Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

[Rels]

Hey Rels, when you're around, let me know what you think of the MooginSoosy post.

I don't get if it's a joke or not. It doesn't make sense if it's serious

[Rels]

[quote="In post 11, [...]
The MooginSoosy post is pretty obviously not serious, so this post inclines me to think outoforder is overeager town if newbie. If alt, maybe not.
[...]

I think, if you are town, you should probably stop leaping into conclusions since you have no possible way of knowing what i think of the post in the first place.
I mean, because in your opinion i should not assume the post was serious that means if i am an experienced player i must be mafia, right? Well fyi i have not said what i think of the post in the first place so your conclusion is invalid.

Ah, but you did see something you thought was AI there or you wouldn't have asked, and since you asked without saying what you thought, I'm willing to bet it was scum-indicative.

No it is not an alt. I know hapahauli and Rels from another forum.

Gotcha.

I don't know the metas for any other sites, unfortunately. Rels and hapahauli, do you think OOO's question about MooginSoosy was scummy? Unless the answer is "yes", I now have no reason to scumread OOO.

no

[Rels]

Hey Rels, when you're around, let me know what you think of the MooginSoosy post.

I don't get if it's a joke or not. It doesn't make sense if it's serious

Any other comments to make? Anything at all to say about the last 4 pages?

Where do you stand on OOO now ?

[Rels]

doomfeathers how good is your scumgame ?

[Rels]

Not reading properly =/= mafia.

Reading something as a "clusterfuck", criticizing it as confusing/pointless, and then engaging in said clusterfuck is likely mafia. The story is inconsistent. Posting for the sake of posting, etc.

Literally my only comment on that interaction was to say it was a clusterfuck and should not continue (and yes, for some reason I mixed Creature in there because I had been quoting him above to snark at his early posting, and because Rels literally hasn't posted this game, so apologies to Creature). I then moved on to a completely separate point about Ooo's refusal to give his own opinions until people have played his little mini-game.

I don't understand how that's separate. OoO's "mini-game" has everything to do with the fact that him, Rels, and I have played on other websites.

I think either you're not understanding or I'm not getting it across properly: the issue isn't the existence of the mini-game, it's that Ooo refused to clue anyone else in until it was "done with" or engage the people trying to get answers out of him.

Hey Rels, when you're around, let me know what you think of the MooginSoosy post.

I don't get if it's a joke or not. It doesn't make sense if it's serious

Any other comments to make? Anything at all to say about the last 4 pages?

Where do you stand on OOO now ?

Given how determined he was/is to shit on me and dismiss anything I've said as "oh he's just stupid he isn't reading he doesn't know anything" I'm pretty happy with my vote.

Well I agree with him on that. I don't know if it makes you town like he does, but you definitely missed his point. It's normal OOO doesn't want to give his explanation as long as I haven't given mine - he wants to see if I thought the same thing he did.

[Rels]

doomfeathers how good is your scumgame ?

I've been scum one game and was lynched N1. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=68559

TY. Seems like you're town then

[Rels]

Even if we decide to all arm at the same night to prevent scum from killing, it's still scumsided. So better arm when you feel like.

So are you gonna start posting relevent stuff at some point ?

[Rels]

Cause your filter, ISO, whatever you're calling that here, is awful.
The "I don't like this guy but I won't explain why 'cause it's just an impression but actually it wasn't very serious". Weird way to start the game.
The "LOOK IM PARTICIPATING" comment that you're making on the setup / way to play. While you don't have posts that matter yet. It looks like scum trying to appear being active. "RVS shouldn't be stopped!" "We shoudln't all arm the same night!"
Then the rest of your posts are useless but I don't care about that, townies can make useless posts. I really don't like these two points though

[Rels]

When I get a couple of decent townreads I will.

Why ? You can't find scum without having a town circle first ?

[Rels]

doomfeathers does anything else stick out to you other than me atm?

If hapahauli thought you were scum, and knew you don't respond to pressure as scum, why would he pressure you? By your logic, you should be scumreading him.

Right. I also have 14 irl days to make a decision. Right now (as per my last post) his explanation is not satisfying at all.

What more of an explanation is there? I looked at the thread, saw a few votes on you, and thought "lel imma gonna vote him."

That's not the impression I got from your post:

Hey Rels, when you're around, let me know what you think of the MooginSoosy post.

Why aren't you asking me about it?

VOTE: outoforder

That looks way more like pressure than "lol I'll join this wagon"

[Rels]

I find scum knowing where town is.

TBF you also look pretty bad there: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... B%5D=27374
LOL this makes me think of your "MM WE SHOULD NOT ALL ARM THE SAME NIGHT" post though:

Funny, because as scum I try to look active but I end up lurking. As town it's like the opposite.

How the fuck can I find a scumgame of yours easily. This forum is hard to use

[Rels]

I have a wiki, you know, it's in the bottom left of my post right next to PM.

Well that is a pretty cool feature

[Rels]

I don't understand Reels odd interest in Doom's scum ability.

Then why are you not questionning me on that ?

[Rels]

I agree Hapa looks the worst in the game right now. It feels superficial.
The jump on rayn first, for which he changed his reasonning.
Then the thing on KidDamn, where he attacked him on something pretty weak and got convinced super easily, when Kiddamn just repeated things he's said before.
Finally this vote havingfitz. The vote in itself in not weird, havingfitz is definitely lackluster. But it's an easy vote. Like the things above.
I'm not seeing "obvious town" Hapa from last game. Though last game it took half of D1 for him to appear.

[Rels]

If I say, "

I don't understand why person did X

" then that is your cue to explain why you did X. You don't need to be posed a question in order to be cued into explaining yourself.

So when you had this small sentence in this big post, you were expecting an answer from me ?
Basically doomfeathers made some townie posts and was the most active person in the thread, so I wanted to know if he's likely to do that as scum.

[Rels]

Rela, Didnt you think I was mafia in our last game until hours before the D1 lynch?

Yep. And you were scummy until that time. You even gave a emotional explanation to your lacklusterness when I was pressuring you, you hadn't played in a long time, etc.

[Rels]

Rela, Didnt you think I was mafia in our last game until hours before the D1 lynch?

Yep. And you were scummy until that time. You even gave a emotional explanation to your lacklusterness when I was pressuring you, you hadn't played in a long time, etc.

oh man, no he wasn't.

yes he was. Pushing totally random things that didn't make anyone scum. The HF case was where he started becoming townie

[Rels]

Creature had lots of shit posts in his town games too, especially early.

[Rels]

Rels tell me something about something that does not involve hapa, KidAmn or havingfitz?

I tell things when I have things to tell

[Rels]

I feel you're town.

[Rels]

I like the way you interacted with people. I like that you're interacting directly with me. I share most of what you're saying

[Rels]

outoforder, Rels, doomfeathers.

Let's fuse together to powertown this game.

I feel like this game is gonna be EZ

[Rels]

In other news I won't be there all weekend. 14 IRL days phase are a great chance of pace from 48h in TL.

[Rels]

We need three more strong townreads though (unless you trust luck).

lol
Game is never solved on D1

[Rels]

Is there a way to get a ISO list that points to every players in this game ?

[Rels]

yeah I'm back! Gonna catch up in 1 hour aproximativaly

[Rels]

Aubrey's mindset seems totally different as mafia than here. Also he jumps on same sort of things he isn't jumping on here. Granted, i haven't seen a town game of his so point me out to one and i will rejudge.

so did you ever do that ?

[Rels]

Caught up.
Hapa is scum.
Kop is most likely scum.
Aubrey rayn and hawk are townie.
Creature and doom are super town.
So most importantly Hapa is scum. Let's murder him.

[Rels]

VOTE: Hapahauli

[Rels]

There are two reasons Hapa is scum. They come down to the fact that Hapa is a wonderful town player and a lackluster scum player. A few years back on TL Hapa was considered one of the best own around, and it is because he KNOWS how to see motives behind post. He sees logic thought process and illogical one.

This game, he has not shown that. He has been bland. Asking questions. Defending himself. All of it is bland, nothing is smart. That is why he's scum.

Furthermore, but only rayn can assest to that; last game the same thing kinda happened. For 24 hours Hapa was bland, and I pressured him. He woke up and showed two things : smart posts on one end, and genuine frustration feelings on the other. He was feeling bad at the fact that he was playing bad and that he was being scumlread. THere, after rayn, I and others pressured him, nothing of that.

So he's scum. The plus side is that if he's not scum he will wake up like the town god he is.

[Rels]

How many votes hapahauli is at?

I'm the only one I think atm

[Rels]

Creature seems super town because he's posting all the time. When he's being townread by people with influence in the thread. He doesn't like being play, source : his wiki and his scum games. Here we have a mix of some I-dont-care-what-you-think posts and good activity.
MAYBE he's tryharding. We'll see if he drops off. But he seems super town.

[Rels]

Kops's filter is horrible too.

1. Most of it is useless stuff.

But not the townie kind of useless stuff. Not the "I-dont-care-about-others" posts. No, useless-but-still-trying-to-look-useful kind.

Hey Rels, when you're around, let me know what you think of the MooginSoosy post.

What do you think of that post?

Useless question that have no follow up.

This is MafiaScum. Vote away. If you're not voting, you'll likely be viewed as hesitant scum.

I don't care. I vote when i actually am fairly certain someone is scum. If people wanna paint it as hesitant scum then they do. ^^
I see votes as "i am trying to lynch this person i think is mafia", not as "i voted for random person" or "reaction test" or whatever... It just is confusing imo. Keep it simple, that's what i like to do regarding votes. I believe that way scum have no outs from their votes, as if you vote you only vote for one reason and one reason only and you can never say "well i actually didn't think that guy was scum after all at the time".

There are no certainties of who is scum unless we have guilty or a scum claim. Votes on a wagon of someone you suspect gets far more answers than just sitting on your hands until you find someone who's willing, to put there hands up and say "hey I'm scum." Or even starting up a voting process on one of your top suspects.

Look at that buddying.

I don't really like giant walls because scum sometimes use that to scare off potential suspects.

Not being able to read someone simply because they are hard to read doest make them scum.

2. His ONE scumread is bad, he's not voting him, he's not pressuring him.

This one:

Fitz looks townie to me. This scares me, because I townread him for playing exactly the same last game. He was scum.

Also, there's nobody here who isn't a plausible wagonee, so literally any vote could be seen that way.

If you're referring to my jumpy voting, I do that at the beginning of every game. I can provide references if you wish. I find it helpful to know how people respond when I vote for them.

Pedit: Okay, then. That's been the case in the past sometimes, now that I think about it. He'll need to get involved soon to avoid the prod anyway.

VOTE: havingfitz

Your vote doesn't make any sense. Why would you say he looks townie, but then vote for him a few posts after. I understand you said that he was like that in the previous game but turned out to be scum, so you have paranoia that it could be another turn out like that, but is that the only reason your suspecting him?

Because in reality, your vote doesn't have a case or is backed up with any questions towards fitz to answer too. It feels to me that you were questioned about your previous vote on a needless slot right now, to someone that could appear needing pressure. And that is backed up by you asking Aubrey for her thoughts on Fitz, as if your trying to push Aubrey into Fitz direction.

First, this reasonning doesn't make anyone scum. Town are way more likely to flip flop their read on someone than scum. The inquisitive tone in the last paragraph is also not in phase with Kop's actions: he's not voting doom, he's not talking to him even though he's STILL HERE when doom comes back.
This post is after he explained why he scumread doom; after he agreed with Aubrey that doom was scummy; and after doom came back to the thread. But he doesn't do anything with him and leave the thread.

--

Yeah. Probably scum.

[Rels]

I have a hard time deciding on Moongin. I see conflicting things

[Rels]

On the minus side she had a a pretty bad re-entrance to the thread. She even acknolodged it herself, but acknowledging it doesn't make it any less scummier. She declared three tentative townreads on OOO (rayn in the above posts, sorry, will try to call him OOO) Creature on I, all of 3 we townread each other, probably some easy reads to copy for a scum when reading the thread and thinking about how to blend in.
Then she has to be forced to give a scumread, and it's lackluster.

On the plus side, after that she shows some change on these townreads. Like she does'tn know what to do. it feels town.

On another minus side she's focusing a LOT of these 4 players: doom OOO creature and I. Like she's kinda ignoring what's happening on the side. And it's a scum trait usually.

[Rels]

I'm becoming tired quickly

[Rels]

I really dislike that fitz left after making a big catch up post. Even though I don't think the catch up is scummy in itself. But making a big post when being suspected then GTFOing is more likely coming from scum than town I think. But he has his IRL excuse.
I'm intersted to see what he brings when he coems back.
(BTW fitz I saw you had questions for me in this big post. Ask them again if they are still relevent when you coma back)

[Rels]

The posts are literally next to each other... You are saying you just randomly decided to stop reading further at that point? If i am completely honest, FECambell, i'd like to have you actually reach to some conclusions because you aren't really giving us anything right now.

I mean like:
You have already commented things that have happened way after those posts you just were concerned about. How does it make any sense that you didn't care about them the first time you read it or are you reading the thread backwards or something?

Within 24 hours there were 5 pages. The activity is good, but that means I could spend forever reading past posts.

Yeah OOO is 100% right. Fredrik asking that:

I've always wondered why people actually pick the people they do vote at the start of the game. I don't actually believe anyone ever goes to random.org or rolls a dice or something like that.

The illusion of non-randomness must be present for an RVS vote to be of any use. Also, how should I abbreviate your name? Does OOO work?

Hey Rels, when you're around, let me know what you think of the MooginSoosy post.

