Mini #564 - Mafia in Crubtown - Game Over

[QuantumFruit]

Wow. He's back.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Haha obviously I'm incompetant at hammering Moz is back. But seriously moz you can't post in a game you have been killed in.

Townies don't need to worry about being seen as scum.

Well I can see this as ok in theory in practical usage it doesn't exactly help town win, if a townie does something they know might appear scummy then the are generaly going to be questioned over it and firstly this detracts from focusing on possible real scum and second endangers a townie for a lynch. The only time I would see this of use would be if the pay out was greater than the bet.

Are you afraid of looking more suspicious for similar behavior?

Well yes of course, I am not subscribing to Akonas above idea. But also I am being gentler with darkdude in terms of pressure, in this situation I didn't think more pressure would help and giving some advice on how to play here was good for him and us. Anyone can be lynched for being new and not understanding certain things about the "comunity culture" but if they understand these things and still continue to do wierd scummy things then I think these actions hold more wieght than previously.

Your point about zeddicus is good. The thing that is interesting about him is how he has sort of stopped playing the game since being bandwagoned. He isn't trying to find scum anymore. He's just playing victim. And I have to admit, VoD, you did not do that when you were under pressure.

I dont think I uderstand the bit about him not playing since being bandwagoned, I don't think he has been bandwagoned this game. And I dont get your bit about playing the victim either zeddicus has made one post day two and basicly agreed with different peoples points and said was torn between voting me and dd (the two most suspicious people). The post above post needs some clarification.

The thing I was interested in while being under suspcion was that I had become suspicious of my accusors. Now this I'm sure is natural if you are town and find you accusors arguments and constant pressure rather wierd behaviour or in my case I felt the attention that was being paid to me was too much and the "evidence" of my scumminess was rather light, then how do you try and hunt scum in that person without it apearing as an OMGUS kinda thing.

[darkdude]

When did I do that? The way you accused VoD was when there was a bandwagon already forming and it seemed as though you were doing that to divert attention from yourself.

I really could not find anyone more suspicious than he was.

@darkdude: You know who's more suspicious than he was? You.

[darkdude]

The thing I was interested in while being under suspcion was that I had become suspicious of my accusors. Now this I'm sure is natural if you are town and find you accusors arguments and constant pressure rather wierd behaviour or in my case I felt the attention that was being paid to me was too much and the "evidence" of my scumminess was rather light, then how do you try and hunt scum in that person without it apearing as an OMGUS kinda thing.

Yeah this happened to me and Yvonne. When you're pro town and someone's constantly calling you scum you tend to think that way....

[Crub]

Fifth Vote Count of Day 2

darkdude (4):

vikingfan, Cephrir, Pink Puppy, QuantumFruit

thevampireofdusseldorf (1):

windkirby

Pink Puppy (1):

thevampireofdusseldorf

Not Voting (4):

Talitha, darkdude, Akonas, zeddicus

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

By the way ... any mention to

"He's back"

is referring to a post of mozsuggs which I have deleted.

[Cephrir]

Well I can see this as ok in theory in practical usage it doesn't exactly help town win, if a townie does something they know might appear scummy then the are generaly going to be questioned over it and firstly this detracts from focusing on possible real scum and second endangers a townie for a lynch. The only time I would see this of use would be if the pay out was greater than the bet.

The idea is that if a townie is doing what they should be doing (hunting scum), they don't look bad. Worrying about seeming like scum shouldn't be a townie's priority. Not getting lynched is important, but what some townie's don't factor into their thoughts is that they still win with the town if they die. Therefore, finding scum is more important than not getting lynched. That's not to say that getting yourself lynched to prove your suspiciouns were genuine is a good idea; it's not.

The thing I was interested in while being under suspcion was that I had become suspicious of my accusors. Now this I'm sure is natural if you are town and find you accusors arguments and constant pressure rather wierd behaviour or in my case I felt the attention that was being paid to me was too much and the "evidence" of my scumminess was rather light, then how do you try and hunt scum in that person without it apearing as an OMGUS kinda thing.

