FGO: Mafia in the Lostbelt (Game Over!)

[Servant Alter Ego]

Greetings, Gentlebeings.

[Servant Alter Ego]

I think part of the decision process for figuring out who should get the master upgrade needs to be: what is their master upgrade? How useful is it? How risky to use?

In that spirit, I offer: My master upgrade would allow me to give two other players their own master upgrades. The upgrade would not include revealing their alignment. Usefulness and risk would depend on my townreading skills and luck.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Interesting.

[Servant Alter Ego]

You conveniently have the same ability.

As do I

After I claim mine.

Fine, vote me and I'll make you Master Day 1. Mine is a day phase thing. So we can test it.

Are you townreading Berserker?

[Servant Alter Ego]

I disagree with the notion that giving our strongest town play a confirmed town status.
Then watching them die night 1 as we also lose our upgraded role pm.

If you disagree with that strategy then vote me because I know I am town and I like my upgrade.

Night 2 at the earliest.

[Servant Alter Ego]

he "information" they are missing is information that was and is discussed in thread and they are casually ignoring.

What am I casually ignoring?

The thing you are currently claiming is literally what I claimed when I came in.

It's also what 3 others also claimed as well.

And now after 4 people did that and went "oh, it's a mechanic not a special feature"

you're in here late to the party going "hey guys vote me I have this ability"

So either you're not reading or.... intentional.

So either neutral at best or scum at worst.

I like this post.

[Servant Alter Ego]

I like this post.

spicy take bro

It's a nice start to have a townread before page 4.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Berserker trying to strongarm the master vote out of the gate doesn't give me good feelings either.

Town and scum both had strong reason to go after the master upgrade from the start, especially before we learned it's ubiquitous. I think how to act on that is more of a personality thing than an alignment thing.

[Servant Alter Ego]

I like Berserker's push, and I like Foreigner's reaction to it.

I can see this conflict blowing the thread up for a few days, unfortunately.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Normally I'm all about making sure 1v1s don't clog the entire thread, but in this case we skipped right over RVS and I find that kind of cool.

I landed on this page, but am maybe a little more invested in not wanting the thread clogged with 1v1a.

Alter Ego could be a scum.

Story of my playstyle. I'm not going to go out of my way to extinguish style markers. I'm also not going to defend them on what's essentially a burner account.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Hi guys!

VOTE: Servant Rider

Hello. Any thoughts so far?

[Servant Alter Ego]

Also, 170 looks like even more busywork. Like I agree that Rider's entrance was somewhat lacking, but that just reads to me like scum asking a safe question to an AFK slot. There's not really any need to do it, and I feel like that question is more necessary when Rider is actually shown to be active.

~Reasons~. Though they may be completely fruitless, I feel compelled to pursue them.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Two townreads and two scumreads.
Probably not that easy.

Perhaps you'd like to actually engage me? It's easy to pick at posts in the 3rd person.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Self-meta isn't much to engage with. I want to ask what about your posting is usually scumread for you but that feels like toeing the line too hard for me to feel good about doing it.

Mostly I'm observing reactions to posts without my name on them, and remembering reactions to my posts before I was a somewhat known quantity at ms. It's not at all a case of being scumread by default.

FTR I scumread you for your opener being a request for claims to decide the Master.

I can see that as a legit reaction to the post, regardless of alignment.

Also gut.

I'm in observation mode atm. I'm not sure what will haul me into the game actively, or when it will happen, but I don't think it will be much longer. I thought talking to you might do the trick. Oh well.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Hi everyone! I lean more on the side of using Mastermaker to suss out nebulous reads than on the side of turning someone I already feel really good about into an Innocent Child. So:

VOTE: Alter Ego

Congratulations! You are a sufficiently posi-null lean as to warrant this kind of vote.

I feel icky.

Are you expecting that reactions to this vote will give you insight into my alignment?

[Servant Alter Ego]

I like Berserker's push, and I like Foreigner's reaction to it.

I can see this conflict blowing the thread up for a few days, unfortunately.

Anything specific because that's a little vague and could be why I'm scumreading you. Thankfully hasn't really dominated the thread too much.

Specific about why I like the push and reaction? Because they both make sense coming from town, based on what I can discern of personalities. Of the two, the lesser townread is Berserk, but that may be my reaction to his bombast and my dislike of 1v1s. As the interaction went on, I wanted to just disengage from the game for a while and hope it dissipates.

Why didn't you ask Lancer why they thought you were scum? hmm

To see where they went with it, and if there were signs of opportunism. When they did engage at my invitation, the substance didn't ring terribly opportunistic.

[Servant Alter Ego]

What invitiation?

Post 182

[Servant Alter Ego]

Well, I wasn't expecting a 1v1 this early. Glad it stopped fairly quickly.

You rang, Alter Ego?

I did! Are you caught up? I'm curious about your thoughts on the game.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Am I really going to have to argue with a serious contingent arguing we shouldn't just give it to the towniest player to keep it away from scum?

Saber, your post makes it sound like you have plenty of reads, so do you have any thoughts to share?

If I had to vote right now, I'd be between Archer and Alter Ego. And myself, obviously. But I don't have to vote right now.

How the hell do you have me as one of the towniest players?

[Servant Alter Ego]

I did catch up, yes! I must admit it was a bit of a struggle getting through the 1v1. My cliff notes are kind of as follows:

I like Caster, Alter Ego, Archer, Foreigner. None of them are super strong townreads (in fact I don't really have any super duper strong reads)
I at one point liked Lancer, but that's degraded a fair bit.
I keep thinking I should have a more solid read on Avenger given their number of posts, but I don't. I'll revisit them later.
Berserker, where to start with this one. I don't like his style, certainly. Do I scumread him for it? Not particularly.

Who's left? Saber - that entry post was yuck. Certainly interested to see where they go.
Actually I'll add Assassin to the like list. A bit abrasive, but they're okay.

This should give us a place to start.

I'm having a little bit of trouble attaching Avenger's posts to their avatar in my mind. That's probably a sign that they've not stood out to me enough yet, though I did like their first few posts, the way they entered the game.

I need to solidify a read on Lancer. I'm giving them towncredit for scumreading me, and that's not a good basis for a read.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Am I really going to have to argue with a serious contingent arguing we shouldn't just give it to the towniest player to keep it away from scum?

Saber, your post makes it sound like you have plenty of reads, so do you have any thoughts to share?

If I had to vote right now, I'd be between Archer and Alter Ego. And myself, obviously. But I don't have to vote right now.

How the hell do you have me as one of the towniest players?

I liked that you felt fine admitting that you don't really have your head in the game yet. I liked 78 and 193. A third reason I'll keep to myself.

eh. I'm not really sure what to think of that as a read basis.

Sifting back through, near these posts, I realized I'd confused an Archer post for a Lancer one. I'm going to have to reread tonight and see if the avatars and identities have gelled for me.

[Servant Alter Ego]

@Rider, what do you think of Lancer's 128?

More generally to the thread at large:

re: Caster, I like that they picked up on a hint of fatalism wafting around post 129. The one thing that worries me about them was the townread of me given the relative sparseness of my content.

One thing I like about Avenger's posting is that they sort of picked up on a vibe that I was also getting from a few of Foreigner's early posts - like they'd been worked over and reworded. I don't automatically scumread that feel in posts, but given the pace of the thread when it was posted, it was possibly alignment indicative. However, on balance Foreigner's posts come off town to me although the quest for data and the assumption that a Cabd game can be flavor-solved at turns amuses and exasperates.

[Servant Alter Ego]

It factored into the read degradation. It struck me as odd that they wouldn't just explain why they'd decided to vote Avenger. Even if it was some small reason they had to have SOME reason to swap votes. It got worse as they talked to Assassin.

There's that. But, it also looked like one of those things that would be really easy to just let the townie have as scum as opposed to holding back. Reading back through the thread tonight, it made me wonder if my townread should have softened as much as it did later.

Do you want the master upgrade?

[Servant Alter Ego]

Which of Alter's interactions bother you?

"They" was referring to Archer and Alter Ego. Just read interactions in double-ISO.

I think I see what caught your attention in at least the first few posts, but I'm not sure why you think 2 scum would interact that way.

[Servant Alter Ego]

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. Why wouldn't two scum interact in that way?

It would be an incredible, cringey gaffe. If I were scum, it would be awkward as fuck to see parallelisms like that show up page 1 of the game thread, and I think scum-me would have maintained distance after that.

It didn't register at all, though. I was still trying to sort out and attach personalities to avatars, and I certainly didn't avoid interacting with Archer afterwards.

[Servant Alter Ego]

I don't know what I've done from your perspective, or if it's worth exploring further. I'll leave it for now and see where things go.

Caster, what are your thoughts on Avenger's 267?

[Servant Alter Ego]

Caster, what are your thoughts on Avenger's 267?

It's fine, I guess? I am slightly dubious anyone would've actually thought about whether other players had a seemingly innocuous role PM element.

Last night I got a decent townvibe from the post. This morning, it doesn't sing that tune so strongly to me. Not sure why.

This is a not very organized brain dump.

Rider and Foreigner are my strongest town reads. I dunno if others will agree on Rider, they haven't been discussed all that much so far although players have interacted with them -- mostly via Rider's initiative. The vibes I get from their posts are engaged, curious, self-assured and enjoying the game. None of which are necessarily town-only attitudes, but the mix feels town to me. Add that he's poking at things, but not trying to shape a narrative and that pretty much seals it for now.

Next tier is Caster. I like the way he defends his reads without going overboard or expressing assurance on reads that don't have sufficient basis for stronger stances.

I like the little flares of cynicism from Lancer and I think I just like them as a fellow-inhabitant of the game. Alignment wise I'm not at a solid townread. I feel similarly about Archer and Avenger - they are contributing to my enjoyment of the game. There are townflashes in their posts, but they're not strong townreads.

I feel like Assassin came out a little the better in the interaction with Lancer, though the initial posts didn't do much for me. This is also a lean town. Maybe a little stronger than Archer/Avenger based on that conflict.




Saber ran into flack over how they're approaching choosing who to master-upgrade. I don't really like the approach, but I do like that he sticks with it despite getting flack.

Beast is null. A vote without engagement is meh. 259 and 265 do feel slightly town, and I like that they engaged with Rider's questions. Sometimes 7 posts is enough to form a strong opinion. It's going to take more than that here.

Last night, I realized I was responding to Moon Cancer like their suspicion of me is coming from town. This morning, I'm not trusting that instinctual reaction so much. I'm sitting on a null town take.

My opinion of Berserker hasn't really changed, but since his last posts, other players have put down data and the thread and some now look more town than Berserker on that basis. I should reread them more closely today.

So:

(Rider, Foreigner}
{Caster}
{Assassin}
------------------
{Archer, Avenger, Berserker}
{Lancer, Saber}
{Beast, Moon Cancer)

Rider would be my first choice to give the master upgrade if they wanted it. The dashed line indicates where I draw the line for the upgrade vote.

It looks llke we have 2 players who haven't posted yet, so I'm sharing this game with at least 2 scum. I'm more of a townhunter by inclination, so I'm happy the first decision we need to make involves townreads.

As far as my own interest in the upgrade, I'm meh. I like being confirmed town when it happens in a game, but it messes with how I form reads on other players. And, I'm not feeling super leadery so far, which means I'd probably be trying to work toward consensus rather than set direction. I'd like someone who can lead well and whose read-process I trust to have the upgrade.

[Servant Alter Ego]

I should also say that although Foreigner is a strong townread, they really don't belong above the line due to the way they keep veering into fishing territory.

[Servant Alter Ego]

No scumreads yet Alter Ego?

Developing scumreads is not where my focus is atm. Like I said, by nature I approach games via Townread/POE. I think my POE is pretty clear in my list.

@Avenger, re Rider's interest level in the upgrade, you may be right on reread. The post doesn't sound like quite as much of a repudiation as I thought last night. It sounds like a similar level of disinterest to what I have.

[Servant Alter Ego]

I like Servant Ruler's first post, especially their doing some mod-meta and coming into the thread decisively. Sorry to see them go.

[Servant Alter Ego]

i scumread ruler solely because i know who made that post now

Elaborate?

[Servant Alter Ego]

Next tier is Caster. I like the way he defends his reads without going overboard or expressing assurance on reads that don't have sufficient basis for stronger stances.

I like Caster primarily because I keep reading posts and thinking things about them (notable example: 241 and 242) and Caster has this tendency to show up shortly thereafter and mind meld with me.

Yeah there's some of that going on. I've reached the point where I want to size up Caster's take on posts versus mine as a reality check, which is pretty solid townread territory.

I like the little flares of cynicism from Lancer and I think I just like them as a fellow-inhabitant of the game. Alignment wise I'm not at a solid townread. I feel similarly about Archer and Avenger - they are contributing to my enjoyment of the game. There are townflashes in their posts, but they're not strong townreads.

I'm slowly coming around on Avenger. Hard disagree on Archer though; 241 made me 180 and march right down scumfuck lane with that one. Discussion?

The main thing that stands out for me in 241 is in the reply to Avenger. Archer has indicated they hadn't read through the 1v1, and at some point said they'd decided to give it another try in reply to one of my posts about the interaction. And then came back a while later and said something to the effect of yeah, can't make myself wade all the way through that.

I thought there was an inconsistency regarding Archer's take on the basis for Avenger's townread of Foreigner. It could come from an overly literal-minded playstyle, maybe? Being an overly literal-minded player, myself in some ways, it's more of a note of interest than a tick-mark. The depth of Avenger's aversion to reading through the 1v1, especially given that it didn't burn the entire thread down, seems extreme, though.
I'm remembering the hallowed words of some of my earliest offsite mentors regarding emotional range in generic scum but that feels like a misapplication of those rules of thumb, which really aren't all that reliable anymore. Which leaves the contradictions themselves. Is there scum motivation in them?

How does the Assassin vote work for scum-Archer? We're both townreading Assassin. In your concept of the game state would that indicate that scum would rather have the dayplay of 4 players than the power-up of 3?

