point 1: VERY early on admits he is bad at recognizing scum... This basically can be brought up again later to justify any votes on someone who he claimed was scummy but flips as town.

Point 2: Early on admits to having hosted a number of games elsewhere, but more importantly read through a few games here while waiting for his account to be validated... (Used this in response to a question regarding his bad scum reading)

Why is this relevent? He later asks (in seriousness) if we can no lynch.. If he'd read through a few games here he'd know that no lynch isn't a viable option. I don't know whether he's lying about having read through a few games here (he used that to answer a question about why is he bad at scum hunting) or whether his suggestion of a no lynch was to seem less scummy.. Either way it's a ludicrous request to make...

Point 3(IMPORTANT): In response to a question of what he would do as a cop at L-1:

2. Claim. If you die, you did nothing to help the town. You'll at least get the Doc to help you (there is a Doc in a game with a Cop) or force the scum to NK you.

Now, now, there's a doctor in the game???? SAYS WHO??? The only one who knows there's a doctor in the game (if there's a cop) is the mafia. It's been proven there is a roleblocker in the game because I was roleblocked last night. However, even if there's a cop in the game there's only a 50% chance there's a doctor. If there's both, there's a roleblocker for mafia, if there's only a cop, mafia have no roleblocker. This post implies Wraith KNOWS that there is a roleblocker in the game on day 1. Unless this was a HUGE slipup in wording, Wraith has to be scum.

Point 4: Said he would hammer me when asked, when it was well into day 1. Obviously, I don't think this is hugely important, but it is anti-town (just like my hammer was anti-town I know, no need to point out the hypocrisy in a lot of my accusations).

Everything Wraith seems to be doing is following the crowd. He follows the crowd in voting for me, then when 1 or 2 unvote he follows them in voting someone else.

Point 5: Wraith persists on questioning whether I claimed cop or not. As mafia you would want this clarified by me, so you know if I'm claiming cop or not. A small detail, but possibly scummy.

Point 6:

I do believe he and mallow are opposite alignments

Wraith was trying to push a mislynch on one of the two of u on day 1. He was trying to restrict the town to voting for one of us. When it was perfectly plausible that both of us were town. He justified this by saying, that mallow had attacked me and tried to bandwagon against me.. If anything if I turn town, that seemed to make him town as well for urging a mislynch not something a mafia would readily do (when there wasn't a real case against me just people not liking me for flaming them and being arrogant early!)

Point 7:

Ha, come to think of it, I might be wrong reading AGar as town based on the one post about No Lynch statistics. He may be scum trying to subtly lead us into a mislynch.

UGH What? Another stupid/meaningless post by wraith.. Of course we are going to lynch someone on day 1, agar pointing out that we have to lynch someone on day 1 is NOt scummy......

Point 8:

Speaking of misinterpretations, there's silver's comment on the earlier questions about the "extra vote hammer." Either you're not reading or you're digging for scumduggery, my bet's on the latter. Let's talk about that vote and that question. I initially voted DP because he was the scummiest player at the time. I said I would hammer if I had the extra vote because he was being a jerk at the time. I switched my vote because not only has DP stopped being a jerk (blatantly at least, he still jabs at people subtly, but don't we all?) but also because mallow has emerged as a scummier player. That answer your analysis?

Another example of his bandwagoning. You initially bandwagoned the vote on DP because I was the scummiest according to those leadin that bandwagon (mallow etc). You then switched your vote because a few other people had switched to mallow and he was now the scummiest according to those leading that bandwagon. Why did you not try to find any scum yourself at any point?

Point 9: I'll just use SB's arguement here:

@Wraith

I have nothing useful to contribute at the moment, just maintaining my vote against mallow. I think Uite and NS make sound cases against him and further justify my suspicions.

It's always better to attempt to contribute something rather than nothing. Right now your just backing the arguments Uite and NS made, this gives you the perfect defense if their investigation ends up lynching him and he flips town. me no likie.

