Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

[Rels]

I was confident before because all of Aubrey's reactions to me hadn't sunk in at that point.

I didn't say anything about your reservations about an Aubrey lynch. I'm saying the reasoning you used "I can't see Aubrey get frustrated like this as town" is made-up reasoning. If anything town are more likely than scum to be frustrated. It looked like you cobbled together whatever you could at that moment to hop onto a lynch wagon.

OMG town tunnel comf!bias everybody.

I say I don't see Aubrey getting frustrated "like this" as town! Aubrey was frustrated by the gamestate and everyone waffling about. I'm referring to this post 1175 . This is not town this is scum.

He's all woe is me I'm getting lynched cause people are fuckwads.

You're fucking head up your ass town just like Aubrey said. You decide to waffle on Hapa and try so hard to find a lynch off wagon. Reserved that Hapa lynch isn't happening you're pressuring Aubrey to the point of insanity and then when his lynch hits L-2 and no one else is voting (specifically OoO isn't wowed by it) You go. no wait! What about Hawk. Hawk is sus because he is saying the same thing I've been fucking saying just from his PoV.

There is literally 1 person and 1 vote on you. That is way over reacted

[Rels]

Hawk can I have your answer on these that you didn't answer:

Okay I look forward to you putting forth some content tonight then.

Pedit: I want to take your word for it but I don't see why it would be hard as scum because as far as I know Creature apparently comes into his own more d2?

We will see I guess. But I'm gonna dig the ISO's a bit.

You're talking about Creature's ISO there ? Did you actually read it ?

VOTE: KidDamn I agree that we can always come back to Hapa if we have too because his lynch even if he is town is informative. But like creature and Cass have kinda pointed out day is winding down we need to pressure and get people talking. Apathy will kill this town. I've played games where apathy kills town.

UNVOTE:

I need to reread and reevaluate. I like BV's effort. Solid town vibes from that read list also Hella a whole lot better than Moogin was. Hapa scumread feels more genuinely thought out then the Meta stuff OoO and Rels were feeding early game.

What happened to your KidDamn scumread between these ?

VOTE: KidDamn I agree that we can always come back to Hapa if we have too because his lynch even if he is town is informative. But like creature and Cass have kinda pointed out day is winding down we need to pressure and get people talking. Apathy will kill this town. I've played games where apathy kills town.

You can come back to Hapa, but you're voting Hapa's biggest scumread to pressure them ?

@Hawk - how did you go from "Hap looks the worst of the three TL players and Rels is my backup," and saying that you are "okay with a Hap lynch, look at Rels if he's scum" to voting Rels? Then you say you are concerned that Kop is pushing Rels and that you could see Hap/Kop or Hap/Rels. Based on all of this, you should be voting Hap so I have no idea how you winded up with a Rels vote.

You distinctly left off a grand portion of my sentiments there including that I feel like of the three Hapa looks the worst but is also the one being pressured most and could be BEING SETUP either for a bus or a ML. Look at how OoO and Rels initially pressure and vote Hapa then Rels backs off from one reentering post by Hapa. At first during the day I dismissed almost that entire section of the read to being meta driven TL stuff but now that you pointed out more concisely that I can see a case for Hapa that isn't meta driven I'm worried that the Meta read from Rels and subsequent back off is either setting up Hapa as a Bus or as a ML.

Like Hapa's wagon has 0 resistance, (asside from me town reading his AtE earlier.) No one is actively saying we shouldnt vote Hapa except for Hapa. That is like giant red warning signals flashing for me and I think since Hapa isn't going anywhere and we can just lynch him tomorrow even if it doesn't go anywhere applying pressure and possibly lynching associatives can put town one step closer to finding all 3 scum.

I mean say we lynch Hapa today no question to Rels motivations for saying no wait stop or Kops motivations to voting Rels instead of Hapa or anything Cass is doing or anything else. If Hapa flips town now where are we. Pushing Rels cause he called Hapa town? Pushing Cass, Creature, KidDamn and Everyone else who said Hapa is scum? oh wait that's everyone (sans kinda Rels and maybe OoO?) Yeah I'm fairly certain Hapa will flip scum but I want more traction laid down by Rels and everyone else who has any motivations for not lynching Hapa. They have to be accountable whether he flips scum (likely) or flips town (unlikely).

Like this isn't us pushing a mislynch. We probably lynch Hapa today.

But we have time. We still have what 2 days to talk? And OoO still hasn't really weighed back in besides a redux back onto Fitz which doesn't sit well with me either.

Pedit: I'll respond to Fitz in a minute. I'm just worried that Rels who seems to be the most active TL member who seems to TR Hapa and I want to know why.

