Mini #564 - Mafia in Crubtown - Game Over

[Talitha]

Just noticed that Darkdude's "reread of recent posts", including the time taken to post the results took 3 minutes.

vote: Darkdude

I still have a couple of other suspects I want to make a case on, hopefully later today, but I'm rather happy with my vote right here.

[Akonas]

Gosh, you remind me of people who just enjoy whining.

Yeah I guess I am whining. I'm kind of pissed that Quantum Fruit made a pointless statement regarding my vote. Because she could have complained about any of the "rules" I listed above.

Because you're looking at exactly what people say rather than the motivation behind them and the motivation of them accusing you.

@VoD: I think Talitha's been posting enough; I don't think that she's been slacking off; people can say a lot without posting hella often.

darkdude: I think QF was just asking you to do your own thinking and avoid just bandwagoning.

[QuantumFruit]

Because you're looking at exactly what people say rather than the motivation behind them and the motivation of them accusing you.

This is all very true, but based on my intimate knowledge of you: hahahahaha!!! (You know why, I hope. Otherwise, this is a pointless post.)

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

But if players are ok about people posting very little because they have busy lives this then gives rise to acceptance of limited posting/lurking. How do you tell each apart, and if beeing busy is an acceptable excuse for a whole game then that becomes a credible lurking defence.

I guess this is really a point for discusion outside of this game, I'm not saying this is what talitha is doing and I am pleased she has contributed more over the last few days. But I had cause to worry over day one and the start of day two.

and you guys are telling her that she's lurking and accusing her of being scum.

If you can find me directly accuse Talitha of being scum please quote it for me, this is the second time you have accused me of accusing someone which as I see I have not done. If you feel this was indirect then still please provide a quote or something.
Meow.

[QuantumFruit]

If someone chooses to be away with out notifying or is forced away from a game I shouldn't just ignore them till they come back if I find them scummy,

The implication was that someone=Talitha. The other implication was that you found her scummy. You didn't directly state it, but that's a blatant implication, I found.

Also, VoD, which was the first time I accused you of accusing someone of scum?

Wait...what is the explanation for this? Triple post and lots of rephrasing? It was obvious that you were asking me a question, so I do not see the need for this. Seems really weird behavior to me. Perhaps I will be considered doing a OMGUS for this, but I think following your absence and consequent peculiar timing of posts (most of the time immediately after someone points out inactivity) deserves my questioning.

This was referring to Talitha. The mention of OMGUS implies that he is suspicious of her, first that she wasn't posting and now that she was posting a lot. (Paradox, dear?)

--

No, neither of you guys said "Talitha is scum. Vote: Talitha." But insinuations get into people's heads more so than even direct votes. (By people I mean other voters.) It's not even that though - you were just being downright mean to her.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Ah that quote was in refrence to zeddicus and if viewed in its contex properly,

If someone chooses to be away with out notifying or is forced away from a game I shouldn't just ignore them till they come back if I find them scummy, and looking back over day one and the moz votes I found it a worthy case to put forward.
I doubt he will be lynched while not here and all points are outlined for him to answer when he comes back. Given this also helps people widen there sights to more than just me and dd.

it is hard to see it being directed towards talitha. It looks as if you deliberately pulled that out to fit you case as the second part of that sentance explains who this is in reference too.
And your previous accusation post 416

Darkdude, VoD, why are you guys being so damn hard on Talitha? It just doesn't make sense to me and I find it an itsy bit suspicious. It's like she's an easy target and she'll be gone for a while so then you can build a case against her when she can't argue back. Also the "lurking" - someone's busy so they're DUN DUN DUN "lurking" and they're SCUM. (Obviously I'm being intentionally absurd at this point - it's 1:30 AM.) But yeah, "lurking" is an easy excuse to accuse someone with and I'm just not buying it.

Also if you could illustrate where I tried to build a case against her when she wasn't even here that would helpful.
Your reaction to this talitha thing seems to me to be very protective and emotional not logical at all.

[Talitha]

it is hard to see it being directed towards talitha. It looks as if you deliberately pulled that out to fit you case as the second part of that sentance explains who this is in reference too.

