Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

[cassielle]

Hmm, I don't know how to explain Rels.

in my experience that tends to be a sign you missed an important AI post

probably something short, earlier in the game, easily lost among quote-walls and rvs crap

could swing either way but would probably be worth rereading the first four posts in rels's ISO

[hapahauli]

You're showing shockingly little interest in conversing with your top scumread, Cassielle.

[cassielle]

You're showing shockingly little interest in conversing with your top scumread, Cassielle.

instead of throwing shade you should be producing content

instead of throwing shade at /me/ you should be trying to start a counterwagon

gl with that though, youre almost certainly being bussed, i dont think well see a counterwagon from your corner gaining any traction

[hapahauli]

readslist based on a light read under conditions of sleep deprivation

ooo town
doomfeathers town
hawk townie
aubrey nulltown
havingfitz null
kop null
kidamn null
rels nullscum
creature scummy
moogin scum

hapa scum

im not voting yet however
...

No reasons.

...

hapa feels like coasting scum, sort of just a tone read, lot of communicating around people and subject dodging

I "feel" like coasting scum. No justification.

thats thin reasoning

1 act (even if it is a consistent one) is not enough to lynchvote someone. pressurevote, ok. but. but, town could easily be in a state where theyre uneasy throwing votes around in case scum push the wagon home on a ML and theyre not confident enough to single out a read and say "this is the one". among other things

im not defending the slot, im saying your vote has poor justification. you should remedy that and build a better case imo... although kop's slot has pretty small amounts of meaningful content to read, so it might not be possible

either way i prefer other wagons for today. for instance i am pretty sure creature is bussing hapa atm: its a classic scum-location on the wagon, a poor push with no attempts at town!Creature's usual laconic wagon pushing, and creature didnt even skim to see nothing had changed since the last vc (just a page ago, 2 pages now) which shows a bit more than simple disinterest (which is itself a light scumtell for Creature anyway)

i want to push the hapa wagon but id rather push the creature wagon for d1 because i think we get more out of letting hapa have rope to lynch himself with d2 atm
and im unconvinced on kop atm, tho i think i could be persuaded to change my mind. either way i dont like that wagon, feels like lynchbait

Creature is bussing me because (reasons not found).

i have offsite experience (not a ton but enough) and ive read a lot of games, both in realtime and otherwise

im not an alt, but i am (i guess, in a sense) experienced, i just havent been drowned in site meta much so occasionally i come off the opposite (noob)

i dont usually like pre-flip associatives unless i scumread all slots involved, and then its to say "and which one of these is the best for today", but heres the gist of where that goes:
hapa is active, not making a very good showing for himself, and generally stinks of scumplay
creature is lurky, pushing other folks wagons with no original reasoning, and playing to his scum meta (which most players here seem unaware of)

this means hapa will not be much harder to point at d2, and creature can probably hide among the townies d2, not to mention that a scum slot defending creature d2 could very well push "lurking is nai" (true but irrelevant) and save his slot from the lynch before we recognized what was happening. on the other hand hapa is so widely scumread that i'd bet even bucks his non-creature partner was already on wagon when creature joined (and that both will be on wagon if hes the lynch du jour)

i scumread them both, and creature and hapa have been distancing in a very artificial way (as you yourself noticed) from game start, and hapa is getting the short end of the stick there
this tells me hapa is the designated scumteam scapegoat, and that tells me that creature is the one to take out of the two due to the scumteam thinking hes a stronger player for them -- IF my scumreads are both correct.

however, its important to note, i dont think its incredibly super important of the order. id like creature d1 but if he coasts i dont think town suffers much now that ive pointed at why it would be risky, and hapas the easy lynch with scum quite possibly helping push it. my preference for the creature wagon isnt strong, it just exists

Creature is bussing me because (reasons not found).

[hapahauli]

There's no way you think like this as town. You're more interested in calling me mafia than actually finding out what my alignment is.

Calling me your top scumread, and pushing Creature in significant part based on him "bussing me" before I flip is nonsense and scummy bullshit.

VOTE: Cassielle

[doomfeathers]

why do you think that hapa is more likely to contribute or self-incriminate?

creature is amazing at scumhunting d2 onward as town -- id sheep town!Creature d2 unquestioningly in fact, and i just dont do that
so why do you think hapa is the better choice here?

i know why /i/ do and that is irrelevant, i want to know why you do

I thought you said you'd rather lynch Creature first.

