Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

[hapahauli]

Of course all these people can't be mafia. People like Doomfeathers and OoO are probalby town (for reasons I explained before). Creature as well. Fitz seems atleast to be thinking about his read on me, which makes me think I was wrong about him.

But

KidAmn

and

Cassielle

stick out as the mafia on my wagon.

Cassielle

is not considering new information in the thread. She read the thread once, decided I was mafia, and that was that. She has no interest in talking about her read on me, and every interest in repeatedly calling me mafia (to the point that she's calling Creature's vote on me a bus). This is a very strong sign of mafia - she's pushing an agenda and not an actual read. There's no way it's townie confirmation bias, since there's no evidence she actually read my filter other than some throw-away tone read.

KidAmn

is pushing me for reasons that have already been discredited. Again, not considering new information. Pushing an agenda. Etc. Refusal to parse new information goes beyond confirmation bias into a scummy agenda.

What about off your wagon. Who's scum off your wagon. (besides Kop who is still off all wagons!!)

What about this?

Lynching Frederick would be a huge cop out. He's a coinflip lynch and won't be around to defend himself. There are plenty of other people worth lynching and debating over him right now.

Plenty of other people worth debating was who? Fitz and KidDamn? You've given soft townreads to Fitz and Doom now do you're back on KidDamn and FEC's slot which you had said it was a cop out lynch? Cassiele's once through and the scum pick on you is difference enough to push as scum #1?

I get your frustrated but OMGUS cases don't paint you in the best light if you flip town well fuck. :/ Rels do you really think this could be TvT you know Hapa better than me or this possibly TvS?

Yes, my reads evolve with new information. Grass is green. Sky is blue.

Frederick was an inactive lurker for most of the game. I didn't think anything he did was alignment indicative. A lynchbaity type player who was going to be replaced by a more active player later on.

Cassy was the "more active" player who replaced in, and is also probably mafia based on her entrance.

[Rels]

There's no way you think like this as town. You're more interested in calling me mafia than actually finding out what my alignment is.

Calling me your top scumread, and pushing Creature in significant part based on him "bussing me" before I flip is nonsense and scummy bullshit.

VOTE: Cassielle

This is wrong. She pushed Creature for othre reasons and THEN draw associations with you. And at the time of this post she's not scumreading Creature anymore

[Rels]

Cassy is likely town. Hapa might be town

[hapahauli]

Cass's posts have seemed pretty relatable to me, and I think I'm town. I'm townreading her and Aubrey for about the same reasons.

OK that's a start. What posts and opinions in particular?

I doubt Hapa's personal goal is to get lynched. To whoever suggested that.

See I'm in some catch 22 of hell.

I defend myself ---> LOLOL HAPA FLAILING

I call people mafia ---> LOLOL OMGUS WE NO READ UR POSTS U SO MAF

That's misrep. Are you scumreading people for scummy things, or because they're wagoning you? And for the record, I'm not completely convinced you're scum.

No misrep. That's what's going on.
I'm scumreading people for scummy things. If I was scumreading people for calling me mafia, I'd have to call everyone mafia.

And of course any emotions and frustrations I show now are invalid because Rels already called out how "emotionless" my posting is.

Though you're not helping me townread you very much. Ending the pity party would go a long way.

I'd love to talk about scumreads if people want to talk about scumreads. But getting people talking about my cases is like pulling teeth.

[Rels]

UNVOTE: Kop
VOTE: KidDamn
Horrible horrible posts when he was pressured

[Rels]

He's pretty critical of people "coasting", but that's basically what he's doing himself this game. He has 16 posts, most of which were made while defending himself from my early-game push against him. Scum love to criticize town for fucking up, but do nothing themselves to help the situation.

