Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

[outoforder]

first, stop being so fucking aggressive. I'm talking to you so talk to me. Let's have a fucking discussion.

First, i am not "fuckign aggressive". Saying something doesn't make sense is not "fucking aggressive". Is this nowadays some 6 yr old kid's game where when you call people's bad posting bad they cry oceans?

Second, what there is to "discuss" then? Apparently questioning you about your motives isn't discussion in your opinion so i guess in your opinion this discussion word here means "if you think / would think i am town then who is mafia". Well if that's the case then our two scumreads are identical so i don't really know what there is to discuss? Like would we be trying to convince the other to think the person they already think is mafia is mafia?

[Rels]

first, stop being so fucking aggressive. I'm talking to you so talk to me. Let's have a fucking discussion.

First, i am not "fuckign aggressive". Saying something doesn't make sense is not "fucking aggressive". Is this nowadays some 6 yr old kid's game where when you call people's bad posting bad they cry oceans?

Second, what there is to "discuss" then? Apparently questioning you about your motives isn't discussion in your opinion so i guess in your opinion this discussion word here means "if you think / would think i am town then who is mafia". Well if that's the case then our two scumreads are identical so i don't really know what there is to discuss? Like would we be trying to convince the other to think the person they already think is mafia is mafia?

When your reason to townread Hapa is "he voted Hawk when it was weird for him to do that as scum", I expect to say it to me instead of being a jackass and say "look in my ISO". It takes the same time for you to do either of that, and it saves me the time. I'm at work so I don't have lots of time to read ISO you know, I can only do it while I wait for code to be compiled.
DONT BE A JACKASS RAYN. YOURE BETTER THAN THAT.
p:

[outoforder]

I don't like repeating things because i expect people to have read the thread when they post (because why would you if you haven't?). The only thing it does is it fill the thread up with useless questions and people are repeating same things over and over again. It is unnecessary.

[Rels]

I don't like repeating things because i expect people to have read the thread when they post (because why would you if you haven't?). The only thing it does is it fill the thread up with useless questions and people are repeating same things over and over again. It is unnecessary.

If your objective is having a clear thread, your post saying "it's in my filter" was pretty bad, it would be better to have replaced the content of that post with "here is a link to my townread and it hasn't changed".
DONT BE A JACKASS

[KidAmn]

i have thoughts on the rels/kidamn interaction going on but im saving them while i wait for the big damn mistake that's a-coming down the pipe
someone in this thread isnt paying attention and i won't say whooooo

Nah, that shit didn't fly D1, it doesnt fly now either.

[outoforder]

[quote="In post 1423
My case is very simple. havingfitz did something he earlier said is not pro-town. Town players do not do things that they think are not pro-town. Therefore the only conclusion i can come to is that he is mafia. What is so hard to understand in that? It is very simple logic. If havingfitz was town he would here be

working against something he himself believes is good play

(i.e. he intentionally plays bad). Town players do not intentinally play in a way they consider bad townplay.

Rels why did you never understand / see this? This is basically what your cases/reads usually look like. You think from the other person's mindset and see if it makes sense or not. This is something that should be clear as a day for you. You not only see this in the first place (in the post), and later on you don't see it when me (and Hapa kind of) point this out. That is super weird because you SHOULD be reading AT LEAST our posts.

[outoforder]

I don't like repeating things because i expect people to have read the thread when they post (because why would you if you haven't?). The only thing it does is it fill the thread up with useless questions and people are repeating same things over and over again. It is unnecessary.

If your objective is having a clear thread, your post saying "it's in my filter" was pretty bad, it would be better to have replaced the content of that post with "here is a link to my townread and it hasn't changed".
DONT BE A JACKASS

Sorry but i am not doing your work for you. I have never done that and i won't start now.

[Rels]

[quote="In post 1423
My case is very simple. havingfitz did something he earlier said is not pro-town. Town players do not do things that they think are not pro-town. Therefore the only conclusion i can come to is that he is mafia. What is so hard to understand in that? It is very simple logic. If havingfitz was town he would here be

working against something he himself believes is good play

(i.e. he intentionally plays bad). Town players do not intentinally play in a way they consider bad townplay.

