Mini #564 - Mafia in Crubtown - Game Over

[Crub]

First Vote Count of Day 2

thevampireofdusseldorf (3):

Pink Puppy, windkirby, Akonas

Not Voting (7):

Cephrir, thevampireofdusseldorf, QuantumFruit, Talitha, darkdude, vikingfan, zeddicus

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

As I have already stated scummy play/scum tells dont work on their own and favour mafia being able to more easily lynch town. To me you have to look behind these actions and even pro town actions and look at the motivations/reasons for these from a scum point of view and/or a town point of view.
Also comments after the lynch of a townie like these:

(I would here like to state that I was adding in my vote in hopes of the newb's confessional collapse.)

and

But that was not the time. I, for one, didn't want to see him lynched at that point; I didn't have time to unvote beforehand.

hold no more weight than my "I didnt realize that it was the hammer", they are done post event with the knowledge that moz is town, but in these cases niether of them were questioned about there involvment in mozs death and both were pressuring me for my part after I had already exlained my actions.

[Pink Puppy]

I agree that I don't like how windkirby says Mozsuggs had a confessional collapse, and how quantum called him a suicide. I think suicide is only used when you vote yourself -- which mozsuggs never did.

But I don't agree that scum tells favor mafia. That would be pretty ridiculous. Scum tells don't mean a person is 100% definitely mafia. They just mean that if you lynch a person who gives a scum tell, you are more likely to lynch mafia than if you had lynched randomly. No scum tell is 100%

I do agree context is important though too. I don't so much mind that you put the hammer on mozsuggs... or even that you voted him. I only mind that you were happy to lynch someone without reading all their posts, and that you sounded amused/excited. That attitude seems off to me.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

P P I dont think you understand my post properly:
I think using scum tells on their own makes lynching town easier for scum....

I don't so much mind that you put the hammer on mozsuggs... or even that you voted him. I only mind that you were happy to lynch someone without reading all their posts, and that you sounded amused/excited. That attitude seems off to me.

Ok you are approacing your conclusion with the belief that I was aware of the fact that I was lynching moz which sure you are entitled to do but if you view it under the belief that I was unaware then the not reading all of mozs post and being amused take on a different meaning.
It is getting kinda frustrating that all these conclusions are being done on the basis of me knowing I was hammering moz. If the first premise for the accusations are flawed then I can hardly argue with the conclusions.

[vikingfan]

Given that of those left not on the moz vote are only three: Pink Puppy, darkdude, Talitha, and you say you are not sure of darkdude do you have any good reason to be suspicious of PP or Talitha?

PP seems fine to me. I would like to see more content from Talitha though- haven't seen enough of her posts to make a clear judgment.

and to quantum, I think some mafia were doing both (we're assuming there's more than one here). Usually, mafia don't all do the same thing, as a distancing measure (although moz was so suspicious, it may not have mattered much in this particular case).

[windkirby]

I agree that I don't like how windkirby says Mozsuggs had a confessional collapse.

Ah, let me explain. What I meant was that I was hoping that since he was such a n00b that if he really was scum he would just break and say "alright I'm scum! now just get rid of me!" due to all the pressure. I did not mean to imply that this was actually what happened.

I also disagree that all votes of a bandwagon are equal. Each one puts the victim closer to the lynch and therefore they are escalatingly intense.

Also a note- I'm be no means going to feel comfortable lynching VoD solely on this argument. I just like to have my vote on someone unless I have absolutely no clue who's mafia.

[darkdude]

I agree that I don't like how windkirby says Mozsuggs had a confessional collapse, and how quantum called him a suicide. I think suicide is only used when you vote yourself -- which mozsuggs never did.

Agreed. Yet I also think that the last votes on someone has the most value....obviously no one would fear their death due to a single vote.

Does anyone have an estimate on how many scum there are? I don't know if there's a standard around here or something....

[Talitha]

3 to 4 scum would be standard in a mini, but on rare occasions there are only 2 scum. We only had one kill last night but that doesn't necessarily mean only one anti-town entity. It could be one group of 2, one group of 3, one group of 4, two groups of 2, a group of 2 and an SK or a group of 3 and an SK. Did i miss any possibilities?

More tomorrow, including a vote, hopefully. Too tired tonight.

