Mini #564 - Mafia in Crubtown - Game Over

[Crub]

Second Vote Count of Day 2

thevampireofdusseldorf (4):

Pink Puppy, windkirby, Akonas, darkdude

darkdude (1):

vikingfan

Not Voting (5):

Cephrir, thevampireofdusseldorf, QuantumFruit, Talitha, zeddicus

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

zeddicus prodded.

[Pink Puppy]

Oh well this community doesn't like talking without voting? Well then I will vote.

Vote: VoD

You should do what you think is right... not what other people want you to do.

[zeddicus]

sorry guys, i was a bit busy. schoolwork and all.

I think you should read all of a person's posts before putting the hammer on!

i agree with this.

I don't like the fact that VoD kills moz without seeming all that convinced that he's scum, just that he's sick of dealing with him. Not pro-town in the least.

I also think the hammer was a bit hasty.

Guys I didn't realize that that was the hammer

hadn't i recently said that it was lynch -2?

The darkdude thing is Wifom. So is the fact that he brought it up.

Truth.

Just because something is an obvious scum action doesn't mean scum try not to do it. They can do it and then say, "oops I didn't realize" or "do you really think scum would be that stupid?" Both arguments are WIFOM because we can't know their motivation.

If we let people get away with scummy play, then we really decrease our ability to tell scummy play from townie play.

This is basically what i was thinking as well.

That said I agree with Pink Puppy. I want VoD to claim.

why exactly? you said this when he had three votes on him, and yours wasn't. seems suspicious.

I am torn between voting for VoD or voting for darkdude.

[Pink Puppy]

That said I agree with Pink Puppy. I want VoD to claim.

why exactly? you said this when he had three votes on him, and yours wasn't. seems suspicious.

I am torn between voting for VoD or voting for darkdude.

You reminded me of something. Darkdude says he agrees with me that VoD should claim. Except I never said that. He was at 3 votes at the time and that is not the time to claim. I was still discussing things. People shouldn't claim until they're closer to lynch... when most of the town wants a claim.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

@Y'all

I have admited that I didn't realize that I had placed the hammer vote and I also relize that this is wifom, nobody has blatantly come out and said I believe he didn't realize or I believe he knew he was hammering...but there has been a lot of insinuations to the later......

The sudden hammer without a lot of posting beforehand just seems like eager mafiaman who can't say no to finally being able to get out his gun.

I find VoD just slightly suspicious, again for using jokes for the deciding vote.

I don't so much mind that you put the hammer on mozsuggs... or even that you voted him. I only mind that you were happy to lynch someone without reading all their posts, and that you sounded amused/excited. That attitude seems off to me.

So @ those quoted above are you voting for me because you belive I was aware of putting the hammer on moz and made up the "I didn't realize it was the hammer" as a defence, PLEASE ANSWER! and If you have other reasons/accusations I would like to know so if I havent already explained/defended myself I can do that.

The other two main reasons I have picked up on for my scumminess are both from the moz vote post:
the joke nature of it and the comment "I don't feel like reading all of your recent posts yet".

The joke nature of the posts was directed specificly at moz who as it was plainly obvious he liked to joke around, I also thought others might have a sense of humour (alas my timing was off)
I had skimmed over the post before making mine and that comment was to try and tell moz he was posting too much to his detriment.

So I get the feeling it is these two points taken in the context of a hammer vote that are the reasons for me being voted, and that those voting for me feel happy to run me up to a claim and possible lynch for this.

I think this has all moved way too fast and nobody else has even been seriously questioned. If these are the reasons mentioned above for pushing me on a wagon ride towards lynching then I am inclined to believe that this dubious wagon has some scum wheels on it.

[Akonas]

hold no more weight than my "I didnt realize that it was the hammer", they are done post event with the knowledge that moz is town, but in these cases niether of them were questioned about there involvment in mozs death and both were pressuring me for my part after I had already exlained my actions.

