Mini #564 - Mafia in Crubtown - Game Over

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Well thanks windkirby (note I never said wankkirby) I must have confused your gender with someone else.
A player analysis is a very good thing to do as it shows your feelings/thought to everyone in the game and gives others something to look at if they have become narrow minded.

Now my last comment on Talitha and the mean roaring nasty person (me)...

It's basically saying "your analysis sucks" and "stop being lazy rawr." And then he actually said "Roar." in the same post.

Yeah that was pretty much it and It was intended to come across as harsh, I was concerned that talitha didn't have the time and/or concentration to be able to particapate well in this game (at that stage) but from her recent post I am more satisfied. If a roar gets someone to be more active in the game then I will roar, I might also meow and sometimes purr.

Now I'm in a bit of a bind about where to go from here also, there has been a lot of talk but no real direct scum hunting, but this is not all bad as any discussion is better than none. My top suspect is about to be replaced tomorrow which will pose a very annoying situation for me, as a replacement can hardly answer for the persons actions he is replacing.
I remember doing rather indepth player analysis of a few players day one (some thought it too long) and might be able to come up with some thoughts on players I have not yet looked at in the mean time.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

So those I have not piad due attention to:

Cephrir: His early game made me suspicious, agressive and keen to jump on minor things but I can see this was more to test people than to form bandwagons. He has been active day two but has not given too much to the game (scum huntingwise), but we have been talking a lot about certain issues role claiming, my hammer vote and meaness so active scum hunting has kinda been a little neglected. I am interested to hear more fully your thoughts about who you think is scum.

Talitha: Again someone I was weary about day one. She went five days without posting and her cases against people and votes seemed to be rather brief without much behind them, also the I will post more soon kinda promise didn't sit well with me. I didn't wish to see this trend continue day two as it would make it hard to get a read on her. I tried with asking for a prod (bovine rump) and a roar to get more from her. My day one suspicions have been mostly quenched with her posting over the last few days.

vikingfan:he may be a little light on the posting side but nothing he has said or done has made me that suspicious of him, he seems to me to be playing like a happy little townie.

Akonas: very difficult to get a read on him for me, he is very good at picking up on peoples points that lack logic and he is very quick to point out something he sees as scummy. Another thing is that he has a like of asking many questions of others. Now this looks like a rather active scum hunter using many tricks in the book. So why not pick him as town........well that is what my head says but something in my guts tells me to not be too hasty in this judgement. So I'm left with either model townie or model townie front with a scummy secret.

[QuantumFruit]

@windkirby:

His posting is pretty eradicate,

Erratic. Eradicate is like to get rid of.

Also, thanks for calling me intelligent.

Also, you seem very protective of your masculinity and it makes me want to call you a goober and laugh. So...goober!

@Cephrir: Is your whole list mostly based on gut feelings? If there are specific triggers for you, it'd probably be good to know.

@VoD: Why are you dismissive of vikingfan's less than average amount of posting but not about Talitha's (when that was the case)?

@Whoever this applies to: Why bad gut feelings about Akonas? (I don't think I could have negative gut feelings about him due to personal attachment, so I'd like to have these elaborated upon, though I know it's hard to elaborate upon a gut feeling.)

--

In general, I'm considering doing a player analysis sometime in the near future, but I'll wait until zed posts or is replaced for that.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

With viking vs talitha it was more a tone sort of thing as I explainded above.
Re: Akonas
Yeah very hard but I guess it is that nagging sort of doubt in the back of your mind the he is too good at town and doesn't let anything slip, makes me want to think of him at town but also to keep a close eye on him.

Also I am genderless and I kinda like it that way.

[Talitha]

I don't want to talk about my supposed lurking anymore - the whole subject makes me grumpy. But I think it's cute that VoD thinks his roar caused me to be more active.

Since we're posting scum lists, mine is -

darkdude
Cephrir
vikingfan

(gap here)

windkirby
zeddicus
VoD

Ran out of time today to post analysis of these players, but you can be sure I'll get to it. (I don't want to incite any more animal noises!)

[Crub]

Eigth Vote Count of Day 2

zeddicus (1):

thevampireofdusseldorf

QuantumFruit (1):

darkdude

darkdude (1):

Talitha

Not Voting (7):

Cephrir, QuantumFruit, Pink Puppy, windkirby, vikingfan, Akonas, zeddicus

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

[Talitha]

Oh, genderless? I hope you don't mind being refered to with masculine pronouns. I tend to do that with mafiascum people unless I know them to be female.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Ha I guess you get a lot of the animal noises from your kids.
And no I dont mind at all seems wierd that most people would just assume me to be male.

