Kingmaker II-Game Over

[Yosarian2]

Let's hope he's not scum this time. <.<

Oh, you can always tell. Whenever he's scum, he uses the letter "e" a lot.

[Yosarian2]

Heh... at this point, I'm just trying to decide which n00b didn't make *ME* the king.







Bastard. If I could kill you, I would.

Heh...careful there, Glork. If you gloat too much about your king-ish skills you'll end up killing the hero. Murphy's Law and all that.

[Yosarian2]

Vote Glork

for wanting the king dead

Heh...you do realize he can't actually kill the king today, right?

[Yosarian2]

He wants Elvis dead???

[Yosarian2]

And now begins my masterful plan of finally playing through an entire game without voting. Unless I become king, lol.

vote:MOS

Not acceptable.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian, have you been drinking today? You're a bit more chatty/humorous than normal.

Heh...neah, I was just bored yesterday.

[Yosarian2]

Wow...4 pages to comment on in the last 8 hours? Interesting. Well, let me get started...

Why are you "worried" about protecting the Kingmaker at this point? They're a vanilla townie who passes the role of Kingmaker on to another vanilla townie upon their death. What makes the vanilla townie who selected PJ as king any more worth saving from nightkill than the next vanilla townie down the line? PARTICULARLY this early in the game... Your tears for the lurking Kingmaker taste crocodile-flavored to me and thus your accusations reek of an attempt to cast wrongful aspersions upon a player with a better-than-average record of hunting scum.

Actually, I think it's best that the scum not know who the kingmaker is, becuase then they could AVOID killing him. The scum tend to kill off whomever looks pro-town; it might actually be in our favor if they happen kill off a kingmaker who already looked pro-town, and then if a person who looks less clearly pro-town will become kingmaker, which would hopefully let the town avoid a mislynch and get information in the process about who tried to lynch the kingmaker. If the kingmaker gets outed too early, then the scum can just avoid killing him, and the "confirmed innocence" factor would be less useful.

[Yosarian2]

@PJ, #2C) Deal with it.

Well, I won't "deal with" you not voting. The only thing voting does in this game is give pro-town people information. It gives both the king and the kingmaker direct, easy to find and interpret information about who most of the town finds scummy and who most of the town trusts at any given point in time, both of which are absolutly vital to the town's chances of winning the game. It gives us a clear, easy to follow record of what you think, have thought, and have done during the course of the game. It lets us see who voted for who, when, and why.

Voting gives the town information the town NEEDS to have, and without the normal risks of speedlynches or accidental hammers or such. So refusing to vote is actually an even MORE anti-town action in this game then it would be in a normal game, because in a normal game scum have some solid reasons to vote; here, they have less.

So I think at this point I'm going to continue voting for you, MOS, until you make at least one vote.

[Yosarian2]

fine. lynch me. if, after you lynch me, i'm a townie, just please, like, examine mrbuddylee. he's kind of obnoxious. if town wins, i'll count it as a win for me even if i'm lynched in the first round.

honestly, i trust pj to make the right descision. and actually read what i write. i admit i made factual errors in my earlier posts. i know i'm easy to bandwagon. no self-respecting mafia player would NOT vote for me. Sorry for distracting everybody during the first round and wasting a lynch.

fine. lynch me. if, after you lynch me, i'm a townie, just please, like, examine mrbuddylee. he's kind of obnoxious. if town wins, i'll count it as a win for me even if i'm lynched in the first round.

honestly, i trust pj to make the right descision. and actually read what i write. i admit i made factual errors in my earlier posts. i know i'm easy to bandwagon. no self-respecting mafia player would NOT vote for me. Sorry for distracting everybody during the first round and wasting a lynch.

Things never, ever to do in a mafia game, if you want to win, from bad to worst:

1. Bad. Get frustrated and stop posting.

2. Worse. Actually say "I'm frustrated, I'm going to just stop posting".

3. Worse yet: Say "Just go ahead and lynch me". There's never a good reason to say this, and there's certanly no logical reason for you to give up now; you're not even the #1 suspect based on votes at the moment , I think (although I could be wrong, this game is moving so fast).

4. Worst of all: claim for no good reason, especally if you're a townie. Not as big a deal in this game as others, as almost everyone is a townie, but it's still bad; it gives the scum information and dosn't help the town at all.

Now, all of these are mistakes that newbies seem to make all the time no matter what their alignment, so I'm not going to vote for you just yet. But in general, those are all things that you should never do; they don't help, they just hurt the town and make it more likely you'll be lynched, and I think that you just moved up on everyone's list of suspicion, including mine, because of them.

[Yosarian2]

Bah. That was supposed to be a quote of posts 105 and 108, not a quote of post 108 twice. But you get the idea.

[Yosarian2]

You'd better hope I become King soon, then. I'm not afraid of the big bad vote. If the King decides to execute me, so be it. I don't need votes to tell you who's scum, and I'm certainly not going to conform to anyone's wishes but my own. If you have a problem with it, I guess it sucks to be you.

Can you actually make any kind of argument why you not voting is helpful to the town?

And I don't know why you're assuming the opinion of the people who don't like your "plan" to never vote is meaningless. For one thing, our current king has already said he is going to take votes into account when making a list of people he'd consider executing. For another, making multiple people wonder why you're acting in an apparently anti-town way is bad because you never know who will be king tommorow.

[Yosarian2]

Although that was a joke, I would just like to say we should ALWAYS give the King the benefit of the doubt or else, this day won't be productive at all.

So for now, assume PJ is town and his intentions are good so we won't get sidetracked.


Happy with all of my votes atm.

Eh? Why would we "assume" anything like that?

I mean, it's obveously futile to bandwagon the king today, but if you think the king does something scummy you should say so. The king is just likely to be scum as anyone else.

[Yosarian2]

Nope. It's not antitown, either. It's just how I feel. And I don't feel like voting. Also, I'm not assuming that your opinion is meaningless, I just

don't

care

. For those of you skimmers who use votes to keep track of shit, then you can assume that I find no one scummy, if it makes you happy. If you want to know who I think is scum, you'll actually have to read my posts. If you want a quick reference of what I thought, take notes on what I say. It'll be better for you in the end.

Yes, we can keep track of what you have said without you voting, but it will be harder, and it'll be harder to tell when something was a big deal to you and when you were just making observations. In any case, it'd be damn hard for a king to figure out what the town is thinking without people voting. Let's say you say "Yos is looking scummy", then 5 pages later say "Glork is looking scummy", then later you say "Ameliaslay, you just misrepresented Yosarian". Now think of everyone in the town saying things like that but not voting. Do you really think any king would be able to get an idea of what the town in general thought? Would anyone really feel the need to defend themself?

Voting costs the town nothing, and it gives all kinds of useful information that will help us catch scum. Therefore, voting is a pro-town action.

[Yosarian2]

so? Does it look like I'm trying to make myself look protown?

So...you don't care if you help the town or not, is what you're saying?

[Yosarian2]

I don't really see how trying to tie people together is a scum tell anyway; it's a perfectly reasonable way of trying to find scum.

Clearly I'm suspicious of Twomz, Vaughn, and Ameliaslay. In the future, don't expect me to be this nice about it, either. I will not go around saying "I suspect so-and-so". That's where the whole reading of my posts thing comes into play. Next time do your homework, kthnxbai.

It was not all that clear from those posts that you suspected those people, MOS. Just because I disagree with a point someone makes does not automatically mean I suspect them. And it's still not clear which one you suspect more, and your posts are certanly not going to put any pressure on any of them or get them to respond or defed themselves in any way, and it didn't even get me to take a closer look at them or anything like that, so I must say that as a scum-hunting technique, your one-liner responses without votes seems pretty worthless.

If you're not going to vote, you should at least "fos" or something, and I can't imagine why you wouldn't want to even just clearly state "I am currently suspicious Twomz". Do you really think everyone is going to sit down and pore through every one of your posts to try to get some kind of hint as to what MOS might or might not be thinking?

I don't see how the way you're playing here could possibly help the town in any way, or how it could possibly find scum. Especally in a game where the town has no information roles, if you're not going to help the town find scum during the day, you're going to have to die.

[Yosarian2]

First, the kingmaker would have to declare who they are putting in line to become the next kingmaker should they be mafia'd. Second, those in line to become the next kingmaker would have to declare *who* they would choose to be king the next day should they become kingmaker, and each person's selection *must* be different.

Dosn't work. It would have worked in the last game, and I and several others suggested variations of the plan in kingmaker I; however, the game has been changed.

The Rules

...

You are the Kingmaker. Each night, you must send two player names to me via PM, and you must indicate which player you wish to become King and which is the backup. You may not choose yourself for either position. If the player you chose to be King is still alive in the morning, they will become the King, otherwise, your backup choice will become King. You may not choose the same player two days consecutively unless, at the end of a Day, there are 7 or fewer players remaining. If you are killed (either by the assassins or executed publicly), a new pro-town citizen will be chosen randomly to take your place as the new Kingmaker. You win when all the assassins are executed.

If the kingmaker dies, a new pro-town citizan will be chosen

randomally

to be the new king. No picking this game.

And actually, that "citizan" wording makes me wonder. Not that it really matters yet, but could a hero become a king this game, or not?

[Yosarian2]

And actually, that "citizan" wording makes me wonder. Not that it really matters yet, but could a hero become a king this game, or not?

Heh, you went to the effort of copying and pasting the Kingmaker description from the front page but didn't read the Hero role while you were at it?

The Hero can become King unless someone tries to execute them and their role is revealed, after which point they can no longer reign.

Heh...

I guess I fail at reading.

[Yosarian2]

Um, yeah.

vote pablito

, way too certain that Glork is town, and way too much sucking up to Glork.

Actually, that is a good point. It seems fairly likely that Glork will end up as King eventually, if he dosn't get himself killed first, and it does look like pablito might be trying to make friends with him now so he'll have a better shot at manipulating him later.

fos:pablito

[Yosarian2]

Plus, votes show up in the vote-count, and the king has already said the vote count will influence his list of execution. So there is definatly a difference between a vote and an fos.

[Yosarian2]

Weeks, maybe longer.

I rarely ever FOS. The only reason I would is if I don't want to unvote who i'm voting for, but I want to draw attentio to the fact that i'd like to be voting for the other person as well. I see no reason to use FOSs in this game. When people FOS others just to show that they think the other person is acting scummy but isn't quite scummy enough to warrent a vote... I usually take that as a scum tell.

(shrug) The big difference for me is that if someone does one thing that looks odd, or somewhat scummy, I FOS them to point out that one thing they did is scummy. I usually only vote someone if I look back at all of their posts and come to the conclusion that based on all of their posts they're more likely then average to be scum at that point in time.

[Yosarian2]

PJ... if there's no conversation at all and BMQ is forced to impose a deadline, then what are you going to do? I the last post I made (or maybe second to last) I asked for a LoE, because no one had posted at all... and since then, no real content has been posted. It's not a good idea for the town to drag through the day and then be forced to choose basically a random person to excecute at the last minute because of a deadline. If we can narrow our search and pick out the best candidates out of the people w/ the most votes, then maybe we'll be able to reach a discision before the game dies again. It feels as if the game is draggin unneccessarily at this point... and that actual contribution from the players is nonexistant (or, no content is being posted, take your pick)

Besides, no one is really voting for anyone, and no one is anywhere close to majority... If you don't put at least a couple of people on by your own discression... there won't be a LoE until it's too late to discuss our options.

Agreed. PJ, if you don't want to make a formal LOE just yet, I'd like it if you at least listed a few people you are especally suspicious of at the moment, so we can get some pressure going on someone and get the game moving. The town can't really pressure people very effectivly here; the responsibility to pressure people into getting rections kind of falls on the King.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, some quick thoughts on the people on the king's list of exectuion.

Pablito: His constant defense/buddying up to Glork is a minor scum tell, and he hasn't done much else.

Bird111: all he's done is vote Gork and Pablito for no good reason. Clearly :not helpfull: at best.

Phobus: I really can't get a good read on him at the moment. His shameless bandwagoning dosn't look good, but I'm not sure if it's a scumtell at this point. More suspicious is his refusal to contribute in any real way, with helpful comments like "still nothing to add at this point".

CDB: Don't really see anything too suspicious about him at this point.

[Yosarian2]

vote:Phoebus

[Yosarian2]

Eh...with the deadline coming up, I figured I should vote for the person on the execution list I felt most suspicious of. I honestly don't have a very strong suspicion on anyone at this point, but out of the 4 people the king said he's thinking about executing, you're at the top of my list.

