Mini #564 - Mafia in Crubtown - Game Over


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Post Post #800 (ISO) » Wed May 21, 2008 2:21 pm

Post by darkdude »

Woohoo, back from the dead!
As far as town is concerned at the point Viking said this, it was most likely a game of mafia vs town, because we only had one kill. I can't prove it, but reading between the lines of that post it just really feels like Viking knows there's more than one killer.. could be either because he's a lone killing role, or because he's mafia and targeted someone who didn't die on night 1.
Well, obviously I can't tell you what mindset Vikingfan was in when he wrote that, but as his replacement I would have to say that either he did mean that, in which case I have no idea what he was trying to do, or that you guys are reading too much into something ambiguous.


Now, something I've been dying to say, but didn't get a chance to before I died:

I think windkirby is scum.

In the last few posts before my former role was lynched, windkirby wrote this:
- I still believe that lynching darkdude is a horrible idea and a baseless bandwagon. Would someone please provide some hardcore evidence that he is scum? I haven't found any! I've already asked for this and barely recieved a response.

- If we are lynching darkdude, what kind of information are we hoping to achieve? If he's town, who do we turn to? If he's scum, who do we turn to? If your answer to the above is that we're lynching him for information, please answer these questions.

- I don't really like the way that Akonas suddenly started talking to QF more aggressively, as if he's been "caught," but this may not be indicative of alignment.

- In conclusion, I think the darkdude bandwagon is total crap, and I'm becoming increasingly suspicious of anyone on it. Stop me by providing some reasons.
This strikes me as VERY confident that windkirby KNEW that my former self was innocent. Looks like he's trying very hard to play the pro-town card. I am aware, now and back then, that some of my actions could easily be perceived as scummy. But when day was about to end, lynching me would have been best because otherwise we get No Lynch and I would still be a distraction for town. If I were to be lynched later it would be worse. I think most town players would lynch me. But it seems windkirby wanted to use this chance to appear pro-town by saying "he's innocent, see I told you so". He knew I was going to be lynched, and so I think he did that to show that he was correct, attempting to gain some trust from the town.

Think about it the other way. If there were a pro-town player who really didn't want to see me lynched, I doubt that person would say so so outwardly. Because if I DID turn up scum, then he would become the next suspect almost immediately for going against most of the town defending whom they now know was scum. He had to be pretty confident that I was innocent to pull that one off.

Also, Quantum Fruit, whom I have been suspecting in my former life, acted similarly, saying I was scummy but having a "gut feeling" and refrained from voting for me.

I was told that casting suspicion and not voting was considered scummy here, and I have learned. But why did everyone else forget about this? QF tried throwing around suspicion, then did not vote for anyone, and did not explain anything at the end of Day 2 when I made a case against her, and remained silent up to this point. Yeah okay "not into it". Can we really believe this?

quoting the vote count at the lynch:
Final Vote Count of Day 2
darkdude (6): Talitha, vikingfan, Cephrir, Akonas, EmpTyger, Pink Puppy
QuantumFruit (2): darkdude, windkirby

Not Voting (2): thevampireofdusseldorf, QuantumFruit
I demand a full explanation from windkirby and QF.
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Post Post #801 (ISO) » Wed May 21, 2008 2:25 pm

Post by Crub »

Fourth Vote Count of Day 3

darkdude (2):
Talitha, thevampireofdusseldorf
QuantumFruit (1):
windkirby
Not Voting (4):
QuantumFruit, darkdude , Akonas, Pink Puppy

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch.
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Post Post #802 (ISO) » Thu May 22, 2008 6:21 am

Post by QuantumFruit »

I didn't feel like you were scum, darkdude. I felt like you were being a bit simplistic in your analysis and maybe you weren't that into it then, I don't really know. At the same time, though, I had a gut feeling that you were not in fact scum - I didn't want to vote for you simply because it was the popular thing to do.

You didn't make too much of a case against me, just that I defended Talitha when I felt you were being harsh toward her. I might have been oversensitive, but that's about it. I thought we'd had ample discussion on that matter and we were growing repetitive so I shut up. That's all.

Also, busy year: getting a job, going off to college in a couple of months, have to sell all the junk in my house and find tenants...so, kind of time-consuming and intense.
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Post Post #803 (ISO) » Thu May 22, 2008 6:50 am

Post by darkdude »

I felt like you were being a bit simplistic in your analysis
As opposed to going into deep WIFOM and throwing suspicion everywhere?

