Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

[Creature]

idk, been trying to solve the game earlier, let me quote some posts there.

[Creature]

VOTE: Aubrey

Aubrey's giving the most scum impression so far.

outoforder, Rels, doomfeathers.

Let's fuse together to powertown this game.

So far Aubrey looks more likely scum.

hapahauli can be scum too.

Aubrey looks like low-hanging scum. And he isn't low-hanging as town.

doomfeathers is probably his typical Open 658.

[Creature]

Still haven't hyperposted because I'm sorta lacking interess right now.

[cassielle]

first two is too early to take town!Creature seriously
the powertown posts felt forced af
181-187 feel like town creature but NOTHING ELSE in your iso does

and i mean you /are/ aware of your meta so
i think you can fake a couple town!Creature posts

[Creature]

I can fake posts like townblocks because I can just say it rather than express. Though, I can't fake expressions.

[Creature]

And there's a clear difference between me lurking as scum and me lurking as town because of disinteress.

[cassielle]

And there's a clear difference between me lurking as scum and me lurking as town because of disinteress.

cant see it

besides: lets make it interesting then
whats your read on me?

[Aubrey]

To be blunt, I wouldn't shed a tear if Creature got lynched as of right now. the lurking is bad for town. The disinterest is bad for town. His attempts at figuring out the game aren't that great imo. It's just a boring slot. Glad he likes me, but...get a grip and actually care dude. Both he and Kop are just enigmas to me.

[cassielle]

he doesnt care im p sure

hed still be lurky-looking as town and hard to sort without resorting to meta (which i hate), but theres a method to reading him that ive slowly learned and this isnt any town!Creature i know

what about you, why are you on the wagon youre pushing?
convince me

[Aubrey]

Hapa is at L3. Kop is at L4. I don't have one in particluar I care more for. Unless something interesting happens, I think these are our two lynch candidates.

VOTE: kop

--

Pre edit: I'll give you the rundown of my votes. I originally voted fitz. His opening reminded me of scum trying to seem protown by asking un-important questions. Shortly after he went in VLA. I was unsatisfied and remained on my vote while contributing to the town with my thoughts. Upon his arrival he made a very long and unimpressive attack on me imo. For reasons that I've mentioned I started to doubt my read a bit. I'm still "eh" with him, but I'm in doubt now. Figure I'll wait, and see how he progresses. My next vote was on Hawk. Ultimately it was due to a miscommunication error more than likely. Now my vote is where you see it.

This rundown is only in regards to my votes and not my full set of thoughts and reads. As you finish reading the thread, those will become clear to you.

[doomfeathers]

Welcome to the game, casielle! I'd give you suggestions to watch out for, but it's pretty much the whole player list.

i dont do townblocks and i dont do vengeance and i def dont do buddies

talk to me with content not buddying

I like you already.

i like slower because i want people to tell me what they want me to take stances on, it tells me how to read /them/ and when i catch up in context im that much stronger of a player

I could see this from either town or scum. At first I thought it was scummy; I thought it looked as if cassie was letting other people pick her fights for her, letting her out of doing real work. But it could also be risky as scum if asked to analyze a partner, and it would also eliminate the option of just starting a non-viable wagon for the purpose of appearing to be doing something. Sure, she could still do it, but if she has to work on the major wagons as well, it no longer has purpose.

Well that sure killed the funny over dramatic story I had planed out.

You're no longer of any interest to me

.

Your slot isn't much to talk about either.

It'll be more interesting once you get caught up and engage with the town. ps

"

bestie

"

you might consider catching up faster than slower.

also this post is full of pointless shadethrowing, in bold, for not wanting to play silly games with them in place of getting AI content
someone who townreads aubrey, i would like you to defend this behavior

ftr idc about aubrey defending it to me because afaiac thats always going to be NAI
defending it to people who already townread them is more likely to give me something i can build a good read on

He's obviously just messing around. He's not going to try to get you scumread for that.

By all means explain how it was disjointed. Pretty sure my dots were connected. Furthermore I Lovvvve how Hapa is completly fine in your books, yet I'm still scum. Unless you forgot, he had the exact same thoughts as I did, and in a perfect world should still be receiving your suspicions.

I'd just like to interject that similar reads are not necessarily a basis for being on the same team. Tone and line of reasoning are also important. Yes, I know it's not my argument.

[cassielle]

Hapa is at L3. Kop is at L4. I don't have one in particluar I care more for. Unless something interesting happens, I think these are our two lynch candidates.

