Newbie 965 (Game Over)

[DavidParker]

Well, on day 1 he said he felt NS was town, but didn't justify it in any way.

[DavidParker]

Feel free to tell me what your current stance on NS's alignment is and why, Wraith.

[Jeffcole1]

Vote Count 2.3:

DavidParker (2): quadz08, Wraith
Wraith (1): David Parker

Not Voting (4): silverbullet999, AGar, Thor665, Nobody Special

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 votes to lynch.

[Thor665]

Can y'all do me a favor and make sure David lives to see at least another 24 hours, preferably more potentially?

I'll fully support that initiative, it's one of the reasons I haven't voted yet. We still need to hear silver's new thoughts and have two other players who still need to weigh in before I'd be comfortable with an end to the Day.

I've been having the same niggle you had with David, as I even said in my read on him my gut was that he was town. The problem being is it's so painfully dangerous if we don't lynch him and then manage to mislynch today - that will leave us in lylo with him still kicking (and if he's telling the truth I see no way scum will bother to kill him). I personally have issues with Nobody and Wraith, but I'm not sure I feel confident enough on either of them to be sure of hitting scum. If we don't lynch David and do manage to hit scum it's less dangerous, but that's just not a guarantee.

I guess the pro for not lynching David is, if he's telling the truth, it will obligate scum to roleblock him and give the Doc a chance to get lucky - but that's all I really see.

[Thor665]

@David

I asked you this in one of my earlier posts, and you've posted multiple times now without answering so I'll re-ask.

What were you going to do if this Phase had ended with town ready to lynch 'Player X' and then AGar had asked you for what townie your investigation had 'cleared'?

[DavidParker]

I would have stated that it's for the benefit of the town not to know. Since I was roleblocked, there's obviously a doctor in the game capable of protecting me. By revealing who is town aligned, the mafia now have a target for their night kill, sure the doctor could protect him, but then maybe the mafia would be capable of killing off the cop. Although, there's so many people voting for me now, I don't see why mafia would kill me for any reason now, but that's if your situation had happened.

I could have revealed my information tomorrow just as easily, and that reduces the chance said confirmed-townie gets night killed.

[Wraith]

David, you seem to be unable to comprehend of idea of "defense." You are attacking me, therefore I am attacking you back. As you have constantly, you are claiming my scumhunting make me scum, along with every other action I take. As for your questions, you continue to fail to respond to any of my counterpoints I make and therefore I will not answer your questions.

However, I will answer one, on why I think it's a no-PR game. You seem to be unable to read my posts in full as well, and I have twice explained that this is a no-PR game because I don't believe your cop-claim, no one has cc'ed, and no one has Doc-claimed.

[Thor665]

Why would a Doc claim at this point?

[silverbullet999]

Alright slowly going through all posts,

Thor's quote (as I'm too lazy to do it properly)

For a second this one gave me a heart attack and made me question my reading comprehension. I will note, that with Nobody Special in the game I do generally support careful use of certain words.

HAHAHA Thor your whole inital post made my day : D


I liked wraith's post and also say that he should do this
AGAR quote

Look, I had suspicions of you yesterday, but I'm on my heels about them because of your genuine attitude here. Scum aren't usually remorseful about a mislynch and worried about pushing another mislynch. Now come back out here swinging, push a case, and help us catch some scum. We need every player's POV so we can get the best lynches.

Comment on DP's post

ThoR - After his useful last post, get a very good town feel from him.

Thor is like a townie kitten! Always fun to have around! : P

SB - Neutral. Had a town feel for a lot of yesterday, but with recent events, the killing off of uite the other town feel, it's hard to say I have valid reason to say I have a town read on him, mostly just second guessing my initial read I think.

Is this because i've been for the most part tunneling on you? I still see you as a huge risk... everything in my head says your scum... but my gut reads a very very bad townie....

DP quote

I kept second guessing my read on him as town, as he had done some fairly scummy things as pointed out by uite/SB etc. (can't be bothered digging them up atm)

I'd like to point out that, while I did read some scummy actions from him, I was not at all bought that he was full fledged scum yet.

Thor quote

because I am loved by all, natch).