[vikingfan]

Talitha, the reason why I was considering doing so is because of the radical change in playstyle...a ton of posting the first day and barely anything since. Therefore, I was wondering if he was worried about implicating himself as scum. Now that it appears he's being replaced, I'll wait for his replacement to speak before I do anything. My apologies on being too hard on you, Talitha...it's just that sometimes it's difficult to know if someone's truly busy or if they're using that as an excuse to lurk. You're good now, at least as far as that goes. Cephrir is right, IMO...tone just doesn't translate online. But IMO, I don't think the whole thing really will lead to anything.

QF, I don't get why posting twice in a row makes DD scum...there's plenty of other things to criticize him on, but IMO, that is not one of them.

Since we're doing player suspicion lists:

zeddicus (due to what I said above, and will see what his replacement has to say)
darkdude

gap

Talitha
VOD (this is almost a tie between them)
windkirby
PP
QF
Cephrir
Akonas

Any reason QF, Akonas and PP didn't make it on your list, Talitha? and if you simply forgot, where are they ranked?

[darkdude]

QF, I don't get why posting twice in a row makes DD scum...there's plenty of other things to criticize him on, but IMO, that is not one of them.

Where did she say that?

[vikingfan]

QF, I don't get why posting twice in a row makes DD scum...there's plenty of other things to criticize him on, but IMO, that is not one of them.

Where did she say that?

Very end of post 424, bottom of page 17.

[Cephrir]

She was making fun of his calling Talitha scum for triple posting.

@Cephrir: Is your whole list mostly based on gut feelings? If there are specific triggers for you, it'd probably be good to know.

I just thought about how I'd felt about them earlier. What I mean by that is that I remember a few posts of Akonas' that I read and noticed something I thought was scummy, iirc, and figured I'd go back to it later. I'm going to have to do a player-by-player analysis to really get my thoughts in here seeing as I'm not even exactly sure. My earlier LoS may change because I'm actually going to go bother to isolate peoples' posts now rather than giving a list off the top of my head. In no particular order:

zeddicus- Isolating his posts has made me realize that I've been seriously overlooking zeddicus. I think he just... faded into the background for me, somehow. He's actually pretty light on content, and has a tendency to just show up and quote a bunch of things, agree with or critisize them, then drop off the face of the earth again. It sort of allowed him to get away with little content IMO. His only real input was critisism of mozsuggs, which was the popular thing to do at the time (don't take me wrong, I'm not critisizing that wagon, he just seems to go along with others often is what I mean) Followed PP on VoD a bit today (but not with a vote), but so did some others. Definitely rising on the scum-o-meter.

windkirby- Was defensive D1. He strikes me as a very jumpy and/or excitable player, moreso than I had realized. Made weird excuses after mozsuggs was lynched, should have said that at the time of his vote Made a really big logical leap to a me-VoD-QF scumgroup today, which was weird. Went onto VoD today. Recently, good analysis of players. Not sure what to think of him at this point.

vikingfan- A bit light on posting, but there's not much wrong with what he

has

said. I like his suspicions right now.

VoD- Enjoys walls of words. Does a lot of summarizing, seems like a

very

logic-based player (as opposed to gut). I've already repeatedly posted my opinion on his hammer vote, and don't think there's a whole lot of conclusions to draw from it, though it could be a factor later. Other than that he seems pretty much fine to me, contributes a lot to the game. Since he uses almost entirely logic and facts for his votes and suspicions it seems like he can be difficult to read.

Talitha- As we all know, she didn't post much until recently. Not a lot to say, not sure of her alignment, but I'm very interested to hear what she has to say about vikingfan and myself, especially because I have zero idea what she could possibly find suspicious about vikingfan since he's said so little.

QF- Talks a lot. Analyzes things a lot, sometimes too much, but seems to me like a very good player. Makes a lot of sense almost all the time. Seems pretty genuine, both her posts/logic and my gut feelings tell me she's town. Very clearly protown to me, easily moreso than anyone else. Don't think I'll be voting for her for a long time if ever.

PP- Hard for me to read for some reason. I find I usually disagree with her, as she was suspicious of QF on D1 and went hard after VoD for the hammer. She finally did back off and look elsewhere, though, which was good. I may have to revisit her posts in a game day or two if we're both still alive.

darkdude- Most everything that can be said about him has been. He's sometime illogical and often a follower, he doesn't scumhunt as much as he should and is too concerned for his own survival, currently suspects QF and Talitha based on next to nothing.

