Mini #564 - Mafia in Crubtown - Game Over

[darkdude]

<1>d<6>

Hm how do you use the dice?

[darkdude]

Well help a newb out here....I see people using some sort of mechanism when doing a random vote but I can't figure it out....

[darkdude]

Original Roll String: 1d12

1 12-Sided Dice: (3) = 3

8 is... windkirby

windkirby

[darkdude]

Hm wth? my dice changed between preview and submission lol

Well in that case 2 would be

Unvote windkirby Vote Cephrir

[darkdude]

like a purposeful crap-logic to be amusing and point out how ridiculous joke-voting was at the same time.

Could be an excuse for scum bandwagoning...

[darkdude]

All reasons could be excuses. You could be scum first THEN try to find a "random/funny" reason to bandwagon someone. The nature of the reason is irrelevant. The fact is that it could be a cover up for scum.

[darkdude]

unless you can pinpoint what about one action is scummier than another. And that you have not answered, darkdude.

That's what I'm trying to say. A bunch of people voted for kirby, which is slightly more suspicious than normal.

[darkdude]

Exactly. At this point there is nothing to do other than try to probe into all posts seeing if the scum could have slipped anywhere. Saying "don't try" certainly CANNOT help. Unless you have a better suggestion of course...

[darkdude]

If we don't read into random votes, what else do you suggest we do? There ISN'T anything else to read from is there....

[darkdude]

Yeah I guess you're right guys. This new lead seems much more promising to look into.

Yeah I read the whole damned paragraph. Seems like scum.

I don't think I'll vote just yet though. Also it could be just inexperience in general instead of scumming... a townie could freak out in a similar way.

[darkdude]

Yeah I guess you're right guys. This new lead seems much more promising to look into.

Yeah I read the whole damned paragraph. Seems like scum.

I don't think I'll vote just yet though. Also it could be just inexperience in general instead of scumming... a townie could freak out in a similar way.

How could anyone miss this post?

This is basically darkdude throwing in a little something to show that he has suspicions for windkirby and then covering his tracks by not voting and saying windkirby could be a townie. Maybe he already knows windkirby is a townie. Supporting a wagon from the sidelines but not committing yourself to it is a really scummy thing to do.

vote darkdude

I guess it does look suspicious, but at the time I was still thinking about the initial joke votes and didn't pay attention to the latest post.

I admit that I do not read every single sentence written here...it's just too much. My time is limited.

[darkdude]

You still didn't address the issue yet though. What I'm saying is you supported the wagon on windkirby but you stay away from it yourself by not voting and saying something like "he might be a townie".

As said by many others, there was not enough evidence for a serious vote. Voting is not a prerequisite for suspicion.

[darkdude]

You didn't have enough evidence, yet you were convinced he seemed like scum from reading that one particular post from windkirby. You thought he's scum but you didn't vote for him, instead choosing to keep your vote on the player who is attacking windkirby of being scum. That is suspicious to me.

First of all your accusation does not hold. I did not ever point a finger at anyone in particular. Rather, I first suspected a statement excusing a joke vote that to me seemed like a bandwagon attempt. Even if there were enough evidence to suggest a bandwagon, we would still need to figure out who to take out first (bandwagon is a GROUP action). We did not even get to that phase, instead we were caught in debating on the validity of my claim. Then the really defensive post came up, so I diverted by efforts elsewhere.

I don't recall saying "THIS GUY IS SCUM". I was giving reasons to why the joke votes seemed suspicious.

Now please state why we shouldn't lynch YOU for making baseless accusations trying to get ME lynched.

[darkdude]

Yeah I am aware I'm turning your accusation around. Because for some reason you really want to get my lynched.

"My efforts" means my suspicions and deductions based on the events here. Obviously I have not found anything close to a smoking gun yet otherwise I would have been less ambiguous. I don't see why you can't accept the fact that suggesting a scummy action is valid even if it is not very specific; how the hell else are you going to start a game?

My points of defense are:

1. no specific target of suspicion from me until last post, contrary to what you claim
2. was merely asking around to see if others shared my opinion on joke votes

Well now you got me convinced that you are scum. So I'll

unvote

and

vote: YvonneSeer

.

One of 3 possible outcomes:

1. I am scum, which means you are right.
2. I am innocent and the ones accusing me are scum
3. we are all innocent, outplayed by mafia

Of course I know that it is one of the latter 2, but saying that is useless. I will be cleared of suspicion if I do indeed get lynched, so I'm just saying the remaining town should keep that in mind.

[darkdude]

Just saw above post (it was made during the time I wrote the last one)

darkdude: Why don't you want to vote?

I didn't vote because it would be pointless to suggest people are bandwagoning if I joined in myself. But now I did just vote

[darkdude]

The point of voting for someone is to get them lynched correct? So when I vote, I

want

that person to gete lynched. If someone votes for me I see it the same way.

[darkdude]

OMGUS-ed Yvonne

I'm new around here, so please explain that acronym.

She seems like scum simply because from my point of view she is making baseless accusations and directing all the attention of the town on me. I already explained as much as I can; I can't force people to see things my way. If you have a specific list of things you wish for me to elaborate on, please write.

[darkdude]

@darkdude Is this your 1st game here?

Here yes. Mafia no.

Firstly, you need to understand that just because you don't agree with my argument, doesn't mean it's baseless.

The thing I said baseless was your point about me urging others to vote for windkirby but not voting myself. That is untrue. The rest is subjective.

being all overdefensive after only having one vote on you.

I've seem much more genuine freak outs during my short time here....

[darkdude]

Why is it baseless if you just restated the base

Because I didn't want anyone to vote. I started my comment on joke voting in general, and kept it on until now. I did not once say something along the lines of

"he's using jokes as an excuse lynch this guy".

[darkdude]

That doesn't answer my question.

Your question was why I think Yvonne's accusation is baseless correct?

If you look back....

Someone said something about joke votes
I said it could be a cover up tactic for scum to bandwagon
Someone said I was reading into it too much
I posted something, then noticed something else came up in the last few posts
So I wrote again and said we should now focus on the newest suspicious looking post instead.

That's all.

[darkdude]

Perhaps defending myself further would only add to the suspicion but precisely my point:

isnt this doing the same thing darkdude was originally deemed suspicious for......throwing suspicion on a wagon but not voting?

From my perspective Yvonne successfully made me a magnet for all suspicions and made all else seem less important. And all I did was suggest the possibility of a cover up.

From an objective point of view though, I realize that I'm going to get lynched sooner or later in a couple of days. Even if I survive this day (and the following night) I would only draw more suspicion and eventually get lynched anyways. I only hope that if it comes to that the remaining towns should remember the other suspicious persons here.....

[darkdude]

You're being defensive and using as your defense that you know you're not scum, which is of absolutely no help to us because you could easily be lying.

Exactly. That is the problem and the nature of the game. The ironic thing is that I can prove my point IF you lynch me.

[darkdude]

You say I've been diverting all the town's attention to you. That's not even what's happening since mozsuggs here is managing to grab the spotlight all by himself.

Um excuse me I believe that he became a major suspect AFTER he posted a self claimed "random bandwagon vote". Which was in turn after my last post.

As for the other comment on how my posts seem calculated, all I can say is
I never saw it that way.

Do you want us to write on impulse or something?

[darkdude]

Well in all honesty I did not read all of the posts either, because towards the end of day 1 mozsugs posted way too much for me to read . I don't think you can blame VoD for that.

Yvonne is doc.....Damn I'm lost. No one but myself seem the most suspicious at the moment The scum did a good job on framing me....

[darkdude]

Guys I didn't realize that that was the hammer

Well really, that's why I say you guys should have taken votes more seriously.

What do you mean by this, YvonneSeer was the one to first draw suspicion to you and stay with pressure on you and the only others to really have a go at you were zediccus and viking.