This is so weirdly phrased. First, you're pushing things "for info", but you admit in your POV we're almost always lynching Hapa today; it's weird ?
Second, it looks like a slip. "I'm voting Rels but I'm not pushing for a mislynch because I will get back on Hapa". LOL it really looks like you're saying you KNOW I'm a mislynch and Hapa is not.

Lastly, these two posts seem super logical at first but do 0 thing to push the game forward:

Meta is NAI for me so when people use Meta to create cases I'm usually very suspect of them. The case in particular from OoO and Rels against Hapa was even harder to decipher because I have no experience with any of them and I didn't want to go digging around another site to even get a gleam of another players meta. So I took that with a huge grain of salt. Early on Rels and OoO seemed townish to me. OoO moreso than Rels I guess but it doesn't really matter. So when Hapa responds and is subsequently no longer scumread by OoO or Rels I find it odd and make a mental note but don't pay attention to it. Rest of the day Hapa continues to be a large target by the entire player base so I cant really ignore him but I have a hard time separating the meta case and think you know there has to be a reason Hapa looks town to OoO and Rels right? can't just be meta. Some of what he's done is objectively scummy. His AtE feels like it could come from town to me especially since he's been under a laser microscope all game long.

So when you post a nicer more concise scumread on Hapa that is objectively found I think I can get behind the idea but that dismissal still sticks in my mind and I'm trying to sort it.

So here's where I'm at. I think Hapa is scum. Cass and others have voiced that Hapa can be lynched today. Sweet don't have to worry there I can flip onto Hapa when I need to to help push the lynch through.

So now my question is why is Rels still town reading Hapa or at least not voting them. And why did both Rels and OoO let go of their case on Hapa so readily. What's the motivation. I can see how Rels could be scummy or even scum associated with Hapa.

So heres some scenarios and normally d1 I hate making lots of assumptions but I feel a need to sort this today for some reason.

If OoO's push is town motivated.
1. If Rels is scum.
a. If Hapa is town then Rels is pushing and backing off feels super weird and I'm not sure if they thought they could push a mislynch and the authentically thought that Hapa's response was good enough or not.
b. Hapa is scum then Rels is bussing first to look town and backing off to reinforce incase scumteam can save Hapa.

2. If Rels is town.
a. Hapa is town then Rels back off is warranted and meta read is fine despite looking objectively scummy or null.
b. Hapa is scum and successfully fool'd Rels but not other people.

And those are just if OoO is town. If OoO is scum (unlikely) there's a large subsection of things but the simplest solutions say there is only 1-2 scum in that trio.

My gut won't let me get rid of Hapa's AtE and frustration at the KidDamn counterbalance. But my head says Hapa is scum and Rels may potentially be a partner.

Hopefully that answers your question BV now here's something for Rels.

@Rels you are not voting Hapa. Do you still think Hapa is town? If so why? Please provide some objective based reasons even if it's not many.

I don't see why Rels thinking Hap is some God makes his relent on Hap any less or any more likely to come from scum!Rels if town!Hap.

Like if anything don't you think that If Rels is scum and Hap is town that Rels doesn't care how Hap pushes back and even if he pushes back in not so great way relenting buys him towncred. Like this.

Scum!Rels: Hap isn't playing well he's normally much better! Must be scum!
Town!Hap: "Response that is not entirely objectively towny or could be faked by scum"
Scum!Rels: Welcome to the Game Hap (unvote)

Everyone else goes wait Hap doesn't look town vote Hap. At which point Rels can eventually push back onto Hap. If Hap flips town he can be like see told you so guys. No reason to SR me.

I'd Hap is also scum then Rels can be like oops I guess he fooled me. (this I'd where I think it's unlikely)

So no I don't think it being one sided makes it more or less likely that Hap is scum. Hap might genuinely be fooled by Rels if he is town.

As well if you had a player that you thought had a very good town game and you rolled scum and he maybe just played poorly for a moment you don't think you'd set him up especially if the case is meta driven?

[Hawk]

I was confident before because all of Aubrey's reactions to me hadn't sunk in at that point.

I didn't say anything about your reservations about an Aubrey lynch. I'm saying the reasoning you used "I can't see Aubrey get frustrated like this as town" is made-up reasoning. If anything town are more likely than scum to be frustrated. It looked like you cobbled together whatever you could at that moment to hop onto a lynch wagon.

OMG town tunnel comf!bias everybody.

I say I don't see Aubrey getting frustrated "like this" as town! Aubrey was frustrated by the gamestate and everyone waffling about. I'm referring to this post 1175 . This is not town this is scum.

He's all woe is me I'm getting lynched cause people are fuckwads.

