Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

[cassielle]

sup

i think ooo is town but im still catching up off and on, dont got any other reads yet
got half of D1 left and its a small topic so im gonna take it slow

if you want me to take a stance on something thats happened already ASAP gimme a post link and ill do that for you

or like tell me "ISO THIS PUNK" or somethin idk

[cassielle]

i dont do townblocks and i dont do vengeance and i def dont do buddies

talk to me with content not buddying

[cassielle]

i like slower because i want people to tell me what they want me to take stances on, it tells me how to read /them/ and when i catch up in context im that much stronger of a player

[cassielle]

Well that sure killed the funny over dramatic story I had planed out.

You're no longer of any interest to me

.

Your slot isn't much to talk about either.

It'll be more interesting once you get caught up and engage with the town. ps

"

bestie

"

you might consider catching up faster than slower.

also this post is full of pointless shadethrowing, in bold, for not wanting to play silly games with them in place of getting AI content
someone who townreads aubrey, i would like you to defend this behavior

ftr idc about aubrey defending it to me because afaiac thats always going to be NAI
defending it to people who already townread them is more likely to give me something i can build a good read on

[cassielle]

good

i like hungry sharks

they give me lots of good reads

and thanks!

[cassielle]

so no one wants me to take a stance on specific things that have happened in the game thus far?

what is this

no one had an epic slot v slot showdown yet?
there havent been any coordinated pushes?
no one has had a massive lapse of reason and damn-near scumclaimed then waffled about it for three pages of vitriol before the heat died down from lack of activity?

im disappointed in you all, especially you
yes, you
the person reading this
even if you arent playing

seriously tho where is towns vigor? why is no one begging for a chance to drop their case for scumreading some slot or another on the lady replacing in who is practically asking for it? why isn't there a line of people trying to convince me to get on their vanity wagon?

explain why the gamestate is like this, someone, anyone

[cassielle]

readslist based on a light read under conditions of sleep deprivation

ooo town
doomfeathers town
hawk townie
aubrey nulltown
havingfitz null
kop null
kidamn null
rels nullscum
creature scummy
moogin scum
hapa scum

im not voting yet however

first i want people to defend their votes to me
and if theyre on a vanity wagon i also want them to GET REALLY LOUD about that damned wagon because just sitting your vote on someone without pushing the slot has absolutely no point
except i guess for coasting scum because they can hide among all the townies also engaging in the bad behavior but w/e

arguably tho lurking on a vanity wagon is equivalent to avoiding playing the game and that makes me want to shriek like a banshee at passing cars tbh

[cassielle]

actually on further consideration the banshee shrieks are more about the weirdness i been soaking my brain in all morning

but it still makes me want to do it and if a mafia game makes me want to go and have FUN™ in some other way that is a bad thing. a very bad thing indeed, as the records of the tunguska event attest

FUN™ is no laughing matter folks

[cassielle]

idk, I'm hesitating to vote hapahauli because I don't want accidental hammers and I'm sorta lazy to count votes.

L-4

[cassielle]

Cass I know you said it was a quick skim but can you explain those top 3 scum reads for me?

creature is not playing his town meta here, and i have first hand experience with it -- this is an unmotivated fluffposting creature definitely
i dont "do" meta really, but creature's meta is one of those such that breaking it would be like trying to force basic rules of mathematics to change for you

i was sleep deprived and dont really remember my dislike of the moogin slot but i remember i really, really didnt like something i saw. call it a gutread for now

hapa feels like coasting scum, sort of just a tone read, lot of communicating around people and subject dodging

[cassielle]

Okay, do you know how I play scum?

ISO inflation

which is all i see tbh

you only seriously answered two or three questions

[cassielle]

first two is too early to take town!Creature seriously
the powertown posts felt forced af
181-187 feel like town creature but NOTHING ELSE in your iso does

and i mean you /are/ aware of your meta so
i think you can fake a couple town!Creature posts

[cassielle]

And there's a clear difference between me lurking as scum and me lurking as town because of disinteress.

cant see it

besides: lets make it interesting then
whats your read on me?

[cassielle]

he doesnt care im p sure

hed still be lurky-looking as town and hard to sort without resorting to meta (which i hate), but theres a method to reading him that ive slowly learned and this isnt any town!Creature i know

what about you, why are you on the wagon youre pushing?
convince me

[cassielle]

Hapa is at L3. Kop is at L4. I don't have one in particluar I care more for. Unless something interesting happens, I think these are our two lynch candidates.

VOTE: kop

--

Pre edit: I'll give you the rundown of my votes. I originally voted fitz. His opening reminded me of scum trying to seem protown by asking un-important questions. Shortly after he went in VLA. I was unsatisfied and remained on my vote while contributing to the town with my thoughts. Upon his arrival he made a very long and unimpressive attack on me imo. For reasons that I've mentioned I started to doubt my read a bit. I'm still "eh" with him, but I'm in doubt now. Figure I'll wait, and see how he progresses. My next vote was on Hawk. Ultimately it was due to a miscommunication error more than likely. Now my vote is where you see it.

This rundown is only in regards to my votes and not my full set of thoughts and reads. As you finish reading the thread, those will become clear to you.

why you place your votes in a given place is more telling than reads tbh
town thinks about where their votes are, scum just wants a mislynch or (occasionally) to bus, so scum has to make shit up when called on it
meanwhile reads are just as often based on gut as they are on logic or heuristics

this is a good explanation

[cassielle]

Welcome to the game, casielle! I'd give you suggestions to watch out for, but it's pretty much the whole player list.

i dont do townblocks and i dont do vengeance and i def dont do buddies

talk to me with content not buddying

I like you already.

i like slower because i want people to tell me what they want me to take stances on, it tells me how to read /them/ and when i catch up in context im that much stronger of a player

I could see this from either town or scum. At first I thought it was scummy; I thought it looked as if cassie was letting other people pick her fights for her, letting her out of doing real work. But it could also be risky as scum if asked to analyze a partner, and it would also eliminate the option of just starting a non-viable wagon for the purpose of appearing to be doing something. Sure, she could still do it, but if she has to work on the major wagons as well, it no longer has purpose.

Well that sure killed the funny over dramatic story I had planed out.

You're no longer of any interest to me

.

Your slot isn't much to talk about either.

It'll be more interesting once you get caught up and engage with the town. ps

"

bestie

"

you might consider catching up faster than slower.

also this post is full of pointless shadethrowing, in bold, for not wanting to play silly games with them in place of getting AI content
someone who townreads aubrey, i would like you to defend this behavior

ftr idc about aubrey defending it to me because afaiac thats always going to be NAI
defending it to people who already townread them is more likely to give me something i can build a good read on

He's obviously just messing around. He's not going to try to get you scumread for that.

By all means explain how it was disjointed. Pretty sure my dots were connected. Furthermore I Lovvvve how Hapa is completly fine in your books, yet I'm still scum. Unless you forgot, he had the exact same thoughts as I did, and in a perfect world should still be receiving your suspicions.

I'd just like to interject that similar reads are not necessarily a basis for being on the same team. Tone and line of reasoning are also important. Yes, I know it's not my argument.

ftr: i never claimed he was going to scumread me for it, i was applying very light (i didnt even vote) pressure and watching the resulting wriggling
it was boring, so i ignored it and moved on, so i could go back to it later if necessary. seems unnecessary now so i got no problem talking about it

scum never clone reads in an AI way in my experience, its way too obvious and too-scummy-to-be-scum doesnt even work with it. town does that "let me just pull someone elses readslist" thing as often as scum does and for broadly similar reasons (not wanting to read, inability to decide wrt certain slots, etc) and no one gets away with it without pressure that scum would rather avoid

scum readslists tend to have obvtown slots agreed on but everything below that is all weird and twisted up into a mess with thin reasoning. they gutread their townleans, focus on slips for their scumreads, and generally just seem to forget that town is ALWAYS scummy, scum is sometimes townie. makes it hard to spot because town does the same thing, but i generally get an uneasy feeling from a scum readslist, like they read a broadly similar game where all the small details got switched around

i didnt like you talking mechanics the way you did but it felt like town flubbing it instead of scum gambiting and your slot's recovered well imo

why is your vote where it is at?

[cassielle]

thats thin reasoning

1 act (even if it is a consistent one) is not enough to lynchvote someone. pressurevote, ok. but. but, town could easily be in a state where theyre uneasy throwing votes around in case scum push the wagon home on a ML and theyre not confident enough to single out a read and say "this is the one". among other things

im not defending the slot, im saying your vote has poor justification. you should remedy that and build a better case imo... although kop's slot has pretty small amounts of meaningful content to read, so it might not be possible

either way i prefer other wagons for today. for instance i am pretty sure creature is bussing hapa atm: its a classic scum-location on the wagon, a poor push with no attempts at town!Creature's usual laconic wagon pushing, and creature didnt even skim to see nothing had changed since the last vc (just a page ago, 2 pages now) which shows a bit more than simple disinterest (which is itself a light scumtell for Creature anyway)

i want to push the hapa wagon but id rather push the creature wagon for d1 because i think we get more out of letting hapa have rope to lynch himself with d2 atm
and im unconvinced on kop atm, tho i think i could be persuaded to change my mind. either way i dont like that wagon, feels like lynchbait

[cassielle]

so no one wants me to take a stance on specific things that have happened in the game thus far?

I've been wagoning Kop and throwing suspicion at havingfitz. Got thoughts on them?

no. feel coasty/lurky, too little for me to grab onto and shake properly, but lurking is NAI

i want people to defend their votes to me

Kop has coasted a lot, but more importantly refuses to vote anyone despite having scolded somebody earlier for not voting suspicions. I'm still trying to figure out his possible motive, but he basically told us to scumread him.

yes got that vibe but that feels like frustrated town not scum to me atm. again open to changing mind but not seeing it yet

idk, I'm hesitating to vote hapahauli because I don't want accidental hammers and I'm sorta lazy to count votes.

Wow. That is lazy. No offense.

this is one reason why i want him out d1

I think I've ben mislynched twice in all the years I've played this game. Rels and OoO haven't mislynched me ever in particular, and barely anyone actually has.

Sweet glory. On one hand, he just implied that, if he's getting lynched, he's probably scum. On the other hand, would scum be so careless as to say that, since they tend to be worried more than townies about how they're perceived. Anyone have thoughts on this?

WIFOM, could be arrogant/frustrated town or gambiting/dumb scum, ignore

[cassielle]

ftr town motivation from hapa in that statement: angry and wants to throw shade at people (sort of indirect ad hom -- "if youre voting me to lynch today you are the dumbest townies i ever played with") to get them off of a ml wagon
bad play but not strictly scummy
scum motivation: hoping town would think scum would never ever say this, not watching their words and flubbing it, same exact motivation as townie one (but with vehemence being due to wincon instead of arrogance)

so yeah ignore that statement its WIFOM at best and NAI at worst

[cassielle]

i have offsite experience (not a ton but enough) and ive read a lot of games, both in realtime and otherwise

im not an alt, but i am (i guess, in a sense) experienced, i just havent been drowned in site meta much so occasionally i come off the opposite (noob)

i dont usually like pre-flip associatives unless i scumread all slots involved, and then its to say "and which one of these is the best for today", but heres the gist of where that goes:
hapa is active, not making a very good showing for himself, and generally stinks of scumplay
creature is lurky, pushing other folks wagons with no original reasoning, and playing to his scum meta (which most players here seem unaware of)

this means hapa will not be much harder to point at d2, and creature can probably hide among the townies d2, not to mention that a scum slot defending creature d2 could very well push "lurking is nai" (true but irrelevant) and save his slot from the lynch before we recognized what was happening. on the other hand hapa is so widely scumread that i'd bet even bucks his non-creature partner was already on wagon when creature joined (and that both will be on wagon if hes the lynch du jour)

i scumread them both, and creature and hapa have been distancing in a very artificial way (as you yourself noticed) from game start, and hapa is getting the short end of the stick there
this tells me hapa is the designated scumteam scapegoat, and that tells me that creature is the one to take out of the two due to the scumteam thinking hes a stronger player for them -- IF my scumreads are both correct.

however, its important to note, i dont think its incredibly super important of the order. id like creature d1 but if he coasts i dont think town suffers much now that ive pointed at why it would be risky, and hapas the easy lynch with scum quite possibly helping push it. my preference for the creature wagon isnt strong, it just exists

[cassielle]

One of the hardest things to understand is sometimes, if not usually, Town will appear logically a lot worse than scum will. Considering all the above and that nugget of info, you really gotta start thinking about things beyond just black and white logic. I hope that helps.

this is the most important thing there is to learn about mafia

town is ALWAYS scummy

[cassielle]

now getting on someones case for bad reasons isnt a bad thing if you know how to do it (i like to think i do)

you just have to make allowances for the fact that you will be SO WRONG more often than not, and get really good at reading peoples tone and actions when you put them through intensive interrogation so that you dont end up tunneling yourself into a corner
also, when to stop pushing is pretty important but i think its secondary to the rest

[cassielle]

why do you think that hapa is more likely to contribute or self-incriminate?

creature is amazing at scumhunting d2 onward as town -- id sheep town!Creature d2 unquestioningly in fact, and i just dont do that
so why do you think hapa is the better choice here?

i know why /i/ do and that is irrelevant, i want to know why you do

[cassielle]

you got me convinced
im willing to give you another shot, good to see town!Creature around again

why hawk? why moogin?

[cassielle]

that feels thin, esp if the gamestate was boring enough to give you the scum!Creature look

why couldnt it just be bored & uncertain!Hawk?

and i think we should stick to activity being NAI for this dayphase, you pinged me with the posts you did make not the ones you didnt

[cassielle]

well lets be sure about that first yeah? an early end to the day and all -- remember newbie 1769? we should be careful there

what about rels, why is that a townread? i dont get it personally, that slot feels exceedingly, artificially dull to me, which i find to be a sign of scum
scum (and doctors, but thats not a concern in this setup) want you to not read their posts
town wants you to clap them on the back and say how brilliant they are

[cassielle]

Oh right, the doubting.

Back to disinteress.

if i doubt your reads its because i havent heard what you have to say about them
or ive sorted them after hearing what you had to say and found it wanting

my doubt is "explain to me why i should believe" not "this is why you are wrong". i give my reasons for my reads to see if you can find a flaw in the reasoning

i know youre a good scumhunter -- my issue is your d1 play, and im trying to help direct it a bit so we get more out of it. this is not the same as casting doubt on you in general

if that is enough to make you disinterested idk man

[cassielle]

Hmm, I don't know how to explain Rels.

in my experience that tends to be a sign you missed an important AI post

probably something short, earlier in the game, easily lost among quote-walls and rvs crap

could swing either way but would probably be worth rereading the first four posts in rels's ISO

[cassielle]

You're showing shockingly little interest in conversing with your top scumread, Cassielle.

instead of throwing shade you should be producing content

instead of throwing shade at /me/ you should be trying to start a counterwagon

gl with that though, youre almost certainly being bussed, i dont think well see a counterwagon from your corner gaining any traction

[cassielle]

gl with that
theres always a reason to bus.

t o w n c r e d

that is in fact the only reason to ever bus and my scumread of Creature (now on a townread) was independent of yours
so "bussing" fits -- it doesnt tell me who to scumread, it tells me which scumread should take precedence, and if that is a bad way to use a pre-flip associative then we all better pack it up town, scum won, theres no way to tell which scum of the three is the best one and we have been defeated

my reason to scumread you was given: subject-dodging and talking around people instead of to them -- which is whats going on here, ill note. now we can add to that a lot of shadethrowing and blatant misrepresentation (refusal to read between the lines for the bussing stuff, refusal to engage subject at hand (looking into Creature's alignment and reads, which is only helpful to town regardless of your read of the slot), talking around what i said to paint it in your favor -- interesting how old reasons also become new reasons, isnt it? -- more focused on defending your own slot than finding scum, OMGUS with the prior as fuel and no actual scummy behavior to go on top)

ill lynch you in good time friend, settle down now

[cassielle]

why do you think that hapa is more likely to contribute or self-incriminate?

creature is amazing at scumhunting d2 onward as town -- id sheep town!Creature d2 unquestioningly in fact, and i just dont do that
so why do you think hapa is the better choice here?

i know why /i/ do and that is irrelevant, i want to know why you do

I thought you said you'd rather lynch Creature first.

i would have (at the time of that statement)

i ask questions to determine the alignments of multiple slots though, and at that time that question was trying to sort fitz, who i believe to be town now

[cassielle]

oh -- wait, i see

you misunderstood, ha

both myself and fitz were talking about hapa being a better choice to /leave alone for d1/

[cassielle]

im liking hawk for town tbh

good slot

good rant

if you need someone to bounce things off of, im active when im not sleeping at strange hours or lodged in a Thomas Ligotti novel and i think you and i could curb each others worst tendencies here

honestly tho i want to let the coasters coast a bit because activity, like you said, NAI -- and active scum will destroy town's ability to coordinate in a lurk-heavy game like this one. its more important to find the noise in the active posters and take them out first so its easier for town to coordinate lynches later

[cassielle]

and honestly, the thing with creature is that i trust his d2+ townplay and i could end up being an amplifier for bad signal from his slot if he is scum and we let him coast

[cassielle]

Oh lol when someone acts like emotions can be easily faked by anyone.

paranoia is town tho

[cassielle]

Though thinking anything can be easily faked is sad. Glad I don't think that.

maybe not easily but i do think anything can in fact be faked

i have an edge there for emotion for example, i have an mfa in lit -- if i want someone to believe i feel a certain way i can nail that. is it /easy/? no -- but its /possible/ and if its /possible/ then for someone out there it /is/ easy.

so i see where the paranoia there comes from

i think hes just not yet aware of how /strong/ your meta is. i mean, i wasnt either and you remember d3 of newbie 1769? the scum lead me on a merry ride because i was already overly suspicious of everyone talking about your meta. its easy to get taken in by scum who are clever and good at what they do, easy to be taken advantage of, and he just doesnt know yet how you fit into the game

you being more active and focused ought to help though

[cassielle]

i didnt like you talking mechanics the way you did but it felt like town flubbing it instead of scum gambiting and your slot's recovered well imo

This is one thing I don't get. Why does everybody think discussing theory is scummy? What possible good could scum gain from trying to break the game for town? Experienced townies are going to point out anything that wouldn't work, as evidenced by what came soon after my theory posts.

the issue isnt trying to break the game for town, the issue is picking a suboptimal strategy. if scum does it itll be one less obvious than that i think but that makes it more dangerous
and the issue isnt discussing theory/strategy either -- its talking about night actions. thats the scum playing field to begin with, and town talking about night actions like "arming your 1-shot pgo" is giving info to the enemy. best that everyone uses their own personal heuristics -- tho if everyone arms n1 ill be extremely disappointed

This is your daily reminder that no one actually has reasons to call me mafia.