You know Rels, then, even though this is the first game you've posted in? Are you an alt?
The MooginSoosy post is pretty obviously not serious, so this post inclines me to think outoforder is overeager town if newbie. If alt, maybe not.

Hey Rels, when you're around, let me know what you think of the MooginSoosy post.

Why aren't you asking me about it?

VOTE: outoforder

So you know outoforder, too?

Aubrey's giving the most scum impression so far.

From my experience, that means she's probably town.

Hey Rels, when you're around, let me know what you think of the MooginSoosy post.

Why aren't you asking me about it?

VOTE: outoforder

Because i don't feel like i need to ask you about it. From what i remember playing with you you will make your alignment clear to me before D1 ends even if i didn't prod you in any way. There is also a Rels-specific reason i am not willing to discuss yet.

But while you're at it, care to elaborate on this; This is what i believe to be a fact. You don't tend to participate in RVS / pressure vote shennies at D1 start, especailly towards a player you MUST know to not respond to being "pressured" by giving away his alignment as mafia. I mean like if i was scum i couldn't care less that there are people voting for me over absolutely nothing. You know that aswell so the only conclusions i can come to are that either (1) you actually think i am mafia, or (2) you are mafia.

So why do you think i am mafia? You really couldn't think i could possibly have - at this point of the game - a specific question to a specific player that i would not feel the need to ask you aswell, just because i have played with both of you before? In case there is option (3) aswell, feel free to tell me what that is.

Yup, that's an alt.

VOTE: outoforder

Never mind, sorry. Aubrey's a guy. I assumed Aubrey was a girl because I've only heard the name as a girl's name.

UNVOTE:

What is your logic for unvoting?

When the answer is literally in the NEXT post after the last one he quoted. Not the next post in the ISO; the next post in the thread:

Wow. I didn't notice how close that was to lynch.

OOO is now at L-3.

Then he's replacing after being pressured on that point. Not saying mental stress is faked, BTW sorry bro hope you'll be OK. But playing scum is definitely more stresful than town. Especially when you make a blunder like that.
This slot is looking scum too.

[Rels]

BTW I love that in this forum the quoted posts have links you can click to go to the page they were posted.

[Rels]

OK I'm going to sleep. See you later boys and girls (=

[Rels]

I know your going to complain when I ask this, but why are you scum reading Frederick again? Because if memory serves me correctly, it was due to him missing content or something before posting? If he is going through a shitty time, it is understandable to think that maybe he isn't putting his all into the game, or is heavily distracted due to the shit. Hence the replace out. He seriously should be put back to a null position in your reads vs. scum read if that is the case. For example: If he lost his job, going through a rough patch with family, has depression issues, school is kicking his ass, etc. it is understandable for lousy town or scum play.

First, I disagree that we should null read Fred because he feels bad and is replacing out. It might be the best fair way to treat his slot, but the game is about finding scum, so I'll use any information available.
What Fred did was:
1. don't do anything for several days, excuse: he was busy preparing his Dad's birthday. No problem there.
2. his first meaningful post is asking about something that happens post 36. BUT the answer is in post 37.
3. OOO calls him out on that
4. he gives an excuse that don't mean anything, then replaces out

2 things.
First, step 2 is scummy. He looks like scum that KNOWS he needs to start becoming active to not get lynched at some point. And the best way to look active is to ask pointless question that looks good. The problem is that this question don't try to push the game forward. It's a indicator of him being scum. In addition, the answer was LITERALLY in the next post. It shows that Frederick cared more about appearing active than solving the game.

Second, step 4 is scummy. That might be not fair. But Frederick made a blunder; got pressured by OOO; and replaced out. He didn't replace out of nowhere; he replaced specifically after being pressured. More likely coming from scum than town.

--

Now it is not slam dunk scum. It's still D1. It's possible he's town and played badly. But it's more likely he's scum.

[Rels]

mod...I will be v/LA from now until Tuesday morning.

Back. Will catch up asap.

Dat hype

[Rels]

If that is all it takes to be scumread by ya'll then this will be an interesting game. How much experience do the two of you have out of curiosity?

Started playing something like 1 year and a half ago, link to all my games: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/profile.php?user=Rels
OOO and Hapa have way more experience than me
I don't understand your mindset. Yes if someone does something scummy I consider him more likely to be scum than before he did that. If his replacement does something townier my read will change.

[Rels]

My mindset is easy to understand. I can see a world where a town Fred missed a post. The fact you all don't consider that baffles me. I miss, forget, or misunderstand posts all the time. If he wanted to seem like relevant scum why not just regurgate things that are already being said vs. looking back into the game for something useless to talk about? He understands his head isn't in the best place and leaves. I'm not getting any AI vibes from it.

At least you recognize that it is by no means a slam dunk.

Yeah it's not 100% sure. D1 lynch are almost never 100% anyway. But I disagree that it's NAI. The easiest thing to do for scum is precisely to look for new things to talk about, to appear to be active; and asking useless questions are a way to do that.
I already explained why I think the rest is AI: the fact that he didn't see a post that was JUST below the one he was wondering about could show that he had no intention to solve the game with that question; and leaving after being pressured is more a scum thing than a town thing.

[Rels]

And Hapa is still the best lynch. Just because we are not talking about him doesn't erase that.

[Rels]

OOO why is Kop town ?

[Rels]

Pretty sure we are going to be coming at this game on completely different viewpoints.

Well that's totally fine.

[Rels]

OOO why is Kop town ?

Read my filter and you'll find out.

meh. Very meh. He's sitting aside. He's not pressuring doom after his vote on him. His scumread on Moongin is pretty vague, dunno why you townread him for that.

[Rels]

And LOL at "I'm never gonna try to convince everyone anymore" . Sure rayn, sure. ^^

[Rels]

mod...I will be v/LA from now until Tuesday morning.

Back. Will catch up asap.

Dat hype

Apparently I don't know what ASAP means

[Rels]

Apparently I don't know what ASAP means

If a 48h game it means at most something like 3 hours, maybe in this game it's 24 hrs?

I also just learned quotes are super annoying here.

haha p:
Dunno, on one hand it's annoying that quotes don't auto-hide. On the other hand having the link to the quoted post is pretty awesome p:

[Rels]

Getting back into the swing of things. Need a few hours to catch up.

Still faster than ASAP

[Rels]

K leaving work, see you later (=

[Rels]

UNVOTE: Hapahauli
Welcome to the game

[Rels]

My baby girl was just born! Will be back later maybe earlier than tomorrow just felt like sharing!!!

Gratz =D

[Rels]

kidDamn defense is awful.

[Rels]

You call Kop your second strongest read and then follow it with a list of reasons he might not be scum, one of which is his posting style with bigass walls of text catchup, while criticising me for having a weak scum-read on Creature but admitting that part of my issue could just be his posting style

Do you not see the contradiction there

This in particular makes no sense. This looks like stretching to find reasons to OMGUS

[Rels]

...at this point I'm going to assume you're scum being intentionally dense because nobody can be this goddamn dumb after both doom and I have pointed out the inconsistency to you, so good night.

KidDamn throwing a fist for a little bit then GTFOing could be scum indicative too.

[Rels]

Fitz

still is probably my second strongest read. I did not like his "wall-o-text" catchup post in the least bit.

It's like he made it intentionally super hard to read,

while criticizing OoO's wall for being hard-to-read.

Though two things give me pause (and have me wanting KidAmn dead first):
1) Multiple people have been complaining about OoO's post-length, which makes it possible that being anti-wall-of-text is some standard mafiascum meta thing.
2) I've seen townies do the "post while catching up wall-of-text" before, and they always read as very awkward/scummy to me.

I think there's a chance that Fitz is just a really awkward poster. Not a large chance, but certainly more of a chance than KidAmn.

The bolded is weird. Why would Fitz do something obviously bad ?
About 1), didn't you say you already played in this forum ? Why are you not aware of that ?

[Rels]

Don't think I want to lynch KidDamn over Kop or Frederick though

[Rels]

You call Kop your second strongest read and then follow it with a list of reasons he might not be scum, one of which is his posting style with bigass walls of text catchup, while criticising me for having a weak scum-read on Creature but admitting that part of my issue could just be his posting style

Do you not see the contradiction there

This in particular makes no sense. This looks like stretching to find reasons to OMGUS

He's explaining what I said.

What you said also made no sense. There is a difference between saying "X could be scum but also could be town doing this" and "I would be OK lynching X even though my only problem with him is his posting style, which I checked he uses as town"

[Rels]

Does Frederick gets killed by host at some point if he doesn't get replaced ?

[Rels]

Kops's filter is horrible too.

1. Most of it is useless stuff.

But not the townie kind of useless stuff. Not the "I-dont-care-about-others" posts. No, useless-but-still-trying-to-look-useful kind.

Hey Rels, when you're around, let me know what you think of the MooginSoosy post.

What do you think of that post?

Useless question that have no follow up.

This is MafiaScum. Vote away. If you're not voting, you'll likely be viewed as hesitant scum.

I don't care. I vote when i actually am fairly certain someone is scum. If people wanna paint it as hesitant scum then they do. ^^
I see votes as "i am trying to lynch this person i think is mafia", not as "i voted for random person" or "reaction test" or whatever... It just is confusing imo. Keep it simple, that's what i like to do regarding votes. I believe that way scum have no outs from their votes, as if you vote you only vote for one reason and one reason only and you can never say "well i actually didn't think that guy was scum after all at the time".

There are no certainties of who is scum unless we have guilty or a scum claim. Votes on a wagon of someone you suspect gets far more answers than just sitting on your hands until you find someone who's willing, to put there hands up and say "hey I'm scum." Or even starting up a voting process on one of your top suspects.

Look at that buddying.

I don't really like giant walls because scum sometimes use that to scare off potential suspects.

Not being able to read someone simply because they are hard to read doest make them scum.

2. His ONE scumread is bad, he's not voting him, he's not pressuring him.

This one:

Fitz looks townie to me. This scares me, because I townread him for playing exactly the same last game. He was scum.

Also, there's nobody here who isn't a plausible wagonee, so literally any vote could be seen that way.

If you're referring to my jumpy voting, I do that at the beginning of every game. I can provide references if you wish. I find it helpful to know how people respond when I vote for them.

Pedit: Okay, then. That's been the case in the past sometimes, now that I think about it. He'll need to get involved soon to avoid the prod anyway.

VOTE: havingfitz

Your vote doesn't make any sense. Why would you say he looks townie, but then vote for him a few posts after. I understand you said that he was like that in the previous game but turned out to be scum, so you have paranoia that it could be another turn out like that, but is that the only reason your suspecting him?

Because in reality, your vote doesn't have a case or is backed up with any questions towards fitz to answer too. It feels to me that you were questioned about your previous vote on a needless slot right now, to someone that could appear needing pressure. And that is backed up by you asking Aubrey for her thoughts on Fitz, as if your trying to push Aubrey into Fitz direction.

First, this reasonning doesn't make anyone scum. Town are way more likely to flip flop their read on someone than scum. The inquisitive tone in the last paragraph is also not in phase with Kop's actions: he's not voting doom, he's not talking to him even though he's STILL HERE when doom comes back.
This post is after he explained why he scumread doom; after he agreed with Aubrey that doom was scummy; and after doom came back to the thread. But he doesn't do anything with him and leave the thread.

--

Yeah. Probably scum.

This is still a good case.
VOTE: Kop

[Rels]

+ the thing OOO found where Kop is saying "voting is always good, you shoudl'nt wait to be super sure on a scumread before voting":

This is MafiaScum. Vote away. If you're not voting, you'll likely be viewed as hesitant scum.

I don't care. I vote when i actually am fairly certain someone is scum. If people wanna paint it as hesitant scum then they do. ^^
I see votes as "i am trying to lynch this person i think is mafia", not as "i voted for random person" or "reaction test" or whatever... It just is confusing imo. Keep it simple, that's what i like to do regarding votes. I believe that way scum have no outs from their votes, as if you vote you only vote for one reason and one reason only and you can never say "well i actually didn't think that guy was scum after all at the time".

There are no certainties of who is scum unless we have guilty or a scum claim. Votes on a wagon of someone you suspect gets far more answers than just sitting on your hands until you find someone who's willing, to put there hands up and say "hey I'm scum." Or even starting up a voting process on one of your top suspects.

And never vote besides random vote at the beginning.

[Rels]

doom, Creature, since you're around do you know the answer to this ?

Does Frederick gets killed by host at some point if he doesn't get replaced ?

[Rels]

Fitz where do your KidDamn townread come from ?

[Rels]

bacadafagahajakalamanaparasatavawaza

Only disagree on Aubrey and Creature.

You're talking about:

Town leans - Doom, Kop, KidAmn, Rels,
TBDs - Hawk, OoO, Moogin, Fredrick
Scum leans - Aubrey, Creature, hapa

How does that match up with:

01. Aubrey

02. Kop > KainTepes
03. hapahauli

04. outoforder
05. Rels*
06. Hawk > Allomancer*

07. MooginSoosy
08. KidAmn
09. havingfitz

10. doomfeathers

11. Fredrick E Campbell

12. Creature

? Hawk is a townread of yours ? KidDamn is someone you can lynch but he's in Fitz' townreads ?

[Rels]

i've liked skimmed everything and I'll do a re-read later, then comment. Maybe.

doom, Creature, since you're around do you know the answer to this ?

Does Frederick gets killed by host at some point if he doesn't get replaced ?

He will be replaced. Don't you worry.

Well I would have preferred to have a double lynch =D

[Rels]

idk, I don't really have a scumread on Kop or KidAmn, just don't feel enough to put them in locktown position.