Hmm, not quite. I could see QF reading that post (#410) quickly and being mistaken as to who you were refering to. You did not use names or make it especially clear - and you were talking about MY busy-ness in the same post.

Your reaction to this talitha thing seems to me to be very protective and emotional not logical at all.

Some people just don't like to see other people being treated unkindly, if they feel they don't deserve it. It can detract from people's enjoyment of the game. This is a very mild case and I'm not too worried about it, but I'm glad to see people who care about others' feelings. As Mr Flay says, why can't we just lynch each other like civilised human beings?

[QuantumFruit]

Reasonable on all counts. What Talitha said about my defense of her is true. If you recall, VoD, I defended you when I felt you were being treated unfairly as well. In any case, going on too long defending people for personal and not game-related reasons can detract from the game, and so I will shut up about it. I imagine everyone gets the point and can make their own decisions.

And I see now how it was referencing zeddicus, since you were talking about him in reference to the moz vote earlier. Fair enough, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Darkdude did try to build a case against her, however paltry it was. I think I accidentally lumped the two of you together in my wild emotional frenzy.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

So whats next a group hug before the lynching.
All is fine but if an accusation against me is done inacuratey by blinding emotion I will point it out. And QF I can understand your wanting everyone to have an enjoyable game but I think we are all (mostly) grown up and can take a few knocks. IMO ths game has been rather sanitized (bar moz) and friendly comapared to others. I belive the mod has guidelies on what is acceptable behaviour in the game and I expect players to agree to these. Expecting players
to conform to your standards of behaviour/decency/kindness might be a bit too much to ask.

Anyways on a more game related note:

Mod

: can you tell us of zeddicus status.

[windkirby]

vote: darkdude

His play has been shaky the entire game. Of course, it could be dismissed as a newb learning the ropes (this happened during my first game), his most recent post seems to be reaching on the level of detatching one's arm. Since when should a minor contradiction, if that was even what it was, instigate such a confident suspicion of these two characters? Seems very forced.

[darkdude]

Yay, finally I feel as if I'm onto something!

Um, where did I repeat myself? Apart from directing the same question to 3 different players who were all voting or threatening to vote for someone who is not here.... I don't get it. Back up your assertions please, Darkdude.

You asked me to clarify on something, which is perfectly fine, then made a second post to address VoD, AND THEN used a third post to say "ya that's what I wrote so please answer".

I don't really think this is scummy, but it was just plain weird. And with QF's reaction things are getting weirder...

@darkdude: What is a paradox? (Don't be cheeky and define paradox.) The only thing I am defending Talitha in is that she has a busy life and you and VoD were being harsh.

I named your case the paradox, but by definition it was more of a simple contradiction.

the only way we can figure anything out is by looking way too much into everything (including votes).

Darkdude, VoD, why are you guys being so damn hard on Talitha?

You say it is good to look into everything, then go on immediately to contradict yourself saying we shouldn't suspect (I myself was not really suspecting at the moment) because it is mean. First of all, I see ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE of either me or VoD being mean to Talitha. I based my questioning on an obvious abnormality, and wasn't even suspicious of scummy actions. Plus I think I was quite polite. I've seen many questions on less evidence, and I am 100% sure you have too. So this really makes no sense and seems like scum logic. VoD (read his later posts) is right; I feel you're for some reason really protective of her.

Just noticed that Darkdude's "reread of recent posts", including the time taken to post the results took 3 minutes.

Yeah, I just noticed the obvious suspicion which QF caught for herself when I pressed the submit button. You guys all know that moment of enlightenment when you press the magic button right?

That's part of the reason editing is not allowed...scum usually find their own mistakes after they post.

And based on that I'm scum...?

As I said I'm still new, but wouldn't THIS be considered OMGUS???

If you can find me directly accuse Talitha of being scum please quote it for me

Same here.

[QuantumFruit]

@darkdude: What is a paradox? (Don't be cheeky and define paradox.) The only thing I am defending Talitha in is that she has a busy life and you and VoD were being harsh.

I named your case the paradox, but by definition it was more of a simple contradiction.

I was asking why what I said was a paradox. "What is a paradox [in what I had said or done]?" Investigation is different from being plain mean. By "hard on Talitha," I mean "mean to Talitha." I did not mean "interrogating Talitha."