Secondly, probably the most substantial thing he has in his filter deals with his "read" on Creature:

Similarly something feels off to me about Creature - the rather blasé nature of their posting, throwing out town and scum-reads with little to no reasoning (looking at their ISO, their longest post is a whole 3 lines?)... it just comes across as the opposite of "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing" - and certainly not a tale told by an idiot. It's deliberate and I dislike it, but unfortunately it matches up with looking at their posting in a couple of other games I've looked at. Having Allomancer as one of their scumreads despite them being so inactive they've picked up a prod also feels lazy as hell, as if they're covering themselves by saying "I had a scumread on Allomancer" for if/when a "fuck it, get rid of these lurkers" wagon happens.

I've been driving the wife around all day, cut a fella some slack on the meme game.
As for the vote - Honestly, right now I could go for F.E.C. or Creature, but I'm willing to give both a chance to respond (Creature more-so as my issue with him seems to just be

how he plays

). Moogin needs to contribute way more than they have so far, so not disagreeable to putting some pressure there either.

In the first post, he calls Creature mafia for questionable reasons. This isn't inherently scummy - I'd understand why a less experienced townie could call Creature mafia for his posting style.

However the second post is quite scummy.

He mentions supporting a vote on Creature, while giving good reasons to call creature town. He then finishes off by throwing Shade at a 3rd player. It's very hard for me to see this post coming from town.

The thought process of a townie is "I think <player> is mafia, therefore I should vote <player>."
NOT
"<Player> can be town for <reasons>, but I'm cool with voting him anyway."

That's not a town mentality. Town want to lynch players that they're suspicious of, not players who they have reasons to think are NOT suspicious.

There's no mention of why he thinks Creature could be more likely mafia than town. He basically acknowledges that all of his reasons to vote Creature are non alignment indicative, yet he clearly states that he would vote him.

I don't have a ton of time to respond to all this bullshit where Hapahauli runs back to his first scum-reads again to drum up a counter wagon instead of doing anything productive, so I'm just gonna make some things clear:

- I'm "coasting" because I work 50 hours a week in an environment where I don't get to spend my time sat at a desk posting walls of waffle about interactions with players on a completely different site, so yes, my posting is sporadic

- The idea that being willing to give FEC and Creature a chance to respond to my issues is scummy is straight up bullshit. If giving people chances to respond is anti-town and making use of the time the town has to discuss things is anti-town then I want a ticket to whatever bizzaro world you're on. You also conveniently ignore that my issue isn't just with his style of posting, I also referred to the fact that he was throwing out town and scum reads with little reasoning behind them AND him throwing a town read on Allomancer who had done nothing of note all game

- You conveniently ignore that my other scum read at the time (FEC) was solidly based on a series of particularly scummy looking posts

PEDIT - as Doomfeather says you literally do the thing you accuse me of where you call kop scum and then list a bunch of reasons he could be town

In summary, bite my shiny metal ass
VOTE: Hapahauli

Also holy crap responding to all these walls of text is literal dicks on a phone.

Also GRATS HAWK

You call Kop your second strongest read and then follow it with a list of reasons he might not be scum, one of which is his posting style with bigass walls of text catchup, while criticising me for having a weak scum-read on Creature but admitting that part of my issue could just be his posting style

Do you not see the contradiction there

You call Kop your second strongest read and then follow it with a list of reasons he might not be scum, one of which is his posting style with bigass walls of text catchup, while criticising me for having a weak scum-read on Creature but admitting that part of my issue could just be his posting style

Do you not see the contradiction there

Mistype on my part from all these fucking walls of text - should be Fitz
Kop is not my second strongest read. Where do you get that?

Jfc phone posting. Mistype on my part from all these fucking walls of text - should be Fitz.

Point still stands, and calling you out on your bullshit with actual arguments is the opposite of "OMGUS" - the definition of OMGUS is a vote with no real reason other than 'fuck you' although that is basically my thoughts right now

...at this point I'm going to assume you're scum being intentionally dense because nobody can be this goddamn dumb after both doom and I have pointed out the inconsistency to you, so good night.