[Pink Puppy]

P P I dont think you understand my post properly:
I think using scum tells on their own makes lynching town easier for scum....

I don't so much mind that you put the hammer on mozsuggs... or even that you voted him. I only mind that you were happy to lynch someone without reading all their posts, and that you sounded amused/excited. That attitude seems off to me.

Ok you are approacing your conclusion with the belief that I was aware of the fact that I was lynching moz which sure you are entitled to do but if you view it under the belief that I was unaware then the not reading all of mozs post and being amused take on a different meaning.
It is getting kinda frustrating that all these conclusions are being done on the basis of me knowing I was hammering moz. If the first premise for the accusations are flawed then I can hardly argue with the conclusions.

I can't take your word for the fact that you didn't know you were hammering. You could easily be lying.

Even if you didn't know you were hammering, you HAD to know that a lot of people were voting mozsuggs and he was getting close. That might be the time to like... CHECK to see how many votes the guy has on him.

[Pink Puppy]

VoD, if you had only read the last half a page before you voted, you would have seen a vote count, with mozsuggs at 4 votes, and then zeddicus voted moz, and then cephrir did. That puts moz at 6 votes before your post.

It wasn't that confusing.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

As I have said before I thought it was the L-1 vote, you dont have to believe me but all I am asking you to do is read my post and have a think about it from that point of view. I would hope to get a balanced view on it you could at least do this.

[Pink Puppy]

I still feel the same way, whether is was the lyncher or the L-1, whether you knew it was or not.

I will quote myself here for you

I don't so much mind that you put the hammer on mozsuggs... or even that you voted him. I only mind that you were happy to lynch someone without reading all their posts, and that you sounded amused/excited. That attitude seems off to me.

[QuantumFruit]

@Akonas: I wasn't saying that VoD's post timing wasn't potentially suspicious. It's something to look into if its habitual, etc., but I don't think in and of itself it was necessarily scummy. People make mistakes (yes, that's a truism), and I don't think his action merits a vote. (So, I'm not voting for him.)

And now we have a VoD bandwagon formed. Lovely. Could you be more dogmatic, Akonas?

@Pink Puppy: I called it a suicide in reference to vikingfan's post 263, actually (I was responding to it). I suppose it doesn't especially matter; I just thought I'd clear that up.

After seeing mozsuggs' alignment, I'm not sure about darkdude, especially since it seems that he may be framed by the mafia. It seems like, to me, the mafia were almost entirely sitting back and letting mozsuggs commit suicide (which is basically what he did).

[Cephrir]

Pink Puppy, you're pursuing this very hard and not really giving VoD the benefit of the doubt at all. I do see what you mean with some of your points, but I can't tell exactly how serious you are about this from your posts. So here's a question: Based on the evidence we have and that you are talking about, do you want us run VoD up to a claim right now? Or do you simply think he's the most suspicious and want to have your vote somewhere, like wk does?

[Pink Puppy]

It's just that nothing he has said has made me feel any better about him. And he's not really addressing my point that he didn't read moz's posts, or that he seemed to have a joking attitude. He's only saying that he wouldn't have acted that way if he had known it was a lynch, and he didn't realize his vote was the hammer. And that argument is WIFOM because I can't ever know his motivation.

Do I want you guys to run him to a claim? Only if you think he's scum too! I'm not trying to make decisions for everyone. Feel free to persue something else if you wish.

And why should I give VoD the benefit of the doubt? If I see something scummier, I'll vote someone else, and just file this problem I have with VoD away for later. If he does other things that I find fishy, I would return.

To be honest, I'm sure I have problems with other people's play too. But I just siezed on VoD because because of how he didn't read all of moz's posts and was acting too jokey during a lynch. These jumped out at me. But there are other things that I haven't analyzed fully. Like for instance how you jumped off mozsuggs and then jumped back on. Not sure what that means, if anything, but I would like to read your posts again.

[darkdude]

3 to 4 scum would be standard in a mini, but on rare occasions there are only 2 scum. We only had one kill last night but that doesn't necessarily mean only one anti-town entity. It could be one group of 2, one group of 3, one group of 4, two groups of 2, a group of 2 and an SK or a group of 3 and an SK. Did i miss any possibilities?

I guess there would be 4 anti town in this game then, since we have power roles like Doctor and probably a Cop.