Darkdude, I would like you to read my posts in their entirety and not just what is convenient. I already posted where you attempt to build a case against Talitha. (Not that you shouldn't.)

I wasn't getting on your cases for asking her questions or even necessarily suspecting her if you could back it up. You guys didn't directly call her scum, but it seemed as though you kept insinuating she was lurking and that there was no way to prove that she was actually busy, etc. Then, when she got busy again, you could be like "Oh, see, she's lurking! BAM!" You hadn't done it yet, but it seemed like scum planning ahead and building up the possibility. (Maybe I'm just an itsy bit suspicious of this behavior because I did it in my last game where I was scum and we won.) Anyway. I just thought I'd point out that possibility.

Go reread my posts, wherever I'm chastising you two, I specifically say that it's for the way you do stuff (mean to Talitha) not what you do (question her).

--

Also,
@VoD: Mod said that if zeddicus doesn't post by Tuesday morning he'll be replaced in response to Talitha's question about a page ago.

[darkdude]

I still don't see just HOW THE HELL anyone was mean. Did I say "CLAIM NOW SCUMZORZ!! DIE SCUMZORZ"?

Quote me where I'm being mean to her.

Your argument makes no sense.

I want to quote VoD

So whats next a group hug before the lynching.

Darkdude, I would like you to read my posts in their entirety and not just what is convenient. I already posted where you attempt to build a case against Talitha. (Not that you shouldn't.)

Sincerely sorry, but I addressed the parts I thought were relevant. If you would like me to elaborate please post the specific parts. I'll try to read better.

his most recent post seems to be reaching on the level of detatching one's arm. Since when should a minor contradiction, if that was even what it was, instigate such a confident suspicion of these two characters? Seems very forced.

Nice metaphor. I'm hurt.

I don't know about you but it seems to me this MEAN argument makes no sense at all. First of all no one was mean, and second even if we were not very considerate it would be a normal part of the game. No reason for dismissing evidence.

Furthermore, it is within my experience that most scum would try to appear "nice" in trivial issues like this one. This is definitely not the protown-protown advice/help such as the one given by Akonas.

[Crub]

Seventh Vote Count of Day 2

darkdude (2):

Pink Puppy, Talitha

zeddicus (1):

thevampireofdusseldorf

QuantumFruit (1):

darkdude

Not Voting (6):

Cephrir, QuantumFruit, windkirby, vikingfan, Akonas, zeddicus

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

zeddicus will be replaced if he still hasn't posted in a little over 42 hours.

[QuantumFruit]

Okay, I'm going to address this finitely and I don't want to come back to this any more. You guys were not being very understanding of Talitha's personal life and that bothered me. That's what was mean. You can't expect a person to put mafia above all else. Now can we drop this?

If you guys are suspicious of me for the chiding or anything I did in that time period, fine. If there's anything you actually want me to address, fine. But I think we should move on to something more productive.

For example, why are there only for people heavily in discussion? People put their two cents in occasionally (Akonas and windkirby) on this page, but it's disproportionate. Are you guys busy or what's going on? Brilliant insights, please.

[Cephrir]

What both of you are missing here, IMO, is that tone doesn't translate over the internet. I haven't actually gone back and looked for evidence of "meanness", but that's just my guess at what's going on here. I think darkdude is making a massive reach here regardless though, because he seems to think QF is scum based on her misinterpreting his tone and/or just disagreeing.

Furthermore, it is within my experience that most scum would try to appear "nice" in trivial issues like this one. This is definitely not the protown-protown advice/help such as the one given by Akonas.

You are soooome sure Akonas is town. Based on that one piece of advice he gave you, you're basically deciding he's town and giving him a free pass?

I find this ionteresting because Akonas is up pretty high on my suspect list, even if that list isn't very long. Also, I'd like to hear more from vikingfan, but what little he has posted is, to put it in his terms, "concerning".

[darkdude]

You are soooome sure Akonas is town. Based on that one piece of advice he gave you, you're basically deciding he's town and giving him a free pass?

Not dead sure of course, but he has more evidence suggesting he is town than other players (of course, all from my perspective). If I were to put people on a scale of suspicion, QF would be at one end and Akonas would be on the other. That's what I'm saying.