This whole sequence is awful. So OMGUS. So stretching to scumread Hapa. Then when he comes back to the thread he doesn't try to see that in a new calmer light. He just leaves his vote there and says nothing. Here are his 3 posts since:

You call Kop your second strongest read and then follow it with a list of reasons he might not be scum, one of which is his posting style with bigass walls of text catchup, while criticising me for having a weak scum-read on Creature but admitting that part of my issue could just be his posting style

Do you not see the contradiction there

KidDamn are you saying it's a contradiction because he gave case for both scum and town Kop or are you saying it's a contradiction because you think it's hypocritical line of thinking?

It's hypocritical. It's saying "Kid doing this thing [giving reasons why my read on Creature might not have been the strongest] is bad" and then turning around and calling Fitz (not Kop, that was a mistype on my part) scum but following it up with "but here's a bunch of reasons my read on him isn't as strong as on Kid"

He's Open 658ing.

More meta stuff?? Okay BRB gotta go read another game to get a read on a player this game

Seriously is that the only reason? also if I'm misunderstanding what you are saying let me know.

Open 658 was a game I played in which both Aubrey and Creature also played. I was NKed N1. Havingfitz later replaced in and won as scum with BK201 and Gamma Emerald; I don't believe I ever actually interacted with him that game. Unfortunately, day 1 lasted for 42 pages.

12) Flubbernugget

doomfeathers

lynched day 5 - Vanilla Townie

So you replaced out and your slot died D5 to a lynch. Why exactly would you lie about that?

Not gonna lie my enthusiasm for this game has been fucking tanked by the amount of other games and off-site games and "oh-ho-ho I know what he does because of playing on another site and here is a wall of text about it".

What's more likely here? That I went into this game screaming at my team to bus me? Or that there are quite a few mafia members suspicious of me for super sketchy reasons that don't make sense anymore.

It's very clear that Cassielle is mafia. How she's tunneling me is not confirmation bias. She's suspicious of me because it's the popular thing to do, and never had any interest in figuring out my alignment.

Or you're her strongest scum-read and she wants to get the wagon on you to the end on a long D1. Not to mention that the scum having day-talk makes your first point null and void since as the wagon on you grew you could very easily as scum say to your team "bus me while looking for other wagons we can derail on in case the town can't finish the job here". Also, repeatedly stating "there's no real case on me whaarblgarble ur all trash" does not make this true.

[hapahauli]

VOTE: KidDamn

[doomfeathers]

Hypersensitive?! Do you enjoy being called mafia wrongfully and for shit reasons? I certainly don't.

Secondly, I'm very damn interested in finding scum. Again, my catch 22 of hell applies here.
I defend myself ---> WASTING TIME HAPA
I call mafia ----> (my posts are ignored)
I do nothing ----> HAPA YOU'RE MORE ACTIVE AS TOWN ZOMG

So naturally, I'm super fucking hypersensitive to this, because no matter what I choose, I am read as mafia, and no one takes my cases seriously.

And if you're wondering if you should take me seriously, ask Rels or OoO about my success rate in lynching mafia D1.

I'm trying to have a reasonable conversation here so I can read you. Could you please stop trying to start a flame war?

I'm not ignoring your posts, for crying out loud. Please stop saying I am.

Yes, I am wondering whether I should take you seriously. The reason is that you seem to assume that whoever scumreads you is either an idiot or scum. You don't seem to consider changing your behavior to benefit town; you just keep screaming at whoever so much as points out logic flaws in your posts. If you don't take others seriously, why should they take you seriously? Also, if you don't like pressure, why are you playing Mafia?

[hapahauli]

Also needs to die. Rels #726 makes me think I'm just confirmation baised on Cassy and not reading her carefully enough. Will be back with more on her.

[Rels]

KidDamn
Kop ?
Woonjin ?
Is what I imagine is the team

[Rels]

Kop and Woonjin both had ONE thing I found townie. But multiple things I fuond scummy.

[hapahauli]

@ Doom

@hapahauli: You've grandly missed the point of my scumread on you. I was saying that you've been posting in a way that's full of fluff and pointless arguments, with little memorable content, for a lot of the game so far. Then later, you go crazy defending yourself and do nothing else.

Hapa continues to flail. I agree with Hawk that it's little more than OMGUS. If he's intending to be lynched, he's doing a good job.

