TM 2023 | Super Mario Bros Mafia | Game Over!

[Jingle]

My strategy here is the same as with all Mario games. Find yoshi. Drop yoshi in pit of lava. Win Game.

VOTE: peta

[Jingle]

It's safe to say I will be straight up ignoring the fire flower, since the only actual use of a doublevoter is balance considerations if scum has access to a doublevote and therefore it's garbage.

[Jingle]

This is probably correct regardless, but I think a double hammer would be really funny

Oh, hm. I hadn't considered it could be the type of doublevoter that would allow for two elims on D1.

To skip the beating around the bush:

@SIRCAKEZ, LORD OF TRASH:

Would the fire flower potentially be able to cause two eliminations on D1 by voting for two separate people?

If that is the case it might be the way the setup gets off of evens, and thus actually useful. Good catch.

[Jingle]

I probably know your play the best in this game

Weird flex given afaik you've both been retired for at least as long as I have.

[Jingle]

I think Fate's been retired since before I joined the site, wogurts (pronounced like Gogurt, fite me) used to be big in site admin stuff but is mostly lurker-y and I just finished my first game in two years. Even before that, Cerb basically only hydra'd with another player on his team. I think everyone else is reasonably active? Maybe?

[Jingle]

Out of my way! Low hanging fruit coming through.

You're adorable.

[Jingle]

Considering that means few have had the chance to play with them it still stands

Do you think Cerbs would specifically try to pocket a rusty player, though?

[Jingle]

Stop sheeping LLD, peta. She can't read me.

[Jingle]

Apparently my vote is now serious.

[Jingle]

LLD has never not scumread me and also we literally just swept a town together, it's not very impressive.

Koba wants to know what Dunn thinks.

[Jingle]

Kinda weird that you just rephrase my already asked questions and call it skipping beating around the bush.

Except that your question doesn't clarify whether a split vote double voter would cause a single hammer or a double hammer and would thus require a follow up question.

[Jingle]

I DID assume it was a traditional doublevote (Like it apparently is), but when you pointed out that it might actually serve a purpose, I felt getting the mech speak completely out of the way as quickly as possible was the right thing to do. What do you think about wgeurts?

[Jingle]

We should still probably give it to someone, right?

Why?

It doesn't do anything and just bloats the thread to do so.

[Jingle]

I specifically want no one to have it.

[Jingle]

What does that mean by bloats the thread?

It explicitly doesn't have any use for town and any discussion about who we should give it to is a waste of time. In a different game, the best use of a doublevoter is to use it once to confirm it exists and then never use it again because it taints VCA. We've already confirmed it exists, so we can safely just... not give a shit about the role and instead do actual AI indicative things instead of having a big mechanical red herring for scum to hide behind.

[Jingle]

You're the not ETL pig person, right?

[Jingle]

I answered my own question by looking at your join date. Don't worry about it Porkens.

[Jingle]

Adorable (Average ™ Enjoyers)
Radical Rat (Klickin’ Chickens)
HighPrincessErinys Whimsical Activities)
Cerberus v666 (We Don’t Mafia)
Cat Scratch Fever (Good in Plaid)
Wgeurts (Crispy Cream Puffs)
Petapan (Polymewl)

not spoken:
Fate (Ancient Guard)
Porkens (Pork Eaters)

A few pages old, but this is our working list.

[Jingle]

Why is wgeurts lower than Cerb?

Because we think wogurts has a strong potential to be scum aorn. Ask a silly question...

And yeah, the readslist was from a little before porkens came into the thread, but there's not much from the slot anyway.

[Jingle]

I think Cerb's posts have been lengthy and wordy but don't have much meat to them & feel vaguely pocket-y of wgeurts

I think if you look at it wogurts actually looks far worse in those interactions. 22 kind of implies wgeurts has the impression of being buddied, but there's no real follow up. It's very much a "look, I'm paranoid of you!" post, but I don't actually see any real paranoia. cerb otoh looks like someone who is reaching out for engagement.

As far as other posts by wgeurtz I disliked, the pressing of Adorable this early is NAGL and the defence of me/undermining peta's push raised my brows.

[Jingle]

jingle do you often make reads lists on page 4 of games

Mostly a sign that I'm bored with the pace of the game. I can't say I've played enough mafia since coming out of retirement to say I often do anything, and preretirement pinning down my meta based on specific actions was an exercise in futility.

[Jingle]

For ease of meta, my mafia playing for the last 5? years has all been on the account Bingle, and the only completed game since sometime in 2021 when I burned out hard is this one: viewtopic.php?t=90476

[Jingle]

yeah, some years ago FakeGod convinced me to make an alt to keep my modding and gameplay separate. I only play events like TM on my main nowadays.

[Jingle]

Oh, no, in this particular instance it was because I was talking through reads with Koba. We've probably talked more about this game today than there is actual content in this game. The curse of having free time and a teammate like Koba.

[Jingle]

The read is primarily koba's (and has been) but I'm not expected to force it through atm. I think you are scum independent of that, however.

[Jingle]

Do you seriously think you have reliable reads at this point?

I generally don’t think I have reliable reads on page 100. Reads are not the forte of my towngame, barring some specific players. I’m way better at managing the gamestate to make winning possible than actually having the right reads.

Doesn’t stop me litigating the reads I have though, because even if they’re wrong they generate reads for other people.

[Jingle]

That’s so insanely scummy

I’m not sure how it could be when it’s a generic philosophical response about my overall approach to the game. Do you think I’d lie when there’s an audience of like 70 people, and probably at least a third of them can confirm that is actually my thoughts about the game?

[Jingle]

this is especially true in team mafia because having 3 other people shouting in your ear very often creates an echo chamber effect that can lead you to confirmation bias your reads, and that can lead to people mutually tunneling each other and consuming the thread in a destructive fashion. i am trying to avoid this

Noted but also ew.

[Jingle]

I don't genuinely think Cerb was scum-buddying with me, prior to the game starting we were already excited to have the opportunity to play again and have some mafia history together. His post largely read as jest, and I responded with some pomp in turn. By itself, that post is entirely NAI. I am not paranoid of Cerb to put it simply, I'm playing along with them. ^^

This isn’t really an explanation of why what you did but an admission that it is what I was seeing. It also doesn’t really shake the feeling I got that your response was intended to make cerbs look worse.

I guess the question remains: what do you intend to do now to response to the reach out/establish a better groundwork to work with cerbs, and why haven’t you been doing it til now.

[Jingle]

Because there is very much a difference in Jingle expressly saying they don't think they EVER have reliable reads,

Not really a huge deal, but as a point of clarification this isn’t actually what I meant.

There are games when I’m confident on my reads. There are games when I’m confident on my reads from the early game. As a whole, I don’t think I am impressive in either my scumhunting or town hunting, although there are people who disagree. Even when I’m not confident on my reads, I’m going to be arguing them.

The ways in which I benefit the town, instead, are much more aligned with other aspects of the game. I’m great at recognizing and derailing shittunnels from other people. I’m good at dragging activity out of chronic lurkers. I’m one of the best, if not the actual best, at working with mechanics to make the game unwinnable for scum. I’m pretty good at gamestate analysis.

Not admitting the shortcomings I know I have doesn’t do me any good, and in fact hurts our chances.

Hope that explains things a bit better, although if it doesn’t I’ll ask you the same question I asked peta: “What could I possibly have to gain by lying publicly about my experience in front of a bunch of people who have seen me play?”

[Jingle]

Also got some commentary on Jingle from Xof.

Did they scumslip?

[Jingle]

I’m sodeeyeing porkers a bit for roughly the reasons you seem to be on our princess friend. There’s a lot of prima facie doing but not a lot that seems likely to lead anywhere. I’m not particularly interested in poking them atm though, because there IS the doing side of things and the going somewhere might be impending. I feel like it’ll be a better situation to read porkens if I just let them do their own thing for now.

[Jingle]

Sorry, porkens, for the porkers bits. My phone keeps trying to autocorrect your name and I keep not catching it.

While I do intentionally butcher usernames like wogurtses, I don’t do so with anything I think is potentially offensive on purpose and will definitely stop if asked.

[Jingle]

JINGLE DONT THREATEN YOUR TOWNREAD BY IGNORING ME

I don’t believe in fate. Like Santa or the irs you’re just one of those things we tell children to scare them into behaving.

[Jingle]

inaccurate one.

I didn't mean to imply you wouldn't be active. In fact, I would go so far to say that Team Mafia you will be almost identical to RR you as far as thread presence goes because you have Drixx whispering sweet nothings in your ear and that's how you always play from my reference point.

[Jingle]

For those questioning me, shhhhh, all in due time

Good thing RL kept me away from thread long enough to miss out on being blanket handwaived then!

Can you expand on where you've seen my name come up? I've definitely heard a lot of Fate stories (I believe you may be the founder of the Screaming Death Clan?) but it's interesting to me that you seem at least slightly familiar with me coming into this game where as far as I know you, uh, shouldn't be.

[Jingle]

Still feels insulting. Since you're talking about me, reaching out towards the person I know best in the game(especially one who I know is capable of putting together reads with actual reasoning behind them in the early game, which basically everybody fucking sucks at) is essential NAI. Town!Me does it because if I assume I have the best chance of catching them if scum, and if town I know we can work well together. Scum!Me does it because town!me would do it.

I'm not sure if you're talking to wgeurtz or me here, but FWIW I could definitely see a theoretical town cerb trying to pocket wgeurtz as a place to use for a start in putting the thread together. Pocketing isn't an exclusively scum activity, even if it is far less dangerous for scum because they don't have to worry about pocketing a scum player and just ending up a worthless pile of town crap.

When you get a chance could you give your thoughts on the wgeurtz scumlean I explained? I think you specifically are well placed to give insight.

[Jingle]

You evidently never had the pleasure of playing with me when I was active. That's how I play the game, I've got a spreadsheet I note people's thought progressions, votes, and go back to once people start flipping so I can find associative-tells and patterns. Cerb at minimum can vouch, that's just how I roll.

Not cerb, but yeah. When wgeurtz and I joined it was pretty par for the course for analytical players to have notes on everyone as town, regardless of the level of content. That particular bit is NAI. You should focus more on content and whether you think the content is real or if it fits an agenda.

[Jingle]

As a sidenote, I'm going to openly say it's not a good idea to judge anyone in this game for what their teammates are or aren't saying. It's a common tactic for experienced mafia in Team Mafia to muddy the waters of their reads and once again, evade accountability.

wogurtz, DK want's to hear more about your peta read, if you can.

Also, I'd never weaponize hydra dissonance. How dare you.