Bestest kitty ever : )

Thor quote

(let's say silverbullet, because I like to pick on him in examples)

Bad Kitty! (Yes I'm now going to refer to you as a kitty for the rest of the game! : P)

DP again
I like your point 3 for part 2, (I was convinced of scum for someone asking me a question and saying "Think Carefully" at the end *looks at NS*)... oooo your so like me in my previous game.... except more... extreme in a not so good way.

Wraith's response is interesting

Also not to umm copy your ideas but I feel the same way you do right now basically
Thor Quote

I've been having the same niggle you had with David, as I even said in my read on him my gut was that he was town. The problem being is it's so painfully dangerous if we don't lynch him and then manage to mislynch today - that will leave us in lylo with him still kicking (and if he's telling the truth I see no way scum will bother to kill him). I personally have issues with Nobody and Wraith, but I'm not sure I feel confident enough on either of them to be sure of hitting scum. If we don't lynch David and do manage to hit scum it's less dangerous, but that's just not a guarantee.

Overall here's my reads
Wraith: leaning scum
Davidparker: I wanna say scum but for some reason my gut reads very very dangerous cop
Agar: leaning town
Thor: Town Kitten
Nobody: Neutral
Quadz: leaning scum (mainly still from first day)

Also I'll wait for Agar's plan and NS's read before I vote, though honestly I'm torn as to who to go for atm.

[DavidParker]

@SB: If for some reason we lynch wraith today and he flips scum, would you still suspect me? If you lynch me, and I flip scum, would you still suspect Wraith?

[DavidParker]

@ Wraith: I'm not arguing with your counterpoints because I see no need to do that. I'm glad you chose to choose which questions to answer, and answer the least important one. If you want to ask me anything (you might it makes you look less scummy although it's too late now) go ahead, ill answer.

HERE I'LL ASK YOU AGAIN: What is your current stance on NS's alignment and why? And would you find him more suspicious following a lynch on me which revealed me as town? Also, do you think it's possible he's a scum partner with me?

[AGar]

Ok, so my work shift got cut short (Woo!)

Here's the deal. (I.e, my plan)

For DP to be a cop and for his story to check out, we need a doctor in this setup. No doctor = no roleblocked cop = scum DP. Doctor = roleblocked cop (potentially) = potentially cop DP. Doctor does not prove anything. Lack of a doctor disproves everything.

Time for newbie game 101 - Doctor is practically a completely ineffective role in newbie games. It's there so that someone has the potential chance of blocking a nightkill and giving the scum a fighting chance, but it occurs ~8% of the time. That's not a high hope. Four scenarios generally play out with doctors most of the time in F11 games:
1) Doctor is lynched D1 for scummy behavior after the player tries to lay low to avoid attention from the mafia at night.
2) Doctor survives D1, protects player they feel to be most pro-town. Player is either mafia or not the biggest threat to the mafia. Generally does not go through, someone else dies.
3) Doctor survives D1 to die N1 because they either gave off a doctor read to good scum, or they played too pro-town.
4) Doctor survives D1, cop claims D1, doctor protects cop, mafia does not hit cop, knowing there is a doctor, and hunts for doctor.

Basically, the doctor is a glorified town role that the town does NOT need to win.

So what I'm suggesting is a full-town popcorn style claim.

The key to this working to it's full potential is everyone being completely and 100% honest about their role. Do not try and save yourself if you are the doctor by saying you are a townie. Do not try and draw the mafia out if you are a townie by saying you are the doctor. If you're mafia, just type in red font.

Popcorn style claim is where players claim one at a time. Each player claims, then picks the next player in line to claim.

Yes, I am sacrificing the doctor with this plan. With this information, either DavidParker or the doctor will die tonight (if there is a doctor).

If there is not a doctor, however, we have caught DavidParker redhanded in his lies and have found one scum, and are in good position for tomorrow.

No one claim until the town has agreed to this and I will begin the popcorn claim.

I will reiterate what I am saying in a few tl;dr lines.