Now that my mortal enemy of the game is dead, the logical conclusion would be that I had killed her. Yvonne really didn't suspect anyone else but me as far as I remember.

[darkdude]

but I have a weird feeling about him introducing that.

I know...I concluded it was best for me to take initiative anyways. Otherwise I'll definitely seem like scum.

[darkdude]

The guy posted way too much. He almost had a "SCUM HERE --->" sign by his name.

HOWEVER, reading stuff over yet again I find VoD just slightly suspicious, again for using jokes for the deciding vote.

[darkdude]

I agree that I don't like how windkirby says Mozsuggs had a confessional collapse, and how quantum called him a suicide. I think suicide is only used when you vote yourself -- which mozsuggs never did.

Agreed. Yet I also think that the last votes on someone has the most value....obviously no one would fear their death due to a single vote.

Does anyone have an estimate on how many scum there are? I don't know if there's a standard around here or something....

[darkdude]

3 to 4 scum would be standard in a mini, but on rare occasions there are only 2 scum. We only had one kill last night but that doesn't necessarily mean only one anti-town entity. It could be one group of 2, one group of 3, one group of 4, two groups of 2, a group of 2 and an SK or a group of 3 and an SK. Did i miss any possibilities?

I guess there would be 4 anti town in this game then, since we have power roles like Doctor and probably a Cop.

In that case we have to lynch a scum today right? If we miss and kill another townie Day 3 might be scum majority. Or we can wait today out to see who the mafia kills tonight if we really can't decide.

That said I agree with Pink Puppy. I want VoD to claim.

[darkdude]

Oh well this community doesn't like talking without voting? Well then I will vote.

Vote: VoD

[darkdude]

I think VoD should claim to at least give us something to work on. Right now I feel as if we've been going over the same thing again for weeks. VoD seems most suspicious right now, so I think it's a good idea for me to ask for a claim. The resulting reactions could be what we need.

Perhaps for some reason I am not reading well enough, but all I see is defense after defense. Everything in mafia is defendable, and WIFOM is so common that it makes little sense not to act on something just because it could go on both ways. In this situation I believe we have to think simple and avoid over analyzing things. Because the way I see it is that the mafia is currently confusing the town by turning down one lynch proposal after another. I guess that's what happens when you lose 3 town in a row. Possibly one third of the players here could be scum. This would explain the lack of decisions.

[darkdude]

Could there be masons?

[darkdude]

And what, are we supposed to ignore what people say in their own defense? Lesse here, you were under suspicion at one point, right? Maybe we should bring it back up and disregard completely anything you or anyone else said defending you.

I don't think VoD has a good defense. He's basically saying that he made a mistake by accident and we should ignore it. To me the best way to deal with this is to push for more information.

And you guys seem to be over concerned about revealing a power role. Isn't there double to triple the probability that we could be pressuring a scum to a cop? The reluctance is already seeming suspicious in my eyes.

[darkdude]

That's not what you said. You said, "anything in mafia is defendable", etc. To me, that means the same as "defenses should be ignored", and that's ridiculous.

Perhaps to you, but what I meant was that just because VoD said he "put the best possible defense" doesn't mean it makes him less suspicious.

And I want people to think for themselves, even if it disagrees with me.

Well now if I change my mind and follow your advice I'll be more scummy right?

[darkdude]

He's not saying we should ignore it, he's just saying we should keep other things in mind, which we should. There's really no additional defense he could give and we should keep it in mind in case he does anything else. He concedes that.

I really could not find anyone more suspicious than he was. Also I don't think one could easily conclude whether something like more information based on claim could help or not. In sincerely believe that the chances are for the better if we get more information, but if you deduce the opposite that is still fine. However you can't discredit my reasoning because this isn't something like math; the answer is arbitrary. The unknown is unaccountable and to me it seems the most promising.

[darkdude]

You know who's more suspicious than he was? You. This is something like math. There are probabilities involved, and you have to consider them when making a decision.

But from my perspective, since I know that I am pro town, I can 100% eliminate this possibility. Of course there is no conclusive proof which I can present to you, especially since you have made a case on me already which I cannot defend whether I am actually pro town or not; if I stay my opinion I'll get suspicion, if I change my opinion I'll get suspected for conforming in order to seem less suspicious.

About the math part:

Yes this does deal with probability and calculations. But remember the unknown factor I was talking about? How do you solve a system with two different variables given only one equation?

Yes I concur that from an objective point of view I do seem the most suspicious out of all players right now. But you cannot use that as a case against me; for as mentioned before I alone know that I am protown, therefore ignoring my own suspicious actions is fully justified. Of course I try not to be suspicious anyways so that the town would not need to unnecessarily lose a member.

Lynch me if you will then. If we are lucky there are less than 4 scum so you can survive another day.

[darkdude]

= "I have no defense and refuse to do anything about it"

More like "Your attack can make any town into scum" but whatever.

Now that you're under pressure, you're starting to sound like mozsuggs.

I don't think he used clear logic, at least without burying it under 20~ posts.

[darkdude]

Townies don't need to worry about being seen as scum. Try to find who scum is and you will help town win. Worry overmuch about suspicion on you and you will just serve to clog up the works. I don't know whether you're scum or not; I'm getting some scum vibes, but the fact that people are suspicious of you DOES NOT MEAN YOU WILL GET LYNCHED! So just put your head on your shoulders and PLAY THE GAME.

Well yes I know, but given the situation I think the priority right now is that I should avoid getting lynched, because if town loses 2 members by tomorrow it could be disastrous if there were 4 scum. Now the problem is that I can't defend myself! I know all about game logic; I've played it long enough online and offline, but my current situation is the result of some accumulation of inexperience in terms of the community culture here in general.

Yeah, if you're looking for a defense then there's the other one. I'm just caught in a not so newb friendly situation. The conformity argument really disables any other defenses I may have had.

It must be the thought of self defense overwhelming my other thoughts, because I fail to see other suspicious people. So sorry can't help town there, until my own mess is cleared. One detail I do see though - Akona's words sound less likely to come from scum than the others.

By the way I just remembered to elaborate on this:

"I'm the most suspicious player, but you can't use that as a case against me because I'm town"

No I'm saying that you can't use the fact that I overlooked my own suspicion as a case. Obviously you can suspect me due to scummy play, but Quantum Fruit stated that I was suspicious due to the fact that I pressured VoD while ignoring that I was also a good suspect (at least that's what I made of her statement). So simplified:

Case = I point fingers at people while ignoring possible signs of scum from myself
Counter = I did not need to concentrate on details against me if I were pro town

[darkdude]

Well you found people suspicious on day one and me on day two but now you say you fail to see suspicious people...look carefuly over day one and day two I'm sure you can find something, and to say sorry can't help town is very bad. I can uderstand this untill your own mess has cleared but try and balance this.

Like I said before I thought Yvonne was scum because of the hellbent way she wanted me lynched, but now that she is dead and proven to be doctor I'm really lost.

Is it now a crime to admit that you don't have a clue about who the scum are? I'm not saying that I'm not trying though. Just that I don't have much success. This is partially due to the fact that everyone's focusing on me now, so there's not much to work on, as said I won't try to investigate myself. If I were not the lone suspect perhaps things would be better....

And lastly you say about Akonas you think he is not very scummy at all compared to others so you obviously think of some "others" as scum or using scummy words, would you let me know if this is sort of what you ment?

This is because he's trying to help me play good as town, which is obviously a very pro town thing to do. But this is not subject to as much WIFOM as other obvious pro town actions as I'm in a huge spiral down to the lynching stage already, so a regular scum could have just left me to die without seeming suspicious in any way.

[darkdude]

What's the conformity argument?