Akonas- The post that really got me going on him was when he voted VoD and afterwards said this:

I believe that's three votes; let's not run him up too fast, now, okay?

That really rubbed me the wrong way, encouraging people to bandwagon in a sort of subtle way. It's not just aggressive, it's aggressive without being, like, openly hostile. And plus, he seems really resistant to giving VoD the benefit of the doubt, like he wanted a lynch too much to listen to reason. He then unvoted VoD because he "didn't see much merit in the wagon", even though he claimed to be suspicious of VoD. Sort of like the opposite of wk's attitude which was that his vote should always be somewhere unless he has no idea; but this way makes one a bit more transparent in voting records. Also, he has a lot less posts than I realized. I'm willing to admit that he hasn't been that bad in general, though; this is a lot more based in gut than my other two suspects. I just have a lot to say about him is all since I haven't already said any of it.

I've notied that a lot of players in this game have been willing to go after people based on one or two posts rather than considering their overarching scumminess (going after VoD for the hammer, dd's attack on QF and Talitha). I think some of us need to think more broadly on occasion.

Updated scumlist:

zeddicus
Akonas/darkdude
(gap)
Talitha
Pink Puppy/windkirby
(small gap)
vikingfan
VoD
(gap)
QF

Vote: zeddicus

[Talitha]

Any reason QF, Akonas and PP didn't make it on your list, Talitha? and if you simply forgot, where are they ranked?

I generally only list players that I am suspicious of. If I have strong feelings that someone is pro-town I keep it to myself at this point in the game, rather than paint a night-kill target on them.

[darkdude]

Well guess they're painted for NK now anyways.

[windkirby]

Yeah, speaking of which, it is a little bit dumb to rank players from least scummy to most scummy. It's like posting a big sign for who the scum should kill for the easiest suspicion spread.

[Cephrir]

I guess. But it does help youu to organize your thoughts (it certainly helped me, at least), and if everyone does it then it forces the scum to come up with some concrete fake suspicions so that later they can't just mislynch/bus whomever is convenient later on.

[Talitha]

Well guess they're painted for NK now anyways.

Are they? I'm reasonably sure

you

would know.

it is a little bit dumb to rank players from least scummy to most scummy.

I don't think it's necessarily a dumb thing to. There are arguments for listing who you think is pro-town... eg. helping people get a read on you, or adding to the body of town knowledge the town will have when you're dead, or to help conceal a cop with an innocent result... but I still prefer not to mention it until closer to endgame, it's a personal preference.

Also please note that I didn't state that I think anybody is pro-town. Not being suspicious of someone is not quite the same as having evidence or strong belief that that person is pro-town.

[QuantumFruit]

@VoD: I'm not seeing how Akonas is "so good" as town. He hasn't posted much. And I don't really recall any posts of sheer brilliance (not that he isn't).

@Cephrir: I see what you're getting at with Akonas. I'll read over his posts for myself again though because I don't want to be easily persuaded. Ah well, if I get NK-ed I'll just know it was him.

@vikingfan:

QF, I don't get why posting twice in a row makes DD scum...there's plenty of other things to criticize him on, but IMO, that is not one of them.

Tone really doesn't translate well. I was being sarcastic because he got on Talitha for posting multiple times in a row and saying it merited questioning, suspicion, etc. and I was pointing out the absurdity of his statements.

@Talitha: Posting a list of only the people you are suspicious of means your are not suspicious of the others. The implication is that if there is no suspicion on them, they seem pro-town to you. There's a difference (maybe) now that you've stated that that is the case for you, but it's a connotative difference that won't really matter if scum is try to lynch the better contributors that it will not be so easy to incriminate. I completely understand what you're saying though and you're right in a logical, abstract sense.

--

Also, I like tone. It makes things fun.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

You dont have to be brilliant to be a good townie and as I have stated my view and it was not so good but too good. but here is my view and also somewhere at the top of the page

he is very good at picking up on peoples points that lack logic and he is very quick to point out something he sees as scummy. Another thing is that he has a like of asking many questions of others. Now this looks like a rather active scum hunter using many tricks in the book

Someone who looks to be doing very well at scum hunting and not appearing scummy. Sort of similar to viking in hasn't posted much but hasn't done anything that scummy looking.