Beast is null. A vote without engagement is meh. 259 and 265 do feel slightly town, and I like that they engaged with Rider's questions. Sometimes 7 posts is enough to form a strong opinion. It's going to take more than that here.

Last night, I realized I was responding to Moon Cancer like their suspicion of me is coming from town. This morning, I'm not trusting that instinctual reaction so much. I'm sitting on a null town take.

I have the faintest of faint townleans on Beast simply because of their response to me and Moon Cancer. Moon Cancer I'm going to start needing some proper content from quickly.[/quote]

Yeah. That's were my null-town is coming from. With Moon Cancer, I need more not-related-to-me stuff to think about, I guess. I usually get good data for reads from how people react to my posts. This reaction just felt so far out in left field I can't really process alignment likelihood yet. Though in general I'm not hugely fond of running with day 1 associatives, which is basically what they're doing with their me/Archer stuff.

I do think rider, archer want the votes.
Assassin isn’t objecting to them.

I thought I'd answered this last night. I'll be more explicit; I don't want the master upgrade. The only real interest I have in it would be that it'd be nice to be an IC and it'd be nice to trust the person who's conferring Master upgrades. I have enough decent townreads now that the latter isn't an issue and the former is personal idiosyncrasy. Give it to someone that benefits us mechanically.[/quote]

Good, then I did grok this correctly last night.

VOTE: Caster

This is where I'm at, too. Almost went ahead and added a vote to this post, but haste isn't my thing.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Messed up a couple of quotes. If it's not understandable, let me know and I'll redo.

[Servant Alter Ego]

I like Servant Ruler's first post, especially their doing some mod-meta and coming into the thread decisively. Sorry to see them go.

Do you think the mod learned from their mistak? Or was that past game even a mistake at all? I’m seemed like an obvious loophole. @rider, thoughts here since you kind of appealed to authority in your opening post?

FEH is a Cabd mafia game I didn't play. Knowing mod-Cabd, I'd say that if it was a mistake, then he definitely learned from it. Grain of salt for consuming my opinion: I'm more of a reads-based player than a setup-breaker, to the point of abandoning setup assumptions if they are incompatible with ironclad strong reads. Y'all go ahead on with your flavor-breaking. I'll be sitting over here running a comb through my reads.

Altar ego and archer are both somewhat guilty of this sin, but I don’t particularly think it’s super scummy. Though, I am a little confused why altar ego said they get suspected a lot with wall posts like that.

The page constraint makes me want to make fewer, longer posts, but my unfettered playstyle is more in-the-moment with a wall here and there. Site meta didn't used to be as accepting of in the moment play as it has been lately-ish. Playing on my main, my playstyle was more accepted once I had established myself as a player. It's been a while since I've been a relatively unknown quantity and I was (and still am to some extent) a little worried about how my play would go down with a player list that for the most part either doesn't know me at all or doesn't recognize me.

A lot of people don’t want a master it seems. I get that. I want a master though. What could I do to earn your vote? I don’t want to be too forceful here. But I also can’t really trust anybody else with it.

My ideal candidate will wow me by

• Being a strong townread
  
• Gaining the trust of my other townreads
  
• Impressing me with a good mix of thoughtfulness, consensus-seeking and decisiveness
  
• Having great reads

The last is difficult to assess at this stage and where players' behaviors are warped by the presence of the master mechanic.

I'm compromising on some of these at this stage of the game, but hopefully I can get more picky when I have more data.

@alterego: I’m glad I’m contributing to your enjoyment of the game.

:hattip:

I see. So far there’s a mix of experience levels here. If you need me to explain anything let me know.
I too want to be IC and I think I would be a huge pain in the ass for the scum team.

@Everyone, I spoke with Cabd in PT and he stated that no mod errors have occurred as of yet.
He refused to comment on whether the scum team received fake claims or knew about the ability of the first master to give masters to two other players.

Well, we are voting for the player the majority thinks is most likely to be town and they get IC’d right? Is there anything else I need to know about this phase?

There's the cost associated with picking mafia instead of town. And the person who is confirmed town (assuming we get it right!) has to decide two more players to confer the master mechanic on. Which is another thing we need to get right. And they need to use their likely limited time in the game to lead some scum lynches. "Likely town" is just the start of the selection process, IMO.

[Servant Alter Ego]

If that's in their ISO I'm missing it.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Mistake!

I see alter ego.

But wouldn’t it be pretty forced of me to start behaving in a certain way just to gain votes?

I can give my reads if you’d like and what I feel about them so far.
But they’re not significantly different than anyone else’s so far and some of it is paranoia type thinking. For example, when I saw assassin with 2 votes I thought about what made people drawn to him and if I believed that giving no fucks would lead to some players voting there. I’m not sure given the level of content he had at the time.

I also think we should stop (I know I just asked this) about whether you want to have a master or not because it narrows the NK options for scum down the line. If you want it great, if you don’t that’s great too but don’t share it in thread. Maybe read your role pm and think about whether it would be so bad after all to get a master down the line or not.

Transparency about your thoughts where there's no potential harm to town in sharing them really should help you demonstrate how you'd approach being master-enabled. And a lack of transparency/avoidance of topics that could harm town is also a pretty big deal to me. I put my wish list out there as a point of discussion - there might be a better way to approach the selection than I have in mind!

I hope to be obvious enough as town to be considered for master-enabling down the road. I feel chicken about having enough power coming out of this phase to really screw things up for town if my choices and decisions are bad.

[Servant Alter Ego]

I see.
Well, here’s transparency.
I’m town. Vote for me. I’m not worried about messing this up or handling this responsibility with a lack of care. I can be discrete, thoughtful, my strong town reads are statistically less likely to be scum than random chance based on past data (my null reads however, *COUGH*) it would benefit town to have me voted and I have little doubt of that.

I’m also very modest and not annoying at all.

I’ll try to be more transparent where I think it will benefit town going forward.
It kind of sucks to be on a tablet, because I can’t wall post without a lot of extra effort on my part.

I'm taking my own precautions against slipping. It would drive me insane to play mostly/entirely by tablet.

Thanks for talking through some of this with me. I feel about a thousand times more stuck in the game than I did this time yesterday!

You disagreed with my Rider and Assassin reads earlier. Do you still disagree? If so, why?

-------------

I aspire to make this my last post of the night.

[Servant Alter Ego]

VOTE: Caster

Because not attempting to get this one thing that is a benefit to town regardless of what townie has it is the same as not playing at all.

What's your basis for townreading Caster?

[Servant Alter Ego]

While gunning for the master might seem cooler, a measured approach is apt for a ruler.

I get the sense of an implicit townread from this post. Is that correct?

[Servant Alter Ego]

I think we can do better on reading moon cancer if we wanted to put the effort in.

Has their game input since this post helped you with this? I'm still struggling to read them. Their associative scumread of me/archer still baffles me, partly because they haven't elaborated or brought it back up. I was hoping to get something readable off additional data about why they think I'm scum.

------------------

A few of my reads are heading more scumward due to lack of meaningful activity.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Ohhh. I just noticed the meter and rhyming in Moon Cancer's posts. The unnatural phrasing is also gonna throw me off.

@Moon Cancer do you have a post restriction/requirement?

[Servant Alter Ego]

You could call it a restriction though it is self-imposed, but I'd planned on giving it up even before it was exposed. It's too much effort in considering how my posts are composed so I was thinking it should just be disposed... of.

I am really happy to read this. I'm 100%* sure Cabd wouldn't put a post restriction in this game due to discussions of game design we've had. I wasn't looking forward to the cognitive load of sorting out alignment likelihood around faking a posting restriction on top of everything else.

* well 99.9999% because Cabd does love a good troll

[Servant Alter Ego]

Gentlebeings, we need 10 more posts to give Cabd the pagetop he so needs for his votecount due in 10 minutes.

I think we can do it! We might even be able to make the posts with content!

Rider, to what extent do you think animosities and pushes so far are driven by a burning desire to get the master upgrade? Do the campaigns look mostly town to you? Does anything stand out as not like the others?

[Servant Alter Ego]

I think we can do better on reading moon cancer if we wanted to put the effort in.

Has their game input since this post helped you with this? I'm still struggling to read them. Their associative scumread of me/archer still baffles me, partly because they haven't elaborated or brought it back up. I was hoping to get something readable off additional data about why they think I'm scum.

------------------

A few of my reads are heading more scumward due to lack of meaningful activity.

A lot of my read on alien is set up spec. @rider, @alterego, has there ever been or would Cabd ever place a mechanic in a game where voting someone that was town could confer a benefit to town with a combined ability? Is there a history of that on this site? Votes should be fairly negative in nature.

Without set up spec, the only thing I have is a lot of hints at internal narrative, such as pming cabd to ask about role stuff to break the game etc. but I used to do that all the time as scum where’d I’d bread crumb these little hints that I’m doing stuff ~behind the scenes~

On that 30 minute walk I mentioned I almost decided to declare moon cancer scum when I got back, but decided that it didn’t quite fit. I’m still considering whether I want to run him up or not and see if it’s plausible next day phase.

I'm not sure what you mean by combined ability. I have seen a few roles at MS where voting a town player did confer a town benefit, though. One role that showed up in at least a couple not-Cabd games was a Treestumper who would stump a town player if they were the hammer vote.

Obviously, votes on Vengefuls and Supersaints can potentially benefit town, too, but I don't think that's the kind of role you have in mind.

Explain a little more about conferring a benefit to town with a combined ability, and I'll look at some Cabd games tonight to job my memory.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Can you explain this please? For the record, I found it weird how Avenger wanted me to townread Foreigner based on interaction with Berserker, but then cited reasons outside of that to support his own TR.

This is what I was thinking: Reasons to townread Foreigner multiplied quickly IMO. Avenger said they wanted you to read the 1v1 and pointed out Foreigner came out of it looking town. You said you didn't want to read it, then said something about my post on the interaction making you want to have a look, and shortly after that posted that yeah, you tried and no, you didn't want to read it. In arguing town-Foreigner with someone who refused to read that interaction, they used data that was in parts of the thread you presumably did read. Given that at least part of the point was to argue that Foreigner is town, why wouldn't they use data that you'd be familiar with rather than the data you didn't want to look at?

That's what I saw as inconsistent. You demurred reading the part they wanted you to read, wanted them to explain their read (which I took as you wanting them to convince you they had good reason for thinking Foreigner's town) and then gigged them for using the data that should have been familiar to you instead of data you'd refused at least twice to look at.

Did you read the thread before you asked this?

I did read it, but my brain glitched a little bit because I spent part of this afternoon reading a game that I vaguely recalled had buffs that could benefit the sole recipient, and was conferred by vote. I wanted to look at how that mechanic shaped the way people played. From my read-through, those players didn't know for sure what their buff would be and there wasn't any double day type mechanic or scary publicized power-up of the scum team. The players in that game who campaigned were all town. The luck of the draw in terms of who was town vs scum probably factored into scum not going hard after it.

The reason my brain glitched was because the buff vote and elim vote were going on simultaneously on day 1 in that game, and the buff vote used hurt tags.

I sorted myself out, but probably would have probed in some manner to nail down for sure what the vote meant.

I'm not rider, but the only person who is really campaigning seems to be Avenger? Who else are you thinking of?

Assassin and Berserker. I haven't directly interacted with Berserker about the master upgrade. To my mind each has taken a different approach to winning that prize. Maybe they're all three town. I'm not scumreading them.

However.

I feel like this town may not be as lucky in having a hesitant scum team. The scum prize looks valuable, especially for a strong scum team.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Assassin and Berserker.

In rereading Assassin's iso this morning, they're not campaigning as hard as I thought. It's more like they've pushed back against townreads when someone* expresses willingness to vote for another player. They do say that they don't NOT want the upgrade, though!

This is someone I'm strongly considering to give my vote. I really like their iso overall.

*I'm not sure how universal it is, but they pushed back on my list of players I'd vote for. And at least once on someone else.

When did this game get so dense. Or maybe it's just my brain saying no to mafia.

FYI, the initial idea was potentially doing what I asked about if I found out learning attributes had some benefit (this was back when I thought my master upgrade was overpowered). Cabd shut that down. That made me go "why the fuck did you even give me that Noble Phantasm then rofl? I cant even use it" then two minutes later go "oh, duh, I'm not the only one who can hand out master upgrades". I figured it be like one, maybe two other people who could do it (it seemed like a pretty overpowered thing to be able to do), didn't realise it was the entire game. *shrug*

Well, I now thoroughly believe you're telling the truth about what your NP does at least.

Does it feel like an ability more likely to be given to town to you? It's a Sensor-ish ability and absolutely makes sense to be in the game. It's pretty OP, but that's the nature of NP abilities. A traditional Sensor learns how many scum votes were on their wagon, which is overpowered as hell.

-----------

I'm trying not to assume genders, or at least not let assumptions get into my posts, but it's hard!

[Servant Alter Ego]

I'm not great at setup spec either, but I have seen quite a sample of Cabd setups. This strikes me as an ability that he would put into this game, given what I know so far. There's synergy with Foreigner's claim. That makes me lean toward town having the ability (with a good dose of reminding myself "it's a Cabd game, dummy"). I'm still not all that happy with Moon Cancer, but I feel like some (most?) of the negative checkmarks may come down to personality and playstyle clashes.

[Servant Alter Ego]

moon cancer probably town just for bothering to think about applying their role in that way

In rereading Assassin's iso this morning, they're not campaigning as hard as I thought. It's more like they've pushed back against townreads when someone* expresses willingness to vote for another player. They do say that they don't NOT want the upgrade, though!

my process has been to try to play things out normally and not spend too much time on mechanics, just look for reads and argue stuff

to be clear on my stance: i would accept master votes, because i know i am town and believe the best outcome is for town to be chosen in this phase. can't promise great reads or amazing leadership though. if people wanna vote me that's cool, if not i'm gonna push for whoever i'm most confident is town to get selected

Reading back through the thread AGAIN, I see that I attributed something to you that Avenger posted. I thought I was doing pretty well at hooking posts to names in my memory. It doesn't really impact my read, but it makes me even more wrong about you campaigning.

I guess I'm low enough sort priority that my error didn't catch your attention!

How are you feeling about Rider?