VOTE: kop

--

Pre edit: I'll give you the rundown of my votes. I originally voted fitz. His opening reminded me of scum trying to seem protown by asking un-important questions. Shortly after he went in VLA. I was unsatisfied and remained on my vote while contributing to the town with my thoughts. Upon his arrival he made a very long and unimpressive attack on me imo. For reasons that I've mentioned I started to doubt my read a bit. I'm still "eh" with him, but I'm in doubt now. Figure I'll wait, and see how he progresses. My next vote was on Hawk. Ultimately it was due to a miscommunication error more than likely. Now my vote is where you see it.

This rundown is only in regards to my votes and not my full set of thoughts and reads. As you finish reading the thread, those will become clear to you.

why you place your votes in a given place is more telling than reads tbh
town thinks about where their votes are, scum just wants a mislynch or (occasionally) to bus, so scum has to make shit up when called on it
meanwhile reads are just as often based on gut as they are on logic or heuristics

this is a good explanation

[cassielle]

Welcome to the game, casielle! I'd give you suggestions to watch out for, but it's pretty much the whole player list.

i dont do townblocks and i dont do vengeance and i def dont do buddies

talk to me with content not buddying

I like you already.

i like slower because i want people to tell me what they want me to take stances on, it tells me how to read /them/ and when i catch up in context im that much stronger of a player

I could see this from either town or scum. At first I thought it was scummy; I thought it looked as if cassie was letting other people pick her fights for her, letting her out of doing real work. But it could also be risky as scum if asked to analyze a partner, and it would also eliminate the option of just starting a non-viable wagon for the purpose of appearing to be doing something. Sure, she could still do it, but if she has to work on the major wagons as well, it no longer has purpose.

Well that sure killed the funny over dramatic story I had planed out.

You're no longer of any interest to me

.

Your slot isn't much to talk about either.

It'll be more interesting once you get caught up and engage with the town. ps

"

bestie

"

you might consider catching up faster than slower.

also this post is full of pointless shadethrowing, in bold, for not wanting to play silly games with them in place of getting AI content
someone who townreads aubrey, i would like you to defend this behavior

ftr idc about aubrey defending it to me because afaiac thats always going to be NAI
defending it to people who already townread them is more likely to give me something i can build a good read on

He's obviously just messing around. He's not going to try to get you scumread for that.

By all means explain how it was disjointed. Pretty sure my dots were connected. Furthermore I Lovvvve how Hapa is completly fine in your books, yet I'm still scum. Unless you forgot, he had the exact same thoughts as I did, and in a perfect world should still be receiving your suspicions.

I'd just like to interject that similar reads are not necessarily a basis for being on the same team. Tone and line of reasoning are also important. Yes, I know it's not my argument.

ftr: i never claimed he was going to scumread me for it, i was applying very light (i didnt even vote) pressure and watching the resulting wriggling
it was boring, so i ignored it and moved on, so i could go back to it later if necessary. seems unnecessary now so i got no problem talking about it

scum never clone reads in an AI way in my experience, its way too obvious and too-scummy-to-be-scum doesnt even work with it. town does that "let me just pull someone elses readslist" thing as often as scum does and for broadly similar reasons (not wanting to read, inability to decide wrt certain slots, etc) and no one gets away with it without pressure that scum would rather avoid

scum readslists tend to have obvtown slots agreed on but everything below that is all weird and twisted up into a mess with thin reasoning. they gutread their townleans, focus on slips for their scumreads, and generally just seem to forget that town is ALWAYS scummy, scum is sometimes townie. makes it hard to spot because town does the same thing, but i generally get an uneasy feeling from a scum readslist, like they read a broadly similar game where all the small details got switched around

i didnt like you talking mechanics the way you did but it felt like town flubbing it instead of scum gambiting and your slot's recovered well imo

why is your vote where it is at?

[doomfeathers]

Spoiler: Reply to Kop

@Kop: You appear to me to be wondering why I analyzed your catchup. If you missed it, Hawk asked me to do so, so I'd appreciate if you'd stop trying to make it sound as if I'm just digging through whatever you write looking for the least excuse to call you scummy. Thanks!

I've had to adjust quote features because some how Doom derped the quote tags and knacked it up in post 540.

Sorry about that. I'll make sure to check my post previews in the future.

That really doesn't satisfy Aubrey's objection. Pointing out the reasons for the read is irrelevant if Aubrey just said that scum could easily use those reasons for a townread.

