Cosmos Mafia (Postgame)

Tue Dec 20, 2022 4:40 am

Feeling sick I will have to catch up later.

Wed Dec 21, 2022 8:54 am

I think there's no way DDS can be scum. Given that while I recover from my illness consider me going to proxy my vote to them for now.

Wed Dec 21, 2022 8:56 am

I am aware they are voting Enchant atm and I will if need be when the time comes.

Thu Dec 22, 2022 4:20 am

In post 7658, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow wrote:Yay
Unfortunately I'm starting to get ill myself
And I'm starting to wonder if you're scum
But apart from those things
Yay

I mean I'm not gonna vote myself to honor this proxy so don't think you'll get to pull a fast one.

Thu Dec 22, 2022 4:21 am

Don't make me follow Prof instead

Thu Dec 22, 2022 2:40 pm

My role has been out since day 1

Fri Dec 23, 2022 1:48 pm

In post 7760, professotic wrote:Eh the only thing not adding up is Yume said he only knows and that they are aware of kill targeted or negative effects targeting.
They didn’t claim Protective but rather Pseudo Investigative.

However sure you can argue that Yume did mention about to kill Mastina but again, Yume only claimed to be informed about it, not protect it and that’s where I’m stumbling here.

She later recanted this part of her claim after implying it could only effect Mastina and Mathblade.

Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:12 pm

RIP

DDS is mod confirmed to not be Solar.

Sat Dec 24, 2022 6:07 pm

In post 7859, professotic wrote:
In post 7843, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:
In post 7837, professotic wrote:That’s really fucking bad solve lmao.

Firebringer is fine but the Lunar solve you have is a fucking joke.

After what both have done your just gonna continue with your read on them?
It’s a lazy “oh I’ll just name the low posters” wolf pin.
It’s something a wolf does, again makes me believe you to be a wolf here.
No offense, but you're literally trying to hero solve by clinging onto what is possible instead of probable. I think I have blatantly been trying to solve, and you're letting people coast because ________ (fill in the blank).

If mastina is scum, why does my slot try to save her? And furthermore, why does my PoE not make sense to you?
If I wasn’t trying to hero solve, Porkens and RR wouldn’t have went over.
So nice try.

Those flips were both because of me, thanks for your help though.

Sat Dec 24, 2022 6:12 pm

I know that's gonna set you off and it's not meant to. But I was the tipping point of doing the lurker lim on Porkens over Ydrasse, and did the hard arguing for it... and since I had received the fake message from that slot I confirmed RR as scum. I'm only pointing this out because you're claiming credit for things that were outside your control, even if they were outcomes you approved of. And that's part of the reason why you're getting pushback from other players. Play for the town team if you're town rather than team Prof.

Sat Dec 24, 2022 6:13 pm

Also, Merry Christmas if you celebrate!

Mon Dec 26, 2022 4:13 pm

In post 7907, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:UNVOTE:

T-Bone, penny for your thoughts

What do you want?

OOC: tested positive still not feeling great so haven't back read. I'm basically just reacting in real time from my last two posts.

Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:55 am

In post 7967, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:
In post 7960, T-Bone wrote:
In post 7907, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:UNVOTE:

T-Bone, penny for your thoughts
What do you want?

OOC: tested positive still not feeling great so haven't back read. I'm basically just reacting in real time from my last two posts.
Do you still think Enchant is scum, and generally who do you think is scum

I've never thought Enchant was scum. At best I think I need to revaluate reads because I had RR ask town...but I don't remember voicing that thought. Saying I would sheep DDS while I was really sick didn't have any bearing on my read. I'll think about it some more. I think I am Ydrasse, you or meuh, Prof or PPF, then the rest.

VOTE: Ydrasse

I keep trying to eliminate Ydrasse as a scum read but find I can't because of who I read as town and why. I think Ydrasse will flip scum, not totally confident, but reasonably enough.

Tue Dec 27, 2022 8:31 am

I find it tough to be fatalistic in the face of 3 correct flips and just one kill at night.

Tue Dec 27, 2022 1:12 pm

In post 8010, Past Present Future wrote:
In post 6386, T-Bone wrote:Although Scarf seemed to believe it did based on his role though?
I’ve been wondering about this because Scarf claimed vt. Did Scarf posit this theory before or after MMR flip?

iirc correctly this originally came from Day 1 after Mastina had claimed? Because I had made an ask of whether anyone had attunement in their Role PMs because I didn't. Enchant had also said so and then Scarf was like 'shush you vt claims will give the game away'. I had assumed it was because of Scarf's role and that's why I had stopped pushing the attunement issue. Since it was weird, (and still is in some respects) weird to me that only one player's role mentions attunement to be a thing.

Thinking about that, why did Rat never take issue with attunements? Certainly if you're scum that's the type of thing you can confidentially say exists or doesn't exist, right?

Tue Dec 27, 2022 1:17 pm

In post 8011, Past Present Future wrote:I also want to ask T-Bone you were pushing Prof really hard before, have you changed your read on him? If not, why Ydrasse?

tbh I thought Prof made more sense as Solar scum, due to his wild insistence that he wanted to punish Lunar and wanted Solar to win. He's definitely not Solar. I already contested the credit he tried to claim for the Solar eliminations, but one thing is certain. Porken's flip condemned Rat, so I don't think the last Solar person was on that wagon. The only way I could buy it is if we flipped Porkens before Prof could try to walk it back (IE a vote that got out of hands while they were offline). He no longer exists in the space where he could be either team in my eyes. Really, only one player is left on this playerlist I feel fits on both teams (Ydrasse).

Tue Dec 27, 2022 1:20 pm

In post 8016, Meuh wrote:So the way I see it: Ydrasse and Porkens' wagons happened one after the other, they were in similar positions of influence (both not super present, though at least Ydrasse existed) and had a similar amount of towncred. So there must be a reason why Porkens went through, and Ydrasse didn't.
Either:
1. Ydrasse is lunar scum who had one or two influential (high thread presence/high towncred) partners that prevented the lim on her from going through. Someone like T-bone, CSF or DDS is lunar scum and had her back.
2. Ydrasse just happened to be townread by key players, which prevented her from being limmed. (NAI in nature)

Because of the aforementioned similar positions from Porkens and Ydrasse, I find the first option more likely and specifically the idea of lunar!Ydrasse quite likely. and even if it wasn't a or some partners responsible for her living, she can still very much be scum.

Was it anyone else besides Junko and I? I thought we were the two players who drove that flip tbh. My memory of it is that I accepted Ydrasse's AtE, and wanted to get the non-posting slot instead, I pleaded with Junko/you, then everyone else came in for the deadline (though Rat tried to fight it for obvious reasons).

Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:50 pm

In post 8028, Past Present Future wrote:
In post 8024, T-Bone wrote:
In post 8011, Past Present Future wrote:I also want to ask T-Bone you were pushing Prof really hard before, have you changed your read on him? If not, why Ydrasse?
tbh I thought Prof made more sense as Solar scum, due to his wild insistence that he wanted to punish Lunar and wanted Solar to win. He's definitely not Solar. I already contested the credit he tried to claim for the Solar eliminations, but one thing is certain. Porken's flip condemned Rat, so I don't think the last Solar person was on that wagon. The only way I could buy it is if we flipped Porkens before Prof could try to walk it back (IE a vote that got out of hands while they were offline). He no longer exists in the space where he could be either team in my eyes. Really, only one player is left on this playerlist I feel fits on both teams (Ydrasse).
But RR flipped goon. I could see scum being on it for towncred. Did you read RC’s Anything uPick? Sakura Hana won that by bussing her entire team and Porkens looked like he was a gonner. I can agree about Prof since I think he started it but as for those who jumped on, idk

Right but what I was saying is that if you're allied with Porkens/RR pre-flip, you know that flipping Porkens confirms RR as scum because RR claimed that their role was the fake part of Porkens' role.

Fri Dec 30, 2022 4:59 am

Oops we got another scum. Turns out my theory of not being able to clear someone as one or the other scumteam works again.

Fri Dec 30, 2022 5:02 am

I think it gets a little harder from here as I think everyone is reasonably cleared from at least one scumteam, yeah? I use the word cleared not as mod confirmed, but based on my reads of how other players have played. Meuh's flip really helps here, as they produced a few attunements that we now know are a true thing.

Fri Dec 30, 2022 5:12 am

In post 8123, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow wrote:PPF bothers me. I believe PPF is town by play. I think there are several valid reasons that make PPF unlikely to be scum. They're certainly not Lunar.

The MMR result and surrounding play is concerning. I still think the most sensible explanation for MMR's behaviour on D2 is effectively a guilty result on PPF.

I don't know how to feel more confident about PPF than I do and I'm concerned about that.

I'll be honest, I am concerned about PPF avoiding every correct flip except MMR. I was thinking about that overnight after PPF's attempt with just a few hours ago to sway the elimination off of Ydrasse, which we now know to be correct.

BUT

We know they aren't lunar aligned.

I am curious why they avoided the Rat elimination, when Rat was confirmed scum.

Fri Dec 30, 2022 5:18 am

I agree with most of that regarding CSF, except for Rat's fakeclaim. I think Rat's fakeclaim is NAI for CSF, as Rat already proved that the Solar scumteam was willing to tie themselves together with a fakeclaim, so CSF could be part of that. But I think your points about Mueh and Mathblade's roles are more convincing and I don't think CSF is scum anymore.

Fri Dec 30, 2022 5:23 am

In post 8124, Enchant wrote:
In post 8122, T-Bone wrote:I think it gets a little harder from here as I think everyone is reasonably cleared from at least one scumteam, yeah? I use the word cleared not as mod confirmed, but based on my reads of how other players have played. Meuh's flip really helps here, as they produced a few attunements that we now know are a true thing.
No, Meuh flip is harmful impact and gived us only fact that PPF is not Lunar.

Also unwmd's attunement post-mortem. Even though PPF is the only living player, I think information that is confirmed is valuable. It was also a bad kill for scum tbh. Magician and I are more optimal kills imo from a controlling information standpoint, Magician doubly so since they are townread a lot. Meuh's role is fairly harmless without the flip since they are the only ones in the town with evidence attunement isn't a made up fakeclaim.

Fri Dec 30, 2022 5:29 am

In post 8134, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow wrote:I don't think Enchant is scum. I think his content and engagement with the game yesterday looked a lot like town. I don't think this is concrete. If Enchant is still around at endgame, he's someone to reevaluate. But I'm not interested in eliminating him.

If that was a response to me I don't think Enchant is scum either?

I need to look at my reads again but off the top of my head via townreads and PoE I don't have many options. If I hold onto all my townreads...I have PPF as the last solar and Prof as the last lunar. I don't feel 100% confident here because I was wrong on Rat being town, so odds are I have another incorrect townread somewhere. And I don't even feel confident there as I felt like I had a good reason to eliminate Prof as a lunar suspect...

I'm working on summarizing my thoughts though.

Fri Dec 30, 2022 5:35 am

Can someone help me out and summarize claims that haven't been flipped? I have the Mod's ISO open so I am set on flipped players.

Fri Dec 30, 2022 5:39 am

In post 8137, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow wrote:And now here's where my current team PoE sits:

Solar: {Firebringer, PPF}
Lunar: {professotic, T-Bone}

Enchant can in theory fill either team slot but I don't think he's scum.

I think we're on the same page though I think FB is town (though I recognize thinking all of FB, Enchant, CSF, and Magician as town really limits my options)

Fri Dec 30, 2022 5:44 am

That's helpful thanks. Prof also has some sort of night commute thing but I don't know that they claimed a role name.

I've claimed VT so has Magician and Enchant. Do we know if FB has a claim?

Fri Dec 30, 2022 6:13 am

You're the best Enchant

Fri Dec 30, 2022 6:56 am

Okay summarized my thoughts here.

Spoiler: Reads 5.0

Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:00 am

In post 8154, Past Present Future wrote:I really did think Ydrasse was going to flip town. T-Bone why did you unvote MMR?

To give them more time to explain themselves. From my perspective one of two things could be true. a) they were claiming real results b) they fakeclaimed and fakeclaimed really badly to get rid of a non-threatening slot. I had a hard time believing the second (and still do to some extent).

Even though I unvoted I never let up on the pressure on that slot. I pressured MMR like crazy. I claimed intent to hammer when it was clear MMR couldn't explain themselves. My intent to hammer was so MMR could post final reads. They never did and someone else hammered while I was asleep.

Now, why have you avoided voting correctly on any day phase?

Why did you avoid the Porkens vote?

Why did you avoid Rat despite Rat being confirmed scum?

Why did you try to derail the correct lim yesterday onto a mislim on me with very little time left in the day phase?

Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:05 am

In post 8153, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow wrote:Or, when placed in context: does T-Bone let this claim happen?
I believe professotic would.

Do you want my input on this, or would that be too much WIFOM?

Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:18 am

In post 8165, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow wrote:
In post 8164, T-Bone wrote:
In post 8153, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow wrote:Or, when placed in context: does T-Bone let this claim happen?
I believe professotic would.
Do you want my input on this, or would that be too much WIFOM?
I would very much appreciate your input on this!