[cassielle]

gl with that
theres always a reason to bus.

t o w n c r e d

that is in fact the only reason to ever bus and my scumread of Creature (now on a townread) was independent of yours
so "bussing" fits -- it doesnt tell me who to scumread, it tells me which scumread should take precedence, and if that is a bad way to use a pre-flip associative then we all better pack it up town, scum won, theres no way to tell which scum of the three is the best one and we have been defeated

my reason to scumread you was given: subject-dodging and talking around people instead of to them -- which is whats going on here, ill note. now we can add to that a lot of shadethrowing and blatant misrepresentation (refusal to read between the lines for the bussing stuff, refusal to engage subject at hand (looking into Creature's alignment and reads, which is only helpful to town regardless of your read of the slot), talking around what i said to paint it in your favor -- interesting how old reasons also become new reasons, isnt it? -- more focused on defending your own slot than finding scum, OMGUS with the prior as fuel and no actual scummy behavior to go on top)

ill lynch you in good time friend, settle down now

[cassielle]

why do you think that hapa is more likely to contribute or self-incriminate?

creature is amazing at scumhunting d2 onward as town -- id sheep town!Creature d2 unquestioningly in fact, and i just dont do that
so why do you think hapa is the better choice here?

i know why /i/ do and that is irrelevant, i want to know why you do

I thought you said you'd rather lynch Creature first.

i would have (at the time of that statement)

i ask questions to determine the alignments of multiple slots though, and at that time that question was trying to sort fitz, who i believe to be town now

[cassielle]

oh -- wait, i see

you misunderstood, ha

both myself and fitz were talking about hapa being a better choice to /leave alone for d1/

[Hawk]

Uggghhhh fuck it.

I'm really losing interest in this game because I'm having a hard time not being drawn to my natural tendency to question low activity which in turn usually leads me to looking hypocritical. I told myself I'd try and be less emotional and gut based and try and find scum smartly this time not over activity based NAI Garbo but I'm slowly losing interest.

Kop is coasting and hasn't placed a vote outside of RVS. It feels really off to me especially with all his rebuttals being dismissive and not pushing towards scumhunting himself. This compounded with the fact that his one actual push back against Doom earlier didn't follow up with a vote anywhere really irks me.

KidDamn is in a similar boat for me he's coasting by along with weak cases based off twisted information and hypocrisy.

Creature bugs me because he's been really laid back and almost uninvolved in this game. I read his wiki and apparently this is pair for the course for him. Seems fine I guess if I didn't think meta can easily be manipulated honestly it's what scares me most of all about creature since his "meta" is so indifferent his ability to manipulate is going to be easy to fool. He retorted eariler that he can't fake his "expression". If I'm taking expression to mean reaction on the similar vein that reactions are instantaneous and quick. This is forum Mafia. Anything on an emotional level can be faked by scum if they take the time to do so. Creatures meta being so disinterested d1 makes it easy for him to manipulate and move past that d1 phase by faking his expressions.

Hapa hasn't wowed me with his rebuttals as of late mostly because it continues to be no one has reason to scumlean me and less following up and pressuring his scumreads aka KidDamn and idk who else because idk if he leaned anyone else besides fitz.

Rels and OoO are off playing Mafia on TL forums and responding with meta alignments and indications I wanna vomit at how much all of their case against Hapa initially was noise and I couldn't dig into it myself. (I won't reread previous games to a great length to try and disecting scum and townie behavior as it often can just be a waste of time and I don't really have enough IRL to reread 3+ games per player to dig into their meta, if I know you from a previous game I may already be predisposed by memory but I try and ignore that because human memory is a faulty thing)

Cassiele replaces into a slot with such low quality of play and lack of posts that honestly I want to forget FEC even said anything earlier. I actually took a second since Doom seemed so confident and linked a game of his about how his scum play is garbage and read it. I skimmed I saw he is 14 years old or claims to be and from a quick look has no idea how to play this game and is reeks of newbie so I won't try to evaluate any play of his when he's replacing out due to stress.