Originally I was pushing VoD because of my suspicions of his actions. Then I was told to "put my vote where my mouth was", so I did that, but then got criticized for conceding so easily. Then multiple people put up good reasons as to why I shouldn't have asked VoD to claim, and that doing so makes me scummy. If I stand my point I will appear scummy, and if I change my mind I'll still be scummy.

[darkdude]

Cephrir continues to rub me the wrong way, by saying that pressuring a player is useless and retarded.

I see, especially when the guys are pressuring me....

However I also think you are a bit suspicioius for lurking, and coming out immediately when lurking is brought up.

[darkdude]

Talitha has been low-volume so far, but when she does say things, they make sense to me.

I remembered once when she also said that she'll contribute some more later but never did.

I think that's just a tad suspicious. Could easily be lack of time though.

Also, since you guys convinced me not to pressure VoD any more for now I'll

Unvote

[darkdude]

When did I do that? The way you accused VoD was when there was a bandwagon already forming and it seemed as though you were doing that to divert attention from yourself.

I really could not find anyone more suspicious than he was.

@darkdude: You know who's more suspicious than he was? You.

[darkdude]

The thing I was interested in while being under suspcion was that I had become suspicious of my accusors. Now this I'm sure is natural if you are town and find you accusors arguments and constant pressure rather wierd behaviour or in my case I felt the attention that was being paid to me was too much and the "evidence" of my scumminess was rather light, then how do you try and hunt scum in that person without it apearing as an OMGUS kinda thing.

Yeah this happened to me and Yvonne. When you're pro town and someone's constantly calling you scum you tend to think that way....

[darkdude]

Personally that is usually more convincing to me than a defense for a certain action. If someone under fire can make good arguments (for their innocence) BUT more importantly why someone else is scum, I'm more inclined to believe that they might be innocent (I know ppl can buss, but that's not the first thing I look for or worry about. I think bussing is less common than some ppl think).

As if I could find something wrong when everyone is saying one and the same thing....that is why I said it would have been okay to suspect me as prime suspect if you had a secondary one to see what I can do too.

Well regardless I think that phase is over. I will

vote: zeddicus

to see some activity from him...

[darkdude]

@darkdude: But but but...you're bandwagoning again! VoD just voted zeddicus before you...Please do your own thinking. It's not exactly a scum-tell that you don't (a tiny bit of a newbie scum tell because obviously if you're agreeing with someone else, you won't look so suspicious since they believe what you believe, etc.), but it's frustrating.

You know after that long discussion I don't really care that much anymore...I would just repeat myself if I wrote anything.

I simply believe we should pressure lurkers and inactives a bit.

By your logic (and those of a few others) I should have the following vote restrictions?

1. Cannot vote for a player when someone else already has voted for them
2. Cannot FOS without voting
3. If the above two rules are pointed out, I cannot change my mind
4. Breaking any of the above is deemed scummy
5. The only "safe" vote is when against a player who is found to be most likely scum by the town already

Isn't that a bit much?

I have the feeling you're doing the same thing I was accused of...pointing fingers around at people with minimal evidence. Personally I don't think it is that scummy, but since you people say so....

Get my point?

[darkdude]

Gosh, you remind me of people who just enjoy whining.

Yeah I guess I am whining. I'm kind of pissed that Quantum Fruit made a pointless statement regarding my vote. Because she could have complained about any of the "rules" I listed above.

The player we were talking about pressuring or not pressuring was obviously VoD. You seem overly worried about being pressured... do you have an explanation for why that is, DD?

That quote you took out was out of context. I meant that back then when lots of people had votes on me some players said stuff along the lines of "he's gonna crack under pressure!!! scum!!". This would be inconsistent if someone else was pressured and failed to properly defend/freaked out, yet no one sees it as suspicious.

That said, I did not like the pressure when people voted for me for the aforementioned reasons. Losing another member could have been really bad for town, so I put defending myself into priority. Perhaps it was a mistake as some pointed out, but that was what I did.

VoD & Darkdude,
Please also answer above question re: Zeddicus, seeing as you are both voting for him.

Wait...what is the explanation for this? Triple post and lots of rephrasing? It was obvious that you were asking me a question, so I do not see the need for this. Seems really weird behavior to me. Perhaps I will be considered doing a OMGUS for this, but I think following your absence and consequent peculiar timing of posts (most of the time immediately after someone points out inactivity) deserves my questioning.

[darkdude]

I don't want him lynched, I want activity from him. Otherwise I might as well ask for him to be mod killed.

Seems like everyone is looking WAY TOO MUCH into my votes. I'm a simple person, you know!

[darkdude]

@darkdude: What pointless statement did I make? Also, the only way we can figure anything out is by looking way too much into everything (including votes).

I concur, but my previous statement was a defense and not a suggestion that we should not look hard.

Darkdude, VoD, why are you guys being so damn hard on Talitha?

Why do you think I'm being hard? You yourself just pointed out the need to look into everything. I wasn't even suspicious of her. Just pointed out the weird behaviour of Talitha - triple posting on one subject, repeating herself when there is no need.

Now we have two weird cases:

Talitha's repetitive posts
Quantum Fruit's paradox

[darkdude]

Okay just did a quick reread of recent posts again, and now I officially suspect Talitha and Quantum Fruit.

Most obvious is the contradiction I mentioned above. Sounds like weird scum logic to me.

Unvote

Vote: QuantumFruit

[darkdude]

Yay, finally I feel as if I'm onto something!

Um, where did I repeat myself? Apart from directing the same question to 3 different players who were all voting or threatening to vote for someone who is not here.... I don't get it. Back up your assertions please, Darkdude.

You asked me to clarify on something, which is perfectly fine, then made a second post to address VoD, AND THEN used a third post to say "ya that's what I wrote so please answer".

I don't really think this is scummy, but it was just plain weird. And with QF's reaction things are getting weirder...

@darkdude: What is a paradox? (Don't be cheeky and define paradox.) The only thing I am defending Talitha in is that she has a busy life and you and VoD were being harsh.

I named your case the paradox, but by definition it was more of a simple contradiction.

the only way we can figure anything out is by looking way too much into everything (including votes).

Darkdude, VoD, why are you guys being so damn hard on Talitha?

You say it is good to look into everything, then go on immediately to contradict yourself saying we shouldn't suspect (I myself was not really suspecting at the moment) because it is mean. First of all, I see ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE of either me or VoD being mean to Talitha. I based my questioning on an obvious abnormality, and wasn't even suspicious of scummy actions. Plus I think I was quite polite. I've seen many questions on less evidence, and I am 100% sure you have too. So this really makes no sense and seems like scum logic. VoD (read his later posts) is right; I feel you're for some reason really protective of her.

Just noticed that Darkdude's "reread of recent posts", including the time taken to post the results took 3 minutes.

Yeah, I just noticed the obvious suspicion which QF caught for herself when I pressed the submit button. You guys all know that moment of enlightenment when you press the magic button right?

That's part of the reason editing is not allowed...scum usually find their own mistakes after they post.

And based on that I'm scum...?

As I said I'm still new, but wouldn't THIS be considered OMGUS???

If you can find me directly accuse Talitha of being scum please quote it for me

Same here.

[darkdude]

I still don't see just HOW THE HELL anyone was mean. Did I say "CLAIM NOW SCUMZORZ!! DIE SCUMZORZ"?

Quote me where I'm being mean to her.

Your argument makes no sense.

I want to quote VoD

So whats next a group hug before the lynching.

Darkdude, I would like you to read my posts in their entirety and not just what is convenient. I already posted where you attempt to build a case against Talitha. (Not that you shouldn't.)

Sincerely sorry, but I addressed the parts I thought were relevant. If you would like me to elaborate please post the specific parts. I'll try to read better.

his most recent post seems to be reaching on the level of detatching one's arm. Since when should a minor contradiction, if that was even what it was, instigate such a confident suspicion of these two characters? Seems very forced.