Okay, so the short answer is, no, not if it was a fake claim. The long answer will require us to make some assumptions, namely that I am scum with MMR and Ydrasse. Ydrasse isn't posting as much as MMR was, so in terms of who would be valuable to the scumteam, that's MMR. We're not giving up his slot on a fakeclaim. We're also not fakeclaiming on PPF, who poses no threat to our team. They hard townread Ydrasse, and didn't have enough town equity to lead a lim on MMR or I. PPF only becomes a threat if a townblock forms with them, mastina-slot, yume-slot, and then someone like you or Mathblade to lead it. I think if you believe nothing else from this post, know that I don't view players who rely on metareads as a threat, so there's no way if I had input onto this plan that I allow it. Yes I bus and Ydrasse would have been a prime bus candidate, but Ydrasse is only valuable as a bus candidate if MMR is still alive for this hypothetical scumteam I'm not on.

Now if we believed PPF was Solar scum? Then I'd like to think we'd have a better plan than what MMR came up with. But even then, in multiball I don't value eliminating the other scumteam early, so I don't know for sure, but there's a chance if I believed we confirmed scum from the other team, we sit on the info until we need it to save ourselves. IE the town seriously starts to consider one of us as scum down the line, so that's when MMR drops the bombshell that PPF is scum.

I usually think a lot in games how I would play it much better if I were scum, and that's easy for me to do as town, but less easy for you to believe when you don't know my alignment. I honestly think had I rolled scum this game the team I was on would be in a much better position than the teams find themselves in now.

Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:20 am

In post 8166, Past Present Future wrote:
In post 8162, T-Bone wrote:
In post 8154, Past Present Future wrote:I really did think Ydrasse was going to flip town. T-Bone why did you unvote MMR?
To give them more time to explain themselves. From my perspective one of two things could be true. a) they were claiming real results b) they fakeclaimed and fakeclaimed really badly to get rid of a non-threatening slot. I had a hard time believing the second (and still do to some extent).

Even though I unvoted I never let up on the pressure on that slot. I pressured MMR like crazy. I claimed intent to hammer when it was clear MMR couldn't explain themselves. My intent to hammer was so MMR could post final reads. They never did and someone else hammered while I was asleep.

Now, why have you avoided voting correctly on any day phase?

Why did you avoid the Porkens vote?

Why did you avoid Rat despite Rat being confirmed scum?

Why did you try to derail the correct lim yesterday onto a mislim on me with very little time left in the day phase?
Don’t bs me, you tried to mislim Mastina when I tried hard to save her.
Math wanted to wait too and I didn’t vote furtive.
Who hammered furtive? Oh yeah Enchant and Magician voted the unCC’d doc claim so get rekt.

I must be scum since I didn’t anticipate Enchant would hammer obviously. Great detective work there, Sherlock.

Why don’t we bring up all of the VCS so you can stop with the bs shading?

I really did think Ydrasse would flip town buy I guess my not having a crystal ball somehow makes me scum?

I didn't bring up Furtive at all, considering you were correctly not voting him at the end of the day phase. I also did not bring up Mastina or Meuh.

More importantly, you also didn't answer why you didn't vote correctly on Porkens and Rat. Considering we're all saying you are their partner, it's pretty strange you would straight up not answer why you didn't think they were scum. Especially Rat since Rat was confirmed scum after Porkens' flip.

Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:22 am

In post 8170, Enchant wrote:PPF point actually valid: They can't be scum with Ydrasse.

I still think that was whiteknight thou.

I agree, I just thought if I left that out of my questions, that would be misleading framing on my part. You can see though that's the only point PPF chose to address, they didn't even address Porkens or Rat in their response to me.

Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:23 am

Interesting that PPF chose to blame Enchant and Junko(Magicianslot) for hammering Furtive for claiming doc when we now know Furtive was VT.

Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:32 am

Scarf is also town. So you tried to keep one town from being limmed by getting another town mislimmed.

That still doesn't answer why in the face of Rat being confirmed scum that you didn't engage or vote there. So, why? I think this is now the 3rd time I asked.

Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:57 am

You were willing to vote Rat on Day 1 when we didn't have confirmation they were scum, but unwilling later when we did have confirmation that they were scum. It is true, when momentum shifted towards Rat later in the day as a counterwagon to Mastina you jumped on. I will grab the relevant VCs because I think it still supports my theory. I'll start with the one you mentioned.

Spoiler: VC 1.0.18

It is true PPF was voting correctly here. I think there are mitigating circumstances that makes this VC less important than the day we actually limmed Rat. First, this is not the first Mastina counterwagon PPF was on. If PPF!scum, they have whiteknighted Mastina and have no choice but to vote her every counterwagon. Which she does. Second, PPF is not driving this wagon.

In post 2230, Past Present Future wrote:VOTE: RadicalRat

This is the vote PPF makes. Now I searched their ISO before and after this vote. You can look but at no point does PPF say they are suspicious of Rat, or trying to pushing Rat as scum. I used the search terms 'Radical Rat' and 'RR' to see, and the only time 'Radical Rat' shows up is in quotations. So I think its safe to say PPF was doing this to counterwagon their Mastina townread, rather than because they don't know Rat's alignment. On Day 1, with no one pressuring the other Solar slot, it's not unreasonable to think that PPF!scum would vote Rat to keep their reads consistent. Is Nancy the type of player to townread their scumbuddies? I don't know but I'd guess based on her flippant responses the answer to that is no.

Just to not take the VCs further out of context, I am going to quote them in chronological order starting from VC 1.0.13. I'm choosing to do so because that is the first time a counterwagon to Mastina appeared. I'm defining a counterwagon as 3 or more votes. My thesis is this to explain scum!PPF's day 1 behavior. They were so invested in the Mastina townread, that they had no choice but to vote every counterwagon to Mastina. This mostly applies to the Nancy head I think ftr.

Spoiler: VC 1.0.13

First Mastina counterwagon. We don't know Scarf's alignment but I suspect town.

Spoiler: VC 1.0.15

In 1.0.14 they stay on Scarf. Two VCs later they appear on another counterwagon.

Spoiler: VC 1.0.19

In 1.0.16 they unvote, until 1.0.18 when they are on Rat. Curiously in the immediate next VC 1.0.19 they are back on Scarf. This undermines PPF's point that they were willing to lim Rat. Why not keep Rat as the most viable counterwagon to Mastina?

Spoiler: VC 1.0.22

PPF stays on Scarf from 1.0.19 to 1.0.21, until we end the day compromising on Bunnyonce.

Past Present Future wrote:If you’re seriously going to use VCAs against me than don’t be selective, bring up ALL of them including the ones that exonerate me but you won’t because God forbid, you look at any facts contradicting it right?

I DID the work to make my assertion PPF. I looked at the facts of the Day 1 VCs to draw my conclusions. I did not cheery pick the VCs nor did I claim you did something you did not do, or claim you did not do something you did.

While I think it is reasonable for town!PPF to think I'm scum, to claim I didn't do the work to make my assertions about your voting history is not reasonable. If you're town then I've still done the work I've just come to the wrong conclusion. But you're discrediting me instead of helping me to understand why I've come to the wrong conclusion, sarcastically calling me sherlock and going 'but we all voted wrong'. When I asked why you didn't vote either Solar player correctly, including when one of them (Rat) was confirmed scum, you don't address the point.