I find it hard to remember what you have posted. You've spent a lot of time arguing over whether people should be scumreading you even when there aren't that many. You look to me as if you could easily be scum trying to avoid doing any real scumhunting work. I'll check you over later to see whether my impression looks right to me.

appearance-focused gameplay with no real scumhunting to speak of seems to be order of the day over there yeah. why i have no problem letting him coast, he'll practically put the noose on himself

Oh right, the doubting.

Back to disinteress.

Seriously? If you have a problem with people doubting your reads, why are you playing Mafia? I know Creature made some townie-looking posts just previous, but this just looks like a poor excuse to do less work. Creature is scummy.

it is my understanding that this doubting comment is personal between me and creature (cant talk about it though)

[cassielle]

If everybody didn't take anything towny serious because "anything could be faked", would mafia be fun?

no of course not

check the flip side tho -- town is always scummy -- so if you policy lynch every thing that "only scum does" youll lose every game you play

the key is calculated risk

[cassielle]

Okay I guess that's fine. I don't really like it but I guess that's fine. The only thing I like about creatures d1 play so far is the fact that he keeps laying out townreads makes him really easy to ISO so I think if we flip scum at some point and creatures alive it'll be easy confirm him one way or the other based off that.

ALSO I LEFT OFF DOOM! MY GUT SAYS SCUM, but idk why... Also I haven't had much sleep so forgive me if my posts are shit today guys. New baby and all. lol

Pedit: I guess easily is a strong word to use there. It may take more effort based off the person. I'm just saying it's easier in forum Mafia than IRL (were I play more) because you can take a step back from replying right away if you have too.

Ppedit: Damnit Doom. Ignoring my gut a bit here cause it's probably just hungry.

Creature looks scummy to me too but like I said I don't want to push him just because of activity and his reasons being easy to fake.

Theory talk can be scummy because a lot of Theory talk in games where there is good Balance D1 is WIFOM. It's why in Game Theory you have games with 0-sum.

PPPEdit: I will reread later. Tired. Have to Work. Be on later guys and gals.

more i think about this more i like hawk for town
its excusing the bad posts but its also feeling self-deprecating about messing them up in the first place

the talk about creature locking himself into associatives as scum is good stuff
doomfeathers DOES feel like scum at a gutread level but its a lot of tiny crap -- the theory talk, bad (but NOT nonexistent, NAI or false) reasoning on reads, etc. stuff thats more likely to be townie lynchbait than scum (though doomfeathers has also done a really good job of humanizing his slot and putting his thought processes on the table, which helps him avoid being easy lynchbait too -- it just feels town when you give it a good deep look tbh)

still scumreading hawk, creature?

[cassielle]

Let it hereby be known that I would vote hapahauli at this point if I didn't want to keep the day going for a while yet.

^townie^

yeah i am aware of the daytalk thing, which is why i was talking bussing. hapa is the chosen sacrifice so we want to find who the people benefitting from it are.

reason i cant talk about the doubting thing is [redacted]. if i am able to talk about it in the post-game ill gladly clear it up for you. suffice to say: site rules, not me trying to hide info

[cassielle]

Let it hereby be known that I would vote hapahauli at this point if I didn't want to keep the day going for a while yet.

^townie^

That's an easy town cred comment scum could make. I don't think Doom is scum but I hope there's more to him than that for your read.

loooots more

and yeah its an easy /statement/ to make, but its something i can call him on. he bolded it, so its easy to find and memorable in his ISO -- and long days are bad for scum as a general rule. he cant decide to lolhammer an opportune wagon at an early point in a dayphase now without getting massive scumreads all over the place.

now, yes, he could still end up being scum. but that particular statement, at that time and in that way, combined with my existing townread -- its strongly indicative. and if he /is/ scum, hes closed one important door on himself

followup statements from other slots along the same lines are not so. in fact, someone taking the opportunity to "prove a point" or "emphatically agree" now would be acting scummy, imo

[cassielle]

jfc

ok, when i say a "tone thing" -- im not saying "gutread", im saying "the logic hes using and the things hes doing are fine on their own, but they dont add up with what im seeing"
e.g. i cant point out logical flaws, people who are robots only convinced by logical flaws will be disappointed (and those people exist, i assure you all)

and hes definitely a player focused on appearances -- tho the case vs kidamn is C O N V I N C I N G -- and scum care more about how they look than town, always
(town is almost always going to ML, so they dont mind being the sacrificial lamb if they think it will get everyone to refocus their efforts elsewhere. scum cant afford to be a lynch target unless theyre being bussed and even then its bad)
in this case -- scum want to derail wagons that start on them, not start counterwagons, which is what hapa is doing

(again tho, kidamn is good. also a lurker tho, so im feeling like hes lynchbait and even if he is scum, i want to focus on active players who are causing bad signal first)

effectively, the only town-read i can have on hapa atm would rely on him being a noob. hes not -- joindate 2013.
or really really badtown, which doesnt seem to be the case due to slots that know him talking about him being a good player
or...

ok. im not feeling like nows quite the time to build a detailed wallpost case on him quite yet, i have other things i want to look at first
im spotting things that make me very interested in a great many people
and i think im seeing a third town narrative for hapa that i want to explore

one things for sure, the game activity-spiked like a mofo since ive joined and shaken things up
and that means i am sorting people easily now -- everyone to post in the last two pages except one slot in particular, i have a read on now

[cassielle]

@HAPA

what if i tell you you have been pocketed and one or two of your townreads are scum

who do you pick

[cassielle]

in fact, i think most players here have been taken in by scum if the slots i suspect to be potential scum are in fact just that

everyone, tell me who is the scum laughing to the endgame in /your/ townblock
tell me /why/

[cassielle]

Keep town solid, scum likes town in gas state. Liquid state is also acceptable for them.

im not doing what you think im doing

also im certain youre town!creature now

[cassielle]

naw, youre a slave to your own nature man

do me a favor and answer my question back there for giggleshits

and pay attention to the answers that come down the pipe, youll know what youre looking for when you see it

[cassielle]

just the one about scum you might be pocketed by and why

dont think too hard about them actually being scum afterwards, i have ulterior motives i will share when i have a large enough dataset here

[cassielle]

Who's scum pocketing me?

thats the answer i want

your answer, not mine

im not trying to convince you of anything, i just want you to give me information to work with

[cassielle]

ill accept that for now creature, but i still want more people to talk about it from their pov

also if you townread me, i townread you atm so that "could" be pocketing
i dont think it is, at all, obviously, but yes, it could be

the real test is "why am i townreading this person? is there a reason for this townread?"

if, when it boils down to it, it feels like theyre following a checklist of things you said townpinged you in the thread as you say them, you are probably being pocketed (and it is unlikely to be town)

scum are rarely that obvious, but they flub it every so often

[cassielle]

i like this votecount. this is a MUCH BETTER state of affairs for town

look: we have 1 (1!!!!!) vanity wagon
when i joined there were /6/

we can afford to poke at townblocks a little bit creature. town is listening to one another
people are even willing to work with their scumreads a bit: this is a Good Thing and keeping the town watchful is also a Good Thing.

also the number of wagons and wagon makeup tells me that no scum are on kop's wagon. anyone have any theories as to why that is?
keep it coming with the talk about whos pocketing you. dont need to start scumreading them or w/e, in fact id rather you didnt, i just want to see who each of you pick and why

[cassielle]

Eh. Reading through Cassy's filter, it seems like I was just tilted and misrepping her really hard. I'm going to mulligan on that read and try again tomorrow.

@HAPA

what if i tell you you have been pocketed and one or two of your townreads are scum

who do you pick

If you're asking which of my town-reads have the greatest margin for error, probably Creature/Fitz/Kop. But you're asking me to discredit my own analysis of the game which doesn't really accomplish much for me or anyone else.

im not asking that

im looking for something, see my prior post

[cassielle]

also the number of wagons and wagon makeup tells me that no scum are on kop's wagon. anyone have any theories as to why that is?

I'd say because Kop is scum, but you're not scumreading him, so that's not going to be your answer. Are they pocketing him?

no. i honestly dont have a clue why it would be the case and it doesnt sit right -- the scum would want to be on the top two wagons, but i dont see scum being in (doomfeathers,Aubrey,Hawk)

i do see scum being in (rels,hapa) and i am absolutely 100% certain theres scum in hapa's wagon

so something is strange. i would be willing to push kops wagon if hapa makes a good (really good) showing in the near future. the "tipping point" will certainly be instructive

[cassielle]

i dont like this naked vote
or that you failed to answer an Important Question i want as many slots as possible to answer, but lets call that NAI

Kop: who are the most likely 1 or 2 scum lurking in YOUR townreads?

[cassielle]

naked votes are never pro-town
theyre usually FROM town (which means scum can use towns poor behavior as a smokescreen there) but theyre bad town play (for that precise reason)

hawk: who is the scum lurking in your townreads?
not about who you distrust but who you cant understand why you trust them ftr

im not asking you to scumread them either, im trying to paint a picture in my head

[cassielle]

thinking. im gonna townread kop for now, i have Reasons to believe hes town. not gonna go into them, scum can abuse the talk to make us start ML-tunneling a bunch of people before we realize whats happening
suffice to say: this isnt ironclad. this is subject to change. but i dont think hes where focus should be atm, and i think eyes should turn in other directions. 3 scum, we can come back to him later on if necessary

i want to have fitz give a wallpost if he is so inclined
and i want to hear from kidamn, and OOO too. big and content heavy, short on quotes if you please
and i think i want to hear more from hawk and aubrey because theyve said a lot but i like what they have to say and i want opinions from them

and im going to put this out there rn: afaiac hapa is todays lynch until and /unless/ we find someone better. when the deadline draws near we jump ship onto hapa and kill the slot unless someone better comes to hand
why?
1: town not using their lynch is dangerously close to gamethrowing, no-lynch is a special case scenario that has little to no utility d1, and no utility at all d1 with this setup
2: agreeing on a deadline lynch AT THE DEADLINE is almost always a mislynch (people panic with the deadline looming and dont want to rock the boat and go into night without a lynch, scum take advantage)
3: hapa is widely scumread with a lot of support for his wagon
4: we can still end up finding a better target
5: i think that hapa flipping green would still be highly indicative of the actual scumteam in the unlikely situation that it does occur
(in the event it does happen,

THIS POST IS THE CUT OFF

, nothing later than this will be useful for finding the scum leading that wagon, daytalk is the worst.)
6: most importantly, i dont think anyone else's wagon will get large amounts of sufficiently logical support short of someone losing their damn mind before EOD, which will prob be a mislynch if it happens

[cassielle]

imo hapa should be the /agreed upon/ lynch at EOD for now because his wagon already has support and hes widely scumread

d1 is the most dangerous time to let yourself get swayed last minute onto another wagon, so i prefer to agree on a lynch before deadline and punch the wagon home last minute so theres not a huge risk of ml bait pushed by scum making the town lose focus
d2+ needs no such foolishness fortunately, you get new tools like associatives that diminish the necessity at that point

ftr im /preeeetty/ sure that kop is town. id rather let that slot go for today
my backup wagon would be kidamn atm, mooginsoosy is also in my scumreads but theres too little content for me to feel confident, and hawk is Useful

[cassielle]

hi BV

yeah i would /love/ to lynch kidamn, esp because i tried to engage with him and got totally 100% ignored
but that apathy is townish to me.

lets watch BV for now, i think their play will be highly instructive

[cassielle]

I'm not necessarily scumreading him. It's a pressure vote, but one I'm willing to stand behind.

ahhh
thats fair then
you should always follow up a pressure vote with directed questions though

[cassielle]

thought about it a bit
VOTE: KidAmn

hapa is an easily agreed upon EOD lynch, so i dont feel nervous about putting pressure in other places. well either have towns focus move to another easily-agreed upon slot or we will not. either way, it wont be hard to get a lynch today

kidamn has gone from extremely invested to completely uninvested very quickly with no "warning signs" popping up. this feels like scum trying to redirect, to me. it doesnt feel like townie apathy, as i look into it (esp in context) -- theres missing signs, the whole "back off" thing isnt visible in posts prior. theres townie reasoning, but with daytalk, thats less meaningful because you can always go "hey does this look like obvtown?" in the scum pt

kidamn has the /potential/ (if town) to be a pretty damned good pro-town force. i would rather not ML him but im not seeing the town reasoning. if he is town, as the wagon fills up he needs to get on top of this game and start being the pro-town player he can be. pressurevoting is an appropriate way to lean on the slot

kidamn's apathy appears (AFAICT) to stem from not being able to push a single scumread -- when there are 3 scum in the game -- without resistance from two other slots interfering
there are very rare cases where you can benefit from digging your heels in and going full lockdown on who you want to deal with -- this isnt one of those cases. due to the setup, any scumlynch is a good scumlynch here (they're all goons), and while you can have /preferences/ you should be willing and able to point at and push a diff scumread if your preferred wagon stalls.
but kidamn is letting two players destroy his case instead of trying to push outside of their circle (and thereby speak to a large group of people who do agree with him)

this says to me that kidamn wants to ml a pro-town player early while the paranoia is rampant and before town can swing associatives, VCA and NKA into play
or that kidamn wants to bus a scum player early and fast for towncred and is feeling nervous/frustrated that townies are derailing that wagon
...or that kidamn is town who doesnt realize how anti-town hes acting -- so heres a wakeup call: dont hit the snooze button, get the hell up

in general i think that kidamn has more of a chance to save himself from the d1 lynch than hapa, due to reading like frustrated town in large part -- pressure and reiterating that i think kidamn can pull himself out of this hole hammers in the idea that he needs to bring his town game to the table ASAP. this is ultimately pro-town because hes an active player who can infodump with the best of them, and i dont think he can smoothly recover from the obvious scumplay if he is actually scum
but if he doesnt step up to the plate, we can only assume that, at best, hes town actively working against his wincon, and at worst, hes scum who took the demotivated townie charade too far

[cassielle]

L-2 on kidamn

i dont want to go to L-1 at least until he posts, keep the votes off for now folks

though i encourage you to say something if you /want/ to vote

[cassielle]

just realized i said something ambiguously hypocritical in that wallpost, should have been more detailed. fixes in bold

kidamn has gone from extremely invested to completely uninvested very quickly with no "warning signs" popping up. this feels like scum trying to redirect, to me. it doesnt feel like townie apathy, as i look into it (esp in context) -- theres missing signs, the whole "back off" thing isnt visible in posts prior. theres townie reasoning

wrt his scumreads and people's play

, but with daytalk, thats less meaningful because you can always go "hey does this look like obvtown?" in the scum pt

kidamn has the /potential/ (if town) to be a pretty damned good pro-town force. i would rather not ML him but im not seeing the town reasoning

for his coasty apathetic play

. if he is town, as the wagon fills up he needs to get on top of this game and start being the pro-town player he can be. pressurevoting is an appropriate way to lean on the slot

[cassielle]

i look forward to your questions ooo

and dont think i forgot about you BV, im waiting on you as well

[cassielle]

BV when you get a bit further i want a spur-of-the-moment readslist
dont need to be up to date, just make a note of the page youre on and cover every slot. nullreads acceptable and this isnt going to be used to beat you with if you change your mind later -- i make no promises if i feel strongly your readslist is bad-faith tho

im thinking about what creature said about the kidamn wagon composition and im getting the same vibe, gonna jump off
UNVOTE:
i WILL jump back on wagon if the opportunity presents itself, but i think creature spotted something important and im watching for signs of it
this isnt resistance, some one can feel free to jump on, just dont go past L-2 at least until kidamn posts

[cassielle]

yeah kidamn is town, the anger from that direction is real and the towntells are hard to fake and esp hard to fake all at once like that

that wagon needs to dissipate real quick imo

im liking hapa+bv, im not feeling hawk as scumteam or kop as scumteam. both pinging me as town

i have a feeling i know who no.3 is but i want to sit on it for now

[cassielle]

like creature, you should reread starting after i joined the game and watch for wagonwaffling wrt hapa

theres a source for that resistance you noted and i think you should be able to spot it if you do that

[cassielle]

@BV: im scumreading you and hapa
i mean kidamn is screaming town with megaphones and marching bands and 20 gun salutes in that last post of his, but i guess you would push that wagon if my read is right? so w/e. also your predecessor didnt give me good vibes
and ive made my hapa case and it hasnt gotten any less good (he flails under pressure despite his wagon having brakes-locked-down grinding-metal sparks-flying resistance, he talks around peoples posts, his cases are thin, his gameplay is extremely appearance-conscious which is a /STRONG/ scum trait)

@creature: i think youre townreading scum no.3
thats why im pointing it out to you

[cassielle]

nah i mean i think hawk is town and kop is town

i have a strong reason to believe a diff slot is lurking scum getting unwarranted townreads and their scumtell of the day is wagonwaffling

[cassielle]

Holy fuck this is a lot to process.