Basically, like I said in an earlier post, my general impression so far is that you've been mostly :nothelpfull:, and the one time you did contribute content it was to shamlessly bandwagon without good reasons.

[Yosarian2]

hrm. lack of participation, lack of posting = not helpful.

lack of vociferousness, lack of scumtells = not scum?

would you be prepared to say that only because I'm not helpful today would mean that I shall be that way all days? would you go as far as making that assumption? or is it just a case of, rather Phoebus than anyone else? or is it a case of, whoever it is, don't matter to me...might as well go for someone on the "LoE"?

Being "not helpful" is a minor scumtell in and of itself; I would inherently expect a good guy to be trying harder to help the town and find scum then I would expect a scum to. And besides, it's in the town's best interest to encourage pro-town behavior, and one way to do that is to lynch people who are not doing pro-town behavior.

Basically, if I can't find any good scum tells, I start looking for pro-town tells (things that make me thing a certain person is more likey then not to be town), and then lynch someone who hasn't made any pro-town tells.

[Yosarian2]

I'm not voting anyone, am I?

[Yosarian2]

That's exactly my point. the fact that he's playing differently does not in and of itself point towards a particular alignment, but if you look at the particular playstyle he's using, while it may not be optimal protown play, there are earmarks here and there that point to him being protown, as I've already pointed out.

Could you be a little more clear on that? What has he done, exactally, that makes you think he's pro-town?

[Yosarian2]

(shrug) With no night info at all and not even much of a voting record, every person who's not contributing is a major strike against the town. If the kings' not going to kill my primary suspect Phoebus, I wouldn't mind him killing any of the lurkers, including Vaughn. Semi-lurkers contribute absolutly nothing to the town this game, not even a vote.

[Yosarian2]

Eh... I *do* want people to restate their stances regarding Bird1111. I'm pretty sure that I remember a handful of peoples' thoughts, but I still want them on record.

I didn't like the bird wagon. And then I said

vote:twomz

for the really scummy way he jumped on the bandwagon. I know his scummy post is gone now, but it's not forgotten.

[Yosarian2]

In any case, my opinion is that MBL's theory is more than plausible, and in reality, likely. Apparently the people agreeing with this theory are somehow "scummy", but I was wondering about that

before

MBL proposed it, so it's not as if I was simply hopping on his idea.

I don't think MBL's origional "kicked-in-the-nuts" theory was suspicious; it's an interestesting speculation that makes some logical sense. I don't think it's a very strong theory, though. It's fairly common for people to suddenly decide they're not going to lurk anymore and to take an interest in a game, and when they do that the first thing most people do is do a re-read and try to figure out what's going on, often making some kind of general game summery post in the process. I've done that pleanty of times when I wanted to catch up with a game I felt behind on, and in fact, MBL himself recently did that in an ongoing game.

But anyway, like I was saying, MBL's "nutkick" theory dosn't seem scummy to me, but it's not very compelling either, so it seems very odd to me the way a very strong bandwagon very quickly appeared and gathered a lot of support based on just that.

Tomez's attacks on bird seemed quite scummy to me at the time. Unfortunatly, the posts are gone, and I myself can't remember all the details.

[Yosarian2]

Most of us are townies, so having Rosso dead is about as beneficial to scum as anyone else. The fact that your reasoning for why scum PJ wouldn't execute Rosso is mostly based on WIFOM is not sitting well with me though.

Well, it might be WIFOM, but a scum-PJ would have to know that it would be hard to accuse him if he simply did what he said he was going to do an execute someone on his list of execution, and then if anyone questioned him on it later, he'd just have to say "well, sorry, but I just went with the town. If you don't like my decision that's fine, but then why aren't you also attacking X, Y, and Z who voted for person A?".

Basically, I don't think PJ's breaking his own rules is a strong argument against him; if he's town, I would expect him to be willing to take a risk and break his own rules if he thought he was more likely to hit a scum that way, but if he's scum, I think he'd be less likely to do that.

[Yosarian2]

Vote: Yosarian2

I think I picked up on something when skimming over his posts. I'll return to it later (probably late tomorrow afternoon), but I'm painfully short on time tonight.?

Eh? If you suspect me, then why are you following my lead when it comes to Pooky, Bird, and Tomez? I'm not getting set up here, am I?

Yosarian: What inspired your change in opinion regarding Phoebus between Post 376 and Post 423?

What change in opinion?


Post 376:

Ok, some quick thoughts on the people on the king's list of exectuion.

Pablito: His constant defense/buddying up to Glork is a minor scum tell, and he hasn't done much else.

Bird111: all he's done is vote Gork and Pablito for no good reason. Clearly :not helpfull: at best.

Phobus: I really can't get a good read on him at the moment. His shameless bandwagoning dosn't look good, but I'm not sure if it's a scumtell at this point. More suspicious is his refusal to contribute in any real way, with helpful comments like "still nothing to add at this point".

CDB: Don't really see anything too suspicious about him at this point.

I mention that I didn't feel like I had a good read on him, but also say that I find his constant lack of contribution and contentless posts suspicious. I also think it's fairly clear from that post that none of those four people was jumping out at me as uber-scummy.

I voted for him in post 423, and then when asked why, I said

Eh...with the deadline coming up, I figured I should vote for the person on the execution list I felt most suspicious of. I honestly don't have a very strong suspicion on anyone at this point, but out of the 4 people the king said he's thinking about executing, you're at the top of my list.

Basically, like I said in an earlier post, my general impression so far is that you've been mostly :nothelpfull:, and the one time you did contribute content it was to shamlessly bandwagon without good reasons.

There was no real change in my reasons for suspecting him. He still had not posted any real content other then the one "bandwagon everyone for no reason" post. Again, as I made clear, I still didn't really have a very strong suspicious about him, but out of the four people on the king's LOE at that point I liked his lynch the best.

[Yosarian2]

Follow

your

lead? I've been calling Pooky scum since the middle of Day One. Heck, when you suggested offing a lurker such as Vaughn, I mentioned Pooky again and explained why he was a better choice than Vaughn. Also, though it can't be verified, I could have sworn that I was the first to vocally reject the Bird-is-scum theory as presented by MBL. As for Twomz... *shrug* so we sortof agree on that point. Twomz is actually lowest on my list of people-who-might-be-executed.

(shrug) I think I was the first one who attacked Twomz and Pooky for the way they joined of the Bird bandwagon, and especally Twomz for some other scummy looking posts where he was pushing it with craplogic, and so I was under the impression you were basically following me there.

You seemed awfully wishy-washy in this post. Saying that you thought he didn't look good, but couldn't commit to such an inkling (even rejecting your own feelings by saying "I'm not sure if it's a scumtell") feels very uncharacteristic of you.

I mention that I didn't feel like I had a good read on him, but also say that I find his constant lack of contribution and contentless posts suspicious. I also think it's fairly clear from that post that none of those four people was jumping out at me as uber-scummy.

So why comment on four people if none of them strike you as particularly scummy? If you're going to make a post and judge some players, wouldn't it be more helpful to make some "I think this guy is scum" posts rather than "I kinda almost suspect this person, but not really because I can't read him" posts?
[/quote]

This game was crawling, the king had make a LOE basically out of desperation in order to try to make something happen and still no one was saying anything. I didn't really feel like I had much to say, but I knew that if i wanted to help the town I had to do something and say something and try to get the conversation moving, so I went back, re-read all the posts by the 4 people on the king's list of execution, and made comments in order to try to get conversation going.

So basically you fence-sat until near-deadline, then picked someone who you "couldn't get a good read on" because he was on the king's List of Execution? Again, this seems very unlike the Yosarian I'm used to seeing. I'm finding it very hard to believe that someone with your talent and experience "[doesn't] have a very strong suspicion on anyone" after nearly 20 pages' worth of discussion.

(shrug) If the king says he's going to execute person A, B, C, or D, and a deadline is coming up, I'd expect everyone to weigh in and say which one of the four of them they would execute. Just like if a deadline's coming up in a normal game and it's clear that either person A, B, or C will be lynched, I will usually vote for one of the three of them.

Besides, while Phobes' behavior hadn't really changed, the fact that he was still being :not helpfull: with a deadline coming up and after I and others had already made an attempt to poke at him and get him to contribute made me feel better about lynching him.

[Yosarian2]

vote: Yosarian2

. I'm not liking the defense right now, but it's possible that he's just misguided because of his lack of comprehension of the game timeline. Also I may be biased because I'm totally buying all of Glork's arguments on Yos.

...what arguments would those be, exactally?

[Yosarian2]

Here's why he was wishy-washy.

He says he cannot get a good read on Phoebus.
He says that bandwagoning "does not look good," indicating that he finds it suspicious.
He says that he is not sure if it's a scumtell, indicating that he doesn't really find it suspicious yet -- a contradiction to his prior statement that he finds Phoebus' it suspicious
He says that Phoebus' refusal to contribute is suspicious -- which would appear to contradict his initial statement that he cannot get a read on Phoebus.


I'm not saying that not having a firm stance is scummy. I'm saying that making conflicting comments within the same post while analyzing your thoughts on a player is scummy. Had Yosarian said something like "I think A is scummy, but I think B is pretty pro-town, so I don't have a good read on him yet," I wouldn't have a problem. Instead Yosarian points out two things he finds suspicious, and mentions that he can't read Phoebus and that he's "not sure" if Phoebus' suspicious behavior is scummy. Seems to me that suspicious behavior is, well... inherently scummy.

When I said it "does not look good", I meant exactally what I said; it looked bad. That it, I wasn't sure if it really was a scum tell, but I could understand in any case why people were voting for him for it, becuase it looks bad.

I wasn't getting get a good "read" on him; that is my gut wasn't really giving me a strong feeling one way or the other. Which could have been because he wasn't really saying anything.

There really were not any conflicting comments in my post.

[Yosarian2]

Unvote Mert

, his logic has improved a lot; and poor logic was the main reason for my vote

Vote Yosarian2

as like Glork, I don't like his wishwashiness in his section about Phoebus in post 416. Also in 547; after Glork requested that everyone state their stances of me, Yosarian said that he had been against my bandwagon, which contridicted his last post that involved me, also 416, made it seem like he was neutral or slightly for my bandwagon.

Glork, why the unvotes?

Were you even reading the game before the crash?

I spent quite a bit of time and energy defending you and attacking the people attacking you today, after your analysis post. Those posts are gone, but I'm sure anyone paying attention to the game remembers them; we had actually gotten quite a large bandwagon on Twomz that I started all because of his attack on you. Those posts are gone, but I'm sure anyone paying attention remembers them. Were you paying any attention to the game?

In post 416 I said you had not contributed, because you had not. When i defended you today, you had contributed.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, and

vote:pablito

. Yesterday I had the feeling he was trying to get on Glork's "good side" so that he could manipulate him when he became king, and today it seems he's trying to manipulate Glork into killing a good guy by just saying "I agree with everything Glork said and disagree with everything Yos said" without actually responding to anything or giving any reasons.

And meanwhile, Phoebus is still pushing bad bandwagons with absolutly no reason.

fos:phoebus

[Yosarian2]

Relook over my post, I think you are misunderstanding my point completly.

Um, no, I don't think so. You were attacking me partly because you said I was "contradicting" myself by saying I had been defending you, which is pretty clearly both untrue and rather absurd as I had, in fact, been defending you today. I did say yesterday that I didn't like your lurking, but that dosn't apply today as you've been more active. So how was I "contradicting" myself?

Yosarian,

bad bandwagons = the "wagon" on you?

Or bird's thang?
I've clarified my thoughts on bird. Most of which are lost now.
If you see no reason in my argument, please qualify that by saying "pushing wagons for no reason that I see" and don't just omit the last part. That's just insulting. Don't make me go all Glork on you

Both your vote for me and your vote for bird. Just two more examples of you voting for people without giving reasons, and in those cases, both look like bad wagons to me.

Anyway, I'm sure you do have reasons for your votes. I just don't know if you have pro-town reasons, and if you won't give reasons for any of your votes I have no way of knowing that.

Pablito: When you say "I agree with everything Glork said" and "I don't like Yosarian's defense" while not saying WHAT you agree with about what Glork said or what you disagree with about what you said, I tend to think you're trying to push Glork in a certain direction ("hey, people agree with me here, I must be right") without committing yourself to anything concrete that could come back and haunt you when I get executed and show up as a dead townie. You're trying to ride Glork's coattails here, trying to cause a bad lynch without making any of your own arguments, and that's scummy.