Rels why did you never understand / see this? This is basically what your cases/reads usually look like. You think from the other person's mindset and see if it makes sense or not. This is something that should be clear as a day for you. You not only see this in the first place (in the post), and later on you don't see it when me (and Hapa kind of) point this out. That is super weird because you SHOULD be reading AT LEAST our posts.

dunno. But the logic contained here is bad. Fitz CAN be against you having walls of text while posting walls of text while catching up himself.

[outoforder]

[quote="In post 1423
My case is very simple. havingfitz did something he earlier said is not pro-town. Town players do not do things that they think are not pro-town. Therefore the only conclusion i can come to is that he is mafia. What is so hard to understand in that? It is very simple logic. If havingfitz was town he would here be

working against something he himself believes is good play

(i.e. he intentionally plays bad). Town players do not intentinally play in a way they consider bad townplay.

Rels why did you never understand / see this? This is basically what your cases/reads usually look like. You think from the other person's mindset and see if it makes sense or not. This is something that should be clear as a day for you. You not only see this in the first place (in the post), and later on you don't see it when me (and Hapa kind of) point this out. That is super weird because you SHOULD be reading AT LEAST our posts.

dunno. But the logic contained here is bad. Fitz CAN be against you having walls of text while posting walls of text while catching up himself.

That was not the point. The point was he said he wont read walls if they are boring. You know what is the most boring thing you can do in a mafia game? Write 1000 words without being asked to and ending the post with "cya i will post reads later" (=absolutely 0 conclusions). That's the catch here. As i said, in mafia terms that's the literal definition of boring. So he wrote a post he should himself consider boring (aka "don't read") if he is telling the truth in all occasions here. Why would you write a post you consider not helpful towards finding mafia as town? Why would you write a post you would not read yourself if someone else wrote it?

[outoforder]

I'll give you an example of a similar post, here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/4 ... ge=62#1224

Starts from "atm i think A", writes 1000 wordsand ends up in "i think A". Always mafia post.

[Rels]

[quote="In post 1423
My case is very simple. havingfitz did something he earlier said is not pro-town. Town players do not do things that they think are not pro-town. Therefore the only conclusion i can come to is that he is mafia. What is so hard to understand in that? It is very simple logic. If havingfitz was town he would here be

working against something he himself believes is good play

(i.e. he intentionally plays bad). Town players do not intentinally play in a way they consider bad townplay.

Rels why did you never understand / see this? This is basically what your cases/reads usually look like. You think from the other person's mindset and see if it makes sense or not. This is something that should be clear as a day for you. You not only see this in the first place (in the post), and later on you don't see it when me (and Hapa kind of) point this out. That is super weird because you SHOULD be reading AT LEAST our posts.

dunno. But the logic contained here is bad. Fitz CAN be against you having walls of text while posting walls of text while catching up himself.

That was not the point. The point was he said he wont read walls if they are boring. You know what is the most boring thing you can do in a mafia game? Write 1000 words without being asked to and ending the post with "cya i will post reads later" (=absolutely 0 conclusions). That's the catch here. As i said, in mafia terms that's the literal definition of boring. So he wrote a post he should himself consider boring (aka "don't read") if he is telling the truth in all occasions here. Why would you write a post you consider not helpful towards finding mafia as town? Why would you write a post you would not read yourself if someone else wrote it?

Cause writing big posts while catching up is something some people do while reading other people walls (that were not done during catching up too so it's not even comparable) is boring.
But hey, I also think Fitz is scum, but this doesn't make him scum.

[outoforder]

In almost all cases yes, it does make the person mafia.

[outoforder]

Anyways i am gonna take a shower and then i am gonna gather up all the questions fitz has asked me this game and quote my answers from my filter and then i am gonna call him a liar scum again.

[cassielle]

i have thoughts on the rels/kidamn interaction going on but im saving them while i wait for the big damn mistake that's a-coming down the pipe
someone in this thread isnt paying attention and i won't say whooooo

Nah, that shit didn't fly D1, it doesnt fly now either.

if you mean me not talking about the interaction:
i am waiting on something to happen

if you mean me not talking about the person not paying attention:
theyre the one whos going to flub it and im waiting to see if its a townflub or a scumflub

talking about who im watching specifically defeats the purpose, they know they need to modify behavior
talking about the interaction itself makes both sides self-aware and feel exposed, which increases the chances they make a dumb move, which is the whole point
and talking about it in this weird circular way also increases those chances for the same reasons

that dumb move will tell me much more about them (especially the one im looking at the most) than most of the rest of their play will today