Nice metaphor. I'm hurt.

I don't know about you but it seems to me this MEAN argument makes no sense at all. First of all no one was mean, and second even if we were not very considerate it would be a normal part of the game. No reason for dismissing evidence.

Furthermore, it is within my experience that most scum would try to appear "nice" in trivial issues like this one. This is definitely not the protown-protown advice/help such as the one given by Akonas.

[darkdude]

You are soooome sure Akonas is town. Based on that one piece of advice he gave you, you're basically deciding he's town and giving him a free pass?

Not dead sure of course, but he has more evidence suggesting he is town than other players (of course, all from my perspective). If I were to put people on a scale of suspicion, QF would be at one end and Akonas would be on the other. That's what I'm saying.

Okay, I'm going to address this finitely and I don't want to come back to this any more. You guys were not being very understanding of Talitha's personal life and that bothered me. That's what was mean.

When did I say "you should drop your life and kids and play mafia"? I only initially suspected something due to her absence, but now that is not even the issue any more. The latest suspicion I had from her was based on that weird posting behaviour. Which in turn makes you suspicious for accusing me of something which no one has done.

[darkdude]

QF, I don't get why posting twice in a row makes DD scum...there's plenty of other things to criticize him on, but IMO, that is not one of them.

Where did she say that?

[darkdude]

Well guess they're painted for NK now anyways.

[darkdude]

When are we going to get the replacement?

[darkdude]

VoD: A weak case? Is that compared to all the other water-tight cases that have been made against players in this game so far?

Perhaps this would be the first one.

I find your logic generally inconsistent. That's all I can say for sure right now, in addition to my suspicions I mentioned earlier.

When is the inactive zeddicus going to get replaced? I hope that guy has more info!

[darkdude]

Cephrir. Yvonne nailed you good in [135], hm?

Wasn't that directed at me?

It's good that we finally have a replacement!

It's not that he was reactive, but he was not proactive-- you can be reactive and proactive, which is what you need to be in order to accomplish anything in this game. And if you don't think it's enough of a scumtell for you to care, good for you. I disagree. If you never really add anything to the game... it's just so easy for scum to slip under everyone's radar like that, and I feel like that's exactly what he did.

I don't think you need to be super aggressive and do really long posts. Picking up inconsistencies and questioning people is good enough, especially if that is one's regular play style. Or perhaps he just didn't find anything worthy to comment on.

Or if he was a pro-town power role this may have been done on purpose.

[darkdude]

It just doesn’t seem to add up with the newbie you’re claiming. Like, consider what you say when QF questioned you:

Perhaps you (and other players brooding over this) misunderstand.

I am no newb in the game of mafia (though some may claim otherwise due to my mistakes so far). I am new only to this forum. The unspoken rules and practices differ even between online mafia sites, I'm sure you know.

They’re not mutually exclusive rationales. I mean, lying + having extra information fits mafia to a tee. For that matter, lying + having extra information + lynching a townsperson.

Hey that's an interesting way of looking at it. Seems like we all missed that aspect the first time. I think we should indeed investigate more on that issue.

And a side note: I'm sorry I don't have enough time for a more detailed post right now. Very busy these days. I'll try to skim over important stuff for now.

[darkdude]

When D2 began, instead of trying to find mafia, you were instead seeing (a) if the nightkill could be traced to you and (b) what you could do to deflect it. Are you saying that, in the medium you usually play in, that is something that a protown player would do? If so, how on earth do you ever find mafia?

Think about this. My best course of action was to clear my name as soon as possible. If I did not say anything, then sooner or later someone would pick up the connection between me and Yvonne's arguing and assume that I killed her. Making it WIFOM at least put that out of the way for the time being, so I could help find scum better.

Townies want to live too!

Anyways, looking at the big picture, I notice a strange phenomenon.

As soon as zeddicus' replacement came in, everyone started defending against Tyger's questioning instead of searching for scum themselves. Tyger has the right to question to catch up on the game, but I don't know why everyone else is idling around. At least that's what seems to me.

[darkdude]

@darkdude: As a replacement, I think EmpTyger has a right to ask for clarification on various matters. You know, because had he been in the game previously, he might have asked then. I don't see how this process detracts from scum-hunting, seeing as how it would help us pick up on things we might have overlooked. Explain your logic.

I don't think it's a bad thing, and already said that he has the right to ask about earlier parts of the game. But we seem to be delaying scum hunting. I just thought I should speak that one out.

[darkdude]

You’re conceding that Cephrir was right about windkirby- but yet you’ve left your vote on Cephrir!

Hey, if you read the last part you would notice that I was not sure whether I should vote for him or not...

On the contrary, I think it is scum-hunting.

I guess it is possible. Depends on one's perspective, I guess. We certainly are talking a lot, and that's a good thing.

[darkdude]

Once more. I want you to name names. Who, specifically, do you feel has been idling around?

I would say everyone. When you came in everyone dropped past suspicions and answered to your questions.

Again, not saying that they shouldn't.

[darkdude]

Also, you appear to skirt around questions fairly heftily. Care to explain this tendency? I don't feel this is particularly helpful for town and I'm not entirely sure why you do this.

I don't know. This part about idling around was written when I just felt like speaking my mind, and it was something I noticed. I never intended for it to be a real help or anything.

[darkdude]

@ I try to, but I still have a lot of work these days...I can only spare time to browse here a few minutes per day for now...

[darkdude]

Whoops that was supposed to be

"@ Pink Puppy"

[darkdude]

You don't know why you said something. You felt like speaking your mind, but you didn't bother thinking it through. And you didn't want to be helpful. Hmm.

Interesting. Early in the game I was also accused on being too "calculated" in my posts.

Does throwing around potential clues not help? When I stated that I noticed the phenomenon, I did not expect anything to come out of it, but I decided to say it anyways because it can't hurt, and could POTENTIALLY be helpful.

I mean, it's not as if everything you say is helpful either. Did you expect that some of your points would be refuted? If so why did you say it in the first place?

Seems to me you're trying to make a nonsensical case based on nothing.

[darkdude]

Well I'm reading this new Cephrir incident and I'm not sure what to think about it at the moment. Seems like PinkPuppy really has reasons to see him as scum, but as Cephrir says in his defense:

Town can not know, too.

I think the general expectation here is that all pro-town players should pick out every little suspicious thing and look for a scum from that. But I am sure there are instances where nothing particularily suspicious is present. In that case you can either say "I don't know" or find some trivial thing to put pressure on. I did both (my note of the incident since replacement was the latter) and both were scummy. So I personally don't think it's quite a valid point. But perhaps I missed something through all that text, as several players (to point out the obvious, windkirby and tyger; you wanted names ) also suspect the same. If I did miss something; some potential scumtell other than "he doesn't know", then please tell me.

[darkdude]

You clearly know what types of things to look for. D1 you were pointing out QF’s “scum bandwagoning”, Yvonne’s “baseless accusations” and “directing attention”, and the holes in mozs’s defense. And then earlier D2 you deduced that you were being framed, and how to make your defense most plausible. And you’ve also pointed out VoD’s taking a deciding vote less than seriously, and the distinction between voting for a claim rather than a lynch, and you’ve lurkerprodded zeddicus. And you’re especially able to play quite fine when it comes to defending yourself, or when you’ve attacked 2 players who, as it turns out, are innocent (that is, Yvonne and mozs; though also from *my* point of view, since *I* know zeddicus’s innocent).

But then every so often you lapse into this unhelpful cluelessness. You quickly resort to a claiming unfamiliarity with the site, and you just make everything out to be so much more hopelessly complicated than it actually is, that you can’t possibly express suspicions.

First of all, thanks for the compliment.

But do you honestly expect people to find those things all the time, with no break in between? And I wasn't using the newbie argument in my last few posts. I was talking specifically about this game. I didn't blame my recent lack of leads on noobishness.