TL;DR

1. If there is no doctor, DavidParker is scum. End of story.
2. If the town approves of the idea, we will do a one at a time mass-claim, started by me.
3. DO NOT LIE IN YOUR CLAIM. IF YOU ARE THE DOCTOR, SAY YOU ARE THE DOCTOR. IF YOU ARE A TOWNIE, SAY YOU ARE A TOWNIE. IF YOU ARE SCUM, SAY YOU ARE SCUM. IF YOU LIE, THE WHOLE PLAN FAILS.
4. Yes, the doctor will likely die. No, we will not be at a major loss if this happens.
5. NO ONE CLAIM YET UNTIL THE TOWN COMES TO A CONSENSUS.

And yes, I have a contingency if we get two doc claims, fear not. I thought this over for four hours while I flipped burgers.

[silverbullet999]

If for some reason we lynch wraith today and he flips scum, would you still suspect me? If you lynch me, and I flip scum, would you still suspect Wraith?

1.Depends on your actions
2.Somewhat

@agar
I agree to it

[DavidParker]

From past games mass claim strat has always failed, and I fear here may be no different :/

[quadz08]

Wooooooooooooooooooo!!! Walls o' text!!!

@DP: I find many things in your wall o' text to be strange/foolish/scummy. For one, like Wraith pointed out, you aren't giving him credit where credit is due. Building on that idea, you are not only ignoring whatever redeeming posts he may have, but NOT actively searching out other scum candidates. Had you posted a balanced, fair eval of Wraith, or made it a post about the scummy features of other players than the one you've been focusing on for a while, I wouldn't have this quarrel. I just get a scummy feel reading through that whole thing; it's so biased. You could go though most anyone's posts and do the exact same thing.

@Wraith:

David, you seem to be unable to comprehend of idea of "defense." You are attacking me, therefore I am attacking you back.

Since when does offense = defense? That's a strange thing to say, indeed... I feel like you're doing much the same thing I did on Day 1: overreacting to accusations, and becoming overly defensive. I'm willing to believe that it's just the newb coming out, as it was with me... but it could also be scum freaking out on being targeted.

I am excited for AGar's idea! And silver's thoughts! But I am sad, because NS's familiar square-y avatar is conspicuously missing recently. Boooooo! But it's ok because he should be posting again tomorrow! Yayyyyy! /random statements

Ooh, look! A new post! From AGar!

@AGar: I have a question about this. If this does happen, and a doctor DOES claim, that (as you say) proves nothing. This means that DP could either be a roleblocked cop, or a lying scum, which is exactly where we are now. This means we've sacrificed the doctor, and opened the door for the mafia to cause more confusion with false claims. I'm not sure what I think just yet.

[DavidParker]

The idea does sound quite entertaining, but a doctor claiming doesn't even clear me...

Ie: I am scum, and we have no roleblocker, I know there's a cop or doctor in the game. By this point I believe there to be a doctor since no cop has counter claimed me, so agreeing to this popcorn style claim would just result in doctor coming out.

Also possible: I am scum, we have a roleblocker, My teammate claims to be the doctor. Obviously, the main problem here is if neither of us are lynched, we also won't be night killed either, suspicion may arise, but noone will be able to prove anything either way. This could result in a big WIFOM "oh scum left doctor and cop both alive to make ppl suspect them because it doesnt make sense".

So if I am scum, as you say this may reveal, mafia have a way out whether there is a doctor in the game or not (and mafia know that atm, basically)

[DavidParker]

And if i'm not scum, all it succeeds in doing is outing the doctor.. Don't see any real benefit sadly :/

[DavidParker]

Just go ahead and lynch me today then lynch wraith tomorrow if you are happy with the fact he is most likely scum given that I'm not.

[Thor665]

AGar's plan is lukewarm to me. I don't support it.

If we have no Doc claim we know David is scum and lynch him.
If we have a Doc claim we know...really no more then we do now except now scum know Doc (not a big deal since Doc is a wimp role I'll admit, but I see no reason to toss a pro town player under the bus for that).

I don't see a situation in either of the above two possibilities where I wouldn't support a David lynch either today or tomorrow. Since we're basically obligated to lynch him today or tomorrow (barring lucky roleblocker lynch) I see no reason to out a Doc for it. Am I missing something?