Part 2: His reaction to pressure

:

Point 1: He get's very sensitive and defensive... Here's a "lolworthy" example:

@silver: Why wouldn't it? Would YOU appreciate being accused of being scum?

@Beefster: If I wasn't already voting for a scummier player I'd probably vote for DP, not only because he also seems scummy to me but also because he's accusing me of scum, probably in retaliation for voting for him earlier in the day.

Point 2(Important): You then go onto try to explain that I am voting for you ONLY as revenge for you voting for me earlier... Um if I wanted to get back at anyone it would be those who started the bandwagon on me mallow/quadz etc. (well i guess i did get back at mallow heh)... You just joined in the bandwagon.. THe fact YOU tried to justify someone else's vote and explain it makes no sense. Why are you explaining my vote? I'm the only one who can explain it, and let me tell you it's because you read like scum. You still read like scum. And you probably are Scum.

Point 3: Now Wraith gets a few votes I think and how does he react??? A long post of him "scum-hunting" ! Yay! NOT. He basically just attacks someone who is already prestented as a possible scum (mallow) and reiterates the arguements everyone has used. There is nothing pro-town about his long post. He has just made it to try get suspicion of him. The entire thing seems FAKE AND FORCED.

DavidParker: leaning pro-town, but he seems hell-bent on hunting for scum that aren't there

OH trust me, the Scum IS THERE.

Point 4: His idea of "scum-hunting" is seeing the obvious and showing the obvious to his comrades??? There's a quote somewhere for this.. He also admits to playing stupider than he actually is.. That is a COMMON scum ploy from so many games I've played in.. Oh I found the quote:

And to reply to one of DP's earlier comments: of course it's beneficial to me to play stupider than I actually am initially. Yeah, I still am not the best scumhunter, but my scumdar wasn't made in 1942. I can see the obvious, and I can show the obvious to my comrades.

Point 5: More of Wraith not dealing well with people voting for him...

I'm rather annoyed that the people who are voting for me are:

1. Ignoring major scumtells on mallow (early lynch, BW<<<<this just flashes red to me)
2. Insisting that my defense of myself is scummy. We're at the tipping point here, and apparently attempting to keep myself from getting killed is a scumtell.
3. Believing DP's case over mine. His entire case is based around the vague ambiguity that I am trying to blend in as town too much. I've pointed out several scumtells that mallow has slipped up with. The only case DP has against me is that I'm defending myself against lynch.

They can choose whose case to believe whenever they want...

Part 3: His scum buddy!

Alright, no real points to be made, but will quote some stuff possibly. As thor stated, there is an obvious scum buddy: Nobody_Special! Although, not entirely convinced it would be him if Wraith is scum, there is one post by NS to distance himself from Wraith, but that was around when Wraith was L-2..

His Random vote is for nobody special. Obvious not really a tell in any way or shape of form. But who knows, sometimes random votes start an early bandwagon that gets people to L-1, its happened in other games, and then usually that person doesnt even get lynched. Also, some early game discussion between the two regarding his avatar, not sure if there's any messages to be read in that!

Now the main reasoning to believe this scum-pairing: Well, for starters, all of Wraith's scum lists, show NS in a pro-town reading. But with no reasoning or justification behind it. He sometimes justifies other reads of his but never this one...

1. mallowgeno: scumdar shooting sparks
2. silverbullet: pro-town, scumhunter extraordinaire
3. quadz08: It's a toss-up, but doing that analysis (especially with mallow's vote against him) I'm inclined to think he was a townie who fell for buddying
4. Uite: pro-town, scumhunter
5. DavidParker: leaning pro-town, but he seems hell-bent on hunting for scum that aren't there
6. AGar: neutral. I think he needs to participate some more
7. Beefster: Leaning pro-town, need more posts to decide
8: NS: Leaning pro-town

Is also "careful" about it by saying leaning pro-town rather than the uite "protown scumhunter". The main thing bringing doubt to this pairing for me is when NS went "on the attacK 'against Wraith for a very brief time in day 1. I still forsee a possible quadz pairing with him.