1: what is?
2: anything i could do to make it easier to swallow?

[cassielle]

looks good creature

theres obviously town in there but i see all the scum also

[cassielle]

@Creature - how is outoforder in your scumpool?

this is a bad question

i dont think this question should be engaged with

obvious answer is all you need: there are going to be town slots in a 6 player scumpool in a game with 3 scum

[cassielle]

yes now lets look swiftly away from this because this line of questioning is pinging me as 5-alarm Bad

[cassielle]

^ yes

[cassielle]

creature, BV giving me weird pings here

not town, not scum, but game-related

you see it too?

[cassielle]

refactoring reads

also probably passing out early, feel like hell today

aubrey, opinions on BV ASAP please

[cassielle]

i play a subtle town game, i withhold bits and pieces of the puzzle to see if the slots i suspect can fill in the blanks

the creature-bussing thing is fun to explain, a great example of my subtle townplay. basically, i know town!creature and scum!creature have a lot of overlap, but when i joined i scumread him. i scumread two slots, i read their mixed ISO, i get scum bussing vibes -- that's all legit and above-board. but also i had an ulterior motive: i wanted to nettle a disinterested town!creature into contributing and obvtowning it up for me, if he was indeed town. the results speak for themselves

the kidamn vote was to try and force him to provide content, but he ended up feeling strongly like depressed town and creature rightfully noticed the wagon makeup was FUNKY so i hopped off and (when he responded) let the subject go

if you have specific questions ill be happy to answer them (so long as im not using the withheld info still)

interestingly i think you are town now, these are well thought out and agree with my interpretation of the game thus far without outright copying anything in particular -- its a reasoned and considered but unique take on the game, basically the definition of town. i do think that scum is in your townblock as well, but im no longer certain where it would be. 2/3 aint bad and im not sure of no.3 anymore, we have at least two full days to go looking, im content with this

gonna finally put this out there: im pretty sure rels is scum if hapa is scum. watch their interactions -- rels does what appears to be a strong push on hapa but softballs all the questions and waffles back to townread in an eyeblink. theres not many other scumtells there, but that interaction is highly suspicious

[cassielle]

btw the rels scumread i got is one reason i townread kop. think kop is just badtown

[cassielle]

4th - I don't give a damn about living any further right now here. If I do end up being the lynch, at least it gets this interminable first day over and gives people something solid to look at when I flip town. So if you're gonna do it, get it the fuck over with already.

If you're town, your needless death isn't going to help at all. If you know you're town, you should at least be trying to lynch scum. I'd suggest you replace out, but it's a little far into the game for that to be a good option. So could you maybe just finish this game you started rather than quitting?

@Cass - I've posted reads that jumped out to me as I read but full readslist will happen after I finish reading the entire thread and ISO everyone.

Won't that take a long time?

Looking through Hawk's games, I noticed that in Open 669, he voted Doom for quickly changing his vote and they were both town there. So, he should know that Doom does this as town and it's at worst null. I don't like that he uses the same reason to vote Doom yet again.

Or do you just have lots of time on your hands?

BV caught up

check above your post a bit

[cassielle]

UNVOTE:

I need to reread and reevaluate. I like BV's effort. Solid town vibes from that read list also Hella a whole lot better than Moogin was. Hapa scumread feels more genuinely thought out then the Meta stuff OoO and Rels were feeding early game.

been thinking on this

did it feel like softballing to you too? like "im scumreading you but heres some fluffy doubt and light questioning that you can knock out easily then im gonna townread you despite you not having properly earned it"?

mostly from rels, not so much from OOO

[cassielle]

i was in Newbie 1769 with creature and have another game with him

im not super synchronized with him imo but i know how to read him and his obvtowning mode is extremely easy to work with -- you point at something, he spots it, bounces something back, etc. its like pingpong

[cassielle]

So cassielle:

Let me try to understand this:
You scumread Creature and you are scumreading hapa. A part of your case on Creature is based on him bussing hapa. How do you define this? I mean like what difference there is in this situation that this looks like him bussing instead of him being mafia trying to lynch a townie, or him being town thinking hapa is mafia? Another thing i am pretty puzzled with is that you are right now voting for KidAm partly because he is trying to ML a pro-town player. Just that this "pro-town" player you are talking about is one of your scumreads?

You can't have it both ways so how does any of this make any sense?

no

like everything youve said is wrong except me scumreading hapa
some of it was correct at some point but.... man, youve read precisely two posts ive made if you seriously believe this

pay attention to the game

[cassielle]

basically im scumreading the TL trio atm

feels too convenient, sure, but rels is softballing hapa and ooo's pushes are schizophrenic and, now, completely divorced from reality
idk, seems likely to be scum to me

be nice if the scum could obvscum for a post or two after this just to confirm

[cassielle]

learn something new everyday, huh?

[cassielle]

To be fair, I understand your point on Hapa. But I think we gain more information from the Rels lynch.

I think Doom could be the outsider in all of this, but I don't think he will be put forward as a candidate today.

^ kop is town
almost 100% now

yeah i can back a rels wagon here
VOTE: Rels

only concern: hapa lynch is easier to ensure we nail today. we get less info but we have an easier time actually sticking the lynch
im normally all about "stretch the time out", but this is REALLY close to deadline, and im concerned by possible stalling tactics

if rels wagon meets resistance we should powerlynch hapa so we dont end day on a no-lynch

stalling tactics to be aware of:
if players say they refuse to vote rels this dayphase, theyre stalling
if players say that someone outside of rels/hapa has a better chance of hitting scum, theyre stalling
if players push hapa while saying they scumread rels, theyre stalling
if players push rels but don't vote, theyre stalling

there are others but i dont know them off hand

[cassielle]

i want a rels lynch yeah

ftr i think a hapa-town world is extremely unlikely as well, and theres no way that hapa/rels is TvT or TvS (could be SvT though, i agree)

what a rels flip tells us about is /other/ slots -- e.g. picks out scum no.3

rels lynch permits us to gamesolve. hapa lynch hits scum 100% of the time. so i prefer the rels lynch for now: we can afford a ML or two in the early game, and the faster we get gamesolve info the easier it is for town to win. hapa will not cease to be a good lynch d2

[cassielle]

lip service my ass

i said if the wagon meets resistance we should hop back onto hapa, how the hell is that lip service
i said hapa is more likely to be todays lynch because the wagon has momentum and with the deadline approaching i am uncertain if the rels wagon will get momentum, how the hell is that lip service
i brought this up to see if people pushing rels wanted to risk a nolynch to push a diff slot (which lets me get reads on them), how the hell is that lipservice

i genuinely thought creature was a better lynch at first PLUS i wanted town!creature to contribute
i mostly just wanted kidamn to contribute (i.e. that was a pressure vote, not a lynchvote, and im pretty sure i said as much already... so thats misrepresentative af)
and i think rels gives us better info d2

so you tell me now how ive been using any and every opportunity to lynch someone else
considering one of those wasnt even aiming for a lynch (hell i stalled the wagon at L-2)

@kidamn: the stalling tactics i mentioned arent town stalling tactics. for example blackvoid is "stalling" technically rn but its not scumstalling so i dont care that its happening
if someone uses the tactics i outlined... well those are scummy to begin with and stalling a wagon with those tactics this close to deadline would be a scumclaim imo

[cassielle]

All the while, she's been calling Hap 100% scum. How does anyone not see the ridiculousness of her position?

Yeah, she's active and she's contributing. But her reads make literally no sense. I'm going to read through her past games this evening but I doubt I would find a game where she calls someone 100% scum and then

tries to browbeat people

into voting somebody else.

more misrep btw

only concern: hapa lynch is easier to ensure we nail today. we get less info but we have an easier time actually sticking the lynch
im normally all about "stretch the time out", but this is REALLY close to deadline, and im concerned by possible stalling tactics

if rels wagon meets resistance we should powerlynch hapa so we dont end day on a no-lynch

in other words, blackvoid literally made shit up there

[cassielle]

None of what you said makes any sense. If Hap is 100% scum, why are you voting elsewhere? The "lip service" that I'm referring to is that you're too confident Hap is scum but your votes don't show that. If any wagon picks up steam, you are there on it.

KidAmn, Fitz, and Outoforder, let's get back on the wagon and lynch Hap.

yes i was definitely 100% on the kop wagon
also i was /definitely/ pushing kidamn to the lynch despite what even he noticed as an unusual confidence in him being able to pull himself out of the hole, and saying outright that no one else should vote when he hit L-2
im "too confident" of hapa being scum but no one is doubting that slot is scum except rels and maybe outoforder -- yep, definitely too confident, no way in hell i could be so confident whatsoever

i even said (and have pointed out i said, multiple times) that i had doubts the rels wagon would get steam, but you continue to act like i was saying "NO ONE VOTE HAPA RELS IS TODAYS LYNCH", even using terms like "browbeat" and other such nonsense

like if anyone had just said "yeah i dont think rels is a good idea lets get hapa" instead of casting shade my way, id have already hopped on hapas wagon.

but your shadethrowing is noted. the massive amount of shade you magically summoned to toss at me, up to misrep and blatant lies -- that is why my vote remains on the rels wagon. you acted shifty the moment i made the push -- one of the reasons i even made it in the first place was to catch scum no.3. you are going to be my Special Friend come d2, oh yes indeedy

[cassielle]

i missed that rels was v/la
but basically the case boils down to this: repeatedly, rels puts a lot of pressure on hapa, always followed by softball questions (e.g. with very easy answers), always followed by a townread. i explained this
i also was watching for reactions and seeing how fast the wagon grew, among other things. i play a subtle town game, a lot of what i do is not strictly clear, sometimes im even actively misleading (though i always make a point of explaining myself later on).

creature can convince me of his alignment very easily. this could mean hes mislead me, except that he has very little control over his meta, so it doesnt take a whole hell of a lot for me to hard read his slot.
i trust his judgement and im confident of my read on him, so i work with him, i dont see whats wrong with that

creature is town af tbh so your reads are wrong even if you dont believe my alignment to be town (which it is)
ooo is way less likely to be scum than rels, even if i think the slot made about the scummiest move possible there

i note a lot of what you consider to be me "teaching" is answering questions other players have posed, it feels like you skimmed heavily in an effort to misrep me. i find that interesting
also i find it interesting you didnt make a single peep about BV blatantly and undeniably misrepping me, with such absurdities as "tries to browbeat people into voting somebody else" when i actively stated low confidence in sticking the lynch, etc

[cassielle]

i just got my post all fucked up
so

basics:
my issue with BV is the misrep. ONLY the misrep.
i have talked about my reasons for voting rels /multiple times/.
i have reminded people /multiple times/ that i /publicly stated/ little confidence in the rels wagon getting off the ground.
i remained on that wagon /due to/ BV's misrep.
i did this because i wanted to see if it continued
BV stopped responding to me at all after i called him out on misrep, which indicates to me that BV is embarassed!town
because BV stopped blatantly misrepping me, im ok with doing this:

VOTE: hapahauli

i do however think it's very important to explain that these things are the case despite having said most of them over and over
because it seems to me like people may quite possibly have a distorted view of my actions and intentions in this thread, probably due -- in no small part -- to the misrep in question
so ill lay it out for you simply: ISO me. pretty much every motive and statement BV made about me there was outright fabrication, and i stated what i had to say over and over and over.
you shouldn't have trouble finding it.

[cassielle]

Your read on Cass interests me the most. What "impenetrable suit of armor" are you talking about and why do you "want to townread" her? Her stance on Hap being 100% scum and voting Rels is really bad as you agreed and her latest post reads extremely fake. That's one slot I'd flashlynch today if it became viable.

my latest post is literally exactly what ive been saying ever since you started with the damned misrep

anyone can check this against my ISO and come up with exactly what ive said about it just in that last line -- so more blatant misrep from you! im starting to rethink that townread

go for it tho pal, if you think you can get my slot lynched today then have at it, but i dont think you want to be held accountable for me getting mislynched in that sort of way
so i think youll continue to throw shade at me and try to swing the lynch d2 from start of day then once someone else pushes youll stand back a bit, express hesitance, and generally try to weasel out of responsibility when i flip green

good news: that wont work
bad news: youre either tunnelled to the point you cant see your own blatant lies, or youre scum

[cassielle]

@Hap, in case you show up tomorrow, please post your reads on Rels, Outoforder, Cass, and Aubrey.

@Cass, my point is that you saying Hap is 100% town and voting elsewhere makes zero sense to me

no matter how you dress it up.

in other words you wont change your read no matter what i say?

cool. bv/hapa/rels is the team, p sure now

idc what the hell yall do now, im going to drop my activity level significantly because i have nothing to say that will make a damn bit of difference at this stage
bv still hasnt admitted that saying i was "browbeating" people onto the rels wagon is a blatant damned lie, has repeatedly misrepped me, and now is admitting nothing i could say would make a difference, so have fun with that

[cassielle]

i want a rels lynch yeah

ftr i think a hapa-town world is extremely unlikely as well, and theres no way that hapa/rels is TvT or TvS (could be SvT though, i agree)

what a rels flip tells us about is /other/ slots -- e.g. picks out scum no.3

rels lynch permits us to gamesolve. hapa lynch hits scum 100% of the time. so i prefer the rels lynch for now: we can afford a ML or two in the early game, and the faster we get gamesolve info the easier it is for town to win. hapa will not cease to be a good lynch d2

This is the post that is causing such uproar on Cass, and where BlackVoid and I are basically coming from in being like . Cass, I could read the lord of the rings books quicker than your iso. I don't fully understand this mis-rep that you are going on and on about, nor do I have a lot of free time today. Please In a short sweet 2-3 lines explain it to me, because I see where BlackVoid is coming from at a general standpoint.

In a 2-3 liner, explain to me how the Rels case doesnt need an associative flip to scumread him.

Post 924 basically illustrates where I'm coming from overall. Lastly what are your thoughts on my 935 post since you are so sure on a Hapa lynch being a scum success.

lastly if you are town, why would scum remotely try and attack you as hard as BV is doing? That is straight up risky when they can just kill you off. You're not exactly the easiest target to go after here.

compare my posts about a rels lynch where i explicitly say if the wagon meets resistance we should move back to hapa without question
then check out bv saying i was browbeating players into getting on the rels wagon
thats some pretty hefty misrep there and he /still/ hasnt admitted its garbage

then he calls me trying to obvtown and give a detailed, easy to parse explanation "fake" and i cant even be bothered anymore
and if you didnt see that explanation or you dont buy it or its not good enough, i cant help you. i dont have the energy to put up with the chainsaw from bv and now ooo and ive lost motivation to play this game due to it

i haven't replaced out primarily for the mods sake tbh
at this point just hoping yall pull together a damn ML wagon on me for today so you can lynch the scum come d2 and i dont need to pay attention to this game anymore

[cassielle]

@Cass, I don't see how the thought process of "vote Rels, if we hit resistance, switch back to Hap" makes any sense whatsoever. Meaning if there is no resistance, then the Rels wagon goes through and you'll have just called Hap 100% scum and lynched someone else.