If you're town, help me understand why you didn't answer the question in a direct and honest manner? What does town!PPF have to gain from that?

Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:59 am

In post 8184, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow wrote:
In post 8181, Enchant wrote:Pressuring PPF is funny but we want lunar.
Yes we'll get there
PPF is here though and this does need sorting as well
And a lot of it has to do with how Lunar has behaved

PPF is here and Prof is not.

The thread will explode once Prof joins in.

Fri Dec 30, 2022 8:02 am

Anyway I think the game's evidence points to PPF as Solar and Prof to Lunar. I'm gonna step away for now to not flood the thread with a back and forth with PPF. I've laid out what I think. I know that there's a fight brewing with Prof on the horizon.

Just one point of clarification. For those of you who think this, we think it's more important to flip Lunar or Solar today why?

Fri Dec 30, 2022 8:07 am

Right, but that's only a part of my read holistically.

For point of reference Nancy, and this will help you either after I flip town or in future games we are town together. I ask you why you did something because I want to know, and to help me form my reads.

I don't ask you why you do something so I can make a gotcha post in response.

Sort of OOC:
Is it accurate that you're anticipating me going 'gotcha' and that's why you are quicker to deflect rather than answer directly? Think about this post game, I think it'll help us both understand one another in future games. I really do enjoy playing with you and hope that my relentless questioning doesn't give you a different impression.

Fri Dec 30, 2022 8:09 am

In post 8195, Past Present Future wrote:Exactly! So I put them at risk of getting limmed when it made no sense to do so if I’m a buddy but when I could have voted them for towncred I didn’t, so that makes me scum why again?

For what it's worth when I looked back at the VCs I did notice you had voted Rat or Day 1 before I posted about your voting history. So I'm not dismissing your point. You are telling the truth about your actions and I'm not disputing that.

Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:13 am

I actually think Nancy is clearly explaining her thought process on Ydrasse? I'm not sure what isn't clear to you DDS

Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:14 am

Which, we're certain that they aren't aligned because PPF can't be Lunar. So regardless of PPF's alignment its an earnest thought process imo. Unless you think they are trying to mask how the scum PT works, since scum!PPF would know.

Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:53 am

VOTE: Professotic

Eagerly awaiting that 1v1.

Fri Dec 30, 2022 11:12 am

I'd be remiss not to point out that I don't think Prof had much to do with the wagon beyond being the first to switch their vote. I really think Junko and I did the pleading to get the Porkens elimination through at the end of that day.

Fri Dec 30, 2022 12:36 pm

I'll be honest the full claim doesn't look great to me. I'm gonna sit with my thoughts for a bit though.

Fri Dec 30, 2022 5:01 pm

In post 8221, T-Bone wrote:I'll be honest the full claim doesn't look great to me. I'm gonna sit with my thoughts for a bit though.

I think there is no incentive for CSF to clarify that they've done part of a fakeclaim now, when we've basically decided CSF is town for reasons related to Mueh and Math's role flip, unless they are telling the truth. It would be simpler for scum!CSF to not question it.

Sat Dec 31, 2022 4:00 am

In post 8256, Past Present Future wrote:Also explain to me why I kill Meuh here and why last night? Can you do that? She already checked me the night Math died and there’s no way Math wouldn’t be dead noon 1 if Titus were scum here.

We 100% knew Math was deathtunnelled on us and would likely vig us, so you’re going to argue I suppose that me and Titus are complete fucking idiots and were totally okay with that?

I'll be honest, I don't think there's a lot of utility for scum!PPF to kill Mueh. Meuh already outted their attunement, there is nothing else to fear from that perspective. I don't think Meuh thought PPF was scum. But I also don't know if Nancy is the type of scum player to prioritize keeping people who don't scumread her alive or not. Maybe she prioritizes killing PRs. That would also answer for the Math kill. (Plus that we wanted Math to shoot her slot)

Unless someone can recall meuh hinting at another part of their ability? I could see a situation where scum!PPF fears a secondary effect.

Sat Dec 31, 2022 4:01 am

In post 8288, Past Present Future wrote:@T-Bone can you please help me find that Mastina post you quoted? because I believe there’s three of them discussing how the Yume interaction debunks it?

I’m just so frustrated rn because I know it isn’t me but don’t know how to prove it? :/

I'll look for it, but one Mastina post isn't going to convince anyone...though I concede it'll be easier to parse knowing her alignment now.

Sat Dec 31, 2022 4:05 am

In post 7050, T-Bone wrote:
In post 3191, mastina wrote:
In post 3169, MathBlade wrote:
In post 3168, mastina wrote:Oh so the scumclaim of a role was an actual scumclaim not a Troll, reaction test, or joke???

...WELL THEN.
VOTE: MMR
Can you explain here please?

I don’t see how you get here.
Well, it's both mechanics and play.

Play can be chalked up to mistake from ONE player, but from THREE players, ESPECIALLY mechanics-oriented players, it is so borderline unacceptable that it is genuinely an instant elimination.

Let's start with the Neapolitan half. A Neapolitan is at its strongest by targeting VTs, to generate hard-innocents. And since we have VTs in the game per the D1 flip, that means that MMR would know that they should try to get innocent results.

The D1 elimination proved that there are VTs, but you know what also happened just before the elimination?

...Not one, but TWO different players effectively hard-townslipped a claim which essentially hinted at being VTs.
Scarfmanship spelled this out the night I claimed, that T-Bone and Enchant believing that their role PMs gave no hint to alignment basically hard-spewed them as VTs.

A Neapolitan, with not one but TWO players that essentially accidentally hardclaimed VT, chose to investigate NEITHER if them???

I can get some random player making that mistake.
But Ircher is, infamously, a mechanics-oriented player. Do you think Ircher with a Neapolitan sees two players who basically hardclaimed VT and decides to investigate neither of them?

RH9 from my understanding is ALSO mechanics-oriented. I've never actually played with him to verify, but seeing how he's literally THE most prolific user in mafia discussion, discussing the mechanics of roles, I'm pretty damn certain that he is a mechanics-oriented player, and I don’t buy him making the Mistake, either.

Roden is the only one who could, but even TODEN is no slouch mechanically.

And you want to tell me that not one, not two, but THREE different holders of the role which is mechanics oriented made a night action choice that is woefully suboptimal?

It's beyond improbable.

It's not like Neapolitan is a gimmicky role. It's one of the most common Normal Game roles in existence. So all three of them should know the basic theory of the value of a hard-innocent.

Beyond that? PPF was town enough to be a nightkill option--you don’t try to target players who could be the nightkill, you specifically try to target those who will not be. This doesn’t contradict the above, either since neither T-Bone nor Enchant were likely nightkills ESPECIALLY given being vanilla. Even if they thought ONE VT would be nightkilled, they would know at least one would live--and let's be real, mo scum kills Enchant ever. So they could safely target Enchant.