How much more do you want me to rewash all of that read and post it? Your still pushing this case, where as Aubrey hasn't commented anymore about it. Why are you regurgitating the same point over and over again? If Aubrey wasn't still satisfied about what I said about it, it's HIS prerogative to push it more, it just feels your latching onto a small point and hoping to shape the whole suspicion around. I can't say anymore to the reason why I'm currently town reading Aubrey other than what I've already said. I don't know how much more detail you'd like me to go into.

I'm investigating you. If I see faulty logic, I point it out. I don't care if someone else originally asked the question. I've demonstrated this repeatedly, much to Aubrey's chagrin.

That comment from a previous game means nothing. Everybody makes comments like that. Claiming that this one doesn't mean anything in particular proves nothing. Maybe it's a slip, or maybe it's not; in any case, Kop's kind of biased. It feels to me like Kop might be scum trying to draw a false parallel to equate his (previous) townie and (current) scum play; it's not strong evidence, though.

It's not a slip, your trying to paint it that you'd hope it would be a slip. To be quite frank, it's mountains out of molehills, throwing shit in hope something will stick.

If everybody makes comments like that, then why are you still throwing it up, and saying it could be a slip or not?

I specifically stated that I wasn't commenting on the slip. That's what's meant by "maybe it's a slip, or maybe it's not." I was commenting on your reply to the criticism of the alleged slip.

So he's got possible scum evidence against me, but hasn't either voted me or voted someone else whom he considers a stronger scumread--and this after, as someone pointed out, scolding people for not voting suspects in post 125.

Seriously, I mean seriously. Your basing my questioning your vote and reasons for that vote, is scum evidence? The whole point of me asking all of what I did was to try locate your mindset in the whole thing towards fitz. It was NAI to what you were doing because the game is all about paranoia, I wanted to push you further into giving more detail to what you were aiming for, because you said one thing, then flipped it all round later with a vote without giving anything away to what changed, and that's why I questioned it, it doesn't necessarily say that it's evidence that your scum.

It's like me calling Aubrey town, then going on to voting him without physically stating I'm scum reading him, or even giving anything away. I'm sure there would be people questioning why I'm voting for someone I'm thinking is town without giving a good enough reason for my vote going there.

If you believe this case is better than anything else that's within this thread, then it's weak because your going after low hanging fruit based on not a great deal of information.

I mean look at your case notes:

-Meta reading on Aubrey
-Possible slip, possible not
-Lack of vote

Is there anything else you want to add to that list?

Lack of vote is the exact reason I'm voting you. You haven't voted once since RVS, even though you have pointed out several things you said might be scummy, and talked about how townies should vote their scumreads. I'm not saying your criticism of me is scummy. I'm saying your criticism of a lot of people, including me, without ever voting one of them is scummy. That's pretty much my whole case on you right there, though I have a lot of gut to back it up. So no, don't add anything to the list; just remove the first two points. They are neither strongly AI nor my reasons for scumreading you.

I like your new avatar, though.

[cassielle]

thats thin reasoning

1 act (even if it is a consistent one) is not enough to lynchvote someone. pressurevote, ok. but. but, town could easily be in a state where theyre uneasy throwing votes around in case scum push the wagon home on a ML and theyre not confident enough to single out a read and say "this is the one". among other things

im not defending the slot, im saying your vote has poor justification. you should remedy that and build a better case imo... although kop's slot has pretty small amounts of meaningful content to read, so it might not be possible

either way i prefer other wagons for today. for instance i am pretty sure creature is bussing hapa atm: its a classic scum-location on the wagon, a poor push with no attempts at town!Creature's usual laconic wagon pushing, and creature didnt even skim to see nothing had changed since the last vc (just a page ago, 2 pages now) which shows a bit more than simple disinterest (which is itself a light scumtell for Creature anyway)

i want to push the hapa wagon but id rather push the creature wagon for d1 because i think we get more out of letting hapa have rope to lynch himself with d2 atm
and im unconvinced on kop atm, tho i think i could be persuaded to change my mind. either way i dont like that wagon, feels like lynchbait

[doomfeathers]

so no one wants me to take a stance on specific things that have happened in the game thus far?

I've been wagoning Kop and throwing suspicion at havingfitz. Got thoughts on them?

i want people to defend their votes to me

Kop has coasted a lot, but more importantly refuses to vote anyone despite having scolded somebody earlier for not voting suspicions. I'm still trying to figure out his possible motive, but he basically told us to scumread him.

idk, I'm hesitating to vote hapahauli because I don't want accidental hammers and I'm sorta lazy to count votes.