[Jingle]

I will attempt to do so, but cannot make promises. It's a subconscious process at this point.

[Jingle]

I still scumread them. I'm aware peta offered a back down to let the thread develop more and I tend to agree that making this the peta and Jingle show would be bad for the game, but as of right now I'm definitely planning on going back there when I'm done poking other beehives.

I don't need a vote to poke people when I have my trusty gas powered stick.

[Jingle]

Cerb has not been asking me good questions and these are the kind of questions that don't help on scum hunting. It looked like busywork to me. I would prefer players ask me question with a single quote and not a wallpost because I don't know how to edit the huge wall.

If you're on desktop you can highlight a section and quote that section with the little tooltip, but mobile you just have to delete out the shit you don't want to quote.

[Jingle]

I believe wgeurts says this a bit later on, but I AM a very methodical player, quite conniving as any alignment, and certainly competent as scum(historically, who knows what the fuck I am now). An expression of paranoia without any action behind it seems...in character to me, given their history with me. I would expect also generic paranoia of me to be expressed by(limiting this to people who are involved in Team Mafia) Alisae, Firebringer, Frozen Angel, Mastina, and Titus, so I guess I feel like this is a me thing more than a scumtell/stretch on the part of people who have played with me many times.

Did I miss wgeurts pressing adorable, and if I did, what about it appears bad to you? With regards to peta's push, do you feel that peta's push was weak enough that wgeurts jumping in was an easy way to score brownie points with you? Or is there some other eye brow raising point?

Mostly 42 and the leads rist, but wgeurtz is poking them in a way that I think fairly obviously won't encourage actually indicative interaction. Specifically for 42,

Thoughts on the interactions between me, Jingle, Cerb and Peta? Fine to have null reads, but you're going to need to elaborate why you have null reads.

The first bit would be fine on it's own and even slightly towny, (calling attention to specific people to ask for them to talk about them is a great way to get info out) but the latter half is aggressive and feels like wgeurtz has already made a judgment before looking at what content gets produced. Arguing that someone needs to have reasons for not having thoughts isn't going to suddenly make them have reasons for not having thoughts, but it is a decent setup for a push later on. Given the context of Adorable coming in with her LHF selflabel, the aggressiveness of the push is :eyebrows:.

[Jingle]

Jingle, did we ever actually play in any games together in the past? I know your name, but your last two listed strong points are basically my own and therefore I feel like I should know you better than I do.

I don't think you've played games with this account, but we've definitely played together and meshed well while I was on Bingle. I think I've also modded games you've been in and I've definitely reviewed and spectated games you've been in (I've modded more games than I've played and reviewed more games than is reasonable) although mostly on RR. The only individual reaction I can recall is the first game we played together where I accused you of being someone from my first on site game and it turned out it was just a similar username.

[Jingle]

peta's push was weak enough that wgeurts jumping in was an easy way to score brownie points with you? Or is there some other eye brow raising point?

I think peta's push was fairly obviously not going to lead anywhere at that point, but I don't think wgeurtz was actually trying to buddy me with the defense. I think it was more a posting for the sake of being seen doing something thing than any actual specific motivation. If wgeurts townread me and thought I was in danger defending me would make sense, but I don't think anyone would think I needed to be defended there. If wgeurtz was trying to read peta, I think letting peta push me and seeing their angle would be more useful in the long run. As it is, it's just fluff. It's a "I'm doing something!" post, but there's no real gain behind it which makes it easy for scum to fake.

Not a strong read by any metric, but I'm definitely giving wgeurts attention because of it.

[Jingle]

did I?

You did.

[Jingle]

Hmm what post? I'll go look for it myself after this post probably, but in case I don't have something up before you get to this thread, please assist! I'm pretty sure you're talking about your sentiment that wgeurts' posting with regards to me was intended to make me look bad more so than anything else?

You already addressed it in your first wall.

[Jingle]

I feel a bit better about Adorable, HPE, and Cerbs. Rat still fine. I have a scumread on Fate, but Mena and DK agree that I might be insane. We'll see how this plays out.

Still feel scum overall on wgeurts and peta, but those should both cook without much effort.

Porkens, who are you most interested in sorting aorn?

[Jingle]

Where did you get this info from?

wgeurtz linked TM2021. Honestly I wish I could find my notes from that game (I was feeding Ari thoughts constantly).

[Jingle]

Was it GiF who suggested you take the double vote?

[Jingle]

A mechanical thought occurs. It is possible that there is a role or roles that benefit from having powerups. It is possible that Adorable has one of these roles. I don't want Adorable to say whether this is the case. I'm mentioning this because at this point I don't particularly mind if scum kill adorable on the back of this speculation and I've decided I actually want the powerup awarded in case this is the case.

VOTE: Powerup: Adorable

[Jingle]

That's a loaded question. I am relatively strongly townreading adorable, but also I would probably be pro giving her the power even if I weren't.

Locking anything majorly significant behind a public use vote is kind of poor game design, and not something I'd expect from Cakez. Like... if scum needs a strongman or scumvig to be competitive and that's locked behind calling extra attention to themselves, that's a bad decision I think Cakez is better than making. If its moderate power, like a roleblock, then it sucks but it's not the end of the world if it turns on. If it's moderate townpower, like a tracker or a doctor we might lose adorable because I'm pointing scum at adorable by outing this, but I think it likely scum will just assume that it's not worth worrying over but also we wouldn't get the power anyway if I didn't make that post. If it's no power at all, scum might be swayed into shooting Adorable over someone who is more immediately threatening to them.

[p]253[/p] implies that there is a mechanical reason for wanting the power, and while GiF is a troll who might have told Adorable to go for the powerup because he knew/expected it was a waste of town's time, he's also a good enough mod that if there was a reason to want it he would definitely coach Adorable into trying for it at that point. And leaving which of those is actually the case openended is pretty obviously the right way to approach this as town.

[Jingle]

I'm more concerned with the application of the tell this early. It was explicitly beetlejuicing, but beetlejuicing is really only a scumtell if it's a pattern of behavior.

[Jingle]

I apologize if [p]257[/p] is hard to read, my sentences got away from me a bit. I can definitely take another crack at explaining that if someone needs me to.

[Jingle]

THEY GOT RID OF SHORTHAND POST TAGS? YOU MONSTERS!

[Jingle]

Basically you value the opportunity to keep scum guessing?

Kind of? I'm presenting multiple different choices to scum that will all have a visible impact on the game state. Based on what happens (Adorable is NK'd/elim'd and flips VT, Adorable is NK'd/elim'd and flips not VT, Adorable lives and claims a result, Adorable lives and doesn't claim a result, Adorable lives and claims that there was no real mechanical reason for the powerup grab) we have more to go on as to what scum thinks is going on, and if we can figure out what scum thinks is going on we can work from there to figure out what their plan is. If we know the scum plan, we can more accurately scumhunt. It's all about tailoring the game to a place where we CAN solve the game instead of just trying to solve the game from the opening of the thread.

[Jingle]

Eh, I think if it were something actually important Adorable would have been pushing back harder against us abandoning the power up.

I mean... first of all not necessarily. They could be worried about the NK/elim and hoping that the next powerup is something they might be able to get, which I think makes sense with the self perception of being limbait regardless of her alignment. Second of all, this plays into the whole "The type of role that would be locked behind a public vote is likely less powerful than something else due to the swing the lock introduces." bit I brought up.

[Jingle]

Okay what the hell is beetlejuicing

Showing up to the thread immediately after being talked about, specifically immediately after being called scum. It's named after the movie Beetlejuice.

Also, as I said, it's not reliably scum indicative on it's own, but is worth noting, particularly in conjunction with things like active lurking and fluffposting.

[Jingle]

This one has been keeping a fairly close eye on the thread today so far aside from going outside a couple times, so its not exactly beetlejuicing it feels?

This is actually why it was originally considered a scumtell, the popular thought being that someone who is watching the thread but not contributing is more likely to be scum because they're, you know, not contributing. As a standalone tell it tends to be completely worthless because plenty of people read the thread constantly without replying as town, and plenty of people reply to every little thing as scum.

It's worth noting, because if ALL someone is doing is replying to the thread when they're brought up, it likely means they're not interested in solving the game and instead more interested in managing how people see them.

This has been Theory Time with Jingle, the part of the game where Jingle comes out and sings a silly song.

[Jingle]

Could folks give me their opinions on Fate and Porkens?

Koba townreads porkens and I'm vaguely sheeping that for now because I don't have a read of my own. I think Koba's Porkens read is a meta thing, but honestly we didn't spend much time on it before we moved on to other topics. Apparently it's a fairly confident read, which is good enough for D1 for me.

I have a scumread on Fate, but both Koba and Mena tell me my reasoning is weird. I'll make it public when fate has come around and done more.

[Jingle]

HighPrincessErinys (4) - Petapan, Cat Scratch Fever, wgeurts, Fate

cerbs

I think HPE's reaction to being at L-2 over basically nothing with at least cerbs waiting in the wings pseudo willing to vote is incredibly town, actually. Like, it doesn't seem focused on being in a precarious position and is still just looking to make content. The questions make sense and are mostly probing, the thought processes all check out. I'd wager that there's at least one scum on this wagon, potentially both. Koba wants me to poke Fate for the reason behind pushing here to see if it's just a miscommunication, but honestly a page two scumread on a person with a strange playstyle and then noping out of the thread doesn't feel 'miscommunication-y' to me.

[Jingle]

I noticed there is a vote on Fate and I'll join.

VOTE: Fate

I'd join if that wouldn't mean unvoting peta, fwiw.

[Jingle]

VLA two days.

Might be back sooner.

[Jingle]

Not caught up in the slightest, but Koba pinged me with a reads wall and a concern that Fate was going to get mislimmed here. I will be very cross if an elimination happens while I'm away, particularly because I feel like I was a reasonably likely target for a nk when I left.

I should be back no later than tomorrow night, you can hold onto your bloodlust until then, whoever Koba is concerned about.

[Jingle]

What are their reads?