What I call browbeating is this quote:

stalling tactics to be aware of:
if players say they refuse to vote rels this dayphase, theyre stalling
if players say that someone outside of rels/hapa has a better chance of hitting scum, theyre stalling
if players push hapa while saying they scumread rels, theyre stalling
if players push rels but don't vote, theyre stalling

You are basically saying if people do anything but vote Rels, they are stalling. I assume you are saying stalling is scummy because I don't see why else you'd mention it in that context.

So, basically "vote Rels or you are scum." That's browbeating trying to get a Rels wagon going through DESPITE the fact that you've called Hap 100% scum. Why shouldn't townies be voting this 100% scum as opposed to Rels?

those four stalling tactics are specifically scummy stalling tactics, as i even /ALREADY/ said to kidamn
1: worded this a little badly -- basically tho if someone says theyd rather no-lynch than wagon rels, thats scummy af on d1 (d2+ not so much)
2: this still lets town say hapa is scum. it discourages fragmenting towns vote from the two popular wagons as the deadline closes. there is nothing bad about calling this out as bad play
3: off-wagon pushing, part 1
4: off-wagon pushing, part 2

town can, for example, doubt my reasons! or they can just say that they prefer a hapa lynch out right? or they can say they arent confident the wagon can get momentum. did you even read the starting bit of the post where i said meeting resistance should be an instant jump back to hapa? in no way is this browbeating -- its calling out bad play for what it damn well is so scum cant fuck up towns votes entirely for the day, while still ensuring we wont fight an uphill battle on a second-place wagon

i said out right: wagon meets resistance, kill it. the stuff that came afterward was pointing out ways of resisting the wagon that are suspect and/or anti-town in nature. i didnt say "dont do these things" or even "if these things happen ignore them"

i said "if the wagon meets any resistance, lynch hapa" -- not a specific kind of resistance, not "unless i say so", no, just flat out -- resistance = move to hapa

in other words: calling that browbeating is blatant misrep, period, end of story

[cassielle]

js bv is draining all the enjoyment and fun out of this game which is why im feeling him for scum

town wants to keep people engaged because engaged players are contributing players and contributing players are easy to sort

scum wants to make everyone apathetic and wishing for death so they can gamesweep and their buds can hide among all the obvtowns who went lurkmode

js

also prodging

[cassielle]

ok, theres some exceptions to this rule, but about 80% of the time, a last-minute near-deadline lynch switch will land on town
it doesnt matter if the earlier wagon is also on a townie (it's not unlikely that it is, in fact)
fact is: its more likely to be on scum than the wagon people end up panicvoting for to avoid no-lynching

this is one of the reasons why i said early on: hapa is todays lynch barring exceptional circumstances. its why i said: if there is any resistance on rels, jump back to hapa (this one is actually really involved reasoning, if you want the full thought process, ask)

unless its a rels wagon we settle on i dont want to see town scrambling together last minute to push some slot half of them dont even damn well agree with lynching, and rels is only good because of the associatives we grab along the way (helping gamesolve) and my high-confidence scumread -- its STILL a bad idea

a d1 lynch has a VERY high chance of hitting a townie to begin with, we dont need to be increasing that chance further!

[cassielle]

like really idk why blackvoid isnt being scumread at this point

its like scumplay dressed up in townie activity and convoluted reasoning that, at a glance, passes for town

a kop "utility" lynch for example is almost assured to be a mislynch (as are the vast majority of policy/"utility" lynches), we get no associatives worth a damn due to the players low activity, and in general it does not help a town wincon
at best it doesnt outright /hurt/ a town wincon

but almost any other slot would be a better choice, period, and any slot not already widely agreed on is nearly as bad because
town is not going to have a full dayphase's back and forth on what that lynch means if it flips red or green, who is interacting with it in certain ways, etc -- all of that analysis has to be pulled from the ass on d2
town is not going to be largely of the same mind, but many will withhold their complaints on the basis of not ending d1 with a nolynch, meaning a lot of valid reasons not to hit the slot are not going to be heard
scum will be able to hide in the self-kicking conga line that results from this clusterfuck by simply saying early "you know i DID have my doubts i just didnt want a mislynch"

really i have to emphatically say "NO DO NOT DO THIS THING"

[cassielle]

EBWOP "you know i DID have my doubts i just didnt want a nolynch"

[cassielle]

ok, when i talk deadline wagons hitting town? i mean d1

on d1 you have no info, all cases are weak, theres no confirmed alignments, theres no associatives
your examples are both d2+

even if you did have a d1 example: i said 80%, not 100%. in other words, i never claimed it ALWAYS hits town
so this is misrepping -- again

[cassielle]

Oh ffs, I'm not "misrepresenting" you. Most D1 wagons hit town.

There's no reason to believe that a D1 deadline wagon will hit town any more than a regular D1 wagon.

so youre saying that no matter how much consideration is given to a slot over the course of a full dayphase, it's always effectively random? huh, makes me wonder why we dont always just wagon someone to the gallows in RVS or no-lynch
oh yeah because that would be absolutely worthless. EVERY TIME

also your argument in favor of a no-lynch on d1 is so anti-town im done tbh

lynch hapa this dayphase, and push bv hard when hapa flips red, i got nothing else to say here

[cassielle]

.....

yup

too bad he didnt try to swing the ml on me instead
one awful game i wouldnt need to worry about, and hed be p much obvscum come d2

but at this stage i cannot even be bothered with this game the way bv is driving it so w/e

im just gonna vote bv come d2 and prodge till eod unless im nk (note: this is not informative as to whether or not i will be arming)

p-edit: yeah thats where im sitting

[cassielle]

Posts like this are the reason I'm very hesitant to lynch anyone that's a voice of reason among the town. With you and KidAmn both being town posting like you have been, and outoforder barely even caught up, I'm at least hoping that once Hap has time to play, he picks up his game tomorrow.

Ten minutes of looking over my two scumgames and a sample of my towngames will tell you that this is blatantly my towngame. I don't think I've ever driven games as scum.

i do not put any stock in meta, esp not self-meta, with only VERY rare exceptions (like creature breaking his meta is extremely unlikely for example -- he has no real control of it and its very subtle statistical stuff anyhow)

if /you/ put stock in meta, feel free to check, my position on meta is clear in every game ive been in on site

this post is meaningless to me, equivalent to "but im town" <--- NAI, anyone can and would say that

[cassielle]

Aubrey's posting in the last page is so scummy anyone not seeing it needs their scumdar examined.

and yet hes posting near identically to how i have ever since you began your misbegotten mislynch crap push
remind me why you townread me again?

oh RIGHT: its basically pre-flip associative (my rels case isnt, though it can appear that way) + "oops missed that post that i actually made a big post about"
you assume aubrey is scum on the basis of how our slots interact (so -- pre-flip associative 1, see 1091) and then that im town on the basis of ... how our slots interact. (pre-flip associative 2, see 1101)

whos townreading this scumslot, show of hands here, come on now

his case on aubrey is a literal tautology -- circular reasoning all day long here

[cassielle]

Aubrey's entire play has revolved around setting people up. He critiques Hap's KidAmn case and accuses Hap of exploiting a newbie. Then says that if KidAmn and Fitz both are town, he'd be suspicious of Hap.

He claims that if Rels is scum and Hap is town, he'd be suspicious of me.

He claims that only one of Hap and Fitz are scum which subtly serves to separate them so that one of them flipping town isn't a detriment to continue lynching the other.

He's not actively trying to sort players or read them. He's hanging back setting people up.

The things that are scumreading me for and the things you are townreading him for are the very things you should reverse when you are scumhunting. I've been aggressively pushing players for answers. You keep screaming misrep because you disagree with my arguments. Did you notice how Aubrey pretty much agreed with me that your post on Hap/Rels was weird? But he didn't call you scum. He was rather careful not to do that and piss you off. He skirted around the edges, agreeing with me, stroking your ego a little (mighty Cass), tried to buddy me but never really attacked you or did anything to upset what was going on. That's what scumplay looks like.

im townreading him because in general when he talks it makes sense to me. im scumreading you because youre doing the opposite of good d1 play, trying to push town onto a last-minute compromise wagon (which is nigh guaranteed to be a ML) instead of stickingwith the program? i mean like even if hapas a ML theres so much TALK around it that not getting the flip means most of D1 is effectively garbage

plus theres the misrep and incoherence. lets talk about that incoherence a sec:
im suspicious of buddying, but what aubrey said about me (what you refer to as stroking my ego) didnt ping me that way. it pinged me as sarcasm, a light joke at my expense. btw, why arent you scumreading kidamn for doing the exact same thing when i pushed the rels wagon? that seems hypocritical or incoherent

and the misrep -- im not sure if youre so confbiased youre incapable of seeing it or if youre doing it on purpose but you were doing crazy mental gymnastics to contort pretty clear-cut statements of mine into byzantine fucking warrens of conspiracy
and ftr whatever you say is the case there is p much meaningless because if youre doing it on purpose youve got as much reason to lie as you do to talk straight about it, it's like claiming a non 3rd party alignment (except i guess in a multiball), its meaningless

now i admit, yeah, aubrey is a bit cautious in his reads. but ive seen town do that quite a bit on d1 too, hedging a bit
on d1 its not a scumtell, essentially. its NAI. if it continues into d2+, then yeah, scum -- but that means you dont push them d1 about it? because then they will realize they are in the spotlight and start to cover their tracks? and youll have a harder time convincing town of it later, when its actually alignment indicative, because you were pushing on it when it didnt matter and now its all hidden so you look confbiased to the point of uselessness if you point it out later?

if youre town youre setting yourself up to be gaslit by scum basically

[cassielle]

if aubrey flips green im pushing the bv=scum train from station to station yelling TOOT TOOT ALL ABOARD

[cassielle]

Can you guys please go read fitz' filter and tell me how any of his reasoning for scumreads ever makes anyone mafia?

I understand why it's bad, but does bad reads make someone mafia? Reading his filter, it also seemed like he was trying to actually consider my alignment and changing his opinion, which makes me think he's just awkward town.

Yes it usually does. When did he do that? Like now when we have some

dumbasses

yelling we cant lynch anyone but you??? Sounds like a safe place to start "reconsidering a read"...

starting to think i may indeed have been wrong on hapa

wow, what a surprise, right?

because ooo is using ad hominem to beat people with on the regular
ive only seen that come from scum, ever

ooo/bv/rels? nah, too easy

rels was extremely scummy looking tho. bv's got incoherent reasoning, is pushing in an extremely anti-town manner. ooo's doing something that my play heuristics tell me is pure scum

thinking bv's the weak one of that bunch, probably just an extremely tunnelly townie whos pushing bad slots. not liking the play but its not strictly /scum/, its just incredibly anti-town

so rels/ooo/???
im comfortable putting hapa back in there
rels/ooo/hapa

^^look i even took notes for you guys this time^^

p-edit: creature is impossible to read for people who havent figured out how to parse his meta

[cassielle]

I seriously believe we should murder fitz, or possibly Kop. Maybe hawk is the third scum but idk. I am not too confident on that.

Can you guys please go read fitz' filter and tell me how any of his reasoning for scumreads ever makes anyone mafia?

You have ignored repeated questions by me to you...I have seen no case by you on me...and you have a tendency to ad-hom players and/or disparage their ability.

OoO wagon would work as well.

really glad someone else picked up on the ad hominem

i really really despise playing with that. if i was in a better position/cared more about the game id powerlynch it to get it the hell out of the game (not to mention ive never seen town use ad hom to beat players with. in the heat of the moment, in response to ad hom attacks, sure, but never just throwing it at people)

[cassielle]

3 hours till eod and NO WAGONS ARE NEAR FULL

this is why i was saying HAPA LYNCH IS TODAY'S LYNCH

were gonna fuckin no lynch on BVs wagonwaffling derailing bs???????

this is the value of having a pre-decided d1 lynch target so you dont fucking run into a deadline lynch with NO VIABLE GODDAMN WAGONS

[cassielle]

if everyones vote is worthless for getting a goddamn lynch rn im gonna go out in style

VOTE: BlackVoid

ready to drive this to fuckin market tbh

[cassielle]

Cass, we can L1 one of Kop or Hawk.

somehow missed this

ok, so how can we do that? just our two votes together? last i saw the top wagons were L-4! (!!!)

if i had to pick one? hawk

kop is a worthless deadline lynch due to lurking
we just end up going into d2 with the same amount of info we started d1 with unless we actually hit scum!kop tbh

regardless of flip at least hawk has a lot of interactions

[cassielle]

fine

i hate this tho like REALLY HATE THIS

VOTE: Hawk

L-1 p sure

[cassielle]

bv is derailing scum

fuck
sake

[cassielle]

i want everyone on this wagon any goddamn way because i do not want a damned no lynch

but if/when hawk flips green we take bv down imo

he derailed wagons and WHAT HAPPENED? -- wouldnt you know it -- EXACTLY WHAT I SAID WOULD HAPPEN
a fucking compromise panicvoted deadline mislynch

everyone else saw the argument for staying on hapa but you wanna talk about browbeating? bv refused to engage with anyone who took a hard "no" stance on his bs
so people trickled away and scumleaned me like i was somehow talking crazy shit

[cassielle]

I feel like shit now.

Oh no... Bae it's okay. It was no lynch even I would have done the same even if I 99.5% townread you.

this

i townread hawk like a mofo since replacing in and i still voted
necessary evil

but i hate this gamestate
and i want bv to flip d2

[cassielle]

so uh, i owe bv apologies
hardbussing on the deadline is a losing gambit for scum in this setup (because every nk is quite possibly a death), esp against the tide
locktown imo

i still dont see the scum in hawks iso but w/e, he flipped red

[cassielle]

Hey we did the impossible that noone could ever do!
It's like magic!

i never said it was impossible, i said it was unlikely
ffs

[cassielle]

Lets lynch the omgusfitz!
Because he's gonna flip scum. Not sold on aubrey being mafia. Kop could be a good alternative to lynch. I dont wanna lynch hapa because i dont really think he is mafia and when he is not mafia his reads are good.

I have also decided that cassielle is town and i wont be reading any of her posts because they make literally zero sense.

If anyone wants some good laughs go read why havingfitz thinks creature is mafia. "All over the place" and "doesnt interact well eith others" != mafia. In fact its way more often the other way around. There is absolutely zero reason to think someone is mafia for that. In fact i dont understand any of his reads. All his scumreads are basically "i dont like how the person posts" which never makes anyone scum.

This sequence of posting makes me more than happy with an Ooo lynch. Will do more wordsing when I get out of work.

I am going to wait one day for an answer to this, which is something you promised but never followed up on.
I am especially interested in second quote, not in a sense of where you are coming from since you said it already in your post 895, but in a sense of how on earth you can possibly think the player who is literally most disruptive to the town in this game can possibly be the "driving force" behind the town. It doesn't make any sense.

Or maybe it's just a playstyle thing. But you can also think about it a little by yourself, was it better to actively try to solve the game or was it better to actively shut down any wagons for the last 3 days or so and just yell some random things. Give it a thought.

this attitude of "just attack people i dont like" is getting on my nerves

VOTE: outoforder

what does town get out of just insulting players they townread? nothing
what does scum get out of just insulting players they "townread"? demoralizing the town

literally your first two posts this dayphase are baselessly insulting me

slot either needs rope or to fucking work with people instead of just talking shit

[cassielle]

And speaking of talking shit you are getting on my nerves really hard because YOU are the ONLY person who filled this fucking thread with shit for the last three pages or so. So try to get some fucking grip and start playing mafia.

this is provably garbage

hang this slot, i'm not engaging with it except to request votes until and unless the player learns how to act like a decent human being

which i doubt will happen, theyre prob doing the -grey- thing where they get vicious at people who suspect their slot so the player stops having fun and is easily brushed off when they bring a case to the table (in which case no hard feelings, strategy is strategy, but i can't/won't put up with playing around it)

[cassielle]

Sup everyone. Will read this thread now.

Should we really vote for the people scum!Hawk told us to vote for after he got hammered??

Also, please tell me who you are willing to lynch and who you think is town.

Will go read the thread now.

i cant get over the TL trio for scum possibles kinda, could be TL meta but its not identical for each of them?
like rels just softballs scumread slots, or practically pencils in the answer on the side of his questions in some cases, then calls them giving the obvious answer town
hapa talks around people instead of to them, doesn't show interest in anything but his own slot surviving, throws scumreads at the wall and sees what sticks, etc
and ooo seems focused on making me miserable more than trying to work with one of his townreads, hurls verbal abuse at anyone whose play mildly inconveniences his own, exaggerates to the point of meaninglessness (bv for example has posted far more than me despite replacing in much later, yet i "spammed"), etc

bv is locktown, creature is town, kop is lurktown, kidamn is town

doomfeathers i waffled on like crazy (tho i only posted townreads because every time i posted i had settled on town) so your slot hopefully ends up looking better

p-edit: also kop is 100% correct there
like i suspected creature of it but it was more that i scumread him and his target, and i wanted to see if he'd obvtown when pressed and wanted to press hard
which paid off
and i had just replaced in so i wasnt thinking of scumstrat immediately, that had something to do with it also

[cassielle]

If you or anyone else has any willpower to argue about this tell this girl why even suggesting this at this state of the game is totally absurd and cannot possibly be true.

yes,

of course

im suggesting that ALL THREE OF YOU PLUS HAWK are the scum, WHEN THERES A SCUM TEAM OF THREE.

just like you are suggesting here:

Basically i am left with:
havingfitz
KidAmn
(Hapa/Rels)

what you are stating here is totally absurd and cannot possibly be true

you keep on painting me with this brush -- but the only way it works is if you purposefully misinterpret my posts
which you have of course been doing

and then you wonder why maybe i want some basic fucking respect out of you? please

[cassielle]

first, stop being so fucking aggressive. I'm talking to you so talk to me.