"it was an accident" doesn't hold much weight either. It's not much of an explanation, and it doesn't take my suspicion off.

I was genuinely wishing for a response from him, for me to decide if I thought him town or scum.

fair enough. But you should have checked--not to to so seems quite irresponsible.

@Akonas: I wasn't saying that VoD's post timing wasn't potentially suspicious. It's something to look into if its habitual, etc., but I don't think in and of itself it was necessarily scummy. People make mistakes (yes, that's a truism), and I don't think his action merits a vote. (So, I'm not voting for him.)

Wait... but people don't habitually do things that they know will get them labeled as scum. Yes, they do some things habitually, and those are definitely important to look for. But sometimes it's the one slip where scum gives him/herself away.

vote darkdude

. I don't like the way he's consistently pressuring vod, especially to claim, without putting his vote where his mouth is.

I don't see a problem; he's putting a vote on, and we don't want a quicklynch.

For all my suspicions at the moment, I will

unvote

. I don't see quite enough merit in this wagon at the moment. I am, however, quite suspicious of both darkdude and vikingfan. Vikinfan's not been doing much of any good all game, and he bothers me. darkdude seems like a newbie, but I'm not sure about town or scum.

[QuantumFruit]

@Akonas: Well, did you want him (VoD) to lie?
And fine, they don't always do something habitual. What I'm saying is, if he did this multiple times, it'd be scummy and I'd vote for him. Doing it once is a reasonable mistake - plus, you know my timing with witticisms. Very inopportune. So, I understand VoD and that's that.

[windkirby]

VoD -
The reason my vote is on you because even if it was a mistake as you said, scum is much more likely to be so irresponsible.

Still nothing else to add quite yet...

[Cephrir]

@Akonas: Well, did you want him (VoD) to lie?
And fine, they don't always do something habitual. What I'm saying is, if he did this multiple times, it'd be scummy and I'd vote for him. Doing it once is a reasonable mistake - plus, you know my timing with witticisms. Very inopportune. So, I understand VoD and that's that.

Ding ding ding, winner!

[windkirby]

Ehh, now I've the idea of Ceph-VoD-QF scum group... that really didn't deserve such a praising QFT. Rest assured it's not something I'm going to be mondo-confident in, but the idea's there now...

[Cephrir]

I'm not "praising". I am expressing my agreement in a slightly humorous way.

Y'know, wk, it's not like scum always agree. If VoD were hypothetically scum and we found this out later, I'd look back at this and be just as suspicious of PP and other people gunning after VoD hard (potentially bussing him) as I would be of those defending him. And it's just as suspicious to not take a stance at all in a way... it's hard to tell tbh. But anyway, a lot of the time, scum don't neccessarily defend their partners adamantly, because they know it'll look bad later. Granted, it's Wifom, but you get the point. Also, sometimes townies agree with each other.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

"it was an accident" doesn't hold much weight either. It's not much of an explanation, and it doesn't take my suspicion off.

@Akonas: Well, did you want him (VoD) to lie?

I have always claimed I thought it was the L-1 vote (a terrible mistake and I really dont know why I thought that but we all have mental lapses) and I knew it was going to be hard to convince anyone of this but I believed it better to tell the truth about the situation and try my best to defend it than to make up a more convicing defense.

The reason my vote is on you because even if it was a mistake as you said, scum is much more likely to be so irresponsible.

I dont agree with that as a blanket statement: I think both scum and town have equal reason to be cautious especialy around lynch time: scum so as to try and avoid suspicion and town so as to be confident they have got scum.
And you didn't answer my question:

are you voting for me because you belive I was aware of putting the hammer on moz and made up the "I didn't realize it was the hammer" as a defence, PLEASE ANSWER!

So I feel my votees are playing it from both sides:
He might have knowingly hammered and then used the I didn't know as the defense
If he didnt know then it shows he was irresponsible (scum)
Now I see this as unfair, as you can use both contradictory eplanations to throw suspicion on me while refraining from personaly commenting on which one you are more inclined to believe.
No I dont mind looking at it from both perspectives but to point to "evidence" of scummines from both pov's to form a collective body of "evidence" is not legit at all.