List wise almost exactly 24 hours ago it was:

Rat {polarized slot showing off towny bits, genuine curiosity, team engagement}
HPE {proactive, lots of references when discussing reads, evidence behind thoughts, natural progression}

CSF {passion, vibe read, mindmeld}
Cerb {initial bad vibes but good since, solvey, fluid, willing to be shown he's wrong}
Adorbs {No idea how to read but logic is solid behind what's been shared, overall towny vibes} (I'm not entirely sure what this means, but I think Koba thinks that Adorable's perspective is a reasonable one to exist, not that Koba thinks Adorable is explicitly right given the context)

Fate {kinda cringey at points, but just generically abrasive towny who don't give no fucks.} Koba thinks HPE is conflating bad push with scum here and thinks Fate should ISO. Contextually I think that means Fate should ISO HPE? I can check if you want clarification
Porkens {engaged and towny energy, pass for D1}

Peta {BoP about scummy, calls him flaccid , nothing to townread in his posts. Overall low substance and small scope given the team and the small size of the game.}
Wgeurts {fell off in activity from not a great start. Buncha Nothingburger}

Apparently Koba also thinks that Peta/Wgeurts makes a decent pairing based on interactions, particularly in how peta treats wgeurts.

Not caught up my list is

HPE
Adorbs
Rat

CSF
Cerb
Porkens

Fate

Wgeurts
Peta

I'm only really townreading the top three on my list. Meanwhile I'm actively scumreading the bottom two and leaning scum on Fate. I'm back, btw.

[Jingle]

I can go witht hat and have it suit my style

I humbly offer the demolition man choice of murder-death-kill. Alternatively, refloga.

[Jingle]

Also interested in why they think fate is a mislim

Well, I just posted the reason Koba's townreading Fate (although it's not strong) but we obviously weren't worried about a scum elimination happening while I'm out, now were we? If you eliminated scum Fate and I came back to that I wouldn't have had any issues at all with it.

[Jingle]

but this is what my life will be over the next 5 days

I get that you enjoy this, but genuinely that sounds like hell.

[Jingle]

They're emotional and reactive. Lots of stream of consciousness type stuff. Their posts are not being deliberated upon, or at least don't look it

FWIW, I don't think this is actually a good reason to townread Fate. I think Fate is the kind of player who is going to say "Let's kill a fucker" and just expect everyone to fall in line and do so, regardless of alignment. I would genuinely be shocked if he wasn't a giant ego from what I've heard. I also don't think Fate has done anything to warrant a scum read, with the sole exception of the thing I still haven't gotten an answer on. Speaking of:

@Fate:

Can you expand on where you've seen my name come up? I've definitely heard a lot of Fate stories (I believe you may be the founder of the Screaming Death Clan?) but it's interesting to me that you seem at least slightly familiar with me coming into this game where as far as I know you, uh, shouldn't be.

[Jingle]

yeah Jingle's 'lld can't read me' felt genuine for once so Imma leave it be (don't have any context for y'alls history but it does remind me of MY MOST RECENT GAME WHERE KATSUKI MISLYNCHED ME FOR NO GODDAMN GOOD REASON)

Not extensive. We get along pretty well and I don't begrudge her inability to read me, it's just a thing that's true. Generally, the better someone is at reading most players the worse they are at reading me. This is also kind of out of date, since our only game since I came out of retirement was a mutual scumgame. Consequently, also my only game since coming out of retirement, but :shrugs:.

tl;dr, that was a joke, not an actual indictment or specific callout.

[Jingle]

Then again I'd be complaining if this game were already long as hell with pages and pages each time I was away so maybe the grass is always greener eh

Mood.

[Jingle]

your name rings a bell

Pun accepted, evasion noted.

My main reservation wrt Fate is thus: The townread on me in 182 feels like it'd be more reasonable from someone who has heard about me. It pretty well looked like an attempt to establish communication early, piggybacking off of my cred with the kids these days or otherwise, to work together. That sounds town on the face of things, right? You want to work with people you know you work well with, right?

Well here's the rub: As far as I know I've never met Fate, even tangentially in someplace like sitechat. Further, to the best of my knowledge, the same applies to every member of Fate's team. So if Fate was informed of my existence prior to the game, it was likely by someone who was on another team. Someone Fate would have to have talked to outside of this thread. Which is weird, because outside of LLD/Shea/mastina I can't think of anyone who I would think even might have mentioned me to Fate casually outside of the context of team mafia.

Now, this is the original point at which Mena said he thought I was wrong. But Koba was interested and kept asking questions, thinking maybe Fate was looking to set up a buddy situation and pocket me.

But here's the thing: anyone actually familiar with me probably knows I'm disproportionately likely to scumread townreads on me, so it would be super weird for a scum mate of Fate's to suggest Fate come into the thread and try to pocket me. Which is where Koba said I was probably barking up the wrong tree. Fate's behavior since then, though (not really engaging with me, despite looking like he wanted to from the word go), makes me think I might have something here. Because I could definitely see a scumpartner saying to Fate: "Hey, Jingle is a pretty decent player." and Fate going "Okay, I'll pocket Jingle." and the scumpartner then going "No, fuck, don't do that he tunnels that."

Or I'm crazy and I found this neat hat:



ymmv.

[Jingle]

Which, skimming over the team list could only be petapan.

Teams that would probably have someone who knows I OMGUS townreads, in order:

Hyper Aggressive Jingle Ballers
Frog Friends
Shadow Syndicate
Perfectly Balanced Alisae with an exploit in that FB is trivially manipulable
Average TM Enjoyers
Klicken Chickens
Studies
Cripsy Puffs

... Uh, I just realized DGB is on Fate's team. I don't know how I missed that, but DGB and I have actually played together a reasonable amount.

[Jingle]

Is that wall of text really because of the simple ingredients of my townread on you+saying I have a soft spot?

Wow

Impressive paranoia actually

Hi, I'm Jingle. My team probably hates me because I'm probably the top poster in every game's topic despite having been away from the computer for two days in a team with noted spambot DKKoba.

Legitimately, pretty sure we have the largest discord by a fairly decent margin.

[Jingle]

first: I just noticed your title is ring a bell so my pun has gone down significantly in value and i feel bad.

If it helps, my title is supposed to change to "For whom the Bell trolls" after mastina figures out the issue with titling.

And no, I didn't post that to try to get you limmed or to try to get peta limmed off of an association with you, but rather because it's a thing I was thinking about and which might mean other people's takes on it would be interesting and I didn't see any possible world in which posting it would hurt town. If I legitimately thought that peta should be limmed on account of LLD is one of the very few people who might have mentioned me to you OUTSIDE of team mafia then... Fuck, I don't think there's even a world where that's possible.

Also, if you tell me that my name has a secret meaning to you because of Limmy's show I'll probably be pocketed for the rest of the game.

[Jingle]

My thinking was more peta's probably scum regardless of affiliation with you

Me too!

[Jingle]

Actually, it's probably worth mentioning:

Mechanics and flavor wise I think it's more likely than rand, though not particularly likely, that there exists a mason pair and am thus going to be looking far less at associations on D1 than I would otherwise. Which is already something I don't give a lot of weight to on D1. Or maybe I'm trying to get Fate shot. Who knows, could go either way with this crowd.

[Jingle]

I got where you were coming from, my beef is with Jingle spending all this time looking at every team and it's members etc

Unpack this for me?

Also, what's your read on peta?

[Jingle]

also whats not clear about what i said

do I need to find the image...



was goin a lot like that

Hey, pictures of scummers are supposed to go in FWAN.

Also, ego posting is so named because the function 'Your Posts' represents is known as an Ego Search. Just a CS jargon thing.

[Jingle]

more like tis been simmering since peta's been not active and it would be VERY INTERESTING to see wgeurts flip, cuz if theyre scum Ill take peta as conftown

Why? I've thought they were a pretty strong pairing option since basically the beginning of the game.

[Jingle]

Nevermind I need whatever your whole team is taking.

I'll trade you sleep deprivation and excedrin migraine for the szechuan beef in a heartbeat, but you get to pay shipping.

[Jingle]

Votecount 1.5

wgeurts (3) - Porkens, HighPrincessErinys
Fate (2) - Adorable, Cat Scratch Fever
HighPrincessErinys (1) - wgeurts, Fate,
Petapan (1) - Jingle, Radical Rat
Cat Scratch Fever (1) -

Not voting (2) - Cerberus v666, petapan

(expired on 2023-04-26 11:46:00) remain until day end

Jingle is V/LA through Thursday April 20.

With 10 players alive, it takes 6 to reach a majority.

Updated VC. The sudden peta scumread would be rr, afaict.

[Jingle]

dunn also thought one of your posts was scummy (19). he actually said this before i voted you but i wasn't reading the chat

the expressed reasoning was that it feels like he knows the answer but wants to appear solvey

This sequence felt like so much bullshit. Dunn knows me decently and would further know that my mechshit is NAI, and literally rephrasing someone else's question to preempt a second question being potentially necessary doesn't even surface level "appear solvey". It appears like complete nothingburger.

jingle do you often make reads lists on page 4 of games

Mostly a sign that I'm bored with the pace of the game. I can't say I've played enough mafia since coming out of retirement to say I often do anything, and preretirement pinning down my meta based on specific actions was an exercise in futility.

it's, like, hum

it struck me as possibly trying too hard too soon/stretching to make conclusions where most of the content so far was thin - although i have slight vibes etc i haven't felt like committing things to written words yet

but i think being bored is at least plausible i guess - i certainly want more but i'm usually at least content to let games run at their own pace

I don't really think this was intended to go somewhere. Like... What did peta expect here? Where is the scum motivation in 'committing to written words' when there's not a lot to go on?

Because we think wogurts has a strong potential to be scum aorn. Ask a silly question...

ok, why?

I think Cerb's posts have been lengthy and wordy but don't have much meat to them & feel vaguely pocket-y of wgeurts

how much meat would you expect based on when in the game they were posted?

There's something delicious about questioning someone for having a read without meat that is that the person doesn't have much meat to their read, especially in the context of peta having just questioned why I posted a readslist that was too soon to have much meat behind it.

I’m asking more philosophically, not directly at you. Do people in general ever have reliable reads on page 5? Haven’t even read the game btw

But I was asking you

i thought you were asking jingle tbh - i'm certainly not displaying a strong level of commitment to any read i make esp. since i've unvoted him but that's why i'm going through the process of talking to people


sometimes i get good hunches early, i caught titus on page 6 of datisi's cafe, but that's usually dependent on a degree of meta. but i'm fully aware not every early read is going to be a banger and am tempering my approach to be cautious here

this is especially true in team mafia because having 3 other people shouting in your ear very often creates an echo chamber effect that can lead you to confirmation bias your reads, and that can lead to people mutually tunneling each other and consuming the thread in a destructive fashion. i am trying to avoid this

Peta's team is shouting in peta's ear.