---------------

I'm just about ready to start taking townblock applications. /homage to our dearly beloved host

[Servant Alter Ego]

Alter Ego, did you ask me something? I'm really distracted today and it's taken me an hour to write this little post cause other things keep coming up.

I don't think there's another question for you that I committed to the thread. I've been wanting to measure my take of the game and some of my reads against yours, but balancing that, I don't want too much external influence on my thoughts. And balancing

that

, I hope an in-thread masonry coalesces. I like my safe spaces. You and Assassin have a good mix of read independence and flickers of snark, and I've felt like my impressions of the game have been challenged and only the best of my hot takes have been reinforced, if that makes sense. Bonus: I also am entertained!

So, I've been not exactly lowkey buddying you even though I worry about setting off alarms.

Let the paranoia commence!

----------------------

@Assassin

It took me a little longer to feel strongly that I can work with you, too. My townsense came way before teamsense did. I feel like you may like to play super-independently from your play so far, and I'm not sure you like or trust townblocking.

---------------------

@Moon Cancer

I ask in all earnestness, should I take your question seriously? If so, why would you want a scumread in your townblock?

There's some work needed for a meeting of the minds. I haven't sensed interest on your part in engaging me. I'm pretty sure I asked a question of you a page or two back and didn't get a reply.

----------------------

@Avenger, I like your challenges to my reads and thoughts about the gamestate, but there's an open agenda there and I'm not sure how much your ambition to win the buff affects your sense of other players. So, yeah, very interested in your reads and thoughts, and hoping I've got the right level of filter now for the ambition.

--------------------

Caution: By day 3 if not sooner, I tend to turn into a paranoid wreck and burn it all to the ground.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Can you please explain your combined scumread on me and Alter Ego? Also, what makes me scummier than him?

Good luck with that.

Also, town blocking here before a flip is.... Bad. Very bad.

This is an opinion I've seen before. I feel similarly about things like pre-flip associations. And don't get me started on obsessive, blinkered VCA.

As far as townblocks go, if it's not a good one that becomes very obvious very quickly. I've thrown a spanner. It's generating some interesting data as well as serving my primary purpose.

Okay I'm good with Caster winning the vote too.

I wouldn't cry if that's where we end up.

Alarms be damned. I'll be in thread masons with you.

Your avatar looks like a chess knight and it really fits your approach to this game in some ways. A little zig and zag here and there.

Vote Assassin with me. Unless you have a really good reason not to. I'm kind of pissed off and am very prone to making bad decisions!

Pedit: Caster come be masons with us

It's where I'm leaning. I'm just not ready to throw down a vote yet.

I'm more or less in for the inthread masonry, though I'd be more comfortable electing alter ego or foreigner atm. I don't think we're playing well by honoring foreigner's desire to not be elected when he is obvtown.

Don't encourage the imp on my shoulder.

What do we think are the odds of someone using the "I want to elect scum" take yo vote their buddy? Or should I be not posting this yet?

That's one of a handful of possibilities.

Which door to open?

@Assassin

It took me a little longer to feel strongly that I can work with you, too. My townsense came way before teamsense did. I feel like you may like to play super-independently from your play so far, and I'm not sure you like or trust townblocking.

townlblocs were never really a

thing

for me, and i have severe trust issues unless i know the other person well, and seeing as this is an anonymous game...

I'm not at all surprised this is your answer based on my super-duper model of how you're playing this game. I may follow you around like a puppy anyway.

not really a fan of that post

Why though

big pile of quotestripes with too many empty lines, a lot of hedges, no real clarity of purpose

I don't enjoy how you've apparently put in all of this effort but don't seem interested in playing with the rest of us, and are actively voting someone you think is scum so the game sorts it for you in a way that's really bad if he is scum.
I don't even think it's AI, i just... don't like it.

This is @Moon Cancer though that's probably clear

I like this post a lot!

in the spirit of this game i can't say anything but lol i would love to see it

There's a player I'm using as a predictive model for your play. It's working quite well so far.

[Servant Alter Ego]

I don't enjoy how you've apparently put in all of this effort but don't seem interested in playing with the rest of us, and are actively voting someone you think is scum so the game sorts it for you in a way that's really bad if he is scum.
I don't even think it's AI, i just... don't like it.

This is @Moon Cancer though that's probably clear

I like this post a lot!

shocker: i dont

What do you think of Moon Cancer's approach to the game right now. What do you make of their strategy for using the master-upgrade vote?

well isnt that cute

Puppy-dog cute?

Side-games and self-challenges, and the old-game-reading I've assigned myself are all that stand between between me and a broken F5 key. Or a 5 page ISO.

I'm doing y'all a favor crafting player models.

Maybe I should challenge the mods to come play some 3P ELLO in my PT.

[Servant Alter Ego]

What do you think of Moon Cancer's approach to the game right now. What do you make of their strategy for using the master-upgrade vote?

ehhh i have an answer but don't want to say anything yet, sorry. want to see other reponses.

Fair enough. Anything you do want to discuss?

If not, Cabd's Tales trilogy might make a decent late night read.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Who's my model?

One of those games should probably go down in a list of the worst games in the history of ever.

To even suggest reading it makes me think you're a sociopath.

[Servant Alter Ego]

One of those games should probably go down in a list of the worst games in the history of ever.

To even suggest reading it makes me think you're a sociopath.

The post you replied to was MY reading list for the next couple of days. I'm not through digging, but I'll maybe have some observations about the game designs tonight or early tomorrow, depending on how bad my game-insomnia gets.

@Shielder

When I saw you'd made some posts I figured I'd have some new questions for you, but I don't, at least not on these posts. You set sail with your second post in the game, and have hewed close to that course ever since. This is an observation, not a criticism!

Does this opinion still hold?

Also, for what it's worth, my least favorite people so far are Archer, Lancer, and Rider, since I feel like they have the worst signal-to-noise ratios so far.

[Servant Alter Ego]

@Shielder

When I saw you'd made some posts I figured I'd have some new questions for you, but I don't, at least not on these posts. You set sail with your second post in the game, and have hewed close to that course ever since. This is an observation, not a criticism!

Does this opinion still hold?

Also, for what it's worth, my least favorite people so far are Archer, Lancer, and Rider, since I feel like they have the worst signal-to-noise ratios so far.

This was meant for Ruler, not Shielder. OOPS!

---------------------

I may be wrong, but I get the feel that some players would like to end this phase pretty soon and move on. I don't think we'll need to run out the clock, but in an activity-restricted game I hate to give up pages.

Some of y'all could poast more.

[Servant Alter Ego]

@Shielder

When I saw you'd made some posts I figured I'd have some new questions for you, but I don't, at least not on these posts. You set sail with your second post in the game, and have hewed close to that course ever since. This is an observation, not a criticism!

Does this opinion still hold?

Also, for what it's worth, my least favorite people so far are Archer, Lancer, and Rider, since I feel like they have the worst signal-to-noise ratios so far.

This was meant for Ruler, not Shielder. OOPS!

---------------------

I may be wrong, but I get the feel that some players would like to end this phase pretty soon and move on. I don't think we'll need to run out the clock, but in an activity-restricted game I hate to give up pages.

Some of y'all could poast more.

If you mean my predecessors second post, no. I don't find zerker townie really. I'm not sure what they say that caused them to bemoan the lack of votes.

If you mean mine, yes. Are you opposed to receiving the master? Shotgun to the back you would be my vote at the moment.

More cautious than opposed. It's always cool when shiny buffs come my way without seeking them out because I'm just that towny. My hesitance is more about whether I can step up and be what the buff will demand of a player. If it came to me, I'd do my best. And we'd learn how well the mechanic works in a consensus-builder's hands.

Picking a hero may be a better way to go.

[Servant Alter Ego]

@Alter ego, why do you like #465? It looks like an attitude post.

It's a concise laundry list of the things that clash for me about Moon Cancer's approach to the game. It's not just a playstyle clash. I think it goes deeper, into differing philosophies about the game, and fundamentally, different personalities and strengths/weaknesses that have led to those playstyles and philosophies.

Although my reaction to post 464 was an immediate thumbs up for verbalizing what I've been thinking, the post itself isn't alignment indicative. I think anyone, even someone who agrees 100% with Moon Cancer's playstyle and approach, would be able to write this list just based on looking at some player reactions in this thread.

And further, the playstyle itself isn't alignment indicative. For me, it's harder to zoom in on alignment indicators in their posts due to the style clash. And I want to give some room for them to play the game the way they want to play it and think about the impacts their stances and behaviors could have on the outcome. It may not be as easy for me to see it in a playstyle I don't entirely get, but their play will still try to advance their win condition.

I'm running on a severe sleep deficit today. I hope the above post makes sense.

Also, re:post count, I know it's limited but 60 pages per phase is a lot if you just don't spam.

I hope so!

[Servant Alter Ego]

@Alter, I see. I thought when you said you liked it, you were town reading him for it.

To be fair, It did strike me as something a town player might post, but it's within most players' scum ranges.

[Servant Alter Ego]

@Ruler at some point soon, I'd like to chat with you about the game and understand more about how you're seeing it.

Same, @Beast, @Shielder, @Saber

@Foreigner, I miss you! Come back and play please!

[Servant Alter Ego]

Foreigner are you caught up? New thoughts about the game?

[Servant Alter Ego]

What do the groupings mean?

[Servant Alter Ego]

People who seem scummy that might not be try hardy town.
People who seem townie that might be try hardy scum.

That's an intriguing way to split the list up.

I think all my paranoia circuits would blow at once if I were to create something like that for a game and dwell on it.

[Servant Alter Ego]

I look forward to it.

Right now I feel like a game axis has tilted. Maybe it's the hour.

[Servant Alter Ego]

That is way too brazen to be scum as well idk.

This doesn't work.

What are your reads, currently?

[Servant Alter Ego]

@Ruler at some point soon, I'd like to chat with you about the game and understand more about how you're seeing it.

Same, @Beast, @Shielder, @Saber

@Foreigner, I miss you! Come back and play please!

Sure, I'm up to answer whatever might be on your mind.

What are your reads, currently

[Servant Alter Ego]

The way this game just fucking dies for large chunks of day is driving me crazy.

[Servant Alter Ego]

This is an initial report on the Tales trilogy. I'm feeling all stabbity because in the large theme, our Beloved Mod didn't publish the role PMs and that was where the info would have been about the restrictions on what players actions would fail or succeed on. So, it comes down to role claims. Some role abilities only worked on characters from particular Tales games. Some worked based on character age. Some worked on whether the character was human or not. I've read up to about mid day 3 which is somewhere around page 200 of that game I can't make it any further. Too much yelling and walling. There may be additional restrictions revealed further in the game that I'll never learn about, but it does give food for thought about how some abilities might work here. I'm not counting on the only gate on an action being attribute.

I thought that game would have the most role variety, so I tackled it first. Now I'm going to bleach my eyes and look at the other two games.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Rider, the reason for this may be the nature of what this phase of the game is supposed to accomplish, but my reads really haven't progressed much since around page 10. From what I've gathered in other posts, it feels, with perhaps a couple of exceptions, players are talking more about stuff that confirms their earlier reads than about stuff that changes those reads. I guess it's not a terrible thing? We have candidates for the master upgrade narrowed down and are focusing on finalizing on one of them, or have already made up our minds.

Or maybe I'm being too lazy and distracted by reading old games. A reread and isos are in my near future.

I want to finish the Tales reads and look at a couple of Cabd's designs that weren't based on high-flavor games to see if there are other facets of his design proclivities that might show up in this game, but I think his high-flavor games are probably a genre unto themselves.

[Servant Alter Ego]

How rude!

I feel deeply drawn to look into the soul of this game with your eyes.

[Servant Alter Ego]

You don't really want to know what I'm thinking, it would scar your eyes far worse than anything in Tales of You could have. 14 pages of junk and I basically took a 24-hour hiatus yesterday too.

Having spent several hours wandering in what proved to be the 9th circle of Dante's Inferno, or perhaps mucking around in the basement of the House of Usher, you terrify me about what this game could harbor.

[Servant Alter Ego]

jeez that was a slog. im all caught up though.

Do your caught-up impressions differ from your catching-up impressions? Do you have additional impressions?

[Servant Alter Ego]

I go off and do a dnd campaign and miss the party.

I really wish i knew what I was supposed to be looking at in order to get a good read on Moon Cancer because I am just coming up blank right now.
I am likely going to be crowd sourcing that read and absolving myself of all fault if the consensus is wrong. Thank you everyone for your understanding.

I'm feeling a little bit better about Moon Cancer, but I can't find good words for why. Part of it is that while they have just ignored stuff they don't want to engage, and yet they do engage in banter here and there and they've been very clear on some extremely consequential aspects of how they see the game mechanics. And that eliminated them from the pool of people to upgrade, which says something about how they want to play this game on a personal level. The idea of using the master upgrade as an investigation is a challenging way of looking at the game mechanics. The idea scared me at first, but it is a consequence of the mechanic. We can play it as safely as possible or we can take risks.

I'm on team "play it safe", but mafia is a bloodthirsty manipulative game and risk/reward is a thing.

No worries. Anything I can do to help. Other than being helpful.

I irl laughed.

Caught up again, and wtf, how is Assassin a top contender for master?

Someone asked me about my scum reads earlier and I didn't explain them before because moon caster said something funny about agreeing with me on them and when I asked them to explain they never acknowledged it and then the conversation just kept going with noone calling them on it while I was gone.

Current scum reads, in no particular order: moon, assassin, and Archer.

I removed alter from my earlier scum reads because I feel a bit better about them.

You can add me to the list of people over this zero phase. Also against the idea of a town block day zero, and embarrassed that I even have to say that.

I need to reorient myself. I've been treating this as a normal day and reading this thread while looking for scum and town but that's not right.

VOTE: beast

Pretty sure this person is town.

I found the reactions to the townblock application interesting and maybe useful. That's where I should have started feeling better about Moon Cancer, but I was still pretty spooked.

Caught up again, and wtf, how is Assassin a top contender for master?