PPF was more town than scum yesterday.
So being so, which alignment has more reason to effectively rolecop them? (Neapolitan is a hybrid between Cop and Rolecop.)
It ain't town.

Scum had more reasons to rolecop PPF than town did.

AND INE MORE THING--MathBlade was a PR claim, but why not target Dingle Dangle Scarecrow? MY being unable to target either makes sense (it'd potentially hard-clear them), but MMR's role has no such justification--why not check DDS???

This all is play. You can attempt to write it off as a display of absolute sheer incompetence if you'd like, a collective brain shutdown from all three players who should know better. (Roden literally got mislimmed in part thanks to targeting a PPF like player N1. So to make the same sort of mistake twice is even less likely.)

But then we get into the actual role part.

Namely, how the two halves are highly redundant.
ANY result that is successful is an automatic innocent, thanks to Loyal.
Neapolitan is a role which generates innocents in of itself, by targeting VTs.
By stacking the two, it becomes effectively a more powerful cop, NOT ONLY learning if someone is town, BUT ALSO if they're a VT or a PR.
If it were just Neapolitan I'd believe it.
If it were just Loyal with a confirming result of literally any sort, I would believe it. (Checker, Motion Detector, etc. Literally any role which gets feedback at the end of a night, which is not already innately one of the strongest investigative roles in the game the way Neapolitan is.)

Beyond all that?

I don’t believe that the town has a Loyal Neapolitan ON TOP OF the revealing mechanic shown at the end of D1 ON TOP OF my role, which theirs is basically a stronger version of.

My role just checks for attunement, which is a possible indicator of alignment and potentially reveals role or VTs;
Theirs gets outright confirmation of alignment AND role. They're literally claiming a stronger version of my role, which was even able to act a night sooner than me! (BTW free piece of NRG advice: the NRG tends to balance odd/even night roles by putting the weaker one FIRST, not second. Not always, but as a way to keep the power down.)

And then there are two other reasons for why I think that's a mechical scumclaim, but I'll finish with a final non-mechanics one:
I don’t buy MMR being blocked by scum;
I don’t buy PPF being an unclaimed ascetic;
MMR were in the PoE already for scum;
PPF are town enough to be basically conftown.
If they're trying to force a noncommittal guilty where after PPF flip town they go "Oh I guess we were roleblocked", well, I call bullshit. So, because PPF is never scum here, if there WAS a 1v1, by default, MMR would be the scum within.

And to reiterate, I have two extra mechanics reasons for doubting the claim beyond what I've shared.
Maybe a play reason or two, too.
This one, Nancy?

Sat Dec 31, 2022 4:05 am

In post 8291, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow wrote:Meuh needed to die (or otherwise be tampered with) to avoid anyone else from being cleared as Solar

Good point I forgot about that

Sat Dec 31, 2022 4:06 am

Either way I think we're not getting anything out of Prof, time to flip. We can deal with whether PPF is scum or not tomorrow.

Sat Dec 31, 2022 5:50 pm

E-2, we can save us from the inevitable and flip the slot.

Wed Jan 04, 2023 9:23 am

Very surprised by the flip. That's unfortunate from a get rid of Lunar perspective. I'm about 50/50 on whether PPF is the last Solar or if I have an incorrect town read.

Wed Jan 04, 2023 3:42 pm

I think you're right.

Thu Jan 05, 2023 11:11 am

In post 8411, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow wrote:
In post 8408, Past Present Future wrote:
In post 8405, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow wrote:I'm pretty certain it's against the rules to discuss reasons for replacing out?
Where is that against the rules? I’m pretty sure it isn’t - not on MS anyway.
I was pretty sure this was a thing but I now can't find it

Yo T-Bone could you weigh in on this pls

I can't weigh in on rules when I am a player.

Thu Jan 05, 2023 11:23 am

In post 8438, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:I agree that Magician and T-Bone are not Solar. If you remove me from the Solar list because of no NK that first noon, the list of Solar is really just:

PPF
Enchant
Firebringer

I think this is correct.

Thu Jan 05, 2023 11:58 am

Like for me I'm weighing whether I want to finally find out what MMR'S deal was, or trust in thinking Nancy has been town enough. And that also means saying goodbye to a town read I've held for the whole game.

Thu Jan 05, 2023 12:30 pm

You'll have to explain that one.

Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:15 pm

In post 8451, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow wrote:
In post 8449, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow wrote:I ALSO think that if CSF were a Lunar Guardian, it would have been a very large risk on both N1 and N3 to not target Ydrasse.
You mean this?
I feel as though Ydrasse is someone Lunar needed to be worried about getting shot by MathBlade particularly
CSF targeting Meuh instead of Ydrasse would leave Ydrasse vulnerable to that shot in return for saving... a townie?

Okay but scum projecting Ydrasse so that they would survive a dayvig would just lead to their immediate elimination. I don't think this is a good point. In this scenario you'd probably protect MMR as the stronger slot anyway.

Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:12 pm

You're almost making the case that DDS and Magician are scum together though?

Fri Jan 06, 2023 2:58 am

In post 8459, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:Because Scarf's read on DDS just evaporated? I hadn't considered that possibility. But for them to be scum together, Scarf was bussing his buddy and risked losing a buddy and getting his faction vanilla-ized

Right but that's what I'm saying. Why are you making the argument that the read just evaporated? What's the purpose?

Fri Jan 06, 2023 3:00 am

In post 8462, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:Firebringer didn't really engage with MMR/PPF on day 2 at all

Neither did Ydrasse really, come to think of it

Okay but Ydrasse was aligned with MMR. Firebringer maybe isn't??

I'm just really confused why you're making relations between players we either know or suspect aren't aligned?

Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:20 am

In post 8471, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:
In post 8467, T-Bone wrote:
In post 8459, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:Because Scarf's read on DDS just evaporated? I hadn't considered that possibility. But for them to be scum together, Scarf was bussing his buddy and risked losing a buddy and getting his faction vanilla-ized
Right but that's what I'm saying. Why are you making the argument that the read just evaporated? What's the purpose?
Because my original point from the previous days - "Scarf really believed and pushed DDS scum, and therefore cannot be Lunar" - takes a hit

Well so remember that the Lunar team knew that if DDS was flipped on Day 1, they would be vanillaized.

Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:23 am

In post 8472, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:
In post 8468, T-Bone wrote:
In post 8462, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:Firebringer didn't really engage with MMR/PPF on day 2 at all

Neither did Ydrasse really, come to think of it
Okay but Ydrasse was aligned with MMR. Firebringer maybe isn't??