In that case we have to lynch a scum today right? If we miss and kill another townie Day 3 might be scum majority. Or we can wait today out to see who the mafia kills tonight if we really can't decide.

That said I agree with Pink Puppy. I want VoD to claim.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

darkdude I am not going to claim at 3 votes (hope I can count right now), I thought you might have realized that claiming early (e.g. moz) is not a good idea. You dont even have your vote on me and you want me to claim..........and you say you agree with PP who as I read it never said she wanted me to claim.

PP........I kinda get the feeling you are trying to pressure me into a long defensive post to give you more reason to push your wagon. I also have issues with the way in which you are saying things:

I still feel the same way, whether is was the lyncher or the L-1, whether you knew it was or not.

I will quote myself here for you PP wrote:
I don't so much mind that you put the hammer on mozsuggs... or even that you voted him.

I only mind that you were happy to lynch someone without reading all their posts, and that you sounded amused/excited.

That attitude seems off to me.

Ok you are saying that I was happy to lynch someone not reading all there posts: correction I was not aware I was lynching him
You also say you feel the same way regardless of if it was the L-1 vote or the lynch vote: If you feel the same way regardless try posing a question to me about my post from the L-1 perspective

But I just siezed on VoD because because of how he didn't read all of moz's posts and was acting too jokey

during a lynch

Again you are insinuating I knew I was lynching, I have posted (my first post after moz's death about my actions if there is anything you find specificly suspicious then I am happy to answer it.

It's just that nothing he has said has made me feel any better about him. And he's not really addressing my point that he didn't read moz's posts, or that he seemed to have a joking attitude. He's only saying that he wouldn't have acted that way if he had known it was a lynch, and he didn't realize his vote was the hammer. And that argument is WIFOM because I can't ever know his motivation.

I am not saying that I wouldn't have acted this way if I knew it was the lynch vote, I am saying read it in the context I thought it was posted in, a
L-1 vote.
I know this is tricky as there is no proof to know I was aware or unaware of placing the hammer vote: all I can do is ask you to view it in each case and decide personaly which you believe, saying I don't know or don't care either way is fine but attacking me from a perspective of me knowing it was (a lynch vote) indicates you have already decided.

[vikingfan]

vote darkdude

. I don't like the way he's consistently pressuring vod, especially to claim, without putting his vote where his mouth is.

I'm not sure yet on vod, but I know I definitely don't like the way dude is playing this.

[darkdude]

Oh well this community doesn't like talking without voting? Well then I will vote.

Vote: VoD

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Since I can't expect anyone to do it for me I will have to do it myself:
Here is my post in the way I intended it to be seen as a L-1 vote

Mozsuggs I dont feel like reading through all your recent posts just yet, I may go back to look over them for amusment at some stage.

I'm telling moz I do find his play funny but excessive

I think your biggest flaw in this game has been the I know im innocent and if I say it enough with enough conviction people might believe me. We have no way what so ever to know your innocent on day one but we can judge this on how you play, your actions, votes, accusations, what you say in your posts etc.

I'm pointing out to moz how to convice us of his alignment other than using the whole Im town It's true defence

General mind degenaration of syphillis in its last stages seems to be more of a tell for yourself than anyone else. I think you may be far beyond treatment and at this stage your brian will slowly start losing function and you will become unaware of your surrondings what is happing to you and you will die. This is the syphillis virus eating holes in your brain.

an attempt at a joke but with the tone of it seeming his demise was eminant again to provoke a reaction

My three possibilites for moz
1) Jester (suffering terminal syphillis)
2) Scum (suffering terminal syphillis)
3) Plain ole vanilla townie (suffering terminal syphillis)

im not sure of either and am continuing on the joke by including the jester possiblilty

My conclusion:
either this illness will terminate him for us or we do a mercy killing
My personal opinion is a mercy killing is the humane way to go
vote:Mozsuggs

I'm placing the L-1 vote in the same already started joke manner for mozs benifit and was interested to see how he took it...would he collapse his defense, admit to being scum, use my points to form a better defence

Thats as best a defence as I can give on the whole issue,
If you guys still have any questions about this post in particular that you feel have not been answered than shoot as I'm happy to answer them, as I find most of the suspicion that has been generated against me has come from speculation as to my motives.