[darkdude]

Well I don't want to join any wagons since I still highly suspect QF...

[darkdude]

dd's latest post almost is enough to make me prefer him to Akonas

What? You just said I was suspicious for not changing my opinion on QF for 7 pages. Now I'm lower on your scumdar?

By the way I still suspect QF because of the previously mentioned things. Cephrir doesn't seem very suspicious to me...yet. QF seems to have sort of decreased her activity when suspicions were cast on Cephrir. But it could be that I'm only noticing this due to my previous suspicions; activity overall was low enough for the mod to issue a warning for deadline.

[darkdude]

Yeah I put "yet" because of your last post where it seemed to contradict the earlier one.

[darkdude]

Darkdude has been putting off some fairly strong tells, and now I'm thinking he's likely scum--he hasn't been doing anything since suspicion shifted a bit away from him.

I think you're right. Recently I've just been watching this Cephrir thing unfold since I wasn't really suspicious of him.

Saying this when the context is yourself and sounding all helpful-ish is weird.

I think it kind of fits his image; remember the last time I said why I thought he was pro-town? It seems like the sort of helpful-ish thing that he would say. Only the last part is kind of weird:

Or if you can't find anything, maybe put it to rest.

That could be interpreted as "if you can't find evidence, don't suspect it anymore" which is weird considering that a gut feeling remains a gut feeling BECAUSE of the fact that it lacks evidence.

[darkdude]

Why are you suspicious of me, darkdude? You mentioned stuff, but it was kind of vague.

Have you forgotten already? Your previous suspicious behaviour such as protecting Talitha and making nonsensical statements like "you're being mean to her" is what makes you still suspicious in my opinion.

@ VoD

Since QF was inactive lately my suspicions didn't change much about her. She seems most suspicious right now because I personally don't think Cephrir is very suspicious. Most accusations against him are due to his general behaviour, which I don't find scummy.

[darkdude]

@ QF

The original case was that you said I was "being mean" when there was no such action done by me against talitha. Sounded like just a good excuse to try to get me off her case.

And no, the last part of my last post means that I'm suspicious of you because the town's main suspect Cephrir (and myself, but as said previously of course suspecting myself would be nonsensical) doesn't seem scummy to me. That leaves only you. I did not imply any association between you two.

[darkdude]

because at least there is a case, even if it's awful

Why would I go for a case which is worse in my eyes than the one I already have?

Starting to think he may be trying to look good by sticking to his guns, but it'll take a lot to make me vote darkdude today

Contradiction again? Are you saying you WILL or WILL NOT vote for me?

[darkdude]

I'd prefer not to, but you get worse with every post.

So if you want to vote for me why do you say that "it will take a lot" for you to do so?

Anyways regarding your suggestion, I can change my suspicions to you, which I already explained is not what seems best to me at the moment, to Akonas or PP, who also don't seem more scummy than QF, or zeddicus-tyger, which I'm not sure what to make of right now due to the whole replacement thing. I am simply more confident that QF is scum than anything else.

Explain to me what you think she gets out of it if she's scum.

Obviously you would be her scum buddy in that case...

[darkdude]

As far as I see, you haven't done it yet.

I'm pretty sure I did already. But anyways:

Talitha made some weird post restating the same thing in three consecutive posts
I point out weird behaviour (weird, not necessarily scummy)
QF says I was being mean

Which of course made no sense at all. When I talked about it she was still under the impression that I was being mean and telling talitha to "drop everything and play mafia".

I assumed everyone remembered so I didn't rewrite this in the last posts.

Then why haven't you mentioned me at all?

I did, but that was prior to this case. You were inactive and only popped up when people suggested that you were lurking. Not as scummy as QF, so I put her as my main suspect.

[darkdude]

Or, are you saying Talitha and I are scum-buddies and I was defending her?

Why else?

I think you are just more likely to be scum than others. I already stated that I haven't had many new ideas recently, and when someone (sorry, no time to flip back to check for now) asked why I still had my vote you I restated the case.

@ windkirby

Thanks for looking back...well now that you look back it does seem she was quick to give three reasons for a random/joke vote...

In any case, you were by no means compassionate and your accusations were poorly founded

This is mafia. Like VoD said, do you expect us to give a hug before lynching? Lack of compassion does not mean hatred. So I see no need for you to interfere with my questioning.

Poorly founded? Any question is better than no question at all right? I'm not trying to set up and inescapable trap or anything. So if she answers with a good explanation then it's okay. If not then we could catch scum. Win-win?

I'm feeling you're giving me double standard here. Remember a couple pages back you wanted me to speak only the things I KNOW will be of use to town?

[darkdude]

You know, it would seem as if I was defending Cephrir too. I'm not sure if that's the basis for those theories about me being partners with him/Akonas. Anyways it just so happens that people have different view points which are much more prominent than scum behaviour. If a player understands this, he/she will usually appear to defend the suspect. In reality it is rather that the player is unconvinced of the suspect's scumminess due to understanding of behaviour that is not necessarily scummy and therefore not a scumtell.

[darkdude]

Basically, scumtells and playstyles are hard to tell apart?

That's what mafia is all about right? Otherwise it wouldn't be so hard.

I don't think there are many instances where someone is 100% sure. I'm not saying that we should only lynch with full confidence, but I'm merely giving an explanation to the divided opinions.

[darkdude]

I don't particularly respect his intellect

Doubt my play ability, sure. Doubt my intellect is stretching it I think.

Gut-wise, though, I'm uncomfortable lynching him because of mozsuggs and his alignment.

Logic > guts, wouldn't you agree? I have no clue what you're trying to do calling me scummy but avoiding a vote based on gut feeling which is contrary to all else you have said.

1.) How did she restate the same thing?

Apparently you forgot about how this started. I pointed out a weird instance where talitha basically made three consecutive posts, the first asking me a question, the second questioning VoD, and the third saying "yes you two please answer my question". This redundancy seems just a bit weird to me. So I asked her about it. Could there be any harm in that?

2.) First it's weird behavior she's lurking, then it's weird behavior that she's posting.

Correct. Accumulation of unorthodox behaviour certainly amounts to suspicion no?

3.) Because of points 1 & 2, you're not giving her a fair chance.
4.) Also, accusing her of lurking is kind of mean given her reasons for doing so (3 children and Easter coming up).

That's not the main point anymore is it? All she had to do was explain her lack of playing time. You know I wouldn't say "drop your kids and play mafia". So what is your point?

1.) I don't care who you hate. This is an issue of courtesy, completely irrelevant to the game. I was not suspicious of you for it. I didn't say, "Darkdude, you are a jerk, so you're scum." No.

But you did say "drop that line of questioning - it is mean".

2.) This is a game for entertainment for most of us, I believe. There is no reason to harangue players for their personal endeavors.

Quote me where I did that.

3.) It's not only saying things you know will be of use to town. It's not saying things that will be of no use to town.

Obviously you don't see the fact that sometimes there is no way to tell whether little pieces of information would or would not benefit town. When in doubt, revealing info is better than not correct? Best case scenario - town gains advantage. Worst case - town disregards it. I do not see the possibility of loss.

If you're saying that I was distracting town by saying useless stuff, then you should look at yourself and be reasonable. If you realize you are being hypocritical then why say it? Saying "he's mean" doesn't get the game anywhere.

[darkdude]

I thought ad hominem would do the trick - and it did.

Oh really? Let's all insult each other to get results!

This is still contrary to your previously stated ideals. After all by this logic I could have been baiting Talitha into activeness, and thus it wouldn't go against your principles even if I did insult her.

I have the feeling you're suddenly shifting your stance here.

[darkdude]

By the way, intentional or not, you still have flaws in your explanation a few posts before. The points I make against you are still there. Are you suggesting that "oh I meant to do that" was supposed to settle those inconsistencies and suspicions I mentioned above?