You're fucking head up your ass town just like Aubrey said. You decide to waffle on Hapa and try so hard to find a lynch off wagon. Reserved that Hapa lynch isn't happening you're pressuring Aubrey to the point of insanity and then when his lynch hits L-2 and no one else is voting (specifically OoO isn't wowed by it) You go. no wait! What about Hawk. Hawk is sus because he is saying the same thing I've been fucking saying just from his PoV.

There is literally 1 person and 1 vote on you. That is way over reacted

I'm talking about Aubrey not me there.

And yes I'm probably overreacting because this morning I woke up to us considering an Aubrey lynch over a Hapa lynch and after deliberating I went with my gut a bit here and am now being scumread for it -_-;;

[Hawk]

I will if you clean it up a bit rels. Just post the questions and use the post tag I will look at them when I get the chance.

[Rels]

I will if you clean it up a bit rels. Just post the questions and use the post tag I will look at them when I get the chance.

just go to the post then
viewtopic.php?p=8925594#p8925594

viewtopic.php?p=8925604#p8925604

viewtopic.php?p=8925604#p8925604

[Rels]

viewtopic.php?p=8925637#p8925637

[Rels]

I'm back to KidDamn or Kop as my favorite lynches. Kop more than KidDamn TBH

[BlackVoid]

Let's go for Hawk. I'm townreading KidAmn and I'm not really feeling Kop either way.

[Hawk]

None of what you just said makes any logical sense. You call me head up my ass town but the behaviors you describe seem to be you trying to paint me as scum. On the one hand, you call Aubrey scum, then on the other you say I'm town just like Aubrey said.

Also, trying to paint it like "no one else is voting Aubrey" is wrong. If I hadn't unvoted, I'm pretty sure someone would have compromised onto him as a lynch. There weren't any other viable options.

You are simultaneously complaining that I pressured Aubrey "to the point of insanity" while also calling him scum. Literally nothing in that post is consistent.

*sigh* Give me like 30 minutes to an hour I'm still at work and posting mobile. Im sorry if you're inferring incorrectly about my post. I'm probably not making sense because I'm angry that people kept saying don't end the day a fucking day ago when everyone was kinda decided that Hapa would be the most informational lynch and now we are less than 8 hours away with no decided lynch.

[Rels]

I echo the thoughts of Cassielle regarding Rels.

It would be beneficial if we got a flip on either Hapa or rels, but I am feeling rels more than Hapa at the minute. His whole push on Hapa, and that question that I questioned and a few others he just wouldn't reveal what he intended, it just felt that he was setting Hapa up to suspect then back off when Hapa came into the game properly. I get a strong sense of feeling that it's either bussing, or classic distancing if one was to flip later in the game. It looks worse with Rels backing out of it, which also points to that if Hapa flips town, Rels gains town credit because he can actually safely say well I felt that he was town because of his responses and there isn't any backlash towards Rel because of it.

Just it doesn't feel right anymore, my slight town read that I got has gone.

With scum having day talk, it could have easily been orchestrated and co-ordinated without having to work hard at it, if Hapa flips scum, it would point me heavily towards Rel again.

Taking Rel out would answer a lot towards my thoughts towards Hapa, it could make me think twice in regards to him.

How so ? Reading your post it seems like:
- if I flip scum, Hapa is more likely to be scum because "it's either bussing, or classic distancing if one was to flip later in the game"
- if I flip town, ? I guess Hapa is more likely to be scum 'cause one of us is likely scum in your mind ?
So how do me flipping makes you think twice about Hapa ? Since in the two scenarios Hapa is more likely scum ?
And then you're saying "if Hapa flips town, Rels gains town credit because he can actually safely say well I felt that he was town because of his responses" ? But I thought you were saying one of us being scum incriminated the other ? But if Hapa is town I'm also more likely to be scum ?

I don't understand your logic at all. Please expand

This post in particular made no sense at all.

[BlackVoid]

I don't understand why you are not willing to lynch Hawk, Rels. You were the one who said yesterday that he was likely scum and had him in your pool of lynches. Since then he's only gotten scummier, something which you pointed out yourself too. I don't get the sudden switch back to just KidAmn and Kop.

[BlackVoid]

I'm also not quite clear on your position on Aubrey. I thought we were on the same page yesterday where you agreed that Aubrey's play was scummy. I hard-pushed a wagon on him and then backed off now. Do you have an opinion on all of that?