You still did not explain your sudden change of behaviour starting at post #666.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... &start=666
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Post Post #804 (ISO) » Thu May 22, 2008 10:23 am

Post by windkirby »

This strikes me as VERY confident that windkirby KNEW that my former self was innocent. Looks like he's trying very hard to play the pro-town card. I am aware, now and back then, that some of my actions could easily be perceived as scummy. But when day was about to end, lynching me would have been best because otherwise we get No Lynch and I would still be a distraction for town. If I were to be lynched later it would be worse. I think most town players would lynch me. But it seems windkirby wanted to use this chance to appear pro-town by saying "he's innocent, see I told you so". He knew I was going to be lynched, and so I think he did that to show that he was correct, attempting to gain some trust from the town.
Did we see any place where "I told you so" was implied? The reason I was trying to get the bandwagon off you was because I saw absolutely no reason for you to be the lynch of day 2. Everyone kept saying your posts were laced with scum, but I didn't see it, and I really didn't want people lynching you so blindly when there were more scummy players to be lynched.

And really, if I were scum, I wouldn't have tried so hard for risk of being chased by people for it. I know, I know, complete WIFOM, but I'm pretty sure that if I was scum, I would be trying to lay lower than that. Just throwing that out there, even if it's not that valid of an argument.

Lastly, I'm a little wary of your "I always meant to say it" card, as you had two posts directed
toward me
, even
towards that particular post
, yet you expressed no suspicion. (Only commenting on the logic of the post.) You were on
death row.
If you had anything to say, then was the time to say it. I wasn't that suspicious of vikingfan, but you simply claiming you never got to say this, but in reality switching sides on an issue because your new role is anti-town, is a possibility.
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Post Post #805 (ISO) » Thu May 22, 2008 2:21 pm

Post by darkdude »

Lastly, I'm a little wary of your "I always meant to say it" card, as you had two posts directed toward me, even towards that particular post, yet you expressed no suspicion. (Only commenting on the logic of the post.) You were on death row. If you had anything to say, then was the time to say it. I wasn't that suspicious of vikingfan, but you simply claiming you never got to say this, but in reality switching sides on an issue because your new role is anti-town, is a possibility.
Yes, I foresaw that point.

Truth is, I really did try to get everything I knew out of my mouth before I died, but I only realized the implications of that post of yours after the thread had been locked.

Dead people are sometimes more inspired, if you know what I mean.
Did we see any place where "I told you so" was implied?
Here, of course
- In conclusion, I think the darkdude bandwagon is total crap, and I'm becoming increasingly suspicious of anyone on it. Stop me by providing some reasons.
Gives you reason to attack any player who voted for me on the next day, and giving yourself a defense for not voting me.
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Post Post #806 (ISO) » Fri May 23, 2008 10:38 am

Post by Talitha »

Welcome back darkdude.

It's been a busy week for me. I'll have time to catch up here in the next day or so.
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Post Post #807 (ISO) » Fri May 23, 2008 11:21 am

Post by windkirby »

Gives you reason to attack any player who voted for me on the next day, and giving yourself a defense for not voting me.
This is not "I told you so." It's, "I don't like your reasoning." I'm not saying that I know you're town; I'm saying I do not see the reasoning they use to conclude otherwise. "I told you so" implies bragging, which I most certainly did not do.
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Post Post #808 (ISO) » Sat May 24, 2008 4:40 am

Post by darkdude »

"I told you so" MUST imply bragging?

Regardless, stop arguing about semantics. You know well what I meant.
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Post Post #809 (ISO) » Sat May 24, 2008 4:58 pm

Post by Akonas »

Do you know what he was thinking?

Also, WIFOM. You're criticizing him for trying not to get a townie lynched? I think that maybe he really didn't see any hardcore evidence. You're reaching a bit far. And you've given me no reason to believe you're not scum.
because your brain affects your guts (and vice versa).
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Post Post #810 (ISO) » Sat May 24, 2008 10:49 pm

Post by Talitha »

Darkdude: Just to be clear, are you denying any extra knowledge about killing roles in this game?
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Post Post #811 (ISO) » Sat May 24, 2008 11:02 pm

Post by Talitha »

While we're on the subject of windkirby defending darkdude1 (which I agree could be the act of a scum trying to appear very pro-town), I don't want to forget about Akonas who implied that darkdude was town, then apparently changed his mind and voted to lynch him.