Why would they be just below locktown to begin with ?

[Rels]

Moogin are you gonna give your read on Rels especially since Rels came in with some very nice aggressive scumhunting here? Can you give a read on Hapa as well while your at it since you said you didn't understand why people thought Hapa was scummy?

Well now I think rels is more town, no need to phrase it in the way you did. Looking from before the weekend and after the weekend makes a huge difference for rels. Like no I'm not going to think he's 100% but that was nice explanation for hapa for me.

The hardest thing to wrap my head around for hapa is the fact that they're looking to past games which I cannot look at? So no I still don't see scum hapa but I also don't see town hapa.

Yo. I think you're very focus on a little part of the game. And that annoys me.
What did you think of the Hapa comeback ?
What do you think of the current lynch candidates ? KidDamn, Kop, Frederick ?

[Rels]

I planned on catching up tonight but it's late already. Will do that tomorrow

[Rels]

Cassielle is so town I don't understand how you can raect like that Hapa

[Rels]

totally erased my doubts about Frederick

[Rels]

I would actually vote you if Kop wasn't so scummy. And you're defending Kop now.

[Rels]

No way cassy looks town to you. How does she read me as mafia as strongly as she does with the reasons she posted? How does she push Creature instead as an associative bussing theory instead of the guy the theory relies on (me)?

she's trying to solve the game and that shows. Or she's faking it well. She says things that are weird but the way she's talking abuot a lot of things is super townie

[Rels]

stop defending yourself bro. Show me your logic like you did before

[Rels]

No way cassy looks town to you. How does she read me as mafia as strongly as she does with the reasons she posted? How does she push Creature instead as an associative bussing theory instead of the guy the theory relies on (me)?

she's trying to solve the game and that shows. Or she's faking it well. She says things that are weird but the way she's talking abuot a lot of things is super townie

She's very clearly not if you're reading her read on me.

STOP TALKING ABUOT HER READ ON YOU
STOP OMGUSING

[Rels]

Of course all these people can't be mafia. People like Doomfeathers and OoO are probalby town (for reasons I explained before). Creature as well. Fitz seems atleast to be thinking about his read on me, which makes me think I was wrong about him.

But

KidAmn

and

Cassielle

stick out as the mafia on my wagon.

Cassielle

is not considering new information in the thread. She read the thread once, decided I was mafia, and that was that. She has no interest in talking about her read on me, and every interest in repeatedly calling me mafia (to the point that she's calling Creature's vote on me a bus). This is a very strong sign of mafia - she's pushing an agenda and not an actual read. There's no way it's townie confirmation bias, since there's no evidence she actually read my filter other than some throw-away tone read.

KidAmn

is pushing me for reasons that have already been discredited. Again, not considering new information. Pushing an agenda. Etc. Refusal to parse new information goes beyond confirmation bias into a scummy agenda.

What about off your wagon. Who's scum off your wagon. (besides Kop who is still off all wagons!!)

What about this?

Lynching Frederick would be a huge cop out. He's a coinflip lynch and won't be around to defend himself. There are plenty of other people worth lynching and debating over him right now.

Plenty of other people worth debating was who? Fitz and KidDamn? You've given soft townreads to Fitz and Doom now do you're back on KidDamn and FEC's slot which you had said it was a cop out lynch? Cassiele's once through and the scum pick on you is difference enough to push as scum #1?

I get your frustrated but OMGUS cases don't paint you in the best light if you flip town well fuck. :/ Rels do you really think this could be TvT you know Hapa better than me or this possibly TvS?

I'm torn. On one hand I really like the cases he did when he came back. But now he's so scummy. OMGUSing, defending, BUT at the same time I'm not feeling emotions. Very logical

[Rels]

Like this is the kind of posts he did in the game I've played with him: I scumread him hard for half of D1, then realized he was town at some point, kinda like here where I thought he was town when he did his KidDamn case. These are it:

On January 17 2017 23:28 Hapahauli wrote:

STOP. GIVING. OUT. SHITTY. TOWN-TELLS. THAT. ARE. MEANINGLESS.

MEANINGLESS!

On January 17 2017 23:29 Hapahauli wrote:

On January 17 2017 23:27 Rels wrote:

But at the same time HF is voting Damdred just after that post. When he just criticized Hapa for scumreading Damdred without scumreading LS

DINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDING

WINARRRRRRRR

On January 18 2017 00:16 Hapahauli wrote:

I think you are town Rels, but your posts are tilting me really hard. I'm going to take a break, drive to the doctors, and be back in 45 minutes ish.

We can swing a vote if LightningStrike and Damdred come back. We should have 5-6 people active in-thread to do something by deadline.

[Rels]

Hapa showed no emotion early when he was pressured by rayn; and again now he's defending himself A LOT, but in the bad sense of the way. Pushing the "EVERYBODY SCUMREADS ME FOR NO R4EASON" without showing he's pissed

[Rels]

meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh

[Rels]

kop or kiddamn. These are my choices

[Rels]

Cassy entire interactoin with Creature is showing a real logic. Strong scum if she's scum. Ithink she's town

[Rels]

like she pressured him, then talk to him, then townread him, then interacted with him

[Rels]

KidDamn had an horrible defense against your case Hapa, then had 3 worthless posts since. Why are you not pushing him ?

[Rels]

hapahauli isn't showing his potential.

I've been reading through

Kop's

filter.

I understand why people think he's scummy, and I had my own reasons for suspecting him as well. But I have two huge misgivings about his lynch:
1) Literally everyone thinks that he's suspicious. There isn't any resistance, even from people on my wagon. Mafia decided to bus him from the beginning of the game and provide no resistance? I doubt it.

That doesn't make sense. Scum are likely to suspect a scummy partner while pushing for another lynch. It's the most usual answer. So in this situatoin where yuo're town, scum are suspecting him and pushing yuo. That doesnt' make him town at all.

2) What's his agenda? He isn't pushing anything period. There's no survival instinct. He could be pushing me pretty damn easy, but he's not. And even if you think we're both mafia, you think he'd be pushing literally any alternative to his lynch.

My feeling is that me vs. Kop is TvT, and scum are lulzing picking sides. Hence I'd rather be lynching people on the wagons rather than the wagons themselves.

You're wrong. He tried to do stuff. It wasn't convincing.

[Rels]

KidDamn had an horrible defense against your case Hapa, then had 3 worthless posts since. Why are you not pushing him ?

I.
Don't.
Even.

talk to me

[Rels]

There's no way you think like this as town. You're more interested in calling me mafia than actually finding out what my alignment is.

Calling me your top scumread, and pushing Creature in significant part based on him "bussing me" before I flip is nonsense and scummy bullshit.

VOTE: Cassielle

This is wrong. She pushed Creature for othre reasons and THEN draw associations with you. And at the time of this post she's not scumreading Creature anymore

[Rels]

Cassy is likely town. Hapa might be town

[Rels]

UNVOTE: Kop
VOTE: KidDamn
Horrible horrible posts when he was pressured

[Rels]

He's pretty critical of people "coasting", but that's basically what he's doing himself this game. He has 16 posts, most of which were made while defending himself from my early-game push against him. Scum love to criticize town for fucking up, but do nothing themselves to help the situation.

Secondly, probably the most substantial thing he has in his filter deals with his "read" on Creature:

Similarly something feels off to me about Creature - the rather blasé nature of their posting, throwing out town and scum-reads with little to no reasoning (looking at their ISO, their longest post is a whole 3 lines?)... it just comes across as the opposite of "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing" - and certainly not a tale told by an idiot. It's deliberate and I dislike it, but unfortunately it matches up with looking at their posting in a couple of other games I've looked at. Having Allomancer as one of their scumreads despite them being so inactive they've picked up a prod also feels lazy as hell, as if they're covering themselves by saying "I had a scumread on Allomancer" for if/when a "fuck it, get rid of these lurkers" wagon happens.

I've been driving the wife around all day, cut a fella some slack on the meme game.
As for the vote - Honestly, right now I could go for F.E.C. or Creature, but I'm willing to give both a chance to respond (Creature more-so as my issue with him seems to just be

how he plays

). Moogin needs to contribute way more than they have so far, so not disagreeable to putting some pressure there either.

In the first post, he calls Creature mafia for questionable reasons. This isn't inherently scummy - I'd understand why a less experienced townie could call Creature mafia for his posting style.

However the second post is quite scummy.

He mentions supporting a vote on Creature, while giving good reasons to call creature town. He then finishes off by throwing Shade at a 3rd player. It's very hard for me to see this post coming from town.

The thought process of a townie is "I think <player> is mafia, therefore I should vote <player>."
NOT
"<Player> can be town for <reasons>, but I'm cool with voting him anyway."

That's not a town mentality. Town want to lynch players that they're suspicious of, not players who they have reasons to think are NOT suspicious.

There's no mention of why he thinks Creature could be more likely mafia than town. He basically acknowledges that all of his reasons to vote Creature are non alignment indicative, yet he clearly states that he would vote him.

I don't have a ton of time to respond to all this bullshit where Hapahauli runs back to his first scum-reads again to drum up a counter wagon instead of doing anything productive, so I'm just gonna make some things clear:

- I'm "coasting" because I work 50 hours a week in an environment where I don't get to spend my time sat at a desk posting walls of waffle about interactions with players on a completely different site, so yes, my posting is sporadic

- The idea that being willing to give FEC and Creature a chance to respond to my issues is scummy is straight up bullshit. If giving people chances to respond is anti-town and making use of the time the town has to discuss things is anti-town then I want a ticket to whatever bizzaro world you're on. You also conveniently ignore that my issue isn't just with his style of posting, I also referred to the fact that he was throwing out town and scum reads with little reasoning behind them AND him throwing a town read on Allomancer who had done nothing of note all game

- You conveniently ignore that my other scum read at the time (FEC) was solidly based on a series of particularly scummy looking posts

PEDIT - as Doomfeather says you literally do the thing you accuse me of where you call kop scum and then list a bunch of reasons he could be town

In summary, bite my shiny metal ass
VOTE: Hapahauli

Also holy crap responding to all these walls of text is literal dicks on a phone.

Also GRATS HAWK

You call Kop your second strongest read and then follow it with a list of reasons he might not be scum, one of which is his posting style with bigass walls of text catchup, while criticising me for having a weak scum-read on Creature but admitting that part of my issue could just be his posting style

Do you not see the contradiction there

You call Kop your second strongest read and then follow it with a list of reasons he might not be scum, one of which is his posting style with bigass walls of text catchup, while criticising me for having a weak scum-read on Creature but admitting that part of my issue could just be his posting style

Do you not see the contradiction there

Mistype on my part from all these fucking walls of text - should be Fitz
Kop is not my second strongest read. Where do you get that?

Jfc phone posting. Mistype on my part from all these fucking walls of text - should be Fitz.

Point still stands, and calling you out on your bullshit with actual arguments is the opposite of "OMGUS" - the definition of OMGUS is a vote with no real reason other than 'fuck you' although that is basically my thoughts right now

...at this point I'm going to assume you're scum being intentionally dense because nobody can be this goddamn dumb after both doom and I have pointed out the inconsistency to you, so good night.

This whole sequence is awful. So OMGUS. So stretching to scumread Hapa. Then when he comes back to the thread he doesn't try to see that in a new calmer light. He just leaves his vote there and says nothing. Here are his 3 posts since:

You call Kop your second strongest read and then follow it with a list of reasons he might not be scum, one of which is his posting style with bigass walls of text catchup, while criticising me for having a weak scum-read on Creature but admitting that part of my issue could just be his posting style

Do you not see the contradiction there

KidDamn are you saying it's a contradiction because he gave case for both scum and town Kop or are you saying it's a contradiction because you think it's hypocritical line of thinking?

It's hypocritical. It's saying "Kid doing this thing [giving reasons why my read on Creature might not have been the strongest] is bad" and then turning around and calling Fitz (not Kop, that was a mistype on my part) scum but following it up with "but here's a bunch of reasons my read on him isn't as strong as on Kid"

He's Open 658ing.

More meta stuff?? Okay BRB gotta go read another game to get a read on a player this game

Seriously is that the only reason? also if I'm misunderstanding what you are saying let me know.

Open 658 was a game I played in which both Aubrey and Creature also played. I was NKed N1. Havingfitz later replaced in and won as scum with BK201 and Gamma Emerald; I don't believe I ever actually interacted with him that game. Unfortunately, day 1 lasted for 42 pages.

12) Flubbernugget

doomfeathers

lynched day 5 - Vanilla Townie

So you replaced out and your slot died D5 to a lynch. Why exactly would you lie about that?

Not gonna lie my enthusiasm for this game has been fucking tanked by the amount of other games and off-site games and "oh-ho-ho I know what he does because of playing on another site and here is a wall of text about it".

What's more likely here? That I went into this game screaming at my team to bus me? Or that there are quite a few mafia members suspicious of me for super sketchy reasons that don't make sense anymore.

It's very clear that Cassielle is mafia. How she's tunneling me is not confirmation bias. She's suspicious of me because it's the popular thing to do, and never had any interest in figuring out my alignment.

Or you're her strongest scum-read and she wants to get the wagon on you to the end on a long D1. Not to mention that the scum having day-talk makes your first point null and void since as the wagon on you grew you could very easily as scum say to your team "bus me while looking for other wagons we can derail on in case the town can't finish the job here". Also, repeatedly stating "there's no real case on me whaarblgarble ur all trash" does not make this true.

[Rels]

KidDamn
Kop ?
Woonjin ?
Is what I imagine is the team

[Rels]

Kop and Woonjin both had ONE thing I found townie. But multiple things I fuond scummy.