I'm just really confused why you're making relations between players we either know or suspect aren't aligned?
He maybe isn't but I'm not entirely sure. It's scummy to not engage with that 1v1, and this particular scumminess is more likely to come from Lunar, because if MMr is Lunar & PPF is town, why wouldn't Solar egg on this 1v1

Well Rat did egg on the 1v1, I'm pretty sure they were on the MMR is scum lying train early. In fact in the VC you quoted, Solar was on both sides of the 1v1, while Lunar was off the wagon entirely. (of the flipped players). Curiously it wasn't Solar really egging on the idea that MMR had a guilty claim. That was originally pointed out by...DDS I think?

Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:25 am

In post 8477, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow wrote:
In post 3654, Scarfmanship wrote:Daily reminder that PPF's spam posting on the topic of me is a diversion from the fact that they have NO reads and will NOT make reads because that would give town information about who their partners are.

Also PPF is town, source: Dude trust me, just let me use my solar rolecop ability real quick tonight and then make up some fakeclaim tomorrow.

I was rr reading scarf's iso to see if the slot did have any associaives ( last night I was saying to klick that I town read all three slots, which is actually quite unusual, but also that none of them did anything massively out of a good scum range, but I didn't scum read barely any posts - early scarf seemed scumny but really towned it up re the Mmr/PPF thing) and found this. This has kind of been my problem with the Ppf slot all along: I don't know where they stand.

They've been vaguely softing a scum read in us for like....three phases now, without any follow through? They don't engage with players like drapion about it, it's just kind of....there (I feel it's because they know that I'm scum reading them)

Klick has been saying that they can't see the scum motivation for a lot of their posting, but I struggle to see how their posting moves the game forward.

It's also a Poe thing: it's probably not scarf, if it's t bone or cafe they are playing really, really well, enchant has done some town indicative things....

(Also, scarfs pressure on MMR just means they are not aligned. The claim didn't need a bus in the way that scarf did.)

B.

In post 8478, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow wrote:
In post 3865, Scarfmanship wrote:MMR, you are able to check someone tonight, right?

In post 3884, Scarfmanship wrote:
In post 3730, MMR wrote: Each night, we target a player to see if they're VT or not. If they're not Town or our action doesn't go through, we get no result.
-Rubella

In post 3876, MMR wrote: I can check somebody tonight. I'll probably go with a TR.
-Rubella

In post 3897, Scarfmanship wrote:
In post 3889, MMR wrote:
In post 3884, Scarfmanship wrote:
In post 3730, MMR wrote: Each night, we target a player to see if they're VT or not. If they're not Town or our action doesn't go through, we get no result.
-Rubella

In post 3876, MMR wrote: I can check somebody tonight. I'll probably go with a TR.
-Rubella

I meant SR.
It was a slip of the tongue.
-Rubella
That's not why I made shifty eyes.

In post 3979, Scarfmanship wrote:So this is where I reveal my shifty eyes: MMR, you said you are able to check someone tonight. When you roleclaimed you can check one person each night.

The next phase is not night. It's noon.
To be clear, this exchange happens *while Scarf has his vote on PPF*.

I find Scarf's reasoning here rather tight in hindsight and I don't see why Scarf actively undermines MMR's claim while at the same time not reaching for credit by voting for him, if Scarf is MMR's scumbuddy.

PEdit: I've not read the above post but it's probably good

I too am wondering about this. As I feel like I took the initiative (and voting credit) on MMR early on.

Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:28 am

In post 8491, Past Present Future wrote:It would be extremely helpful to me if you’d link 388 rather than just reference the number. I’m also frustrated with you because I strongly believe Fire can’t be lunar and you pretty much just dismissed that. So if you’re go to ignore what I consider to be an extremely valid take, then I don’t understand why you even care what my opinion is.

So I agree with you that if Fire is scum it is likely not Lunar.

I am also curious about whether you agree or disagree on the following. I think that would help.

- CSF not being Solar
- T-Bone not being Solar
- Magician not being Solar

Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:31 am

In post 8508, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow wrote:on Page 338

As an aside, some people change their forum scroll settings so what is Page 338 to you may not be to them, and we could have avoided a lot of this nonsense if you just linked the first post you wanted discussed.

Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:32 am

*what is the top of page 338 may not be the same

Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:18 am

In post 8529, Past Present Future wrote:@T-Bone and @CSF, I promise to take a detailed look at it later but I’m getting so extremely frustrated with Dangle, I can’t do it now. I think. it’s very distracting and confusing to me how they’re going about it, so what I will do is to just read yours and CSF’s post and skip Dangle’s because their posts are actually interfering with my dyslexic ability to process all of that.

Just step away no big deal.

Fri Jan 06, 2023 11:24 am

In post 8533, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow wrote:
In post 8504, Firebringer wrote:literally no idea.
totally fine with going today but i think im just gonna sheep enchant.
my reads have been very lackluster this game and i don't intend to push them or even attempt. Gonna have town carry me or yall can get rid of me.

Think we in good position to win this without me putting forward effort to solve this.

@Firebringer

I guess I'll be a bit more clear with why I'm specifically asking you the questions I am

I very strongly think that the only possible Solars left are you, PPF, and Enchant. That's a view shared by T-Bone and CSF.

You're one of those players. If you're town, you know one of those players is town. So if you agree with the premise, you're looking at PPF or Enchant as definitely Solar scum.

And from there I'd be really interested in your solve of who it is between them. It'd tell me more about your alignment, and it'd give insight on the other two.

Eh I don't think you should speak for CSF and I. Considering we were both just discussing the possibility that Magician is the solve on the last few pages...

Fri Jan 06, 2023 2:03 pm

In post 8538, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow wrote:
In post 8445, T-Bone wrote:
In post 8438, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:I agree that Magician and T-Bone are not Solar. If you remove me from the Solar list because of no NK that first noon, the list of Solar is really just:

PPF
Enchant
Firebringer
I think this is correct.
I said that based on this post (and the quoted post by CSF)

I don't feel like I'm misrepresenting you by saying your possibilities for Solar are those three?

I thought you and CSF were discussing the possibility of Magician being Lunar

My bad we're talking past each other

Fri Jan 06, 2023 2:04 pm

Tbh my pet urge to flip Magician has been rising the last few pages

Fri Jan 06, 2023 7:16 pm

Who said anything about a policy lim?

Sat Jan 07, 2023 5:58 pm

Okay question for everyone but PPF.

Did MMR have a real result? Gut reaction yes or no?

Sun Jan 08, 2023 4:58 am

In post 8600, Past Present Future wrote:I apologize for my outburst. I understand that people need to look at every player who’s left but it’s just really pisses me off that lying scum’s bs botched fake claim continues to be brought up when I strongly suspect that not everyone pushing it is town here.

If anyone has actual issues with my play, I’ll be more than happy to respond to and allay any concerns about me being scum here. I’m not.

And I really do suspect Dangle because Prof who got MMR role voted for them and they’re the ones who keep pushing MMR lies as valid and I just really want to scream.