I had some towny feelings on Jingle and petapan earlier but am going to be more wary of those slots

this is the correct way to play around both of us

Subtle shade on my slot. "Don't trust Jingle, he's good at scum like I am." It's also the kind of nothingburger post that tries to show how reasonable and towny peta is. "No, your paranoia of me is fine." Like... Why does town feel the need to post this, compared to just going "Okay, CSF paranoia-ing on me, probably town indicative." And peta doesn't even say that it's town for CSF. It's just... empty.

cerb mostly comes across as null in everything he's posted so far. but maybe scummy given the lack of solid stances in all that posts. (i have an instinctive bias against quote stripes that has little basis in reality though)

Like all of the solid stances that peta has given. Cerbs should give some of those.

UNVOTE:

meh

if

HPE is town cerb's approach to it strikes me as being potentially scummy


i like CSF's posts and think this is probably her town game

LLD has been badgering me to get her reads into the thread, i think she's been wanting to micromanage everyone while waiting for hers to start lol

she thinks CSF, Adorable, and wgeurts are town, I agree with these as i've more or less expressed

she thought hpe was town at first but didn't like its fate vote

Really, this is the only content peta's offered, and I think in this particular game the whole lotta nothing coming from peta IS a scumtell.

[Jingle]

Koba wants me to share that wgeurts looks like flailing scum who doesn't have a place to pivot now that HPE doesn't look nearly as mislimmable as before.

[Jingle]

Still pending an ISO analysis on peta of my own due to other things but this one thinks it's seeing where you're coming from, but it'll withhold an actual scumread for that ISO dive.

I quoted about half of his ISO. The worst bits, in all fairness, but yeah...

[Jingle]

We played in the generational family game off the top of my head. And how in the love of god did you think wgeurts’ wall was anything but garbage?

[Jingle]

Mobile atm, but I do plan on it. But do you legitimately think anyone looks at that original wall and goes “this is compelling”?

[Jingle]

That doesn’t at all look like a response to “do you think peta reads your original wall and comes back with” this is compelling.

[Jingle]

I've found myself agreeing with Peta before multiple times and I believe have had the same progression for said thoughts yes I do believe it.

What posts of peta’s do you agree with?

[Jingle]

Assertion:

They started the game nothing posting. All their posts appeared useful but gave no insight to what their reads could be, or anything that they later could be held accountable for.

Evidence provided:

Spoiler: Literally disagreeing on an explicitly stated read on page 2 and 3

This isn't too sure it uh... sees how that's scummy?

the expressed reasoning was that it feels like he knows the answer but wants to appear solvey

Ehhh... This one doesn't really get that impression in the first place, but also scum probably weren't told about the power-up beforehand (there really isn't a need to when it gets announced to everyone at the start of the day) and even if they were they'd probably get the same description of it's effect.

It just seems like reading into things a bit too much?

"Nothing burger posts" on pages 1-5.

Uh huh. And to borrow a question from peta:

how much meat would you expect based on when in the game they were posted?

Fucking trash logic.

They only started giving reads under pressure, and have only ever given reads on people who are hot topic.

They only started giving reads under pressure, on page 6. This is technically correct, but it's also the kind of 'Gotcha!' read that has shit for accuracy. You know what's really fucking easy to do? Fake reads.

Their reads do not make coherent sense. Their read on me is based of me misconstruing them: yet they acknowledge my clarifications made me look more town in the past, and have failed to point out where I'm misrepresenting them further and how it is scum motivated. They also claim that it looks like I'm pursuing them as low-hanging fruit, which would imply that they acknowledge their slot looks scummy and like an easy elimination option, which would mean my case makes sense... when their entire case against me is that it doesn't. They just don't like me because I'm pushing them imo.

Their read on you is based on you misconstruing it, which you've literally done, multiple times. Like for example, when you conflated thinking it strange that I don't put any particular faith in my reads throughout the game with not having reads on page 6. When you said that it poking at odd interactions to ask for clarification was nothing of substance. When you just now thought that a post that was very clearly a response to me was it flipping its read on peta, because you didn't understand the way it uses pronouns. When you argued that it reconsidering a read in response to a posted case was inherently scummy because there was no progression when the progression of the person who was being discussed thread dipped and then it reread their entire ISO. And yeah, it's possible to scumread someone for bullshit reasons for suspecting LHF. That's fucking obvious.

Your argument here is that HPE is scum because its wrong on you. And even if it is wrong, wrong isn't scummy. Wrong is wrong. If we limmed everyone who was wrong, town would win literally 0 games, because the people who are never wrong are the scumteam.

They're obsessed with who's voting them and whether or not they can wagons going whilst not being interested in pushing their own named scum-reads: see porkens.

Yes, HPE is the only passive player this game. And also, HPE isn't pushing it's scumreads, when the previous point that you had boiled down to HPE is pushing a scumread on you that's wrong. This is literally contradicting your own case.

They floated porkens as a low-hanging scum read when pushed for any substance, then doubled down with absolute moonlogic dissonant with their scum read on me, conveniently after Jingle floated it as an option. Instead they go after Fate for things Porkens has also done, and also keep me as an option to vote despite having called me "more towny" prior. They abandon Fate as soon as a wagon does finally form as per the earlier stated objective, it doesn't add up.

Conveniently after Jingle's page 4 readlist which predated... Basically everything? Including literally all of its reads? Conveniently, I didn't realize I was town until I got my role PM, that's probably suspicious too. Wot? And your argument here about a lack of consistence isn't really concerning to me as a scumread either. Like... You know who is actually really concerned with the optics of their progression? Scum and manipulative town. I think we can all agree that HPE doesn't seem like a particularly mastermind-y town player.

Their reads are all watered down and easy to correct as per the status quo, people that aren't part of the discourse, don't matter to them.

Its reads, as you present them, are Peta was townish, but on a reread is scummy. Fate is scummy, but poking there isn't actually doing anything. Porkens has done fuck all. You seem to be actively misunderstanding its posts. It hasn't expressed strong reads on CSF, cerbs, RR, Adorable. Do you legitimately expect everyone in the game to have nuanced reads on everyone in the game? Have you attempted to discuss the behaviors of any of those people with HPE? I agree that HPE doesn't have very developed reads, but I also don't see much attempt from anyone to talk about those reads. Fuck, what's your most recent take on Adorable? Why is she town, or has that changed since page 18?

Their 180 on Peta is absolutely filthy, and in the posts leading up to it you can quite evidently see behaviour that can be interpreted as positioning to back off their prior number 1 town read.

Why is it filthy? Like, legitimately. I posted a case on peta, HPE read a case on a stale townread, decided it made sense, claimed to follow up on it by checking the ISO, and then voted. What part of that is implausable?

They constantly use others reads to form their own, with little to no evidence that anything they're coming up with is original and not opportunistically staged.

:twitching eyebrows:

Legitimately, wgeurts, if you're town here look at this objectively. What about this is actually compelling?

[Jingle]

From my pov I can't really think of anyone who would be HPE scum partner.

Jingle, Cerb, maybe even Porkens if Porkens is really really unmotivated to play but that's an unlikely stretch.

Like my money is on you and Jingle being both town right now, but if HPE flips red it isn't Jingle imo, and if they flip green I will have to revaluate the entire game

Fucking wot?

HPE is scum for an inconsistent narrative, and also Jingle both is not and is a viable HPE partner. Chef's kiss.

[Jingle]

ftr porkens is trending strongly toward what i would expect of him as scum - being lazy, shitposting, making excuses rather than delivering content

I vaguely remember this just being Porkens. Do you have any evidence that town porkens is different? (legitimate question, not trying to cast shade)

[Jingle]

That wall wasn't about "Why is HPE town" it was about "Why was wgeurts' case garbage." So what, exactly, is super compelling and slam dunk about wgeurts' scumcase on HPE that lead to:

i like the wall

Why as town are you even focused on whether or not people are "altogether interested" in a wagon or not anyway?

this bit in particular resonates with me because i think scum often get caught using this type of reasoning about what is/isn't a viable wagon

And it's not like you don't know the motivation behind why I posted that, because both you and wgeurts literally asked why the case wasn't compelling.

[Jingle]

I actually kind of agree with your evaluation of Porkens. In both games he transferred out of unreadable to moderately unreadable and I've seen little evidence that's going to occur here. Also, I truly regret reading the ChatGPT roleplay as it was a waste of my time, but that's my own damn fault for not trusting the disclaimer.

[Jingle]

hpe looks pretty opportunistic with its votes

I don't disagree that the optics there look bad, I disagree that the optics looking bad are indicative that HPE is scum. HPE looks like its floundering without any fucking clue what to do, and that isn't a thing I expect to see from scum in most cases. That's something I expect to see from awkward people. And whatever else it is, HPE certainly gives off the awkward vibe.

[Jingle]

Also completely and wholly unrelated but please use it/its and don't default to they.

If this is at me then I apologize. I typed up that whole wall defaulting to they and edited it because I often default to they nowadays and I legitimately thought I'd gotten all of them. Not an excuse if I failed, but I do appreciate that you prefer to be addressed as it/its and didn't mean to cause any offense. Please let me know if you see me do this again, as it's definitely a behavior that I need to know if I need to pay more attention to.

[Jingle]

(i am biased of course because the person having the read walked back on is me)

I happen to have the exact opposite bias of thinking all of the things I said are scum indicative of you are, in fact, scum indicative of you. I'm open to being wrong though, and am more than happy to discuss reads. It's the happy upside to being very much so not confident about my reads. I can admit that I might be wrong and engage people in good faith even when screaming that they need to die.

Who do you think makes sense as an HPE partner, since you seem to think it wouldn't be me?

[Jingle]

Oh, and someone mentioned that DK's reads were very buzzwordy. Yeah, that's kinda just the easiest way to paraphrase a wall. Find buzzwords that roughly fit what I think they're saying and if clarification becomes necessary I can put in more effort.

[Jingle]

i am not pushing hpe as scum currently

Sure, because you think I'm scum and I don't make sense as an HPE partner. I'm still interested in getting the answer because from my POV if I flip green there's nothing stopping you from turning around and pushing HPE again.

[Jingle]

I'm looking for a reason to think you're town. Basically:

It's all about tailoring the game to a place where we CAN solve the game instead of just trying to solve the game from the opening of the thread.

[Jingle]

i'd rather talk to you about your worldview, find common ground in perspective, and hopefully eliminate scum based on building a good towncore

Like discussing the gamestate reasons that HPE makes more sense as town than scum?

Tell me more about your CSF read. I vaguely like them tonally but I can't remember anything from them I think was exceptionally town.

[Jingle]

i am willing to accept "no viable partners" reads but usually not on day 1

Call me conceited but I don't expect that I have the luxury of waiting til endgame.