[Talitha]

Why I think

Vikingfan

is scum. A recap of Day 1, by Talitha


In post 145 Zeddicus says: "we need to lynch darkdude now."

careful zed...I'm always leery of people who say we need to do things NOW... there is never a need to hurry. Longer days always help the town. Of course, there is a point where a lynch is good, but IMO, we haven't reached that point yet.

This post stood out to me. It strikes me as the kind of thing a smart scum would say trying to sound all reasonable, unhurried, pro-town and beyond reproach.
But look what he does next:

that being said, I'm sensing heavy scummy vibes from darkdude since he's overly paranoid at the moment and not giving really good reasons to go after Yvonne. unvote vote darkdude.

He joins the wagon he has just warned against! His words say one thing, but his actions say something different.
I think darkdude and Vikingfan could be scum together - I think vikingfan saw a wagon building on his scum buddy and did not want to miss the chance to be on the wagon early.

Then Akonas says that he finds 146 odd. Vikingfan replies in post 157

My rationale is that I didn't like the way that he said it, but on the other hand, darkdude is nowhere near lynching, so I didn't view as suspiciously as I would otherwise have, especially since no wave of votes occurred afterward. I do agree, though, I can't tell whether he just does that or not.

He's saying that he doesn't like the way zeddicus said "we need to lynch darkdude", but it would've been more suspicious if it had caused a wave of votes for darkdude. This just doesn't make sense to me a) because if a wave of votes had occured, we should be looking at the voters rather than the person who made the comment; and b) because Vikingfan voted for darkdude immediately after zeddicus's comment and would have been a part of that wave if it had occured.
Thus his explanation to Akonas reeks of poppycock to me.

this smells WAY too much like backtracking and trying to get the pressure off. unvote vote mozsuggs You're trying to get us to believe that you're just a lazy town player, but it's just as possible that you could be a lazy SCUM player. I agree with Akonas...tell us who you find suspicious. There's 8 pages of material here, more than enough to find something useful.

It's just a small thing but I feel like the vote for mozsuggs was slipped in at the end of a sentence because he didn't really mean it. Just a gut thing there.

Then Moz is accused of saying that everyone is scum. Moz replies with post 197 "Obviously there are only two scum!-use your loaf!" Then in post 198 he backtracks to question that and asks how many scum would be in this game.

2 scum? how on earth do you know that? 3 is generally accepted but there can always be more or less. but yes, there's generally MORE than two, but that's not a hard and fast rule.

Explain that very quickly because I don't like where you're going.

The "how on earth do you know that?" is very interesting to me. Remember that Moz is the person that Viking is voting for, so why would Viking say to someone that he thinks is scum "how on earth do you know how many scum there are?"... It doesn't make sense, unless Viking doesn't actually think Moz is scum.
Secondly I think Vikingfan is very quick to jump on this mistake, rather than consider it and qestion it. He stops short of saying "die Moz die die die", but seems to be trying to move things in that direction.

[Pink Puppy]

FYI everyone, zeddicus is also absent from another game i am in.

zeddicus- Isolating his posts has made me realize that I've been seriously overlooking zeddicus. I think he just... faded into the background for me, somehow. He's actually pretty light on content, and has a tendency to just show up and quote a bunch of things, agree with or critisize them, then drop off the face of the earth again. It sort of allowed him to get away with little content IMO. His only real input was critisism of mozsuggs, which was the popular thing to do at the time (don't take me wrong, I'm not critisizing that wagon, he just seems to go along with others often is what I mean) Followed PP on VoD a bit today (but not with a vote), but so did some others. Definitely rising on the scum-o-meter.
... [snip]...
vote zeddicus

Cephrir... did you not read my post saying that Zeddicus is absent from another game I am in (Roach Mini if you want to check)? Most of your argument falls apart if you consider that zeddicus hasn't been around to post more content and will need replacement.

RE: ranking...

it is a little bit dumb to rank players from least scummy to most scummy. It's like posting a big sign for who the scum should kill for the easiest suspicion spread.

I agree, but MANY players do it, so I don't know if it's really a tell.

I guess. But it does help youu to organize your thoughts (it certainly helped me, at least), and if everyone does it then it forces the scum to come up with some concrete fake suspicions so that later they can't just mislynch/bus whomever is convenient later on.

I think you are not taking into account that townies can change their mind according to how play develops and what others do, and maybe just time it takes to notice something. Usually a person's mental scum list is always changing, and anyone who tries to convict another based on a change in their scum list is pretty scummy, IMO.