[Wraith]

@Thor: What I meant when I said "I'm kinda picking up the AGar/DP scumteam again" is "sure they're a possibility, but I doubt they would run a scum-voting-scum gambit so early on an obvious target for a BW. But wait, AGar's unvoted from DP to prevent a hammer. Could he be preventing a mistake?" While it is a remote possibility, I'm more inclined to keep the belief that AGar is town, because his vote and case against DP is a lot more convincing than DP's case against whoever he cares to accuse at the moment.

What I meant when I said "don't trust DP's cop claim" was "He's lied and played WIFOM so much at this point don't trust a word he says anymore." At least that's what I'm going to do. Like I said, one little white lie for the town can be a good thing (ie in a dethy game I hosted a cop player lied about a result to trick the scum into letting his guard down) but DP's lied so much that I can't trust anything he says:

1. He defends mallowgeno ferociously, then goes back on everything he's said in mallow's defense when he hammers
2. Claims cop despite producing no valid results
3. Claims he has a result from Night 1 but refuses to reveal it
4. Goes back on his claim of having a result and claims being roleblocked (also after he claimed that he believed there was no RB in this game)
5. He's been playing WIFOM as has been pointed out and has tried to pull a "What am I doing wrong person who accused me?" defense

In addition, his vote earlier for silverbullet has no basis other than strange logic, and therefore I am led to believe it was a malicious OMGUS. Some of the questions he's posed (silver asked one earlier) are trick questions: "Would you hammer now?" is the main example. If you say "Yes" you're a scum player trying to get a mislynch. If you say "No" you're a scum player trying to sit on the fence. Also, regarding his post where he claimed roleblock, he says that he was trying to convince the mafia that he was VT with his earlier lies. This makes no sense. If a claimed cop has a result and doesn't reveal it, and there is no cc, he's an easy kill and the info dies with him. What I think he is is a scum player trying to do is save himself by seeding doubt in our minds, claiming cop and then claiming "I was trying to blend as VT to trick the mafia." A claimed cop at this point would try to get out as much information as he can to help the town since he will soon be dead to a night kill.

It seems DP posted a large case against me while I was writing this. I'll post a response soon.

[Thor665]

1. He defends mallowgeno ferociously, then goes back on everything he's said in mallow's defense when he hammers
2. Claims cop despite producing no valid results
3. Claims he has a result from Night 1 but refuses to reveal it
4. Goes back on his claim of having a result and claims being roleblocked (also after he claimed that he believed there was no RB in this game)
5. He's been playing WIFOM as has been pointed out and has tried to pull a "What am I doing wrong person who accused me?" defense

1. Agreed. Do you believe this is proof of scum or newbishness - and why is that?
2. Well...he did claim Day 1, it's impossible to have results then. This is not scummy.
3. Per a request by AGar - there really is no need to misrep him, his hole is very deep all by itself.
4. Yes, this is quite scummy and is why I wish to lynch him.
5. Didn't you do some of this as well? (t'was either you or quard while SB was pressuring them). Also, quite frankly, if someone is calling you scum they *should* be able to tell you why. This isn't scummy.

Wraith, whom do you find most scummy after David? I'm still really not seeing that AGar connection you keep dancing around (as you're now calling him town), is he indeed your next top suspect? If not him who, and why?

[DavidParker]

I fully agree and acknowledge I have lied and backtracked and acted scummy. When I am lynched I'm just saying that revealing me as town-aligned you'll have your first scum in Wraith is my guess.

[Wraith]

First, I will address my playstyle. I have much more experience hosting than actually playing and that greatly affects how I play. As a host, you know exactly who is who and what is going on. I am used to merely watching action play out and posting only in terms of exposition, but I do enjoy playing mentally-heavy games so I'm trying to get into this as much as possible. I have "pushed a lot of content" as you say it despite multiple claims that I have not.