[outoforder]

i have thoughts on the rels/kidamn interaction going on but im saving them while i wait for the big damn mistake that's a-coming down the pipe
someone in this thread isnt paying attention and i won't say whooooo

Nah, that shit didn't fly D1, it doesnt fly now either.

if you mean me not talking about the interaction:
i am waiting on something to happen

if you mean me not talking about the person not paying attention:
theyre the one whos going to flub it and im waiting to see if its a townflub or a scumflub

talking about who im watching specifically defeats the purpose, they know they need to modify behavior
talking about the interaction itself makes both sides self-aware and feel exposed, which increases the chances they make a dumb move, which is the whole point
and talking about it in this weird circular way also increases those chances for the same reasons

that dumb move will tell me much more about them (especially the one im looking at the most) than most of the rest of their play will today

Beware though. People are gonna make a big fuzz about it for no reason and then start calling you scum when you explain because "you created a big mess". Trust me i know what i am talking about! I am interested in this though since it looks like you think you're onto something good. Hope it's something good.

[BlackVoid]

Here's where I'm at: Turns out Hap logged on last night at Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:15 pm (PST). For reference, it's now 6:15 am PST. This in addition to him posting in another game the morning after Tenshii opened D2. If it's true that Hap has a great towngame and a not-so-great scumgame, it points to him avoiding the thread. He's also due for a prod.

@mod - can you prod hapahauli?

I think if he were legitimately busy, he wouldn't be logging onto the site so often just to not post. If he had even a few minutes to post in other games, he'll have a few minutes to give spur of the moment thoughts for this game but he doesn't. @Creature, does this remind you of Smart's posting from Scumteam Unpick?

I think it's more likely he's scum than Rels. Look at how Hawk reacted when I replaced in, wrote a huge reads list and posted a case on Hap. He said it was a good one, unvoted KidAmn, and voted RELS. Why would he vote his partner when a case was made against a townie?

I'm not sure who fits as a Hap partner because everyone scumread him. I've looked over more of Fitz's games going back and there are a few where he did bus so don't rule him out completely either.

VOTE: Hapahauli

[Rels]

yo BV. The things you've said are true, they're part of why I voted Hapa earlier. BUT. Who is his partner ? I think Hapa can be confirmed town via PoE 'cause everybody either cant be his partner (KidDamn for example), or is townie in his own right (Creature for example).
Like, the only team that makes sense to me is Hapa / OOO. And I find that way less likely than Fitz / KidDamn.

[BlackVoid]

I have no idea who his partner is. But right now, I just want to see who fits as scum with Hawk and who is scummy in their own right. "Hap can't be scum because no one can be his partner" creates a falsely closed lynchpool. In Mini 1843, I did that and winded up getting screwed when I should have just lynched my top scumread. I haven't finished re-reading through but I'm not willing to just let Hap skate by here.

[cassielle]

I have no idea who his partner is. But right now, I just want to see who fits as scum with Hawk and who is scummy in their own right.

"Hap can't be scum because no one can be his partner" creates a falsely closed lynchpool.

In Mini 1843, I did that and winded up getting screwed when I should have just lynched my top scumread. I haven't finished re-reading through but I'm not willing to just let Hap skate by here.

yes hapa is probscum. and hes got some openings for players to be on team with him also
theyd just need to be one of the other TL guys

ooo would be good scum, top tier tho -- if yall got meta that says hes bad scum player we can safely write him off, and sorry, no self-meta acceptable
rels im withholding comment on atm except to wave vaguely at softballed questions and easy-mode townreads again

theres also kidamn -- withholding comment
momo/doom is a possible, i need to see more from momo first, but doom's townie posting was all either real bad reasoning or not looking at gamesolve in the first place. again tho momo might pull it out of the fire

and fitz, eh, ok, maybe. gut/tone townpings, but yeah the contents nonexistent or waffly, i can see it.
i tend to think of withholding reads as NAI tho because sometimes you just have zero confidence in your reads and some players havent realized the best way to get more confident is to start stomping on people with your crap reads and see what happens (i get called scum for doing this /all the time/ so that sort of withholding judgement when uncertain is a p common affliction)

kop doesnt feel like scum but tbh i dont want that slot anywhere near MyLo/LyLo unless i can coerce it to produce content

bv is locktown
creature is eeeeeeh. i wish hed continue to contribute more but hes falling off again and im thinking he needs to be given a second look or get a wild hair up his ass to start playing the game again
its hard to say hes playing his scum meta though. if he /is/ scum hes massively improved
still, i want the crossed-off-lists and digs-through-most-of-the-game-to-date-post-by-post creature, not this apathetic "so what now" creature

[Rels]

yo Cass for the third time what's softballing and why are you saying I'm doing it ?