To my mind the only question is whether we roll the dice on David today or if we want to try to lynch someone else today (which I am still doubtful on as a plan but with three people claiming townie gut reads of some stripe on David it perhaps does bear consideration)

@QUADZ - could I see your top two suspects list and a brief reason why for each of them? Your last post appears like a scattergun attack and I'm not sure I have a good feeling for where you stand on the current scumminess of the players.

[Wraith]

I am not sure I fully understand AGar's mass-claim plan? What?

[AGar]

Yeah, I've re-considered my plan, it doesn't cover enough, so we'll just go ahead and scrap that. Didn't fully think it through like I thought I had at first. However, it gave me some insight into something... hmmm... more hunches = more isos. Will get back to y'all with the outcome of that iso when I get the chance to do it.

Otherwise, I'm all for a DP lynch today. Yes, I have that sneaking suspicion about his backpedalling, but something like that only causes more confusion for the town. Overall, DavidParker has been a massive distraction for the town and a huge pitfall for us in terms of scumhunting. At worst, he's scum. I hate to lynch someone that I'm not fully convinced is scum, but DP has caused too much of a distraction for the town to let us be useful.

[Thor665]

Why would a Doc claim at this point?

I'm re-asking this of Wraith because he missed/avoided it earlier. I talk mostly just to hear myself talk, but occasionally I like to act like I'm letting other people chime in as well.

I'm down with the David lynch for today. I'm open to the possibility of a Wraith lynch as I have found his actions pretty skeevy thus far.

This thread needs more of Nobody. Pun intended.

[Nobody Special]

Greetings,

Hi. Glad to have you aboard!

Nobody's claimed Doc

For a second this one gave me a heart attack and made me question my reading comprehension. I will note, that with Nobody Special in the game I do generally support careful use of certain words.

Heh. My username can be unfortunate at times. Sorry.

Both Nobody and Wraith are dropping DP/AGar pairing suspicions? Really? That's an interesting coincidence considering the lack of explanation for an AGar/DP pair from anyone up to that point. I don't like how Nobody is currently clearing DP...that said that seems an awfully dumb move for a scumbuddy (not that I accuse Nobody of having the best scum play in the world.

I don't recall dropping my suspicion of DP/AGar as a pair, notwithstanding my stance on DP. However, I'm internally raging on DP right now. More on this later.

Oh dear gawd...roleblock claim after investigation claim after...DP is either scum or a very large anchor around the neck of town.

My thoughts exactly.

But here is what I feel: AGaR - DEFINITE town read. He is the one who pointed out how mallow made the planning comment with scumbuddies. Obviously, it could have been done to fool us and play the newb card by mallow so I didn't entirely believe it (hence why I hammered him) but when he flips town, I think this almost clears AGaR. Yes, this is largely reiterating thor's point, but I think it should be good to look back.

Okay, I see this as you trying desperately to clear your buddy before you get lynched. I think you're scum, and I would surely not be surprised if AGar was your buddy.

Can y'all do me a favor and make sure David lives to see at least another 24 hours, preferably more potentially?

You aren't helping.

...

I am completely ready to lynch DP. I don't care if he's the cop or not. He has so badly thrown this game (IMO) that even if he is the cop, it would be better for him to not be here. I mean, honestly, how can we believe anything DP says at this point? He's raged, he's lied, he's bactracked his lies, he's...... I just can't. I. Just. Can't.

I am not voting now, as I'm just too irritated to vote with a clear conscience.

I will not vote until we have more discussion; I gladly invite anyone to raise points either pro-DP or con-DP. I will debate anything; but for now I can't vote.

I need to take several hours away from this game; I'm here online today off and on, and I'll check in as I can. I may not be online much tomorrow (Sunday) but Monday morning I'll be here all day (back to work and all).

[AGar]

Can y'all do me a favor and make sure David lives to see at least another 24 hours, preferably more potentially?

You aren't helping.

I see you're back and fully pulling things out of context.

I had asked this at the end of a post where I said I had a plan, but not enough time to explain the plan because I had to go to work. The plan, albeit being a flop because I didn't think it through quite as thoroughly as I had thought I had, centered around DP to an extent. Thus, I did not want to go to work and come back home to find DP lynched.

[Nobody Special]

You are correct. I s building my answer as I read through, and after your Plan was retracted, I neglected to pull that quote out. I retract it.