I did think I was genuinely terrible at finding scum. I once threw a game to the scum in LYLO because I wasn't looking for scumtells on nowhere near the level of detail I have this game. I've found that, perhaps, I have the potential of being a good scumhunter. Also, he brings up that I read a few games here. I read a few of the SHORTER games and skimmed through larger ones to see major turning points. I didn't comb through each of them like I have combed through this game.

On point 3, this was a genuine mistake on my part. I badly misread the F11 setups (or C9, I don't know) and thought that every game there was a cop there was a doctor. I said that back when I was starting to believe your cop claim, but right now I believe that this is a non-PR game.

On point 4, I've already explained why I said I would hammer (because you were flaming). You're selectively pointing out things that make me look scummy even though these things have already been sufficiently explained.

On point 5, I have already explained that I was exceedingly confused by people referring to you as a cop claim despite you only hypothetically asking what to do if you were cop. Again, you are selectively quoting me.

On point 6, you state my reasons for my belief of opposite alignments - because of how ferociously mallow attacked you for the first few pages. This belief gradually declined as you began to defend mallow but it has now shot to certainty in my view, as mallow turned out to be town and I am firm in my belief that you are scum.

On point 7, it can easily be of one's opinion to believe that someone is manipulating us with statistics. It has been done before many times in real life.

On point 8, I think I stated in very clear, detailed terms why I maintained my suspicion and vote on mallowgeno. It was to my belief that he was scum based on extremely scummy play, not because of the bandwagon.

On point 9, that was honestly a newbie thing and now I know not to just say "Yo, I'm here, but I've got nothing to say." As everyone knows, and I've stated before, I put down my case against mallow later on in clear, detailed form, and doing so made me look extremely suspicious anyways, for some reason. You are manipulating my posting history to make me look like scum no matter what I do. According to you, "sitting on the fence" and lurking to see how things play out make me scum, but making a detailed case against someone and then maintaining a firm belief in that (sound, if ultimately incorrect) case also makes me scum?

As for my defense, let's address your "key" point. I did not "explain" as you say that your reason for voting for me was because of retaliation, I merely believed that was your reason and stated that that was my belief. I never knew for sure what your reason was, but now it is clear to me that you are picking up one of the scummier-looking players (he did it with quadz before me, who was the most suspicious mid-Day One) and attempting to get them lynched by slectively quoting and manipulating the facts. In regards to point 3 on my defense, this is just incredibly hypocritical. He is doing the EXACT same thing against me (scumhunting someone who is suspicious), but is using my own scumhunting defense as "evidence" to my scumminess.

In conclusion, I'll say this - I don't know what everyone else might think, but I've played an honest game up to this point. I've stated my cases and opinions honestly and directly despite the fact that it might have made me look scummy. DP has played an extremely dishonest game, bouncing around with his cop-claiming, suspicions, OMGUSing, and the recent incredible web of lies surrounding his so-called "investigation results" and "roleblocking." His case against me relies on large amounts of selective quoting, as has been pointed out, and hypocrisy, especially in regards to his claims that I am scummy based on no matter I do, whether it's when I'm "fence-sitting" or pushing a case or "bandwagoning." He's clearly played the most dishonest game and has used the shakiest and/or hypocritical logic in all his cases against his endless suspects.

[Wraith]

Geez, I take so long with my analyses. People keep posting in between!

@Thor:

On 2: I am referring to Day 2. He maintained a cop claim despite lying about having a result and then claiming roleblock. He has no results and has bounced around different excuses as to why he doesn't have them yet maintains a cop claim. Thus, my conclusion that the cop claim is false, that there are no PRs (no doc claim, no cop cc), and that DP is scum.

On 5. I think that was quadz. If I was playing WIFOM I was unaware of it. The closest I can think of me playing WIFOM was my response to silver about being "offended" by DP's accusation, when I said "Wouldn't you be offended if someone accused you?"