Someone asked me about my scum reads earlier and I didn't explain them before because moon caster said something funny about agreeing with me on them and when I asked them to explain they never acknowledged it and then the conversation just kept going with noone calling them on it while I was gone.

Current scum reads, in no particular order: moon, assassin, and Archer.

I removed alter from my earlier scum reads because I feel a bit better about them.

You can add me to the list of people over this zero phase. Also against the idea of a town block day zero, and embarrassed that I even have to say that.

I need to reorient myself. I've been treating this as a normal day and reading this thread while looking for scum and town but that's not right.

VOTE: beast

Pretty sure this person is town.

are you trying to get scumread

I'm glad you're here to point out the scummy stuff. It's gonna be ez-mode!

@Alter Ego 488: Yes, none of them have done anything particularly impressive in the time since. Archer is still quote striping, Rider is still including unnecessary pro-town pomp to their posts, Lancer seems to be getting needlessly agitated by things I wouldn't expect a townie to get agitated about (see the response to my desire for Master Caster as one example).

I don't see some of what you're pointing out as alignment indicative. It's an anonymous game, so we don't actually know if the stuff you're talking about here is pure personality or not. Your thoughts about Lancer

may

hold water because you're talking about reactions to game content.

An anonymous game would be incredibly boring if as well as unremarkable, unchosen avatars and names, we also posted like robots. I'm glad that there's personality and emotions in the posts.

No one is gunning to buddy me.
And quite honestly I am fairly open to being praised in exchange for my eternal loyalty.

What am I? Chopped liver?

Making a universal town read the one who gets the master legitimately seems like the worst use of the master phase I can think of. And I've like...

thought of a lot of stupid things in this game

.

We're just not on your level. Do you still think using it as an investigation on Assassin is the best option? (I should answer this myself with an iso. So if your opinion hasn't changed, add this to the list of ignorable questions.)

been reviewing ISOs for science and i decided my issues with archer were probably stylistic, sort of unconfortable with how many people seem to be scumreading them? i think they'd do a good job

VOTE: archer

I feel like this is going to be a consequential post somewhere down the line.

And after a solid week of sitting around talking about how to best use this power, I highly doubt anyone is going to be persuaded to believe anything that doesn't align with their current beliefs.

My beliefs have taken 2 major hits in the last 3 pages, and I'm not even caught up. So you never know.

We aren't targeting a null read. Those end up being scum way too much.

what about voting you, instead

I would like that. IC is fun for me, but my role doesn't have much utility even with power up but I can still power up others. Idk how much of an issue that is.
Why don't you want to be mastered again?

oh i do. i don't actually townread you at all lmao, just wanted to see what you'd say in response to being voted because you hadn't made any comment on it

UNVOTE:

Standing down from high alert.

I'm not really sure I'm getting this with all the arm twisting I'm doing.
That usually doesn't work on people. It just builds resentment imo.

@Beast, no I got that part.

I don't feel resentment at all.

Do people think Rider is town? I'd vote Rider. I'd also vote Beast if people think that slot is town.

I do think Rider is town. I feel like there's a small hole in this game though, where interactions between you and Rider should be.

I keen wanting to write "Riker" instead of "Rider".

--------------------------

Well, that was a wild ride.

[Servant Alter Ego]

I feel like there's a small hole in this game though, where interactions between you and Rider should be.

Retracting this. Decent amount of game spec going on in this double iso.

[Servant Alter Ego]

AE what do we think about the idea behind voting in Saber?

What are your thoughts about Saber? I don't see much mention of them in your iso, Do they fit your ideas about choosing a player to upgrade?

I'm slowly growing a town read on Alterego.

This surprises me a little.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Why?

I had to check to be sure when I read that post. In a quick scan of your iso I don't see anything that indicates you weren't townreading me. You've asked me questions, but I don't recall any followup. We've just not had interactions that I'd associate with being carefully weighed over several days.

What are your thoughts about Saber? I don't see much mention of them in your iso, Do they fit your ideas about choosing a player to upgrade?

If I had a good answer to this question I wouldn't be asking the question.
I think I lean town on the slot but a heavy emphasis on the word think.

I think my future involves voting Avenger.

I'm at the point where I need to go through things with a fine tooth comb again, to make sure I've got players meshed right with their posts, and give a deep look at what players say about each other and how that maps to their votes.

For instance, Shielder's Saber vote doesn't have much basis from their catchup posts. And there was a post they made yesterday(?) that I flagged to myself as a possible scum slip (it may be nothing, but I want to keep it on the table. So, Shielder listing a few townreads, most of which aren't controversial, and then votes for the one on the list that I have the weakest read of set off an alarm. Now I want to look at Saber more closely.

If I think about going with something like the sort of vote that Moon Cancer has suggested, then I'd want to vote someone who looks like they could be really awesome as town (especially if they didn't have to fight a lot of paranoia) or really dangerous as scum.

[Servant Alter Ego]

I'm pretty awesome as town and dangerous as scum. Or so I've been told. Just treat this game as an exception to the rule. .. ... ...

If I were following your approach, I might be voting for you!

[Servant Alter Ego]

If I think about going with something like the sort of vote that Moon Cancer has suggested, then I'd want to vote someone who looks like they could be really awesome as town (especially if they didn't have to fight a lot of paranoia) or really dangerous as scum.

In this hypothetical how do you go about evaluating town leading potential vs scum skill potential with identities off the table? Since I would imagine the line is thin there.

In an anonymous game, I'd think a lot about narrative shaping and cadence, and what effect those tactics have on the early game. Players who are good at these skills will use them as both alignments, so the effect and the possible motives for wanting that effect are crucial to understand. In a non-anonymous game I would either know a player's capability with these skills or be able to find out via meta research if I've never played with them before.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Regarding the other two Tales games.

Abyss: This was described as semi-role-madness. Role character features had no effect on who could be targeted or how effective an action would be against a player as best I can tell. Role PMs weren't published in the flips or postgame.

Vesperia: This was described as full-role-madness. Role character features didn't have effects here, either. PMs were published, though! One of the roles had a secret passive Vengeful ability. The role pm said they were VT. From what I've seen of later games designed by our Benevolent Mod, I wouldn't expect roles in this game to have secret gotchyas. I hope not, anyway.

None of the three towns managed a win. The third game was an absolute rout. Only town were eliminated in the day game, and the Vig also killed town. The entire scum team made it to ExLo.

[Servant Alter Ego]

I'm surprised no one but berserker has explained why they are not voting for foreigner as I've now brought it up like 4 times.

I'll have to move my vote soon if this continues.

I've mentioned a couple times why I don't want to vote them.

They said they don't want it.

Another factor early on was that although I had a townread, the rolefishy posts bothered me and I worried they might harm town with the master ability even with the best of intentions.

I'm more willing to entertain different approaches to selecting a player to buff now than I was during the first couple of calendar days.

My vote will probably go to Assassin, though if they are town I feel they could be an asset in the mid-to-late game. I'm considering giving it to you, too. And I won't pitch a fit if Avenger gets it.

Dangerous imps are whispering in my ear that I should go for the buff. The thought of burning across the early game like a meteor and then snuffing out is seductive.

Loud music mostly drowns them out.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Did you mean to link to an Archer post?

[Servant Alter Ego]

Ah, this is 230.

^ seven days actually and there’s a 60 page restriction per day before we’re limited to just voting.

I sit corrected, my apologies. I'm not particularly concerned about either until we're within meaningful distance of achieving it however. Question to Foreigner stands.

Servant foreigner read: Constant ‘okay I won’t, wait yes I will’ in regards to following his quest and set up speculation in addition to not wanting power pretty much seals his slot as town to me. So if we want to pick town today no matter what, there’s not much reason not to vote there. Case closed for me.
12 to go.

I agree with you in that Foreigner is probably town. However, I'm not convinced at this time voting for him is a good idea, because I don't trust his judgment well enough to hand him kingmaker (Mastermaker?) abilities.

I need to reread you. Be right back.

[Servant Alter Ego]

anything jump out? am i getting the feeling there's some false modesty going around here? is it possible the scumteam just decided they didn't

want

to go for the master vote? that for whatever benefits they might get, they're scared of flipping one of their own early? that it would be way safer to just pick a town player and pocket them so maybe they get handed out upgrades in secret? plus they'd get to keep their numbers advantage. it's also the kind of thing where, if you're confident in your abilities as a scum player you rarely are going to want to take yourself out of the game early and you might not have confidence in your teammates to carry (this is especially true if ruler and/or shielder is on your team)

I keep thinking about a masterful scum player treestumped in the scum pt and directing their scum army of 3, completely invisible to town. And I keep trying to find that scum player maneuvering into position in this phase.

Or, one of the 4 scum has something additional to becoming a PT treestump and powering up the other scum roles, that activates upon being selected. Something that makes them more destructive to town than the other roles.

Maybe this scumteam doesn't have a mastermind and isn't trying hard to position to get the master ability.

Maybe the strategy or lack thereof will be crystal clear in retrospect.

I keep telling myself that a bork-reviewed game won't leave town a smoking hulk on the basis of one bad wagon.

I need to clear my mind and let your posts sink in for a few.

[Servant Alter Ego]

anything jump out? am i getting the feeling there's some false modesty going around here? is it possible the scumteam just decided they didn't

want

to go for the master vote? that for whatever benefits they might get, they're scared of flipping one of their own early? that it would be way safer to just pick a town player and pocket them so maybe they get handed out upgrades in secret? plus they'd get to keep their numbers advantage. it's also the kind of thing where, if you're confident in your abilities as a scum player you rarely are going to want to take yourself out of the game early and you might not have confidence in your teammates to carry (this is especially true if ruler and/or shielder is on your team)

I keep thinking about a masterful scum player treestumped in the scum pt and directing their scum army of 3, completely invisible to town. And I keep trying to find that scum player maneuvering into position in this phase.

This sounds better in theory than it probably is in practice. Even the best scumplayer on the planet would lose if the advice they give is ignored/their team doesn't have the skills to act on it.

Or, one of the 4 scum has something additional to becoming a PT treestump and powering up the other scum roles, that activates upon being selected. Something that makes them more destructive to town than the other roles.

Maybe this scumteam doesn't have a mastermind and isn't trying hard to position to get the master ability.

The only two this game that have made any kind of serious campaign to get elected are Avenger and Berserker. If scum is tryharding to get the master upgrade then one of them has to be scum. I'm leaning toward scum not bothering with the master upgrade.

Despite all my paranoid setup spec (So paranoid it's in a markdown editer instead of my PT so I won't hear laughter all the way from Illinois), these posts feel like the universe we're probably in.

[Servant Alter Ego]

I was going to spend tonight rereading, but y'all are having another party!

I just don't trust AE to make good choices.

I could make a snippy "feeling's mutual" post here, but I think we know that. So, I'll point out that we at least agree on Caster.

Like that assassin wagon does not inspire confidence in me.

The whole wagon? Specific individuals?

so: i'm okay with voting avenger because i've liked some of the posts he made recently, i have a vague ~gamestate~ feeling off the wagon on him that he might be town, and it would save me the trouble of having to actually read him

if people are still uneasy about voting avenger (and, like, i get it), i'll take it, or i'd be okay with berserker, because i am reasonably confident their attitude toward the master vote is more likely to come from town (want it -> don't care anymore -> actually maybe i should take it, i don't trust you people). plus, i have the feeling they're a player who likes to go deep as scum and wouldn't want to knock themself out so early.

My main qualm about you getting the buff is that it will probably impact your longevity.

[Servant Alter Ego]

i feel like caster is scum. i also think that foreigner is scummy

for driving paranoia in townies.

How so?

And Caster is scum because they called you scum?

[Servant Alter Ego]

fine by me!

Vote: Assassin

[Servant Alter Ego]

@Alterego, did you ever engage with my response to your question? Or did I miss it?

I'm reaaaaaalllly sleepy and I can't find your question post so I'm not sure if I answered it. Help?

[Servant Alter Ego]

@question to everyone, do private PT posts count toward your title?

Like If I post 1000 times in a PT do I have a mafia goon title?

@Alterego, you probably didn't. You sort of asked how my read had progressed from never hinting I thought you weren't town to town read. So I replied to that.

Oh yeah, I saw that. It made sense so I didn't have a followup.

I'm getting a sense of deja vu here because my observation was that you had questions for me, but not a lot of followup.

[Servant Alter Ego]

@question to everyone, do private PT posts count toward your title?

Like If I post 1000 times in a PT do I have a mafia goon title?

I don't think PT posts count. at least not while they're actually private, and maybe never. There's a thread I read somewhere about how that works but hell if I know where it is.

[Servant Alter Ego]

I see. You mean the tables have turned? That's normal. Not every question is answered or followed up on.
Guess you don't know about my title question?

Not for absolutely certain. But, I know that some effort went into working things out so that it wouldn't be evident that someone must be posting in a PT, given their profile post count. It would be especially damning for newbie game players in their first mafia game to have a post count discrepancy.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Wow, are you actually mafia? Lol.

Ahhh!

Players who refuse to post a complete reads list with reasoning is mafia. Wow, this game's going to be easy.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Then please explain what it is about those posts/the interaction with Moon Cancer that strengthens your scumread, if you don't mind.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Wow, are you actually mafia? Lol.

Ahhh!

Players who refuse to post a complete reads list with reasoning is mafia. Wow, this game's going to be easy.

This is also a fucking terribad post and AE should be killed for it.

Exercise to the reader to discover why. First one in gets brownie points.

If I'd posted what I really wanted to post at Avenger, you and I might have hit it off, at least in terms of bombast!

I find it almost impossible to not rise to the kinds of dismissive posts you've made about me. But, it's not going to be conducive to a friendly atmosphere if I keep doing that. So, if and when you decide to present a case for me being scum, I'll respond to that. If you have questions for me, I'll respond to that. For the betterment of society, I'll probably ignore anything that's not one of those.

@Alter Ego 519: sup

Keep doing what you're doing! I'll chime in if I have questions.

@Alter Ego again 669: I actually agree with you to an extent, but that extent is "Day 2 and beyond once there are vote trains and flips with which to work". Day 1 is all wordswordswords with no frames of reference so I'm far more inclined to suspect/vote for people whose posts look more like mafia trying to BS hunting than town genuinely hunting.