It happens. If it seems like one's accusors have built really bad arguments, it can be difficult not to call them scum. If other players don't agree that the arguments are bad, there's a good chance that it

is

OMGUS and you don't realize it

Yeah this happened to me and Yvonne. When you're pro town and someone's constantly calling you scum you tend to think that way....

Exactly. Case in point: mozsuggs. He calls me scum in, like, every one of his last five posts. Granted, he's an idiot, and I wasn't even as convinced as he seemed to think I was, but you get the idea. Some people just go TUNNELVISION BLAAAAGH on someone voting them and don't let up.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

@darkdude on day one I think yvonnes behaviour was an indication of a power role, she only had one suspect and held to that suspect all day one = town power role. Well thats what the comunity says anyways, but you probably didn't know this.
As a side note for my learning benifit and perhaps others: I thought this was more an indication of a cop tell and I can understand it as thus as it is obvious and if there is a doctor they can hopefuly pick it up and know who to protect, but a doc doing this that is very strange?

[Cephrir]

Yeah, she wasn't acting very doccish. Please stop talking about it. If you want to talk about power role tells, do it after the game. Your post there could definitely give a noob scum a hint as to how cops act. I suppose talking about doc tells is okay at this point: they try not to draw attention to themselves.

[Cephrir]

EBWODP: That sounded a lot angrier than it actually was.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Yeah I get your point I wont push it too far but as I'm new I just wishing to expand my knowledge, but if this is bad for town then I will do it elsewhere.
Also

vote:zeddicus

as a surprise for when he gets back.

[windkirby]

Rest assured I'm keeping tabs on this game. If scumtells continue to hide I'll probably contemplate a switch to the offensive.

[QuantumFruit]

@VoD: I'm satisfied with your answer to that question, thanks.

@darkdude: I was mostly just being cheeky with that response. You were in fact bandwagoning and doing what you were told with regards to voting or not voting. That was suspicious and I wanted to see you respond, so I called you out on it.

--

Also, pressure on darkdude doesn't seem to work, and I wonder if he'll give more input not under pressure.

Unvote.

[Pink Puppy]

I dont think I uderstand the bit about him not playing since being bandwagoned, I don't think he has been bandwagoned this game. And I dont get your bit about playing the victim either zeddicus has made one post day two and basicly agreed with different peoples points and said was torn between voting me and dd (the two most suspicious people). The post above post needs some clarification.

The thing I was interested in while being under suspcion was that I had become suspicious of my accusors. Now this I'm sure is natural if you are town and find you accusors arguments and constant pressure rather wierd behaviour or in my case I felt the attention that was being paid to me was too much and the "evidence" of my scumminess was rather light, then how do you try and hunt scum in that person without it apearing as an OMGUS kinda thing.

Since people have started voting him, DD has said that he will look scummy now no matter what he does. Like he just can't win. Sort of defeatist attitude, emotional pleas. If you still don't understand, I can go back and quote for you.

To me, that's not playing. You have to keep trying to find out who scum are, even when you are under attack. Personally that is usually more convincing to me than a defense for a certain action. If someone under fire can make good arguments (for their innocence) BUT more importantly why someone else is scum, I'm more inclined to believe that they might be innocent (I know ppl can buss, but that's not the first thing I look for or worry about. I think bussing is less common than some ppl think).

And it doesn't have to be OMGUS. You can suspect people that don't currently suspect you. I know it's easy to think that people voting you must be scum just because you don't agree with them. I don't put too much stock in that because it's a natural reaction and not totally indicative of anything real. Unless there is some really good reasoning.

[Pink Puppy]

Rest assured I'm keeping tabs on this game. If scumtells continue to hide I'll probably contemplate a switch to the offensive.

This is a weird post.

[darkdude]

Personally that is usually more convincing to me than a defense for a certain action. If someone under fire can make good arguments (for their innocence) BUT more importantly why someone else is scum, I'm more inclined to believe that they might be innocent (I know ppl can buss, but that's not the first thing I look for or worry about. I think bussing is less common than some ppl think).

As if I could find something wrong when everyone is saying one and the same thing....that is why I said it would have been okay to suspect me as prime suspect if you had a secondary one to see what I can do too.