Let's have a fucking discussion.

friendly reminder that im not the only person to be saying this shit
can anyone tell me why town wants to demoralize the players? anyone at all here

also noting that rels is softballing when he talks at people again

bv lurky lately after a D1 spamshow, no way he 11th hour powerlynches his partner instead of letting a nolynch or mislynch go through, tho. need him to pick it up and play in the open more again, gamestate is curdling

[cassielle]

i have thoughts on the rels/kidamn interaction going on but im saving them while i wait for the big damn mistake that's a-coming down the pipe
someone in this thread isnt paying attention and i won't say whooooo

[cassielle]

i have thoughts on the rels/kidamn interaction going on but im saving them while i wait for the big damn mistake that's a-coming down the pipe
someone in this thread isnt paying attention and i won't say whooooo

Nah, that shit didn't fly D1, it doesnt fly now either.

if you mean me not talking about the interaction:
i am waiting on something to happen

if you mean me not talking about the person not paying attention:
theyre the one whos going to flub it and im waiting to see if its a townflub or a scumflub

talking about who im watching specifically defeats the purpose, they know they need to modify behavior
talking about the interaction itself makes both sides self-aware and feel exposed, which increases the chances they make a dumb move, which is the whole point
and talking about it in this weird circular way also increases those chances for the same reasons

that dumb move will tell me much more about them (especially the one im looking at the most) than most of the rest of their play will today

[cassielle]

I have no idea who his partner is. But right now, I just want to see who fits as scum with Hawk and who is scummy in their own right.

"Hap can't be scum because no one can be his partner" creates a falsely closed lynchpool.

In Mini 1843, I did that and winded up getting screwed when I should have just lynched my top scumread. I haven't finished re-reading through but I'm not willing to just let Hap skate by here.

yes hapa is probscum. and hes got some openings for players to be on team with him also
theyd just need to be one of the other TL guys

ooo would be good scum, top tier tho -- if yall got meta that says hes bad scum player we can safely write him off, and sorry, no self-meta acceptable
rels im withholding comment on atm except to wave vaguely at softballed questions and easy-mode townreads again

theres also kidamn -- withholding comment
momo/doom is a possible, i need to see more from momo first, but doom's townie posting was all either real bad reasoning or not looking at gamesolve in the first place. again tho momo might pull it out of the fire

and fitz, eh, ok, maybe. gut/tone townpings, but yeah the contents nonexistent or waffly, i can see it.
i tend to think of withholding reads as NAI tho because sometimes you just have zero confidence in your reads and some players havent realized the best way to get more confident is to start stomping on people with your crap reads and see what happens (i get called scum for doing this /all the time/ so that sort of withholding judgement when uncertain is a p common affliction)

kop doesnt feel like scum but tbh i dont want that slot anywhere near MyLo/LyLo unless i can coerce it to produce content

bv is locktown
creature is eeeeeeh. i wish hed continue to contribute more but hes falling off again and im thinking he needs to be given a second look or get a wild hair up his ass to start playing the game again
its hard to say hes playing his scum meta though. if he /is/ scum hes massively improved
still, i want the crossed-off-lists and digs-through-most-of-the-game-to-date-post-by-post creature, not this apathetic "so what now" creature

[cassielle]

yo Cass for the third time what's softballing and why are you saying I'm doing it ?

im keeping this quiet because reasons

if you really, truly still dont know after ive seen what i wanted, ill tell you, sure

for now? i wait for you and kidamn to continue

[cassielle]

Votecount 1.11

[L-2] KidAmn - Rels, hapahauli, Hawk, doomfeathers, cassielle
[L-3] Hapahauli - outoforder, KidAmn, Creature
[L-6] doomfeathers - MooginSoosy
[L-6] Kop - Aubrey
[L-6] Rels - Kop

Not voting: havingfitz

With 12 alive, a majority vote is decided with 7 players.

Deadline: (expired on 2017-03-01 23:00:00)

Deadline Extension Warning: I may or may not give up to 2 days of deadline extension for late replacers and people on V/LA to catch up.

Prod: Outoforder has (expired on 2017-02-26 12:30:00) to post until being force-replaced.

v/LA till Monday morning. I'll post if I get the chance.

found it for you ooo

[cassielle]

BlackVoid:

I don't find the argument as compelling as you do. I don't understand why does he call Hapa his #1 scum suspect at the time in the first place if he fears Hapa is getting lynched and is his partner. He doesn't really have to. Like why not just call Rels mafia there instead? Furthermore this sticks to my eye so hard:

Yeah I think if Hapa flips town Rels and OoO feel like good counter points. OoO has done a much less spectacular job outside of that first section of the game. Which with a little bit of coordination and some use of TL meta could all be contrived info. Of the three Hapa looked the worse but was also the one being setup if he flips town.

I don't like that OoO comes back with such a misrep on Cass feels like it's rather odd and kinda LAMIST. Then distraction wagon of Fitz who hasn't been corner for concern since much earlier in the day.

I'm okay with Hapa lynch today, if he flips scum I'm looking at Rels if he flips town look at OoO.

If we don't lynch Hapa, Rels is my backup because I think those two will yield the greatest information gain.

KidDamn looks like lynch bait by Rels Hapa wagon.

VOTE: Rels

Pedit: Kop echos sentiments here but I'm still concerned he's pushing Rels more than Hapa... but if that's the case I can easily see Kop Hapa if it's not Rels Hapa or something along those lines.

Also Kops point that Rels could flip scum makes me feel much better about Kop since he doesn't need to push Rels here if he's scum with him and they could just force that Hapa lynch.

Because what i see there is a setup to lynch 2 townies assuming Hapa is town (as he is basically telling "if people wanna lynch Hapa i will follow").
Do you really think he is actively trying to lynch Rels based on a case like "he's my #2 scumread and will yield most information if we lynch him"? Because i don't.

read a little further ahead, just after the vc where the rels wagon has 4 people on board -- hes saying he doesnt want a rels lynch today, he wants a hapa lynch d1, hes just pressing rels for (???? something about a lynch)

ill dig up the quote

p-edit: i did the same thing rels so unless you scumread me for that thats a poor argument. consistency or trash it
ooo's holds better

[cassielle]

@Hawk - how did you go from "Hap looks the worst of the three TL players and Rels is my backup," and saying that you are "okay with a Hap lynch, look at Rels if he's scum" to voting Rels? Then you say you are concerned that Kop is pushing Rels and that you could see Hap/Kop or Hap/Rels. Based on all of this, you should be voting Hap so I have no idea how you winded up with a Rels vote.

You distinctly left off a grand portion of my sentiments there including that I feel like of the three Hapa looks the worst but is also the one being pressured most and could be BEING SETUP either for a bus or a ML. Look at how OoO and Rels initially pressure and vote Hapa then Rels backs off from one reentering post by Hapa. At first during the day I dismissed almost that entire section of the read to being meta driven TL stuff but now that you pointed out more concisely that I can see a case for Hapa that isn't meta driven I'm worried that the Meta read from Rels and subsequent back off is either setting up Hapa as a Bus or as a ML.

Like Hapa's wagon has 0 resistance, (asside from me town reading his AtE earlier.) No one is actively saying we shouldnt vote Hapa except for Hapa.

That is like giant red warning signals flashing for me and I think since Hapa isn't going anywhere and we can just lynch him tomorrow even if it doesn't go anywhere applying pressure and possibly lynching associatives can put town one step closer to finding all 3 scum.

I mean say we lynch Hapa today no question to Rels motivations for saying no wait stop or Kops motivations to voting Rels instead of Hapa or anything Cass is doing or anything else. If Hapa flips town now where are we. Pushing Rels cause he called Hapa town? Pushing Cass, Creature, KidDamn and Everyone else who said Hapa is scum? oh wait that's everyone (sans kinda Rels and maybe OoO?)

Yeah I'm fairly certain Hapa will flip scum but I want more traction laid down by Rels and everyone else who has any motivations for not lynching Hapa. They have to be accountable whether he flips scum (likely) or flips town (unlikely).

Like this isn't us pushing a mislynch. We probably lynch Hapa today. But we have time. We still have what 2 days to talk? And OoO still hasn't really weighed back in besides a redux back onto Fitz which doesn't sit well with me either.

Pedit: I'll respond to Fitz in a minute. I'm just worried that Rels who seems to be the most active TL member who seems to TR Hapa and I want to know why.

nvm hes completely incoherent here
i bolded the standouts though -- its clear he wasnt looking for EITHER WAGON to hit lynchpoint

[cassielle]

I had a nice reply typed up then my phone fucked it all up by restarting itself for a update. So I will post this when I can get in front of a computer since I actually have a lot to say about this.

But to answer that last part BV yes I intend baring us finding some really good reasoning based of Rels response to lynch him. Move back to Hapa to end the day with that lynch.

ah here we go.

[cassielle]

Also Kops point that Rels could flip scum makes me feel much better about Kop since he doesn't need to push Rels here if he's scum with him and they could just force that Hapa lynch.

Actually i think this quote most likely proves Hawk knows Hapa is town.

shit

sounds legit actually yeah

[cassielle]

and while you're saying "I am not saying it makes you scum lol.", you're spending quite a lot of time giving hints to that direction. And that started to change Cass' read for example.

horse shit

i read everything like the person saying it has an agenda
because they DO
for example: in the quoted post im responding to, your agenda is to discredit OOO by making it look like his scumread of you is secret, you cast doubt on hapa as town, and you want to reinforce yourself as a town read in opposition to hapa

the hapa town read is based on a semantic slip of hawks, not OOO's agenda (which was not aimed at me there but rather just sharing information -- check the tone of his post, he wants to put out the cool idea he just had, he isn't thinking how it will be received)


now, that aside: @OOO, BV has a point that hawk avoided the hapa wagon like demon-possessed plague
theres two narratives here:
1: hapa is scum that hes trying to derail from off wagon, and he faked a slip for distancing if he gets lynched
2: hapa is town and hawk was pushing from off wagon for towncred from vca, and he made a genuine slip

which feels more likely to you?

[cassielle]

"I am not saying it makes you scum lol."
"I am not saying it makes you scum lol."
"I am not saying it makes you scum lol."
"I am not saying it makes you scum lol."
"I am not saying it makes you scum lol."
"I am not saying it makes you scum lol."
"I am not saying it makes you scum lol."
"I am not saying it makes you scum lol."
BUT IF RELS WAS SCUM HAWK SURE HAD A GOOD SCUM GAME RIGHT GUYYYYYS

now, boys and girls, time for one of those Famous Cassielle Teaching Moments

tell me, what does a scumslot do if its been guiltied by a confirmed cop?

and what do we see before us?

[cassielle]

They is the inverse mindset.
"Scum is not voting X but is voting every other wagon available"
This is the original information.
"X is scum". Makes sense. That's the straight up way, trying to protect his teammate.
"Nothing can be said abou it". Makes sense too. That's the WIFOM way, maybe scum is hoping X gets mislynched.

"X is more likely to be town". That makes no sense.

wrong

i even explained how. but wait WHOS NOT PAYING ATTENTION????

since the kidamn/rels thing is sadly over: rels hasnt been reading the game

i explained softballing 3 or more times including at least once on d2, he missed it
hes pushing kidamn on misrep that can only come from a skimread or cherrypicking posts
hes not paying any attention to other peoples' explanations of things unless theyre his "target" -- and then only the most recent posts are brought to mind

i was waiting for his lack of knowledge on the actual gamestate to bite him in the ass -- effectively putting himself in a headlock vs kidamn. would have been a great big "LOL *votes*" post and the pushing would have been simple. sadly i killed it by trying to ramp up the pressure, my bad there, but hey i learned something new (go lurk mode with little egging-on posts instead of trying to be transparent)

[cassielle]

What is false there?

Having votes != thread sentiment. Thread sentiment suggests that Hawk started deflecting from lynching you (which he never really did try in the first place tbh) when people got somewhat interested in it. The number of votes you were having when he unvoted is irrelevant.

know what else is interesting about thread sentiment and rels

when the thread sentiment turns against him d1, when hawk is active and helping, he goes silent running mode and ignores scumreads on him
come d2, hawk is gone and the only active players arent fans of his slot. and you get this:

"I am not saying it makes you scum lol."
"I am not saying it makes you scum lol."
"I am not saying it makes you scum lol."
"I am not saying it makes you scum lol."
"I am not saying it makes you scum lol."
"I am not saying it makes you scum lol."
"I am not saying it makes you scum lol."
"I am not saying it makes you scum lol."
BUT IF RELS WAS SCUM HAWK SURE HAD A GOOD SCUM GAME RIGHT GUYYYYYS

Hapa / OOO

Game over

[cassielle]

ironically acting like EXACTLY what he accused hapa of in his softballed push with the omgus

heh

[cassielle]

when the thread sentiment turns against him d1, when hawk is active and helping, he goes silent running mode and ignores scumreads on him

What time period are you talking about specifically?

same time period you are with his wagon getting traction
i.e. just before BV derailed on me

basically he was still calmly talking with people and appearing to play the game while oblivious to people scumreading his slot
i can grab quotes if you want them but tbh i dont think theres a point

i say that because its a HUGE HUGE HUGE change in tone from him, it's very simple to see he never acted like that d1 but suddenly the same old pressure falls on him and theres threadspamming and OMGUS and shadethrowing and casting doubt on everything???
like the only differences: fewer people pushing him (so uh i dont get the reaction?), hawk isnt around to defend his slot (this implies in a scum!rels world his other scum buddy was designated to distance from him or isnt online atm) and we have associatives to work with (doesnt really imply anything but i wanted to use parentheses again)
so you tell me what your conclusions are from this

again ill grab quotes if necessary

[cassielle]

gimme a sec then, may as well pull the quotes because i dont remember off hand heh

have to doublecheck

[cassielle]

actually reading back through quotes dont really do it justice, one of those "must see to believe" things kinda. context is important.

so it starts here: viewtopic.php?p=8925313#p8925313 1029. and it gets interesting here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p8925647 1062

like he can talk to the people scumreading him calmly and quietly all through d1
d2 he caves under minor pressure

[cassielle]

oh almost forgot about that
VOTE: rels

[cassielle]

actually I'll stop with the irony. Cass, you're not very good at mafia. At least this game, maybe in other games you played better IDK. You're almost lock town in my POV so I'm not talking about alignment there. But since you started playing I've seen you post lots of things that didn't make any sense.
Nothing you've said makes me scum. Let's see.

Because I don't know what "softballing" means doesn't mean shit.

You claim that I have not read the thread 'cause I'm missrepresenting something KidDamn did - by all means prove it.

You're saying that I was calm when being scumread and now I'm acting excited while being scumread so there is a difference. First, so what ? Second, I was not excited 'cause I was scumread. Actually nobody was pushing me when I "got excited", since you hadn't revealed your scumread yet. But I shouldn't have to even say that, 'cause the first counter argument was pretty good : so what ?

And finally this is the funniest thing: "when the thread sentiment turns against him d1, when hawk is active and helping, he goes silent running mode and ignores scumreads on him"
Tghen you quote the part in question: "so it starts here: viewtopic.php?p=8925313#p8925313 1029. and it gets interesting here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p8925647 1062"
Well. What's really funny in your link is that you're pointing to the firs titme in the thread someone started to scumread Hawk. Out of nowhere. While being "scumread myself and ignoring it", as you're saying. Don't know how that makes sense in your world.