[Rels]

Yeah KidDamn is the most liekly to flip scum. So bad

[Rels]

K I'm going to sleep. Gonna be in NZ over the weekend so I might be V/LA, maybe I'll have time to post, maybe not. See you the latest on Monday

[Rels]

No lynch over the week end pretty please. Let's decide that start of the week

[Rels]

we have until tuesday if I got it right

[Rels]

I'm here. I quick read evertyhing I've missed. And I don't know what to do. I spent a lot of time thinking about hte game when I was driving from NL to France and I'm pretty lost. I have lots of townread and my only scumreads are lackluster people, and it seems too easy

[Rels]

About Hapa, I'm still doubting. But if it stays that way he shouyld definitely be the lynch. He's definitely missing something - but what I don't understand if he's scum is that he had a good come back. Good cases. The hard stuff was done and he just had to put effort to survive easily - and he didn't. I don't get it

[Rels]

oh well I'm seeing we still have 30 hours to decide. In TL it's more than half of a day phase

[Rels]

@Rels, can you go over your first impression from your catchup and what reads you have outside of Hap?

My impressions ?
You are town. You make smart posts.
Cassielle is town. He makes dumb posts but he believes in them is trying to solve the game.
Creature is town. He still does not care about anything than auto-winning the game.
Hawk might not be town. He seems on the edge of things. ISO read needed there.

[Rels]

ooo read on me and Hapa is also townie. He seems as lost as me

[Rels]

voilà. I wanna reread lots of stuff with more care but I won't do it tonight as I'm pretty tired I was out drinking and my head hurts

[Rels]

Hawk's reflections seem town to me. What do you think of 659? Also, read on Aubrey would be nice. I'm concerned that his laid back attitude towards the lynch might be scum. Not in a "lost" way as you and outoforder. It's more like he doesn't really care what happens at a time when most town are trying to secure a lynch we can live with.

This post is townie. Not impossible for scum to make by any mean but it's worth town points. But catching up I didn't like his posts - will have to reread to see.
Aubrey I dunno, I townread him early. He was pushing the game forward when nobody did if I remember right

[Rels]

Can you elaborate a bit more on your Cass townread? I could see some of her posts being town but that pretty much evaporated based on her play around the Hap wagon. It was really odd that she comes into the game, tunnels Hap, jumps onto the budding KidAmn wagon, jumps onto your wagon, etc. It feels like opportunistic scum creating a smoke-screen more than town trying to solve the game.

She looks more dumb town than smoke screen scum to me. Scum usually are less volatile than that.

[Rels]

k you got me. I'm reading

[Rels]

also the number of wagons and wagon makeup tells me that no scum are on kop's wagon. anyone have any theories as to why that is?

I'd say because Kop is scum, but you're not scumreading him, so that's not going to be your answer. Are they pocketing him?

no. i honestly dont have a clue why it would be the case and it doesnt sit right -- the scum would want to be on the top two wagons, but i dont see scum being in (doomfeathers,Aubrey,Hawk)

i do see scum being in (rels,hapa) and i am absolutely 100% certain theres scum in hapa's wagon

so something is strange. i would be willing to push kops wagon if hapa makes a good (really good) showing in the near future. the "tipping point" will certainly be instructive

like this. So certain of this dumb logic. It's so weird that I feel it's more likely it's town having a certain logic than scum appearing to scumhunt

[Rels]

Following say we have: saying we should stay on Hapa. Saying Kop could be a back up lynch. Then actually townreading Kop. Then voting on KidDamn and having a big post on him. Then unvoting and townreading him.
It goes on. Pretty sure she's town.

[Rels]

I'm really interested in how you think she arrived at the logic in 891. That's the one that made me think "holy crap, this is scum."

Talking about "let's try to lynch Rels, but if the lynch have resistance let's get back to Hapa" right ?
Yeah this is dumb. But what she's probably saying is that having a no-lynch is bad so if I end up not having enough votes to get lynched, Hapa should get lynched so there is no no-lynch

[Rels]

Yeah, the part I don't get is why if she thinks Hap is 100% scum (which by the way is itself weird to have that much confidence), she'd even consider voting anyone other than Hap.

Two things:
- town are way more likely to waffle than scum.
- so -his line of thought only makes Cassy more scum IF Hapa is scum with her. But given their interactions, I don't think they're ever a team. Hapa spent quite a bit of time fighting Cass, at a time where he had his good comeback; I don't think they are partners for that.

[Rels]

KidDamn's ISO is still so horrible. The dream scenario is that Hapa flips scum. Given that Hapa did his counter attack on KidDamn it's another person that is unliekly to be partner with him

[Rels]

I see what you're saying about Aubrey. Pretty laid back attitude. Trying at the same time to talk about stuff but perfectly OK sitting on Hapa not really moving.

Kinda deflecting:

I doubt Hapa's personal goal is to get lynched. To whoever suggested that.

You're probably expecting more from me than what you're going to get today. It's day one. I'm in the headspace that as long as a null or scum-lean gets lynched, I'm happy. If people start trying to direct wagons on people that I feel are likely town, then that's another story and I'll be rather proactive against it. Normally I am a bit more vocal and forceful in my reads, even with the headspace that I go about day 1. However to be frank, I'm kinda detached from this game a bit. More than normal. That being said, I don't think it is bad enough to replace out just yet and I'm invested enough to continue commenting with my general thoughts.

--

I currently don't have significant town reads on either slot right now regarding Hapa or Rels. I do however find it silly to think Rels is scum based on association of Scum!Hapa without lynching Hapa first. Should you be wrong on Hapa's alignment, then your read on Rels can also easily be wrong. This idea of being 100% correct on a read (Hapa) makes me laugh, and the idea of lynching someone other than your strongest scum read (only to go back to that same read tomorrow regardless of the Day 1 flip) makes me laugh harder. I'm not in support of a Rels lynch, over a Hapa lynch, if the reasoning is mostly based on association with a scum!Hapa (which is what it seems to be). Those who think otherwise worry me. Especially when they keep Hapa open to lynch, but highly prefer and support the Rels lynch on association with Hapa. I'd rather see these two wagons pushed for independent reasons rather than associative reasons pre flip. To prefer the Rels lynch is just to me personally.

I flip flop with Hapa, but between the two likely lynches to occur I pick Hapa over Rels. VOTE: Hapa.

There is only 1 thing that makes me think Hapa could be town.

Quick dumb question that I can't wrap my mind around. Why would Scum!Hapa remotely defend the counterwagon on him (Kop) way back when? If I'm scum getting my ass handed to me it seems by the town, THE LAST THING i'm going to do is remotely defend any wagon that could possibly save my life.

Like, it just doesn't make sense at all to me. I want to say he maybe town, but I'm so fucking conflicted. I also have no idea why people thought that he was articulating his own lynch.

Hapa showed no emotion early when he was pressured by rayn; and again now he's defending himself A LOT, but in the bad sense of the way. Pushing the "EVERYBODY SCUMREADS ME FOR NO R4EASON" without showing he's pissed

Hapa read robotic to me for a bit in the beginning of the game, but this mid point of Day 1 he seems pissed to me. Getting pissed is NAI, but it does lead me down the path of believing that it is not his goal to get lynched at all. All that talk about him planning his D1 lynch, and having his scum bus him, is out the door. Should he be scum, and scum are bussing him, he isn't planning it behind the scenes. It would be happening organically. Or he is town fighting for his life.

I mentioned that here.

--

Sadly, nobody else seems like they are going to get lynched beyond him and Reels, and I don't have a strong case I can articulate on anybody right now. I'm not going to vote Rels since it seems largely revolved around an associative flip from Hapa. This in turn concerns me since people are willing to lynch him over Hapa (or they prefer him, but keep Hapa open to lynch). This is something that should be discussed post flip, or he should be a lynch candidate based on his actions alone without the need (or the base of) of an associative flip.

Most of the things I seem to disagree with regarding Hapa seem to stem from Cass somewhat.

But still sitting on the lynch and not really considering other options.

[Rels]

Well I think it's obvious there is likely no scum connection between BlackVoid and Rels. Can we lynch tonight?

what a great example of what I've just said. p:
Nope we're not lynching tonight. Why would we when we have 30+ hours still ? Only time when it's beneficial to lynch early is when no one is talking anymore. And I know at least I want more time

[Rels]

Well, currently my reads are at Hap + Cass + someone else, possibly Aubrey as the scumteam. Cassielle replacing in with an odd confidence in a Hap scumflip but wanting to lynch Creature first actually fits in really well as partners. Then Hap and Cass have a scum theater showdown (by the way, I've read on a TeamLiquid forum that Hap likes bussing). Then you tell Hap to back off and he "re-evaluates" Cass. Cass then continues with the confident Hap push but suddenly votes KidAmn as the wagon is building. If she was so confident in Hap-scum, wouldn't she be wary of voting Hap's biggest push? KidAmn and Hap were pretty opposed to each other. Then she switches back to Hap. Then as a Rels wagon builds up, she votes you, calls Hap 100% scum and says that if anyone refuses to vote you, they are stalling. So, yeah my theory is that they are partners and tried to do a bus showdown but that Cass is terrible at making it convincing.

Does Cass have an history of being a thread shaker as scum ? 'cause her attitude is hard to do as scum. Being thread leader that is

[Rels]

Okay I look forward to you putting forth some content tonight then.

Pedit: I want to take your word for it but I don't see why it would be hard as scum because as far as I know Creature apparently comes into his own more d2?

We will see I guess. But I'm gonna dig the ISO's a bit.

You're talking about Creature's ISO there ? Did you actually read it ?

[Rels]

VOTE: KidDamn I agree that we can always come back to Hapa if we have too because his lynch even if he is town is informative. But like creature and Cass have kinda pointed out day is winding down we need to pressure and get people talking. Apathy will kill this town. I've played games where apathy kills town.

UNVOTE:

I need to reread and reevaluate. I like BV's effort. Solid town vibes from that read list also Hella a whole lot better than Moogin was. Hapa scumread feels more genuinely thought out then the Meta stuff OoO and Rels were feeding early game.

What happened to your KidDamn scumread between these ?

[Rels]

yeah I really dislike Hawk later posts. More than I thought actually. Lots of it look fake to me

[Rels]

VOTE: KidDamn I agree that we can always come back to Hapa if we have too because his lynch even if he is town is informative. But like creature and Cass have kinda pointed out day is winding down we need to pressure and get people talking. Apathy will kill this town. I've played games where apathy kills town.

You can come back to Hapa, but you're voting Hapa's biggest scumread to pressure them ?

@Hawk - how did you go from "Hap looks the worst of the three TL players and Rels is my backup," and saying that you are "okay with a Hap lynch, look at Rels if he's scum" to voting Rels? Then you say you are concerned that Kop is pushing Rels and that you could see Hap/Kop or Hap/Rels. Based on all of this, you should be voting Hap so I have no idea how you winded up with a Rels vote.

You distinctly left off a grand portion of my sentiments there including that I feel like of the three Hapa looks the worst but is also the one being pressured most and could be BEING SETUP either for a bus or a ML. Look at how OoO and Rels initially pressure and vote Hapa then Rels backs off from one reentering post by Hapa. At first during the day I dismissed almost that entire section of the read to being meta driven TL stuff but now that you pointed out more concisely that I can see a case for Hapa that isn't meta driven I'm worried that the Meta read from Rels and subsequent back off is either setting up Hapa as a Bus or as a ML.

Like Hapa's wagon has 0 resistance, (asside from me town reading his AtE earlier.) No one is actively saying we shouldnt vote Hapa except for Hapa. That is like giant red warning signals flashing for me and I think since Hapa isn't going anywhere and we can just lynch him tomorrow even if it doesn't go anywhere applying pressure and possibly lynching associatives can put town one step closer to finding all 3 scum.

I mean say we lynch Hapa today no question to Rels motivations for saying no wait stop or Kops motivations to voting Rels instead of Hapa or anything Cass is doing or anything else. If Hapa flips town now where are we. Pushing Rels cause he called Hapa town? Pushing Cass, Creature, KidDamn and Everyone else who said Hapa is scum? oh wait that's everyone (sans kinda Rels and maybe OoO?) Yeah I'm fairly certain Hapa will flip scum but I want more traction laid down by Rels and everyone else who has any motivations for not lynching Hapa. They have to be accountable whether he flips scum (likely) or flips town (unlikely).

Like this isn't us pushing a mislynch. We probably lynch Hapa today.

But we have time. We still have what 2 days to talk? And OoO still hasn't really weighed back in besides a redux back onto Fitz which doesn't sit well with me either.

Pedit: I'll respond to Fitz in a minute. I'm just worried that Rels who seems to be the most active TL member who seems to TR Hapa and I want to know why.

This is so weirdly phrased. First, you're pushing things "for info", but you admit in your POV we're almost always lynching Hapa today; it's weird ?
Second, it looks like a slip. "I'm voting Rels but I'm not pushing for a mislynch because I will get back on Hapa". LOL it really looks like you're saying you KNOW I'm a mislynch and Hapa is not.

Lastly, these two posts seem super logical at first but do 0 thing to push the game forward:

Meta is NAI for me so when people use Meta to create cases I'm usually very suspect of them. The case in particular from OoO and Rels against Hapa was even harder to decipher because I have no experience with any of them and I didn't want to go digging around another site to even get a gleam of another players meta. So I took that with a huge grain of salt. Early on Rels and OoO seemed townish to me. OoO moreso than Rels I guess but it doesn't really matter. So when Hapa responds and is subsequently no longer scumread by OoO or Rels I find it odd and make a mental note but don't pay attention to it. Rest of the day Hapa continues to be a large target by the entire player base so I cant really ignore him but I have a hard time separating the meta case and think you know there has to be a reason Hapa looks town to OoO and Rels right? can't just be meta. Some of what he's done is objectively scummy. His AtE feels like it could come from town to me especially since he's been under a laser microscope all game long.