Well regardless I think that phase is over. I will

vote: zeddicus

to see some activity from him...

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Your point about zeddicus is good. The thing that is interesting about him is how he has sort of stopped playing the game since being bandwagoned. He isn't trying to find scum anymore. He's just playing victim. And I have to admit, VoD, you did not do that when you were under pressure.

Ah you ment darkdude in your post not zeddicus. Ok that explains things.

Rest assured I'm keeping tabs on this game. If scumtells continue to hide I'll probably contemplate a switch to the offensive.

I see this as the "whack a mole" game if a scum tell pops up you whack it with your hammer, but if they stop poping up you stick your arm down the hole and try and pull them out.
I haven't seen too much scuminess from the very active players (bar darkdude) windkirby, Pink Puppy, QuantumFruit and Cephrir so I would be inclined to believe that scum are either hiding in their holes or doing a good job at being active and avoiding suspicion.

[QuantumFruit]

@Pink Puppy: I will look stupid, but what is bussing, exactly? I'm an idiot and unfamiliar with the phrase.

@darkdude: But but but...you're bandwagoning again! VoD just voted zeddicus before you...Please do your own thinking. It's not exactly a scum-tell that you don't (a tiny bit of a newbie scum tell because obviously if you're agreeing with someone else, you won't look so suspicious since they believe what you believe, etc.), but it's frustrating.

@VoD: You're amusing. And cute analogy.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

...Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death’s other Kingdom
Remember us—if at all—not as lost


Bussing as I belive it is scum voting his partner to the point of a lynch, (throwing him under the wheels of a bus) so that they look a lot more town.

So what has happened day two.......I get picked on for being the hammer and darkdude draws suspicion for multiple reasons (most newb tells) and still continues to do the same things he has already done that have drawn suspicion to himself.
We talk about claiming, power role tells, and moles. Talitha says she will post but never does. Zeddicus posts once then goes on springbreak to mexico where the...(well I will leave that up to your imagination). Moz drops back in to say hello and is quickly put back to death. I start ranting as this helps me get a grip of things....................ok done.

Now if I look back on the vote count for moz I am inclined to believe at least one or two scum were in on the vote, and the most inconspicuous places to be are in the middle block 3-5. So we have QuantumFruit, windkirby, zeddicus, as I've said I'm not getting anything too scummy from QF and wk so I will focus on zeddicus pre moz lynch as he has only made one post day two of which I have comented on.

Also just noted windkirby you voted for moz with no real explanation but said if anyone except moz objected you would explain.
Given you said very soon after the lynch:

(I would here like to state that I was adding in my vote in hopes of the newb's confessional collapse.)

Should I take this post event explanation as the truth (sort of like how you take my post event explanation as untruth).

Now back to zeddicus:
I already made a case against him day one post 164, but this was never comented on. I think this still stands as zed joined the moz wagon and on day two his listed suspicions were also with the two popularist movements (wagons) at that time. Also he added his suspicion to both but didn't vote. Again something he used aginst darkdude day one.

[windkirby]

Rest assured I'm keeping tabs on this game. If scumtells continue to hide I'll probably contemplate a switch to the offensive.

This is a weird post.

Sorry if it was weird. It was pretty late last night (at least for someone who has a slight cold); basically my train of thought was "I don't think I've even posted in a few days although I've been observing, so I should probably make sure they know that." I think VoD explained the second part well, so... yup...

I'm going to

unvote

and contemplate who to try next. Though I'm still a notch more suspicious of VoD, I myself would also like to consider Cephrir, zeddicus, and darkdude a bit.

[Pink Puppy]

@Pink Puppy: I will look stupid, but what is bussing, exactly? I'm an idiot and unfamiliar with the phrase.

Bussing = getting your scum partner lynched to make yourself look protown.

[Cephrir]

(I know ppl can buss, but that's not the first thing I look for or worry about. I think bussing is less common than some ppl think).

Yeah, it's annoying when a scum gets lynched and everyone looks for who who bussing rather than who was avoiding the lynch. Neither is infallible.