Wow. That is lazy. No offense.

I think I've ben mislynched twice in all the years I've played this game. Rels and OoO haven't mislynched me ever in particular, and barely anyone actually has.

Sweet glory. On one hand, he just implied that, if he's getting lynched, he's probably scum. On the other hand, would scum be so careless as to say that, since they tend to be worried more than townies about how they're perceived. Anyone have thoughts on this?

Let's get real. Day 1's are usually shit and town gets lynched. Mostly because people come at this game looking for some super logical explanation.

Huh. I have no idea what else to look for. Could you give me some idea?

[cassielle]

so no one wants me to take a stance on specific things that have happened in the game thus far?

I've been wagoning Kop and throwing suspicion at havingfitz. Got thoughts on them?

no. feel coasty/lurky, too little for me to grab onto and shake properly, but lurking is NAI

i want people to defend their votes to me

Kop has coasted a lot, but more importantly refuses to vote anyone despite having scolded somebody earlier for not voting suspicions. I'm still trying to figure out his possible motive, but he basically told us to scumread him.

yes got that vibe but that feels like frustrated town not scum to me atm. again open to changing mind but not seeing it yet

idk, I'm hesitating to vote hapahauli because I don't want accidental hammers and I'm sorta lazy to count votes.

Wow. That is lazy. No offense.

this is one reason why i want him out d1

I think I've ben mislynched twice in all the years I've played this game. Rels and OoO haven't mislynched me ever in particular, and barely anyone actually has.

Sweet glory. On one hand, he just implied that, if he's getting lynched, he's probably scum. On the other hand, would scum be so careless as to say that, since they tend to be worried more than townies about how they're perceived. Anyone have thoughts on this?

WIFOM, could be arrogant/frustrated town or gambiting/dumb scum, ignore

[cassielle]

ftr town motivation from hapa in that statement: angry and wants to throw shade at people (sort of indirect ad hom -- "if youre voting me to lynch today you are the dumbest townies i ever played with") to get them off of a ml wagon
bad play but not strictly scummy
scum motivation: hoping town would think scum would never ever say this, not watching their words and flubbing it, same exact motivation as townie one (but with vehemence being due to wincon instead of arrogance)

so yeah ignore that statement its WIFOM at best and NAI at worst

[doomfeathers]

Interesting.

You talk as one experienced. You have posted in six threads, five of which were games, and only one of which was a queue. Are you an alt?

I'll rethink my case on Kop, but I'm not willing to switch my vote yet.

@Kop: Why do you refuse to vote?

either way i prefer other wagons for today. for instance i am pretty sure creature is bussing hapa atm: its a classic scum-location on the wagon, a poor push with no attempts at town!Creature's usual laconic wagon pushing, and creature didnt even skim to see nothing had changed since the last vc (just a page ago, 2 pages now) which shows a bit more than simple disinterest (which is itself a light scumtell for Creature anyway)

i want to push the hapa wagon but id rather push the creature wagon for d1 because i think we get more out of letting hapa have rope to lynch himself with d2 atm
and im unconvinced on kop atm, tho i think i could be persuaded to change my mind. either way i dont like that wagon, feels like lynchbait

Hm. It appears from 207 that hapa was investigating fitz while fitz was investigating Creature. Hapa interacted very little with Creature at first, just posting very briefly to defend himself against Creature's scumread on him in 275. He scumread KidAmn in what could, I suppose, be interpreted as chainsaw defense in 452, and later townread Creature in 455. He got (rather unreasonably, I thought) rather upset with Aubrey over the same case with KidAmn vs. Creature in 590, then took a shot at Creature for not explaining his vote on hapa in 578; now that I notice it, Creature hasn't stated any reason to scumread hapahauli except in 281 where he said hapa wasn't "showing his potential". I can see Creature bussing hapahauli.

I don't know why, but cass's posting seems townish to me.