Glork: Um, well offhand I can give you two people I think are pro-town. I think Bird is pro-town, even though his seemingly irrational vote for me is annoying me; I think his analysis at the start of the day looked pro-town, and I think that the rapid pile-on bandwagon on him for such a weak reason looked scum driven. I also think that you are pro-town; your arguments today seem rational, and I don't think a scum-king would take a risk like suddenly going after an experenced player like me out of the blue like that, I would expect a scum-king to be more of a follower.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian, what I meant is that you contridicted yourself by saying that you had been against my bandwagon, when your're previous post that mentioned me showed you as being neutrual/slightly for my bandwagon, therefore you contridicted yourself

Except I HAD been against your bandwagon. I argued against it a great deal in posts that were deleated when the game crashed.

Yesterday, when you were lurking, I said you were lurking. Today, when you weren't lurking and people attacked you for BS reasons, I defended you rather extensivly.

I'm not sure how many different ways I can say this. Do you know that several days worth of posts were lost in the crash, right? Did you read any of them?

[Yosarian2]

Yosairain, at the time of your post saying that you were against my bandwagon, you had never posted anything that showed that you were against my bandwagon

YES, I DID.

For about the 5th time, I posted several posts saying I was against your bandwagon, but they were lost in the crash.

I'm not sure how many different ways I can say this. Do you know that several days worth of posts were lost in the crash, right? Did you read any of them?

[Yosarian2]

Still here

[Yosarian2]

Also, Yosarian... I'd like you to do 2-3 people, instead of just one more. I don't want to let you off easy, as I feel like I might know someone else you'll pick as a pro-town player.

:eyebrow:

You expect me to be able to name 4-5 people as pro-town, on day 2 of a vanillia game, when the day 1 lynch was a townie that most people hadn't even commented on before he died, and then give detailed reasons for all 5 people?

I'm going to do a re-read soon, as I'd expect everyone to do when the forums been down on and off for about two weeks, and I'll share any new observations I have, but sheesh.

[Yosarian2]

I'm not asking you to make your inklings set in stone. But surely you must think that some player are more pro-town than others. In my initial assignment, I said who do you think is

most likely

to be pro-town. This is nothing permanent. There's no "I absolutely believe that this person is pro-town and I will not be swayed in my opinon." But I would imagine that you can at least name a few other people who are on your good side.

Why do you ask, anyway? Shouldn't we be hunting scum now instead of hunting town?

Anyway, like I said, the bandwagon against Bird made me think he's more likely town then not, and your behavior today has struck me as pro-town.

I'm also getting a pro-town vibe from Pablito's posts; one thing specifically that strikes me is that I don't think it's very likely a scum would defend cardboard box; if CB was town I'd expect scum to be more likely to pile on the easy wagon, and if CB was scum I doubt his scum-buddy'd stick out his neck like that for him on day 1. Either way, I think pablito is probably a good guy.

After that, it gets harder. If I had to guess, I'd guess PJ was town based on his actions and the style of his posts; it doesn’t seem to me that scum would act the way he did at the end of the day on day one, but that's a very WIFOM argument and I'm not putting a lot of faith in it, especially as he did end up killing a townie and giving us next to no information from day 1 in the process.

And there's really no one else I'd feel comfortable giving even conditional support to at this time.

[Yosarian2]

And yes, I consider many players good players, MoS, CTD, Yos amongst them. Scum can't kill all the good ones N1, so obviously your presence amongst the living right now is not a scumtell. But YOU got kinged, Glork got kinged, and Pooky is an award-winner. I chose to name you three because you're high profile and die often and early as far as I know. I'd think scum would have feared a Glorking D2 and significantly considered offing him.

Eh... in all fairness, I consider Thok at least as good a player as myself or PJ. I would also guess that scum likely considered killing me overnight. But there are several ripe N1 targets, I feel. To say that skilled players are more likely to be scum just because they outlived other skilled players is, IMO, a little absurd.

Well, in all fairness, I think I've seen you get killed night 1 or night 2 more then anyone else lately, Glork.

Anyway, he made pretty clear that that he didn't consider you being alive right now as a scumtell. He was just saying that if high profile players are still alive later in the game to keep an eye on them.

Then again, that's still not always true. I did survive until quite late in the game in both Kingmaker 1 and Himalayan mafia, even though I seem to get killed night 1 in about half the games I'm in.

[Yosarian2]

I'm at Page 19 right now, jumping out from my notes so far are Yosarian2 and Vaughn (now Der Hammer). I think they're quite scummy so far.

Have fun discussing this while I'm off. My reread will continue in the evening.

I'm quite scummy? Care to expand on that one?

[Yosarian2]

..boy, this is rather embarassing. I had forgotten most of the details about this game in the 10 days the site was down, and when I did a re-read to answer Glork's question, I seem to have come to a completly different opinion then what I had thought before the crash, and I didn't re-read my own posts so I didn't even notice. I just went back to see who I was voting for, and it turns out I'm voting for one of the people I just said I thought was innocent.

unvote:pablito

I'm most suspicious of Twomz and Phoebus at this point.

[Yosarian2]

I wish I could figure out why people in most of the games I'm in right now suddenly are convinced I'm scum without being able to give any good reasons. Was I just playing wierd last month or something?

Anyway, it's rather disturbing the way Glork got all those "homework assignments" and failed to comment on any of them. I'm having second thoughts about his alignment, especally as "make a list of 5 people you think are pro-town" does not seem like something a pro-town person is likely to demand someone else do on day 2. And he neglected to answer my question about why he wanted that information.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian2

: Another interesting case. I had three scum vibes from him, from Posts 189, 376 and 426. He defended Mert and attacked MoS. He FoSed pablito. He pressured PJ to pressure others (instead of doing it himself). He voted Phoebus. Though Glork stated he thought Yos was pro-town Day 1, he attacked Yos Day 2, an attack against Yos defended himself very awkwardly. He voted Twomz and pablito.

Care to elaborate a bit there?

Post 189:

I don't really see how trying to tie people together is a scum tell anyway; it's a perfectly reasonable way of trying to find scum.

Clearly I'm suspicious of Twomz, Vaughn, and Ameliaslay. In the future, don't expect me to be this nice about it, either. I will not go around saying "I suspect so-and-so". That's where the whole reading of my posts thing comes into play. Next time do your homework, kthnxbai.

It was not all that clear from those posts that you suspected those people, MOS. Just because I disagree with a point someone makes does not automatically mean I suspect them. And it's still not clear which one you suspect more, and your posts are certanly not going to put any pressure on any of them or get them to respond or defed themselves in any way, and it didn't even get me to take a closer look at them or anything like that, so I must say that as a scum-hunting technique, your one-liner responses without votes seems pretty worthless.

If you're not going to vote, you should at least "fos" or something, and I can't imagine why you wouldn't want to even just clearly state "I am currently suspicious Twomz". Do you really think everyone is going to sit down and pore through every one of your posts to try to get some kind of hint as to what MOS might or might not be thinking?

I don't see how the way you're playing here could possibly help the town in any way, or how it could possibly find scum. Especally in a game where the town has no information roles, if you're not going to help the town find scum during the day, you're going to have to die.

Post 189 was me pointing out, again, why MOS's plan of action was and is directly harmfull to the town. If someone does something that's bad for the town, it makes it more likely they're scum, and it also means that pro-town people should try to pressure them to act differently. I don't see why people don't seem to get that, with Glork dismissing my attack against MOS as a "metagame vote" and no one else willing to back me up to put more pressure on him. So what, exactally, is scummy about that post?

Post 376:

Ok, some quick thoughts on the people on the king's list of exectuion.

Pablito: His constant defense/buddying up to Glork is a minor scum tell, and he hasn't done much else.

Bird111: all he's done is vote Gork and Pablito for no good reason. Clearly :not helpfull: at best.

Phobus: I really can't get a good read on him at the moment. His shameless bandwagoning dosn't look good, but I'm not sure if it's a scumtell at this point. More suspicious is his refusal to contribute in any real way, with helpful comments like "still nothing to add at this point".

CDB: Don't really see anything too suspicious about him at this point.

King PJ had asked for comments about the people on his list of execution, and so I re-read all the posts of those people and posted my thoughts. More people should have done that, but they weren't. If you want to find scum, why not look at the people who weren't trying to help the king make a decision, as opposed to the few people who were?

Post 426:

Eh...with the deadline coming up, I figured I should vote for the person on the execution list I felt most suspicious of. I honestly don't have a very strong suspicion on anyone at this point, but out of the 4 people the king said he's thinking about executing, you're at the top of my list.

Basically, like I said in an earlier post, my general impression so far is that you've been mostly :nothelpfull:, and the one time you did contribute content it was to shamlessly bandwagon without good reasons.

And again, what's wrong with this post? When the king says "I'm going to execute one of these three people", every pro-town person in the game SHOULD comment on that, and say "Well, if you're going to execute A, B, or C, I'd suggest B, because....".

Now, as for your other points:

He pressured PJ to pressure others (instead of doing it himself).

I'd been trying to pressure MOS for most of the day, and it did exactally nothing. He basically ignored me, everyone else basically ignored me, and nothing changed at all, he felt absolutly no pressure to change his anti-town behavior. So yeah, I came to the conclusion that we needed to have the king start pressuring people if we were going to get anywhere. Do you disagree?

He voted Phoebus.

Yup, and I still think he's scum. What's your point?

he attacked Yos Day 2, an attack against Yos defended himself very awkwardly

I "defended myself against very awkwardly"? How so? What in my defense did you disagree with?

[Yosarian2]

Ah, simulpost.

I've already stated quite a good case against you, but apparently, you see it as having no good reasons.

You defended Mert, who I view as scummy.

Just wondering...when did I defend mert? I don't remember doing that.

I'm not getting the scumhunting vibe from you I got in Reverse.

(shrug) I'm sure I was giving off a different vibe in reverse, it was a very different game. For one thing, in Reverse I spent the whole day 1 trying to get myself "elected".

[Yosarian2]

Now, with regards to why I gave you that assignment: The initial question (pick three people) was because I wanted to see where you placed your "trust" (note that I use this term very lightly). I asked you an unusual question specifically to get you thinking in an unusual manner. Sometimes figuring out who you think is pro-town can lead you to find scum. I was sorta hoping you would do that; obviously it didn't happen. The reason I expanded it to 5 is because I realized that 3 wouldn't give me any info on you. When you answered 'Bird and Glork' initially, my internal reaction was "well, that's not too surprising." And then I realized that asking for 3 people isn't very controversial or revealing. If I want to get good info on you, I need to make you pick out something solid amongst the grey matter that is the "middle of the bunch." Yeah, it's easy to name one or two people you think are pro-town. But I wanted to make you look at other players, to think about who you like and who you don't like, and to pick amongst the uncertainty something -- some opinion, some significant conclusion -- that you are able and willing to share. I must say, I've been sorely disappointed that your response was effectively "well, I guess PJ too but after that it gets tough." That's not the kind of response I either expected or wanted to see. I guess that's partly why I continue to suspect you. You're still showing this unwillingness to dive down into the muck and get your hands dirty. I get this distinct nagging feeling that you're trying to be cautious, that you're still avoiding major confrontations (for the most part... this could turn into one), that you're still trying to slide by without voicing any firm suspicions one way or another. You can't seem to get good reads on people who might be scumbags. You're not willing to do some scrounging to find any significant number of people who might be townies. That kind of unwillingness, IMO, is rather scummy. It's the main reason that you're on my list.

In general, I'm very reluctent to make a long list of people I think are pro-town this early in the game. If I have a hunch someone might be scum, I'll say so, but if I have a hunch someone might be pro-town I usually don't. Saying "I think person X might be pro-town", if X isn't being attacked, is generally not very useful (it's not likely to start an argument, for one thing), if everyone did that it'd make it much easier for scum to manipulate conversation (by keeping people who trust them alive), and of course if you turn out to be wrong you've just linked yourself to a scum.

Now, if someone I think is probably pro-town is being attacked, I will defend them, becuase that does help the town. But if not, I'm usually reluctent to mention who I think is pro-town this early in the game. Later in the game, when "finding scum by process of elimination" starts to be a useful tactic, I'll say who I think is pro-town, but this early in the game I'm generally reluctent to do that.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, Glork, you do need to comment on the "homework assignments". Trying to say that you should "not be the focus of discussion" is really kind of a cop-out, considering you've been quite intentional about trying to direct the discussion in the directions you wanted it to go. The reason we're talking about me, for example, is entirley becuse you claim to be suspicious of me. As you yourself pointed out, you are not cleared this game, Glork, and so I want to know what you think.