[Jingle]

The opposite in fact. It's not really about whether you'll go after HPE when I'm dead. It's about who you think is viable and how they react to that read and how you react to them reacting to that read and recursive bullshit down the line. If we had infinite time and infinite motivation, I fully believe town could solve every game D1.

I'm just trying to get as much information as I can right now.

FWIW, I think this back and forth right here is exactly as productive as you actually having given in and given exactly what I asked for though.

[Jingle]

Y’all need to stop name dropping me

Porkens

[Jingle]

JUST FOR YOU ADORABLE!!!

I'm currently null on everyone at the moment.

If no one wants the double vote power up then I'll be willing to take it.

Why are you even saying these things? I don't see an objective to either post?

We should still probably give it to someone, right?

Why?

It doesn't do anything and just bloats the thread to do so.

What does that mean by bloats the thread?

I don't want to hate on someone for asking questions, but what is your objective here? I assume you know what bloating the thread means, and also understand why talking about this would do so. Which means you have some other objective to asking the question, so what is it?

My objective was to let players know that I didn't have any reads and it's better to share what I have been feeling instead of keeping it to myself. A teammate of mine said I should get the double vote power which is why I said in the thread I would be willing to take it. I didn't know on what bloating the thread means which is why I asked.

Interesting. This post is approximately 55% scum, 45% town. I think it's *slighly* more scum than town to want to get your thoughts out in the game ahead of people questioning you about them, and it's *definitely* more scum than town to defer responsibility for doing something that the game has decided is scummy. Interesting that you did not know what was meant by bloating the thread, but understood, makes sense in that case.

This is the last post Koba specifically called out as bad from cerbs (waffley weak uses a lot of words to say not a lot of substance).

I don’t know if there are specific posts since then they liked, but I did let Koba know that “a lot of words” is a NAI thing for cerbs afaicr so it might have been a reread thing. I’ll get back to you when they see this.

[Jingle]

hey, this really made me angry, so if you could not talk to me this way ever that would be great

What about it made you angry?

[Jingle]

There's been like three cases in the last day. Thoughts on any of them, Fate?

[Jingle]

ngl, there's a big part of me that just wants to lim wgeurts because if they flip red this game goes easy mode real fast.

[Jingle]

Them liking RR for town very early on, I loved their switch to HBE as it was literally what I was considering just as their vote came up during my first reread, their added information on adorable, 299 on Cerb which is currently my standing too. The only thing I properly disagreed with was their early issues with you

Could you give post numbers at least for these? I legitimately can't find peta liking radrat unless you're talking the one line in a read wall in 539, which...

The switch from me to HPE felt like an olive branch when I turned out to be a giant fucking pain to eliminate and an attempt to avoid a 1v1, which certainly could be town but isn't particularly strong, and voting someone for being awkward certainly doesn't strike me as a strong reason to townread anyone.

Confirming a metatell on adorable is pretty meh as a reason for a townread as well, especially given it's a TM meta read and thus basically everyone should have someone who could share that info with them, but I guess I can see why you'd call that towny.

cerb in 299 is an okay take, but not all that groundbreaking or out there.

[Jingle]

i took a single day off from the game because i was feeling sick and to have it implied i was trying to lurk out and only started posting due to getting voted by you is really insulting

In fairness, regardless of reasoning you did drop off a bit. I accept the reasoning and most certainly no longer have reservations with the amount of contribution you're giving (It's better than most of the thread) but your reaction is surprisingly strong here.

Do you think Rat is trying to paint a narrative or do you think rat is town who is just being generally uncharitable?

[Jingle]

people fluffing with their friends

Is there anyone 'fluffing with their friends' in lieu of giving content fypov? Afaict, the big offenders for not giving content are kind of just not doing anything at all.

oh, and UNVOTE:

Not sure I endorse a peta lim atm.

[Jingle]

Agree that post was kinda weak but the feeling didn't improve after this even though he was mostly talking at me

Yeah, I completely get where you're coming from. cerbs has just kinda been around fmpov, which isn't particularly surprising. There are bits I've liked, and bits I haven't, but nothing to really push my read far in either direction. tbh, I haven't put a lot of time or effort into solving him today. Koba still hasn't seen the discord message about wanting to know what was liked, but I'll let you know when that changes.

I am vaguely interested in the fact that this wagon only showed up while cerbs was V/LA and I think that says you and Adorable probably aren't cerb partners. Scum don't tend to bus their buddy when they can't defend themselves if they'll presumably be better able to defend themselves later. It also makes me feel a bit better about both of you that you don't give a shit about the optics of voting someone right after they dip like that too in a general sense.

[Jingle]

Waiting to hear back from Koba, but maybe.

[Jingle]

VOTE: cerbs

Afaict, me telling Koba to temper their expectations for hard stances lead to an over correction. Im fine with this while the rest of the stew cooks.

[Jingle]

Yeah these Cerbs votes are fine imo but the timing is just a little... opportunistic, kinda??

I actually see this as fairly clearing for adorable and CSF, because scum would absolutely not want to look that opportunistic.

Obviously, that same logic doesn't apply to me, or anyone voting there now, but those two are pretty much locktown for me atp.

[Jingle]

Apologies if I missed it, but did you ever explain your townread on wgeurts, CSF?

[Jingle]

I found the argument that they demonstrated a lot of heart in their push on HPE and therefore genuinely believe in their scumread to be fairly compelling

I can kind of see this, but the self acknowledgment of how poorly made the original case was to the point of reworking it unprompted and the immediate handwaving of peta being convinced by it making sense still strikes me as dissonant. I feel like this is the kind of case that's really easy to write off as wrong town, but I have reservations. Is there anything else you've seen that implies town?

[Jingle]

I get your point, but I can't shake the feeling that there's something off with the whole peta/wgeurts interactions. Maybe it's Koba reinforcing me chasing butterflies, but I think there's something worth digging at in that mess.

Regardless, for the moment I'm willing to wait until wgeurts gets back. I expect spicy takes with what all's happened recently.

[Jingle]

What did y'all think of my porkens case?

It requires more time than I want to spend to parse rn.

[Jingle]

Had a rough day today and a hell shift on friday, expect more from me tomorrow. I haven't read yet

Just so long as you don’t go to Coachella tomorrow

[Jingle]

So... I get that we're the relaxed game and all, but this is pretty bad. Cerbs is an outlier because of significant V/LA, but we're gonna need higher levels of engagement than this if we hope for a town win. wgeurts has been absent multiple days because of work and RL troubles and is still the second from top poster by a wide margin. And it's not like there's a lack of content to engage with. There have been multiple cases and multiple wagons recently.

I'm not saying this as a "Everybody get in here and post right now." but D2 on we absolutely cannot allow this same trend to continue.

[Jingle]

Me probing others doesn't really solve the issue if it folds when I'm not here to probe others. My issue is that too many people seem content to just sit back and let a couple of active players drive all the discussion, and fmpov if I die I have no faith that this game won't devolve into 7 IRL days with 14 posts.

[Jingle]

Could you share teammates notes cerb?

[Jingle]

It's mostly because of the early wgeurts defense still. Since then you've looked plausibly town, but so far that's the only moment in this game I can point to as someone actively doing something scummy, whereas everyone else in my lim pool just hasn't been doing Townie things.

As for my team, honestly we haven't been discussing as thoroughly or frequently as we probably should be, but early on Klick said you were pinging him as well, and then Bella's recently said you look Town to her.

Did you catch my thoughts wrt CSF's push on cerb being probtown?

[Jingle]

@cerbs, could you skim 484 through my response in 537? I know it's a bit of reading, but even impressions on a quick read would be nice.

[Jingle]

I really should get around to checking if that sample is representative, but I'm being lazy atm.

[Jingle]

I mean... that the wall exists is probably as deep as you have to go into the wall. There's a summary of conclusions not long after.

[Jingle]

Spoiler:

This one believes it has an understanding of how Porkens and Fate play now, and that's "silly". Neither seems to be a very high-content poster or much of ones to elaborate on why they do the things they do, but this one was still figuring that out. Fate was ESPECIALLY doing nothing, so it threw a vote onto them that went nowhere of use as they didn't really stir from it. It went back to you as it realized that Fate and Porkens just Play Like That and that trying to strongly scumread them for it is just... eh. Which is why this one asks: Do you often try to elim people based on their playstyle? Because your choices of vote on me/Porkens/Fate really gives the impression you do, unless you don't? Because if you don't then it's low-hanging fruit to try and get the low-contents who are always low-content.

fate is very much doing things and imo it's uncharitable to describe him as not - you might not like it or find it hard to read into but he's said stuff (towny stuff imo)

i think you shouldn't make assumptions about people play just based on the game you're in - porkens can often be low-effort, but he's more than capable of producing substance as town (note: his early posts in that game had him using chatGPT as a gimmick, he drops it at iso #13 so skip there), and the fact that he hasn't done so here and seemingly hasn't read the game despite having multiple teammates who could help him, is legitimately scummy


i also think if you're going to chalk things up to a clash of playstyles, why can't you assume it would be town vs town and they're misreading you due to not understanding how you play? not every push

has

to have malicious intent. i think wgeurts legitimately believes their whole iso-dive case trying to bury you, the way they talk about it feels like genuine belief over

so here's the deal

Cat Scratch Fever is a townie. This is a meta read, and meta reads tend to be annoying if you don't know the person, but it is what it is. she's much moe low-effort/low investment as scum

wgeurts is town because there's legitimate conviction in their highprincesserinys push, annoyance at porkens doing nothing, even starting to get irritated with me for not doing anything with my vote. they're someone who is very clearly trying to solve the game.

Fate is town because i don't think he fakes derping on the setup like that as scum and cuz i think he believes thstuff he's pushing on

Adorable also probably town for earnestness but i have a weak spot for players who sound earnest. there's a little more uncertainty here because she's been playing a bit reserved but i think her recent posts come across as fairly plausible explanations for her reads

radical rat mostly looks the part of a townie with how they've been going about things, their vote on me is silly but i don't think it's scum-motivated

cerb idfk he hasn't done anything but is kind of yolo town. him accusing hpe of beetlejuicing felt a lil opportunistic maybe but it might be one of those cases where i'd expect a player to try to project towniness a little more as scum. i'm content to give him a pass for today and let him cook i guess

i want to ponder hpe here but my gut is kind of telling me they're town still and jingle's defense of it just looks like it's coming from an informed to my eyes

jingle i just think is kind of scum because his case on me stinks, his perspective has been frozen in amber since page 4, it doesn't feel like he's truly attempting to evaluate or analyze anything people say, he just has a perspective he wants to push which is me/wgeurts being scum, regardless of how much sense it makes

porkens is prolly just scum cuz he's frozen and not playing the game

open chatgpt: viewtopic.php?t=90462 (again he's gimmicking for 13 posts or so, keep scrolling down and you'll see where he stops using chatgpt to write responses)
weird dreams mafia: viewtopic.php?t=90611 (it's a replace in, but, like, that game had a similarish number of posts to where this one is at now)

like he can be lazy and low effort at times but all available evidence from what i've seen is that as town he is capable of actually trying but as scum he barely cares

Got around to double checking some of his meta. He's capable of doing more as both alignments than he has shown here, but he does strike me as someone who needs more time to fake analysis / reads as scum:

Scum game 1

Spoiler:

Subject: Mini Theme 2155: SIN: This Impurity must be Cleansed!