[Akonas]

@Akonas... he said it was a mistake. If you don't believe him, pursue that, I suppose. And besides, it was obviously going to happen at some point. I would have done it in that situation (well, I might have waited, but still). Not caring is just a noob tell. And do you really think he didn't deserve it? He was erratic and couldn't be trusted in endgame anyways (see: voting for me because he doesn't like me), and we almost certainly would have lynched him at some point, especially given the townie claim. Pretending otherwise is really just silly.

I suppose you do have a point, it's just that VoD seems like a good player to me, and I can't see him hammering so suddenly as scum. Even most noobs know that hammering a townie makes you look bad. I also can't see him missing those warnings, either, though. I'm still inclined to believe him for now based on his not being a terrible player, but if a case builds on him later based on scummy behavior, that might be something I'd reconsider.

I'm seeing a turnaround here... mostly the point I'd like to ask you about is why you think that the fact that you consider VoD to be a good player gives him extra leeway; if anything, I would think it would get him less. Yes, I can see the "it would be bad for him as scum" argument, but he could easily say it was an accident or that mozsuggs deserved it as well.

@VoD: I understand that you didn't think it would be lynch, but still... I don't see the logic behind running him up so high so fast. I know, I know, I should have been on more often, but still.

I have to go now; more later (I only finished Page 11 so far).

[QuantumFruit]

Point is, you probably shouldn't even really be joking around in a L-1 vote. Regardless of the tone, though, there was seriousness to your vote as well. I mean, you did find issue with the way mozsuggs was playing, and certain things he did were quite indicative of scum. Based on his behavior, I probably wouldn't have been entirely hesitant to place the L-1 vote, or even the hammer. Obviously, I'd think about it, but being amusing is fun.

That's why I'm not jumping on VoD for all this business.

Darkdude's kind of playing this like a newbie, so I don't know what to make of it. I mean, pushing someone for a claim so early is just plain strange. Then, he decides to vote for VoD as soon as he's told to (so as to be compliant with what seems to be the general consensus) and gain favor and make sure not to look scummy. He's being a little too much of a sycophant there for my taste - to me, a bit of a scum-tell. Because other behaviors on his part are so newbish, though, I don't know what to make of it right now. Any insights, people? I'm just afraid of lynching another newb-town behaving as scum.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

@Akonas and everyone yes I could have said moz deserved it as that is what a few others I'm sure thought, in fact it might have been easier to argue that, but alas I told the truth, that I messed up and have no way to prove that to anyone.
As for running him up I didn't think it too bad to put him at L-1 considering his previous behaviour, and I was genuinely wishing for a response from him, for me to decide if I thought him town or scum.

[Cephrir]

I'm seeing a turnaround here... mostly the point I'd like to ask you about is why you think that the fact that you consider VoD to be a good player gives him extra leeway; if anything, I would think it would get him less. Yes, I can see the "it would be bad for him as scum" argument, but he could easily say it was an accident or that mozsuggs deserved it as well.

It's because he would know better than to quicklynch someone. Besides, look at that post. Is that the post of someone who knows they're hammering? Not really. The only possibility, if he's scum, is that he was already planning to make this argument. I find that difficult to believe because he could just as easily have not voted and not been put in the spotlight like he has been today, as mozsuggs was obviously going to be lynched eventually.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Darkdude's kind of playing this like a newbie, so I don't know what to make of it. I mean, pushing someone for a claim so early is just plain strange. Then, he decides to vote for VoD as soon as he's told to (so as to be compliant with what seems to be the general consensus) and gain favor and make sure not to look scummy. He's being a little too much of a sycophant there for my taste - to me, a bit of a scum-tell. Because other behaviors on his part are so newbish, though, I don't know what to make of it right now. Any insights, people? I'm just afraid of lynching another newb-town behaving as scum.

QF I think dark dude is very far off from a lynch with one vote while im sitting on L-2, talking about dd in that way is just plain wierd, but as it doesn't hurt to ask what others think of someone:
I see darkdude as very new, following other peoples suspicions, asking for a claim, conforming to what is acceptable (town) behaviour and placing suspicion on people while sitting back.
Now the biggest scum move I believe noteworth is:
Following other peoples suspicions: doing this to blend in not raise to much suspicion and from my point of view to not have to build a case on your own which is harder to do as scum (especialy new scum) than town.
All the other behaviours I think are just as much newb town tells as scum ones.