At this point, it feels like you're just trying to pull the strings without "getting your hands dirty" yourself, and I don't trust it. Especally something like the question you gave me. You say that you were just trying to "ask me an unusual question", which is plausable. However, it created a question in my mind, and made me wonder if you wanted to know who I trusted so you could decide if I should be kept alive or not. Especally when you didn't comment on any of my reasoning or anything there, while I would think that if you really wanted to "know what I was thinking", I would expect you to Glork-analyze that post in some detail.

[Yosarian2]

Pablito: I do think Twomz is scum; the big problem is that the most suspicious stuff he did involved posts that were lost in the crash. That dosn't make him any less scummy, and I still do think he's most likely scum, but it's harder to put together detailed arguments against him when I can't quote those posts.

[Yosarian2]

Explain to me how you think that is, in any way, a good idea. (And I don't want to see you say, "lynching a lurker will force the other lurkers to participate." Lurkers will be lurkers. And as people get more behind on the game, they will be less inclined to want to catch up. Experience has taught me that sad fact time and time again, so while the idealist in you might want to "set an example" by executing a lurker, I can just about guarantee that it won't be the case.)

No one said you should execute a random lurker, Glork, although it wouldn't be a bad thing to kill someone who is both scummy looking AND a lurker. However, we do need to have the king put pressure on lurkers, and there's no reason there shouldn't be some lurkers on your LOE.

"Lurkers will be lurkers" is simply not true; many or most lurkers will start posting if they feel like continuing to lurk will put them in danger.

[Yosarian2]

For the rest, I find MoS's way of playing not in any way to hurt the town. I have quite a few entries in which MoS stated opinions, so your attack on him is based only on "he won't vote", while votes aren't even that relevant. You seem to find deliberately not casting votes as scummier than deliberately not posting.

Hardly; if someone stood up and said "I'm going to basically just lurk all game and never contribute anything useful, and only post just often enough so as to not get replaced", I would certanly vote for them, because that's anti-town behavior, and the town should never put up with anti-town behavior.

Now, later in the day he did start participating in a useful way dispite the bizzare self-imposed limitation he put on himself, at which point I backed off on attacking him, but I certanly don't think I was wrong to attack him for that early on.

I don't like how you post conflictingly here. You state Phoebus, pablito and bird as both scummy and townish. I don't like the general tone of your post.

(shrug) The game was dragging, people were not posting, and there was a deadline coming up. I didn't feel like I had much to say either, but we needed to get conversation going, so I just re-read all of the posts of the people on the execution list and wrote down my thoughts as they came to me. I was trying to stir discussion on those three people, becuase it seemed clear that the king was going to execute on of them, and it apparently failed as most people still didn't comment on them. This game has been pretty frustrating for me pretty much all the way through, and all game I've felt like I've been talking into an echo chamber where everyone ignores me and nothing I say or do seems to matter.

You ignore everyone but those on the scum list, as if you're happy with whatever happens. You think inside the box. That's not something I'm used to from you.

Again, based on PJ's earlier thoughts, it seemed clear that he WAS going to execute someone on that list, and there was nothing I could do about that. Anyway, if someone picks three people they think are suspicious, the odds are very good that at least one of them is scum, so there's certanly something to be gained by wieghing in on which one looked most suspicious to me.

Now, if I had looked at PJ's list and thought that all three of the people looked townie to me, I would have said so. I did not.

I think you should always try to do your own job, instead of asking others to do it for you.

I think that in this kind of game we need to have at least some support from the king in order to put pressure on people. No one really feels pressured unless they really think they're at risk.

Now, it dosn't have to be active support; if the King just said something like "Anyone with 8 votes will be automatically added to the LOE", then votes would be a useful form of pressure. But without at least the passive support of the King, it's very hard to pressure people.

I don't.

Ok. What has Phoebus done that makes you think he's pro-town? Use specifics, please.

he attacked Yos Day 2, an attack against Yos defended himself very awkwardly

I "defended myself against very awkwardly"? How so? What in my defense did you disagree with?

[/quote]

I think your defense against the attacks on you and your attacks on Glork aren't very strong.[/quote]



I was asking for specifics here. What about my defense do you disagree with?

[Yosarian2]

Yos has been primarily defensive, and suspects Twomz and Phoebus, two people who haven't said much. For bad votes with no stated reasons on bad wagons. He finds PJ pablito bird cbox townish. He's gone from finding Glork explicitly pro-town to finding him suspect over the past three weeks.

That's another reason that I don't like to declare that I think certain people are pro-town; because then it makes it harder for me to later attack that person if I change my mind.

[Yosarian2]

I also have to say that I agree with MBL's comment; Glork's decleration that he's "already decided who he's going to execute" is hardly likely to stir dicussion. There's no more reason for anyone else to attack, or defend, or share thoughts at that point, unless perhaps they thought they might be executed or nightkilled and wanted to get their thoughts down on paper before that happened (which is basically what I'm doing now). Otherwise, though, it's pretty much just giving permission for the lurkers to keep lurking, secure in the knowlege that they're not going to get killed today for lurking and that if they get attacked for lurking later then they can just post then, and it completly takes away the motivation for people to scumhunt today, when today's already been decided and tommorow they'll have more information. It means that the scum no longer have any reason to try to manipulate you, and that good guys no longer have any reason to stick out their neck trying to defend someone they think is a good guy (after all, why take the risk of doing that if you've already made up your mind?) or to attack someone.

[Yosarian2]

The real problem is that we got almost no information day 1, because the king executed someone almost no one had commented on, and most people in the game haven't commented on most people in the execution list it looks like we're heading that way again (although a few now have; nice summery SV).

This is what needs to happen.

Cardboardbox probably needs to be replaced, he's vanished from the game I'm modding as well.

Glork needs to recend his statemtent that he's "already decided", and go back to keeping an open mind, at least long enough for everyone to answer the following question. And it's also help if you lean on anyone who dosn't answer the questions below.

Everyone else needs to answer the following questions:

1. What do you think of Glork's current LOE? If you were king, what would your LOE look like?

2. If we were going to pick and execute one person on the current LOE, who would it be, and why?

We need everyone to comment on the person who gets executed and the LOE in general before any execution happens, otherwise we're never going to get any information.

[Yosarian2]

Hardly; if someone stood up and said "I'm going to basically just lurk all game and never contribute anything useful, and only post just often enough so as to not get replaced", I would certanly vote for them, because that's anti-town behavior, and the town should never put up with anti-town behavior.

Now, later in the day he did start participating in a useful way dispite the bizzare self-imposed limitation he put on himself, at which point I backed off on attacking him, but I certanly don't think I was wrong to attack him for that early on.

Two interesting things to note: MoS never said he wouldn't contribute. He simply said he wouldn't vote. There is no huge disadvantage to not voting in this setup, if you contribute.

No, he didn't say he wouldn't contribute, and I was never trying to imply that he did. You're trying to take my words out of context here by deleating the part of your post that I was responding to, and as you took the effort of quoting the post and then deleating your words.

The post of yours that I was responding to was this:

For the rest, I find MoS's way of playing not in any way to hurt the town. I have quite a few entries in which MoS stated opinions, so your attack on him is based only on "he won't vote", while votes aren't even that relevant. You seem to find deliberately not casting votes as scummier than deliberately not posting.

You said "You're attacking MOS for not deliberately not voting, but you're not attacking people who are deliberately not posting". And I pointed out the incorrect logic of your statement by saying "I will never contribue anything this game", I would vote for them. In other words, if anyone actually announced a stratagy of delibratly not posting the way MOS announced a stratagy of delibartly not voting, I would have voted for them.

I never said that MOS was deliberately not contributing; I was correcting your mistaken notion that I thought delibratly not voting was worse then delibratly not contributing. I don't like the way you were trying to take my conversation out of context and try to spin to to make it soudns like I meant something I did not by removing your quote I responded to.

As for the second thing, MoS is the only "non-contributor" who you have attacked in this way. We have far more non-contributors, who have contributed far less than MoS. I don't see you calling those out, specifically.

I didn't attack MoS for being a "non-contributor", and that's not true anyway; one of the main reasons I supported a Phobus lynch over the other options PJ offered yesterday was because of lack of useful contrabution on his part.

You didn't raise amazing points regarding the three. Your opinions were mainly one-liners.

What's your point? I was trying to answer the King's question by giving quick opinions on all the people he had on his LOE, so I did a quick re-read of their posts and posted some thoughts; yes, I didn't go into a lot of detail, but it was more of a response then anyone else was giving at the time. Later, I did some more reading on the suspects, and decided that I was in favor of a Phoebus execution.

Your stances on all 4 were noncommittal. I find that very suspicious.

At that point, it was; it was sort of a stream of consiousness post, typed out as I was re-reading their posts. I made a commitment a little later.

You didn't even try, you just told the King to do it. However small, pressure is pressure.

Someone else said the king should pressure lurkers, and I agreed. Is there something wrong with that?

I like his voting behaviour, or most of it (votes on Mert and you). I think
MoS is town, and MoS is very sure about Phoebus' townieness.

#1 is a circular argument; you think I'm scum partly because I'm attacking Phoebus, who you think is pro-town, and you think I'm scum partly because I'm attacking him. It's an especally bad argument as I know you're wrong about me, a possibility you have apparently not even considered.

Your second argument is basically "I think he's town because MOS thinks he's town", which makes me wonder if you're trying to hide behind MOS on this one; if Phoebus turns out to be scum, you can always just blame MOS.

Basically, I agree with Glork's points in Post 601.

And now you're hiding behind Glork.

[Yosarian2]

Edit to stick in a few words that I forgot to put in:

You said "You're attacking MOS for not deliberately not voting, but you're not attacking people who are deliberately not posting". And I pointed out the incorrect logic of your statement by saying that if anyone made the statement "I will never contribue anything this game", I would vote for them. In other words, if anyone actually announced a stratagy of delibratly not posting the way MOS announced a stratagy of delibartly not voting, I certanly would have voted for them.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, by the way, I just remembered that Glork asked a while ago to see a few games where I was scum. That was a while ago, but just in case anyone still cares:

Library Mafia: (I put it first both because it's a short game and because it's one I actually won. )
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 01&start=0

Urban Legends Mafia:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 19&start=0

Cultural Revolution mafia:

Survivor Mafia: (I don't especally reccomend you try to read this one, as it's probably the most boring game of mafia ever played)
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 93&start=0

[Yosarian2]

There's a huge difference between not posting and not voting. You can not vote and still contribute. You can't not post and still contribute. If someone announces they will not vote, does that make them scummier than someone who simply doesn't post?

No, not at all. Notice, though, that I first attacked MOS for that comment back on september 15, only one day after the game started, which is a little too early to go lurker-hunting.

This is the relevant quote, from Post 189:

I don't see how the way you're playing here could possibly help the town in any way, or how it could possibly find scum. Especally in a game where the town has no information roles, if you're not going to help the town find scum during the day, you're going to have to die.

Not contributing to finding scum-->Attack.

Right. I was saying that his playstyle of refusing to vote for anyone was not going to help the town find scum; votes are how we make connections between people. So yes, i was attacking him for that. If a person says they're going to act in a way that I think is not helpful to the town, of course I'm going to attack him for it.

What could the King do with your opinions? They were pretty much all "Well, he could be scum, and he could be town."

Well, that re-read and the thoughts I put down in that post helped me figure out that I wanted Phoebus executed. I don't know if they helped anyone else form an opinion or not.

Basically, the only real point you're attacking me with here that makes any sense at all is that you're basically saying I should have tried harder to hunt lurkers on day 1. Which is fair enough; I did use certain people's lack of participation in order to help draw conclusions about them, but I never really activally lurker hunted the way I sometimes do. However, that could also be said of most of the people in the town, very few people spent a lot of time lurker hunting on day 1.

[Yosarian2]

So far, the only people who have directly answered my questions are

LuckayLuck
PJ
and Zindaras.

A few others have made enough comments about the LOE that I know what they feel (like MBL, and SV) but for the most I have no idea where most people in the game stand, which means that any execution won't give us the information we'll need tommorow.

Everyone who has not done so, please answer the questions.

Everyone else needs to answer the following questions:

1. What do you think of Glork's current LOE? If you were king, what would your LOE look like?

2. If we were going to pick and execute one person on the current LOE, who would it be, and why?

We need everyone to comment on the person who gets executed and the LOE in general before any execution happens, otherwise we're never going to get any information.

[Yosarian2]

Care to give any actual reason for that, MOS? Or are you just still annoyed that I attacked you day 1?