[darkdude]

Still pretty certain QF is town, maybe it's just because I tend to judge based on play as a whole and rarely vote based on a single post.

Well if you're going for WIFOM you may as well consider the fact that scum won't just generally try to be an obvious hindrance to the town. Therefore I think catching a few errors would outweigh any preconceptions.

Not to mention I found QF suspicious for a while now. That case with talitha was quite a few pages back.

[darkdude]

This seems contrary to PP and Cephrir's attacks on QF. What do you have to say to that?

I don't understand the question. I was giving an explanation on why people may seem to be obviously defending someone else. It is based on perspective of the playstyle, in the case when that behaviour is arbitrary. QF's case was based on her nonsensical accusation of me being mean. And most recently her case was the reaction.

This is irrelevant. I was saying WHY someone may be defending someone else (in the case of two players not being scum partners, obviously). This is completely different from whether that defense is good/logical or not.

[darkdude]

When darkdude and Cephrir’s alignments become known, windkirby is going to be mighty interesting to look at. And PP, too, although for the opposite reason- that dog did not bark.

So what is your plan if I turn up town?

[darkdude]

Well if you want to lynch someone to get information then you should have a plan so that you can benefit town based on the revelation of the role.

If you can't think of any benefits, wouldn't it be better not to lynch the person? (benefits in the case that the player turns up town, not including when the player is obviously scummy)

[darkdude]

Well he said one of the reasons was to see the player's alignment; as if he had a plan. But when I just asked he said he didn't have a plan. So the first statement is redundant...?

[darkdude]

With a deadline it doesn't help that QF is missing when there's some confusion around her behaviour....

[darkdude]

I don't like how QF suddenly went inactive with a deadline approaching.

Guys? What is the best option for us now?

I think a No Lynch may actually be an option, since we have an even number of players and there seems to be only one kill per night. We can see who dies today and do a lynch everyday for the rest of the days. It

slightly

increases our chance of hitting scum for the next day....

[darkdude]

I wasn't saying you were scum because you were mean. I was saying to stop being mean in general.

!!!!!!

Are you even reading what I wrote? Based on the "you're mean" point, you attempted to stop me from questioning Talitha. THAT'S what makes you scummy!

[darkdude]

I will claim. It's Vanilla townie.

At peak moments of suspicion on him he seems to pull a case out of nowhere when previously being very inactive at scum hunting.

I had that case with QF long before. I just didn't bother to push it further since no one saw it as a worthy case, and then Tyger came in as replacement and started discussing new stuff.

[darkdude]

With his latest no-lynch plan, I am happy to lynch DD.

Is that because it's a bad plan or is it because it seems like I am trying to avoid my own lynching?

[darkdude]

I normally oppose no-lynch under all circumstances, unless it's engame and mislynch will lose the game, but another night would help

Assuming there is one kill per night (likely since doctor is dead), then that will happen eventually and town would be forced to do No Lynch. If you do No Lynch now it would be the same thing, and it

slightly

increases the chance of hitting scum on all the following days.

[darkdude]

We can do it later though. All No Lynch does now is remove the opinion of one protown player from the discussion. And then we still have pretty much the same suspects.

Yes, I did realize that point. But all I thought I would suggest No Lynch as an option anyways. Because it seemed that with a deadline coming we may not have enough time to agree on a single candidate for lynch.

[darkdude]

I thought deadline was past already...apparently it hasn't.

I will not protest my death, since it is better if I clear up my intentions now, and no one thinks no lynch is the best.

I don't like setting up future lynches, but QF is VERY scummy IMHO. When my role is revealed I really hope town will remember this and look into it on next day.

She seems to just not care now that I'm on death row. She never explained her scummy behaviour.

In case you forget, my case was:

1. Talitha did a strange triple post (strange, not necessarily scummy)
2. When I questioned this, QF immediately started saying stuff along the lines of "stop questioning her it's mean"
3. I was not being mean
4. After some time (when tyger came in as replacement) I was asked why I still had my vote on QF
5. I responded that I still think that she is scum
6. She comes in apparently forgetting this case against her, and I had to explain everything again.
7. QF acts even more scummy, such as making false claims and shifting her position on the issue of "being mean"

[darkdude]

Additional notes:

QF had a double standard for me, saying that my posts were obviously useless, thus I was scummy for distracting the town with useless information. To my knowledge she thinks I should make sure everything I write is 100% going to help town before posting. This is stupid as no one can know what will help for sure and what will just be useless information. I have a policy of just speaking my mind if I feel like it, so that there is at least the chance of something that will help town.

She did some strange post, saying she was pressuring me with ad hominem, and then just assume it's all over and disappear even though I questioned her own scumminess. She said she'll post later on one day, but failed to do that. Seems like that with me sure to die, QF is trying to slip away.

[darkdude]

Oh I miss-remembered the deadline lol

You said yourself that you weren't meaning for the comment to be helpful.

No, I said that I did not intend it to be something definitely helpful to the town. I thought it MAY have been helpful, which is why I wrote it in the first place.

No, PinkPuppy, I will not cave and just vote for someone. The only person there is a strong logical case against is perhaps darkdude.

And yet you won't vote for me? Saying euphemisms to try to back away since there's a bandwagon on me already? I also thought you were on the case against Cephrir?

I felt you were being mean in your lack of compassion. I did not say "stop questioning her" I said "stop insisting she was lurking, she has kids and a job and it's a jerk thing to do to hold that against her."

How was I supposed to know that she's a working mom? You could at least tell me before accusing me of being mean. However you just said that her inactivity was excused and I can't question her.

In addition that wasn't the WHOLE case. The inactivity and "convenient" posts whenever someone accused her of lurking (I recall 2 instances) are only in addition to the strange triple post I was asking about. I thought it was suspicious that these strange behaviour patterns were starting stack. One is SUPPOSED to question in mafia. I still do not understand how that would be mean, and why you were so quick to be protective of her.

Simply, if she was that busy she could have said so herself. There would be no problem in that.

I did not shift my position recently; I shifted my position when we discussed the issue long ago and I realized that I was being a big too dramatic

No, you still insist to this day that I was being mean. THAT is the stance I am talking about. You shifted because you suddenly started ad hominem on me and then excused it with "provoking activity". By that logic even if I were mean against Talitha I could have done it with the same intentions. Basically, your stated ideals about mafia and "compassion" and your actions contradict.

that was when I was depressed and developing a case of insanity

I assume you are talking about actual insanity in real life? I have no idea how to respond to that.

[darkdude]

Would someone please provide some hardcore evidence that he is scum?

To my knowledge the reason is a combination of the deadline and my ambiguous behaviour so far. They wish to see the true intentions behind my posts to make out what they couldn't before. Pardon me for "giving up", but I think it's a valid option. I am causing a bit of a distraction as I am right now.

If we are lynching darkdude, what kind of information are we hoping to achieve?

This is what I asked Tyger. He originally said that it would be easier for town to hunt scum if me or Cephir's alignments were known. I asked back what conclusions would he draw if I turn up town, and he refused to answer. Therefore, he is my second suspect, next to QF.

[darkdude]

Although, I see a slight flaw in your last post just now.

If he's town, who do we turn to? If he's scum, who do we turn to?

I'm pretty sure that town's kind of in trouble after losing the doctor on night 1. If I were scum there would be nothing to worry about as it is good for town anyways, even if associations could not be identified (which is also not true as I see many cases pairing me up with Cephir, Akonas, yourself, etc).

[darkdude]

Go town!

[darkdude]

Is it possible for me to replace? I was vanilla townie so I didn't know anything that he shouldn't know, and I'm still up to date with the game so I don't need to read 30 pages...

[darkdude]

Woohoo, back from the dead!