I don't mind silliness myself, but when my primary perception of someone is "meaningless silliness", that looks like mafia trying to BS hunting. Particularly when it is sprinked with obvious pro-town sentiments that anyone can produce.

669 is a long post with comments to a few different people about different topics. What part(s) are you agreeing with? And who is the silliness part of your reply about?

[Servant Alter Ego]

i would be worried berserker was trying to dismantle consensus if i wasn't fairly sure her early play made her town

I concur.

----------------------------

I'm in the middle of an extremely nitpicky note-taking reread of this game, and when I finish that, I'm going to try to do some progression analysis wrt to votes.

I hope to complete both before we're into day 1 proper.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Oh, I know the answer to Berserker's riddle too coincidentally. It's because Alter Ego stressed the h there. But I don't think that necessarily means Alter Ego is scum, just wrong.

Wrong about Rider?

If I'm wrong, I hope I figure it out pretty soon.

At one point about 15 pages ago I thought he was also concerned about you.

I read the back and forth between you two with great interest. It didn't quite resolve.

The answer to Berserker's riddle is probably "chainsaw defense" or something of that ilk in the Big Book of Scum Tells.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Fuck it, let's go.

VOTE: Caster

Money where your mouth is, Caster lovers.

At this point, though Avenger's definitely not my first pick, I don't care that much as long as it doesn't go to someone outside the current top 3. Not enough to move, anyway. My vote is where my heart is.

[Servant Alter Ego]

ffs I'm terrible with pronouns. I'm sorry, Gentlebeings.

[Servant Alter Ego]

I thought it was because it broke that most sacred of trusts. You don't interfere with other players when they're hunting. If rider has partners I don't think he would have an easy time writing about them so I wanted to try for that.

I can see that as your motivation for 802. But that's not how I read 804, especially in the moment. It felt like a post moon caster pile-on, which is why I snarked at it.

I'm admittedly protective of townreads. Unless they transform into not-townreads. And I feel like there's been enough suspicion on Rider that some folks are jumping on the hype train. This is not a sense I can document yet (mostly because I'm working through other stuff about the game rn and I want to complete that while I have some passion about it). Don't ask me who I think is train-jumping. When/if I have data to back up my gut, I'll share it. And if the data doesn't back up my gut I'll share that as well.

[Servant Alter Ego]

What are your reads, currently?

I townread you and assassin. I scumread moon cancer and shielder. I do not have much of an opinion on anyone else.

this is interesting because i scumread archer and assassin and to some extent moon cancer, so one scum in each bucket of a scums reads? hmm

i feel like caster is scum. i also think that foreigner is scummy for driving paranoia in townies.

Did any of your earlier scumreads change? change in intensity? How would you rank your scumreads?

[Servant Alter Ego]

There's like 4 people explicitly saying they think Rider is scum or at least not a town read lol

The rest have either called Rider a town read or not commented on Rider's alignment

It just so happens that two of those people are among the loudest (Avenger, Assassin) and one of those people is the coolest and most awesomest (me).

Your read weighs most heavily on my mind fwiw. I really want to drop what I'm doing and chase after this, but what I'm working on is turning out to be pretty helpful to me and I'd love to have it fairly complete before we enter the next phase.

[Servant Alter Ego]

*shrug*

If you're looking for something in the game thread about how my read developed, I feel like you're going to be disappointed.

Much like the direction of, say, my Assassin read, you're probably just going to have to attempt to read between the lines for now until I feel like giving more explanation.

I know your read progressions aren't in the thread. Sometimes I see a few words between the lines, but I don't expect to be able reverse engineer your reads with so little to go on. What I can do is look at the basis of MY reads and make sure I haven't missed something.

With your Assassin read change, I'm thinking "I got there first!"

[Servant Alter Ego]

this sequence is interesting. shading a good post by berserker, then as an afterthought adding some attempt at LAMIST that makes no sense from an actual town mindset. if youre town why would you think scum would want you mastered? or who would the scum on that wagon be?

Who are you talking about in the first sentence? And who are you talking about in the second one?

[Servant Alter Ego]

Your read weighs most heavily on my mind fwiw. I really want to drop what I'm doing and chase after this, but what I'm working on is turning out to be pretty helpful to me and I'd love to have it fairly complete before we enter the next phase.

What is it about Moon Cancer that makes you give him so much credence? Am I missing something?

It's hard to explain. I think they are town, and based on how they're approaching the game and what they

have

put into the thread, there are some really deep depths to their thoughts where I'm still stuck at close to surface level because of how difficult the avatars and names make it to hold together coherent gestalts of players' stances. I don't dislike the mechanics talk, but it adds another few layers to the cognitive load because there are different worlds being described by different players.

I wish I had been taking detailed notes from the get-go. I'm at 9 pages in a Word document in less than 2 days and this pace is killing me. I haven't done this kind of note-taking about a game in I don't know when.

[Servant Alter Ego]

I know your read progressions aren't in the thread. Sometimes I see a few words between the lines, but I don't expect to be able reverse engineer your reads with so little to go on.

Why are we collectively okay with this

That's a question that demands a collective answer.

For myself, I'm ok with it in this phase because the only thing to someone to influence is my master ability vote, and that vote has been surprisingly impervious to anything but my own grasp of the gamestate and my confidence in the reads on players I'm willing to vote. When I need solid reads on everyone because we're voting to eliminate, then I will need lots of details. But, tbh, in an anonymous game there is always going to be stuff that's locked away, and I have to respect that.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Why are we collectively okay with this

I'm not, particularly, but I realized about 10 pages ago the futility of trying to get anything out of them until we're in a gamestate where we can apply meaningful pressure.

out of assassin, avenger, and caster i'd still like assassin
avenger inspires confidence, but caster does not

Go find 2 people to vote Assassin then (not including me and Assassin)

It's hard to explain. I think they are town, and based on how they're approaching the game and what they

have

put into the thread, there are some really deep depths to their thoughts where I'm still stuck at close to surface level because of how difficult the avatars and names make it to hold together coherent gestalts of players' stances. I don't dislike the mechanics talk, but it adds another few layers to the cognitive load because there are different worlds being described by different players.

I wish I had been taking detailed notes from the get-go. I'm at 9 pages in a Word document in less than 2 days and this pace is killing me. I haven't done this kind of note-taking about a game in I don't know when.

Show me where you're getting this "deep deep thoughts" from. Please.

Pedit: Caster, you realize you're actually the top right now. 5 you, 4 for Assassin and Avenger

Can this wait? One more project and it's going to be headasplody.

[Servant Alter Ego]

There's 21 hours left and I'm going to sleep soon. So I guess I'll make a final pitch.



Don't let the scum team get their pick.

@Shielder. I see. Can you explain why-in your own reasoning- me asking you what your read of me is, is suspicious?

Have you said who you think the scum team's pick is?

[Servant Alter Ego]

It's pretty clear?

1. I stated that I would take control of the game away from them and stated confidently I'm a good choice for master.
2. Caster has not (the devil they don't know) or he's scum either way.
3. Assassin said he didn't not want it. Assassin is voting me. But no votes peeled off and followed him.

Yeah, that's one universe. Another universe is scum don't value whatever the buffs are as much as they value a team of 4, and they want the least dangerous looking town player (from their perspective) to get the buff.

The only universe I don't believe in is one where scum don't care at all who gets the buff.

The three players I most want to have a consensus with are each voting a different player.

This shakes me a little.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Your read weighs most heavily on my mind fwiw. I really want to drop what I'm doing and chase after this, but what I'm working on is turning out to be pretty helpful to me and I'd love to have it fairly complete before we enter the next phase.

What is it about Moon Cancer that makes you give him so much credence? Am I missing something?

I'm going to try to make this more reality based and leave out the mystical beings that talk to me via the filling in my left top molar.

• I'm townreading them
  
• They're clearly thinking circles around me in terms of setup spec and digging for setup hints from the mod (boy howdy did I get nowhere with my mod questions about my role).
  
• I think they're teamhunting (something I'm not even close to thinking about yet)
  
• They, for some reason, don't have you as town.
  
• You had concerns about how little of substance they were putting into the game thread initially
  
• So did I
  
• I got more comfortable with their play and feel way less paranoid about it as I started to see why their approach to the mechanics make sense. To some degree.
  
• Meanwhile, I don't think you've reached that level of comfort with them.
  
• And they haven't reached a townread of you.

This makes me want to go over everything again and be sure I haven't missed something about both of you.

How are you reading them?

[Servant Alter Ego]

I will throw you a bone and say I think Rider's read progression on more than just Avenger is odd (that one was just more jarring than some others I've been monitoring, like Rider's Assassin read). And that I agree with Lancer's point about signal to noise re:Rider.

Though speaking of Rider, I just realised I made a note that I wanted to know what Rider was alluding to in #225 with "it's something I'm keeping an eye on."

Probably should have asked about that a while back but eh, weekend happened.

I'm liking Lancer for town. Going back over the iso after all the talk died down reset me back to my original thoughts on this slot. There's just a lot of good solid town stuff in their posts. They tend to do that reverse thing, where the vote comes first and then the reasoning, but the reasoning is there.

I agree Rider's progressions aren't well explained in some areas, 308 and 314 were the most detailed info about reads, I think.

I still want to hear one of these days why you thought there were scummy associations between Archer and me.

[Servant Alter Ego]

I meant Saber's point. Getting my pointy weapon wires crossed.

Been there done that.

[Servant Alter Ego]

For a while yet. Maybe 45 minutes to an hour.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Mostly I just want to know how you're reading them and if you think their comments about your progressions hold water, or are fair?

I've just started to go through Caster's reads progressions. Do you have any opinions about 199 and 204?

[Servant Alter Ego]

Yeah, 208.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Moon Cancer, I'd like to know what you thought of 199, too.

[Servant Alter Ego]

I'm tripping going through this iso. like up to 249 I'm just...what the hell?

I am indeed using Mastermaker to sort unknowns, yes. To be clear, I do have a bias toward unknowns on the townier side of things - hence the "posi-null lean" comment while vote-supporting Alter Ego - but I would prefer an unknown to someone I'm pretty sure will flip town

This is an awful position. Just elect the person who's going to get killed night 1 so they can't be killed night 1. This is the most obvious thing in the world, wake up.

They initially wanted to vote Archer or me (or themselves) Killed night 1? Really?

[Servant Alter Ego]

Y'all don't leave me alone in this thread. I need a reality check.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Pedit: Alter, I'm not sure what you're saying, but I'm pretty sure Caster is saying "vote the towniest person so they don't die N1"?

If that's what they were saying it's an incredible oversimplification. Towniest and on the wrong track, or influencable is not going to be N1K'd. Most dangerous looking, on the right track, possibly crumbing a doomsday weapon, etc. That gets N1K'd.

I don't think there's an apparent threat to scum of that magnitude in the game at this point, but still. This is why I'm torn about the trade-off of a guaranteed day 2 for a formidable player versus the damage they can do to scum later in the game.

At that point in the game, AT BEST, having Archer and me as the players he was willing to vote was blind to the game state.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Maybe I'll feel better after I finish looking at their progression. It's going to have to wait until the morning.

Thanks for chatting about Moon Cancer with me.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Pedit: Alter, I'm not sure what you're saying, but I'm pretty sure Caster is saying "vote the towniest person so they don't die N1"?

If that's what they were saying it's an incredible oversimplification.

Towniest and on the wrong track, or influencable is not going to be N1K'd. Most dangerous looking, on the right track, possibly crumbing a doomsday weapon, etc. That gets N1K'd.

I don't think there's an apparent threat to scum of that magnitude in the game at this point, but still.

This is why I'm torn about the trade-off of a guaranteed day 2 for a formidable player versus the damage they can do to scum later in the game.

At that point in the game, AT BEST, having Archer and me as the players he was willing to vote was blind to the game state.

I agree with the bolded. The vast oversimplification was probably my fault in part, because I was tired and like "What's alter's problem with that?" I still don't see your problem with Caster though, because Caster had quite the difficult time getting into the game (hell, I had to beat a read out of him) and I think you're trying to apply his actions in too broad a context. He's not playing the macro game; he's going with people he feels comfortable calling town at the time. Sure, in the game state at that point, neither you or Archer were getting ganked. But from his perspective it's the best he's got. If anything, it show's he's pretty damn town, because he's down here in the weeds with the rest of us. Scum watch things from on high because they have the information and pick their shots. Town gotta roll through the muck until they figure it out.

Pedit lmao Caster making my point in fewer words
Pedit2 Caster, do you see more Assassin votes coming from somewhere? You're still top. If Assassin vote swaps to himself it's a tie between you two.

I've had a very longstanding townread on Caster. Rereading those first few posts in iso last night tripped a wire, but 1) I was probably overreacting. and 2) much further into his iso just reinforces why he's been a townread for so long. It's not the first time I've looked at his iso.

I'm stressing about the way the wagons have shifted. And, I'm reassessing the top 3 wagons under time pressure.

----------------

I live in fire country and there's a chance I may lose power today/tonight as a fire preventative. I'm keeping everything charged, especially things with hotspot capability. I don't think I'll go dark in the thread today, but it is a possibility. I'm safe and I expect to stay that way, so no worries there.

[Servant Alter Ego]

so: i'm okay with voting avenger because i've liked some of the posts he made recently, i have a vague ~gamestate~ feeling off the wagon on him that he might be town, and

it would save me the trouble of having to actually read him

if people are still uneasy about voting avenger (and, like, i get it)

, i'll take it, or i'd be okay with berserker, because i am reasonably confident their attitude toward the master vote is more likely to come from town (want it -> don't care anymore -> actually maybe i should take it, i don't trust you people). plus, i have the feeling they're a player who likes to go deep as scum and wouldn't want to knock themself out so early.

Is this where your head is still currently at re Avenger? Later in the thread it looked like your read might have gone a little further townward with the PT Post Count Angleshoot Incident.

If Avenger is not a strong townread, what factors make them a good choice for the master upgrade despite that?