I'm getting to this I swear to god

Is there a reason why you've yet to place a vote on anyone?

Yeah - I don't have a clue. I'll put something together tomorrow

As in I don't have any reads because I haven't even skimmed everything yet.

Scum game 2

Spoiler:

Subject: Micro 1061: If Trees Could Scream [Game Over]

PORKENS CAN YOU POST A LIST OF YOUR READS

VOTE: porkens

Fine gosh now I’ll actually have to read the ttread

Scum game 3

Spoiler:

Subject: Mini 2032: TAZ Mafia: Murder on the Rockport Limited [over]

The major thing I was basing Porkens off of was oh gamma is voting there and vice versa so probably town right
then I remembered gamma bussed everyone on his scumteam in my game and that porkens iso is still pretty awful

so maybe that's just the third and this game is really easy and we can all go home and drink wine

VOTE: porkens

no no stop

i promise I will start actually playing this game tomorrow.

please don't lynch me in the next 24 hours. I will read and post actual things

***

As scum, there's a general pattern of saying "I haven't been reading the game seriously yet" as an excuse for not having more serious thoughts or for having underdeveloped reads early in the game.

***

I don't doubt that he's busy when he wrote these posts, but playing scum requires more time to think about the game & that seems to be true for Porkens.

The same kind of posting is present this game too:

Spoiler:

Jeeze Louise of course just gut I haven’t read the game

The game was only on page 7 at this point lol - how long does it take to read the game?

Cause I gut your town and I haven’t read enough to c

I’m gunna read soon

“Tedious”? Dang.

Can you for once actually comment on the game, actually give thoughts on what's happening, instead of being obnoxious?

Soon. How am I being obnoxious?

Gonna sleep now as my first wall of text in years has drained me. I do want to note, not providing any insight as to where you stand and not committing to anything is not a playstyle difference.

Tell me who you like most, tell me who you lije least. I don't care about questions posed if you never follow up.

I’ll do it later

I didn't want to include this in the spoiler, because I think it's a good example of what I'm trying to express here. This interaction seemed like a bad dodge when asked a basic question of "who do you like / dislike" - that's the kind of question that really should not take that much time or consideration to answer.

---

He doesn't do this as town because all he has to do is post his genuine thoughts. It's hard to quote the absence of something, but here are some town games I looked at:

• viewtopic.php?sid=&f=53&t=89907&user_select%5B%5D=9469
  
• viewtopic.php?sid=&f=51&t=90036&user_select%5B%5D=9469
  
• viewtopic.php?sid=&f=23&t=90462&user_select%5B%5D=9469 - he does say he was going to post a readslist later in this post, but before that he already had more game-related content. More importantly, he's not using this as an excuse for not having more serious content. In fact, he even says that "posts were a lightning rod that generated the majority of content in this game so far" earlier.
  
• viewtopic.php?p=13565215&f=51&t=90144&u ... #p13565215
  
• viewtopic.php?sid=&f=3&t=90611&user_select%5B%5D=9469

---

As a bonus, Porkens' vote in 163 also looks worse if HPE and wgeurts are indeed both town, which is kinda where I'm at.

VOTE: Porkens

So about half of the reason I didn't want to weigh in on this is that these two cases are like... the same case. CSF put more effort in and it's an overall sexier case, but the fact that no one has made this connection is just weird af to me.

Also I haven't wanted to actually metadive porken's activity to check for reasons he might be more busy than normal, counterexamples to preclude cherry picking, teammates and their likely impact, etc. But that's cause that's like the most tedious part of mafia, even moreso than exhaustive buddy analysis.

[Jingle]

HPE swapped it's read on Peta at a time that allowed for a momentum shift to occur against Peta, without giving a compelling reason for doing so.

For context, HPE swapped to peta after I posted a case about peta. I am more interested in your take on the reactions to the case than the case itself though. Specifically, peta's response to wgeurts' case. wgeurts thinks that the reaction is natural because they were previously mindmeldy but I wanted to know if you agreed with that takeaway.

[Jingle]

ngl, I assumed it was me.

[Jingle]

Agree that post was kinda weak but the feeling didn't improve after this even though he was mostly talking at me

Yeah, I completely get where you're coming from. cerbs has just kinda been around fmpov, which isn't particularly surprising. There are bits I've liked, and bits I haven't, but nothing to really push my read far in either direction. tbh, I haven't put a lot of time or effort into solving him today. Koba still hasn't seen the discord message about wanting to know what was liked, but I'll let you know when that changes.

I am vaguely interested in the fact that this wagon only showed up while cerbs was V/LA and I think that says you and Adorable probably aren't cerb partners. Scum don't tend to bus their buddy when they can't defend themselves if they'll presumably be better able to defend themselves later. It also makes me feel a bit better about both of you that you don't give a shit about the optics of voting someone right after they dip like that too in a general sense.

[Jingle]

Jingle, remember how I said that the way to judge wgeurts is on the consistency and progression of the cases they make? Taken in that light, what impact does the wgeurts push on HPE have on your read of wgeurts?

Mobile so snip quoting is too much effort, but I’m assuming 233 is what you’re referring to here.

Very little. First, because wgeurts doesn’t really seem to have a progression there. It appears to be HPE is scum -> event -> HPE is scum. There hasn’t been significant change and a death tunnel isn’t the towny sort of consistency. It’s the NAI sort of consistency. Second because I think the metric I’ve been using to read wgeurts (whether they would actually think the things they say they think) is a fine metric by which to read wgeurts. I haven’t been attempting to read their slot by their belief in the push on HPE but rather on their reactions to other people. I’ve spent a lot more time on whether wgeurts believes peta believes the case than my actual argument against the case, because to me the case itself is like a tertiary concern at best.

[Jingle]

Sorry, I was mostly talking about the very end of the post, RR.

[Jingle]

Wgeurts, did you go to Coachella after I specifically told you not to?

[Jingle]

I’m gonna need that wgeurts tow case, btw, cerbs.

[Jingle]

So, 48 hours to go. I could compromise on porkens or fate, ig, but I have absolutely no faith that’ll go anywhere. I vaguely think porkens is scummier than Fate. I think at most one of cerbs wgeurts is scum and it’s highly likely that it is T/S based on early interactions. Their opening didn’t look aligned.

I think peta/wgeurts have had some weird dancing around each other and would be shocked if they are both town.

RR feels like town to me, but it’s not a particularly strong read. I just think that given my experience with them in triplicate they would be significantly more proactive and manipulative in trying to stop town from blocking here.

Adorable, csf and HPE are all on my veto list for D1.

I’m likely not going to be super high presence before deadline, but I’ll be around.

[Jingle]

DK is telling me to veto porkens/fate, so I should clarify. The veto list is names I would prefer a no elimination to. I would deadline lim either porkens or fate despite koba thinking they’re town.

Koba also wants it known they explicitly want a cerbs or peta lim over all others.

[Jingle]

(I would also deadline lim rat, but would be even less happy about that than the porkens/Fate options, in case that wasn’t clear)

[Jingle]

I'm starting to worry we won't have sufficient time to get claims and stuff with ppl checking in infrequently

I don't think this is specifically about me, but to be clear, I don't think I'll be checking in infrequently, I think I won't have a large chunk of time to devote. I should be ~present until deadline, but there's no way in hell I'll get around to another wallpost or decent partner analysis today or tomorrow.

[Jingle]

Fate going to bat for porkens here probably not S/S.

[Jingle]

what the hell world are you living in where you ever considered that a possibility

D1?

Like… I’m not sure what the question here is. There’s no mechanical reason it can’t be either of you so of course I’m going to consider you both, independently and as a team.

[Jingle]

what the hell world are you living in where you ever considered that a possibility

D1?

Like… I’m not sure what the question here is. There’s no mechanical reason it can’t be either of you so of course I’m going to consider you both, independently and as a team.

independently fine, I can understand a townie's perspective of "scum within the Fate/Porkens duo"

but I don't understand how any townie could've considered we were scum together with this approach. I mean statistically its possible but

idk Im biased here obviously, because I know how radically different I'd play as scum if Porkens was my buddy

That's kind of what I'm saying. I'm saying that the actions you are taking make it unlikely that you are both scum together. I considered the option because I don't have the knowledge of your alignments and I reached the conclusion "Nah, man, that ain't it."

I'm kinda getting the sense that you're saying "How dare you not think we're aligned. You should think we're not aligned!" and that's... fucking bizarre.

[Jingle]

cerbs is at E-1

Fate poked porkens to vote cerbs out of survival and did so in a very non S/S way and then got weirded out when I pointed out they're likely unaligned.

Porkens and Fate are both sus of adorable. Adorable is okay flipping either Porkens or cerbs. cerbs and wgeurts haven't said much today, which is especially concerning from wgeurts.

We're close to deadline.

[Jingle]

I'd like a claim and a wgeurts checkin.

[Jingle]

Prodding wgeurts as they have not made any sort of game content post since Thursday.

Wgeurts, did you go to Coachella after I specifically told you not to?

I wish, sorry guys.

Literally not good enough according to the rules.

[Jingle]

Cerb claimed Mario.

Mario and Loogi would be a perfectly reasonable scumteam for a SuperMarioBros Game with two scum. "The main character is definitely a town role" only applies with bad mods. Regardless, self resolving claim, so it saves him for a nightphase.

UNVOTE:

[Jingle]

Porkens is E-2, btw.

[Jingle]

When I get NKd you know why

Because it was Fate?

[Jingle]

VOTE: wgeurts

[Jingle]

Fwiw I think peta is still a better lim than wgeurts but I also don’t expect either of them are actually viable this late. I fully expect that I’m on a vanity wagon and will deadline compromise on porkens.

[Jingle]

I’m explicitly unsurprised fate is protecting porkens here, fwiw. And I think it’s slightly towny.