Aubrey against my better judgement looks differently from the last game I played with him but his scum game was very good and I heavily townread him early that game as well and I rearly don't want to have a repeat of falling into traps set before. Plus meta is NAI so fuck my head for having a hard time disconnecting last game from this game. Also in response to what Aubrey said about activity. Yeah town self imploded in Tit for Tat 664. One of the reasons I've been very laid back this game is because my play was super sloppy in that game and eventually it led to my mislynch but I'm starting to feel that same apathy I felt D1 and d2 of that game and can't sit back anymore.

Rant over.

I'll respond about more people when I can. I am at work and was trying to read and catch up but don't have time to fully flesh out my thoughts right now so I'll stop here.

[cassielle]

im liking hawk for town tbh

good slot

good rant

if you need someone to bounce things off of, im active when im not sleeping at strange hours or lodged in a Thomas Ligotti novel and i think you and i could curb each others worst tendencies here

honestly tho i want to let the coasters coast a bit because activity, like you said, NAI -- and active scum will destroy town's ability to coordinate in a lurk-heavy game like this one. its more important to find the noise in the active posters and take them out first so its easier for town to coordinate lynches later

[cassielle]

and honestly, the thing with creature is that i trust his d2+ townplay and i could end up being an amplifier for bad signal from his slot if he is scum and we let him coast

[Creature]

Oh lol when someone acts like emotions can be easily faked by anyone.

[cassielle]

Oh lol when someone acts like emotions can be easily faked by anyone.

paranoia is town tho

[Creature]

Though thinking anything can be easily faked is sad. Glad I don't think that.

[doomfeathers]

VOTE: Aubrey

Aubrey's giving the most scum impression so far.

outoforder, Rels, doomfeathers.

Let's fuse together to powertown this game.

So far Aubrey looks more likely scum.

hapahauli can be scum too.

Aubrey looks like low-hanging scum. And he isn't low-hanging as town.

doomfeathers is probably his typical Open 658.

Few of these actually have reasons. This would be very easy for scum to fake.

Still haven't hyperposted because I'm sorta lacking interess right now.

Dude just told us to scumread him. Yes, I know he keeps claiming there's a difference, but I'm not seeing it.

i didnt like you talking mechanics the way you did but it felt like town flubbing it instead of scum gambiting and your slot's recovered well imo

This is one thing I don't get. Why does everybody think discussing theory is scummy? What possible good could scum gain from trying to break the game for town? Experienced townies are going to point out anything that wouldn't work, as evidenced by what came soon after my theory posts.

This is your daily reminder that no one actually has reasons to call me mafia.

I find it hard to remember what you have posted. You've spent a lot of time arguing over whether people should be scumreading you even when there aren't that many. You look to me as if you could easily be scum trying to avoid doing any real scumhunting work. I'll check you over later to see whether my impression looks right to me.

Oh right, the doubting.

Back to disinteress.

Seriously? If you have a problem with people doubting your reads, why are you playing Mafia? I know Creature made some townie-looking posts just previous, but this just looks like a poor excuse to do less work. Creature is scummy.

[Creature]

Didn't you townread me earlier?

[cassielle]

Though thinking anything can be easily faked is sad. Glad I don't think that.

maybe not easily but i do think anything can in fact be faked

i have an edge there for emotion for example, i have an mfa in lit -- if i want someone to believe i feel a certain way i can nail that. is it /easy/? no -- but its /possible/ and if its /possible/ then for someone out there it /is/ easy.

so i see where the paranoia there comes from

i think hes just not yet aware of how /strong/ your meta is. i mean, i wasnt either and you remember d3 of newbie 1769? the scum lead me on a merry ride because i was already overly suspicious of everyone talking about your meta. its easy to get taken in by scum who are clever and good at what they do, easy to be taken advantage of, and he just doesnt know yet how you fit into the game

you being more active and focused ought to help though

[Creature]

If everybody didn't take anything towny serious because "anything could be faked", would mafia be fun?

[Hawk]

Okay I guess that's fine. I don't really like it but I guess that's fine. The only thing I like about creatures d1 play so far is the fact that he keeps laying out townreads makes him really easy to ISO so I think if we flip scum at some point and creatures alive it'll be easy confirm him one way or the other based off that.

ALSO I LEFT OFF DOOM! MY GUT SAYS SCUM, but idk why... Also I haven't had much sleep so forgive me if my posts are shit today guys. New baby and all. lol

Pedit: I guess easily is a strong word to use there. It may take more effort based off the person. I'm just saying it's easier in forum Mafia than IRL (were I play more) because you can take a step back from replying right away if you have too.