[Servant Alter Ego]

AE who are you planning on voting, I don't think Assassin is happening anymore, this site isn't known for last minute wagon shifts that are actually good for town.
I could be persuaded to vote for Avenger if you want but I'd like to see you commit to one of those wagons.

Still frantically researching. I will say that for the first time this whole phase, I'm seriously considering voting Avenger. I feel like voting Caster is somewhat like voting myself, except instead of knowing my alignment I'm strongly assuming Caster's. My master buff, beyond the selection phase stuff about buffing two other players, isn't a huge boost for town (I think...). From stuff Caster has said, the same applies to their buff. Avenger is claiming that their buff is potentially terrible for scum. (I guess, depending on how they use it?)

Anyway. Hoping to get far enough through another iso or two to make a decision soon.

[Servant Alter Ego]

I've spent some very condensed, intense time getting to know Avenger's ISO better.

I didn't find much this time that I hadn't found the last time I read through, though there's a little more data. All in all, I feel he's town, though I'm a little concerned about some of his reads, and I don't get as strong a townsense from Avenger as I have Assassin and Caster (last night's freakout notwithstanding).

I could say a lot, mostly pro, but here are a couple of highlights.

There's a discredited scumtell that goes to the effect of giving a replace-in a rundown of what's happened in the game so far is scummy. There is opportunity to shape narrative in doing that. And Avenger's agenda is already something of an narrative shaper. But, I don't feel like the rundown was skewed, so fuck that scumtell. You have to read the rundown for selectivity and then try to discern what's behind it if there is selectivity. So fuck that scumtell. The main issue I have with giving a rundown is that you don't get to see as much about what the player focuses on in their own catchup. Anyway, once again, the rundown didn't read as skewed.

In 343 I felt like the Assassin read was a little hedgy (that's rich coming from me btw). The Rider read in the same post parallels some of the concerns that Moon Cancer expressed last night. I disagreed with that read at the time and still do, but I can see why someone could get there from Rider's iso.

I didn't come out of this with what I was hoping for: "Yep, yep, yep I'm totally comfortable with voting here".

Since the air quality is way too bad for a quick walk, I'm gonna go pace the floors for a bit.

Pedit2 Caster, do you see more Assassin votes coming from somewhere? You're still top. If Assassin vote swaps to himself it's a tie between you two.

Well, I see one coming from me, and I think he'd be irrational not to vote himself at some point. I only see a few people being explicitly not okay with him, while we just spent a couple pages having berserker, ae, and i think others take dumps on me.

@avenger: I agree that there is a possibility scum would support me due to my lack of leadership qualities, if all three of us are town.. But no, I couldn't care less that Assassin is voting you.

It wasn't a dump on you. More of a late night freakout. Probably some fire anxiety in the mix, too.

pedit crosspost hell up in here.

[Servant Alter Ego]

@Avenger: I don't think Caster is the towniest townie to ever town (if I did I'd be less interested in his flip) but I get more opinions and feel more hunting genuineness from their posts than from yours.

I commented on self-voting because I have a vote. I did mention it would be exceedingly unlikely that I would become a viable candidate, but if it happens, I'll self-vote.

Pedit: I have stuff to do tonight but I suppose I can at least try to give your Iso another look-over if I have the time.

@Saber,
1. That's pretty untrue. His opinions can be counted on one hand. I think part of his appeal is because he doesn't have enough in regards to opinion or reads, both Assassin and I have put down scum reads on stronger players than shielder,

which makes people invested in seeing both of us lose from either alignment

. That alone should be pretty obvious.

...what? That's like saying that a town player's overriding concern is not getting mis elimed? It's a factor, yeah, but the overriding factor is town winning.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Still frantically researching. I will say that for the first time this whole phase, I'm seriously considering voting Avenger. I feel like voting Caster is somewhat like voting myself, except instead of knowing my alignment I'm strongly assuming Caster's. My master buff, beyond the selection phase stuff about buffing two other players, isn't a huge boost for town (I think...). From stuff Caster has said, the same applies to their buff. Avenger is claiming that their buff is potentially terrible for scum. (I guess, depending on how they use it?)

Anyway. Hoping to get far enough through another iso or two to make a decision soon.

I'd sooner see you vote Caster and Caster use his own discretion on whether or not to Master-ize Avenger. I trust Caster's judgment far more when it comes to handing out upgrades. Or just in general.

Also, did you get everything you needed from me about Moon Cancer? I would really hate for a rift to grow between us over a disagreement on one read.

Don't worry about a single disagreement. My greater concern is succumbing to free-floating paranoia about one or more of my reads and being cut adrift from from the moorings I've tried to establish.

I got enough about Moon Cancer for now. I hope I'm right about them. Their play would be incredibly cheeky, coming from scum. When they do show a tiny bit of their hand, it looks like a town mindset to me. Like sharing something from their read basis on you last night. Whether right or wrong, it was a chink in the featureless wall!

I'm trusting to a fault, all around. Until I'm not.

How disappointed would you be if I vote Avenger?

[Servant Alter Ego]

sup

I put a question in the thread for you after you left.

[Servant Alter Ego]

never mind...

[Servant Alter Ego]

and avenger has said their ability is good, they claim to be confident in their ability to lead and scumhunt

This is where I'm at. Still, feels a little precarious.

[Servant Alter Ego]

@Rider: Oh, I see. I thought there was a hint of omgus there and was wondering why it didn't apply to assassin who had a more neutral take on you.

@Foreigner: Spicy town reads are not spicy scum reads.

@AE: If you're being scum read and you're town why would you trust someone with master who isn't able to read you? What's to say the rest of their reads aren't just as bad? It applies whether they're scum or town imo.

Sometimes this is exactly how I feel whether the misread is on me, or is a presumed misread on someone I'm townreading. But often as not, the real difference in our grasp of the game comes down to another bad read or assumption that has warped one or both of our understandings of the game state. Some games are complicated as fuck. So, once again, it's not the overriding concern. If Assassin were scumreading me, for instance, I'd still want them to have the buff because based on what I've seen so far I feel like whatever they'd have wrong, they'd self correct with more data. Including their read if me.

[Servant Alter Ego]

If Assassin decides to go for it, I'm staying where I'm at. That is where my heart is.

[Servant Alter Ego]

above was to Rider 1025

[Servant Alter Ego]

Can we not do Assassin, lol.

That's the actual worst outcome on the board IMO.

Thank you. I for reals appreciate that you say it this time without thunderously proclaiming everyone on the assassin wagon is scum.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Can we not do Assassin, lol.

That's the actual worst outcome on the board IMO.

Thank you. I for reals appreciate that you say it this time without thunderously proclaiming everyone on the assassin wagon is scum.

Obviously not everyone on the wagon is scum, and I didn't say that.

I said the wagon is bad news, mostly because it contains nearly 0 of my town reads.

also IDGAF if you appreciate it or not.

The sentiment remains. I feel like there are some reads overlap of mine vs your list from early this morning. Maybe there's more right than wrong in the overlap. One can hope! I hate to just totally discount a townread because of reads disagreements and playstyle clashes.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Can we not do Assassin, lol.

That's the actual worst outcome on the board IMO.

Thank you. I for reals appreciate that you say it this time without thunderously proclaiming everyone on the assassin wagon is scum.

Obviously not everyone on the wagon is scum, and I didn't say that.

I said the wagon is bad news, mostly because it contains nearly 0 of my town reads.

also IDGAF if you appreciate it or not.

The sentiment remains. I feel like there are some reads overlap of mine vs your list from early this morning. Maybe there's more right than wrong in the overlap. One can hope! I hate to just totally discount a townread because of reads disagreements and playstyle clashes.

You wanna be townie friends?

Help me stop Assassin from winning for that 2 hours left self vote.

I might trust you after that.

If you trusted me for flipping on your command, that would actually freak me out harder than anything. Eventually flipping hard on a loud townie's command is/was kinda classic me-scum.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Guys assassin is really townie, I think we should give him the master vote.
Pedit: foreigner doesn’t even want it!

Thiiis gives me pause. Are you tryinna grab towncred?

[Servant Alter Ego]

Can we not do Assassin, lol.

That's the actual worst outcome on the board IMO.

Thank you. I for reals appreciate that you say it this time without thunderously proclaiming everyone on the assassin wagon is scum.

Obviously not everyone on the wagon is scum, and I didn't say that.

I said the wagon is bad news, mostly because it contains nearly 0 of my town reads.

also IDGAF if you appreciate it or not.

The sentiment remains. I feel like there are some reads overlap of mine vs your list from early this morning. Maybe there's more right than wrong in the overlap. One can hope! I hate to just totally discount a townread because of reads disagreements and playstyle clashes.

You wanna be townie friends?

Help me stop Assassin from winning for that 2 hours left self vote.

I might trust you after that.

If you trusted me for flipping on your command, that would actually freak me out harder than anything. Eventually flipping hard on a loud townie's command is/was kinda classic me-scum.

If you knew who I was, you'd learn quickly it's not really trust and more "if you're doing the things I want you to do, you exist within my circle of trust because you're killing who I want to kill".

I like to think I learned this trick from Fate. It doesn't matter who you work with, town or scum, if scum want to help you do pro town things more power to them.

And if they don't they can go into the "fuck you die" pile.

Hmmm. Pre-Serene Fate was before my time. If I had excess brain capacity I'd think harder about this. Thanks for the playstyle unload, though. It pretty much confirms my earlier impressions.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Assassin (6):

Moon Cancer

, Alter Ego,

Lancer

,

Rider

,

Assassin

, Archer
Avenger (4):

Avenger

,

Berserker

, Beast, Saber

Darker blue = stronger townreads.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Let me know when you're done with Archer, Alter.

Archer isn't changing my mind. They're either jumping in gung ho like this to scare people off the wagon, or, like I said, going for the towncred if (as I believe with all my heart) Assassin survives this trial by fire and doesn't slink off to the scum PT rubbing their hands in unholy glee. Or, yeah it could be town trollery but it's coming at a very bad time.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Assassin (6):

Moon Cancer

, Alter Ego,

Lancer

,

Rider

,

Assassin

, Archer
Avenger (4):

Avenger

,

Berserker

, Beast, Saber

Darker blue = stronger townreads.

Fucks sakes we might genuinely be on the same page minus Assassin.

All those dark blue names are town for me.

But you're NOT town for me.

... so i'm either totally directed in a bad way, or you're town?

or option 3 you're distancing but day 1 no connections let's not go down that path...

I'm going to keep calling it a playstyle clash as long as I townread you.

[Servant Alter Ego]

That's part of why I said no to the imps clamoring at me to go for the buff. I don't have a plan. I generally don't have plans. Just reads.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Where did Avenger go?

[Servant Alter Ego]

Vaguely. Sorry.

I was feeling bad about you.

Thoughts on the last few pages? Is it all sound and fury until we see results?

[Servant Alter Ego]

I think I'm going to need a day to compose myself.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Assume Shielder and Archer are scum - what do you think of the fact that there's zero resistance to them essentially being the first two people gone from this game?

(Just a general question to anyone who cares to think about it. I have already formed my own opinions about what this says for how scum is approaching the game at the moment.)

I wondered when I read this if the rng gods have been unkind to the scum team and they wound up without a powerful leader.

If you're right, then where do you think defenses have been mounted?

[Servant Alter Ego]

I want to hear from Berserker before we go too far in running someone up. We were close in our reads of the composition of the two top wagons. Assassin's flip makes me feel even more confident about those reads.

p-edit. I'm here.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Moon Cancer - Town
Lancer - Town
Beast - Town
Ruler - Scum

[Servant Alter Ego]

Town
Town
Town
Scum

[Servant Alter Ego]

Oh wait Shielder - scum.

[Servant Alter Ego]

All town

[Servant Alter Ego]

How many people actually think Ruler is scum in a scenario where a gun isn't being held to your head?

Looking for people actively scum reading that slot rathet than just not town reading.

Yeah, I don't have a full blown scumread on Ruler. In fact somewhere in my notes I told myself that at the time, although there weren't many posts to go by, I liked their fluidity.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Gonna say right now that something unpleasant happens when Shielder gets lynched.

[Servant Alter Ego]

OH DAMN I USED THAT WORD.

SORRY.

I should go to sleep.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Before I get into reading the 5-6 pages since day start. AE can I get your thoughts on the eod movement onto Assassin (haven't read how that developed yet either).

I'm specifically interested in what you think it means for the three slots vying for master and the slots that moved votes. I want to pick someone else's brain on the macro.

You're probably picking the wrong brain. The big uptick in activity was scary, but the master buff decision is huge, and is going to tilt the playing board heavily for the rest of the game.

Mostly I'm just relieved it worked out. I was so close to moving my vote to Avenger when Assassin came back. Assassin had been my pick since about mid-phase, I think. The slow roll flavor reveal gave me way too much time to regret my life choices.

I want to go back through all that movement with a calmer mind and compare it to prior stances this morning. I remember only one strong assassin scumread off the top of my head, and that player (Berserker) definitely didn't change their stance. Sounds like you want to do similar. Maybe some notes comparisons in a few hours?

--------------------

I like the discussion pointing up town interpretations of Shielder's behavior. Even though they were one of my scumreads coming out of the last phase, there's a low hanging fruit feel to the stances on them. And also on Archer to some extent. Both deserve deeper thoughts than I gave them when townhunting was my priority.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Before I get into reading the 5-6 pages since day start. AE can I get your thoughts on the eod movement onto Assassin (haven't read how that developed yet either).

I'm specifically interested in what you think it means for the three slots vying for master and the slots that moved votes. I want to pick someone else's brain on the macro.

Question: When did you read the EOD movement stuff?

[Servant Alter Ego]

Well, piss.

My sudden realization was that Avenger's overenthusiasm for getting voted Master made sense as a townie effort to scare mafia into thinking he had a particularly useful upgrade (on top of already being threateningly loud). My hope was that he would actually get it and flip town and we'd have the opportunity to go back and look at who townread Avenger but found excuses to not vote for him, as I imagine that would be a prime mafia approach to handling him. This possibility (combined with the general opportunity to decisively sort him) was worth the risk he might be mafia himself, so I pulled the trigger. Then it ended up not working out anyway.