That is why I ask those voting me what do you personaly believe.

[QuantumFruit]

And I agree with you again, Cephrir. Funny how this always happens - I express my agreement with who seems most reasonable and voila! Eh, I guess I'm always leery of people overly adamant against someone. I think it's more playstyle/personality.

And windkirby, I understand how you could construe us as a scum group, but I could just as easily construe you, Pink Puppy, and darkdude as such. Akonas not really even though he was on the bandwagon, because I know how little attention he's been paying to mafia as of late. Basically, your continuous accusation of VoD is counter-productive because there's really nothing more he can say. It's complete WIFOM. Either he really didn't know it was the hammer and that's all he can defend himself with or he did and he's scum and you're completely right but belaboring the fact is excessive and we can't just assume he's scum. It would be a hasty judgment and bad for town.

Also, (and this is a bad way of playing mafia), I like Cephrir and VoD's senses of humor for the most part. They keep me amused and so I like them. So, thanks for keeping me entertained, guys.

[QuantumFruit]

@VoD: I think scum would be responsible with that sort of thing in fear of being called out on it. Scum would get sloppy. So, either you're telling the truth or you're lying, and though I'm inclined to believe you, I won't rule out possibilities. As this is complete WIFOM, I don't feel it merits a vote.

[windkirby]

VoD, I do not believe one way or the other, but I am more inclined to believe that you did not know you were hammering. However, I still think that it's a pretty scummy thing to do to not even check enough to know you're hammering.

Ceph, now who's being overdefensive? I'm perfectly aware that scum don't necessarily agree, but I still felt that while QF post was very adequate, it was odd for you to do nothing in your post but quote her for truth and praise her for it. (Calling her a winner is basically praising her IMB.) As I already said, I don't feel comfortable pursuing it, but if you feel you needed my further explanation, I can oblige.

[darkdude]

I think VoD should claim to at least give us something to work on. Right now I feel as if we've been going over the same thing again for weeks. VoD seems most suspicious right now, so I think it's a good idea for me to ask for a claim. The resulting reactions could be what we need.

Perhaps for some reason I am not reading well enough, but all I see is defense after defense. Everything in mafia is defendable, and WIFOM is so common that it makes little sense not to act on something just because it could go on both ways. In this situation I believe we have to think simple and avoid over analyzing things. Because the way I see it is that the mafia is currently confusing the town by turning down one lynch proposal after another. I guess that's what happens when you lose 3 town in a row. Possibly one third of the players here could be scum. This would explain the lack of decisions.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

@VoD: I think scum would be responsible with that sort of thing in fear of being called out on it. Scum would get sloppy.

Not sure I get this do you mean scum wouldn't get sloppy?

VoD, I do not believe one way or the other, but I am more inclined to believe that you did not know you were hammering. However, I still think that it's a pretty scummy thing to do to not even check enough to know you're hammering.

Thank you for at least trying to answer my question, but you are still using the double contradictory situation aproach to judge me as scum, basicly judging me as scum regardless of if I knew or not, but saying you are more inclined to believe the view I knew.
The only fair way for me to argue with this is to defend myself from both pov's, of which I have not as that is just plain stupid and would incriminate myself further, yet this is what I face from the prosecution, they have the ability to stay in the middle ground not comiting to either opinion and presenting both cases as suspicious.
I have already presented the best defence I could and have answered all questions/suspicions people have had........now we are just going over the same ground with no real headway. Scum are escaping suspicion with the current attention on this matter and to try and get others to widen their eyes to other people:

vote:Pink Puppy

(I do have good reason for this and it is not an omgus vote but I have a few things to do so I will post more later)

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

@darkdude I dont know what you are expecting from a claim but your pressure for one seems a little strange especialy now I'm at 3 votes, so I will try and outline what would happen in a claim:

I claim vanila townie: this is as good as a no claim as it holds no wieght,
I claim a town power role: this is a more tricky situation, if I do have a power role I am going to be targeted for a nk (especialy wothout a doc), if I do not have a power role I could be doing one of two things, as town I could be covering for the person who does have this power role and setting myself up for a nk as a vanila townie or I could be scum claiming a power role to try and get a counter claim from the real role holder so to give my scum partners a good nk choice.
And lastly the wildcard option is to claim scum: this could be done at a very inopertune time for a joke, (I'm not sure of cases where this has happened and context) but this is very unlikely.