[Yosarian2]

The continued interruptions with the site do nothing to help my train of thought about this game.

You are allowed to call it laziness but as far as I'm concerned, I skim the posts to see if anything is addressed to me and I shall respond to it until further notice.
Zindaras said that "He asked you a question" which led me to believe that yos had directed one specifically at me and I don't usually miss those.
Seeing as this was not the case and seeing as thanks to your pointing them out, I now know the questions, my stand on it was summarised pertinently by my first post since the latest interruption.


...

Kill anyone. I don't care.
I am almost tempted to volunteer to put myself out of my misery but given that the fag end of this day has spanned two interruptions, I'd decided that I would contribute something on the next game day. If that is acceptable, that would be great because I'm not someone who opts out of a game for trivial reasons.

Normally, I'd have some sympathy for this, as I think most of us feel kind of the same way after those interuptions, but you didn't contribute much of value before the crashes either. That's why I wanted you executed back on day 1, was because you hadn't done anything relevent except for some blind logicless bandwagoning, and even before the crashes you didn't do much at all on day 2 either.

You've just been useless for most of the game, and your few posts have generally managed to be both useless and hostile/agressive, which is a weird and scummy looking combination. Glork, is there any reason this guy isn't on your LOE?

[Yosarian2]

Although I don't think it is correct to talk about games which are not finished, I am actually getting the same impression. I am seeing two similarities in play:

1.) Bird1111 began both games with a vote, and immediately retracted them as silently as possible
2.) Bird1111 disappeared (and presumably went into lurking mode) as soon as the slightest bit of pressure was put on him for doing so

The difference lies in the fact that he has said things Day Two in this game. I don't think my vote will be moving off of him today, at this point.

So, I guess the question is, how does he act when he's town? Is that his standard playstyle, or is that his scum playstyle?

[Yosarian2]

(shrug) You've been unhelpful all game, and it's apparenlty not because you're not around because you have been posting. You've been both agressive and hostile at different times during the course of this game, which makes me think you have some emotional involvement in this game, and yet you haven't done anything that looks like an attempt to help the town, to find scum or defend someone you think isn't scum, to plan stratagy or suggest a course of action. Because of that, I'm suspicious of you; I think you care about this game, dispte your post-crash post that seemed designed to make us all think you're not at all interested in it, and yet you don't seem interested in doing anything that might help the town; the only time you've done anything at all was when you voted for people that were already being bandwagoned and/or attacked, and not once have you given any decent reason for it. The only significant things you've done at all today was to follow the bird wagon, and then later vote for me and pablito AFTER the king put us on his LOE because of "guts". So, yes, you are on my list of top suspects; you don't look like you're hunting scum to me, it looks more like you're following trends, Kings, and bandwagons without giving any of your own reasons.

As for your other comment:

rather than look at people who've been more blatantly lacking in townieness?

So, you think there are people who are "blatenlty lacking in townieness"? Who would that be? And, more to the point, if you think you've figured out that certain people you think are not acting like townies, why haven't you been attacking them? Or attacking anyone, for that matter? If you think that certain people have been "blatently lacking in townieness", then why would you say something like this?

Kill anyone. I don't care.

[Yosarian2]

That was an invitation to meta-game Yos.

Go compare participation before drawing conclusions about being around or otherwise.

Again, Phoebus, I'm asking you; who, exactally, is acting less townishly then you are?

Right now, you're about my #2 suspect. My #1 suspect is Twomz, who's participation is even less useful then yours and who's actions during the lost-posts birdwagon were very suspicious, but he dosn't appear to be around at the moment, and for some reason no one else seemes interested in him anymore even though there was a large bandwagon on him earlier in the day.

[Yosarian2]

I think Twomz just needs to be replaced. I wouldn't hold the inactivity against him right now.

Fair enough; the reasons I'm suspicous of him, though, have nothing to do with current activity, and everything to do with his earlier actions before the crashes, both his general lack of helpfulness and his actions during the birdwagon. In fact, you agreed with me at one point that his earlier actions today were scummy.

[Yosarian2]

...yeah, that whole Burden of Proof thing still has me. Unfortunately, I don't think we'll get an explanation or a defense at all.

Honestly, there's such a problem finding replacements now for all games that I'd be more willing to lynch a lurker then usual in any of my games now then I'd usually be, just because we might never get a replacement for him, and there's a shortage of replacements in general.

[Yosarian2]

Here's some food for thought this weekend (as I'll be gone from tomorrow until Monday sometime):

Remove MBL, Pablito from the Execution List. Add Mert to the Execution List

Other changes are coming, pending a Vote Count from our lovely Mod.

Yeah, agreed; Mert's not shown many signs of being pro-town, and there's no reason for either MBL or Pablito to be in the list.

I don't think there's any reason for me to be on the list either, but whateva.

[Yosarian2]

LuckayLuck: I expect he’s not scum from the sheer number of players he’s marked off as townie to highly townie, I would expect a scum player to mark off fewer townies in order to keep more viable lynch candidates around. I also don’t believe he’s working to get people to not suspect him by saying he thinks they are townie because he’s simply cast too many of those connections.

Agreed. His posts so far look very pro-town to me.

Mastermind of Sin
He starts off by saying he’s never going to vote till he’s King, certainly something I’d expect from MoS, it doesn’t really change whether he’s more or less likely to be scum because this guy honestly doesn’t care about what role he is when he does things, if he wants to do it, he’ll do it regardless of which side he’s on.

He honestly doesn’t say very much this game, he doesn’t push very hard for the people he thinks are guilty or defend adamantly the people he thinks are innocent. Basically he won’t be saying much, this is type of behaviour is more in line with general MoS behaviour, he will pursue it regardless of alignment. I’m more willing to put him in my townie column because I’ve just seen so many games where MoS psuedolurks through and will defend his lurkish strategy.

I still don't like his "I won't vote" stance, and he hasn't done as much as I would like this game, but he has committed to strong non-logical stances on several people, just flatly declaring that cardboardbox, PJ, and Phoebus were town for no apparent reason. This actually is pretty typical behavior from a pro-town MOS, he often "goes on gut", is absolulty convinced he's right, gives no arguments to back himself up, and then is frustrated no one listens to him. I'll take another look at him later if some of the people he's defended turn out to be scum, but for now, I'm slightly leaning towards him being pro-town. Want to hear more from him though, and it'd be nice if he'd answer my questions (such as "who would be on your LOE right now if you were king?").

Mert
The guy doesn’t really say much of substance, I can say the same thing for plenty of players so far. The easiest way for scum to hide is to stay within the current, when they see most players lurk, they will follow along and do the same.

Agreed.

In general, I like Pooky's analysis posts so far, his logic is quite similar to what I've been thinking, and he's moved up to about neutral in my eyes (he was around "slighly scummy" before, back during the pre-crash bird wagon).

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, I'm still looking at Pooks and Yos as my top two executees.


They'd better start convincing me otherwise.

Hey, if you've got an actual case to make against me that I haven't already responded to, I'd love to hear it. If not, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do to "convince you otherwise", other then keep scumhunting and trying to get more information for the town like I have been.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian

... In 872 he links to games in which he's scum, saying he had forgotten to do so until then. Something about this action seems too desperate, almost begging someone to absolve him and say "oh, you're right, you're playing differently this time."

...did you miss the part where Glork and someone else (I forget who offhand) has specificially asked for that? The King wanted to see some games where I was scum, so I went back and found some. Are you seriously going to try to say that I'm scummy for answering a question the king asked me?

In 877 he wants people to answer his questions. Yeah this could be what it looks like (scumhunting), but it could be something worse (diversionhunting).

It was not so much hunting for scum today; it's an attempt to actually get some information out of todays lynch, so we might hopefully have something solid to go by in the future.

[Yosarian2]

Gut? I'm tempted to call "Glorkdar" on this one, but I'm not

that

sure that you're scum. If I were at the point where I'd be guaranteeing that my angry little Glorkdar had settled on you, you'd have been executed weeks ago.

I'm going on gut here myself, as I don't actaully know the alignment of anyone but myself, but at this point almost all of your "gut" moves have seemed to me to be in the wrong direction. You've went after basically all the high-profile players except PJ today, and without any decent reasons for any of them. I don't know if you've just psyched yourself out here somehow and are unwilling to admit you were wrong, or if you're scum who's just trying to fake Glork-dar, but either way your play today has not been what I'm used to seeing from you.

[Yosarian2]

Vote: Yosarian2

Scum.

Nope. Try again.

Anyway,

vote:phoebus

,

vote:samus

[Yosarian2]

Seeing as Twomz + Pooky both did the same thing draws a fair connection to me. The other connection is coming from the Pooky/Twomz conversation found starting with Post 67 continuing down to Post 72.

And there's also the fact that they both sheepishly followed onto the birdwagon with craplogic together, the reason I was origionally suspicious of both of them.

[Yosarian2]

Dear King Dead Rikimaru,

You should execute Yosarian2 today.

XOXO,
Glork

Hey, just because you executed your scum buddy yesterday, dosn't mean people should listen to you today.

[Yosarian2]

Hey, just because you executed your scum buddy yesterday, dosn't mean people should listen to you today.

OMGUS, coming from Yosarian?



Tsk. I expected better from you.

OMGUS? Heh. You were the one who said you were going to throw your scumbuddy under the bus by executing Pooky.

Apparently Pooky has forgotten the fct that nearly a month ago, I had already made an execution list and I even stated that I knew who I was going to execute. Now, depending on your point of view (read: MBL, PJ, Yos, possibly others... I forget), that effectively ended the day right there and then. In fact, I had actually written up execution posts twice, only to refrain from posting them because I figured people would get mad at me for "rushing things." Oddly enough, he says he would expect me to throw a noncontributive scumbuddy under the bus. And if I had executed him as scum a couple of weeks ago, that would've basically been what I did.

Now, I don't know if that was a freudian slip or just wierd wording that came out sounding like something other then what you offended, but if you were scum made king on day 2 in a vanillia game, I would expect you to execute a noncontributing scum partner to "clear" yourself. So no; I had a wierd feeling about the way you were acting yesterday, and while your excuting scum made me reconsider that somewhat, I do still think it is quite possible you did exactally what you said, and threw your noncontributing scumbuddy under the bus.

[Yosarian2]

Alright, I can accept those answers for now.

Unvote PJ

The reason I want to look at people on Twomz' wagon (such as Nightson and Yos2) is because I believe, at this time, that Twomz/Samus is pro-town. Nevertheless, I would like Samus to respond to PJ's inquiries in some way, and I would also like to hear something fairly substantial from Samus today. She's not one of the "I definitely think that this person is pro-town" players, but I don't currently think that she is scum.

...and what are you basing THAT on? Tamuz has done absolutly nothing pro-town all game. At all.

Yos is still on my list for... well, that whole "gut" thing. Not gonna lie, I think part of the reason I was onto Yos yesterday is because I was so certain that Pooky was scum, I already felt the Yos-Pooks connections. I still recall when Yos suggested lurker-lynching D1 and brought up Vaughn, and I pointed out why Pooky was a better choice. Yos didn't respond to that, and looking back on it, I wish I had pursued that at the time and forced a reply out of him one way or another. The OMGUS he just posted earlier this evening does not help his case. Sounds like someone's getting a little scared. I love how he's even insinuating that people shouldn't listen to what I have to say. I don't claim to be the end-all of scumhunters, and I don't necessarily want peopel to blindly follow me. Nevertheless, I find the way Yos chose to respond very interesting. I'd like him to elaborate a little more on what he meant in his most recent post.

(shrug) Pooky always lurks on day 1. Anyway, now you're attacking me for lurker hunting Vaughn on day 1 (who was lurker scum in Kingmaker I), and yesterday your mind-twin Zinderas was attacking me for not lurk

I also think that if the people wagoning Phoebus D1 were all leigt, they would have stuck with him on D2. I don't know how much decline/variation there was between the two days' Phoebus-voters, but I seem to recall it being substantially less on D2. That's something I want to go back and re-read more closely later on.

I've been sticking with Phoebus all game; he's given me absolutly no reason to change my mind that he's likely scum, so I have not.

You're making the same mistake Zinderas was; you're arguing in circles. You think I'm scum because I attacked Twomz, and you think Twomz is a good guy because you think the people on the bandwagon (read:me) are scum. You think I'm scum because I attacked Phoebus, and you don't think Phoebus is scum guy because you don't think the people attacking him (again, read:me) are "legit".