As far as town is concerned at the point Viking said this, it was most likely a game of mafia vs town, because we only had one kill. I can't prove it, but reading between the lines of that post it just really feels like Viking knows there's more than one killer.. could be either because he's a lone killing role, or because he's mafia and targeted someone who didn't die on night 1.

Well, obviously I can't tell you what mindset Vikingfan was in when he wrote that, but as his replacement I would have to say that either he did mean that, in which case I have no idea what he was trying to do, or that you guys are reading too much into something ambiguous.


Now, something I've been dying to say, but didn't get a chance to before I died:

I think windkirby is scum.

In the last few posts before my former role was lynched, windkirby wrote this:

- I still believe that lynching darkdude is a horrible idea and a baseless bandwagon. Would someone please provide some hardcore evidence that he is scum? I haven't found any! I've already asked for this and barely recieved a response.

- If we are lynching darkdude, what kind of information are we hoping to achieve? If he's town, who do we turn to? If he's scum, who do we turn to? If your answer to the above is that we're lynching him for information, please answer these questions.

- I don't really like the way that Akonas suddenly started talking to QF more aggressively, as if he's been "caught," but this may not be indicative of alignment.

- In conclusion, I think the darkdude bandwagon is total crap, and I'm becoming increasingly suspicious of anyone on it. Stop me by providing some reasons.

This strikes me as VERY confident that windkirby KNEW that my former self was innocent. Looks like he's trying very hard to play the pro-town card. I am aware, now and back then, that some of my actions could easily be perceived as scummy. But when day was about to end, lynching me would have been best because otherwise we get No Lynch and I would still be a distraction for town. If I were to be lynched later it would be worse. I think most town players would lynch me. But it seems windkirby wanted to use this chance to appear pro-town by saying "he's innocent, see I told you so". He knew I was going to be lynched, and so I think he did that to show that he was correct, attempting to gain some trust from the town.

Think about it the other way. If there were a pro-town player who really didn't want to see me lynched, I doubt that person would say so so outwardly. Because if I DID turn up scum, then he would become the next suspect almost immediately for going against most of the town defending whom they now know was scum. He had to be pretty confident that I was innocent to pull that one off.

Also, Quantum Fruit, whom I have been suspecting in my former life, acted similarly, saying I was scummy but having a "gut feeling" and refrained from voting for me.

I was told that casting suspicion and not voting was considered scummy here, and I have learned. But why did everyone else forget about this? QF tried throwing around suspicion, then did not vote for anyone, and did not explain anything at the end of Day 2 when I made a case against her, and remained silent up to this point. Yeah okay "not into it". Can we really believe this?

quoting the vote count at the lynch:

Final Vote Count of Day 2
darkdude (6): Talitha, vikingfan, Cephrir, Akonas, EmpTyger, Pink Puppy
QuantumFruit (2): darkdude, windkirby

Not Voting (2): thevampireofdusseldorf, QuantumFruit

I demand a full explanation from windkirby and QF.

[darkdude]

I felt like you were being a bit simplistic in your analysis

As opposed to going into deep WIFOM and throwing suspicion everywhere?

You still did not explain your sudden change of behaviour starting at post #666.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... &start=666

[darkdude]

Lastly, I'm a little wary of your "I always meant to say it" card, as you had two posts directed toward me, even towards that particular post, yet you expressed no suspicion. (Only commenting on the logic of the post.) You were on death row. If you had anything to say, then was the time to say it. I wasn't that suspicious of vikingfan, but you simply claiming you never got to say this, but in reality switching sides on an issue because your new role is anti-town, is a possibility.

Yes, I foresaw that point.

Truth is, I really did try to get everything I knew out of my mouth before I died, but I only realized the implications of that post of yours after the thread had been locked.

Dead people are sometimes more inspired, if you know what I mean.

Did we see any place where "I told you so" was implied?

Here, of course

- In conclusion, I think the darkdude bandwagon is total crap, and I'm becoming increasingly suspicious of anyone on it. Stop me by providing some reasons.

Gives you reason to attack any player who voted for me on the next day, and giving yourself a defense for not voting me.

[darkdude]

"I told you so" MUST imply bragging?

Regardless, stop arguing about semantics. You know well what I meant.

[darkdude]

Darkdude: Just to be clear, are you denying any extra knowledge about killing roles in this game?

Yes. There is no possibility of my role knowing that there were more than one killing party at the point when that statement was made.

Also, WIFOM. You're criticizing him for trying not to get a townie lynched? I think that maybe he really didn't see any hardcore evidence. You're reaching a bit far. And you've given me no reason to believe you're not scum.

I'm criticizing him for being way too confident. I have no idea how he could be 100% sure that I was innocent. Because though he never stated that, that's the feeling I get when I read over his posts before my lynch. Again, the last part of his post

- In conclusion, I think the darkdude bandwagon is total crap, and I'm becoming increasingly suspicious of anyone on it. Stop me by providing some reasons.

seems that he knew everyone voting me was going to be wrong.

So, who is more likely to be scum?
a) the player confidently defending the innocent lynchee because he 'can't see the case'
b) the player who agreed that the lynchee is scummy, but refrains from voting due to a gut feeling that he isn't scum
c) the player who (when referring to the lynchee) says he doesn't want to lynch another townie.. then changes his mind and votes to lynch

Very good summary. I think B, because gut feelings should never have priority over logic. A is next, because with a deadline approaching even I would have voted for myself. In the last few posts before the end of Day 2, windkirby only stated he didn't like the bandwagon on me but suggested no alternative. C is the least scummy out of the three IMHO because again, people DO occasionally change their minds, and as mentioned before, one could have voted just to deal with the deadline.

[darkdude]

My statement was not "Do not lynch darkdude." It was tell me WHY, which everyone failed to do miserably. Perhaps if it was, "don't lynch darkdude," then your point that I didn't blatantly shout out someone else to lynch would be valid, except that it wasn't, plus I was voting for QuantumFruit anyway, whose lynch I was and am still happy to see.

You saw no reason, and therefore your stance on the issue was effectively opposing my lynch. If you say "I don't support this bandwagon; there is no reason" that's practically the same thing as "I don't want him lynched". So your point...?

It's like if a police officer searched someone's house without a warrant without any evidence that the person is a murderer. I wouldn't like it even if he was right.

LOL
I guess you don't like the concept of mafia then?

[darkdude]

I was referring to real life, whereas mafia is a game. Honestly, if a situation like mafia ever occured in real life, I wouldn't participate; I would run out of town...

But you applied real life principles to mafia...?

[darkdude]

Where are all the other players? We can't get much done if only a handful of the alive players are talking.

[darkdude]

I'm not saying windkirby is too pro-town. I'm saying that it seemed he was sure I wasn't scum.

I'm a little frustrated that we can't ask viking what he was thinking when he wrote that stuff expecting more kills.

I think he was just stating a hypothetical example of when claiming is good.

[darkdude]

Oh I didn't yet?

Vote: windkirby

[darkdude]

Buddy up to a dead guy? There's no payback for that if you're scum.

He could be trying to set himself as a "good town" by making the right decisions.

Anyways, even if the motive is unclear I still think he was more confident than normal that I was not scum.

[darkdude]

Well I already suspected her earlier due to other additional reasons, so I guess some pressure to see who QF thinks is scummy sounds nice. Looks like my suspicions on you isn't getting anywhere regardless.

Unvote: windkirby
Vote: Quantum Fruit

[darkdude]

I don't see how spreading blame without voting is opportunistic; jumping on wagons is what I'd call opportunistic.

Hey, I was (in my former life) criticized by you guys for that, and now you suddenly had a change of mind? Hm...

STOP VOTING FOR QUANTUMFRUIT!!!!!. We don't want a lynch yet. and Serious FoS: darkdude. I'm about to vote you for going to Lynch-1 on an "enh" vote. Actually, Vote: darkdude. I've thought you were scum; you're only convincing me more. And it's only the second vote.