I dont think I have missed something but if others no of any other type of claim.....

[darkdude]

Could there be masons?

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Is Pink Puppy scum 'V'''''V'

About the nuances....I generally feel that "trying to have it both ways" is scummy, because it signals a person who is molding their suspicions to fit whatever person they want to target. Like they are picking the target first, and worrying about reasons later. Which is what a townie would never do.

I believe this is what Pink Puppy is doing along with a few others "trying to have it both ways". As I have explained.

First accusations against me by anyone were done by PP and were about putting the hammer on in a joke fashion and with a comment about not reading mozs posts.

I explained that I thought it the L-1 vote

This is left to be discussed by others which leads to a few more votes

Then

I do agree context is important though too. I don't so much mind that you put the hammer on mozsuggs... or even that you voted him. I only mind that you were happy to lynch someone without reading all their posts, and that you sounded amused/excited. That attitude seems off to me.

You dont mind I hammered a townie or voted for him but you take issue at the nature of the post (jokey) and (your interpretation of) one line in it. Again you are still insinuating I knew I was hammering by "you were happy to lynch"

Even if you didn't know you were hammering, you HAD to know that a lot of people were voting mozsuggs and he was getting close. That might be the time to like... CHECK to see how many votes the guy has on him.

Now we have a change with ok if it was accidental I will attack you from this perspective. I had already said I thought it was the L-1 vote so I was obviously aware moz was close to a lynch but I had misscounted while skimming over the posts before making mine.

I still feel the same way, whether is was the lyncher or the L-1, whether you knew it was or not.

Now it doesnt matter which is more likely as I'm branded scum either way, either I did know and hammered or I thought it was the L-1,

both of these statements can't be true

; but esentialy it doesn't matter either way because both can be used to make a case against me and combined they make an even bigger case.

Is this not having it both ways.

I feel as if you picked me for the hammer vote and then when the info of me thinking it a L-1 vote came to light and you could not ignore this as a possibility, you claim this is scummy too and then after I defended this It becomes oh well the motivations behind the post are not important both are scummy.

he didn't realize his vote was the hammer. And that argument is WIFOM because I can't ever know his motivation.

Yes you can't "know" but you can make an informed decision based on observations (as others have done) as to what is more likely but as I see it you wish to say I can't know so you can throw suspicion from both points of view.

And a foot note: Given the length and weight of suspicion on myself and the amount of content I have posted in my defence has anything else come to light to add to anyones suspicion, backtracking, contradictions, etc any holy scum tells..........or is this wagon solely beinging oiled on a post done day one?

[Talitha]

I am sorry - work has been kicking my butt. I'm trying to read over, but my eyes won't stay open. Tomorrow I have a day off though so I'll be back when I've had some sleep.

[Pink Puppy]

VoD...I don't think I am "trying to have it both ways" as you have said. In my first post today where I voted you I said I was most suspicious of you because you said you didn't read all of his posts and seemed to be taking your vote too jokey... being too amused. That was the my main points and I feel they still stand whether or not you were hammering. That's why I told you I don't care whether you were hammering or not (although hammering does draw more attention to it).

This is my first post today:

vote: thevampireofdusseldorf

for putting the hammer on although

Mozsugs, I dont feel like reading through all your recent posts just yet, I may go back to look over them for amusment at some stage.

I think you should read all of a person's posts before putting the hammer on!