Voilà. Get good mate.

i "revealed" my scumread of you on d1 and never retracted it since so that parts flat out wrong

i claimed that /multiple/ things show you havent been paying attention to the thread -- and ftr, while not paying attention isn't instascum, its scum-indicative (town wants to be up to date on the gamestate, scum already knows everything that town is trying to learn)
my scumread of you isnt based on you not reading, that simply strengthens it. assuming its the entire basis of my scumread on you is ridiculous and false

and your rebuttal to the scumread personality thing is 1: not a very good one since it doesnt by any means cancel out what i said, 2: irrelevant to my scumread of you because it was more an interesting thing i noticed that i wanted people to talk about (because the way people respond to that can be strongly alignment indicative) than a reason to scumread you

so let's see what we have here! we got:

Spoiler: one (1) blatant falsehood

my scumread of you was never secret

Spoiler: one (1) misinterpretational strawman

i said something different than what youre replying to and your interpretation of what i didnt say is incorrect besides

Spoiler: one (1) assumption of my intent

i even stated that i would leave people to conclude what they would about it and didnt respond to ooo's rebuttal because i thought it was a fair point, but i still wanted people to talk about it

and

Spoiler: one (1) casting doubt on my ability to play

aka ad hominem attack, which i have gone over my opinion of already in great detail

this recipe sucks, dinner is cancelled

[cassielle]

rels im withholding comment on atm except to wave vaguely at softballed questions and easy-mode townreads again

What townreads did you find "easy-mode" ?

hapa

he barely fought back just sort of waved wildly in some other direction and youre like "pretty sure hapa is town too" after scumreading him for "blatant omgus" just a post or two beforehand (which is a damned weak reason to scumread someone btw)

[cassielle]

Hapa showed no emotion early when he was pressured by rayn; and again now he's defending himself A LOT, but in the bad sense of the way. Pushing the "EVERYBODY SCUMREADS ME FOR NO R4EASON" without showing he's pissed

KidDamn had an horrible defense against your case Hapa, then had 3 worthless posts since. Why are you not pushing him ?

I.
Don't.
Even.

talk to me

Cassy is likely town. Hapa might be town

Of course all these people can't be mafia. People like Doomfeathers and OoO are probalby town (for reasons I explained before). Creature as well. Fitz seems atleast to be thinking about his read on me, which makes me think I was wrong about him.

But

KidAmn

and

Cassielle

stick out as the mafia on my wagon.

Cassielle

is not considering new information in the thread. She read the thread once, decided I was mafia, and that was that. She has no interest in talking about her read on me, and every interest in repeatedly calling me mafia (to the point that she's calling Creature's vote on me a bus). This is a very strong sign of mafia - she's pushing an agenda and not an actual read. There's no way it's townie confirmation bias, since there's no evidence she actually read my filter other than some throw-away tone read.

KidAmn

is pushing me for reasons that have already been discredited. Again, not considering new information. Pushing an agenda. Etc. Refusal to parse new information goes beyond confirmation bias into a scummy agenda.

What about off your wagon. Who's scum off your wagon. (besides Kop who is still off all wagons!!)

What about this?

Lynching Frederick would be a huge cop out. He's a coinflip lynch and won't be around to defend himself. There are plenty of other people worth lynching and debating over him right now.

Plenty of other people worth debating was who? Fitz and KidDamn? You've given soft townreads to Fitz and Doom now do you're back on KidDamn and FEC's slot which you had said it was a cop out lynch? Cassiele's once through and the scum pick on you is difference enough to push as scum #1?

I get your frustrated but OMGUS cases don't paint you in the best light if you flip town well fuck. :/ Rels do you really think this could be TvT you know Hapa better than me or this possibly TvS?

Yes, my reads evolve with new information. Grass is green. Sky is blue.

Frederick was an inactive lurker for most of the game. I didn't think anything he did was alignment indicative. A lynchbaity type player who was going to be replaced by a more active player later on.

Cassy was the "more active" player who replaced in, and is also probably mafia based on her entrance.

Here are the relevant VCs in how Hawk treats the Hap wagon. You'll see full context here. Basically, he helped build a Kop counterwagon to Hap. Then as monentum switched to KidAmn, he voted there too. Finally as the KidAmn wagon dismantled and people started talking about Hap/Rels as scum, he voted Rels.

Votecount 1.8

[L-4] Hapahauli - outoforder, KidAmn, havingfitz, Creature
[L-3] Kop - doomfeathers, Rels, Hawk, Aubrey
[L-6] doomfeathers - MooginSoosy
[L-6] cassielle - hapahauli

Not voting: Kop, cassielle

For the first one, if you click on the links, you'll see that he voted Kop right after Creature voted Hap so he was building a counter-wagon. He did it with terrible reasoning: that Kop's reaction to Doom was good but that Kop didn't actually vote Doom.

Votecount 1.10

[L-4] Hapahauli - outoforder, KidAmn, Creature
[L-4] KidAmn - Rels, hapahauli, Hawk
[L-5] Kop - doomfeathers, Aubrey
[L-6] doomfeathers - MooginSoosy
[L-6] Rels - Kop

Not voting: havingfitz, cassielle

Then he helps build a KidAmn wagon as a counter to Hap. He wasn't even scumreading KidAmn. If you look at 786, he just waffles around on KidAmn and throws a bunch of shade on Rels and ties him to Hap claiming that Rels is scum regardless of what Hap's alignment was. He had no real reason to vote KidAmn but ties it with Hap wagon anyways. Once KidAmn ATEs and makes Hawk second-guess in 789, he doesn't unvote.

Votecount as of 859 where I vote Hap

[L-3] KidAmn - Rels, hapahauli, Hawk, doomfeathers,
[L-3] Hapahauli - KidAmn, Creature, BlackVoid
[L-6] Kop - Aubrey
[L-6] Rels - Kop

Not voting: havingfitz, outoforder, cassielle

So, I made a case and voted Hap while also having Rels as a null-read. In 861, Hawk unvotes but doesn't put a vote down on anyone. In 862, Cass says that she's scumreading Rels and thinks that Kop is bad town. In 866, doomfeathers switches his vote to Kop dismantling the KidAmn wagon. In 887, Kop lays out a case on Rels. In 888, Hawk follows with a vote on Rels while calling Hap scum.

Compare the way Hawk is putting down his votes with the way he talks about Hap, almost like he knows Hap will flip scum. There are several points where he says that Hap is almost definitely scum.

whats your take on the chances of hawk intentionally trying to tie himself to town!hapa

ive seen scum not at risk of a lynch do that from d1 just in case

that is what i mostly found compelling about ooo's argument ftr

[cassielle]

hjoly shit what happend there, so many quotes

[cassielle]

ahhh right i was working on responding to rels in more detail but decided to let it lie for awhile and see where his responses went

stupid multiquote feature

[cassielle]

By "intentionally tying himself to Hap," if you mean making Hap look guilty in case he, Hawk flips, I don't see why he would try to make a doomed townie look guilty just in case he somehow flips before that townie. Remember it looked like Hap was the lynch for the day, not Hawk until the last seven hours or so till deadline.

If you are saying he's trying to get towncred from a Hap townflip, I'd argue that he would actually call Hap town while pushing counterwagons. He wouldn't say he was very confident in a Hap scumflip while subtly laying down his votes elsewhere and working against the lynch.

This is also Hawk's first game as scum

so I don't expect an insane level of manipulation.

didnt know that

ok cool your interp fits

[cassielle]

Would like to see where exactly Cass thinks Rels has deliberately misinterpreted me. FWIW I think most of his arguments have come from a point of good faith so I'm wondering what Cass thinks she's seen that I haven't.

i never ever said deliberately misinterpreted

[cassielle]

yeah that what makes the most sense. Apart from that one Hawk post that made me think Hawk / KidDamn would be weird:

Like I said, I don't really give a damn about this game, it's more about the three amigos having a circlejerk and apparently someone else backing off means I don't get to have a case so fuck it, do whatever.

OMG the amount of times that this response has been the first lynch in games is ridiculous.

Kid come on give a case or if that one's falling through push your second scumread don't just resign to defeat. You're at like what L-4?

Who's been pinging you lately? Who's posts just haven't been up to scruff??

But it makes waaaay more sense than any other scum team.

I'm still trying to work out just what your actual case for me as scum is, because the most you've done is a series of spammy single line posts that have decided on and then dismissed Hapa as scum, and decided I must be scum with Fitz because... Reasons? Which you've never given? And prior to this the most you've done is quote a bunch of my posts and vote me. If anyone deserves to be accused of not caring enough about their wagon it's you imo, your posts say almost nothing in terms of actual reasoning.

- POE. Almost everyone else is townier than you.
- Partner POE. Lots of people don't make sense together as a scum team. You on the contrary makes sense with Fitz. You have talk about him quite a lot, you're attacking OOO for his Fitz read actually, but I don't see you having an opinion on him.
- Your defense against Hapa's pressure. It was scummy. Very scummy. Like a scum who got caught. OMGUS, stretching reasons to attack his opponent.
- Your play since then. Mostly forgettable. Wasn't there for the deadline, didn't vote Hawk.
Why if Fitz town ?

Deadline was around 3am my time on a workday. Not happening, didn't realise timezones were scumreads now.

My play is "Mostly forgettable" Come up with something objective and I might actually respond to it.

My main scumread is pushing Fitz for reasons you yourself admitted on D1 had almost nothing tangible behind them. Fitz has mostly been VLA and the whole thing feels like a very desperate and unpleasantly aggressive Ooo trying to push a mismatch on very little case and lots of "omg look at this lurking scum omg his walls have nothing because I say so". I didn't agree with the case D1 and the insistence combined with the attacks on people who disagree from Ooo and yourself feels off. That's why I think he's town, and I would love to hear why you think I would go to bat for someone this hard if you genuinely think I'm in a scumteam with them, having already lost 1 out of 3.

Incidentally, repeatedly calling my calling out of Hapa's hypocrisy in his D1 case on me OMGUS will not make it true.

idk why i need to point it out to you when you pointed it out yourself but i mean lets do this

Spoiler: quotedump

He's pretty critical of people "coasting", but that's basically what he's doing himself this game. He has 16 posts, most of which were made while defending himself from my early-game push against him. Scum love to criticize town for fucking up, but do nothing themselves to help the situation.

Secondly, probably the most substantial thing he has in his filter deals with his "read" on Creature:

Similarly something feels off to me about Creature - the rather blasé nature of their posting, throwing out town and scum-reads with little to no reasoning (looking at their ISO, their longest post is a whole 3 lines?)... it just comes across as the opposite of "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing" - and certainly not a tale told by an idiot. It's deliberate and I dislike it, but unfortunately it matches up with looking at their posting in a couple of other games I've looked at. Having Allomancer as one of their scumreads despite them being so inactive they've picked up a prod also feels lazy as hell, as if they're covering themselves by saying "I had a scumread on Allomancer" for if/when a "fuck it, get rid of these lurkers" wagon happens.

I've been driving the wife around all day, cut a fella some slack on the meme game.
As for the vote - Honestly, right now I could go for F.E.C. or Creature, but I'm willing to give both a chance to respond (Creature more-so as my issue with him seems to just be

how he plays

). Moogin needs to contribute way more than they have so far, so not disagreeable to putting some pressure there either.

In the first post, he calls Creature mafia for questionable reasons. This isn't inherently scummy - I'd understand why a less experienced townie could call Creature mafia for his posting style.

However the second post is quite scummy.

He mentions supporting a vote on Creature, while giving good reasons to call creature town. He then finishes off by throwing Shade at a 3rd player. It's very hard for me to see this post coming from town.

The thought process of a townie is "I think <player> is mafia, therefore I should vote <player>."
NOT
"<Player> can be town for <reasons>, but I'm cool with voting him anyway."

That's not a town mentality. Town want to lynch players that they're suspicious of, not players who they have reasons to think are NOT suspicious.

There's no mention of why he thinks Creature could be more likely mafia than town. He basically acknowledges that all of his reasons to vote Creature are non alignment indicative, yet he clearly states that he would vote him.

I don't have a ton of time to respond to all this bullshit where Hapahauli runs back to his first scum-reads again to drum up a counter wagon instead of doing anything productive, so I'm just gonna make some things clear:

- I'm "coasting" because I work 50 hours a week in an environment where I don't get to spend my time sat at a desk posting walls of waffle about interactions with players on a completely different site, so yes, my posting is sporadic

- The idea that being willing to give FEC and Creature a chance to respond to my issues is scummy is straight up bullshit. If giving people chances to respond is anti-town and making use of the time the town has to discuss things is anti-town then I want a ticket to whatever bizzaro world you're on. You also conveniently ignore that my issue isn't just with his style of posting, I also referred to the fact that he was throwing out town and scum reads with little reasoning behind them AND him throwing a town read on Allomancer who had done nothing of note all game

- You conveniently ignore that my other scum read at the time (FEC) was solidly based on a series of particularly scummy looking posts

PEDIT - as Doomfeather says you literally do the thing you accuse me of where you call kop scum and then list a bunch of reasons he could be town

In summary, bite my shiny metal ass
VOTE: Hapahauli

You call Kop your second strongest read and then follow it with a list of reasons he might not be scum, one of which is his posting style with bigass walls of text catchup, while criticising me for having a weak scum-read on Creature but admitting that part of my issue could just be his posting style

Do you not see the contradiction there

Jfc phone posting. Mistype on my part from all these fucking walls of text - should be Fitz.

Point still stands, and calling you out on your bullshit with actual arguments is the opposite of "OMGUS" - the definition of OMGUS is a vote with no real reason other than 'fuck you' although that is basically my thoughts right now

misrep because you clearly outlined (TWICE) why precisely your vote wasnt OMGUS, you gave him information that should have jogged his memory ("pointing out his hypocrisy"), you all but started waving your arms at the posts and yelling "LOOK WITH YOUR EYES HERE MAN WTF" and he still said the same things about what you were doing

reminder: not reading is not in and of itself scum (though it has strengthened my PRE-EXISTING scumread of his slot due to being lightly indicative of scum)
but its important to point out regardless
why?
because it sets a baseline for how his slot plays at this point in time, which turns NAI posts into AI strategic play in some cases

so i pointed it out while it was still the case /and/ after it looked like he wasnt going to continue to inflate the amount of evidence of it

[cassielle]

i agree with all of his reasons and the reasoning behind them is evident -- theres even evidence given for 90% of it and in context the evidence of the rest is close by

just because you disagree with someones reasons doesnt make a vote OMGUS or else no one could be suddenly aware of someone looking like scum after they get a crap push made on their slot without acting like scum

the things to look for are:
are the reasons fleshed out and detailed (flip side: is it a vaguepost or a naked push? by no means. its rather lengthy and brings up at least 3 separate arguments that are independent of each other)
is the reasoning AS STATED backed by the evidence? (yes, it is. all of the things he said hapa did in those posts are in fact things that hapa did)
does the reasoning revolve around at the very least anti-town behavior? (yes. hapahauli was calling kidamn scum for things that hapa himself did. either those things arent scummy, or he's not sufficiently self-aware to notice he does them -- put another way, at best town!hapa is leading town into a mislynch on his slot through sheer obliviousness, at worst scum!hapa forgot some slightly earlier play of his that made his push look bad)
and after those are satisfied look at tone -- kidamns tone there isnt visibly vengeful/"get the fuck off of me", its "i think you made a grave mistake with this silly push of yours"

these are key because otherwise no one can start a wagon against the person pushing them because someone in the town is gonna end up disagreeing with their reasoning whether by spite, due to wincon, for towncred, etc etc
in short, its silly to call something OMGUS because you dont agree

i reserve the term OMGUS for naked votes, baseless assertions of the attacking slot's alignment, blatant confabulation, and vagueposts
and all of these are quite common and (excepting blatant confabulation) in any case NAI -- i see them quite often from town as well as scum

[cassielle]

because i can vote whoever i want for whatever reasons i want and i think people need to pay more attention to you atm

theres a whole great big dayphase ahead of us and i have slots to sort, scum to find and reasoning to improve upon and/or discard

why try to end the day early by building that wagon? hes already a shoe-in lynch (and unlike d1 we have a high likelihood of hitting scum with a sufficiently good last minute argument)

[cassielle]

you didn't finish answering me yesterday too, about the "easy townreads" or whatever, who was basically just me townreading Hapa too easily D1. Apparently it's a big part of your scumread on me since my Hapa questionning D1 is also softballing questionning from your POV. What do you think of what I've said since the day started about Hapa ? Even before you voted me ?

first of all
softballing questions is where you ask easy questions, or questions with the "correct" answers out in the open, or questions which have no truly AI answers
its used by town and scum, but town tends to use it to bait rhetorical traps (or to give a disinterested townie a leg up and back into the game, as i did twice thus far) while scum tends to use it to give scumbuddies towncred
a key distinction is to look at the mood and activity of the player being given the easy questions and the players response to the answers given
if the questioned slot is active and engaged in the game AND the questioner slot accepts the answers easily, its scum-indicative

secondly: you took hapas answers to your softballed questions at face value and turned around like "i think hes town guys" -- thats a crap reason to townread someone you just said was scummy-looking, it felt more like you were trying to bank on your early-day towncred to pull hapa out of a hole

third: i voted you d1 and my scumread of you has never changed since then, i just was pissed about ooo's ad hom attacks and wanted to get that shit out of the game

finally:you say youre scumreading hapa but continue to look elsewhere -- sure, thats something /everyone/ is doing, but i dont think you realize theres a scum narrative there
goes something like "distance from your buddy, blend in with the townies, and find a weak slot to push a mislynch on as the 'third scum'"
in other words the simple fact that youre scumreading hapa publicly isnt good enough to sort you with-- did you see BVs argument for hawk/hapa, for instance? you can bring great arguments to the table there and all but it doesnt change the fact that scum and town can and would both do that right now

(and ftr the people /not/ doing that are also in need of a second look atm because thats just as NAI and just as easy to hide in as scum)

oh, right. and you said hapa had to be town in the early parts of this dayphase -- you voted him from left field, then said "naaaaah" and unvoted
in fact you didnt scumread hapa until the precise moment that doing so let you push ooo, even spent a lot of time in a scum!KidAmn world (which is bunk because i cant see a hapa/KidAmn team in a million years) right up until that point...
...so your defense here is pretty weak tbh

[cassielle]

It's not a defense, I don't need to defend myself TBH, I don't think I'm ever getting lynched this game. I have all the motivation in the world now. What I'm doing is that I'm trying to see your logic.