[outoforder]

Spoiler: fitz' questions and answers

outoforder....is Ooo an acceptable reference to you?

No it is not an alt. I know hapahauli and Rels from another forum.

outoforder....is Ooo an acceptable reference to you?

Yes.

-----------

Is your RVS meta on hanapulali from this site or another one?

See the above answer. Now if you went to look at my post count on mafiascum and then look at the post where i gave my answer to the last question you would very clearly see that i have played zero games here. Then you put 1+1 together and your question is answered (before you even asked it...).
-----------

Are the 3 of you good at reading each other? Is there reason to assume any different dynamics between TLM and MS will affect your ability to read each other?

Hapahauli is basically playing below his level. He is not being as smart as he is supposed to be and his scumgame is wel.... quite bad.

[...]Now i didn't expect Rels to 100% pick this up, but IF he does pick this up, he is most likely going to be town in this game since

his scumgame (while being quite good)

, lacks "going into depths of posts", and it's impossible to emulate a townie trait like that as mafia since you are playing from a completely different mindset. [...]

@Outoforder, while you catch up, weigh in on Rels for me as well.

I cant tell if Rels is mafia on D1. My townread on him is genuine but i understand he could be scum. He thinks so alike i do i always end up on a townread on him on d1 (unless he does something completely retarded). I mean, my play is based on logic and if the logic ppl are using is making sense in any way or not. Rels probably knows my logic, so if he is scum he will also know what to tell me. I tried being super sneaky on him at the start of the game since he HAS made blunders on that before. But yeah, i prolly end up thinking he is town in 80% of the time regardless of his alignment because i am a sucker for logic.

This should be enough to tell fitz that yes, i think i am good at reading hapa and no, i don't think i am good at reading Rels at least on D1. Furthermore Rels said me and him have fooled each other early on in the game. So i consider this question answered from my part.
-----------

On that note...what do you mean when you say I am going to be a pain in the ass because I am not going to get anything you are saying?

[...]
So what i do conclude, regarding MooginSoosy (and to havingfitz too), is that if they are town they are probably going to be a pain in the ass to convince of anything i think is true because they will not be getting what i am saying. Or they are mafia, who just like to make people possibly annoyed so they can call them out for that later on. [...]

I can't possibly see how i can say this more clearly. Ironically this is probably the post the question is based on....
-----------

142 - @OoO...what does X being personality driven have to do with X being alignment indicative?

So why did Moosin and I get your discredit?

Yeah, one would think why. Two questions based on the same thing (post) that already answered both of the questions...
-----------

143 - OoO...what did you establish from Aubrey's answer to your proofreading question?

I am getting a bit tired of this... If i (or anyone) don't follow up on a question it probably means they think the person gave a townie (or at least not scummy) response. This is like asking "why do you question your scumreads?".... Does anyone here think people should post literally every little thing that goes in their mind? If the question had been "i can see your question to Aubrey here. I don't understand why you made the question since it looks pointless to me. What did you expect him - as mafia - to answer? Because it also seems like the answer didn't provoke a scummy reaction from him." that would have been a good question, because it can actually achieve something.
-----------

169 - @OoO...At this point in the game why are you town reading Creature? Because at this point in the game he has made ~20 shit posts.

My read on Creature is based on that he doesn't really care about how people see him, and what people think of him. It looks like he's got the mindset of "fuck you i don't have to tell you anything i don't want to, here is just what i think. I will give you my reasoning when i please". I know a player who works the same way and still, when you read the posts you get a gist of where they are coming from. If you don't, they are probably mafia - which isn't the case here imo.

-----------

OoO...it looks like you have meta'd a few players to develop your reads on them. Have you on me?

No, i don't need to. Scummy stuff is scummy. I would have posted i have if i had, obviously.
-----------

340 - @OoO...why are you scum reading me? And if I am the scummiest player in the game to you...why aren't you voting me?