@cass (and anyone else who wants to answer): Would Creature as scum continue to bus after the town starts figuring that's what's going on? Would it be too risky for him to stop? I'm almost thinking he would find a reason to retract his vote since completing the bus would only make people more suspicious of him.

Stuff like the bolded is gasoline on a flame war. I defend myself, give opinions on 3 players (including 2 scumreads), and you say I'm wasting time defending myself and not doing anything else. Then I'm "flailing."

I will only respond in hostility to that.

---------------------------------------------

Anyway. Productivity. Do you have a reason not to vote KidDamn?

Also, those posts on Cassy I asked you for before?

[Rels]

Yeah KidDamn is the most liekly to flip scum. So bad

[Rels]

K I'm going to sleep. Gonna be in NZ over the weekend so I might be V/LA, maybe I'll have time to post, maybe not. See you the latest on Monday

[Rels]

No lynch over the week end pretty please. Let's decide that start of the week

[Rels]

we have until tuesday if I got it right

[doomfeathers]

I'd love to talk about scumreads if people want to talk about scumreads. But getting people talking about my cases is like pulling teeth.

I'm paying attention to your reads.

Also needs to die. Rels #726 makes me think I'm just confirmation baised on Cassy and not reading her carefully enough. Will be back with more on her.

Who needs to die?

KidDamn
Kop ?
Woonjin ?
Is what I imagine is the team

Who's Woonjin? Do you mean MooginSoosy?

@ Doom

@hapahauli: You've grandly missed the point of my scumread on you. I was saying that you've been posting in a way that's full of fluff and pointless arguments, with little memorable content, for a lot of the game so far. Then later, you go crazy defending yourself and do nothing else.

Hapa continues to flail. I agree with Hawk that it's little more than OMGUS. If he's intending to be lynched, he's doing a good job.

@cass (and anyone else who wants to answer): Would Creature as scum continue to bus after the town starts figuring that's what's going on? Would it be too risky for him to stop? I'm almost thinking he would find a reason to retract his vote since completing the bus would only make people more suspicious of him.

Stuff like the bolded is gasoline on a flame war. I defend myself, give opinions on 3 players (including 2 scumreads), and you say I'm wasting time defending myself and not doing anything else. Then I'm "flailing."

I will only respond in hostility to that.

I wasn't calling you names or yelling at you. If you have a problem with the term "flailing", I can avoid that, but I'm going to comment on your play as I see it, and post my reasons for scumreading you, especially if you keep asking for them.

Anyway. Productivity. Do you have a reason not to vote KidDamn?

Also, those posts on Cassy I asked you for before?

I'm watching KidAmn. I still think he's most likely lynchbait town for now. I'm getting around to reviewing cassielle; I'm just responding to posts here first.

[Creature]

I won't oppose KidAmn wagon.

[doomfeathers]

It's more of a general thing than a few specific posts, but I grabbed a few from one page. Mostly, it's that her logic makes sense, her posts sound genuine and progress naturally, and she corrects my reads and gives me tips. She's posting in a way that's helpful to town. Scum usually want to distract or to blend in. It's kind of hard to explain and partly gut.

Spoiler: cassie's townie posts

good

i like hungry sharks

they give me lots of good reads

and thanks!

She doesn't mind pressure. This seems townish to me. Scum try to avoid attention.

Cass I know you said it was a quick skim but can you explain those top 3 scum reads for me?

creature is not playing his town meta here, and i have first hand experience with it -- this is an unmotivated fluffposting creature definitely
i dont "do" meta really, but creature's meta is one of those such that breaking it would be like trying to force basic rules of mathematics to change for you

i was sleep deprived and dont really remember my dislike of the moogin slot but i remember i really, really didnt like something i saw. call it a gutread for now

hapa feels like coasting scum, sort of just a tone read, lot of communicating around people and subject dodging

Okay, do you know how I play scum?