Again, I don't know if you're intentionally using craplogic here, or if you've already convinced yourself of something and are making assumptions and circuler arguments based on it. Either way, you're basing your arguments on thin air, and I have trouble believing that you don't see it.

[Yosarian2]

Pooky was noncontributive throughout much of the game, and I executed him as scum. Did it not occur to you that Pooky, knowing he was going down in flames, decided that in his last-ditch effort, he'd try to buddy-up to me (all the "I definitely think Glork is town" talk) while simultaneously undermining my accomplishment by suggesting that I'm a busing scumbuddy of his?

It's possible, certanly. I've seen Pooky do that before while scum. I'm also not going to rule out the possibility just because Pooky mentioned it, because Pooky plays WIFOM games like a mofo.

Notice I'm not voting for you, and that you're not one of my top suspects. I do have to give you some pro-town points for the way the execution went yesterday, but I've still got this wierd vibe about the way you've acted this game, and I wanted to make it clear that you are not cleared before everyone else just assumes it.

I'll respond to your other posts later, no time now.

[Yosarian2]

Not quite. Here's how my logic progresses in these types of situations:
I watch two (or more) players behave similarly. (Pooky/Twomz, for example)
I see one of them (Twomz) get accused of being scummy, get pressured, or pick up votes while the other one (Pooky) gets less actual heat.
I recognize the possibility of a double-standard. In this case, if you're attacking Vaughn for lurking and Twomz for wagoning, but largely ignoring Pooky, who has done both of those things, I wonder if you're protecting Pooky.

Oh, please.

I read back over day 1, and you're trying to make a mountain out of a molehill here. I was hardly trying to get Vaughn lynched for lurking while ignoring Pooky, the way you're implying. In fact, I only mentioned Vaughn once. This was the situation.

Thok said this:

Whatever.

unvote MOS, unvote Amelislay, confirm vote Vaughn

Vaughn has made two posts in this game since I proclaimed that I wanted him executed (for his attack on PJ and his response to my defense), one asking me to explain why I wanted him dead and one saying "I'll catch up to this game", which was three days ago at the beginning of a weekend. He has also posted in Leekspin and Committee in that interval.

I am not willing to put up with Vaughn lurking in this game.

The next 6 or so posts all at least mentioned Vaughn, so I figured I'd weigh in on the subject.

(shrug) With no night info at all and not even much of a voting record, every person who's not contributing is a major strike against the town. If the kings' not going to kill my primary suspect Phoebus, I wouldn't mind him killing any of the lurkers, including Vaughn. Semi-lurkers contribute absolutly nothing to the town this game, not even a vote.

And that was the only mention I made of Vaughn the entire day.

You make it sounds like I was making some huge, major effort to get Vaughn lynched while ignoring everyone else, when all I did was say "I wouldn't mind him killing off any of the lurkers, including Vaughn". That's hardly a case of me showing some favoratism for Pooky over Vaughn; I would have responded the same way to any serious suggestion of a lurker lynch at that point, with the deadline coming up.

Twomz/Pooky join the Birdwagon.
Twomz gets a lot of pressure; Pooky gets a bit, too.
Something tells me that the people pushing Twomz aren't legit, and that they are protecting Pooky.
I go after Pooky while simultaneously prodding at some of the people who wagoned Twomz (but not Pooky).
I find out Pooky is scum. My hypothesis (that someone was wagoning Twomz to protect Pooky) is strengthened.
Explain to me how this is circular again... because I'm really not seeing it.

Ok, that's fine, that makes some sense unlike the stuff you were talking about before. But I was the FIRST person to point out that what BOTH Pooky AND Twomz did on the bird wagon was scummy. That was me. I thought Twomz's two posts were more scummy and had much more craplogic in them, while Pooky's post was mearly a somewhat scummy "quietly following the heard" vote, so I voted for Twomz. But I was the first to point out the scumtell, and I did point out that it applied to both of them.

There's nothing inherently wrong with your logic, but it would make much more sense if applied to a person who followed the Twomz wagon, rather then the person who pointed out the scum tell and started it in the first place.

In any case, your whole argument is still based on a vauge gut feeling that something was not right with the twomz wagon. I still disagree, I still think Twomz was scum, and the fact that my instint about the bad bird wagon was right when it came to Pooky only strengthens my feeling that it was also right when it came to Twomz; they both joined the bird wagon at about the same time.

The reason I think your argument is circuler is that the only reason you've given for why you didn't like the Twomz wagon, even though you initially agreed with it, was that you thought "the people pushing Twomz aren't legit". So, why do you think the people pushing the Twomz weren't legit? Why you you think the Twomz wagon wasn't legit? Just because the Twomz wagon was getting more support then the Pooky wagon? Well, the obveous explination for that was that to most people, Twomz looked scummier then Pooky did at that moment in time. Note that there was not a wagon on Pooky when I started the wagon on Twomz, so your whole theory that I was "trying to protect Pooky" dosn't really make a lot of sense anyway.

[Yosarian2]

Bah, sorry about the triple-post. But dammit, I smell blood in the water.

I would also like to point out the fallacy of this statement:

I've been sticking with Phoebus all game; he's given me absolutly no reason to change my mind that he's likely scum, so I have not.

While it is true that you voted Phoebus on Day One, you made it very clear that you did

NOT

have strong suspicions of him, as indicated in two separate posts: 376 and 426

(shrug) He was the best suspect I had at that point.

On Day Two, you didn't even

mention

Phoebus' name until I asked you about Post 376. You didn't take any actions against Phoebus until 623 when you FoS'd Phoebus for "pushing bad bandwagons"... shortly after he voted for you. Not a vote -- interestingly enough, Phoebus didn't have a single vote on him at the time.

Well, for most of day 2 I was focused on the Twomz wagon, sure.

Yet today you insinuate that you thought he was "likely scum" way back on Day One, and that you've "stuck with him" the whole time? Lies. Lies and deceit. You were only mildly suspicous of Phoebus, and you voted him only because you thought that, of the 4 executees, he was the most likely to be scum. On Day Two, you didn't even bring him up until I questioned you and Phoebus voted you. How can you possibly claim that you thought he was

likely scum late during Day One and through Day Two

?

And now you're trying to read way to much into a simple line. My opinion of him has grown stronger over time, basically by his consistant and complete refusal to do any action that might help the town, and by the general anti-town vibe I get from his posts. If you want me to be precice, fine; day 1, I thought he was more likely to be scum then any other suspect at the time, and I didn't have a better suspect to suggest myself. Day 2, he was under my radar for a while after the events of the bird wagon, but nonetheless he never did anything to change my day 1 opinion of him. He was never higher then my #2 suspect, but he never did anything to move down the list either. And yesterday, he promised he'd do more today, but he has yet to deliever on that promise.

So, fine, my post was an oversimplification. I was somewhat suspicious of him day 1, and his posts and actions since then have been consistantly either scummy or at best unhelpfull for basically the rest of the entire game.

Nonetheless, your whole argument is that "why did people vote for him day 1 but not day 2?", which is rather silly. IMHO, it's very common for people to come back after a night with basically a clean slate, and go after an entierly different set of suspects, especally if the suspiciouns were not especally strong to begin with.

And on another note, I'm quite surprised by your explosive reation to my one liner about you executing your scum partner, when you actually slipped and called Pooky your scum buddy yesterday. I mean, I'm not putting too much weight into what could have been the innocent mistake you claim it was, but jesus, did you really expect me to not poke at you about that subject after that?

[Yosarian2]

Good point, Glork, I had forgotten MOS had defended Pooky yesterday. Add him to the suspect list.

vote:MOS

This isn't really intended as an argument, because of the extreme WIFOM implications, but it did just occur to me that if you are town, Glork, it's likely the scum were hoping to set me up by leaving you alive but killing MBL. If you're town you would be the most obveous target for the kill last night, but it was fairly obveous after yesterday that you were going to come after me hard today and that you'd have a lot of credibility, and then the scum kill the person who was defending me yesterday.

(shrug) Again, just a thought, but it does seem possible that the scum were hoping they could get us to bash heads all day and take the attention off of them, and perhaps use you to get me lynched. Scum often kill so as to manipulate the next day's conversation. Which might also explain why you weren't killed last night, which was something I had been wondering about.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, and there's just something nagging at me about Glork and Yos's recent posts and interactions, but I haven't figured out exactly what. It's something to do with the change in Yos's attitude towards Glork. Post 1159 in particular.

My attitude really hasn't changed much.

[Yosarian2]

This isn't really intended as an argument, because of the extreme WIFOM implications, but it did just occur to me that if you are town, Glork, it's likely the scum were hoping to set me up by leaving you alive but killing MBL. If you're town you would be the most obveous target for the kill last night, but it was fairly obveous after yesterday that you were going to come after me hard today and that you'd have a lot of credibility, and then the scum kill the person who was defending me yesterday.

(shrug) Again, just a thought, but it does seem possible that the scum were hoping they could get us to bash heads all day and take the attention off of them, and perhaps use you to get me lynched. Scum often kill so as to manipulate the next day's conversation. Which might also explain why you weren't killed last night, which was something I had been wondering about.

Yos could you please explain this post?
- you say glork is town. WIFOMishly, scum left G alive to set you up.
- you say that if glork is town, G would be the most obvious kill. Does that imply G is not town?
- are you saying Glork is town because scum is hoping you two will bash head.

I'm confused.

More on MoS later after I read his posts in isolation.

(shrug) It's always somewhat WIFOM to try to figure out why the scum killed who they killed, but nonetheless from my experence scum usually have a good reason for who they kill and it can be worth at least thinking about, especally in a game with no doc where the scum aren't trying to second guess possible doc protection. In this case, one thing I had been wondering (which was one of several reasons I was mildly suspicion of Glork, although certanly not a very strong reason) was why Glork hadn't been killed. If he is town, he would be the most obveous target; he's always a high profile target who often dies night 1 or night 2, he has been especally high profile in this game from the moment the game started because of his kingmaker 1 preformance and how other people were treating him based on that preformance, and after killing a scum he would probably be considered by most to being the closest thing to being cleared anyone in a vanillia game can be (my own doubts nonwithstanding). So why was he still alive?

If Glork is town, the most likely reason I can think of that someone would leave him alive was because at the end of the day, he was targeting me and Pooky. So it would have been quite predictable that if Glork was left alive, that he would be attacking me today, and so it occured to me that perhaps, if Glork is town, the scum would have left him alive specifically so that he would attack me today, perhaps get me lynched especally if MBL (who had defended me yesterday) was dead, and certanly the two of us would create a lot of noise and heat (me and Glork are both good at that, heh) which would help keep the focus off of the scum. Basically a win-win for the scum; if they leave Glork alive, then either I get lynched without the scum really having to stick their necks out durng the day to make it happen, or me and Glork spend most of the day arguing with each other which helps the scum fly under the radar.

Note that I'm not assuming that Glork is town. Another possibility has always been that he wasn't nightkilled because he's scum. It had just occured to me that there was another possibility for Glork still being alive, so I mentioned it.

Yos basically said this:
Since I executed scum, I'm more likely to have credibility in the eyes of the town. I obviously went after Yos hard yesterday (and I kept pressing today, until MoS presented himself as a better option), and the scums killed MBL (who was widely thought to be pro-town, by the end of the day, and had defended Yos). In spite of the possiblity of WIFOM, Yos asked if I was kept alive because of the fact that I would push Yos so hard today, because they were hoping that we would clash (which we have) and that it might lead to a lynch of one of us (which it might).

Yeah, that's a good summery.

In response to Yos, all I really have to say is that, if someone is picking up a lot of flak and in the center of attention (which you were), there is no way that they are going to die. As far as why

I

wasn't killed... I have two theories. One, at least one scumbag is aware of my "I'd bus my scumbuddies, especially in a Mountainous game" statement at the end of Lights Out. I'd hate to admit it, but I definitely think that it's a distinct possiblity that I'm being left alive so that people will wonder why I'm not dying. It certainly would not be the first time that has happened. The other theory I have is that, since I couldn't be made King today, I don't hold any

actual

power. Regardless of the executions I push, I am much less likely to actually be the one deciding today's execution. Tomorrow, I may be back in the saddle if I'm still alive. Obviously, we don't know that yet. Then there's also the fact that I've been an extremely vocal player, and I'm bound to be near or in the spotlight as long as I'm alive. A bit of a double-edged sword, if you ask me, but I understand why it is so.