And I think your vote on zeddicus is really weak, especially since I already posted that zeddicus seems to have disappeared from the site.

vote cephrir

[Cephrir]

zeddicus- Isolating his posts has made me realize that I've been seriously overlooking zeddicus. I think he just... faded into the background for me, somehow. He's actually pretty light on content, and has a tendency to just show up and quote a bunch of things, agree with or critisize them, then drop off the face of the earth again. It sort of allowed him to get away with little content IMO. His only real input was critisism of mozsuggs, which was the popular thing to do at the time (don't take me wrong, I'm not critisizing that wagon, he just seems to go along with others often is what I mean) Followed PP on VoD a bit today (but not with a vote), but so did some others. Definitely rising on the scum-o-meter.
... [snip]...
vote zeddicus

Cephrir... did you not read my post saying that Zeddicus is absent from another game I am in (Roach Mini if you want to check)? Most of your argument falls apart if you consider that zeddicus hasn't been around to post more content and will need replacement.

I absolutely did read that, and I definitely don't agree that my argument falls apart based on that. I reviewed his posts in isolation. I didn't consider dates really, and my entire case was based on what he actually had posted.

While he was around

, he was low on content, and even on Day 1 when he was here I totally overlooked him. Look at the way he posts. All he does is quote something, type a line, move on. He wasn't playing proactively, just responding to what others said. The vote on moz is the only post where he didn't do that outside of the random voting stage.

I guess. But it does help youu to organize your thoughts (it certainly helped me, at least), and if everyone does it then it forces the scum to come up with some concrete fake suspicions so that later they can't just mislynch/bus whomever is convenient later on.

I think you are not taking into account that townies can change their mind according to how play develops and what others do, and maybe just time it takes to notice something. Usually a person's mental scum list is always changing, and anyone who tries to convict another based on a change in their scum list is pretty scummy, IMO.

I realize that town can change their mind. But if someone posts alist, then only one day later is going hard after someone they listed as protown, say, the previous gameday,

and are basing their arguments on activities that had occured before they posted that analysis

, there's some reason to be worried. Obviously I wouldn't go so far as to "convict" someone over this, but it's something to consider. You're putting more extreme words in my mouth than were actually there.

[darkdude]

When are we going to get the replacement?

[Akonas]

Now my last comment on Talitha and the mean roaring nasty person (me)...

It's basically saying "your analysis sucks" and "stop being lazy rawr." And then he actually said "Roar." in the same post.

Yeah that was pretty much it and It was intended to come across as harsh, I was concerned that talitha didn't have the time and/or concentration to be able to particapate well in this game (at that stage) but from her recent post I am more satisfied. If a roar gets someone to be more active in the game then I will roar, I might also meow and sometimes purr.

Your coverup/backtracking has been noted.

This is definitely not the protown-protown advice/help

such as the one given by Akonas.

Emphasis mine; phrase noted.

---

vikingfan- A bit light on posting, but there's not much wrong with what he

has

said. I like his suspicions right now.

You like him for who he is suspicious of?

Akonas- The post that really got me going on him was when he voted VoD and afterwards said this:

I believe that's three votes; let's not run him up too fast, now, okay?

That really rubbed me the wrong way, encouraging people to bandwagon in a sort of subtle way. It's not just aggressive, it's aggressive without being, like, openly hostile.

It's aggressive, yes; I put a vote on him, didn't I? It was more along the lines of "let's put pressure on him but not lynch before letting him have a say."

And plus, he seems really resistant to giving VoD the benefit of the doubt, like he wanted a lynch too much to listen to reason. He then unvoted VoD because he "didn't see much merit in the wagon", even though he claimed to be suspicious of VoD.

You're saying that I want to get him lynched so badly that I unvoted? I simply wanted to get the point across that he did something bad. QF seemed very dismissive of it. I didn't see that much merit in the wagon because I acknowledge that it could very well be a slip-up, and I don't see him as all that scummy other than that.

I've notied that a lot of players in this game have been willing to go after people based on one or two posts rather than considering their overarching scumminess (going after VoD for the hammer, dd's attack on QF and Talitha). I think some of us need to think more broadly on occasion.

We need to think broadly. Agreed.

---

Vote: vikingfan

. I never liked him in the first place, Talitha makes some good points, and if I remember correctly, she has a highly-functioning scumdar.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

[quote="Akonas"]Your coverup/backtracking has been noted.[/b]
Very broad accusation there and going back over the issue in question I find no such thing but if you believe this to be the case please back it up with some evidence.