ISO inflation

which is all i see tbh

you only seriously answered two or three questions

first two is too early to take town!Creature seriously
the powertown posts felt forced af
181-187 feel like town creature but NOTHING ELSE in your iso does

and i mean you /are/ aware of your meta so
i think you can fake a couple town!Creature posts

Hapa is at L3. Kop is at L4. I don't have one in particluar I care more for. Unless something interesting happens, I think these are our two lynch candidates.

VOTE: kop

--

Pre edit: I'll give you the rundown of my votes. I originally voted fitz. His opening reminded me of scum trying to seem protown by asking un-important questions. Shortly after he went in VLA. I was unsatisfied and remained on my vote while contributing to the town with my thoughts. Upon his arrival he made a very long and unimpressive attack on me imo. For reasons that I've mentioned I started to doubt my read a bit. I'm still "eh" with him, but I'm in doubt now. Figure I'll wait, and see how he progresses. My next vote was on Hawk. Ultimately it was due to a miscommunication error more than likely. Now my vote is where you see it.

This rundown is only in regards to my votes and not my full set of thoughts and reads. As you finish reading the thread, those will become clear to you.

why you place your votes in a given place is more telling than reads tbh
town thinks about where their votes are, scum just wants a mislynch or (occasionally) to bus, so scum has to make shit up when called on it
meanwhile reads are just as often based on gut as they are on logic or heuristics

this is a good explanation

Welcome to the game, casielle! I'd give you suggestions to watch out for, but it's pretty much the whole player list.

i dont do townblocks and i dont do vengeance and i def dont do buddies

talk to me with content not buddying

I like you already.

i like slower because i want people to tell me what they want me to take stances on, it tells me how to read /them/ and when i catch up in context im that much stronger of a player

I could see this from either town or scum. At first I thought it was scummy; I thought it looked as if cassie was letting other people pick her fights for her, letting her out of doing real work. But it could also be risky as scum if asked to analyze a partner, and it would also eliminate the option of just starting a non-viable wagon for the purpose of appearing to be doing something. Sure, she could still do it, but if she has to work on the major wagons as well, it no longer has purpose.

Well that sure killed the funny over dramatic story I had planed out.

You're no longer of any interest to me

.

Your slot isn't much to talk about either.

It'll be more interesting once you get caught up and engage with the town. ps

"

bestie

"

you might consider catching up faster than slower.

also this post is full of pointless shadethrowing, in bold, for not wanting to play silly games with them in place of getting AI content
someone who townreads aubrey, i would like you to defend this behavior

ftr idc about aubrey defending it to me because afaiac thats always going to be NAI
defending it to people who already townread them is more likely to give me something i can build a good read on

He's obviously just messing around. He's not going to try to get you scumread for that.

By all means explain how it was disjointed. Pretty sure my dots were connected. Furthermore I Lovvvve how Hapa is completly fine in your books, yet I'm still scum. Unless you forgot, he had the exact same thoughts as I did, and in a perfect world should still be receiving your suspicions.

I'd just like to interject that similar reads are not necessarily a basis for being on the same team. Tone and line of reasoning are also important. Yes, I know it's not my argument.

ftr: i never claimed he was going to scumread me for it, i was applying very light (i didnt even vote) pressure and watching the resulting wriggling
it was boring, so i ignored it and moved on, so i could go back to it later if necessary. seems unnecessary now so i got no problem talking about it

scum never clone reads in an AI way in my experience, its way too obvious and too-scummy-to-be-scum doesnt even work with it. town does that "let me just pull someone elses readslist" thing as often as scum does and for broadly similar reasons (not wanting to read, inability to decide wrt certain slots, etc) and no one gets away with it without pressure that scum would rather avoid

scum readslists tend to have obvtown slots agreed on but everything below that is all weird and twisted up into a mess with thin reasoning. they gutread their townleans, focus on slips for their scumreads, and generally just seem to forget that town is ALWAYS scummy, scum is sometimes townie. makes it hard to spot because town does the same thing, but i generally get an uneasy feeling from a scum readslist, like they read a broadly similar game where all the small details got switched around

i didnt like you talking mechanics the way you did but it felt like town flubbing it instead of scum gambiting and your slot's recovered well imo

why is your vote where it is at?