So when you post a nicer more concise scumread on Hapa that is objectively found I think I can get behind the idea but that dismissal still sticks in my mind and I'm trying to sort it.

So here's where I'm at. I think Hapa is scum. Cass and others have voiced that Hapa can be lynched today. Sweet don't have to worry there I can flip onto Hapa when I need to to help push the lynch through.

So now my question is why is Rels still town reading Hapa or at least not voting them. And why did both Rels and OoO let go of their case on Hapa so readily. What's the motivation. I can see how Rels could be scummy or even scum associated with Hapa.

So heres some scenarios and normally d1 I hate making lots of assumptions but I feel a need to sort this today for some reason.

If OoO's push is town motivated.
1. If Rels is scum.
a. If Hapa is town then Rels is pushing and backing off feels super weird and I'm not sure if they thought they could push a mislynch and the authentically thought that Hapa's response was good enough or not.
b. Hapa is scum then Rels is bussing first to look town and backing off to reinforce incase scumteam can save Hapa.

2. If Rels is town.
a. Hapa is town then Rels back off is warranted and meta read is fine despite looking objectively scummy or null.
b. Hapa is scum and successfully fool'd Rels but not other people.

And those are just if OoO is town. If OoO is scum (unlikely) there's a large subsection of things but the simplest solutions say there is only 1-2 scum in that trio.

My gut won't let me get rid of Hapa's AtE and frustration at the KidDamn counterbalance. But my head says Hapa is scum and Rels may potentially be a partner.

Hopefully that answers your question BV now here's something for Rels.

@Rels you are not voting Hapa. Do you still think Hapa is town? If so why? Please provide some objective based reasons even if it's not many.

I don't see why Rels thinking Hap is some God makes his relent on Hap any less or any more likely to come from scum!Rels if town!Hap.

Like if anything don't you think that If Rels is scum and Hap is town that Rels doesn't care how Hap pushes back and even if he pushes back in not so great way relenting buys him towncred. Like this.

Scum!Rels: Hap isn't playing well he's normally much better! Must be scum!
Town!Hap: "Response that is not entirely objectively towny or could be faked by scum"
Scum!Rels: Welcome to the Game Hap (unvote)

Everyone else goes wait Hap doesn't look town vote Hap. At which point Rels can eventually push back onto Hap. If Hap flips town he can be like see told you so guys. No reason to SR me.

I'd Hap is also scum then Rels can be like oops I guess he fooled me. (this I'd where I think it's unlikely)

So no I don't think it being one sided makes it more or less likely that Hap is scum. Hap might genuinely be fooled by Rels if he is town.

As well if you had a player that you thought had a very good town game and you rolled scum and he maybe just played poorly for a moment you don't think you'd set him up especially if the case is meta driven?

[Rels]

Cause it's obvious Hapa is the lynch of the day. Nobody else is going to get lynched. He is the scummiest looking and everybody else has to many if's and but's.

To be voting people like Kop Fitz and anybody else is a complete and total waste unless it is between you and him. The lynch is between you and Hapa for the day and that is a fact. I've made my decision.

Well you don't decide the lynch, and I don't know how is it there but last-minute switch are frequent in TL, especially day 1. And I forgot about Kop actually, either he AFKed for several days or I missed his posts

[Rels]

I echo the thoughts of Cassielle regarding Rels.

It would be beneficial if we got a flip on either Hapa or rels, but I am feeling rels more than Hapa at the minute. His whole push on Hapa, and that question that I questioned and a few others he just wouldn't reveal what he intended, it just felt that he was setting Hapa up to suspect then back off when Hapa came into the game properly. I get a strong sense of feeling that it's either bussing, or classic distancing if one was to flip later in the game. It looks worse with Rels backing out of it, which also points to that if Hapa flips town, Rels gains town credit because he can actually safely say well I felt that he was town because of his responses and there isn't any backlash towards Rel because of it.

Just it doesn't feel right anymore, my slight town read that I got has gone.

With scum having day talk, it could have easily been orchestrated and co-ordinated without having to work hard at it, if Hapa flips scum, it would point me heavily towards Rel again.

Taking Rel out would answer a lot towards my thoughts towards Hapa, it could make me think twice in regards to him.

How so ? Reading your post it seems like:
- if I flip scum, Hapa is more likely to be scum because "it's either bussing, or classic distancing if one was to flip later in the game"
- if I flip town, ? I guess Hapa is more likely to be scum 'cause one of us is likely scum in your mind ?
So how do me flipping makes you think twice about Hapa ? Since in the two scenarios Hapa is more likely scum ?
And then you're saying "if Hapa flips town, Rels gains town credit because he can actually safely say well I felt that he was town because of his responses" ? But I thought you were saying one of us being scum incriminated the other ? But if Hapa is town I'm also more likely to be scum ?

I don't understand your logic at all. Please expand

[Rels]

You seriously think someone other than Hapa or yourself will get enough momentum to be a serious candidate for today? I think not.

well of course it is possible. If it's not then then this forum is quite bad at mafia

[Rels]

I think scum is in (KidDamn / Hapa) / Kop / Aubrey / Hawk.

[Rels]

I'm also OK with an Hapa lynch atm.

[Rels]

K I'm going to sleep. TY BV for making my wake up tomorrow hard ... for real TY for making me play <3 I'm beginning to have a clearer view of the game now

[Rels]

Hap was online this morning but never checked in. I have some paranoia about being wrong here but on balance, that's the best achievable lynch that's likely to flip scum. Thinking Aubrey is scum regardless of flip. Cass is scum with a Hap scumflip.

lol how do you check this ? And yeah Hapa is the best lynch right now. I have my doubts but something as simple as his inability to fight the pressure is pretty scum indicative - his town game is way better than his scum game

[Rels]

Interfering with people's sleep schedules is my favorite part of mafia!

Just click on a player's profile. At the bottom right, you'll see "search user's posts" and "view their topics." The first one gives you a list of the most recent posts a player made regardless of what thread it was in. The second gives you a list of threads that the player has posted in.

But how do you check that he was logged in but didn't post anything ?

[Rels]

Oh I got it actually. "last visited"

[Rels]

Well, he was prodded in this game at 9AM PST. At 9:45 or so, he posted in a different game but not here. If you look at his "search user posts." So, obviously he was online if he made any post at all.

Well he also was online until 30 minutes apparently:
"Last visited:Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:10 am"
For the comparaison it's 1:44 AM right now here

[Rels]

Some Kop and Rels...and Doom thoughts on shit would be good.

what I posted last night didn't suffice ?

[Rels]

I was confident before because all of Aubrey's reactions to me hadn't sunk in at that point.

I didn't say anything about your reservations about an Aubrey lynch. I'm saying the reasoning you used "I can't see Aubrey get frustrated like this as town" is made-up reasoning. If anything town are more likely than scum to be frustrated. It looked like you cobbled together whatever you could at that moment to hop onto a lynch wagon.

OMG town tunnel comf!bias everybody.

I say I don't see Aubrey getting frustrated "like this" as town! Aubrey was frustrated by the gamestate and everyone waffling about. I'm referring to this post 1175 . This is not town this is scum.

He's all woe is me I'm getting lynched cause people are fuckwads.

You're fucking head up your ass town just like Aubrey said. You decide to waffle on Hapa and try so hard to find a lynch off wagon. Reserved that Hapa lynch isn't happening you're pressuring Aubrey to the point of insanity and then when his lynch hits L-2 and no one else is voting (specifically OoO isn't wowed by it) You go. no wait! What about Hawk. Hawk is sus because he is saying the same thing I've been fucking saying just from his PoV.

There is literally 1 person and 1 vote on you. That is way over reacted

[Rels]

Hawk can I have your answer on these that you didn't answer:

Okay I look forward to you putting forth some content tonight then.

Pedit: I want to take your word for it but I don't see why it would be hard as scum because as far as I know Creature apparently comes into his own more d2?

We will see I guess. But I'm gonna dig the ISO's a bit.

You're talking about Creature's ISO there ? Did you actually read it ?

VOTE: KidDamn I agree that we can always come back to Hapa if we have too because his lynch even if he is town is informative. But like creature and Cass have kinda pointed out day is winding down we need to pressure and get people talking. Apathy will kill this town. I've played games where apathy kills town.

UNVOTE:

I need to reread and reevaluate. I like BV's effort. Solid town vibes from that read list also Hella a whole lot better than Moogin was. Hapa scumread feels more genuinely thought out then the Meta stuff OoO and Rels were feeding early game.

What happened to your KidDamn scumread between these ?

VOTE: KidDamn I agree that we can always come back to Hapa if we have too because his lynch even if he is town is informative. But like creature and Cass have kinda pointed out day is winding down we need to pressure and get people talking. Apathy will kill this town. I've played games where apathy kills town.

You can come back to Hapa, but you're voting Hapa's biggest scumread to pressure them ?

@Hawk - how did you go from "Hap looks the worst of the three TL players and Rels is my backup," and saying that you are "okay with a Hap lynch, look at Rels if he's scum" to voting Rels? Then you say you are concerned that Kop is pushing Rels and that you could see Hap/Kop or Hap/Rels. Based on all of this, you should be voting Hap so I have no idea how you winded up with a Rels vote.

You distinctly left off a grand portion of my sentiments there including that I feel like of the three Hapa looks the worst but is also the one being pressured most and could be BEING SETUP either for a bus or a ML. Look at how OoO and Rels initially pressure and vote Hapa then Rels backs off from one reentering post by Hapa. At first during the day I dismissed almost that entire section of the read to being meta driven TL stuff but now that you pointed out more concisely that I can see a case for Hapa that isn't meta driven I'm worried that the Meta read from Rels and subsequent back off is either setting up Hapa as a Bus or as a ML.

Like Hapa's wagon has 0 resistance, (asside from me town reading his AtE earlier.) No one is actively saying we shouldnt vote Hapa except for Hapa. That is like giant red warning signals flashing for me and I think since Hapa isn't going anywhere and we can just lynch him tomorrow even if it doesn't go anywhere applying pressure and possibly lynching associatives can put town one step closer to finding all 3 scum.

I mean say we lynch Hapa today no question to Rels motivations for saying no wait stop or Kops motivations to voting Rels instead of Hapa or anything Cass is doing or anything else. If Hapa flips town now where are we. Pushing Rels cause he called Hapa town? Pushing Cass, Creature, KidDamn and Everyone else who said Hapa is scum? oh wait that's everyone (sans kinda Rels and maybe OoO?) Yeah I'm fairly certain Hapa will flip scum but I want more traction laid down by Rels and everyone else who has any motivations for not lynching Hapa. They have to be accountable whether he flips scum (likely) or flips town (unlikely).

Like this isn't us pushing a mislynch. We probably lynch Hapa today.

But we have time. We still have what 2 days to talk? And OoO still hasn't really weighed back in besides a redux back onto Fitz which doesn't sit well with me either.

Pedit: I'll respond to Fitz in a minute. I'm just worried that Rels who seems to be the most active TL member who seems to TR Hapa and I want to know why.

This is so weirdly phrased. First, you're pushing things "for info", but you admit in your POV we're almost always lynching Hapa today; it's weird ?
Second, it looks like a slip. "I'm voting Rels but I'm not pushing for a mislynch because I will get back on Hapa". LOL it really looks like you're saying you KNOW I'm a mislynch and Hapa is not.

Lastly, these two posts seem super logical at first but do 0 thing to push the game forward:

Meta is NAI for me so when people use Meta to create cases I'm usually very suspect of them. The case in particular from OoO and Rels against Hapa was even harder to decipher because I have no experience with any of them and I didn't want to go digging around another site to even get a gleam of another players meta. So I took that with a huge grain of salt. Early on Rels and OoO seemed townish to me. OoO moreso than Rels I guess but it doesn't really matter. So when Hapa responds and is subsequently no longer scumread by OoO or Rels I find it odd and make a mental note but don't pay attention to it. Rest of the day Hapa continues to be a large target by the entire player base so I cant really ignore him but I have a hard time separating the meta case and think you know there has to be a reason Hapa looks town to OoO and Rels right? can't just be meta. Some of what he's done is objectively scummy. His AtE feels like it could come from town to me especially since he's been under a laser microscope all game long.

So when you post a nicer more concise scumread on Hapa that is objectively found I think I can get behind the idea but that dismissal still sticks in my mind and I'm trying to sort it.

So here's where I'm at. I think Hapa is scum. Cass and others have voiced that Hapa can be lynched today. Sweet don't have to worry there I can flip onto Hapa when I need to to help push the lynch through.

So now my question is why is Rels still town reading Hapa or at least not voting them. And why did both Rels and OoO let go of their case on Hapa so readily. What's the motivation. I can see how Rels could be scummy or even scum associated with Hapa.

So heres some scenarios and normally d1 I hate making lots of assumptions but I feel a need to sort this today for some reason.

If OoO's push is town motivated.
1. If Rels is scum.
a. If Hapa is town then Rels is pushing and backing off feels super weird and I'm not sure if they thought they could push a mislynch and the authentically thought that Hapa's response was good enough or not.
b. Hapa is scum then Rels is bussing first to look town and backing off to reinforce incase scumteam can save Hapa.