"even spent a lot of time in a scum!KidAmn world (which is bunk because i cant see a hapa/KidAmn team in a million years)"
That is precisely why I unvoted Hapa in the first place - so you thinking I unvoted Hapa until later, but also thinking it was scummy that I scumread KidDamn doesnt' make sense. It doesn't add up. I spent a lot of time in the scum!KidDamn world exactly because I was not seeing who could be partner with Hapa.

Furthermore, you're saying I'm bussing my partner Hapa, to get a mislynch after Hapa is lynched. You're forgetting something apparently. In this game scum can get killed during the night if their tager arms themselves. In that setup, bussing my partner D2 makes me lose the game 99% of the time.

distancing is not bussing
and i dont scumread you for being in the scum!KidAmn world after unvoting hapa, thats false

[cassielle]

It's not a defense, I don't need to defend myself TBH, I don't think I'm ever getting lynched this game. I have all the motivation in the world now. What I'm doing is that I'm trying to see your logic.

"even spent a lot of time in a scum!KidAmn world (which is bunk because i cant see a hapa/KidAmn team in a million years)"
That is precisely why I unvoted Hapa in the first place - so you thinking I unvoted Hapa until later, but also thinking it was scummy that I scumread KidDamn doesnt' make sense. It doesn't add up. I spent a lot of time in the scum!KidDamn world exactly because I was not seeing who could be partner with Hapa.

Furthermore, you're saying I'm bussing my partner Hapa, to get a mislynch after Hapa is lynched. You're forgetting something apparently. In this game scum can get killed during the night if their tager arms themselves. In that setup, bussing my partner D2 makes me lose the game 99% of the time.

distancing is not bussing
and i dont scumread you for being in the scum!KidAmn world after unvoting hapa, thats false

Then don't say it like that: " even spent a lot of time in a scum!KidAmn world (which is bunk because i cant see a hapa/KidAmn team in a million years) right up until that point...
...so your defense here is pretty weak tbh"

So basically you still scumread me for the way I interacted with Hapa D1. The rest is just storytelling around that fact. For example when you're describing why I would distance myself from Hapa now, it's storytelling; it's a nice story but it doesn't prove anything one way or the other. I can be scum distancing or town pushing his scumread.

That's fine though. If that's the only thing you have against me your read will change sooner or later.

D1 is always my worst day.

i like seeing this
one thing i dont do (though people often mistake my play for it) is tunnel, im always always always re-evaluating my reads

so yeah if youre town youll get out of that hole eventually -- until then it doesnt hurt to keep you at the forefront of peoples minds

[cassielle]

I am going to now tell you something. There is absolutely no way there is 2 mafia in me/Hapa and Rels. You can choose to not believe me but that is 100% going to be the truth this game. I know i am not mafia and

there is literally no way either of me and Rels would have treated Hapa early on in the game like we did in case he was mafia. Maybe you are right and Hapa is mafia, i just don't believe it.

can anyone see what i see

[cassielle]

I am going to now tell you something. There is absolutely no way there is 2 mafia in me/Hapa and Rels. You can choose to not believe me but that is 100% going to be the truth this game. I know i am not mafia and

there is literally no way either of me and Rels would have treated Hapa early on in the game like we did in case he was mafia. Maybe you are right and Hapa is mafia, i just don't believe it.

can anyone see what i see

what about you creature, can you see what i see

[cassielle]

Something like "there's no way we would have whiteknighted scum"?

not quite. here:

I am going to now tell you something. There is absolutely no way there is 2 mafia in me/Hapa and Rels. You can choose to not believe me but that is 100% going to be the truth this game. I know i am not mafia and

there is literally no way either of me and Rels would have treated Hapa

early on in the game like we did in case he was mafia

. Maybe you are right and Hapa is mafia, i just don't believe it.

[cassielle]

Hapahauli cannot possibly be mafia with anyone in this game except for maybe Creature and Cassielle and neither of those combinations make any sense to me. So there is that.
If you wanna lynch Hapa i'll put my own game in the line because i actually feel that strong about it right now. If you want to lynch Hapa the only player he really makes sense as mafia is me, so i propose that you lynch me instead of him.

Then you just don't get retarded and lynch

havingfitz

. Then you can still lynch both of

KidAmn and Rels.

And that's going to win the game. We can afford 2 mislynches.

I will help you with self-voting if that's the case.
I'd rather lynch mafia though.

the problem with this is WIFOM

would scum say this to get the towncred of saying it? we dont/cant know

i mean i know you put effort into this post and all but all im thinking atm is "sure, lets do that" because that possible-bluff almost deserves calling
VOTE: outoforder

[cassielle]

idk, one week is enough to start trying lynches.

It isn't recommended to start looking for lynches just when there are three days left.

Well idk how you guys usually work here but i work with the mindset of "more information = more accuracy". IML games are quite terrible for that tbh since usually people end up getting bored because they could lynch already and make rash decisions with limited amount of information (in comparison to what it could be). Therefore in my opinion reads and strong opinions matter way more than actual votes (early on), since it's really just dumb to lynch when you have like 2/3 of dayphase left. Even if you had a confirmed scum it's dumb because the more time town has the more likely town is winning the game. That is - if people don't be dumb and actually USE the time they have.

this is just so telling to me
like

ok, dude, when i was new on this site, i said the same thing
hell, creature was there for it

and i caught both fuckin scum end of d1 with that mentality, but i got flak for it from town and scum both so i doubted my reads and ended up pocketed by one scumplayer and not recognizing the other scumplayer as scum anymore

the problem is -- ok, im not saying youre /wrong/, hell no, obviously its good play
BUT

but site meta prefers early lynches past d1 because 1: you can only lynch a single slot a day, 2: herding town onto a wagon is like herding cats into a bathtub, 3: scum can hide in the end-of-day chaos when theres a lot of deadline panicvoting, and they can also redirect arguments so they come out clean next dayphase and hands-off grab themselves two or three MLs in the process

[cassielle]

Hapahauli cannot possibly be mafia with anyone in this game except for maybe Creature and Cassielle and neither of those combinations make any sense to me. So there is that.
If you wanna lynch Hapa i'll put my own game in the line because i actually feel that strong about it right now. If you want to lynch Hapa the only player he really makes sense as mafia is me, so i propose that you lynch me instead of him.

Then you just don't get retarded and lynch

havingfitz

. Then you can still lynch both of

KidAmn and Rels.

And that's going to win the game. We can afford 2 mislynches.

I will help you with self-voting if that's the case.
I'd rather lynch mafia though.

the problem with this is WIFOM

would scum say this to get the towncred of saying it? we dont/cant know

i mean i know you put effort into this post and all but all im thinking atm is "sure, lets do that" because that possible-bluff almost deserves calling
VOTE: outoforder

Do you believe me in case i flip town?

i believe that you genuinely think that
i dont agree with your thought process tho and thus dont agree with the conclusion

i have good reason to vote you here and it will become apparent /before/ end of day, one way or the other

[cassielle]

Well that's what i kinda believed you'd say.
But i don't really care. I care about if my reads are good or not. I think they are this game and i think i have solved the game to a point where i don't have to find the last mafia since i have PoE'd everyone else out of the equation. And i can't tell which one of KidAmn and Rels is scum atm. No rereading will do the magic for me here since i've read it all enough times.

hm

i should take a look at possible worlds

[cassielle]

possible scum:
fitz, hapa, kidamn, ooo, rels

pairings:
fitz/hapa>> possible? need to reread
fitz/kidamn>> ditto

fitz/ooo

>> not possible
fitz/rels>> possible
-
hapa/kidamn>> unlikely but possible
hapa/ooo>> possible
hapa/rels>> possible
-
kidamn/ooo>> unlikely but possible

kidamn/rels

>> not possible
-
ooo/rels>> possible


gonna take a bit and reread
may as well do nka while im at it to ping a pairing or two from aubrey's reads

[cassielle]

You don't even need to reread anything to tell i am never mafia with Rels.

i see a lot of distancing but i havent seen a single one of you try to push the other seriously

also thats precisely what scum!ooo would say in a ooo/rels world. sorry

[cassielle]

possible scum:
fitz, hapa, kidamn, ooo, rels

pairings:

fitz/hapa

>> not possible
fitz/kidamn>> possible

fitz/ooo

>> not possible
fitz/rels>> possible
-
hapa/kidamn>> unlikely but possible
hapa/ooo>> possible
hapa/rels>> possible
-
kidamn/ooo>> unlikely but possible

kidamn/rels

>> not possible
-
ooo/rels>> possible

possible teams:
fitz: 2
hapa: 3
kidamn: 3
ooo: 3
rels: 3

doing nka next

also: distancing from rels in case you actually get taken to the lynch. +towncred also yes
and theres WIFOM: sometimes town wont call the bluff, theyll say "nah only town would do that" and leave it be. which is why scum do it

besides, if youre town you dont need to worry about rels being lynched after you anyway now do you?

[cassielle]

Oh i am sorry i misunderstood what whiteknighting means. What i meant is that you can always call someone being bussing because "it's beneficial as you gain so much town credit you basically never get lynched".

the main thing is the WIFOM tbh

also i did nka on aubrey and welp... ill do a new post for that

[cassielle]

so: aubrey's last scumreads were fitz (for over-defensiveness) and kop (for not being on any wagon at eod) (with remnants of shadecasting at hapa but not an actual scumread of him)

so no matter what we think atm, fitz/kop is a possible world

i scumread fitz after my reread of his ISO, and ive had doubts about kop for a couple days because lurkslots are NAI, not town-indicative, and i may have been giving him a bit too much of a pass
so i find this nka result to be right up my alley, so to speak

fitz is best lynch for today imo

[cassielle]

does anyone in particular disagree with a fitz wagon for today (except fitz ofc)?

speak and ye shall be heard

[cassielle]

fitz is best lynch for today imo

Was there more to your opinion than reading my ISO?

Any specifics I can address?

honestly poe + nka would still make you the best lynch for today so not really unless you think you can suddenly obvtown like crazy

[cassielle]

I get poe....some of my reads are based on it. But how is Aubrey linked to me giving he was pretty much confirmed town? I don't see anyone being implicated by Aubrey's nk.

Now if people want to hold my Aubrey suspicions against me in light of his flip...that's different. Misguided but more valid.

and so someone doesnt know what nightkill analysis is or is trying to obfuscate and redirect

so i ask again: anyone saying no to a fitz lynch?

VOTE: havingfitz

[cassielle]

He is right though in that Aubrey's nk doesn't implicate anyone.

we have two who dont get what nka is now

nka is basically this:
assume the scum team wants to kill anyone whos a little too close to the truth
look at the nk's last scumreads and point at those people

this is objectively the best possible kill to make for the scumteam because it ensures they dont get pressed on the next day -- UNLESS
UNLESS it implicates them by way of nka.
but nka isnt very common (maybe even better to say its very uncommon) so very few people do WIFOM kills to avoid NKA
so generally speaking, NKA done infrequently enough will almost always catch scum

[cassielle]

I get poe....some of my reads are based on it. But how is Aubrey linked to me giving he was pretty much confirmed town? I don't see anyone being implicated by Aubrey's nk.

Now if people want to hold my Aubrey suspicions against me in light of his flip...that's different. Misguided but more valid.

and so someone doesnt know what nightkill analysis is or is trying to obfuscate and redirect

so i ask again: anyone saying no to a fitz lynch?

VOTE: havingfitz

I'm hesitant because several people I'm leery of are in favour of it, especially the fact that Ooo is posting shit like this

Hapahauli cannot possibly be mafia with anyone in this game except for maybe Creature and Cassielle and neither of those combinations make any sense to me. So there is that.
If you wanna lynch Hapa i'll put my own game in the line because i actually feel that strong about it right now. If you want to lynch Hapa the only player he really makes sense as mafia is me, so i propose that you lynch me instead of him.

Then you just don't get retarded and lynch

havingfitz

. Then you can still lynch both of

KidAmn and Rels.

And that's going to win the game. We can afford 2 mislynches.

I will help you with self-voting if that's the case.
I'd rather lynch mafia though.

Which is full of alternative facts (Hapa cannot be scum with anyone but Creature and Cass) and "Lynch these 3 and you win the game" which is one of those too good to be true things (especially given I know that I'm on that list as town which means at least one of those lynches is a mislynch). I get very wary of anyone, no matter how strong a townread I might have on them, who presents a list of things YOU MUST DO AND YOU WILL WIN GAME (outside of very specific and obvious scenarios obviously) and Ooo hasn't qualified as a townread in any sense of the word in a long time.

The amount of aggro followed by weird roundabout agreement between Ooo and Cass is bothering me too. Not sure if hatef**k or they're doing exactly what Cass purported to believe Rels/Ooo to be doing, but the fact Cass went from

the problem with this is WIFOM

would scum say this to get the towncred of saying it? we dont/cant know

i mean i know you put effort into this post and all but all im thinking atm is "sure, lets do that" because that possible-bluff almost deserves calling
VOTE: outoforder

to jumping on the wagon Ooo wanted in the space of ~2 pages

So yeah, to answer your question, right now I emphatically do not want any part of this wagon.

nka + possible worlds analysis + an iso reread on fitz made it clear that fitz is a really good lynch

so uh i dont see the issue unless youre advancing a me+ooo team in which case loooooooooooooooooool

[cassielle]

But see Cass, this is kind of what you said me and Rels are doing... It is PRETTY CLOSE to that tbh.

truth be told i wouldnt know, because things like that are always incredibly different depending on perspective

ill take your word for it for now

[cassielle]

I'm not unvoting Hap. From his end, he barely had any interaction with Hawk. Just two posts 687 and 725 where he interacts with Hawk but doesn't state a read on him. Then comes 1371 saying Hawk is probably mafia right when he votes him at deadline. He also never retracts his Aubrey scumread which I find suspicious just because of how unlikely it was for them to be partners based on how Hawk jumped on the Aubrey wagon. Since then his prod-dodging did nothing to change my mind.

With that said, I'd prefer to not end the day anytime soon. There's so much information we still need in order to solve the game and cutting it short will put us on the backfoot. For example, I've been waiting for a lot of these things to happen:
1. Momo catching up and thoroughly explaining his reads.

2. Kop either doing the same and explaining his Rels read or him getting replaced and the replacement getting up to speed.

3. Hap finding time for this game and giving us his updated thoughts.
4. Fitz's outoforder case.
5. Creature hopefully becoming more active.

We can't just let Momo and Kop skate by and end the day. Because in case we're wrong about them being town, we'll never get a chance to figure it out unless we prod them into activity. So, that's my reason for wanting to prolong the day.

@momo - when you voted Fitz, what were you basing your decision on? Could you also lay out reasons for your scumreads on Kop, Hap, and Rels?

@outoforder - you were unsure about Hapahauli yesterday. Is your sole reason for townreading him that he showed up at deadline to put down a vote on Hawk? He already said earlier when Aubrey was a likely lynch that he'd be back before deadline. If he didn't show up and Hawk got lynched, that would look pretty bad for him. If he didn't show up and Hawk was lynched D2, that would also look bad for him. But voting when he did makes it a lot more ambiguous so I don't really see that as a strong reason to townread him. You got any other reason? I'm not one to buy into the "lynch me and do this" stuff. If you are town, just walk me through exactly why you are townreading Hap and scumreading Fitz and I'll take that into consideration. Your thoughts on KidAmn would be much appreciated as well.

@Creature - can you do one of striked-out lists showing who you townread and who you suspect? Why do you want to end the day early when the last time you did it in Mini 1843 for D5 and D6, town lost? You don't look like you have the game figured out so help me out here.

nka says kop is worth looking at anyway tbh
so i mean, my townread of him is gone. lurking is nai, and he hasnt sufficiently earned his townread. the dead townie was suspicious of him and well, caught a case of death, so its worth watching kops slot atm

[cassielle]

Cass & Hawk interactions:

While I'm wary of Cass, I think 1398 showed pride in having "correctly" read Hawk as town - and it's true, she did townread Hawk since replacing in. I don't think it was an entirely unreasonable read. Hawk made some very good, introspective, reflective posts. I do want to know why vote Hawk over Kop if you were so sure that I was scum and I was hard-pushing Hawk. You never wondered that I might be scum partnered with Kop and was pushing Hawk as a counterwagon? 660 and 865 looked like town genuinely having a townread. My biggest concern with Cass is that she reminds me a lot of how the scumteam in Mini 1843 (Cloudkicker, MariaR, and Sotty7) played. There were a ton of over-the-top genuine-sounding interactions and hard-defending. If Cass is from Epic-Mafia, I'd be fairly confident she's scum, otherwise leaning town but somewhat of a tossup. I'll have to come back to this as I'm mostly dismissing her as town for that reaction in twilight.