thats thin reasoning

1 act (even if it is a consistent one) is not enough to lynchvote someone. pressurevote, ok. but. but, town could easily be in a state where theyre uneasy throwing votes around in case scum push the wagon home on a ML and theyre not confident enough to single out a read and say "this is the one". among other things

im not defending the slot, im saying your vote has poor justification. you should remedy that and build a better case imo... although kop's slot has pretty small amounts of meaningful content to read, so it might not be possible

either way i prefer other wagons for today. for instance i am pretty sure creature is bussing hapa atm: its a classic scum-location on the wagon, a poor push with no attempts at town!Creature's usual laconic wagon pushing, and creature didnt even skim to see nothing had changed since the last vc (just a page ago, 2 pages now) which shows a bit more than simple disinterest (which is itself a light scumtell for Creature anyway)

i want to push the hapa wagon but id rather push the creature wagon for d1 because i think we get more out of letting hapa have rope to lynch himself with d2 atm
and im unconvinced on kop atm, tho i think i could be persuaded to change my mind. either way i dont like that wagon, feels like lynchbait

so no one wants me to take a stance on specific things that have happened in the game thus far?

I've been wagoning Kop and throwing suspicion at havingfitz. Got thoughts on them?

no. feel coasty/lurky, too little for me to grab onto and shake properly, but lurking is NAI

i want people to defend their votes to me

Kop has coasted a lot, but more importantly refuses to vote anyone despite having scolded somebody earlier for not voting suspicions. I'm still trying to figure out his possible motive, but he basically told us to scumread him.

yes got that vibe but that feels like frustrated town not scum to me atm. again open to changing mind but not seeing it yet

idk, I'm hesitating to vote hapahauli because I don't want accidental hammers and I'm sorta lazy to count votes.

Wow. That is lazy. No offense.

this is one reason why i want him out d1

I think I've ben mislynched twice in all the years I've played this game. Rels and OoO haven't mislynched me ever in particular, and barely anyone actually has.

Sweet glory. On one hand, he just implied that, if he's getting lynched, he's probably scum. On the other hand, would scum be so careless as to say that, since they tend to be worried more than townies about how they're perceived. Anyone have thoughts on this?

WIFOM, could be arrogant/frustrated town or gambiting/dumb scum, ignore

ftr town motivation from hapa in that statement: angry and wants to throw shade at people (sort of indirect ad hom -- "if youre voting me to lynch today you are the dumbest townies i ever played with") to get them off of a ml wagon
bad play but not strictly scummy
scum motivation: hoping town would think scum would never ever say this, not watching their words and flubbing it, same exact motivation as townie one (but with vehemence being due to wincon instead of arrogance)

so yeah ignore that statement its WIFOM at best and NAI at worst

i have offsite experience (not a ton but enough) and ive read a lot of games, both in realtime and otherwise

im not an alt, but i am (i guess, in a sense) experienced, i just havent been drowned in site meta much so occasionally i come off the opposite (noob)

i dont usually like pre-flip associatives unless i scumread all slots involved, and then its to say "and which one of these is the best for today", but heres the gist of where that goes:
hapa is active, not making a very good showing for himself, and generally stinks of scumplay
creature is lurky, pushing other folks wagons with no original reasoning, and playing to his scum meta (which most players here seem unaware of)

this means hapa will not be much harder to point at d2, and creature can probably hide among the townies d2, not to mention that a scum slot defending creature d2 could very well push "lurking is nai" (true but irrelevant) and save his slot from the lynch before we recognized what was happening. on the other hand hapa is so widely scumread that i'd bet even bucks his non-creature partner was already on wagon when creature joined (and that both will be on wagon if hes the lynch du jour)

i scumread them both, and creature and hapa have been distancing in a very artificial way (as you yourself noticed) from game start, and hapa is getting the short end of the stick there
this tells me hapa is the designated scumteam scapegoat, and that tells me that creature is the one to take out of the two due to the scumteam thinking hes a stronger player for them -- IF my scumreads are both correct.