[Jingle]

Fwiw I think peta is still a better lim than wgeurts but I also don’t expect either of them are actually viable this late. I fully expect that I’m on a vanity wagon and will deadline compromise on porkens.

How is wgeurts not viable SRS QUESTION

I don’t think 6 people will agree to vote them here? Adorable, csf, peta, wgeurts, cerbs all seem pretty opposed from where I sit.

[Jingle]

I don’t understand why they’ve come to that point, but that seems to be where they’re at.

[Jingle]

Sure, but hammer isn’t falling before wgeurts posts content or is replaced. Prodging explicitly doesn’t net extra time.

[Jingle]

10. Players who have not posted content for 48 hours will receive a prod. I will not accept prod dodges. After receiving a prod, a player has 24 hours to post before I will begin seeking a replacement. If a player receives three prods they will be replaced. I define content as something relevant to the game that engages with it or any player. It can be one sentence as long as it's relevant and engaged.

[Jingle]

It is. I’d rather we wait until the 14 hour timer on wgeurts ends before e-1 in case cerbs scum qh’s, but that’s a relatively small concern.

[Jingle]

It does really need to be Porkens here.

Cerb's claim is at least partly verifiable, wgeurts is off the table for me, and while I personally would be okay with CSF or peta, my team is very firmly not.

Porkens is the only scummy slot left, I'm not moving.

While we wait, towncase wgeurts?

[Jingle]

FWIW I explicitly believe that Porkens is struggling with IRL shit due to ogi I stumbled on. This is not me saying that porkens is town or scum, but rather that porkens lack of engagement is probably NAI in this case. I’d share the ogi, but a) it’s not my place and b) it’s not game relevant.

[Jingle]

Fair. What’s your take on wgeurts sudden departure from planet erf?

[Jingle]

Yeah, so explicitly you have literally not been playing the game for roughly half a week. I understand that RL takes precedence, but it is also incredibly frustrating that that is true of 3 slots and might as well be true of more.

It also not why I’m basing my read on you the way I am. Cerbs is towntunneling you for consistency of reads, when that consistency is a deathtunnel on a lhf slot that hasn’t been reevaluated… ever. Peta is towntunneling you and simultaneously pushing a slot for being unable to put out content.

If I can’t read you because you’re not playing the game, I can most certainly attempt to read other people based on your absence, and I frankly don’t give a shit if you think I’m being rude when I point out that you’re literally being prodded for failing to post game content.

[Jingle]

Spoiler: the actual context of what you’re responding to

i don't doubt it's real but also the routine of scum being run up and stalling while using appeals to emotion is a time-honored routine

so i don't actually care

Fair. What’s your take on wgeurts sudden departure from planet erf?

I’m not arguing you don’t have content. I’m arguing that cerbs reason of “wgeurts should be read for progression” is not at all a reason to townread you given… very little progression. I’m arguing that peta being entirely fine with your absence while crusading the policy lim on porkens is at least worth poking. And I’m venting my frustrations that it feels like I’m the only one fucking doing things.

I explicitly believe that you’ve been busy irl, although it is concerning to me that neither Titus or ythan have been following along enough to help you even slightly while rl sucks, but sympathy for being busy doesn’t mean I won’t play as hard as I fucking can.

And I completely get rl getting in the way. I haven’t had the time to do deep iso dives or exhaustive meta comparisons on porkens or baseline mood analyses of the rest of the player lists’ ooh posting or anything I’d count as high effort. This game is me slacking hard, and I’m still the largest source of content by a country mile.

[Jingle]

Titus is literally dealing with a medical problem they've posted about in their own game and Ythan hasn't been following my game and got prodded for their own. I'll admit I skimmed and missed the post prior. Catching up.

Point taken with Titus, but fwiw you should be careful with this. This is coming a little close to talking about ongoings. I don’t have an issue with it, but it would really suck to have more tm drama, tbh.

[Jingle]

remaining *internally* consistent in their application of these standards. HPE *hadn't* done anything that addressed wgeurts primary concerns, and *had* done things that perpetuated them, and so the read deepened.

Is the assertion here that the tunnel wrt HPE is towny or NAI? Because I think it’s nonsense to argue that scum wgeurts wouldn’t dog with a bone on a slot that they could easily get away with dog with a bone-ing on.

[Jingle]

I fundamentally disagree that posting other reads is a thing that precludes the scum motivation of a tunnel, because both not having to vote a scum buddy despite keeping them suspect and displaying consistency are things that scum also gets out of that, but I can at least understand that you think it’s town indicative of wgeurts and respect that read on its own merit is a genuine one. I’ll think more about how compelling I find it later.

[Jingle]

Jingle: Why do you think a universe exists where scum!me quick hammers to end the day?

Because if you are scum banking on a joat claim to save you for a night and expect you die tomorrow it’s the right play to cut off discussion and porkens softed a pr?

[Jingle]

I’m honestly surprised you didn’t see that if you in fact didn’t see it.

[Jingle]

I do not have the mental capacity to read and digest all I can do is gut and meme but it promise keeping me alive for a few days will pay off BIG TIME HUGE

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Porkens

VOTE: Adorable

Soft. Included for funsies, Fate catching the soft and making himself incredibly town by reacting to it.

[Jingle]

Cerbs, do you remember overkill one? It was a A50 game where I literally broke the game based on flavor on d1, and I’m pretty sure you were unfortunate scum in an unbalanced setup. I then spent several days consecutively limming scum and making micro optimizations despite the game being functionally unwinnable for the scum team because I don’t discount anything. Ever.

[Jingle]

the fact that jingle is giving porkens a million miles for a presumed softclaim that should in theory

directly oppose

cerb's claim makes no sense

aren't you supposed to be, like, good at mechanics?

The fact actually is that jingle isn’t giving porkens any miles based on a soft claim that doesn’t at all effect the claim of cerbs that jingle doesn’t believe is actually clearing but rather that Jingle is pointing out that trying to hide a soft claim with a panic chainsaw into trying very publicly to derail the wagon literally anywhere else is ++town for fate. But I understand that words are hard.

[Jingle]

It doesn’t CC you at all, but acknowledging that would be antithetical to the attempt to shade me, so…

[Jingle]

My approach being… goading people into taking stances and attempting to push my scumreads?

Insert Taylor swift gif here.

[Jingle]

VOTE: peta, btw

[Jingle]

VOTE: peta, btw

No

Why?

[Jingle]

The soft doesn’t say shit for porkens alignment any more than cerbs claim says for his, and I fully expect the wagon will go through. I didn’t bother keeping it hidden because of that. I expect mechanically, that a setup along those lines will have 1-2 significant sources of town power based on the strength of the day roles. Given the short time before deadline, any attempt to untangle that is going to benefit scum way more than town and is better left for tomorrow.

[Jingle]

he's deflecting using sarcasm in the face of not bing able to actually produce a logical rebuttal here

I’m responding with condescension, actually, because your points are actually very ridiculous.

[Jingle]

shit for Porkens alignment

Checkmate, Atheists

If porkens flips shit I will lie down and eat the TMI pl, just for you.

[Jingle]

If Porkens did indeed soft earlier, I want him committed to a claim at the very least.

Why? We’re limming him anyway.

[Jingle]

I intend to hammer in about 23 hours, if that helps.

[Jingle]

yeah so that's a scumclaim

fwiw jingle should never be allowed to endgame because his play this phase has been downright horrific. i pulled the detente with him partly because i thought he might actually be a mason with hpe but his posts after proved to not be the case. i think the weird round of questioning might be pocketing, not sure. regardless if he's not cleared by an investigation don't let him off the hook.

everyone else off wagon i think is town tbqh. generally when scum plays like porkens their partner is going to recognize and cut bait sooner rather than later

So… just to unpack here: I’m confscum. And also Porkens is confscum. And also I’m literally the only person in the thread who would see porkens scum buddy flailing and dying and goes “you know how I should react to that? By drawing literally all of the attention to me.”

[Jingle]

VOTE: peta, btw

No

Why?

[Jingle]

had a crying screaming flailing meltdown at me calling you out

Yeah… not a thing that ever actually happened. At best you could call my back and forth with wgeurts a meltdown, but even that is disgenuine as fuck.

No go ask LLD if this is what scum Jingle does, because if she’s backing you pushing me here I might as well have a cop guilty on you.

[Jingle]

Jingle not voting any actual real wagon as if this were middle of the day is as anti-town as ending it early

but again

the tinfoil hat mega dance happened, peta

There legitimately is not a real cw. I explained as much when I voted wgeurts. There are too many townies with wrong reads to lim anyone other than porkens if porkens is town.

[Jingle]

6 peopel are willing to vote peta? god were worse off than I thought

Nope. Csf and wgeurts are both hardtowning peta, adorable won’t vote anyone other than porkens you’re unwilling to vote peta. That’s five, peta wagon isn’t viable.

[Jingle]

Literally, of 10 players, there is exactly one which has 6 players willing to vote them. Which doesn’t mean porkens is town. It means that all of this, literally everything since cerbs claimed, has been about trying to figure out where we stand after porkens flip happens.

[Jingle]

yeah so that's a scumclaim

fwiw jingle should never be allowed to endgame because his play this phase has been downright horrific. i pulled the detente with him partly because i thought he might actually be a mason with hpe but his posts after proved to not be the case. i think the weird round of questioning might be pocketing, not sure. regardless if he's not cleared by an investigation don't let him off the hook.

everyone else off wagon i think is town tbqh. generally when scum plays like porkens their partner is going to recognize and cut bait sooner rather than later

So… just to unpack here: I’m confscum. And also Porkens is confscum. And also I’m literally the only person in the thread who would see porkens scum buddy flailing and dying and goes “you know how I should react to that? By drawing literally all of the attention to me.”

for the record that was a reaction to what i mistakenly presumed was an accidental selfhammer, which is not the case. this is also before you came into the thread and had a crying screaming flailing meltdown at me calling you out

but again i've laid out alternative scenarios. i think it's possible porkens's partner cut bait on him and is voting him. i'm not gonna fully discuss that right now. i just want you to be the elimination 100% of the time following a porkens red flip, absent anything mechanical clearing you. because your play makes far more sense as being proscum and you shouldn't be given a pass for it.

I read this and I see you dodging the point (that there is severe cogdis between porkens is confscum and jingle only makes sense as wking porkens) by saying it was all because porkens had self hammered, and then doubling down on the cogdis.

[Jingle]

You heavily implied it with the “any porkens partner would have cut their losses” bit. So why is that a thing for any porkens partner… except Jingle?