I will probably go back and do this anyway, because it could still be useful info, but its impact is lessened by not having his alignment flipped. That investigation is not happening until at least tomorrow, though, as bed is rapidly approaching.

Pedit @Assassin: I can try to stick around, but no guarantees on length.

Prior to this phase, you've mostly given stances about players you're null-town reading, in line with your master selection strategy. What are your thoughts about other players?

[Servant Alter Ego]

(That last line in #856 is just to help you understand why you may have the false impression that there's "been enough suspicion" of Rider when it's actually a relatively small group of people.)

Why did you assume I have a false impression and not a made-up one?

i would be worried berserker was trying to dismantle consensus if i wasn't fairly sure her early play made her town

I concur.

----------------------------

I'm in the middle of an extremely nitpicky note-taking reread of this game, and when I finish that, I'm going to try to do some progression analysis wrt to votes.

I hope to complete both before we're into day 1 proper.

yeah this exactly. and assassin making this post suggests that assassin is indeed town. but the people assassin is blocing with are very scummy so i guess assassin just got in with a bad crowd? i still wont be voting assassin today. but in a way assassin being town makes things simpler because there is one too many scum i feel like. one confused townie in the mix makes things make sense suddenly.

Who did you think Assassin was blocing with at this time?

It's pretty clear?

1. I stated that I would take control of the game away from them and stated confidently I'm a good choice for master.
2. Caster has not (the devil they don't know) or he's scum either way.
3. Assassin said he didn't not want it. Assassin is voting me. But no votes peeled off and followed him.

What are your thoughts about these 3 points now? (If you've already talked about this since PhaseShift, I'll probably find it in a bit!)

[Servant Alter Ego]

I haz a sad, but I'm more concerned about burning posts than getting every question into the game the moment it occurs to me.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Before I get into reading the 5-6 pages since day start. AE can I get your thoughts on the eod movement onto Assassin (haven't read how that developed yet either).

I'm specifically interested in what you think it means for the three slots vying for master and the slots that moved votes. I want to pick someone else's brain on the macro.

There was one vote that went from Caster to Avenger without progression in the thread prior to the vote. That was Saber's vote in 1031. They gave a partial explanation a few posts after the vote, and then more in their first post after the flip. I really need more from them about how they're processing the game.

The first vote that occurred in the midst of Berserker's posts about Assassin self voting making them likely scum and should set off alarms of every townie in earshot was Archer. The Assassin wagon revival would have happened anyway IMO, but Archer's vote started breathing life back into it. They'd been voting Assassin since 189. Tonewise, Archer was as insistent that Assassin was town as Berserker was insistent Assassin was scum.

Is there a problem with that? For me there is, but I'm not as jumpy as I was while Archer's posts were hitting the thread yesterday. Up to that point, Archer hadn't really struck me as someone who'd go toe-to-toe with the loudest and most polarized player in the game over one of their reads. Keep the read, yeah. Vote the player, yeah. Argue against the loud voice? Not so sure. It seems at least a little more likely that Archer would be arguing (my impression: without much depth) for town Assassin, knowing the read was correct than risk getting into a match with Berserker over a read that could be wrong.

Lancer also vocally wanted votes to swing back to Assassin, and was vocal about it before Assassin self-voted in 1034. Of all the stances during those votes Archer and Lancer felt the most like they could be coordinated. But, I have a weak townread on Lancer and the correlations between their posts during the timeframe totally could be coincidental.

The other large-ish set of correlations in that period were me/rider/Foreigner. And these really stand out to me because at the time I felt like I was potentially wielding 2 to 3 votes not just my own. I didn't expect or try to talk Rider into considering Avenger. Foreigner wanted to move to Avenger if I did (it's a little more complicated than that). I felt a lot of pressure to be right if I moved my vote to Avenger. I'd just gotten to the point of steeling my nerves to change my vote when Assassin showed up again.

What have you gleaned from your reread?

[Servant Alter Ego]

@Ruler

I drew the line of what to call late vote changes at the point where Assassin voted Avenger on Sunday in my time zone. That's when Assassin's wagon became non-viable unless he kick-started it himself. From that perspective Rider's choices make sense to me. Follow their progression on who they were willing to vote. It's not a huge ISO.

Foreigner also wanted Assassin for the buff and went to Caster only after Assassin voted Avenger.

In some ways, Caster vs Avenger is more interesting than either of those wagons vs Assassin.

We're all different and consider ourselves vulnerable to different kinds of scum-hunting. Assassin is the player I would have least wanted to have the buff assuming all 3 main wagons are town. Their style of scumhunting, along with keeping reads fairly close early on during the previous phase and the charismatic effect they were having on discourse (and later votes) would be a lot harder for scum-me to avoid or influence.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Then you need to read it again.

[Servant Alter Ego]

What's it like being invisible Beast?

Oh, it's alright. Cabd gave me this unique avatar.

Pretty neat. What's it do?

Let's people know I'm a unique butterfly in their world of plain gold. No one noticed it though.

Shame...

Expressions of envy are kinda gauche, though.

Where's your head at regarding the exciting finale to the master phase?

[Servant Alter Ego]

What's it like being invisible Beast?

Oh, it's alright. Cabd gave me this unique avatar.

Pretty neat. What's it do?

Let's people know I'm a unique butterfly in their world of plain gold. No one noticed it though.

Shame...

Expressions of envy are kinda gauche, though.

Where's your head at regarding the exciting finale to the master phase?

Concerning myself, not feeling great about being wrong. Concerning the way people finished that wagon, avenger's hammer was maybe not the towniest thing but I still feel good about his slot. If I continue to view Archer as the scum I believe he is, I think his vote which seemed to shift the momentum a bit, could be motivated by a desire to give master to the person who didn't want it because they read that as the person with a weaker power. Avenger was flat out saying at the time his power was the cats pajamas so they wouldn't want to give it to him of course. (This theory assumes an Avenger town alignment).


What are your thoughts on shielders request to be spared until second elim?


Side note: I've only just caught on to the L word being a no no word now, I was confused earlier but I get it now. Sorry if I slip on it any further after this.

It makes me twitch more than I probably would in a game that doesn't hint at many strange mechanics.

[Servant Alter Ego]

I should have prefaced the question with I am willing to give him that half day. Don't want to give the impression I was feeling out the way the wind is blowing. As much as I enjoy mechanic theorizing, I'm pretty sure cabd isn't going to screw us over with a scum power that is somehow more beneficial if eliminated second in the day.

Probably, but there's only one game day where there's a "second in the day", so if some hypothetical ability resolves in twilight, what would happen if the elimination happened in the middle of the day?

Anyway, regardless of alignment, wanting more time to naturally just do town stuff and get townread for it is motivation enough for asking to go second, I guess. Maybe.

~adjusts tinfoil hat to a jaunty angle~

[Servant Alter Ego]

It's amusing that the only person with a town read on Archer is being scum-read by Archer.

Are you interested in sharing thoughts about Ruler?

[Servant Alter Ego]

That can wait, btw. You look busy.

[Servant Alter Ego]

I've been looking at and thinking about players I think could move above my line of lynchability today, trying on the idea that they might be town.

Archer isn't one of them.

The only positive thing I found about his progression through the final day of the master vote was that while Berserker was furiously working to stop your wagon going through, Archer was pushing the opposite direction. The push didn't have a lot of substance, but it was there. And that put him in direct conflict with a forceful player I townread. That seemed a little non-self-preservationist. But, scum-Archer would know you would flip town and maybe expect a little towncred?

I'm really curious why your wagon didn't get more pushback, even in the event all 3 viable wagons were town wagons.

[Servant Alter Ego]

I used that word again. :/

[Servant Alter Ego]

Are you interested in sharing thoughts about Ruler?

Not really.

I spent like an hour and a page of my PT mulling over his ISO today.

The overall conclusion I reached was there are a bunch of what I'd consider town indicators but if even I ignore those, I still see nothing he's done yet as more likely to come from scum than town. That's why I was interested in anyone actually scum-reading him as opposed to a 'gun to head' read.

I'm probably not going to talk about the specifics here unless he actually gets run up.

There was one thing that stood out to me, though they did explain it after the fact. They switched their vote to Caster before the running around with hair on fire part of the the wagon-building began. The only time they'd mentioned Caster before that was to say Caster was one of the players they did not want to give the master ability to. There was nothing in their iso to indicate that their opinion of Caster had changed. A few posts later they gave some reasoning, and then amended that reasoning in their first post of Day 1.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Ok, from the gist of the last two pages, we're picking between Archer and shielder. Who is defending which slot? How close are we to deadline? Why is each a topic of discussion?

Not a lot of defense going on. This is a double day and we have a confirmed town, and we have about 7+ days until Night Phase. I don't envy you having to get up to speed on an anon game, but you have time to do so.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Everything I hoped a confirmed town could be. /extreme buddying

[Servant Alter Ego]

Caster, do you have thoughts about how the wagons built during the last couple days?

Also:

Something annoying has happened with regard to my role. >:/

When did this happen?

[Servant Alter Ego]

Should say last couple days of the master vote.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Caster, do you have thoughts about how the wagons built during the last couple days?

Also:

Something annoying has happened with regard to my role. >:/

When did this happen?

I just went back to the end of day and I find Ruler to be the most suspicious voter. If we assume all 3 wagons were on town, and consider the idea that scum may have decided to support me as the least threatening, he is the prime candidate for having done so, as he voted me for no reason and his prior interaction with me seemed to consist mostly of disliking or scumreading me. I wish he had answered Assassin's question, as if he had scumread me there I would be able to lock in a scumread on him now.

It happened during Day 1. I don't think I can go much deeper without revealing too much. I just want it to be known now as a hedge against what happened potentially looking awfully convenient for me if I didn't mention it until days from now.

Thanks, I was curious if it was something that happened at the start of day 1 or of it happened close to the time when you posted it. Not knowing for sure isn't the end of the world.

pedit Ah! Even more thanks!

[Servant Alter Ego]

I think I'm going to need a day to compose myself.

This seems a little exaggerated, so it makes me a little less happy about Alter Ego. Maybe the feeling was happiness, but that doesn't require a day to get composed.

It was a half-joke. I was so relieved to see the rest of the flavor and flip that it canceled out my being pissed at our Benevolent Mod for putting us through that.

If you're right, then where do you think defenses have been mounted?

What do you mean by defenses?

I meant scum subtly protecting each other by pushing a town player, distancing, diverting, etc., from parts of the discussions they wouldn't want us dwelling on. I'm not reliable at spotting that kind of stuff without a scum flip (more often jump at a townie who's just in the wrong place at the wrong time), but some people are. And I feel like Moon Cancer can think on that level what with the book they're writing in their PT. But, that's not where they were going with the post I responded to.

I am a little confused why people seem to think Shielder and I were scum. I can't really comment on what the situation is like if we are both scum, but if we are both town, then scum would probably be feeling good about themselves entering D1. That makes me think the quick changing wagons were more town driven unless scum are master planners and already chose and pocketed their candidate.

Definitely something to think about when we figure out what world we inhabit.

My sudden realization was that Avenger's overenthusiasm for getting voted Master made sense as a townie effort to scare mafia into thinking he had a particularly useful upgrade (on top of already being threateningly loud). My hope was that he would actually get it and flip town and we'd have the opportunity to go back and look at who townread Avenger but found excuses to not vote for him, as I imagine that would be a prime mafia approach to handling him. This possibility (combined with the general opportunity to decisively sort him) was worth the risk he might be mafia himself, so I pulled the trigger. Then it ended up not working out anyway.

My eyes sorta glazed over this the first few times, but the motivation behind voting Avenger seems townie. I do agree that mafia would take a backseat to him unless they were strong.

I like that you picked this post to comment on. It's on my list of posts to keep thinking about.

It seems at least a little more likely that Archer would be arguing (my impression: without much depth) for town Assassin, knowing the read was correct than risk getting into a match with Berserker over a read that could be wrong.

I don't get this. I also don't tend to explain my reads much, but just act upon them.

I was noting that your arguments for town Assassin didn't have any depth.

Archer isn't one of them.

well I'm town...

:/

[Servant Alter Ego]

Is it messed up that I thought Cabd had like a role card for every servant

I kinda doubt this is the case.

[Servant Alter Ego]

This game is weird because I have 2 alt guesses, but both of them are players that I don't think play on site right now.
Does anyone know if Cabd sent out invites for this game?

I was not expecting to have any guesses, but there is one player this game whose posting style is distinctive enough that I put a name to it.

Do we want a full, full claim in this situation, name, attributes etc?
@Foreigner.

I will be honest here: there is nothing Archer could claim at this point in time that would change my mind. I also think name and attributes are likely to be null, we were given our servant selection in pregame, before the roles and alignment were generated, so it's not like scum would need to fakeclaim.


Once again, if I have erred here, I am terribly sorry. Archer has had the sword of damocles hanging over their head for days now, and I have helped straightforwardly railroad them early into this day phase without a chance for a proper defense. This must suck, regardless of their alignment this game. Having just typed out an entire solve in my notes that is dependent on this flip, I will look like a complete dunce after the game ends if it immediately falls apart here. But if I'm wrong it means I need a slap in the face and a drastic reassessment of my entire view of the game.

VOTE: Archer

Are you ready for Day 1 Part 1 to end? If you've got more stuff you want to do before moving on to Double Day Part 2, I'll hold off.

[Servant Alter Ego]

UNOFFICIAL VOTE COUNT
Accuracy not assured, No Warranty available, Void where prohibited

Archer (6): Beast, Caster, Foreigner, Archer, Avenger, Assassin

8 to Eliminate

[Servant Alter Ego]

VOTE: Archer

L-1

[Servant Alter Ego]

Archer unvoting and then hammer-voting really ramped up my gamespec paranoia.

I'm liking Beast a lot more this phase.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Shielder was setup as a defacto vote for Day 1 through the entire master voting phase. That setup was done by scum. Archer participated in it.

WE ARE NEVER DOING SHIELDER TODAY NO MATTER HOW BAD THEY LOOK.

Shielder is not a vote we even begin to CONSIDER until after Day 2. After Day 3, even, depending on how many scum we murder.