[Tenshii]

Votecount

1.16

1.17

[L-3] Aubrey - havingfitz, Creature, hapahauli, Hawk
[L-4] Hapahauli - Aubrey, cassielle, KidAmn
[L-6] KidAmn - Rels
[L-6] Rels - Kop
[L-6] Kop - doomfeathers
[L-6] havingfitz - outoforder
[L-6] Hawk - BlackVoid

With 12 alive, a majority vote is decided with 7 players.

Deadline: (expired on 2017-03-01 23:00:00)

Replacement: Searching for a replacement for doomfeathers due to him requesting a replace out

[Rels]

I thought Hawk posts just now were townie. In his position as scum I would have get the fuck out of the thread and waited for deadline. This is townie:

I was confident before because all of Aubrey's reactions to me hadn't sunk in at that point.

I didn't say anything about your reservations about an Aubrey lynch. I'm saying the reasoning you used "I can't see Aubrey get frustrated like this as town" is made-up reasoning. If anything town are more likely than scum to be frustrated. It looked like you cobbled together whatever you could at that moment to hop onto a lynch wagon.

OMG town tunnel comf!bias everybody.

I say I don't see Aubrey getting frustrated "like this" as town! Aubrey was frustrated by the gamestate and everyone waffling about. I'm referring to this post 1175 . This is not town this is scum.

He's all woe is me I'm getting lynched cause people are fuckwads.

You're fucking head up your ass town just like Aubrey said. You decide to waffle on Hapa and try so hard to find a lynch off wagon. Reserved that Hapa lynch isn't happening you're pressuring Aubrey to the point of insanity and then when his lynch hits L-2 and no one else is voting (specifically OoO isn't wowed by it) You go. no wait! What about Hawk. Hawk is sus because he is saying the same thing I've been fucking saying just from his PoV.

There is literally 1 person and 1 vote on you. That is way over reacted

I'm talking about Aubrey not me there.

And yes I'm probably overreacting because this morning I woke up to us considering an Aubrey lynch over a Hapa lynch and after deliberating I went with my gut a bit here and am now being scumread for it -_-;;

Aubrey madness seemed genuine too. Contrary to what a lot of people said.

[BlackVoid]

I don't think they are remotely town. The reasoning he used to vote Aubrey and his reaction upon me calling him by saying "look at those people" is not townie at all.

[Rels]

I prefer a Kop lynch by faaaaaaaar.
UNVOTE: KidDamn
VOTE: Kop

[BlackVoid]

Kop has been completely unremarkable and I don't understand how you made the leap from scumreading Hawk to townreading him for bad reasons right before deadline.

[BlackVoid]

If anything Hawk's play today has been more scummy than before.

[Rels]

Kop has been a non-entity most of the game. Had very "on the side" posts at the beginning of the game. And voted me when my wagon was popular with a weird logic that doesn't make any sense.
Reread the post above. He's only voting me only because of association with Hapa. But whatever I flip Hapa is still more likely scum. Whatever Hapa flips I'm still more likjley scum. This mindset doesn't make sense

[BlackVoid]

Actually that Kop makes perfect sense. I just read it. He's saying that you backing off of Hap was weird and indicated that either you were distancing from a partner and then backed off OR you pushed a town-Hap and then backed off for the towncred. In either scenario, you are scum so he votes you. Fairly straightforward logic.

[Rels]

Did you miss the bolded sentence or what

[Rels]

Actually that Kop makes perfect sense. I just read it. He's saying that you backing off of Hap was weird and indicated that either you were distancing from a partner and then backed off OR you pushed a town-Hap and then backed off for the towncred. In either scenario, you are scum so he votes you. Fairly straightforward logic.

And it ends with "Taking Rel out would answer a lot towards my thoughts towards Hapa, it could make me think twice in regards to him."
How ? Since as you've just said my alignment doesn't change Hapa's

[Rels]

this is annoying. I'm gonna go to sleep soon and I don't wanna waste my vote

[BlackVoid]

You misunderstood his post. You are saying in the two scenarios, Hap is more likely scum. That's not what he said. Kop is saying that your backoff from Hap was weird and suspects you. He could see:
a) Scum-Rels backing off from partner Hap.
b) Scum-Rels backing off from town Hap.
He wants to flip you so if you flip scum, he can re-assess with that knowledge and see what he thinks. It looks pretty cut and dry to me. I'm not sure exactly what he means by "think twice" but I'd rather him answer it and it's nowhere near the smoking gun you are making it seem like, especially in comparison to Hawk's posting.

Pedit: Then vote Hawk with me. It won't be a wasted vote. Outoforder scumreads him. Creature and Aubrey don't seem to be townreading him either and I think they'll be here at deadline.

[BlackVoid]

@Rels, I'll tell you what: vote Hawk with me today and I'll promise to give your Kop case a really close look tomorrow.