Alrighty.
[...]
I also have a town lean on Aubrey, for his psot #117 and the comment + vote on Havingfitz, since i share the same thought about his play. [...]

Basically everyone else is a complete non-entity. Except for Havingfitz who i have a slight scumlean on for reasons Aubrey outlined, and Hapahauli who i honestly think is mafia.
[...]

[...]
I don't care. I vote when i actually am fairly certain someone is scum. If people wanna paint it as hesitant scum then they do. ^^
[...]

At this point you are a scumlean. When i unvoted hapahauli you don't magically become super obvious mafia just because i think noone else is scummier than you. If you had (again) read my posts you would know when i do vote and when i don't.
-----------

380 - OoO...you tell Hawk that when you think someone is mafia you tell it and lay out your reasoning...where is your reasoning for having me as the scummiest player in the game?

See above *sigh*
-----------

Also...OoO....post 869 is terrible. What part of your "filter read" comments on me are actually alignment indicative?

Btw i still think havingfitz is scum. I went to reread his filter and what he basically did in his wall of text was this:\
- I don't like wall of texts -> writes a wall of text -> the conclusion he ends up in is "now let me continue and post my reads later".......

VOTE: havingfitz

It says that in the post you asked about.... Disagreeing with my read or calling it bullshit is one thing, but it's a whole other thing to ASK the dude basically "this thing you find scummy for me, do you think it's alignment indicative". I dont even... :p
-----------

can you remind me (or actually state for the first time) why it is you scum read me?

see above.
-----------

Deflecting a case on him based on nothing that was on the case != "here is why you are wrong". It is "i am discrediting you gor other atuff because i cant prove you are wrong".

What case? Remind me of your "case."

I quoted this whole post so everyone can see what i have said BEFORE he posted this.
Again, see above.
-----------

And there, all his questions have been answered, yet after the last post he keeps telling i am scum because i haven't answered his questions.

Now what does this mean regarding havingfitz? You can all think about that, i spent almost an hour doing this only because someone asked me really dumb questions, got their answers in a way or another, yet people can't see anything wrong with it. I'll follow up probably tomorrow or smth. I found some other juicy things there too.

I did power through it and found some good stuff in it but please OoO...can you be more concise? The longer a post is the less likely you are to get the information through to people. If something concise needs to be elaborated on you can un-concise specific points later.

Do you want to know what he talks about in this post? A post of mine that was un-concise because people WANTED ME TO ELABORATE MORE on a very concise thing.
Dear god i don't even know what to say anymore. ^_^

[outoforder]

Oh i skipped a question:

142 - @OoO...what does X being personality driven have to do with X being alignment indicative?

Nothing, i never said such thing. He is probably referring to this:

Because the point of RVS in the end is to start the game and do something to get out reads. So when people, after that X point (see more about this after the next quote) continue the game "without the X being there" it becomes, at least in my opinion, alignment - or at least personality - indicative.

Alignment idigative (for people i know) - Personality indicative (for people i don't know).
I never claimed one has to do something with the other.

[cassielle]

yo Cass for the third time what's softballing and why are you saying I'm doing it ?

im keeping this quiet because reasons

if you really, truly still dont know after ive seen what i wanted, ill tell you, sure

for now? i wait for you and kidamn to continue

[outoforder]

I think it's more likely he's scum than Rels. Look at how Hawk reacted when I replaced in, wrote a huge reads list and posted a case on Hap. He said it was a good one, unvoted KidAmn, and voted RELS. Why would he vote his partner when a case was made against a townie?

Do you remember what was the votecount at that time?

[cassielle]

Votecount 1.11

[L-2] KidAmn - Rels, hapahauli, Hawk, doomfeathers, cassielle
[L-3] Hapahauli - outoforder, KidAmn, Creature
[L-6] doomfeathers - MooginSoosy
[L-6] Kop - Aubrey
[L-6] Rels - Kop

Not voting: havingfitz

With 12 alive, a majority vote is decided with 7 players.

Deadline: (expired on 2017-03-01 23:00:00)

Deadline Extension Warning: I may or may not give up to 2 days of deadline extension for late replacers and people on V/LA to catch up.

Prod: Outoforder has (expired on 2017-02-26 12:30:00) to post until being force-replaced.

v/LA till Monday morning. I'll post if I get the chance.

found it for you ooo