Okay, I'm going to address this finitely and I don't want to come back to this any more. You guys were not being very understanding of Talitha's personal life and that bothered me. That's what was mean.

When did I say "you should drop your life and kids and play mafia"? I only initially suspected something due to her absence, but now that is not even the issue any more. The latest suspicion I had from her was based on that weird posting behaviour. Which in turn makes you suspicious for accusing me of something which no one has done.

[windkirby]

unvote

Hate to keep switching sides, but darkdude has a point: it was VoD and not him who was being hard on Talitha in any way, IMO... Realizing this has made his reaction more reasonable.

[Pink Puppy]

Well I've been trying to read this whole exchange closely, and am surprised to find I am actually in agreement with darkdude.

unvote darkdude

Yay, finally I feel as if I'm onto something!

Um, where did I repeat myself? Apart from directing the same question to 3 different players who were all voting or threatening to vote for someone who is not here.... I don't get it. Back up your assertions please, Darkdude.

You asked me to clarify on something, which is perfectly fine, then made a second post to address VoD, AND THEN used a third post to say "ya that's what I wrote so please answer".

I don't really think this is scummy, but it was just plain weird. And with QF's reaction things are getting weirder...

This first part is not a big deal to me... I don't support this.

Next:

@darkdude: What is a paradox? (Don't be cheeky and define paradox.) The only thing I am defending Talitha in is that she has a busy life and you and VoD were being harsh.

I named your case the paradox, but by definition it was more of a simple contradiction.

the only way we can figure anything out is by looking way too much into everything (including votes).

Darkdude, VoD, why are you guys being so damn hard on Talitha?

You say it is good to look into everything, then go on immediately to contradict yourself saying we shouldn't suspect (I myself was not really suspecting at the moment) because it is mean. First of all, I see ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE of either me or VoD being mean to Talitha. I based my questioning on an obvious abnormality, and wasn't even suspicious of scummy actions. Plus I think I was quite polite. I've seen many questions on less evidence, and I am 100% sure you have too. So this really makes no sense and seems like scum logic. VoD (read his later posts) is right; I feel you're for some reason really protective of her.

I actually really agree with this.

QF, I have tried looking into your posts. Where have you pointed out the "meanness"? I don't see it personally. Can you at least show us what you thought was mean?

I don't see the meanness myself, but I don't expect everyone to think the same as I do, or have the same emotions at the exact same time. If QF thought she saw meanness... okay, I can accept that. But I think it is a little weird that she has not been able to point to any exact "mean" quotes. She's just dancing around the issue.

Okay, I'm going to address this finitely and I don't want to come back to this any more. You guys were not being very understanding of Talitha's personal life and that bothered me. That's what was mean. You can't expect a person to put mafia above all else. Now can we drop this?

How were they supposed to be more understanding when they didn't know about Talitha's busy life, and it's something you can't prove anyway?

And the fact that nobody even voted Talitha is quite important. VoD, DD and viking (i think) did comment that they were afraid Talitha was lurking. Personally, I was not worried about Talitha, but I was also not worried about other suspecting her of lurking. She can make the whole issue go away if she posts good content, which she has. I don't understand why QF was so upset by it. But what I really object to is that she can't point to any proof to back up her feelings.

[Pink Puppy]

unvote

Hate to keep switching sides, but darkdude has a point: it was VoD and not him who was being hard on Talitha in any way, IMO... Realizing this has made his reaction more reasonable.

And I am not liking your contributions lately, WK.

[QuantumFruit]

@Cephrir: Why Akonas high on your suspects list? Actually, what is your suspects list?

@darkdude: What is weird about her posting behavior? She doesn't post when she is busy and she posts when she is not. You post multiple times in a row as well. Huff.

Mean:

Talitha well that isn't exactly what I had hoped for but at least it is something, I have already outlined my thoughts on zed day one and today If you fail to find them I am not going to provide them just for you.

It's basically saying "your analysis sucks" and "stop being lazy rawr." And then he actually said "Roar." in the same post.