2. If Rels is town.
a. Hapa is town then Rels back off is warranted and meta read is fine despite looking objectively scummy or null.
b. Hapa is scum and successfully fool'd Rels but not other people.

And those are just if OoO is town. If OoO is scum (unlikely) there's a large subsection of things but the simplest solutions say there is only 1-2 scum in that trio.

My gut won't let me get rid of Hapa's AtE and frustration at the KidDamn counterbalance. But my head says Hapa is scum and Rels may potentially be a partner.

Hopefully that answers your question BV now here's something for Rels.

@Rels you are not voting Hapa. Do you still think Hapa is town? If so why? Please provide some objective based reasons even if it's not many.

I don't see why Rels thinking Hap is some God makes his relent on Hap any less or any more likely to come from scum!Rels if town!Hap.

Like if anything don't you think that If Rels is scum and Hap is town that Rels doesn't care how Hap pushes back and even if he pushes back in not so great way relenting buys him towncred. Like this.

Scum!Rels: Hap isn't playing well he's normally much better! Must be scum!
Town!Hap: "Response that is not entirely objectively towny or could be faked by scum"
Scum!Rels: Welcome to the Game Hap (unvote)

Everyone else goes wait Hap doesn't look town vote Hap. At which point Rels can eventually push back onto Hap. If Hap flips town he can be like see told you so guys. No reason to SR me.

I'd Hap is also scum then Rels can be like oops I guess he fooled me. (this I'd where I think it's unlikely)

So no I don't think it being one sided makes it more or less likely that Hap is scum. Hap might genuinely be fooled by Rels if he is town.

As well if you had a player that you thought had a very good town game and you rolled scum and he maybe just played poorly for a moment you don't think you'd set him up especially if the case is meta driven?

[Rels]

I will if you clean it up a bit rels. Just post the questions and use the post tag I will look at them when I get the chance.

just go to the post then
viewtopic.php?p=8925594#p8925594

viewtopic.php?p=8925604#p8925604

viewtopic.php?p=8925604#p8925604

[Rels]

viewtopic.php?p=8925637#p8925637

[Rels]

I'm back to KidDamn or Kop as my favorite lynches. Kop more than KidDamn TBH

[Rels]

I echo the thoughts of Cassielle regarding Rels.

It would be beneficial if we got a flip on either Hapa or rels, but I am feeling rels more than Hapa at the minute. His whole push on Hapa, and that question that I questioned and a few others he just wouldn't reveal what he intended, it just felt that he was setting Hapa up to suspect then back off when Hapa came into the game properly. I get a strong sense of feeling that it's either bussing, or classic distancing if one was to flip later in the game. It looks worse with Rels backing out of it, which also points to that if Hapa flips town, Rels gains town credit because he can actually safely say well I felt that he was town because of his responses and there isn't any backlash towards Rel because of it.

Just it doesn't feel right anymore, my slight town read that I got has gone.

With scum having day talk, it could have easily been orchestrated and co-ordinated without having to work hard at it, if Hapa flips scum, it would point me heavily towards Rel again.

Taking Rel out would answer a lot towards my thoughts towards Hapa, it could make me think twice in regards to him.

How so ? Reading your post it seems like:
- if I flip scum, Hapa is more likely to be scum because "it's either bussing, or classic distancing if one was to flip later in the game"
- if I flip town, ? I guess Hapa is more likely to be scum 'cause one of us is likely scum in your mind ?
So how do me flipping makes you think twice about Hapa ? Since in the two scenarios Hapa is more likely scum ?
And then you're saying "if Hapa flips town, Rels gains town credit because he can actually safely say well I felt that he was town because of his responses" ? But I thought you were saying one of us being scum incriminated the other ? But if Hapa is town I'm also more likely to be scum ?

I don't understand your logic at all. Please expand

This post in particular made no sense at all.

[Rels]

I thought Hawk posts just now were townie. In his position as scum I would have get the fuck out of the thread and waited for deadline. This is townie:

I was confident before because all of Aubrey's reactions to me hadn't sunk in at that point.

I didn't say anything about your reservations about an Aubrey lynch. I'm saying the reasoning you used "I can't see Aubrey get frustrated like this as town" is made-up reasoning. If anything town are more likely than scum to be frustrated. It looked like you cobbled together whatever you could at that moment to hop onto a lynch wagon.

OMG town tunnel comf!bias everybody.

I say I don't see Aubrey getting frustrated "like this" as town! Aubrey was frustrated by the gamestate and everyone waffling about. I'm referring to this post 1175 . This is not town this is scum.

He's all woe is me I'm getting lynched cause people are fuckwads.

You're fucking head up your ass town just like Aubrey said. You decide to waffle on Hapa and try so hard to find a lynch off wagon. Reserved that Hapa lynch isn't happening you're pressuring Aubrey to the point of insanity and then when his lynch hits L-2 and no one else is voting (specifically OoO isn't wowed by it) You go. no wait! What about Hawk. Hawk is sus because he is saying the same thing I've been fucking saying just from his PoV.

There is literally 1 person and 1 vote on you. That is way over reacted

I'm talking about Aubrey not me there.

And yes I'm probably overreacting because this morning I woke up to us considering an Aubrey lynch over a Hapa lynch and after deliberating I went with my gut a bit here and am now being scumread for it -_-;;

Aubrey madness seemed genuine too. Contrary to what a lot of people said.

[Rels]

I prefer a Kop lynch by faaaaaaaar.
UNVOTE: KidDamn
VOTE: Kop

[Rels]

Kop has been a non-entity most of the game. Had very "on the side" posts at the beginning of the game. And voted me when my wagon was popular with a weird logic that doesn't make any sense.
Reread the post above. He's only voting me only because of association with Hapa. But whatever I flip Hapa is still more likely scum. Whatever Hapa flips I'm still more likjley scum. This mindset doesn't make sense

[Rels]

Did you miss the bolded sentence or what

[Rels]

Actually that Kop makes perfect sense. I just read it. He's saying that you backing off of Hap was weird and indicated that either you were distancing from a partner and then backed off OR you pushed a town-Hap and then backed off for the towncred. In either scenario, you are scum so he votes you. Fairly straightforward logic.

And it ends with "Taking Rel out would answer a lot towards my thoughts towards Hapa, it could make me think twice in regards to him."
How ? Since as you've just said my alignment doesn't change Hapa's

[Rels]

this is annoying. I'm gonna go to sleep soon and I don't wanna waste my vote

[Rels]

@Rels, I'll tell you what: vote Hawk with me today and I'll promise to give your Kop case a really close look tomorrow.

???? that doesn't make sense at all, both Kop and Hawk have 1 vote right now, what's stopping you from re assessing Kop now ?

[Rels]

meh. It's true Hawk's recent posts wouldn't be hard to make as scum

[Rels]

UNVOTE: Kop
VOTE: Hawk
Good night

[Rels]

yo

[Rels]

I agree Hapa looks the worst in the game right now. It feels superficial.
The jump on rayn first, for which he changed his reasonning.
Then the thing on KidDamn, where he attacked him on something pretty weak and got convinced super easily, when Kiddamn just repeated things he's said before.
Finally this vote havingfitz. The vote in itself in not weird, havingfitz is definitely lackluster. But it's an easy vote. Like the things above.
I'm not seeing "obvious town" Hapa from last game. Though last game it took half of D1 for him to appear.

I mean this post in itself is so fucking scummy it hurts

lol p: it's not though

[Rels]

forgot to say Creature went from scum to super town during that time in Rels' mind.

yep he did

[Rels]

Another fact is that Rels ignores me and my stuff basically ONLY when i am accusing his scumbuddy. I also know this doesn't apply here unless havingfitz is mafia, so there you go.

yeah TBH I'm still not sure why you're scumreading fitz. Will go have alook after I'm caught up

[Rels]

Btw i still think havingfitz is scum. I went to reread his filter and what he basically did in his wall of text was this:\
- I don't like wall of texts -> writes a wall of text -> the conclusion he ends up in is "now let me continue and post my reads later".......

VOTE: havingfitz

this is it ?

[Rels]

You scumread Creature and you are scumreading hapa.

Your information must be pretty old. Cassielle hasn't been scumreading Creature for a while.

There is nothing in her filter between those posts. There is no "oh i changed my mind, i think this is the truth instead". Just a scumread on hapa + creature and then a vote on kidam while no reasoning why the read on the earlier two has changed.

Havingfitz is scum though. Deflecting a case on him based on nothing that was on the case != "here is why you are wrong". It is "i am discrediting you gor other atuff because i cant prove you are wrong".

Go read his wot and then compare it with what i said. Please.

Does noone find anything wrong in fitz complaining about wot's in a wot that ends up in no conclusions? And then trying to fend off the suspicion because of something else i did (instead of elaborating on the obvious contradiction).

meh meh meh. Not convincing. Then you're just repeating "we should vote fitz for the reaosns I stated before" when it's just that.

[Rels]

Hey Rels, while you are here, can you go over if your reads have changed at all after seeing Hawk's flip and if you got any new reads from how the end of day went down. In particular, I'm scumreading HavingFitz for pushing the Kop wagon as an alternative to Hawk and I think Kop is probably town for being a counterwagon to scum and I'd like your thoughts on that. Also, wouldn't mind hearing your best guesses for who the remaining two scum are.

Reading Hawk's ISO right now. You can stop being my cheerleader now, D1 is over now I will begin solving the game my way (= I won't be inactive starting now.
My reads haven't changed for now but aren't really cemented either. You became conf town, OOO is super likely town, Hapa is likely town. I didn't have the impression that Kop was being pushed as a counterwagon that much, I was trying to get him lynched at some point and didn't succeed. Gotta read exactly what happened though.

[Rels]

and fucking WP on pushing Hawk. I had him too but then became doubtful over some shitty posts

[Rels]

Can anyone help me with my homework about Modern Times film? It's for tomorrow.

it's an old movie

[Rels]

you're welcome

[Rels]

Post #348
Immediately attacks doom after entering the thread with an in length post. Low probability of them being partners.

Post #356
Votes Moogin (now BV) while explaining his reasons to scumread Kop in the same post. Maybe a parnter indicator on Kop / Hawk.

Even early in his ISO, lots of interactions with OOO. It's a not-partner indicator.

Post #462
Baby is born! Gratz again (=

Post #588
Voting Kop while kinda townreading him : "Idk where I'm sitting anymore but I actually quite liked Kops response to Doom and his case against him. I don't like that Kop isn't voting it takes a lot of the oomph out of his rebuttal :/. Kop what are you thinking? Who's scummy? " Weird thing. Could be him voting his partner while giving him an out. Or could be him weakly voting a scummy townie. No tell there.

Post #789
Over attacking KidDamn for being scummy as hell ? Kinda makes KidDamn town probably

mm. Actually saying multiple times Hapa is scummy but NEVER voting for him. But keeping him as a back lynch. Saying stuff like "we sqhould go back on Hapa if we have nothing better". But his vote is on other people. Me. Then Aubrey when BV started pushing that.
Starting with this post in his filter. He's treating Hapa like someone who needs to go at some point. He's ready to hammer him. But he never does. He's always waiting. But when the Aubrey train starts, he's OK voting Aubrey.
That's actually a big partner indicator right there.
His first post on Hapa was actually partner indicative too. Question about someone's read of Hapa + "I'll vote for him later" ...

I'm not usually convinced by Meta posts and reasonings mostly because I think Meta isn't Alignment indicative. But it might also be my inexperience on forum Mafia so I don't go digging super hard on past games.

Moogin are you gonna give your read on Rels especially since Rels came in with some very nice aggressive scumhunting here? Can you give a read on Hapa as well while your at it since you said you didn't understand why people thought Hapa was scummy?

Hapa's on VLA I guess still so I'll wait until he at least comes back before dropping a 3rd vote on his wagon.

Shortly after his Aubrey vote he's beginning to get pushed to death. Soon after that it's becoming more and morelikely he will be killed. So the rest of the posts are WIFOM.

[Rels]

My best guess for scum right now is you (Rels) and Fitz. I'm not cheerleading so much as trying to figure out if I'm wrong by looking at other possibilities, seeing whether your reads make sense and how genuine they are. Glad to hear you'll be more active though.

I'll never get lynched this game. Unless OOO is scum. If he gets me lynched, he's scum 100%. I can understand his suspicions of me right now but after a little while they will be gone UNLESS he's scum.

[Rels]

And I don't remember any mention of Fitz in Hawk's ISO. Which is a big partner tell in itself actually

[Rels]

First mention is a question ABOUT Fitz:

VOTE: doomefeathers

I don't see their posts being helpful to town in any way. I dont see their votes being helpful in any way. Why bother putting your vote on fitz when they're going to be vla until Tuesday?? I still dislike their post about strategy in the night, it seems like a scum trying to be town and give the town this brilliant solution to the night phases

You mean this? This reads to me as my two problems are
1. Voting someone who is VLA is not productive to town.
2. I don't like that you're talking mechanics it seems scummy and/or Fake town.

Doom is suspicious to me because he jumps from vote to vote and doesn't try to pull any information out of them. He wants other people to see his votes and hopes they'll go after them. He's not hunting the people that he's voting for actively.

This when asked about her reads reads as her changing her read and regurgitating my point I just made. But sure I can see what you're getting at let me redact.

So all you have to add to your opinion of Doom is the same thing I just said. Color me not impressed it felt like an attempt at appeasing someone who put pressure on you.

@Moogin what do you think about Doom retracting his vote on Fitz because of the VLA admitting he must have been tired in 296 . Does him voting Fitz still weigh on your scumread of him?