Sure, it's possible you're being kept alive because the scum think that not killing you might get you lynched, but after you executed Pooky it's not very likely you'll be executed in the near future. Whereas I would expect you to have a lot of influince today, and to have a very high chance of being king tommorow. No, I really have a hunch that if you are town, the biggest reason scum left you alive is because they expected you to lead the town today and probably tommorow, and they thought they knew which direction you would lead it in.

[Yosarian2]

Okay, I feel like I need to comment on this discussion, because it starting to sound like Yos is presenting an either/or scenario: either Glork is scum, or scum left Glork alive to attack Yos today specifically. I don't really like it when people get themselves stuck into such narrow-minded thinking, so I gave it about a half an hours thought.

Hardly an either/or scenerio, pj. It occured to me that they might have left Glork alive for that reason, so I mentioned it as a possible theory, and then I clarified it when SV asked me to. It was never intended to be any kind of solid proof of anything, just a thought I thought I'd share. Perhaps it's just my paranoia that makes me feel like they're trying to set me up here to get lynched, but eh, this is mafia, sometimes they really are out to get you.

I've got to say, though, that most of your other suggestions seem to have a fairly low probability to me.

[Yosarian2]

Well, just going by good stratagy and such, I don't think either 3 or 4 in your "long term plans" suggestions make a whole lot of sense to me. Dosn't mean they're impossible, but neither one would be a very logical move on the scum's part.

In your short term plans list, I could see them executing MBL if for some reason they didn't want him to become king; say, he was onto something; and so #3 is also possible, although if they were trying to lay false trails killing Glork might still be a better bet.

Most of your others don't seem very likely to me. There's no reason for the scum to go hunting for the kingmaker or for the hero at this point; killing the kingmaker makes no difference, and the hero's probably as likely to hurt the town as to help it.

(shrug) But your point is made, there certanly are any number of possible reasons that they may have chosen to kill MBL.

[Yosarian2]

Hrm.

Please clarify for me if you agree with these statements:

1.) Suppose Glork does not die N2 (which happened). Would you believe this is because scum left him alive specifically to attack you?
2.) Suppose Glork dies on N2. Would you then believe this was done specifically so people would follow the "false trail" and hence suspect you?

It seems to me like whether or not Glork was killed, you were going to slip into the "I was framed" mentality.

Heh...not quite. I was thinking that if Glork was killed, there's a whole list of people he attacked day 2, including MBL, that scum could quote to create false trails, if that was their goal; more so then the "false trails" MBL left behind, I would think.

[Yosarian2]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]
About Yos: I could get into the fact that he thinks the assassins try to "frame" him (a bit), but his last couple of posts convinces me more and more that he might be scum (as for throwing with WIFOM as a defensive stance). I got to read back more about what he did during day 1 and 2 again, just to verify if my "gut" feeling leads me to the right way.[/quote]

For the love of God...

I had a thought, so I shared it. Several people have demanded more and more details about it, so I went along. But it's not really a major deal, it was never supposed to be any kind of "defense" or anything like that, and the only reason I keep talking about it is because people aren't giving me a choice here. So can please forget about this stupid thing and go back to lynching scum here?

[Yosarian2]

Samus (Twomz's replacement), Phoebus, and MOS.

[Yosarian2]

Sure, I'll give reasons.

Phobus and Twomz were both scummy looking lurkers.

Phoebus has done very little all game, even when he was around he mostly just followed bad bandwagons and made excuses for not doing anything. Yesterday, he stalled, saying

Do not patronise me, Glork.

The continued interruptions with the site do nothing to help my train of thought about this game.

You are allowed to call it laziness but as far as I'm concerned, I skim the posts to see if anything is addressed to me and I shall respond to it until further notice.
Zindaras said that "He asked you a question" which led me to believe that yos had directed one specifically at me and I don't usually miss those.
Seeing as this was not the case and seeing as thanks to your pointing them out, I now know the questions, my stand on it was summarised pertinently by my first post since the latest interruption.

Kill anyone. I don't care.

I am almost tempted to volunteer to put myself out of my misery but given that the fag end of this day has spanned two interruptions, I'd decided that I would contribute something on the next game day. If that is acceptable, that would be great because I'm not someone who opts out of a game for trivial reasons.
Currently, however, I just can't be arsed.
Tomorrow - after more results. Sure.

If you or any other players have a problem with this, or if the mod is concerned with this sort of attitude for the remainder of today, please do what you seem fit.

Zindaras: Rot op!

Translation: I'm going to refuse to post anything useful today, even though I'm here and posting, but I'll do something tommorow, I promise!

Stalling, refusing to commit to anything, and no attempt to help the town in any way.

And then, despite his "promise" to contribute something today, he has not yet posted.


Twomz placed a scummy vote on the bird wagon (during the era of lost posts), along with Pooky. I thought they were both suspicious at that point, and he may have been working with Pooky to push an easy lynch, that I'm now fairly sure was a bad bandwagon. He's done basically nothing even remotly pro-town all game. His replacement, Samus, posted one time, on december 16'th. I suppose we could try to replace her too, but I really think she's likely to be scum.

Basically, both of those two players have given me reasons to suspect them, and they've given me absolutly no reason to think they're pro-town. In any case, we can't allow people to just flatly refuse to contribute in a vanillia game.

MOS: defended Pooky yesterday without ever giving a good reason, trying to delay his execution "for a few days", which automatically puts him on the suspicious list. Not only was he defending Pooky, he was also pushing for me to be executed without giving any reason, which could also have been an attempt to get someone other then Pooky lynched. Interestingly, he was also defending Phoebus is basically the same logic-less way he was defending Pooky.

[Yosarian2]

Are you accusing me and Glork of being scum together, SV? What are you basing that on?

[Yosarian2]

To be clear, I'm not pushing for Phoebus and Twomz/Samus to be lynched just because they're lurkers, I'm pushing for them to be lynched because I think they're both quite scummy looking. Not posting at all isn't necessarally scummy, although it certanly dosn't help their cases, but posting without posting any kind of useful content is scummy,which they were both doing while they were here.

[Yosarian2]

Fritz has been especally random and useless this game.

[Yosarian2]

I'm getting happier about the idea of lynch MOS, the more he delays answering any question in any useful way.

My three main suspects are the same, but MOS just moved to the top of the list.

confirm vote:MOS

[Yosarian2]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]FYI: I'm not very happy that alot of people are really pusing for a MoS lynch with the information Glork provided. I

do

think his behaviour lately was very pro town and, as I said, don't sense that much scumness in the points Glork provided. [/quote]

The way he was defending Pooky yesterday dosn't bother you at all?

[Yosarian2]

So, we're bascially just waiting to hear the top 3 suspects from everyone else, and especally to hear what MOS has to say, right?

Who hasn't given their 3 names yet?

And also, if/when MOS does give an analysis of some type, I want to hear a specific answer to this question:

And are you still confident Phoebus is protown?

[Yosarian2]

The thing about killing the kingmaker, though, is that the new kingmaker might be a townie we already thought was suspicious, in which case they become unlynchable; it dosn't really matter all that much yet, but if we get down to a more end-game-ish situation with, say, about 9 people left, the scum could really mess themselves up by killing the kingmaker if a scummy looking townie becomes the new kingmaker, preventing what otherwise would have been a mislynch. In fact, I suggested that it might be bad if we reveal who the kingmaker is just becuase then the scum could AVOID killing that person.

[Yosarian2]

I figured an intelligent protown player would realize this and go along.

Heh...so, you thought the pro-town players would all understand what you were trying to say, but that the scum would be dumb enough to just go along with it and follow your advice about who they should kill?

[Yosarian2]

The King executing CTD would slightly alleviate the problem. Just sayin'

Or Phoebus.

[Yosarian2]

Advocating the King executing an inactive because they're inactive sounds more pro-scum than anything (especially since you know the person being replaced is hardly going to show up to defend themselves!).

Rikimaru, I have found my additional people to vote for your consideration. Bear in mind that SV is still my #1 suspect.

vote Yosarian2. vote Cogito Ergo Sum

.

You know, not paying attention is scummy.

If you'd payed any attention at all to anything that's happened this game, if you've read any of my posts from, like, ever, you'd know that I want the king to execute Phoebus because I think Phoebus is scum. Duh.

[Yosarian2]

But that's not the reasoning you were using there to get him executed.

If you'd been paying any attention to this game, you would have known that the fact that he was going to have to be replaced was the least of the reasons I wanted him executed.

[Yosarian2]

But that's not the reasoning you were using there to get him executed.

If you'd been paying any attention to this game, you would have known that the fact that he was going to have to be replaced was the least of the reasons I wanted him executed.

I hear the sound of backpedalling. Whatever the validity or otherwise of your other arguments, you posted there to try to get Rikimaru to execute Phoebus on the basis that Phoebus needs to be replaced anyway, and now you're running a mile from standing behind that.

No, I was just observing that it would save the mod some trouble if we went ahead and killed phoebus, which is not at all the same thing as saying "let's kill Phoebus for lurking". The fact that you're trying to pretend that was supposed to be some kind of serious and independent argument for lynching phoebus is really making me wonder about you.

Now, of course I don't have any NEW arguments to bring up against Phoebus, because he hasn't posted, but that certanly dosn't make him any LESS scummy. I still think he's quite likely to be scum. I have no idea why he wasn't executed days ago, but he still needs to die, and I don't really care if that happens before or after he's replaced. I assumed everyone would understand that that post was a humerous way of me not allowing my constant and ongoing suspicion of him to be forgotten, especally as some people (cough Glork cough) seem to assume that if you don't mention someone for a little while you're no longer suspicious of them.

The fact that you're now trying to make a huge deal out of this is making me suspicious of you, as it's often scum who I see trying to make a mountain out of a molehill, and espeaclly as you are apparently trying to make a federal case out of a couple of humerous posts in order to defend Phoebus and/or CTD.

[Yosarian2]

I think the implication was clear, but the posts are there and it's up to everyone else to decide whether they agree with you that you were just observing and being humerous or whether they agree with me that you were trying to use the replacement situation to add to the pressure on the King to execute Phoebus.

Well, yeah, along with being funny, I was trying to increase the pressure to lynch Phoebus/increase the attention on Phoebus/ect, because I think Phoebus is scum. Which I've thought since day 1.

Perhaps you do this all the time and expect it to be taken for a joke, but it didn't look like a joke to me. It looks like you're trying to pass it off as a joke after the fact.

So...you really expect us to believe that you thought "hay, if we lynch Phoebus, that's one less lurker the mod's gotta replace!" was supposed to be a serious, rational argument on my part that Phoebus should be lynched?

[Yosarian2]

I've been suspicious of Phoebus since day 1. On day 1, he voted for every single bandwagon while giving absolutly no reason while not doing anything else to help the town. Early on day 2, he continued to be unhelpful while piling onto bad bandwagons for bad reasons (the bird wagon, which I tend to think was probably a scum driven wagon, and the bandwagon against me). Later in the day, he was around and posting, but basically all of his posts were attempts to make excuses for his lurking, promises to post later, and useless comments like "kill anyone, I don't care". He made 20 posts over the entire course of the game, and not one of them looks even vaugly pro-town, not one of them looks to me like an honest attempt to help the town find scum. And the fact that one of my other top suspects, MOS, defended him for much of the game just makes me more convinced that Phoebus should die.

[Yosarian2]

olio: That one.

CES- no, I don't intend to trust you on that (and I'm interested to know why Glork is suddenly on Yos' side, because I trust Glork so far and I don't know why he changed his mind). If Yosarian was joking, why did he initially defend the remark as just being a minor part of his case? He only now changed to say it was a joke. It's the inconsistency that convinces me he's lying scum.

My standard town tactics are to start something and see the reactions. I started something on you and Yos. Yos' reactions have been of someone with something to hide, as far as I'm concerned. Perhaps he can fool people who expect him to joke around or something, but objectively- from an outsider's point of view- he's being inconsistent and has something to hide.

CES, do you deny there's an inconsistency between the way Yos initially defended his post and the way he's now defending it? Commit to a position on this

Dude, everyone else understands it.

If I think someone's scum, and the rest of the town continues to ignore that person, I will keep bringing that person up as a lynch target whenever possible. Which I did in a somewhat silly manner. The comment was really intended to be a serious argument against him, I never presented it as such, and no one else took it as such. And no, there's no inconsistincy between my first response to your post, which was me pointing out that if you really thought that was the reason why I was attacking Phoebus you weren't paying any attention to the game (which you later actually admitted by asking where the attack on Phoebus was, when I've spent quite a few posts attacking him) and my later response which went into more details about the intent of my post.

By the way, you've been in this game for 3 weeks now. The fact that you apparnetly still haven't actually read the game worries me.

