TM 2023 | Super Mario Bros Mafia | Game Over!

[petapan]

That wall wasn't about "Why is HPE town" it was about "Why was wgeurts' case garbage." So what, exactly, is super compelling and slam dunk about wgeurts' scumcase on HPE that lead to:

i like the wall

Why as town are you even focused on whether or not people are "altogether interested" in a wagon or not anyway?

this bit in particular resonates with me because i think scum often get caught using this type of reasoning about what is/isn't a viable wagon

And it's not like you don't know the motivation behind why I posted that, because both you and wgeurts literally asked why the case wasn't compelling.

no i know the motivation it's that your attempted fisking of it really sucks and seems like you have started from the conclusion hpe is town and worked backwards to discredit everything and there's noooo way anyone could see that stuff as scummy, when, like, hpe looks pretty opportunistic with its votes

[petapan]

on second thought

UNVOTE:

VOTE: porkens

this is probably a better day 1 vote

there's an edge case scenario where i'm wrong and pushing jingle today is antitown

[Jingle]

I actually kind of agree with your evaluation of Porkens. In both games he transferred out of unreadable to moderately unreadable and I've seen little evidence that's going to occur here. Also, I truly regret reading the ChatGPT roleplay as it was a waste of my time, but that's my own damn fault for not trusting the disclaimer.

[HighPrincessErinys]

Stop trying to utterly straw-man my push on you as "playstyle", I am solely talking about the intent behind your actions, actionable things which you posted and done within this thread.

If you're actually town you'd be trying to clarify what's in your head, not this weird as fudge dismissal crumpets.

You'd be telling me who you do potentially think is town. Telling me who you do potentially think is scum. Clarify your current stance on Fate and Porkens beyond just that they're silly, I know that, are they town or scum silly though? You would give any stance whatsoever regarding Cerb, CSF, RR and Adorable. You would be trying your hardest to explain what happened in your head that changed your mind on Peta so radically.

You'd be telling me what about Jingle's post sold you, why your thoughts changed.

Not telling me "reads change and fluctuate, that's normal"

This isn't playstyle, there's a bloody pattern of behaviour that doesn't make sense as town and does make sense as scum.

Even this defence is weird as hell if coming from town. This lacks a complete drive of any town intent.

These things are very well in the bounds of playstyle because playstyle isn't just someone's posting style or whatever, it's also how much info you divulge, when and how you do, what you regard as towny, scummy, NAI, AI... This one can give you a readlist on everyone and clarify "silly" and try its hardest to explain what made it change it's mind on peta. But you also never asked for any of that, never tried to get me to generate content by openly questioning me, you just let me go about my business so you could spin it as scummy. The closest you came was 198 which this one answered and you then subsequently said "hey isnt it weird how HPE said porkens then voted fate??" like that

means

anything when they were both birds of a not-doing-much feather at that point.


Also, complete with some brief ISO reading and briefer thoughts, as this one said it could give you:
Jingle (Bro has been popping off if you ask me, genuinely very very good ISO and this one will be hard to convince otherwise.)
CSF (Genuine and solvy, lines up with my experienced CSF meta)
Radical Rat (Alright, seems genuine.)
Adorable (Slight townlean, kind of eh-meh.)
Porkens, Fate (Nothing that this one really can pry alignment from, frankly. They are silly in a NAI way that reminds me of other silly men like N_M.)
Cerberus (Doing suspicious amounts of nothing in their rather low amount of posts)
petapan (Doing very suspicious amounts of nothing in their much higher amount of posts)
wgeurts (Yeah.)

Jingle's one post didn't just like, flip a switch in my brain to make me scumread petapan. This one took a closer, second look at his ISO, which it hadn't read in a while anyway, and earnestly saw what Jingle meant in terms of a lackluster amount of substance and points in posts that are meant to look like they have some. petapan had been kind of going down in my list anyway in terms of their posts and effort, but this was the cherry on top to drive it to an actual scumread rather than a lesser townlean.

i also think if you're going to chalk things up to a clash of playstyles, why can't you assume it would be town vs town and they're misreading you due to not understanding how you play? not every push

has

to have malicious intent. i think wgeurts legitimately believes their whole iso-dive case trying to bury you, the way they talk about it feels like genuine belief over

See the above.