Also any other thoughts besides what's been presented thus far?

Pedit: I can only imagine Aubrey lol what a reunion.

Then only mentioning him while not reading him:
Post #659
Post #701

Yet suddenly way later Fitz' wagon was only a distraction to the real scums:

Yeah I think if Hapa flips town Rels and OoO feel like good counter points. OoO has done a much less spectacular job outside of that first section of the game. Which with a little bit of coordination and some use of TL meta could all be contrived info. Of the three Hapa looked the worse but was also the one being setup if he flips town.

I don't like that OoO comes back with such a misrep on Cass feels like it's rather odd and kinda LAMIST. Then distraction wagon of Fitz who hasn't been corner for concern since much earlier in the day.

I'm okay with Hapa lynch today, if he flips scum I'm looking at Rels if he flips town look at OoO.

If we don't lynch Hapa, Rels is my backup because I think those two will yield the greatest information gain.

KidDamn looks like lynch bait by Rels Hapa wagon.

VOTE: Rels

Pedit: Kop echos sentiments here but I'm still concerned he's pushing Rels more than Hapa... but if that's the case I can easily see Kop Hapa if it's not Rels Hapa or something along those lines.

Also Kops point that Rels could flip scum makes me feel much better about Kop since he doesn't need to push Rels here if he's scum with him and they could just force that Hapa lynch.

But later he implies he would be OK with a Fitz lynch if Hapa didn't have so many votes:

Charge your phone post later we have more than 24 hours so we can wait a bit but I will push through Hapa lynch if you don't come back with something ridiculous cause I don't see Fitz lynch happening.

[Rels]

Fitz / Hapa makes a lot of sense reading Hawk's filter. Let's reread theirs

[Rels]

496 @Rels...I've never seen someone not able to get replaced. it could take a few days but I do not see the mod doing anything to that slot.

Speaking of the mod...he hasn't logged in since Monday so he may have already got some offers to replace Fred.

And a votecount would be nice mod...

498 @Rels...when I read a game and see posts that have me nodding in agreement or feel as though they are like minded to what I am thinking I typically assign a town read to that person. I have seen more posts like that from KidAdm than I haven't. My two catch up walls should point to several Kid posts that I got a good feel from.

As the game progresses and we get flips...and more content is provided my reads are of course subject to change. As an example...I like Kop for the same reasons as I do Kid. But I think your post /case towards Kop has some good observations. So while I would not be interested in a Kop lynch atm over the players I find more suspect...I would say you have tarnished my read on him slightly. Also...the fact that two of my townreads are voting him (Kop) is annoying.

As for the players I do suspect...it is a tossup between the three of them.

I haven't like Aubrey for much of this game because of his lazy perch on me. When I am town, players who are coming at me are naturally going to warrant my attention (OMGUS bedamned). And while I can respect suspicions towards me if I think they are genuine, Aubrey however has been parked on me the entire game for extremely weak (and misplaced) reasons. I also think there is a good chance that at least one scum is a more active player who will try to push the game to meet their agenda vice sitting back and hoping things work out their way. Aubrey fits this line of thought. And the fact that he is generally being town read afaict makes no difference, even in his own opinion. That said...I do not think an Aubrey vote would not gain traction.

Creature is suspect because he is all over the place. He entered the game very reluctant to provide any legitimate responses and/or blew off questions. He has expressed a willingness to vote "almost" anyone. His flips in opinion on me (and his buddy Aubrey) have come seemingly out of nowhere and I fail to see any pro-town content coming from him.

hapa is suspect because 1) a town read for me (Rel) and a TBD for me but generally townread OoO both appear extremely confident in their suspicions of hapa. For more gut I would say than solid fact but familiarity does deserve consideration. I also really dislike the way hapa eased on to my wagon in support of the Aubrey (crap) suspicions towards me and then seemed to backtrack on the crux of Aubrey's case (my questions) and say it wasn't any particular questions more so than that multiple people had issue with them. Oh...and that I ironically warned OoO against wall posting in my wall post.

I think I weigh all of my suspects about the same...but I think hapa has the best chance of being the D1 lynch. My alternative to hapa would probably be Creature.

VOTE: hapahauli

Well that probably put an end to an Hapa / Fitz team

[Rels]

it was just after Hapa came back with big cases too, while he had several votes on him. Makes 0 sense to push + vote him at that point if they're together

[Rels]

If scum had daytalk

, we could make some hypothesis.

Creature must be town cause he didn't know scum had daytalk. I mean...how could he aside from the fact it's been mentioned several times and....

Mafia has daytalk

/sarcasm

Well it is a great point actually. Unless you can show me that scum!creature tries to dumbtell, dumbtells like that about stuff that scum would know without a shadow of a doubt very often comes from townies.

[Rels]

Unbelievable.

BV...you derail the hapa wagon (which I can live with) in favor of an Aubrey wagon (which I can live with)...spend several hours and countless posts making a case on Aubrey and pushing/urging/lobbying for others to join his wagon only to change your mind at the 11th hour to start one on a player I have been town reading. smh.....

I'm cool with Aubrey lasting because he at least will post...but not at the expense of someone I'm reading as town.

Really annoyed at Kop's lat post and he has garnered a fair amount of suspicion....

VOTE: Kop

Feeling pretty confident scum don't want to bus Hawk right now and would prefer to take the easy Kop lynch which I'm starting to think is town just based on how he is the counterwagon to Hawk.

OK I see what you meant. Fitz is also never scum with Kop too. At most 1 of these 2 can be.

[Rels]

Although Fitz is defending Hawk hard around deadline. Maybe a little too hard to be his partner

[Rels]

If you look at how Hawk has approached this game, there's so much stuff that's weird inside information. I'll also tell you this: I was holding onto this piece of information until I could ascertain Fitz's alignment for certain - Fitz hates bussing in general. When he was willing to vote you but not Hawk, that's when it confirmed to me that they were partnered.

But that could explain it

[Rels]

Hello, I am here for blood.

In any case, I don't want to lynch Kop. You said you wanted to lynch both of them, right? I'm very particular about wanting to lynch Hawk. Since you are so sure I'm town, you know I'm saying that because I'm trying to manipulate anything. Let's go with Hawk since you're fine lynching him. I'm really not fine lynching Kop today.

@ BV

Is your reason to not lynch Kop mainly that you're convinced Hawk/Fitz are mafia? Or is there some Kop town thing I'm missing.

Hawk/Fitz/Rels. Kop is not hugely town by any means but he does have some town moments like that vote on Rels.

He doesn't fit as scum with anyone else. It's nothing more than a feel-good lynch. The way Hawk jumped onto Aubrey with the reasoning he gave was really opportunistic.

VOTE: Hawk

If we're not voting Aubrey, I'm fine with this. I don't remember anything he's posted, which according to my self-meta, probably means he's mafia.

meeeeeh thats absolutely not the townie vote I remember. Could be partner for sure

[Rels]

But if he's scum he was also fishing for a Kop vote instead. So I guess that makes Kop town unless both of Fitz / Hapa are town

[Rels]

You seriously just let Aubrey's AtE get to you but not mine...

dat rage ^^

[Rels]

i want everyone on this wagon any goddamn way because i do not want a damned no lynch

but if/when hawk flips green we take bv down imo

he derailed wagons and WHAT HAPPENED? -- wouldnt you know it -- EXACTLY WHAT I SAID WOULD HAPPEN
a fucking compromise panicvoted deadline mislynch

everyone else saw the argument for staying on hapa but you wanna talk about browbeating? bv refused to engage with anyone who took a hard "no" stance on his bs
so people trickled away and scumleaned me like i was somehow talking crazy shit

this is such a townie post too. Cass can be conf town with BV

[Rels]

So. I have a problem. One of Fitz / Hapa is very very likely scum. But they're not together. And I have no idea who is the third then. I guess KidDamn is the less townie of the rest but it's also like THE easy scumread + there was one Hawk post where he attacked him that would be weird if they're partners.

[Rels]

mm. Going to sleep, will reread Hapa's ISO tomorrow. Good night

[Rels]

Do you got backwards with your reads when reading more..

kinda. What's your mind on Hapa now ? That vote on Hawk feels pretty forced

[Rels]

first, stop being so fucking aggressive. I'm talking to you so talk to me. Let's have a fucking discussion.
Second, so this is it:

VOTE: Hawk

If we're not voting Aubrey, I'm fine with this. I don't remember anything he's posted, which according to my self-meta, probably means he's mafia.

Like this is a super suicidal post at the point it came out if Hapa is mafia. There is still Aubrey wagon, there are people discrediting you BV for "changing your mind so many times", not all of those people can even be mafia. Why does he just do this instead of doing ANYTHING else (he has already had his vote on BOTH Aubrey and Kop)?

I don't find that convinced at all. First, if you reread that part, it was at that point where it was quite likely that Hawk would be lynched. And he even tried to get BV to maybe switch to Kop before voting. That's not a towntell.
Second, if you really think that about Hapa, then why don't you think that about me even more ? I kinda did what Hapa did much earlier.

[Rels]

yeah I wanna lynch Hapa. So many defense posts where he only came back to defend himself. Such a bad vote on Hawk when he was forced to. There is also the thing where he was logged in to the website when 1 day before the deadline but didn't post.

Well, he was prodded in this game at 9AM PST. At 9:45 or so, he posted in a different game but not here. If you look at his "search user posts." So, obviously he was online if he made any post at all.

Well he also was online until 30 minutes apparently:
"Last visited:Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:10 am"
For the comparaison it's 1:44 AM right now here

And he didn't believe in any lynch at all. Like, KidDamn was his main scumread, but he didn't really care about it. There is:
His case on him
Then he talks about him quite a lot until his revote on him:

KidDamn had an horrible defense against your case Hapa, then had 3 worthless posts since. Why are you not pushing him ?

I.
Don't.
Even.

VOTE: KidDamn

And after that it's over. He didn't fight for his lynch at all.

VOTE: Hapahauli

[Rels]

actually
UNVOTE: Hapahauli
It doesn't make sense. Hapa cannot be scum with anyone

[Rels]

with Creature or OOO I guess, with I think both of them are very likely town

[Rels]

or with doom

[Rels]

no doom is super townie.
So it's Fitz / KidDamn 99 times out of 100

[Rels]

VOTE: havingfitz

[Rels]

yeah that what makes the most sense. Apart from that one Hawk post that made me think Hawk / KidDamn would be weird:

Like I said, I don't really give a damn about this game, it's more about the three amigos having a circlejerk and apparently someone else backing off means I don't get to have a case so fuck it, do whatever.

OMG the amount of times that this response has been the first lynch in games is ridiculous.

Kid come on give a case or if that one's falling through push your second scumread don't just resign to defeat. You're at like what L-4?

Who's been pinging you lately? Who's posts just haven't been up to scruff??

But it makes waaaay more sense than any other scum team.

[Rels]

yeah that what makes the most sense. Apart from that one Hawk post that made me think Hawk / KidDamn would be weird:

Like I said, I don't really give a damn about this game, it's more about the three amigos having a circlejerk and apparently someone else backing off means I don't get to have a case so fuck it, do whatever.

OMG the amount of times that this response has been the first lynch in games is ridiculous.

Kid come on give a case or if that one's falling through push your second scumread don't just resign to defeat. You're at like what L-4?

Who's been pinging you lately? Who's posts just haven't been up to scruff??

But it makes waaaay more sense than any other scum team.

I'm still trying to work out just what your actual case for me as scum is, because the most you've done is a series of spammy single line posts that have decided on and then dismissed Hapa as scum, and decided I must be scum with Fitz because... Reasons? Which you've never given? And prior to this the most you've done is quote a bunch of my posts and vote me. If anyone deserves to be accused of not caring enough about their wagon it's you imo, your posts say almost nothing in terms of actual reasoning.

- POE. Almost everyone else is townier than you.
- Partner POE. Lots of people don't make sense together as a scum team. You on the contrary makes sense with Fitz. You have talk about him quite a lot, you're attacking OOO for his Fitz read actually, but I don't see you having an opinion on him.
- Your defense against Hapa's pressure. It was scummy. Very scummy. Like a scum who got caught. OMGUS, stretching reasons to attack his opponent.
- Your play since then. Mostly forgettable. Wasn't there for the deadline, didn't vote Hawk.
Why if Fitz town ?

[Rels]

Why IS* Fitz town ?

[Rels]

My main scumread is pushing Fitz for reasons you yourself admitted on D1 had almost nothing tangible behind them. Fitz has mostly been VLA and the whole thing feels like a very desperate and unpleasantly aggressive Ooo trying to push a mismatch on very little case and lots of "omg look at this lurking scum omg his walls have nothing because I say so". I didn't agree with the case D1 and the insistence combined with the attacks on people who disagree from Ooo and yourself feels off. That's why I think he's town, and

I would love to hear why you think I would go to bat for someone this hard if you genuinely think I'm in a scumteam with them, having already lost 1 out of 3.

So the only thing pointing at Fitz being town is that scummy people are pushing for him ?
I also don't understand the bolded. "Why would you try to get your teammate out of the lynch when you already lost 1 out of 3" ? Well, the answer is in the question.

Incidentally, repeatedly calling my calling out of Hapa's hypocrisy in his D1 case on me OMGUS will not make it true.

Stretching reasons to calling your attacker scum then getting the fuck out of the thread in frustration is actually exactly that.

[Rels]

first, stop being so fucking aggressive. I'm talking to you so talk to me.

Let's have a fucking discussion.

friendly reminder that im not the only person to be saying this shit
can anyone tell me why town wants to demoralize the players? anyone at all here

OOO plays like that though.

also noting that rels is softballing when he talks at people again

What does that mean ?