After David, probably quadz. His defense on Day One was pretty iffy.

[DavidParker]

@ Wraith: Why do you believe it's a non PR game???!?

And why do you think NS is town?

[DavidParker]

Well, I'm pretty confident as to who I'm gonna vote for today (at least at this time), but I'm gonna wait for NS and Beefster to contribute their views first.

Also, once again Wraith sitting on the fence waiting to bandwagon others...


It's funny how you are suddenly "Sure I am scum" when I attack you and are trying to focus on my scumminess in your posts. My scumminess has been highlighted, just stick to answering my questions rather than diverting the attention of your posts to how I'm scum,

We all know I'm scum already (/sarcasm), no need to keep repeating it when the only thing of interest is in the rest of your posts.

It's funny because you are so shaky right now. You are worried people might bandwagon you today, that's why you are so focus'd on trying to get me lynched today, just so you can survive another day. I know you're scum, while everyone else might not, they sure will know tomorrow when I've been lynched and revealed as town. You better hope you're partner is clever enough to win on day 4, cause you're getting lynched tomorrow and scum will be down to 1.

[DavidParker]

edit: Rest of your points*

[silverbullet999]

omg walls of text, I'll read and comment sometime later tonight... or tommorow morning.

[AGar]

@AGar

Glad to see you immersing. Unfortunately, can't give you a pass though, because the slot has been impossible to read up until now. Sorry, brotha. Gotta keep some level of attentiveness up until more comes forth.

I neither ask for nor expect a pass. However, since you're apparently not giving me one after not really expressing any issues with my slot other then perhaps an inability to read it I do have to question what was the purpose of mentioning this while not attempting to get any more out of me?

Oddly (and poorly) worded by me, I apologize. I was basically saying that I see your actions as townish, and I want to eliminate you from suspicion at this point, but unfortunately you're in a role slot that's been highly inactive and that I expressed a bit of suspicion towards in late D1 (Beefster was playing follow the case-maker)

And yeah, I agree it makes no sense that I hammer'd mallow after defending him.

But using that against me? It doesn't make sense if I'm a scum, just as it doesn't make sense if I'm a townie..

Makes more sense as scum - a mislynch is a mislynch, no two ways about it.

Though really that's predicated on a belief that scumDavid already figured he was either busted for Day 2 regardless or that he felt uber safe within his cop claim. It's strange for scum to set up a townie defense and then hammer said townie - kinda ruins the point of trying to get the town cred.

I think it's fairly obvious the hammer is a newbie tell, not a scum or town tell - unless you see something I'm missing here.

Touche.

And why do you think NS is town?

Where was this said by Wraith? I just checked ISO and couldn't find it.

---

Also, a bit of a point that I'm a bit worried about.

I was thinking the logistics of the DP cop/scum situation. This next part is gonna have a bit of WIFOM to it, but it needs to be put out there regardless.

There's one part of this whole claim by DP that doesn't make any sense for a scum false-claiming. That's the fact that he backpedaled on his lie about not being roleblocked and admitted to it. 4 living players in this game have said they prefer lynch-all-liars, and a fifth has said situationally he'd consider it. That's enough for a lynch and then some. Most scum (and this is where I'm dipping into WIFOM, but it's not so bad as you would think) would generally continue the lie of saying they weren't blocked and give up a town player until they got lynched, because backpedalling is more likely to get them lynched. It's just a bad play to backpedal. Now sure, DP could have banked on someone catching onto this with his play, but that doesn't seem to be his play style. To be blunt, he's just not that smart about it. So either he made a dumb cop play or a dumber scum play.

I dunno, I just felt it needed to be brought up.

Hmmm... debating an idea, but I have work in less than an hour, so I'll simmer it over at work and come back to you guys with it tomorrow.

Can y'all do me a favor and make sure David lives to see at least another 24 hours, preferably more potentially?