[Jingle]

hpe looks pretty opportunistic with its votes

I don't disagree that the optics there look bad, I disagree that the optics looking bad are indicative that HPE is scum. HPE looks like its floundering without any fucking clue what to do, and that isn't a thing I expect to see from scum in most cases. That's something I expect to see from awkward people. And whatever else it is, HPE certainly gives off the awkward vibe.

[HighPrincessErinys]

Also completely and wholly unrelated but please use it/its and don't default to they.

[HighPrincessErinys]

Not at you Jingle, you're good, but just in general.

[Jingle]

Also completely and wholly unrelated but please use it/its and don't default to they.

If this is at me then I apologize. I typed up that whole wall defaulting to they and edited it because I often default to they nowadays and I legitimately thought I'd gotten all of them. Not an excuse if I failed, but I do appreciate that you prefer to be addressed as it/its and didn't mean to cause any offense. Please let me know if you see me do this again, as it's definitely a behavior that I need to know if I need to pay more attention to.

[HighPrincessErinys]

Again you're mostly fine, thank you for the effort.

[petapan]

hpe looks pretty opportunistic with its votes

I don't disagree that the optics there look bad, I disagree that the optics looking bad are indicative that HPE is scum. HPE looks like its floundering without any fucking clue what to do, and that isn't a thing I expect to see from scum in most cases. That's something I expect to see from awkward people. And whatever else it is, HPE certainly gives off the awkward vibe.

yeah i mean i kind of get your point it's just easy to see someone gradually walking back a townread on someone when they become a viable wagon and think there might be scum motivation in it

[petapan]

(i am biased of course because the person having the read walked back on is me)

[Jingle]

(i am biased of course because the person having the read walked back on is me)

I happen to have the exact opposite bias of thinking all of the things I said are scum indicative of you are, in fact, scum indicative of you. I'm open to being wrong though, and am more than happy to discuss reads. It's the happy upside to being very much so not confident about my reads. I can admit that I might be wrong and engage people in good faith even when screaming that they need to die.

Who do you think makes sense as an HPE partner, since you seem to think it wouldn't be me?

[petapan]

(i am biased of course because the person having the read walked back on is me)

I happen to have the exact opposite bias of thinking all of the things I said are scum indicative of you are, in fact, scum indicative of you. I'm open to being wrong though, and am more than happy to discuss reads. It's the happy upside to being very much so not confident about my reads. I can admit that I might be wrong and engage people in good faith even when screaming that they need to die.

Who do you think makes sense as an HPE partner, since you seem to think it wouldn't be me?

i am not pushing hpe as scum currently

[Jingle]

Oh, and someone mentioned that DK's reads were very buzzwordy. Yeah, that's kinda just the easiest way to paraphrase a wall. Find buzzwords that roughly fit what I think they're saying and if clarification becomes necessary I can put in more effort.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I also refuse to share a tier with adorable, I've been way scummier

I thought you were scumreading Adorable though or did that change?

Thoughts on everything else I've posted as it's not the kind of "don't comment" content

Read your wall and some of your later posts, and I think your case can be summarized by "HPE is going with the flow and keeping options open" right? Sorry if that's way too simplistic but for the sake of keeping it straight in my head

it doesn't strike me as a particularly confident or proactive player, so I'm not sure how scum indicative those points are. I do think it hasn't declared strong reads except on Jingle, but I don't think that's scum indicative either considering I haven't been feeling good about my own reads either tbh

Some specific points:

I think I mentioned this earlier but thinking both you & Porkens could be scum doesn't seem like cogdis to me because reads are nebulous at that early stage of the game.

About its progression on you, it started to have doubts but never really came around to a townread on you afaict - and then you did also kinda disappear for a few days, so I can see how it got there

I guess my overarching question is- why is HPE scummier than Cerb who hasn't been pushing anything but you admit can be within their town meta? Or Fate who was on both your (wgeurts) and petapan wagons and whose read changes i'm finding difficult to follow?

Basically why is your HPE case such a "slam dunk" compared to some other reads that you're more nuanced about?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I actually need adderall to get through this game

[Jingle]

i am not pushing hpe as scum currently

Sure, because you think I'm scum and I don't make sense as an HPE partner. I'm still interested in getting the answer because from my POV if I flip green there's nothing stopping you from turning around and pushing HPE again.