however, its important to note, i dont think its incredibly super important of the order. id like creature d1 but if he coasts i dont think town suffers much now that ive pointed at why it would be risky, and hapas the easy lynch with scum quite possibly helping push it. my preference for the creature wagon isnt strong, it just exists

One of the hardest things to understand is sometimes, if not usually, Town will appear logically a lot worse than scum will. Considering all the above and that nugget of info, you really gotta start thinking about things beyond just black and white logic. I hope that helps.

this is the most important thing there is to learn about mafia

town is ALWAYS scummy

now getting on someones case for bad reasons isnt a bad thing if you know how to do it (i like to think i do)

you just have to make allowances for the fact that you will be SO WRONG more often than not, and get really good at reading peoples tone and actions when you put them through intensive interrogation so that you dont end up tunneling yourself into a corner
also, when to stop pushing is pretty important but i think its secondary to the rest

why do you think that hapa is more likely to contribute or self-incriminate?

creature is amazing at scumhunting d2 onward as town -- id sheep town!Creature d2 unquestioningly in fact, and i just dont do that
so why do you think hapa is the better choice here?

i know why /i/ do and that is irrelevant, i want to know why you do

[cassielle]

jfc

ok, when i say a "tone thing" -- im not saying "gutread", im saying "the logic hes using and the things hes doing are fine on their own, but they dont add up with what im seeing"
e.g. i cant point out logical flaws, people who are robots only convinced by logical flaws will be disappointed (and those people exist, i assure you all)

and hes definitely a player focused on appearances -- tho the case vs kidamn is C O N V I N C I N G -- and scum care more about how they look than town, always
(town is almost always going to ML, so they dont mind being the sacrificial lamb if they think it will get everyone to refocus their efforts elsewhere. scum cant afford to be a lynch target unless theyre being bussed and even then its bad)
in this case -- scum want to derail wagons that start on them, not start counterwagons, which is what hapa is doing

(again tho, kidamn is good. also a lurker tho, so im feeling like hes lynchbait and even if he is scum, i want to focus on active players who are causing bad signal first)

effectively, the only town-read i can have on hapa atm would rely on him being a noob. hes not -- joindate 2013.
or really really badtown, which doesnt seem to be the case due to slots that know him talking about him being a good player
or...

ok. im not feeling like nows quite the time to build a detailed wallpost case on him quite yet, i have other things i want to look at first
im spotting things that make me very interested in a great many people
and i think im seeing a third town narrative for hapa that i want to explore

one things for sure, the game activity-spiked like a mofo since ive joined and shaken things up
and that means i am sorting people easily now -- everyone to post in the last two pages except one slot in particular, i have a read on now

[cassielle]

@HAPA

what if i tell you you have been pocketed and one or two of your townreads are scum

who do you pick

[cassielle]

in fact, i think most players here have been taken in by scum if the slots i suspect to be potential scum are in fact just that

everyone, tell me who is the scum laughing to the endgame in /your/ townblock
tell me /why/

[Creature]

Okay, I'm going to call that heat.

[Creature]

There are ice structures (in that case townblock), suddenly an agitation happens and that structures deforms.

[doomfeathers]

scum care more about how they look than town, always
(town is almost always going to ML, so they dont mind being the sacrificial lamb if they think it will get everyone to refocus their efforts elsewhere. scum cant afford to be a lynch target unless theyre being bussed and even then its bad)
in this case -- scum want to derail wagons that start on them, not start counterwagons, which is what hapa is doing

I would disagree. I, as town, would not want to be mislynched, because I know I'm town. If someone else is lynched, there's at least a chance of lynching scum.

Why wouldn't scum start counterwagons? How else would you derail a wagon?

everyone, tell me who is the scum laughing to the endgame in /your/ townblock
tell me /why/

Aubrey and Rels are townreads for me who could possibly turn out to be scum, if that's what you mean. Both seem to be playing to benefit town.