@darkdude: But but but...you're bandwagoning again! VoD just voted zeddicus before you...Please do your own thinking. It's not exactly a scum-tell that you don't (a tiny bit of a newbie scum tell because obviously if you're agreeing with someone else, you won't look so suspicious since they believe what you believe, etc.), but it's frustrating.

He is doing it excessively, but sometimes you really do agree with someone, like, completely. If everyone strictly thought for themselves, we'd end up with everyone having one vote.

Bah, everyone seems town. I might look at some lurkers later.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Mod

how long do you wait until asking for a prod?

3 days + 1 for weekends and leniancy for holidays - Crub

[darkdude]

@darkdude: But but but...you're bandwagoning again! VoD just voted zeddicus before you...Please do your own thinking. It's not exactly a scum-tell that you don't (a tiny bit of a newbie scum tell because obviously if you're agreeing with someone else, you won't look so suspicious since they believe what you believe, etc.), but it's frustrating.

You know after that long discussion I don't really care that much anymore...I would just repeat myself if I wrote anything.

I simply believe we should pressure lurkers and inactives a bit.

By your logic (and those of a few others) I should have the following vote restrictions?

1. Cannot vote for a player when someone else already has voted for them
2. Cannot FOS without voting
3. If the above two rules are pointed out, I cannot change my mind
4. Breaking any of the above is deemed scummy
5. The only "safe" vote is when against a player who is found to be most likely scum by the town already

Isn't that a bit much?

I have the feeling you're doing the same thing I was accused of...pointing fingers around at people with minimal evidence. Personally I don't think it is that scummy, but since you people say so....

Get my point?

[Akonas]

@Akonas: I'm not going to quote post 354 in its entirety, so I'll just reply. First of all, I don't feel like what VoD said in his "defense" was defense at all. I felt like he was just saying what had happened and apologizing for it and that's that. Neither he nor I advocated completely ignoring it, just looking at other stuff too because we were getting much too polarized on a minor detail. We'd all already discussed our reactions to it and the discussion was growing redundant. I don't disregard the fact that the whole situation is something to keep in mind. I completely think it is.

A lynch is hardly a minor detail. It was a defense because he was excusing an action which otherwise would have been perceived as very scummy. That being said, this whole argument is getting a bit cold, but there's no way you're going to get the last word on this.

It's not a good argument, though, because most of us aren't buying it. A better argument would be knowing that it was the hammer vote and strongly feeling that mozsuggs was scum. Then we might ask for explanation, but it wouldn't look as scummy. The "I didn't know" crap makes VoD look like he's trying to get out of it and doing a bad job. This argument doesn't make him seem like town at all, it just seems like he's trying to be honest. He could still be town or scum, the argument he's making doesn't prove or disprove either.

Except for the fact that you are buying it. He didn't get lynched; in some games, putting on a quick hammer like that would be enough to get you tagged as scum. Your saying that another argument would have been more convincing to you simply doesn't cut it if you're not attacking him. Doesn't make him seem like town... but not like scum either, apparently.

if a townie does something they know might appear scummy then the are generaly going to be questioned over it and firstly this detracts from focusing on possible real scum and second endangers a townie for a lynch. The only time I would see this of use would be if the pay out was greater than the bet.

The payout

is

greater than the bet. If scum get questioned over something that appears scummy, we get to see who's interrogating and who's not, who's eager to get someone lynched and who's not, who's talking and who's not. Since we don't know who scum are, we go after everyone. The point is, if a townie's reserved and not saying something for fear of seeming scum, this is generally a bad thing.
Also, what Cephrir said.

Yeah this happened to me and Yvonne. When you're pro town and someone's constantly calling you scum you tend to think that way....

Well, don't.


And as for the hint-dropping, don't do it. It's a bad idea. If you're going to claim, then claim; otherwise, you're probably scum or going to get killed by scum.

And where is that zeddicus?

[QuantumFruit]

@Akonas: Stop turning this into a personal vendetta (with the whole "you're not getting the last word" bit). It's very unbecoming. I otherwise adore you, but you're being downright ornery.

Was it scummy? Yes, somewhat. Was it noteworthy? Yes, definitely. Was it lynch-worthy? I don't think so; not as an isolated event. Now, have the last word, go ahead. You know my stance.