[petapan]

Oh, and someone mentioned that DK's reads were very buzzwordy. Yeah, that's kinda just the easiest way to paraphrase a wall. Find buzzwords that roughly fit what I think they're saying and if clarification becomes necessary I can put in more effort.

that was me

anyway i think it's i think it's possible we're town trying to teach each other's throats out and scum are just filing their nails. we agree on adorable and CSF town, i wanna re-check radical rat but i think i am okay with them

[petapan]

i am not pushing hpe as scum currently

Sure, because you think I'm scum and I don't make sense as an HPE partner. I'm still interested in getting the answer because from my POV if I flip green there's nothing stopping you from turning around and pushing HPE again.

right but there's nothing stopping me from going after anyone and pushing them after you're dead? i started to call wgeurts and hpe tvt within the last hour or so. i still haven't fully digested princess's defense because i've been tangoing with you but that's not a direction i'm interested in pursuing. i'm not sure what you're looking for here exactly?

[Jingle]

I'm looking for a reason to think you're town. Basically:

It's all about tailoring the game to a place where we CAN solve the game instead of just trying to solve the game from the opening of the thread.

[petapan]

I'm looking for a reason to think you're town. Basically:

It's all about tailoring the game to a place where we CAN solve the game instead of just trying to solve the game from the opening of the thread.

if you haven't figured out i'm town because you're too invested in not liking my pushes i don't think me arguing with you is going to help it. like i can tell you me doing a whipsaw 180 on your alignment after announcing i was going to death tunnel you doesn't come from me as scum but you are under no obligation to believe me


i'd rather talk to you about your worldview, find common ground in perspective, and hopefully eliminate scum based on building a good towncore

[Jingle]

i'd rather talk to you about your worldview, find common ground in perspective, and hopefully eliminate scum based on building a good towncore

Like discussing the gamestate reasons that HPE makes more sense as town than scum?

Tell me more about your CSF read. I vaguely like them tonally but I can't remember anything from them I think was exceptionally town.

[petapan]

not actually solidly convinced RR is town on iso 132 is a real stretch of a read. i like the skepticism in 164/196 but it's like one fully formed thought that doesn't go anywhere while not having a lot elsewhere, all their PUSHes have been pretty tepid before piggybackingriding off jingle's vote on me

so probably wouldn't towncore RR over people i have better reasons to townread

[Radical Rat]

To clarify regarding HPE and the whole playstyle thing, since my name is getting dropped a lot here...

I only have a couple games experience with it, and unless I'm mistaken it was Town in both, and I do not consider myself to be particularly good at meta reads, and in fact try to avoid using meta as a primary basis for reads where possible anyway, so this is explicitly NOT me saying it must be Town because of this...

BUT I have witnessed and participated in it getting mislimmed for similar patterns of behavior before, so it isn't a scumtell or anything.

On a personal level, I lean Town on it. I'll borrow Klick's words because he expressed why better than I could when I last mentioned it, but he said HPE doesn't appear to care about how its posts look, and... yeah that tracks with the vibe I'm feeling.

[petapan]

i'd rather talk to you about your worldview, find common ground in perspective, and hopefully eliminate scum based on building a good towncore

Like discussing the gamestate reasons that HPE makes more sense as town than scum?

Tell me more about your CSF read. I vaguely like them tonally but I can't remember anything from them I think was exceptionally town.

lmao

man if you wanted to make that argument just say it don't make me do the homework

!!!

i wouldn't be

stunned

if hpe were scum with fate even though they voted each other, or RR, or, like, adorable but i wouldn't consider any of those especially

likely

. i am willing to accept "no viable partners" reads but usually not on day 1

i just kind of think hpe might town on its own merits

---

regardarding CSF: 84 is a pointed question off a good observation (88) that i also thought at the time, 136 is a good uestion of how HPE was using phrasing that avoided directly calling things scummy

but at the same time she's pushing HPE she's also questioning people pushing HPE - 189/212 - actively attempting to understand their mindset and looking at multiple angles, not idly accepting votes on a target

in general asking pointed questions and trying to figure people out