So, who is more likely to be scum?
a) the player confidently defending the innocent lynchee because he 'can't see the case'
b) the player who agreed that the lynchee is scummy, but refrains from voting due to a gut feeling that he isn't scum
c) the player who (when referring to the lynchee) says he doesn't want to lynch another townie.. then changes his mind and votes to lynch

Trying to be objective, I think C is definitely the most scummy.... then A, then B.
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Post Post #812 (ISO) » Sun May 25, 2008 6:51 am

Post by darkdude »

Darkdude: Just to be clear, are you denying any extra knowledge about killing roles in this game?
Yes. There is no possibility of my role knowing that there were more than one killing party at the point when that statement was made.
Also, WIFOM. You're criticizing him for trying not to get a townie lynched? I think that maybe he really didn't see any hardcore evidence. You're reaching a bit far. And you've given me no reason to believe you're not scum.
I'm criticizing him for being way too confident. I have no idea how he could be 100% sure that I was innocent. Because though he never stated that, that's the feeling I get when I read over his posts before my lynch. Again, the last part of his post
windkirby wrote: - In conclusion, I think the darkdude bandwagon is total crap, and I'm becoming increasingly suspicious of anyone on it. Stop me by providing some reasons.
seems that he knew everyone voting me was going to be wrong.
So, who is more likely to be scum?
a) the player confidently defending the innocent lynchee because he 'can't see the case'
b) the player who agreed that the lynchee is scummy, but refrains from voting due to a gut feeling that he isn't scum
c) the player who (when referring to the lynchee) says he doesn't want to lynch another townie.. then changes his mind and votes to lynch
Very good summary. I think B, because gut feelings should never have priority over logic. A is next, because with a deadline approaching even I would have voted for myself. In the last few posts before the end of Day 2, windkirby only stated he didn't like the bandwagon on me but suggested no alternative. C is the least scummy out of the three IMHO because again, people DO occasionally change their minds, and as mentioned before, one could have voted just to deal with the deadline.
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Post Post #813 (ISO) » Sun May 25, 2008 8:04 am

Post by windkirby »

I'm criticizing him for being way too confident. I have no idea how he could be 100% sure that I was innocent. Because though he never stated that, that's the feeling I get when I read over his posts before my lynch. Again, the last part of his post
windkirby wrote: - In conclusion, I think the darkdude bandwagon is total crap, and I'm becoming increasingly suspicious of anyone on it. Stop me by providing some reasons.
seems that he knew everyone voting me was going to be wrong.
It's like if a police officer searched someone's house without a warrant without any evidence that the person is a murderer. I wouldn't like it even if he
was
right. My suspicions on the voters by no means hinged on your alignment. I didn't like it because I saw no reasoning. It had nothing to do with the outcome of your alignment at all.

My statement was not "Do not lynch darkdude." It was
tell me WHY,
which everyone failed to do miserably. Perhaps if it was, "don't lynch darkdude," then your point that I didn't blatantly shout out someone else to lynch would be valid, except that it wasn't, plus I was voting for QuantumFruit anyway, whose lynch I was and am still happy to see.

So I fail to see a valid point from you.
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Post Post #814 (ISO) » Sun May 25, 2008 8:44 am

Post by darkdude »

My statement was not "Do not lynch darkdude." It was tell me WHY, which everyone failed to do miserably. Perhaps if it was, "don't lynch darkdude," then your point that I didn't blatantly shout out someone else to lynch would be valid, except that it wasn't, plus I was voting for QuantumFruit anyway, whose lynch I was and am still happy to see.
You saw no reason, and therefore your stance on the issue was effectively opposing my lynch. If you say "I don't support this bandwagon; there is no reason" that's practically the same thing as "I don't want him lynched". So your point...?
It's like if a police officer searched someone's house without a warrant without any evidence that the person is a murderer. I wouldn't like it even if he was right.
LOL
I guess you don't like the concept of mafia then?
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Post Post #815 (ISO) » Mon May 26, 2008 3:55 am

Post by windkirby »

darkdude wrote:
My statement was not "Do not lynch darkdude." It was tell me WHY, which everyone failed to do miserably. Perhaps if it was, "don't lynch darkdude," then your point that I didn't blatantly shout out someone else to lynch would be valid, except that it wasn't, plus I was voting for QuantumFruit anyway, whose lynch I was and am still happy to see.
You saw no reason, and therefore your stance on the issue was effectively opposing my lynch. If you say "I don't support this bandwagon; there is no reason" that's practically the same thing as "I don't want him lynched"./quote]

I was not opposing your lynch, but the way in which it was happening. Had someone given me some good reasons why you were scum, I wouldn't have minded so much. However, a lot of them were "newbie tells" rather than scumtells, which I didn't like, as I was attacked a bit for newbiness in my first game. I suppose that there could've been something sympathetic in my defense of you, but bottom line was that if people had supplied some better evidence, I would have lightened up.
It's like if a police officer searched someone's house without a warrant without any evidence that the person is a murderer. I wouldn't like it even if he was right.
LOL
I guess you don't like the concept of mafia then?
I was referring to real life, whereas mafia is a game. Honestly, if a situation like mafia ever occured in real life, I wouldn't participate; I would run out of town...
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Post Post #816 (ISO) » Mon May 26, 2008 8:49 am

Post by darkdude »

I was referring to real life, whereas mafia is a game. Honestly, if a situation like mafia ever occured in real life, I wouldn't participate; I would run out of town...
But you applied real life principles to mafia...?
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Post Post #817 (ISO) » Tue May 27, 2008 6:35 am

Post by QuantumFruit »

@darkdude: What change are you referring to? The fact that I admitted that I was being too adamant with the "you're being mean to Talitha" thing, or the fact that I got mean and confrontational towards you? In any case, you actually did a long post that had substance after that, which was my goal.