Ppedit: Damnit Doom. Ignoring my gut a bit here cause it's probably just hungry.

Creature looks scummy to me too but like I said I don't want to push him just because of activity and his reasons being easy to fake.

Theory talk can be scummy because a lot of Theory talk in games where there is good Balance D1 is WIFOM. It's why in Game Theory you have games with 0-sum.

PPPEdit: I will reread later. Tired. Have to Work. Be on later guys and gals.

[cassielle]

i didnt like you talking mechanics the way you did but it felt like town flubbing it instead of scum gambiting and your slot's recovered well imo

This is one thing I don't get. Why does everybody think discussing theory is scummy? What possible good could scum gain from trying to break the game for town? Experienced townies are going to point out anything that wouldn't work, as evidenced by what came soon after my theory posts.

the issue isnt trying to break the game for town, the issue is picking a suboptimal strategy. if scum does it itll be one less obvious than that i think but that makes it more dangerous
and the issue isnt discussing theory/strategy either -- its talking about night actions. thats the scum playing field to begin with, and town talking about night actions like "arming your 1-shot pgo" is giving info to the enemy. best that everyone uses their own personal heuristics -- tho if everyone arms n1 ill be extremely disappointed

This is your daily reminder that no one actually has reasons to call me mafia.

I find it hard to remember what you have posted. You've spent a lot of time arguing over whether people should be scumreading you even when there aren't that many. You look to me as if you could easily be scum trying to avoid doing any real scumhunting work. I'll check you over later to see whether my impression looks right to me.

appearance-focused gameplay with no real scumhunting to speak of seems to be order of the day over there yeah. why i have no problem letting him coast, he'll practically put the noose on himself

Oh right, the doubting.

Back to disinteress.

Seriously? If you have a problem with people doubting your reads, why are you playing Mafia? I know Creature made some townie-looking posts just previous, but this just looks like a poor excuse to do less work. Creature is scummy.

it is my understanding that this doubting comment is personal between me and creature (cant talk about it though)

[Creature]

I like talking about theory, it sort stopped to be scummy and it's not a big deal if someone constantly talks about it.

[cassielle]

If everybody didn't take anything towny serious because "anything could be faked", would mafia be fun?

no of course not

check the flip side tho -- town is always scummy -- so if you policy lynch every thing that "only scum does" youll lose every game you play

the key is calculated risk

[Creature]

Exactly, like in the Newbie 1769 where I didn't really want mbg and TB lynch.

[cassielle]

Okay I guess that's fine. I don't really like it but I guess that's fine. The only thing I like about creatures d1 play so far is the fact that he keeps laying out townreads makes him really easy to ISO so I think if we flip scum at some point and creatures alive it'll be easy confirm him one way or the other based off that.

ALSO I LEFT OFF DOOM! MY GUT SAYS SCUM, but idk why... Also I haven't had much sleep so forgive me if my posts are shit today guys. New baby and all. lol

Pedit: I guess easily is a strong word to use there. It may take more effort based off the person. I'm just saying it's easier in forum Mafia than IRL (were I play more) because you can take a step back from replying right away if you have too.

Ppedit: Damnit Doom. Ignoring my gut a bit here cause it's probably just hungry.

Creature looks scummy to me too but like I said I don't want to push him just because of activity and his reasons being easy to fake.

Theory talk can be scummy because a lot of Theory talk in games where there is good Balance D1 is WIFOM. It's why in Game Theory you have games with 0-sum.

PPPEdit: I will reread later. Tired. Have to Work. Be on later guys and gals.

more i think about this more i like hawk for town
its excusing the bad posts but its also feeling self-deprecating about messing them up in the first place

the talk about creature locking himself into associatives as scum is good stuff
doomfeathers DOES feel like scum at a gutread level but its a lot of tiny crap -- the theory talk, bad (but NOT nonexistent, NAI or false) reasoning on reads, etc. stuff thats more likely to be townie lynchbait than scum (though doomfeathers has also done a really good job of humanizing his slot and putting his thought processes on the table, which helps him avoid being easy lynchbait too -- it just feels town when you give it a good deep look tbh)

still scumreading hawk, creature?