That's what triggered it because Talitha had already explained that she had three kids and a job. I did overreact, though, this is true. And I did yet again just lump VoD and darkdude together. Sorry. I guess it

was

more of a tone thing. I felt like VoD was being mean (that was one of his earlier posts that I quoted, he was more reasonable later on) and then everything else seemed to have a negative tone. I was wrong and I can see why that would make me look suspicious. Or, if not suspicious, then just plain stupid.

@PinkPuppy: The meanness issue wasn't to incriminate either of them, it was just bothering me. I felt they should have been more understanding of Talitha's personal life and otherwise look into her actions, but based on what she's posting and it seems like they were hardly responding to the content of her posts.

[Pink Puppy]

Mean:

Talitha well that isn't exactly what I had hoped for but at least it is something, I have already outlined my thoughts on zed day one and today If you fail to find them I am not going to provide them just for you.

It's basically saying "your analysis sucks" and "stop being lazy rawr." And then he actually said "Roar." in the same post.

Okay I can see that. You are reading into it a little more than what is written, but I see how that comment could be taken that way.

[windkirby]

I do realize I haven't been posting a whole lot, and I don't have any good RL excuse; it's really just more of a lack of knowing where to go from here. (And I hate to be a ball-lless whiner, but I don't understand what's making vikingfan and zed's postage so much better than mine.) But seeing as how I don't really have anything to do right now, I'll go through player-by-player.

Cephrir -
Has been an extremely aggressive player who never seems not to be targeting anyone. He's a little scary, but I don't see him as anti-town in the least.

vampireofdusseldorf -
Hard to get a good read on this player, seems to offer long posts of commentary every two pages or so. (I do not like that he mispells my name three times in post 114 as well as seems to think that I am a girl, which I am not, because I have a weiner in addition to a blue arrow thingy next to my name.) At first it seems like he's only trying to seem pro-town, but as the game goes on he seems more sincere. I still think that the hammer, unintentional or intentional, was very bad, but after reviewing his play so far I'm a bit less suspicious.
PS: VoD, my name is

windkirby.

Not winkkirby, not wondkirby, and not wonkkirby. Also, I am male. Thank you.

QuantumFruit -
Seeing the whole "meanness" argument made me realize that I probably haven't looked at her as hard as I should have. QF seems like an intelligent, defensive player who could be very dangerous as scum, so I'm examining her posts much more from hereon. Watch out.

Talitha -
Not too suspicious. I don't mind her posting habits all that much, as they seem reasonable, and she seems pretty pro-town. Still, it's always the person who least suspect...

Pink Puppy -
The icon is creepy, but she seems pretty pro-town. But still, she seems to be coming after me recently for my posting habits when I would say vikingfan's and zeddicus's have been much more questionable. Not a big deal, though.

windkirby -
I have no idea how he gets those abs.

darkdude -
Pretty newbish player but shapened up and made some good arguments. Still on the map, but I'm not going to pursue him as of now.

vikingfan -
His very rare posting concerns me, but when he does say something it is purposeful and, while not large, substantial. I'd like him to contribute a little more, but I do not really suspect him.

Akonas -
After another read, I'm pretty suspicious of Akonas. His posting is pretty eradicate, and it takes him until post 103 to finally get serious! His posts don't sit with me too well, though unfortunately I can't specify too much exactly what about them bothers me. He just seems pretty suspicious to me.

zeddicus -
Like Cephrir, he is also very aggressive, but his lack of posting recently has prevented me from getting a reading. I hope he picks up his prod or gets a good replacement.

Unfortunately, that's really all I can "contribute." I don't really like saying empty words, so I usually only post if I feel strongly about something, and I don't really feel strongly about the recent events, so I haven't contributed much.

[Pink Puppy]

FYI everyone, zeddicus is also absent from another game i am in.

[Cephrir]

@Cephrir: Why Akonas high on your suspects list? Actually, what is your suspects list?

I don't really remember why, but I recall a few things he's said rubbing me the wrong way. Maybe it's gut as well.

My suspects list is bordering on nonexistant... basically just Akonas now that I think about it. Next up would be darkdude who I'm not really all that suspicious of, followed by the people I don't think are scum but can't get a good read due either to lack of content or just not knowing: Talitha, vikingfan, PP and zeddicus. While I'm at it, the list would continue (now in the protown end of the spectrum) with VoD, windkirby, then QF.