Also, I don't necessarily think that logic must always take precedence over gut feelings. Often, something a player says really gets under your skin and you can't exactly pinpoint it, but it's true nonetheless. Scum can easily deceive other with logic - in fact, that's how a good scum plays it...it all makes sense! Anyway, I again have to disagree with you, darkdude - though, that gives me a better understanding as to why you think I'm scummy.

There's no real way of proving this, though, because if you're suspicious of me already then it's
me: I think he's town.
(he's town)
you: See, you knew he was town because you're scum and you know already!
(he's scum)
you: You were covering a scum buddy's bum.

or

me: I think he's scum.
(he's town)
you: You deceived us!

So, basically the only way I can redeem myself is voting scum that's actually scum, and even then I'll be bandwagoning unless I figure it out completely on my own.

And as to this:
windkirby wrote: - In conclusion, I think the darkdude bandwagon is total crap, and I'm becoming increasingly suspicious of anyone on it. Stop me by providing some reasons.
That's just: "justify your positions, guys." How is that bad? He's using an accusatory tone because then people actually respond to it - that's what I did with you.

@windkirby: Why would you still like to see my lynch? Why are you suspicious of me?
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madness, starving hysterical naked...

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Post Post #818 (ISO) » Tue May 27, 2008 9:08 am

Post by windkirby »

darkdude wrote:
I was referring to real life, whereas mafia is a game. Honestly, if a situation like mafia ever occured in real life, I wouldn't participate; I would run out of town...
But you applied real life principles to mafia...?
I used the "cop" scenario merely as an example of the suspiciousness of doing something without having palpable logic behind the act. I didn't like how they were going after you without giving satisfactory reasoning. It is perfectly within my rights to ask them why they want you lynched.

QF - about 50% of it is gut, and the rest is Cephrir's backing-you-up throughout the game as well as your lack of any direction at the deadline of Day 2. This seemed to me to be very unnatural. I'll give you another readthrough and see where I am after that.
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Post Post #819 (ISO) » Tue May 27, 2008 9:25 am

Post by darkdude »

Where are all the other players? We can't get much done if only a handful of the alive players are talking.
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Post Post #820 (ISO) » Tue May 27, 2008 3:41 pm

Post by Crub »

I prodded tvod and pp yesterday. Everyone else had posted recently enough to avoid prodding.
Moo?
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Post Post #821 (ISO) » Tue May 27, 2008 8:46 pm

Post by QuantumFruit »

@windkirby: Fair enough...I haven't been playing this well. Why did my indecision seem contrived, though?
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Post Post #822 (ISO) » Wed May 28, 2008 12:13 am

Post by Talitha »

I don't know if it's just tiredness but darkdude2 seems different to darkdude1 somehow... I can't see a good reason to change my vote right now. But if I changed it would be to Akonas, with windkirby as 3rd choice for my vote.
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Post Post #823 (ISO) » Wed May 28, 2008 3:10 am

Post by Pink Puppy »

I have a problem with the suspicion that DD is throwing on WK. "Too townie" is not a really great scumtell, because it has a high probability of hitting someone who really is just townie. Plus, it gets really confusing if you lynch people for acting townie and you keep people for acting scummy (on the basis that scum wouldn't out themselves so obviously). I think it really cuts down on your ability to catch scum if you flip the criteria like that. It presents a convenient way for scum to act like scum and be considered town. Which is a badbad standard for a town to set.

Anyway... liking DD less than his previous incarnation.
darkdude wrote:
Darkdude: Just to be clear, are you denying any extra knowledge about killing roles in this game?
Yes. There is no possibility of my role knowing that there were more than one killing party at the point when that statement was made.
I'm a little frustrated that we can't ask viking what he was thinking when he wrote that stuff expecting more kills.
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Post Post #824 (ISO) » Wed May 28, 2008 7:58 am

Post by darkdude »

I'm not saying windkirby is too pro-town. I'm saying that it seemed he was sure I wasn't scum.

I'm a little frustrated that we can't ask viking what he was thinking when he wrote that stuff expecting more kills.
I think he was just stating a hypothetical example of when claiming is good.

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