[Rels]

Are you really saying that you wouldn't lean town on someone being pushed by your main scumread?

Well yeah, but you're pushing him now BECAUSE of his Fitz read. So that would presupposed a Fitz townread, but your Fitz townread is also caused by the fact OOO is pushing him. It's circular. It doesn't make sense.
Like, you decided super early in the game that OOO was scum for something weak that doesn't make him scum. And you stuck by that scumread even though lots of things have happened since.
Is Hapa still scum in your mind ?

[Rels]

cass what did you mean when you said I'm softballing when talking to people ?

[Rels]

first, stop being so fucking aggressive. I'm talking to you so talk to me. Let's have a fucking discussion.

First, i am not "fuckign aggressive". Saying something doesn't make sense is not "fucking aggressive". Is this nowadays some 6 yr old kid's game where when you call people's bad posting bad they cry oceans?

Second, what there is to "discuss" then? Apparently questioning you about your motives isn't discussion in your opinion so i guess in your opinion this discussion word here means "if you think / would think i am town then who is mafia". Well if that's the case then our two scumreads are identical so i don't really know what there is to discuss? Like would we be trying to convince the other to think the person they already think is mafia is mafia?

When your reason to townread Hapa is "he voted Hawk when it was weird for him to do that as scum", I expect to say it to me instead of being a jackass and say "look in my ISO". It takes the same time for you to do either of that, and it saves me the time. I'm at work so I don't have lots of time to read ISO you know, I can only do it while I wait for code to be compiled.
DONT BE A JACKASS RAYN. YOURE BETTER THAN THAT.
p:

[Rels]

I don't like repeating things because i expect people to have read the thread when they post (because why would you if you haven't?). The only thing it does is it fill the thread up with useless questions and people are repeating same things over and over again. It is unnecessary.

If your objective is having a clear thread, your post saying "it's in my filter" was pretty bad, it would be better to have replaced the content of that post with "here is a link to my townread and it hasn't changed".
DONT BE A JACKASS

[Rels]

[quote="In post 1423
My case is very simple. havingfitz did something he earlier said is not pro-town. Town players do not do things that they think are not pro-town. Therefore the only conclusion i can come to is that he is mafia. What is so hard to understand in that? It is very simple logic. If havingfitz was town he would here be

working against something he himself believes is good play

(i.e. he intentionally plays bad). Town players do not intentinally play in a way they consider bad townplay.

Rels why did you never understand / see this? This is basically what your cases/reads usually look like. You think from the other person's mindset and see if it makes sense or not. This is something that should be clear as a day for you. You not only see this in the first place (in the post), and later on you don't see it when me (and Hapa kind of) point this out. That is super weird because you SHOULD be reading AT LEAST our posts.

dunno. But the logic contained here is bad. Fitz CAN be against you having walls of text while posting walls of text while catching up himself.

[Rels]

[quote="In post 1423
My case is very simple. havingfitz did something he earlier said is not pro-town. Town players do not do things that they think are not pro-town. Therefore the only conclusion i can come to is that he is mafia. What is so hard to understand in that? It is very simple logic. If havingfitz was town he would here be

working against something he himself believes is good play

(i.e. he intentionally plays bad). Town players do not intentinally play in a way they consider bad townplay.

Rels why did you never understand / see this? This is basically what your cases/reads usually look like. You think from the other person's mindset and see if it makes sense or not. This is something that should be clear as a day for you. You not only see this in the first place (in the post), and later on you don't see it when me (and Hapa kind of) point this out. That is super weird because you SHOULD be reading AT LEAST our posts.

dunno. But the logic contained here is bad. Fitz CAN be against you having walls of text while posting walls of text while catching up himself.

That was not the point. The point was he said he wont read walls if they are boring. You know what is the most boring thing you can do in a mafia game? Write 1000 words without being asked to and ending the post with "cya i will post reads later" (=absolutely 0 conclusions). That's the catch here. As i said, in mafia terms that's the literal definition of boring. So he wrote a post he should himself consider boring (aka "don't read") if he is telling the truth in all occasions here. Why would you write a post you consider not helpful towards finding mafia as town? Why would you write a post you would not read yourself if someone else wrote it?

Cause writing big posts while catching up is something some people do while reading other people walls (that were not done during catching up too so it's not even comparable) is boring.
But hey, I also think Fitz is scum, but this doesn't make him scum.

[Rels]

yo BV. The things you've said are true, they're part of why I voted Hapa earlier. BUT. Who is his partner ? I think Hapa can be confirmed town via PoE 'cause everybody either cant be his partner (KidDamn for example), or is townie in his own right (Creature for example).
Like, the only team that makes sense to me is Hapa / OOO. And I find that way less likely than Fitz / KidDamn.

[Rels]

yo Cass for the third time what's softballing and why are you saying I'm doing it ?

[Rels]

yo Cass for the third time what's softballing and why are you saying I'm doing it ?

im keeping this quiet because reasons

if you really, truly still dont know after ive seen what i wanted, ill tell you, sure

for now? i wait for you and kidamn to continue

OK. Don't know how you giving a definition wastes whatever you're looking for but OK. We'll see what you have in mind later then.

[Rels]

BlackVoid:

I don't find the argument as compelling as you do. I don't understand why does he call Hapa his #1 scum suspect at the time in the first place if he fears Hapa is getting lynched and is his partner. He doesn't really have to. Like why not just call Rels mafia there instead? Furthermore this sticks to my eye so hard:

Yeah I think if Hapa flips town Rels and OoO feel like good counter points. OoO has done a much less spectacular job outside of that first section of the game. Which with a little bit of coordination and some use of TL meta could all be contrived info. Of the three Hapa looked the worse but was also the one being setup if he flips town.

I don't like that OoO comes back with such a misrep on Cass feels like it's rather odd and kinda LAMIST. Then distraction wagon of Fitz who hasn't been corner for concern since much earlier in the day.

I'm okay with Hapa lynch today, if he flips scum I'm looking at Rels if he flips town look at OoO.

If we don't lynch Hapa, Rels is my backup because I think those two will yield the greatest information gain.

KidDamn looks like lynch bait by Rels Hapa wagon.

VOTE: Rels

Pedit: Kop echos sentiments here but I'm still concerned he's pushing Rels more than Hapa... but if that's the case I can easily see Kop Hapa if it's not Rels Hapa or something along those lines.

Also Kops point that Rels could flip scum makes me feel much better about Kop since he doesn't need to push Rels here if he's scum with him and they could just force that Hapa lynch.

Because what i see there is a setup to lynch 2 townies assuming Hapa is town (as he is basically telling "if people wanna lynch Hapa i will follow").
Do you really think he is actively trying to lynch Rels based on a case like "he's my #2 scumread and will yield most information if we lynch him"? Because i don't.

The problem is not that. It's not that he was fighting to lynch me over Hapa. It is that he didn't vote Hapa, while at the same time showing that he was willing to vote the other wagons that got started => me, then Aubrey. While he kept repeating "I'll vote Hapa later if he's the lynch", he never commited to it.

[Rels]

come on you were never gonna get lynched and you know it aswell as i do.

??? So ? It has nothing to do with the argument.

BlackVoid:

I don't find the argument as compelling as you do. I don't understand why does he call Hapa his #1 scum suspect at the time in the first place if he fears Hapa is getting lynched and is his partner. He doesn't really have to. Like why not just call Rels mafia there instead? Furthermore this sticks to my eye so hard:

Yeah I think if Hapa flips town Rels and OoO feel like good counter points. OoO has done a much less spectacular job outside of that first section of the game. Which with a little bit of coordination and some use of TL meta could all be contrived info. Of the three Hapa looked the worse but was also the one being setup if he flips town.

I don't like that OoO comes back with such a misrep on Cass feels like it's rather odd and kinda LAMIST. Then distraction wagon of Fitz who hasn't been corner for concern since much earlier in the day.

I'm okay with Hapa lynch today, if he flips scum I'm looking at Rels if he flips town look at OoO.

If we don't lynch Hapa, Rels is my backup because I think those two will yield the greatest information gain.

KidDamn looks like lynch bait by Rels Hapa wagon.

VOTE: Rels

Pedit: Kop echos sentiments here but I'm still concerned he's pushing Rels more than Hapa... but if that's the case I can easily see Kop Hapa if it's not Rels Hapa or something along those lines.

Also Kops point that Rels could flip scum makes me feel much better about Kop since he doesn't need to push Rels here if he's scum with him and they could just force that Hapa lynch.

Because what i see there is a setup to lynch 2 townies assuming Hapa is town (as he is basically telling "if people wanna lynch Hapa i will follow").
Do you really think he is actively trying to lynch Rels based on a case like "he's my #2 scumread and will yield most information if we lynch him"? Because i don't.

read a little further ahead, just after the vc where the rels wagon has 4 people on board -- hes saying he doesnt want a rels lynch today, he wants a hapa lynch d1, hes just pressing rels for (???? something about a lynch)

ill dig up the quote

p-edit: i did the same thing rels so unless you scumread me for that thats a poor argument. consistency or trash it
ooo's holds better

Well, several things. First, it's a scum indicator - you have other things that makes you town, Hapa has less things of that. Second, I think Fitz is scum over Hapa anyway.

[Rels]

OOO are you working on the idea that I'm scum; Hawk is my partner; and he voted me over Hapa ?

[Rels]

OOO are you working on the idea that I'm scum; Hawk is my partner; and he voted me over Hapa ?

Yeah why not? You weren't gonna get lynched anyways and when your wagon gained some traction he was quite happy to put his vote elsewhere. I don't see the problem in how his voting cannot make you mafia.

First, when he voted me I was looking to be the lynch:

Yeah I think if Hapa flips town Rels and OoO feel like good counter points. OoO has done a much less spectacular job outside of that first section of the game. Which with a little bit of coordination and some use of TL meta could all be contrived info. Of the three Hapa looked the worse but was also the one being setup if he flips town.

I don't like that OoO comes back with such a misrep on Cass feels like it's rather odd and kinda LAMIST. Then distraction wagon of Fitz who hasn't been corner for concern since much earlier in the day.

I'm okay with Hapa lynch today, if he flips scum I'm looking at Rels if he flips town look at OoO.

If we don't lynch Hapa, Rels is my backup because I think those two will yield the greatest information gain.

KidDamn looks like lynch bait by Rels Hapa wagon.

VOTE: Rels

Pedit: Kop echos sentiments here but I'm still concerned he's pushing Rels more than Hapa... but if that's the case I can easily see Kop Hapa if it's not Rels Hapa or something along those lines.

Also Kops point that Rels could flip scum makes me feel much better about Kop since he doesn't need to push Rels here if he's scum with him and they could just force that Hapa lynch.

Votecount 1.13

Mod Error: In the previous VC, KidAmn is voting hapahauli when he voted Rels in 895

[L-3] Rels - Kop, Hawk, cassielle, KidAmn
[L-5] KidAmn - Rels, hapahauli
[L-5] Hapahauli - Creature, BlackVoid
[L-5] Kop - Aubrey, doomfeathers
[L-6] havingfitz - outoforder

Not voting: havingfitz

With 12 alive, a majority vote is decided with 7 players.

Deadline: (expired on 2017-03-01 23:00:00)

Only Cass' vote was after Hawk's in this votecount, there was an error in the immediately preceding one. So Hawk put me in the lead actually.

Second, I can see how you think that doesn't make town, or how that doesn't make me scum. Because that's the obvious answer, so WIFOM. But that doesn't prove at all the opposite. That doesn't make sense. He waffled about Hapa while voting me when I was in the lead, then Aubrey when Aubrey was in the lead. How you can conclude that it makes Hapa town and me scum is very, very weird.

Third, he didn't hop off my wagon when I started getting traction, he voted Aubrey when Aubrey started getting traction. So was Aubrey scum too in your mind or what ?

VOTE: Aubrey

I don't think town Aubrey gets frustrated there the way he does. He hasn't pushed the game forward at all just consigned that Rels and Hapa were the lynches of the day despite not 100% liking a Hapa lynch. Scum Aubrey is very cunning and I haven't played with him in a scum game where he's been scumread early so I don't know how genuine he can fake AtE, but I do know that in my last game WITH Aubrey as scum he took a backseat to me leading town and successfully had me and the rest of town town reading him for days before finally we hit f3 and there was no possible way for him to be town in my eyes and I had to scramble to figure out how to convince our backup role cop that he was scum and I wasnt.

Votecount 1.16

[L-2] Aubrey - BlackVoid, havingfitz, Creature, hapahauli, Hawk
[L-4] Hapahauli - Aubrey, cassielle, KidAmn
[L-6] KidAmn - Rels
[L-6] Rels - Kop
[L-6] Kop - doomfeathers
[L-6] havingfitz - outoforder

With 12 alive, a majority vote is decided with 7 players.

Deadline: (expired on 2017-03-01 23:00:00)

Prod: Kop has (expired on 2017-03-02 10:20:00) to post until getting force-replaced.

[Rels]

rereading actually KidDamn's vote was after Hawk's too, just not vote-formatted for some reason.

[Rels]

OOO why are not fact checking everyting instead of relying on Cass ? You who didn't want to answer me because "the answer is in my ISO" ?

[Rels]

I am not saying it makes you scum lol.
I am saying it doesn't exculde you from his possible partners like BV suggested.
I am never going to make a case on someone based on "this mafia guy said X or Y about this A dude therefore he is scum". That's just retarded imo.

but you are saying it makes Hapa's town. Which is ridiculous.