Summary - There's no way Creature is scum. KidAmn's interactions with Hawk are unremarkable but his posts by itself seem town. Cass is tough to read and I'm setting her aside for later but I'm leaning towards that reaction after Hawk's lynch being slightly town.

i townread kop at that point in time (he felt like lynchbait and casting any suspicion on him at that point /could/ have got his wagon moving) but ive changed my mind now on the basis that i should have made him work for the read (perils of replacing in...), and aubrey nka indicates him (fitz is still better though because fitz reads like scum to begin with and kop with anyone else seems to be a stretch)

and no, ive never even visited epicmafia, and the only experience on ms with a player from that site (that im aware of) was incredibly frustrating (it was similar to how i felt about ooo earlier this dayphase -- and it was a scumslot)

and that reaction was me being frustrated that i tell everyone exactly how things are gonna be and all available signs say: here we go down that road, yall done fucked up EXACTLY the way i described, good job! but the plot-twist in the flip threw me for a loop and i STILL dont see scum in hawks ISO, so for today ill sheep you if you want to push tbh

[cassielle]

alright im just gonna close this case now

there is a reason to say aubrey is confirmed town -- not "pretty much" confirmed town, STRICTLY town

and its fuckin absurd that fitz hasnt gestured at that yet -- it shows beyond a shadow of a doubt he is NOT READING THE GAME -- and particularly (!!!!) not reading the parts which town wants to read because it CONFIRMS SLOTS

what reason? why, this of course:

Spoiler: 0-2 Flips

Aubrey is a

Town 1-shot Paranoid Gun Owner

[/spoiler]

click the button. oh hell ill do it for you:

Aubrey is a

Town 1-shot Paranoid Gun Owner

why would town!fitz express ANY DOUBT AT ALL (e.g. "pretty much") about aubreys alignment given that flip?
why would town!fitz want a case from ooo on why aubrey was possibly non-town given that he

/scumreads ooo/

and

/aubrey flipped green/

?
why would town!fitz have NOT SEEN the flip?
why would town!fitz who HAD seen the flip

not have pointed at it

as "UHHHH i dont know why youre questioning me here are you sure youre town" -- especially given

/he already scumreads ooo/

?

ill spare you all the trouble: this requires a major suspension of disbelief to buy into
we have to assume that fitz hasnt paid any attention to the game except when people poke at his slot
we have to assume he treats aubrey mostly as conftown on D2 WITHOUT HAVING SEEN THE FLIP
we have to assume that fitz still has at least the tiniest bit of doubt of the /mod's information/ in a /non-bastard game/
and we have to assume he doesnt want to push his scumread on what outwardly appears to be a clear violation of common sense

look at scum!fitz on the other hand
1: knows player alignments, doesnt need to "really" read, just to bullshit well enough to avoid real suspicion -- so why check the flip? he already knows who died and their alignment
2: the above means that he could quite possibly have seen ooo's post and wondered if the mod actually posted a full flip for aubrey, and played it off like this wasnt potentially the case
3: scum!fitz has a vested interest in causing confusion, and ooo making a case for non-town!aubrey will let him point at ooo as obvscum despite him being the one to cause this situation
4: scum!fitz is happy with any mislynch, so pushing hard on ooo isnt necessarily good for his wincon -- what if a second mislynch comes down the pipe?

fitz is scum. lynch this slot

[cassielle]

I just offered myself being lynched over a townie so Rels can what??? "get towncredit"? (when me - Rels interaction caused the whole thing in the first place). I am sorry, smart mafia teams do not do that. Especially when it would leave 1 mafia alive which has a chance of instantly losing the game if you shoot the wrong person.. They just simply agree to lynch the townie.

I cannot disagree with any of this. Bussing in this format is basically good as suicide to lose the game. Not even bussing on day one.

I don't think OoO is scum in this scenario as I suspect Rels more.

it was less "i seriously emphatically believe you and rels are the scumteam" and more "wifom is involved and nothing said 'serious push' to me between your two slots, so it is still a possibility"

as ive said multiple times: distancing is not bussing. it can become bussing, but it isnt

in case most people dont get it: distancing is more like a low-key scumread, acting suspicious of your partner for most of the game but always finding a better lynch, etc. if you do push its boneless and yo udont keep pushing after the initial vote. you intentionally let it fall flat
its never enough to scumhunt with by itself (because town does that sort of thing with low-confidence scumreads for example), but it's indicative IF you already have reason to scumread both people imo
which i think is an important set of heuristics to learn -- how to choose the best lynch out of a handful of scumreads, how to doublecheck your reads to see if they can be scum together, etc.

[cassielle]

ok heres the issue with talking about pre-flip confirmation???
theres no such beast in this setup

scum can still (STILL) bus when they feel the situation is non-survivable for their fellow scum. it sucks for them, but it means the longer the game goes on the more scumread they get if they dont do it -- eventually theyre trading a POSSIBLE loss by PGO activation for a CERTAIN loss by PoE. a balancing act must be played by them

ftr @ooo, that does mean that both scum can be on the scum wagon, look for the last minute sudden-changes-of-heart first thing if you want to find that imo

and that means that the whole talk about pre-flip aubrey's alignment is bunk and poo because your main contention is--

wait
i just looked and uh
YOU DONT HAVE A MAIN FUCKING CONTENTION

your pre-flip townconfirmation of aubrey is literally an empty assertion, you say it is so but you have offered nothing at all to back it up you just like wave at wagon changes and "mumble mumble THEREFORE CONFTOWN"

you dont even point out what changes? why they indicate town!aubrey pre-flip? anything?

put your thoughts down in excessive detail or cede the field imo, because youve just been talking in circles

that and producing content-free counterarguments while hiding the fact that theyre empty and weightless behind wallposts of meaningless filler, anyway

[cassielle]

I prefer hapahauli way more than havingfitz.

why

[cassielle]

havingfitz seemed bad, but I'm not certain he's scum.

hapahauli I'm somewhat certain, he's pretty under the radar and seems happy with havingfitz' lynch.

in a town!hapa world he would be happy too so that feels NAI
but the under the radar bit is noted.

fitz feels more likely to get traction unless bv puts his foot down though and fitz flip prob tells us hapas alignment, i think theyre never the same faction tbh

[cassielle]

cassie...your post 1783 seems like you are saying I am scum because I do not realize (post flip) that Aubrey is town. You even provide links to the mod's reveals. How you can make that point against me when no where do I insinuate I do not know (today on D2) that Aubrey is confimred town by virtue of his flip and subsequent town status.

You are using Aubrey's flip as a negative towards comments I am making to OoO that are not meant to factor in Aubrey's ACTUAL flip. You say it indicates that I "AM NOT READING THE GAME".

You should actually be ashamed of yourself for bringing this hypothesis even up for consideration.

To insinuate I did not realize Aubrey's alignment was know when D2 started is completely absurd.

I do not see how you can push such a theory.

because i didnt think you would even start talking about pre-flip for reasons mentioned in my last post aimed at you, skipping the flip seemed much more likely

now that i know youre on some crazy tangent with ooo, i posted an updated reply -- and you completely dodged it so you could aim ad hominem at me instead of providing new information for consideration (proof bolded)

well done. now that youve gotten your mockery in (which is something you said was scummy about ooo, you really are hypocritical in how you play yknow) you can maybe read 1797 and give me answers

[cassielle]

1795*** sorry

[cassielle]

so you could aim ad hominem

Saying you should be ashamed of yourself is an ad hom? That's pretty thin skinned. Wait...is that an ad hom too?

ad hominem: attacking the person, not the argument
or in this: attacking the player, not their play
(there are a few times where a player's personal skill (good or bad) comes up in mafia as something potentially AI, but you can always find a way to say it that isnt attacking the player. you werent saying anything about my alignment there so that doesnt work as a defense)

but gj, once again you manage to deflect from the post i made in 1795
its almost like you have no sufficiently townie response to 1795

just in case you missed it this is 1795:1795

[cassielle]

Okay, so hapahauli just replaced into another game. That pretty much confirms that he's scum and his excuses for being busy are a load of bullshit.

Can someone please take Fitz off of L-1 and lynch Hap? We can revisit Fitz tomorrow.

since kidamn voted, ill just call intent to hammer regardless of which of those wagons its for
UNVOTE:

both are good lynches in different ways. fitz is the better one but hapa's flip is, i think, indicative of fitz's alignment. so we indirectly catch scum on a town!hapa flip and we get a near-confirmed townie on a scum!hapa flip

i think hapa is indicative of fitz's alignment because fitz was pushing hapa for a lynch before i even replaced in on d1, and that wagon had momentum. no brakes were applied and requests for more votes were made -- scum wouldnt unprovoked-hard-bus that sort of way in this setup, but fitz has been a lot more cautious on most other wagons to come up

the opposite (fitz being alignment indicative for hapa) is NOT necessarily true i think (it would narrow possible worlds down more, however -- scum!fitz has two possible teams, scum!hapa has three)

p-edit damnit hammer

[cassielle]

my vote was on the fitz wagon so its still hammer. seeya next dayphase

[cassielle]

I really do want to know how Cass winded up on the Fitz wagon after having Hap as such a confident scumread D1. Hap/Hawk interactions actually sealed it rather than be cause for doubt.

honestly, hap stopped posting and fitz kept posting and kept digging himself a nice little hole as he posted
combined with the nka, the support for the lynch, and the information a fitz flip provides in terms of narrowing down the gamestate, it was a really good lynch imo

hapa flip will make or break it (and im p certain hapa=scum after his post-lynch post, so fitz is probtown)

[cassielle]

Should I say who is it?

yes just in case youre nk imo

[cassielle]

explain?

[cassielle]

i dont see a scum!momo world as very likely, yeah

ooo is a big possibility, he never pushed hapa hard enough
rels could be scum with hapa still, but possibility decreasing
kidamn also, but further decreased (hes either scum or paranoid town, but town is naturally paranoid so the odds are more in favor of town!him than it sounds)

p much no one els eis scum with hawk and hapa. one or the other, sure, both never

like, im pretty sure fitz is town now, scum!fitz doesnt push hapa like that in the early game unless hes on some insane WIFOM shit
bv is never scum
im town (obv)
creature is townie-ish (rather: hes not his usual town self but hes never scum with those flips)
kop is town from hapas push on him

[cassielle]

Yeah, 1425 pinged me slightly when I read it but for different reasons. Telling Cass she was disruptive because she was pushing me before Hawk's flip feels manipulative given Cass wouldn't know that I had led a lynch on mafia and would just be arguing for what she thought was best.

its my experience that near-deadline switches onto a wagon that wasnt getting much traction before are very often mislynches
and its my experience that scum can pull that crap on d1 especially easily because no one has hard evidence

so in general i prefer to agree on a lynch d1 at about midday and then continue to scumhunt. d2 lynches are much easier to agree on like that because theres no shade being thrown about that d1 wagon, but you get the same amount of AI discussion and a lot of work on theory and attempting to gamesolve

given my experience your wagon on hawk was the worst wagon possible: mere hours till deadline, not very many online, stonewalling the obvious lynch, begging people to put votes down on hawk

so it was insanely good play on your part to hit that, yeah, and that makes that sort of lynch hitting scum very possible. i dont ever assume insanely good play, i assume merely average or below. thats why i reacted that way

[cassielle]

so i guess what i mean is: for the average player, your play was godawful there. for a really good player, it was the right move

and that shows

[cassielle]

also interesting:

if ooo ends up red d3, it will be the third game on this site where only scum have said that my posts make no sense

3/4 is a good track record when it comes to choosing an early target, i might keep it

[cassielle]

also interesting:

if ooo ends up red d3, it will be the third game on this site where only scum have said that my posts make no sense

3/4 is a good track record when it comes to choosing an early target, i might keep it

lol I also said that p:

nah you said the reasoning doesnt make sense, very different

one says the content is flawed
the other says the presentation is flawed

scum are appearance-conscious by nature, arguably thatd be the source of the tell

[cassielle]

TBH your style is effective at getting reaction.

thats /precisely/ why i use it

i get good reads from people reacting to me. watching them react to each other is also instructive, but watching them react to me is far moreso. i can tailor a post to get a certain kind of reaction, and i can tell if theyre going off of gut, going off of considered thought, or going off of pre-existing knowledge given enough of that

ive been slow to really grill the hell out of slots this game though, so my reads are all over the fucking place
things for me to improve upon in the future

[cassielle]

I must say i find it weird havingfitz treats me and hapa very differently when we both call him out for the same post of his.

there is no way hapa/fitz is a team

fitz was one of the first people to seriously push hapa hard, he made a big damn case about it and all

if youre scum you could at least try distracting town by way of reality instead of ridiculous nonsense
if youre town youre confbiased to the point of near uselessness

[cassielle]

hapa can be scum with ooo and rels

idk about doom/momo slot, whys creature questioning it?

im p sure fitz is just badtown, much as i hate to admit it

[cassielle]

creature/bv, talk to me about doom/momo because i dont get it

[cassielle]

Mine comes down to the fact that Doom's treatment of the Hap wagon was somewhat similar to Hawk's. He voted ounterwagons to Hap while calling Hap scum. See 678 and 807.

i literally did the same thing, and we cant both be scum
that doesnt feel good enough to me

[cassielle]

what a mess to catch up on

ooo is probscum, rels case is convincing and ooo's logic is poor and full of ad hominem and outright insults and vitriol (which he had ditched for d2 when it started to get him scumreads, check the timing)

is ooo isnt scum its prob rels

kidamn possible but unlikely

[cassielle]

I would shoot BlackVoid.

i get the reasoning but it killed my townread of this slot? like yeah, you shoot BV because hes never gettin lynched but if you shoot BV you take out the town motivator of the moment and hes lynched two scum. for him to risk that kind of bus hed have to be ultraconfident he can make it through days and days of mislynches after his buddies are dead, AND not get hit with an armed PGO

he threw the game unless he can make it to 3-slot LyLo put simply

so....momos probscum imo.

ooo or rels as backups, i think ooo is prob a good enough scum player to have highly convincing town reactions
kidamn is also a "maybe" suddenly. it's in the way he asked fitz to claim mostly -- all roles are known and mafia will NEVER claim anything but PGO. fitz outed that he was still able to arm -- could kidamn have been fishing for that? idk, its a weak case but it might end up being worthwhile?

dont get the fitz shits but idk maybe i need to reread. the "winning" part for me was that fitz/hapa did not read like scum theater, felt more like SvT -- hapa p much shouted him off stage and he went lurkmode.

as for me lurking, ive been semi-wrong once and totally wrong once thus far. its clear that trying to lead town is not helpful when they got you BV, so im sheeping you p much unconditionally and just posting my input on the situation until you pick your fav target of the day

[cassielle]

What I am saying is that if I was scum I would shoot BV.

I mean why not???

He is strong town, will not get lynched, and will lynch scum.

So if I was scum, I would take out BlackVoid.

shit my bad

misread, thought popcorn on dayvig thing was going on

alright so scratch that part. still feeling ooo/rels

[cassielle]

Fitz's posts seemed somewhat genuine actually but this is really difficult to make a call on.

@Cass, was there a towngame of yours in the past where you just decide to sheep a townread just because you were wrong before?

Also, can you describe your scumplay? How good would you say you are? Do you win often? Can you link me to your homesite so I can look through a few games?

in order: no, but ive been wrong a LOT the past few days, in multiple games. i dont trust my play anymore
my scumplay is coasty, so i guess im playing to my scum meta unintentionally.
i usually won but its just because i coasted and the rest of the team tried crazy manipulation shit (and my old site was very laid back meta, so going loud got you lynched)
and no. i wont link to my home site because of bad blood that caused me to leave there a few years back. its still volatile and i dont need to suddenly have it blow back up

iirc we havent mislynched even once though so if you need to lynch me to continue without paranoia go for it

[cassielle]

EBWOP mostly for the sake of mod sanity:

its good for my wincon to get lynched if its necessary rn
we can afford it (no mls to date) and im not helping town out a whole hell of a lot atm
one green flip wont hurt the game, just changes from a town clean sweep to a town win with one mislynch, im not super concerned by it and because it narrows down to playing field, concentrates active slots in the thread and reduces the number of suspect individuals, overall i feel that -- if bv has doubts -- taking one for the team is pro-town here

[cassielle]

outoforder recently purchased mining equipment on the grey market
he had to sell his towncred to finance that hole hes been digging today

rels is the more likely to be town of ooo/rels