And saying he might read M's posts sometime for amusement... sounds like he's having too much fun here. I would expect VoD to atleast be a little nervous about hammering. It just seems like he can't contain his excitement.

And you are certainly right... I do assume that you knew you were hammering and I have continued to do so. Maybe that isn't fair to you. But I just can't see any way that it makes sense that you DID NOT KNOW. I try to see it from your point of view, and it just makes so much more sense to me that you knew. And I don't like the argument that I must be scum if I don't just "give you the benefit of the doubt."

But I do think it really sucks for both of us if you really did just make a mistake and not realize how many votes were on Mozsuggs, and just tried to be funny at an inopportune time. I mean if that's true, it's basically my worst case scenario that I think is low on my scale of probability.

I also agree that we can't just rehash this a million times. We've said how we both feel.

I also think I can look for scum in other places today. There is nothing to be lost by that. If you really are scum, hopefully you will incriminate yourself further. If you're not, I am happy to have my mind changed. But it's probably not going to happen by going over this issue.

[windkirby]

VoD: The thing is that in my opinion it doesn't matter much which way it was, whether you knew you were hammering or not. Neither situation looks good. We can never

know

whether or not you knew you were hammering, as we were not in your head at the time, but to me, it's not pro-town either way.

And

major: FoS

on darkdude for showing such interest in masons and VoD's role. I was about to switch votes for a moment there.

[Cephrir]

I think VoD should claim to at least give us something to work on. Right now I feel as if we've been going over the same thing again for weeks. VoD seems most suspicious right now, so I think it's a good idea for me to ask for a claim. The resulting reactions could be what we need.

Perhaps for some reason I am not reading well enough, but all I see is defense after defense.

Everything in mafia is defendable, and WIFOM is so common that it makes little sense not to act on something just because it could go on both ways.

In this situation I believe we have to think simple and avoid over analyzing things. Because the way I see it is that the mafia is currently confusing the town by turning down one lynch proposal after another. I guess that's what happens when you lose 3 town in a row. Possibly one third of the players here could be scum. This would explain the lack of decisions.

How are the mafia "turning down one lynch proposal after another" if VoD is the only wagon we've had today? There are only 2-3 of them, y'know (probably).

And what, are we supposed to ignore what people say in their own defense? Lesse here, you were under suspicion at one point, right? Maybe we should bring it back up and disregard completely anything you or anyone else said defending you. And why the push for a claim? It seems to me that the three people voting VoD are the only ones that actually want him lynched, and as such I don't see him as in danger of a lynch, so why risk outing a power role?

Seriously, the guy has done only one thing even a little wrong, and other than that has been relatively protown IMO (though those long posts can be a lot to wade through). You really are far too guided by what seems to you to be "the general consensus". I think you're just trying to go with the flow and not be noticed.

Vote: darkdude

As for PP. I dunno, she seems townish to me. She may be pursuing one thing a bit overzealously, and it's something that's not much of a tell, but scum and town alike would be equally likely to not notice that the case on VoD is... lacking. But she definitely hasn't changed her opinion much if at all and hasn't backed off in the face of decent defense, and to a point I think it's a town tell. Maybe. Her backing off a bit in her most recent post is good. I think. For some reason she just doesn't feel like scum to me... I guess I can't really explain it. But I tried.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

But I do think it really sucks for both of us if you really did just make a mistake and not realize how many votes were on Mozsuggs, and just tried to be funny at an inopportune time. I mean if that's true, it's basically my worst case scenario that I think is low on my scale of probability.

This has been my only defence and yes it sucks and it is true.........one mistake made and all this attention. I think it is fair for me to try and at least convince people that it was a genuine mistake....and if I fail at this I believe I have not done anything else scummy enough since then to merit all this attention, but it looks like at least some people are seeing this and looking at other people too.

And lastly I do find PP's unshakable belief In my scuminess rather off putting but I will try and not let that distract me too much. I guess someone has to be picked for day two's first wagon and I was an obvious choice.