Okay but you think I'm town so give people space to answer my question, please.

Sun Jan 08, 2023 4:59 am

In post 8613, Enchant wrote:
In post 8609, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow wrote:Bella wanted to refresh her own grasp of the MMR claim situation, so we took some time to look again properly at it.

VOTE: Past Present Future

We both feel rather confident upon discussing it together that
what MMR had was a 'vanilla' result on PPF from their passive ability
, which would mean that
PPF is lying about their role
.

Case for this coming up. I'd appreciate some eyes on this.
But "They saw PPF as Beloved Princess" is kinda possible case too?

Did PPF claim BEFORE MMR? Wait i really don't remember.

Good point, I hadn't thought of that.

Sun Jan 08, 2023 4:59 am

In post 8643, T-Bone wrote:
In post 8600, Past Present Future wrote:I apologize for my outburst. I understand that people need to look at every player who’s left but it’s just really pisses me off that lying scum’s bs botched fake claim continues to be brought up when I strongly suspect that not everyone pushing it is town here.

If anyone has actual issues with my play, I’ll be more than happy to respond to and allay any concerns about me being scum here. I’m not.

And I really do suspect Dangle because Prof who got MMR role voted for them and they’re the ones who keep pushing MMR lies as valid and I just really want to scream.
Okay but you think I'm town so give people space to answer my question, please.

Dangle please give everyone else space too.

Sun Jan 08, 2023 5:01 am

FB gut reaction, do you think MMR had a real result?

Sun Jan 08, 2023 5:03 am

Nancy, did Prof ever claim what that ability was?

Sun Jan 08, 2023 5:07 am

In post 8649, Enchant wrote:Just theory.

Assuming you are PPF-Scum. Someone claims Loyan Neapolitan result on you.

... Do you try to fakeclaim something in response?

I think honestly...I would try to fakeclaim something to explain the result away, rather than accusing them of lying, because the most likely outcome from doing that is a 1v1. It's kinda weird we haven't flipped PPF, but this game has just been weird overall.

Sun Jan 08, 2023 11:06 am

In post 8656, Past Present Future wrote:@T-Bone all I recall Prof saying was that he inherited MMR role but couldn’t use it due to lunars having a factional kill and Dangle’s driving me to drink by refusing to engage in that.

I know I was hoping you could ISO dive for us and see if they ever elaborated.

Mon Jan 09, 2023 10:41 am

VOTE: Magician

I think I've been dissuaded against PPF as the last Solar scum. GG if they are, Nancy has me.

I'm still suffering from too many town reads. DDS can't be solar, but also I don't think they are lunar. I don't think CSF or Enchant are scum, I'm not convinced FB is scum. I'm not totally convinced Magician is scum, but that's literally the entire playerlist, so I need to drop a vote somewhere.

Here are the small things that are tipping me to Magician. The first is Scarf's weirdness around the attunement aspect of Meuh's role, now that I know that slot is claiming VT. I really thought Scarf was picking up on something based on their power role, and in hindsight it looks bad because to me, their knowledge of attunement came out of nowhere. The more I think about Junko, the more how I think I was just persuaded by their agreeability. The more I think about Magician, the more I think they are just occupying a non-offensive blindspot in this playerlist. I suggested I wanted to vote Magician a few days ago and Magician coming back with 'why do you want to policy me?' pings me as odd, because I have internally been mulling over whether they are scum or not. Maybe that's a reaction to other players ruling them out as Lunar and/or calling them town but I don't know.

I'm just forcing myself to commit to a vote with 2 days to go, and see where we go from here.

Mon Jan 09, 2023 10:42 am

In post 8681, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow wrote:Yeah but now I have another 'why the hell was the claim made ' issue!

In post 8682, Enchant wrote:ugh 2 days or so?

And all i have is "Aaaaaaaaaaaa" on random players

I feel both of these though LOL

Mon Jan 09, 2023 10:43 am

With the above said, I'll hammer FB if it comes to it.

Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:45 pm

I know which posts I just hadn't have time to grab them.

Tue Jan 10, 2023 5:02 pm

I'm here to hammer if you want.

Tue Jan 10, 2023 5:02 pm

VOTE: Firebringer

Fri Jan 13, 2023 5:51 am

What a bad kill DDS is confirmed town.

Fri Jan 13, 2023 5:54 am

Eh there could be enough paranoia of CSF in a LiLo situation. dDS is mod confirmed.

Fri Jan 13, 2023 5:55 am

Let me mock scum in peace

Fri Jan 13, 2023 5:56 am

In post 8718, Enchant wrote:For reference, after Firebringer flip, i do think there's 4 lunars.

I don't. Why?

Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:07 am

I mean if the game is going after today then sure. I think the last Solar is basically confirmed now in light of Firebringer's flip.

I was surprised he flipped Lunar. I thought I'd he did flip it would have been solar.

I think the content of his role is very interesting, in that it's a role that manipulates what phase we are in.

It looks like a natural counterpart to the role PPF has claimed.

The one thing I want to recheck is the design of Porkens and MMR's roles before I 100% commit.

Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:09 am

Although I guess potentially you could see Porkens role, as a fake protective, as a counterpart to CSF's real protective role.

Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:11 am

Shit I think you're right, Enchant. Which means DDS is not clear either.

Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:15 am

I'm not saying I want to atm

But what is the implication if we flip you now, Nancy? What happens to the game with your claimed princess role?

Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:20 am

No it would be, FB declined to change the phase we were in.

Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:21 am

FB likely chose to get another use of a factional ability

Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:26 am

Man what a puzzling conundrum.

If we think there's another Lunar because of recruitment then we have to either hit them now or flip PPF to skip night to prevent the Lunar win.

But if PPF is not Solar then doing that gives them the win. But if PPF is solar then town wins if we do that (and the roleclaim is true)

Of course there could be no more Lunar and FB didn't change the phase because he just didn't care since his faction lost. In which case we'd be talking ourselves into a mislim for no reason.

On second thought I take it back you made a great kill Solar. We would not be entertaining Lunar still being alive if DDS was killed lololol

Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:34 am

In post 8739, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow wrote:On one hand, it feels incorrect to me that we would correctly eliminate 5/8 times and that leave us in 3-1-1

On the other hand, Lunar seems blatantly less powerful than Solar with the info we have. The Lunar factional abilities would have to be rather strong without a fourth Lunar for it to make sense

I think aiming for Solar today is correct regardless

I think 4-1 against Solar is most likely but it's worth exploring the other possibility.

Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:38 am

I can think of a bunch of things that are powerful that aren't recruitments for lunar.

1. Maybe they just had a failed kill or kills.
2. Total immunity to night actions
3. Mass lightning rod ability
4. Fake flip for a player who died
5. Some other crazy mess with night actions ability

So like the answer doesn't have to be delayed kills or recruitment for their factional ability.

Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:44 am

Spoiler: Scarf Posts

These posts are why I voted Magician yesterday. I thought Scarf was claiming a PR at the time. Now that that slot has since claimed VT, I'm wondering if these sets of posts were TMI.

These posts started after Meuh's slot outted the existence of attunement and both myself and Enchant claimed to not have attunement in their Role PMs. We since learned then that no townies had that information in their PMs. So was Scarf putting info they had because they were scum and using it for town credit?

Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:44 am

Somehow I broke the first quote, phone posting ftw

Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:55 am

If it's 4-1 then we can't let PPF get to 3p it's bad tactically. If it's 3-1-1 then it's better to let them get their to thwart solar but that gives Lunar the win.

I think tactically because we question whether PPF is solar or not...they might be the best move because of PPF is town then we skip night phase. Of course that leaves 4p Kingmaker if it's 3-1-1 right now. I almost want to say fuck it, if the game is still 3-1-1 somehow I'm not sure what we do to get out of it.

But I think either getting PPF because they are solar or triggering beloved princess to skip night is our best play. Whatever is left among us town doesn't need night phases anymore.

Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:58 am

That might be me getting the phase names backwards again

Fri Jan 13, 2023 11:04 am

What?

Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:10 pm

It's unlikely I vote Enchant. Strongest town read.

Sat Jan 14, 2023 2:54 pm

In post 8810, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow wrote:
In post 8777, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow wrote:
In post 3451, Past Present Future wrote:
In post 3444, MathBlade wrote:
In post 3440, Past Present Future wrote:
In post 3435, MathBlade wrote:
In post 3430, Yume wrote:That said, if mastina is scum, then one of her 'townreads' should have been killed. The fact that none of us were is a point in her favor.
That only applies in singleball.

The bigger question is why prof died?
That flip actually clears me because you should know from Heroes’ that scum!me never kills Prof here.
And I only think one scum team can kill a night.
So I’m half cleared for now, the other half will come later if I live long enough.

In post 3643, Past Present Future wrote:Scarf still voting me when I am already half clear and will be fully clear later is hella suss. If I somehow get miselimed today, remember that.

In post 3648, Past Present Future wrote:
In post 3646, MathBlade wrote:
In post 3643, Past Present Future wrote:Scarf still voting me when I am already half clear and will be fully clear later is hella suss. If I somehow get miselimed today, remember that.
When hypothetically would you be “clear” by? {read I doubt this}
Possibly next day phase, I’m hoping.
T-Bone, can you help me work out why these posts happened please?

@ T-Bone & Magician

On another topic entirely, I'm interested in hearing what you both think about these PPF quotes in the context of PPF's actual claimed role.

To me this is Nancy saying they would never kill the players that got killed so this they are town. I don't think she was hinting at an aspect of her role she has since retconned, if that's what you're thinking.

Sun Jan 15, 2023 3:41 am

In post 8821, Klick wrote:I'd like to hear more about the reasons behind your thinking on Enchant-town and how they stand out from your townread on Firebringer
I want to see Enchant-town like you see Enchant-town

Firebringer was more of a gut feel. I thought their predecessor was fine. I disagreed with the scumreads on FA because I thought they were getting themselves baited into the behavior people found scummy rather than expressing the behavior. I thought Firebringer was fine when he entered and wasn't really offensive in his time here.

I don't see Enchant the same way. The first time I pinged Enchant as town was the same interaction I quoted from Scarf earlier. Enchant showed they had the same thought about attunement I did. Maybe they could fake it, idk. But Enchant constantly shows what they are thinking (by constantly I mean in the infrequent times he does content posts). I feel like their mindset has been very similar to mine this game. Admittedly if I am in anyone's pocket I'm in Enchant's.

I know Enchant's ISO is full of a lot of nonsequiter posts. I think to see Enchant as town you'd have to look past that, as that appears to just be Enchant's play style. When Enchant offers thoughts I find that either a) I agree with them or b) I can clearly see where they are coming from. To see an example of this, that came from our recent interaction about a 4th Lunar. I disagreed that there was another Lunar. But as Enchant explained it more I could see where they were coming from. I also recognize that a solar!enchant is incentivized to claim there is still Lunar out there. For me I trust where Enchant is coming from because we have a full game of rapport where I can fall back on even if "enchant is solar" is a logical explanation.

Would I hold onto Enchant is town in 3p? No. I wouldn't hold on to anyone being town in 3p. You don't need to be concerned there.

Sun Jan 15, 2023 3:43 am

I have to make a decision to vote today. I'm getting on a train this afternoon and I have no idea how the cell coverage will be in the Midwest and rockies. Probably spotty at best. I'm between PPF and Magician for reasons that have been stated. I won't stand in the way of an Enchant flip but I can't commit to hammering only because I don't know what my internet connection will be.

Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:51 am

I think the argument being posed is that you're the last Solar though.

Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:32 am

I don't think there's another Lunar tbh and it's not worth trying to deal with because if there is whomever is town is fucked most likely. I also think we limmed correctly too many times for us to now be screwed.

Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:38 am

I'm leaning towards the simplest solution. I don't think there's another Lunar. Whatever their factional abilities were I don't think recruitment was one of them. I don't want PPF in 3p that's too dangerous. It's time to find out whether MMR had something real or not, and if they didn't well at least we don't have to ask that question in 3p. If this is a mislim, I'd rather it happen now so we have another chance at it. If PPF is scum then all I can say is Nancy played an excellent scum game GG.

VOTE: PPF

I'll check the thread as often as I can cell coverage willing. I can change my vote if need be but from what I think we know about this game this is both the correct elimination tactically and an elimination that has a good chance to be correct.

Sun Jan 15, 2023 8:30 am

Yeah I agree but I think we have to commit to something. I think the biggest piece of information we have hanging over this game is resolving MMR's claim. I mean no matter who we flip there's always the danger we flip the wrong player. If the three of you want to lim Enchant instead you can!

Sun Jan 15, 2023 10:07 am

I do see why you want to flip Enchant ftr. I've made the calculation that I think treating this game as 4-1 is the right move. If it's 3-1-1 then we deal with it tomorrow or post game I guess.

Sun Jan 15, 2023 10:09 am

Honestly if PPF is town and triggers both night like phases maybe scum killing one another is our best option in 3-1-1 idk

Sun Jan 15, 2023 10:09 am

I presume if there are two scum left they don't know one another for sure and could do us a favor, even inadvertently

Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:23 am

Thank God Nancy was scum. I did not want this game to continue lolol

Legendary performance Nancy, I believed you were town despite evidence to the contrary.

Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:55 am

Fire is right if you recruited me it would have been a sweep :p

Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:56 am

Anyway I am a big fan of the game design Meg.

I also really enjoyed this game good job everyone.

Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:19 pm

Think this game was good? Head to the 2023 Scummies nomination thread located here and nominate your favorite thing about this game! There are over a dozen categories! Maybe next year's winner happened here?

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