Wow, that seems scummy. "stop voting for XXXX" = ???
"we don't want a lynch" = "put darkdude at -1"????
"second vote" = ???

You contradict yourself and come up with crappy excuses. Plus you seem overzealous in defending QF when obviously she's not contributing to any scum hunting, and has shown possible slips before.

Didn't someone make a case with QF + Akonas before? I'll see if I can find it... It was something about the fact that they interact weirdly.

[darkdude]

I don't want to lynch people because they look too townie.

Again, it's not being too townie. It's being somehow able to tell I was formerly a townie before my death with full confidence.

[darkdude]

For the most part, scum are gonna want to lynch someone easy, not save you to look pro-town. That's just how I feel.

The thing is that I was definitely going to be lynched anyways....

Now that I think of it, when Akonas pulled the similar stunt earlier it could have been the same situation...

[darkdude]

Furthermore, if I was confident, it's because as a vanilla, I have nothing to loose by questioning what I feel is questionable. I figured that even if it turned out that you were scum, making me look scummy, I didn't care so much because, since I know I'm not scum, looking suspicious is not a huge concern for me.

???

You said you became suspicious of people on the wagon. Okay, if I were to be lynched anyways, then half the town would be suspicious. The obvious impracticality of your implication makes your statement suspicious. Also, did you claim already? If not I do not see the reason for your coming out with a vanilla role right now.

I didn't care so much because, since I know I'm not scum, looking suspicious is not a huge concern for me.

Not very logical at all.....

[darkdude]

You said this to windkirby, I know - anyway, it's quite likely that someone would be suspicious of individuals opportunistically band-wagoning. I don't see how that makes him scummy. Elaborate please.

He said

and I'm becoming increasingly suspicious of

anyone

on it.

Which simply makes no sense and seems he was confident enough to antagonize everyone who voted for me.

Of course he did not follow through with this by FOSing everyone today, and I don't see how it would be logically possible. But then the question is, why did he say the above statement?

Problem with going off of gut feelings is that I don't trust them.

Yes, and thus it has priority over logic?

[darkdude]

Furthermore, I hardly see reason to contain the fact that I am a vanilla townie, especially when it supports my case. Scum have hardly anything to gain by knowing that a person is vanilla.

No, if you are vanilla now they know who's NOT the power role, e.g. vigilante which we may have...

Disagree. Scum have more at stake because there are fewer of them. If one of them is lynched, it hurts the team greatly, whereas if a vanilla townie is lynched, it's not as big of a deal.

First of all that's WIFOM. Second, in any case town shouldn't intentionally do something to make them appear scummy. That just gives the real scum a chance to slip away under cover.

We have no deadline: If I'm the scummiest player, why aren't you voting for me? Why are you instead placing QF at L-1? Certainly seems like your suspicion of me is just put on while your vote is being used to get you to night the fastest.

Going for OMGUS heh?

Who said I'm no longer suspicious of you? I'm think it is very likely you are scum. But though I stated the case no one else seems to agree, so using my vote to pressure QF is better than having it collect dust under your name I think.

[darkdude]

Still always the chance that I lied I was vanilla. I see your point, but I still don't feel it necessary to conceal my role when I don't have a power when it helps my case.

Problem is it doesn't help your case. There is no proof that you are vanilla, so saying your actions are justified from a vanilla perspective is not convincing at all. As you said, you could still be any role.

What, you picture me saying, "Oh, well, I'm going to do this because it makes me look scummy."? Ridiculous: rather, I was simply not going to let the somewhat questionable appearance of it stop me from stating that I was finding your bandwagon scummy.

You could easily have stated that in a way so that it does not suggest you have confidence in my alignment. You're saying now "I wasn't worried about looking scummy, THEREFORE it would not be scummy even if it seemed so, BECAUSE I allowed it to seem scummy in the first place".

That in itself is scummy. I it's the first time I heard that sort of logic.

Unless I'm getting the wrong idea from your words here...

Furthermore, if I was confident, it's because as a vanilla, I have nothing to loose by questioning what I feel is questionable. I figured that even if it turned out that you were scum, making me look scummy, I didn't care so much because, since I know I'm not scum, looking suspicious is not a huge concern for me.

[darkdude]

I didn't refrain from doing so because I felt that, as a townsperson, I ought to speak my opinion on the darkdude bandwagon and request explanation even though it could possibly seem scummy to some, as, since I'm not a power role, I would rather have people become a little more suspicious of me than let this bandwagon go unquestioned." (It's a very wordy point.)

I understand what you are saying, but that can easily be an excuse for doing something that seems scummy (to me), being so confident in opposing the day's lynch.

[darkdude]

Hm...I think we over looked something

Explanation: It's not because I think she's an obvious innocent, (even though I don't at this stage feel that she's scum). It's because she finally voted (woohoo!) AND she voted for her man. Game on.

I have no idea how QF is an obvious innocent...

Unvote

Vote: Talitha

[darkdude]

I'm confused. Did I say she was?

lol yes, my mistake. I was wondering why no one picked that up.

Unvote
Vote: QuantumFruit

[darkdude]

So, I think both darkdude and Akonas are at L-1?

ORLY?

Post 836 = MY HAMMER!

Unvote
Vote: Akonas

[darkdude]

Oh damn, I wasn't in the right mind when I did that. I did suspect him enough to want to hammer, but I should have waited for a role claim.

If town loses because of this, I'm sorry! You can lynch me or whatever tomorrow.

[darkdude]

Oh wow, weird. Both my suspects turned out to be town.

With only one scum dead this isn't good.

[darkdude]

We should have most suspicious players go first so that they have less information to base a possible false claim on.

[darkdude]

Because of my hammer last day?

[darkdude]

With 2 killing parties I'm guessing there were 3 scum to start off with, and since only one is dead I think there's likely 2 scum here. Well, paranoia makes this fun

I'm vanilla townie.

[darkdude]

Nothing. It was convenient that I could continue my previous suspicions.

[darkdude]

Well now we know who one of the scum is.

How would you know there's a mafia role blocker left? There's nothing to indicate this.

If my guess about 2 scum players is correct, then there is no way town can control today's lynch anyways. We'll have to see what the 2nd killing role, whether vig or SK, does.

[darkdude]

lol, just read over my own post. Just to clarify, that was not a confession though it may seem like one.

By "we know who one of the scum is", I mean Jenter of course, for framing me.

[darkdude]

B) 2 scum with no power roles wouldn't have a hope in hell

That's why I think there are 3. With one dead there are two remaining, including you.

Vote: Jenter

[darkdude]

But the only thing I'll be voting for today is a no-lynch... feel free to try and convince me otherwise.

I was thinking of that too, but as I assume there's already a scum majority it would not work.

Let's find out.

Unvote: jenter
Vote: No Lynch

[darkdude]

which makes a 3-man mafia group AND an SK seem unbalanced. Seems more likely we have a 2-man mafia group AND an SK.

I think 3 scum and one SK is more balanced due to potential crossfire. 2 scum can be killed off too easily.

[darkdude]

I wonder why you didn't reveal that information yesterday then.

Obvious scum.

[darkdude]

WTH?

It's bad for town, alright, but we can't give up yet.

[darkdude]

The way darkdude seems so willing to vote for no-lynch made me wonder why.

Maybe cause I'm town, and it's my best bet to win lol?

[darkdude]

I doubt there are unkillable roles in this game.

I think Talitha and Jenter are scum. Of course, if my suspicion of 3-man mafia + SK is correct, then I'm actually the only town here.

This seems to be the case as no one is agreeing with me for a No Lynch.

[darkdude]

Yay for unanimous decisions!

[darkdude]

Well, at least I was correct about there being 3 scum