[cassielle]

i have offsite experience (not a ton but enough) and ive read a lot of games, both in realtime and otherwise

im not an alt, but i am (i guess, in a sense) experienced, i just havent been drowned in site meta much so occasionally i come off the opposite (noob)

i dont usually like pre-flip associatives unless i scumread all slots involved, and then its to say "and which one of these is the best for today", but heres the gist of where that goes:
hapa is active, not making a very good showing for himself, and generally stinks of scumplay
creature is lurky, pushing other folks wagons with no original reasoning, and playing to his scum meta (which most players here seem unaware of)

this means hapa will not be much harder to point at d2, and creature can probably hide among the townies d2, not to mention that a scum slot defending creature d2 could very well push "lurking is nai" (true but irrelevant) and save his slot from the lynch before we recognized what was happening. on the other hand hapa is so widely scumread that i'd bet even bucks his non-creature partner was already on wagon when creature joined (and that both will be on wagon if hes the lynch du jour)

i scumread them both, and creature and hapa have been distancing in a very artificial way (as you yourself noticed) from game start, and hapa is getting the short end of the stick there
this tells me hapa is the designated scumteam scapegoat, and that tells me that creature is the one to take out of the two due to the scumteam thinking hes a stronger player for them -- IF my scumreads are both correct.

however, its important to note, i dont think its incredibly super important of the order. id like creature d1 but if he coasts i dont think town suffers much now that ive pointed at why it would be risky, and hapas the easy lynch with scum quite possibly helping push it. my preference for the creature wagon isnt strong, it just exists

[Aubrey]

Let's get real. Day 1's are usually shit and town gets lynched. Mostly because people come at this game looking for some super logical explanation.

Huh. I have no idea what else to look for. Could you give me some idea?

#AubreyRambles #GameMechanicsTalk&Theory #it's1am

Do you seriously think this game is

only

about black and white logical analysis and who can out argue who? This mentality is in part how I won my last game as scum. A majority of the town looked horrible, and basically lynched itself due to inactivity, and arguably due to believing the most logical answers provided sometimes. I was able to basically build myself one hella good piece of impenetrable armor, and secured a win in the end. Now it wasn't a stroll in the park by no means. Finale, i was PRAYINGGGG for Kop (a claimed power-role) to lynch Hawk over me (and he did). Afterwards, He wished he'd listened to his heart instead of his head. However up until finale, nobody suspected me really and I was logically sound. I think only 2 people suspected me, and one of them was dead by the time they really were doing so. Hawk was absolutely shocked I was scum, and Kop had no obvious choice to pick from in the finale.

Feel free to chime in here Hawk and Kop.

--

Now don't get me wrong. Logical analysis and the ability to drive your point is key and important, but there is more to this game than just that. Often good scum will look like the most town read person logically, and all you're doing is missing a small detail/behavior that would point back to a scum mind set. Should you find that detail, then you have to figure out how to sway the town to go against that almost impenetrable armor or sword of logic. Sometimes there won't be a clear answer, and you just have to hope your suspicions led you to the correct conclusion. vise versa, sometimes the most logical answer is the absolute best answer. a game with some many possible variables is hard to approach in just one way. at some point you just have to figure out what you think makes someone scum or town.

One of the hardest things to understand is sometimes, if not usually, Town will appear logically a lot worse than scum will. Considering all the above and that nugget of info, you really gotta start thinking about things beyond just black and white logic. I hope that helps.

[cassielle]

One of the hardest things to understand is sometimes, if not usually, Town will appear logically a lot worse than scum will. Considering all the above and that nugget of info, you really gotta start thinking about things beyond just black and white logic. I hope that helps.

this is the most important thing there is to learn about mafia

town is ALWAYS scummy

[cassielle]

now getting on someones case for bad reasons isnt a bad thing if you know how to do it (i like to think i do)

you just have to make allowances for the fact that you will be SO WRONG more often than not, and get really good at reading peoples tone and actions when you put them through intensive interrogation so that you dont end up tunneling yourself into a corner
also, when to stop pushing is pretty important but i think its secondary to the rest

[havingfitz]

As inferred earlier....I could get behind a Creature wagon. I suspect he and hapa independently of each other but the bussing theory isn't bad. I'm mostly on hapa as it looks to have better traction. If I had to choose I think hapa would be better to keep around as he would be more productive if town or more likely to give reason to suspect if scum.

Not interested in the Kop or KidAmn wagons.
A KidAmn vote somewhere would be nice.
More Moogin would be nice.

[cassielle]

why do you think that hapa is more likely to contribute or self-incriminate?

creature is amazing at scumhunting d2 onward as town -- id sheep town!Creature d2 unquestioningly in fact, and i just dont do that
so why do you think hapa is the better choice here?

i know why /i/ do and that is irrelevant, i want to know why you do