Sure, there are other scum to find.

I don't think the scum team are team players tbh. Archer was pretty much left to rot.

Agree.

So, does that mean the scum team is focused on the night game? Hard to believe given we just elimed what looks to be their strongman-ish equivalent.

[Servant Alter Ego]

It's pretty obvious Cabd didn't leave them with fake role claims.
Archer's was lazily modified.

This take really, Really REALLY runs counter to everything I know/have observed about Cabd game designs and in fact I think the Tales of Vesperia game I read during the previous phase directly contradicts this idea. When I'm not half-asleep I'll go look for the example I'm pretty sure I remember from that game and link it here.

------------------------

I think it's time to reveal this.

During this day phase I have been neighborized. By a player I think is town.

That is all.

For now.

[Servant Alter Ego]

It's pretty obvious Cabd didn't leave them with fake role claims.
Archer's was lazily modified.

This take really, Really REALLY runs counter to everything I know/have observed about Cabd game designs and in fact I think the Tales of Vesperia game I read during the previous phase directly contradicts this idea. When I'm not half-asleep I'll go look for the example I'm pretty sure I remember from that game and link it here.

------------------------

I think it's time to reveal this.

During this day phase I have been neighborized. By a player I think is town.

That is all.

For now.

Skip it, give me bare essentials. Has he provided fake claims before?

Yes to fake claims.

If I remember Vesperia correctly, and I hope I do since I read it just a week ago, there was a role copier and a godfather in that game. The rolecopier would have (maybe did????) receive the godfather's fake claim role. The gofather decided to modify the fake claim he got in his role PM, and the modified fake claim would have gone to the role copier. I can't remember if this came out in the postgame as an explanation of a possible game reality or if it actually occurred. Hence my wanting to reread and be absolutely sure.

[Servant Alter Ego]

He's a huge fucking troll

Confirming!

[Servant Alter Ego]

I don't think Shielder is lying about being scum read a lot as town, or lying about anything regarding his playstyle really.

I do think Shielder is using that as a crutch though (because it's true

when he is town

, it's easier to spew true things about it).

Oh my dear, dear Moon Cancer you just nailed my year 1 scumgame.

Does Shielder seem that new to the game to you?

Maybe? I dunno.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Godfather Role PM from Vesperia

Ragou

"It's the privilege of my exalted station to dispel such boredom with the...help of the common people."

Your role is Mafia-Aligned Modified Godfather

Ah, a position of power. Good thing you totally abuse the heck out of that. Isn't diplomatic immunity great? You will appear as town to all cop investigations. In addition, you may choose what you appear to be when role copped. If you don't specify anything, your fakeclaim below will be used by default.

Your partners are Prohawk and Discode. Your quicktopic is below. (Daytalk is active by default)

http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/9JcMsqdnMvsFC

You win when all non-mafia players are dead, and at least one mafia player is alive; or when preventing such from occurring is impossible. Please confirm with a reply PM stating your role and alignment.

Spoiler: fakeclaim

Patty Fluer

"I wasn't attacked! We were playing!"

Your role is Town-Aligned Even-Night Hider

You're older than you look, honest. WAAAAAAY older. Now don't mind me, go over there and hide, I know you want to.

Each even-numbered night, you may PM me a name. You will hide behind that player. If they are town aligned, great. If they're not, well, I hope you enjoy the feeling of a knife in your ribs...

You win when all anti-town players are dead, and at least one town player is left alive. Please confirm with a reply PM stating your role and alignment.

Subject: Mini 1551: Tales of Vesperia Mafia (Game Over)

Saki, Karol Capel the Town aligned modified Hated, Killed Night 4.


Moogle Dance Troupe, Raven the Town-aligned 3-shot Role Copier, Endgamed Night 4.

Orcinus_theoriginal, Ragou the modified godfather (Showing as even night hider), survives and wins.

Note the "showing" part.


Subject: Mini 1551: Tales of Vesperia Mafia (Game Over)

The mod was trolling. Haven't you /met/ him?

Quoted just because.

[Servant Alter Ego]

I should say:

I expect scum have fake role pms or can ask for them/ask to have them modified.

I don't expect this game to push the limits toward bastard quite as hard as Vesperia did just because I think Cabd's mod philosophy has changed over the years. This game ran in 2014.

[Servant Alter Ego]

4. I guess to add, his positioning on not voting me was pretty much "ditto" to what archer's position was. It seemed like fairly coordinated messaging to me. Which might be scum PT indicative.
That said. I could be hilariously wrong.

I've gotten a similar parallelism vibe about the early scumreads on me that both Archer and Lancer expressed in the first 200-ish posts. It was interesting that Archer commented to Lancer about Lancer's scumread of me, and then clarified what he meant by one of his fos-posts. I want to read that as coordination, but I'm not sure. Maybe without the clarification post it would read more that way.

Moon Cancer noticing that and thinking it tied Archer and me as scum/scum is interesting more in a "someone picked up on how weird that was" way than in a "this makes me suspicious of them" way.

Both Archer and Lancer got some stick about their reactions to the foreigner/berserker 1v1. You pushed Archer for reasons why he townread both, but picked Assassin for the vote. And Assassin pushed Lancer for not wanting to read the 1v1. Another parallel in the early game.

I really need to stop townreading strangers for scumreading me about early day 1 posts.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Lancer can you talk about your current scumreads?

[Servant Alter Ego]

I've been working on that too. Just about ready to give up at least for the day. I felt like I was confirming my biases along with it just being difficult to switch back and forth to get enough context. I get why people think bacon stripes are scummy.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Before I get into reading the 5-6 pages since day start. AE can I get your thoughts on the eod movement onto Assassin (haven't read how that developed yet either).

I'm specifically interested in what you think it means for the three slots vying for master and the slots that moved votes. I want to pick someone else's brain on the macro.

There was one vote that went from Caster to Avenger without progression in the thread prior to the vote. That was Saber's vote in 1031. They gave a partial explanation a few posts after the vote, and then more in their first post after the flip. I really need more from them about how they're processing the game.

The first vote that occurred in the midst of Berserker's posts about Assassin self voting making them likely scum and should set off alarms of every townie in earshot was Archer. The Assassin wagon revival would have happened anyway IMO, but Archer's vote started breathing life back into it. They'd been voting Assassin since 189. Tonewise, Archer was as insistent that Assassin was town as Berserker was insistent Assassin was scum.

Is there a problem with that? For me there is, but I'm not as jumpy as I was while Archer's posts were hitting the thread yesterday. Up to that point, Archer hadn't really struck me as someone who'd go toe-to-toe with the loudest and most polarized player in the game over one of their reads. Keep the read, yeah. Vote the player, yeah. Argue against the loud voice? Not so sure. It seems at least a little more likely that Archer would be arguing (my impression: without much depth) for town Assassin, knowing the read was correct than risk getting into a match with Berserker over a read that could be wrong.

Lancer also vocally wanted votes to swing back to Assassin, and was vocal about it before Assassin self-voted in 1034. Of all the stances during those votes Archer and Lancer felt the most like they could be coordinated. But, I have a weak townread on Lancer and the correlations between their posts during the timeframe totally could be coincidental.

The other large-ish set of correlations in that period were me/rider/Foreigner. And these really stand out to me because at the time I felt like I was potentially wielding 2 to 3 votes not just my own. I didn't expect or try to talk Rider into considering Avenger. Foreigner wanted to move to Avenger if I did (it's a little more complicated than that). I felt a lot of pressure to be right if I moved my vote to Avenger. I'd just gotten to the point of steeling my nerves to change my vote when Assassin showed up again.

What have you gleaned from your reread?

This might get kind of Wall-y.

So I'll preface all of this by saying I wasn't really town leaning Assassin until his reaction gambit on Archer. But enough people were townreading that slot that I figured he must have done some really townie shit before my rep in. But he brought up something I thought was interesting in 709-711.

Specifically his theory on scum participation in the master process. So I want to say part of what I was doing was to sort assassin but he never called me out on it which was kind of disappointing.

I figured if his assertion was accurate then scum wouldn't really shuffle the board themselves but Assassin being on the money would likely force them to master someone less able to connect the dots. So I picked Caster to offer as a viable alternate option.

I was mostly interested in your thoughts on rider / foreigner since that's who bit on Caster being viable. I'm not sure if foreigner followed up on their analysis of anti-assassin wagon slots that they used to explain their vote but I'll read through day start in a bit.

I'm thinking the pivot to assassin might just be a play to avoid making an enemy of assassin who would be easier to appease for two days and then get rid of than have him as a likely non lynchable variable.

With that said id agree there is a degree of coordination involved in Assassin being mastered and I would have given Archer a ton of points if they stuck to Avenger. Avenger comes out looking really townie by virtue of his static wagon I believe.

That's a good question. Foreigner said it was because Assassin didn't want it.
Part of it might be that Rider and Caster merely got the cold shoulder from assassin.

I voted Caster because I thought I could talk Berserker, Alter Ego, and Foreigner into swapping over and ending this interminable phase, not because my townread on Assassin dipped. Sadly, this did not work out. However, I have no reason to go back to Assassin because that wagon now looks dead.

I'm hesitant to group Rider with foreigner with this in mind. But I also don't get Riders movement if he felt Caster was town enough to vote over assassin but assassin was also town. Barring any eod shenanigans with Avenger (opposed to mastering Avenger) then it's a 50/50 between his two townreads OR more likely Berserker converts to Caster to avoid Assassin getting the upgrade.

Does Archer's flip change your thoughts about how the master vote played out?

[Servant Alter Ego]

I was planning to come in here with all kinds of ammunition from their iso and question the hell out of Caster. But, most if not all of those questions have been asked and answered. The answers aren't reassuring. His posts are full of irritation and resentment, and it feels like I'd be kicking a puppy.

peedit bears?

[Servant Alter Ego]

Players of interest. This is a null-to-scum pile. I've tried to force them into an order from least to most concerning, but I can't. Especially the middle bunch.

• Moon Cancer - They probably don't belong here but I've got blanks in my understanding of their stances that I need to work out
  
• Saber - low poster. they've given some rationale for their positioning through the late master vote phase. I don't buy it wholesale.
  
• Caster - the also ran wagon that might have happened if Assassin hadn't decided to go for it. They seem totally knocked off balance so far in this phase. There are oddities and discrepancies in their reads, and I don't think they can ever be explained/resolved to anyone's satisfaction. It comes down to whether the reaction to being in this position feels town or scum.
  
• Shielder - they were at rock bottom at the beginning of this day phase. I thought their Assassin vote was scum cheekily throwing in the towel at the time, though I didn't understand why they'd give up so quickly.
  
• Beast - low poster trending more active. huge energy change coming into day 1, especially around the Archer wagon.
  
• Ruler - low poster. also some odd positioning in the late voting.
  
• Lancer - so much entanglement/parallels with Archer during day 1. so much angst over the difficulties of keeping everthing properly binned given the avs and account names. Yeah it's not easy but they've played this up as an excuse over and over again. Here and there, some decent content that kept me with a lean-town read for most of the first phase.

My goal is to keep analyzing and moving people out of this pile and into my town grouping. This is the opposite problem from what I usually have: too many townreads. Maybe that's a good sign and I'm not over-trusting this game.

This whole west coast on fire thing is distracting the hell out of me. I'm spending a lot of time reading isos and taking notes but it's not getting me anywhere useful. That's my problem, not any of yours. Hoping I'll be more myself this weekend.

[Servant Alter Ego]

You haven't lost me yet, anyway. You've made a lot of posts, and you've had fairly well defined stances, mostly. Your GTH list doesn't match the stances and the progressions to those stances earlier in the game. But, you know that.

There are these two themes in your body of work: Why aren't we voting Foreigner? in the first phase, and the appearance of having been knocked sideways by Berserker's push in this phase.

The first looks a little overdone reading your iso. Like, you had to know why people weren't voting for Foreigner.

pedit I see you don't feel as discombobulated as I thought. I'll adjust that dial in my reading of your posts.

[Servant Alter Ego]

I'm pretty happy with how Assassin's working out. I particularly like the way he's setting things up to draw stances out of players.

[Servant Alter Ego]

I would be mildly surprised if Caster is scum.

Way too many town indicators in that ISO.

Only mildly?

[Servant Alter Ego]

Eh, there are three things that bother me.

A lot of his opinions that he announces are really clear cut town stuff.
HedgeWizard.
Only wagon on master phase that ~could~ be on scum at this point.

Also Lancer mentioned that he didn't want to stand out if caster won and that hit my paranoia button a little (the button is stuck and held down).

Two kind of narratives/teams forming in my head.
1.Defender might be scum with rider.
2. Lancer might be scum with Caster.

mutually exclusive.

When I flip, remember that I said Rider is town. This is not about my role card. It's about the strength of my "bet the farm" reads in games. I've had two reads that strong in this game.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Also, who are you referring to as "Defender"?

[Servant Alter Ego]

When I flip, remember that I said Rider is town. This is not about my role card. It's about the strength of my "bet the farm" reads in games. I've had two reads that strong in this game.

That's very sweet of you <3

Who's the other one?

They're now our IC. Why do you think I was so hesitant to move my vote after they voted Avenger?

[Servant Alter Ego]

I knew your read on their slot was strong, but not THAT strong. When did the read gain "bet the farm" status, and why? If it's already in your ISO, just point me in the general direction.

The read just kept strengthening throughout the first phase. And I never got a sense they were getting too widely scumread so no reason to telegraph that. It was definitely part of my line in the sand with Berserker after Assassin self-voted.

[Servant Alter Ego]

The point where I asked Assassin how they feel about townblocking, and when I joked I'd follow them around like a puppy are around the time when the read was pretty damn seriously town. From there, I never doubted the read, but I did think about how fucked town would be if scum-Assassin got the master upgrade. They're by all, and I mean all, indications the kind of player I worried about sitting in the Scum PT, directing their forces, with no way for town get them fully out of the game.

[Servant Alter Ego]

Lancer's my first choice.

There's another bit of master-wagon analysis I want to do today. I need to stop running around, sit down and get it done. Whether I find something curious or not, I'll post about it.