[Jingle]

Fwiw I think peta is still a better lim than wgeurts but I also don’t expect either of them are actually viable this late. I fully expect that I’m on a vanity wagon and will deadline compromise on porkens.

It’s not like I’ve hidden my thoughts on this at all.

[Jingle]

Scum are sitting here ignoring the adorable wagon

For posterity

Adorable/One of people who hasn't commented on her since that wagon started

I mean, adorable is roughly as viable as peta.

I’m unwilling, csf is unwilling, peta is unwilling, adorable is unwilling. You would need literally every other player.

[Jingle]

Scum are sitting here ignoring the adorable wagon

For posterity

Adorable/One of people who hasn't commented on her since that wagon started

Spoiler:

adorable is my dark horse pick for teammate throwing porkens under the bus

it's possible jingle is just having a case of mad cuz bad

Again with the “Jingle is being emotional” narrative. Show me literally any post I’ve made, other than voicing frustration with lurking at wgeurts that is even slightly mad today. I’ll give you a hint: there isn’t one.

[Jingle]

Given the choice of no-lim or lim slot x, all but the most devoted of people with a town read on slot x will vote them.

But that’s not the choice. The choice is porkens or slot x. There are already 6 people willing to lim porkens, so no lim isn’t actually a concern.

[Jingle]

Can anyone give me a summary on what I have missed? I have some catching up to do and I have a meeting in 30 minutes.

nothing important, a bunch of people are yelling at each other

Nothing important here refers to:

Cerbs having content after being gone for a week, including an elaboration of his wgeurts stance.
Fate obvtowning while trying to shop a no go wagon to save porkens.
Peta repeatedly accusing me of being angry while arguing that I’m scum for doing something he asserts in literally the same post scum wouldn’t do.
Me being decidedly not mad.
Porkens being a foregone lim conclusion.

[Jingle]

When you say fates push on you pinged you can you point to what you mean? I believe I know, but that’s rather ambiguous atm.

[Jingle]

Scum are sitting here ignoring the adorable wagon

For posterity

Adorable/One of people who hasn't commented on her since that wagon started

Spoiler:

adorable is my dark horse pick for teammate throwing porkens under the bus

it's possible jingle is just having a case of mad cuz bad

This, btw, is 100% pure unadulterated posturing.

Jingle is still scum with porkens, despite my own reason for them not both being scum. But also, jingle is just a bad player, so if they flip green you shouldn’t put any credence into them scumreading me. But also also, I’m totally not ignoring adorable, she’s a scum option too, despite literally being the person who is demonstrating the behavior Fate is calling out.

[Jingle]

When you say fates push on you pinged you can you point to what you mean? I believe I know, but that’s rather ambiguous atm.

I said Fate's defense on Porkens pinged me.

Cerb asked me a question if I often get pinged by players going after me and I thought Cerb meant that I got pinged by them for how the way they approached me before the claim.

My b, but the point still stands. Can you point to where exactly you were pinged? Like, a post or a few posts you thought were particularly indicative?

[Jingle]

Spoiler: All the posts I’d like peta to respond to, conveniently collected in one place!

It doesn’t CC you at all, but acknowledging that would be antithetical to the attempt to shade me, so…

had a crying screaming flailing meltdown at me calling you out

Yeah… not a thing that ever actually happened. At best you could call my back and forth with wgeurts a meltdown, but even that is disgenuine as fuck.

No go ask LLD if this is what scum Jingle does, because if she’s backing you pushing me here I might as well have a cop guilty on you.

You heavily implied it with the “any porkens partner would have cut their losses” bit. So why is that a thing for any porkens partner… except Jingle?

Can anyone give me a summary on what I have missed? I have some catching up to do and I have a meeting in 30 minutes.

nothing important, a bunch of people are yelling at each other

Nothing important here refers to:

Cerbs having content after being gone for a week, including an elaboration of his wgeurts stance.
Fate obvtowning while trying to shop a no go wagon to save porkens.
Peta repeatedly accusing me of being angry while arguing that I’m scum for doing something he asserts in literally the same post scum wouldn’t do.
Me being decidedly not mad.
Porkens being a foregone lim conclusion.

Scum are sitting here ignoring the adorable wagon

For posterity

Adorable/One of people who hasn't commented on her since that wagon started

Spoiler:

adorable is my dark horse pick for teammate throwing porkens under the bus

it's possible jingle is just having a case of mad cuz bad

This, btw, is 100% pure unadulterated posturing.

Jingle is still scum with porkens, despite my own reason for them not both being scum. But also, jingle is just a bad player, so if they flip green you shouldn’t put any credence into them scumreading me. But also also, I’m totally not ignoring adorable, she’s a scum option too, despite literally being the person who is demonstrating the behavior Fate is calling out.

Scum are sitting here ignoring the adorable wagon

For posterity

Adorable/One of people who hasn't commented on her since that wagon started

Spoiler:

adorable is my dark horse pick for teammate throwing porkens under the bus

it's possible jingle is just having a case of mad cuz bad

Again with the “Jingle is being emotional” narrative. Show me literally any post I’ve made, other than voicing frustration with lurking at wgeurts that is even slightly mad today. I’ll give you a hint: there isn’t one.

your push back on me is nothing if not an emotional one lmao

it's okay you don't have to hide it

It must really sting to not be able to find any post where I’m screaming, yelling, flailing or ranting. It’s okay, peta, I understand.

[Jingle]

Peta repeatedly accusing me of being angry while arguing that I’m scum for doing something he asserts in literally the same post scum wouldn’t do.

this is inaccurate

i think scum are

more likely

to do a certain thing but

not always

. the game is shaped by player archetypes. a less controlling player with less thread presence and less experience is far more likely to go with the flow of thread momentum and throw a teammate under the bus. on the other hand a more experienced scum player is more likely to realize losing a partner Day 1 in a 10p is a near death sentence and will try to avoid that for as long as possible.

however, i typed that post out in a matter of seconds believing we were in twilight. if you expect a post rushed out to have perfect logical coherency you are out of your mind

again i am only discussing possible scenarios of what i think is happening

so, again, y u mad tho?

yeah so that's a scumclaim

fwiw jingle should never be allowed to endgame because his play this phase has been downright horrific. i pulled the detente with him partly because i thought he might actually be a mason with hpe but his posts after proved to not be the case. i think the weird round of questioning might be pocketing, not sure. regardless if he's not cleared by an investigation don't let him off the hook.

everyone else off wagon i think is town tbqh. generally when scum plays like porkens their partner is going to recognize and cut bait sooner rather than later

So… just to unpack here: I’m confscum. And also Porkens is confscum. And also I’m literally the only person in the thread who would see porkens scum buddy flailing and dying and goes “you know how I should react to that? By drawing literally all of the attention to me.”

for the record that was a reaction to what i mistakenly presumed was an accidental selfhammer, which is not the case. this is also before you came into the thread and had a crying screaming flailing meltdown at me calling you out

but again i've laid out alternative scenarios. i think it's possible porkens's partner cut bait on him and is voting him. i'm not gonna fully discuss that right now. i just want you to be the elimination 100% of the time following a porkens red flip, absent anything mechanical clearing you. because your play makes far more sense as being proscum and you shouldn't be given a pass for it.

Hm. This post doubling down on the stance after realizing the hammer wasn’t real certainly agrees that it was heat of the moment.

[Jingle]

Scum are sitting here ignoring the adorable wagon

For posterity

Adorable/One of people who hasn't commented on her since that wagon started

Spoiler:

adorable is my dark horse pick for teammate throwing porkens under the bus

it's possible jingle is just having a case of mad cuz bad

This, btw, is 100% pure unadulterated posturing.

Jingle is still scum with porkens, despite my own reason for them not both being scum. But also, jingle is just a bad player, so if they flip green you shouldn’t put any credence into them scumreading me. But also also, I’m totally not ignoring adorable, she’s a scum option too, despite literally being the person who is demonstrating the behavior Fate is calling out.

correct, yes, if you're town i think the town should treat your scumreads as cop clears

That would certainly make the game much easier for scum peta!

[Jingle]

Hey, CSF, do you think I’m mad?

[Jingle]

Spoiler: All the posts I’d like peta to respond to, conveniently collected in one place!

It doesn’t CC you at all, but acknowledging that would be antithetical to the attempt to shade me, so…

had a crying screaming flailing meltdown at me calling you out

Yeah… not a thing that ever actually happened. At best you could call my back and forth with wgeurts a meltdown, but even that is disgenuine as fuck.

No go ask LLD if this is what scum Jingle does, because if she’s backing you pushing me here I might as well have a cop guilty on you.

You heavily implied it with the “any porkens partner would have cut their losses” bit. So why is that a thing for any porkens partner… except Jingle?

Can anyone give me a summary on what I have missed? I have some catching up to do and I have a meeting in 30 minutes.

nothing important, a bunch of people are yelling at each other

Nothing important here refers to:

Cerbs having content after being gone for a week, including an elaboration of his wgeurts stance.
Fate obvtowning while trying to shop a no go wagon to save porkens.
Peta repeatedly accusing me of being angry while arguing that I’m scum for doing something he asserts in literally the same post scum wouldn’t do.
Me being decidedly not mad.
Porkens being a foregone lim conclusion.

Scum are sitting here ignoring the adorable wagon

For posterity

Adorable/One of people who hasn't commented on her since that wagon started

Spoiler:

adorable is my dark horse pick for teammate throwing porkens under the bus

it's possible jingle is just having a case of mad cuz bad

This, btw, is 100% pure unadulterated posturing.

Jingle is still scum with porkens, despite my own reason for them not both being scum. But also, jingle is just a bad player, so if they flip green you shouldn’t put any credence into them scumreading me. But also also, I’m totally not ignoring adorable, she’s a scum option too, despite literally being the person who is demonstrating the behavior Fate is calling out.

Scum are sitting here ignoring the adorable wagon

For posterity

Adorable/One of people who hasn't commented on her since that wagon started

Spoiler:

adorable is my dark horse pick for teammate throwing porkens under the bus

it's possible jingle is just having a case of mad cuz bad

Again with the “Jingle is being emotional” narrative. Show me literally any post I’ve made, other than voicing frustration with lurking at wgeurts that is even slightly mad today. I’ll give you a hint: there isn’t one.

your push back on me is nothing if not an emotional one lmao

it's okay you don't have to hide it

It must really sting to not be able to find any post where I’m screaming, yelling, flailing or ranting. It’s okay, peta, I understand.

mad

Quoting to put the unresponded to issues on the new page.

[Jingle]

jingle what alignment is porkens going to flip

I expect town, though would be happy with a scumflip.