[Yosarian2]

Heh...the sentance should say "the comment was really NEVER intended to be a serious attack against him". Which again should be obveous, but whatever.

[Yosarian2]

I never said I didn't know you'd attacked Phoebus. Playing the man not the ball, by belittling my knowledge of the game and implying I'm dumb because "everyone else got it", appears to be your thing.

I wasn't trying to imply that you're dumb. I'm saying that you're either misreading my posts or misrepresenting my posts, by calling me a "liar" and saying I "contradicted myself". Perhaps you should consider which one.

I didn't think it was too much to ask for you to summarise your arguments against the guy for the benefit of the legion of recent replacements, but apparently you'd rather keep people in the dark and not commit to a particular set of reasons or something like that.

Um, I just DID summerise my arguments against phoebus. Last page, right after you asked me.

[Yosarian2]

In case you somehow missed that too:

I've been suspicious of Phoebus since day 1. On day 1, he voted for every single bandwagon while giving absolutly no reason while not doing anything else to help the town. Early on day 2, he continued to be unhelpful while piling onto bad bandwagons for bad reasons (the bird wagon, which I tend to think was probably a scum driven wagon, and the bandwagon against me). Later in the day, he was around and posting, but basically all of his posts were attempts to make excuses for his lurking, promises to post later, and useless comments like "kill anyone, I don't care". He made 20 posts over the entire course of the game, and not one of them looks even vaugly pro-town, not one of them looks to me like an honest attempt to help the town find scum. And the fact that one of my other top suspects, MOS, defended him for much of the game just makes me more convinced that Phoebus should die.

[Yosarian2]

1) Passed the comment off as just being a minor part of his case on Phoebus, then

2) Said he was actually joking.

Now you're putting words in my mouth, AGAIN. I never "passed it off as being a minor part of my case on Phoebus", I said

If you'd payed any attention at all to anything that's happened this game, if you've read any of my posts from, like, ever, you'd know that I want the king to execute Phoebus because I think Phoebus is scum. Duh.

and

But that's not the reasoning you were using there to get him executed.

If you'd been paying any attention to this game, you would have known that the fact that he was going to have to be replaced was the least of the reasons I wanted him executed.

Now, how did you go from those posts to suddenly thinking that my origional comment was ever supposed to be a serious part of my argument that Phoebus should be lynched? When did I ever say that it was supposed to be a "minor part of my case against Phoebus"?

Nor did I ever say "Oh, I was just joking, I didn't mean it". The comment was supposed to be funny, but that dosn't mean it was a joke post that wasn't supposed to mean anything. It was supposed to mean that Phoebus should be lynched.

Now, can you cut it with the misrepresentations, please, and actaully read what I wrote instead of what you'd like to think I might have meant?

Bah. I should know better then to even try to respond to this kind of BS attack; now it looks like Ollo is going to use your misrepresentations of my posts as an excuse to vote for me.

Yosarian, I don't view that "Or Phoebus" of yours a joke, so please stop talking on behalf of me with your "everyone else understands it". Added to that your slip with "NEVER", I'm happy to
vote: Yosarian2

If you want to attack me, how about you actually responding to what I said rather then what RafK's trying to claim that I said? I said it was a humerous/silly way of reiterating that I was suspicious of Phoebus; I never siad it was "just a joke". Something can be intended to be funny and to not entirely serious while still being not entirely joking in a mafia game.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian2, I was merely pointing out your exaggerations with "everyone else understands it". Nice to know you had good intentions with that line - unfortunately I couldn't read your mind and see those intentions when I was reading it.

My point was just that RafK was not understanding what I was saying, and other people were.

Also, RafK did never misrepresent your mistake with "NEVER" - you slipped there yourself. Stop exaggerating.

Did I say that he did? And what are you suggesting that editing mistake I made is supposed to mean, exactally?

[Yosarian2]

My point is that "everyone else" is exaggeration, "other people" isn't.

(shrug) I ALWAYS exaggerate. (there, you see? ) In any case, everyone who had responded at that point did seem to read the post as it was intended rather then the way RafK was reading it.

now it looks like Ollo is going to use your misrepresentations of my posts as an excuse to vote for me.

Your line you called joke everyone else but RafK understood was one reason, the

other

reason was that you slipped and forgot that NEVER. You made it sound that RafK's posts, and those posts only gave me "an excuse" to vote you.

Well, RafK misrepresented my posts, and you did use that misrepresentation ("Yos said it was just a joke!" which I, in fact, did not say) as an excuse to vote for me. I never said that was your only excuse for voting for me; in fact you also had a second, crappy, excuse for voting for me.

In my opinion your editing mistake was a slip you subconsiously typed. I look at that line and at that slip, and it made me wonder enough to vote you.

And again, if you are really being serious in trying to argue here that was supposed to be a fruedian slip on my part, what is it my subconsious was supposed to have said by deleating the never while I was editing the post? That the origional post WAS supposed to be a serious attack on Phoebus? Please.

Anyway, on another note, we're all still waiting for the king to do something...the game is just going to keep devolving into trivialities and lurking without that.

[Yosarian2]

I'm bit confused: are you saying that line wasn't just a joke?

Like I said before:

If I think someone's scum, and the rest of the town continues to ignore that person, I will keep bringing that person up as a lynch target whenever possible. Which I did in a somewhat silly manner.

So if by "just a joke" you mean "was supposed to be completly meaningless and unrelated to the game of mafia we're playing", then no, it was not "just a joke". And I never said it was. Like I just said, something can be funny without being meaningless.

[Yosarian2]

Y'all need to learn the difference between a defeatist attitude and someone who expects to die but still makes an effort to contribute anyways.

...which one are you supposed to be?

[Yosarian2]

Well really, I can't imagine many reasons why the kingmaker chose Dead Rikimaru...

But I'm sure if the kingmaker wanted a specific result, I'm sure I know why.

Note: if we don't want to give away the identity of the kingmaker, people shouldn't say things like this.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah; we really need to at least get that list of execution before this game dies completly.

[Yosarian2]

Mod: Can we have a coup or something? Because if something dosn't happen soon, this game is going to die.

[Yosarian2]

restart = bad

Truth.

I'm a bit iffy about the whole kingmaker concept at this point, considering how this game has gone, and I wouldn't be interested in starting a whole new kingmaker game. If we can someone save this one, though, I'd like to keep playing.

[Yosarian2]

Smashy, I'd suggest that you put up a "list of execution" and try to get comments before you execute. At least that way we'll have something to go on tommorow.

[Yosarian2]

The main thing that happened during the crash was that a huge wagon started up against Bird because of MBL's theory that he posted a lot at the start of the day because his scumbuddys "nutkicked" him into participating more during the night. It was a fairly weak theory, and MBL didn't even seem to think it was worth accomplaning with a vote when he made it. Nonetheless, several people jumped on the rapidly growing bandwagon and voted for him in a very short period of time, most notable Pooky, Phoebus, and Twomz, all basically with no logic behing their votes, pretty much just bandwagoning blindly in a way I thought looked quite suspicious.

That's about all I remember.

[Yosarian2]

LL: The interesting question, though, is why did you decide you would rather have me lynched rather then pooky?

You had given some logical arguments about why you thought I was town; your arguments for why you thought Pooky was town was basically "he came back and made one post I liked". Care to clarify why, exactally, you thought I was a better lynch then Pooky, if those were your two possible choices?

[Yosarian2]

If you can read this thread in a sec, I'll be quite impressed.

[Yosarian2]

If that's the choice, then yeah, I think LL would be a better choice then SV. SV really hasn't looked especally scummy to me, while LL's "lynch Yos over pooky" choice does seem like a possible scum tell, and the general "follow certain people" attitude seems a bit scummy as well.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, I'd be in favor of a DragonofSummer execution.

[Yosarian2]

Note: you've only got about a day left before deadline, smashy. Better kill someone.

[Yosarian2]

Well, that's kind of a surprise.

Anyway, the game has been going really slowly lately, perhaps because people have felt that they're not being listened to, so I'm going to institute the following policy as King: Anyone with 7 votes with be automatically put on my LOE.

[Yosarian2]

Hey all.

In order to encourage participation, people attacking each other, and to encourage people to put their votes where they actually want them rather then no one caring about votes, I'm going to institute the following policy; anyone with 7 or more votes will be automatically added to my list of execution. Other people might be added by me, of course.

[Yosarian2]

Smashy needs to be executed, see my previous reasoning.

Why don't you repeat it for me, MOS.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, our ruler is trying the standard mafia look-how-reasonable-I-am tactic, in this case by letting the populace decided some spots on the LOE. I suggest hoisting him by his own petard.

vote Yosarian2, spectrumvoid and CES

\

Heh...are you trying to suggest that being reasonable is supposed to be a scum tell?

But yeah, it applies to everyone, and if I get 7 votes on me sure I'll put myself on the LOE. hint, though: I won't execute myself, so it probably won't accomplish much.

It's be more useful to hear you explain why you're suspicious of SV and CES.

[Yosarian2]

B) yos, be a good king and kill a bitch

(shrug) You want me to kill someone, then get to work convincing me that someone is scum. I'm not going to just haul off and kill someone, we need discussion and such. You voting for everyone dosn't exactally help either. Who do you think is scum, Fritzer? If you were king, who would you kill, and why? (Ok, probably "have already killed" would be more accurate, but either way.)

[Yosarian2]

Ok, let's see if we can get this a bit orginized, perhaps get a little more activity going here.

Let me make a short list of the people that have been considered overly suspicious over the last few days; I'd like everyone to pick one or two of these people, go back, look at their posts, and give me their opinion on them. I don't want to see vauge "let's lynch X" posts, I want details

People who have been considered scummy and have been attacked a lot today and yesterday:

SpectrumVoid
Mastermind of Sin
Smashy( Dead Rikimaru)
DragonsofSummer (replacing Phoebus)
CES
RAFK(replacing mert)

Did I miss anyone?

Anyway, over the next week or so, I'd like to see everyone in the town pick one or two of the people on this list and do an analysis of them. I'll probably make a list of execution with 4 or so people on it in a week or so.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, no one's jumped at the offer to look at so-called suspicious people. I suggest you give some assignments. People seem to do best here when they are given specific questions. As for me, maybe this weekend after my papers/exams are done.

unvote: DragonsOfSummer, vote: VitaminR

Well, perhaps, but I didn't really like how that went when Glork was king; most people did their "assignments" and then stopped posting, but no one really discussed anything or commented on anyone's "assignments". It wasn't a bad idea, perhaps, but I don't think it worked out too well.

Let me try this instead.

list of execution

MOS
Vitiman R (replaced dragon of summer, replaced phoebus)
Spectrum Void
Smashy
[/b]


EVERYONE'S assignment is to comment on EVERY person on the list of execustion, with at the very least a "yes, I'd lynch him" or "no, I wouldn't", and with specific reasons for at least one or two of the people. Anyone who ignores this asignment or lurks may be mod-prodded or added to the list of execution themselves.

[Yosarian2]

Sorry, didn't bold that whole thing.

ADD TO THE LIST OF EXECUTION:
MOS
Vitiman R
SV
Smashy

[Yosarian2]

For easy refrence later, I'll try to do a running semi-vote-count-like-thing to keep track of what everyone thinks; might produce some useful information.
People who have commented:

Mnowax:
MOS:Yes
Vitiman R:No
SV:No
Smashy:yes.

People who have not responded yet:

Everyone else.

(BTW, you don't have to just comment on those 4 people; I'm still following the rule that anyone who gets 7 votes will be added to the LOE automatically, and I see that both mnowax and Zinderas are fairly close to that. Still, I need everyone to comment on AT LEAST those 4 people.)

[Yosarian2]

Something about this question seems off. I've spent a lot of time pondering but not really following this game, trying to outthink myself in terms of what a scumking might look like (a possibility that we are almost certain to see at some point, if we haven't already) and how he might behave. Well, this is pretty much exactly what I came up with. Narrow the list to four or five AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, include a scumbuddy or two just for the hell of it (in case you're exposed later on), ask everyone's opinion in a very narrow sense, then lynch the townie with the most "votes".

This game has basically been defined by near-universal lurkage for as long as it's been going, Lowell, probably because of the whole kingmaker concept, which basically means that people who aren't the king basically don't feel like what they have to say matters. I'm trying to get some minimal level of participation from everyone that we can look back later and analyze, and to encourage conversation by making sure everyone knows that, at least as long as I am king, what they say and who they vote for DOES matter.

And again, if you've got a case for someone who's not on the list, make it. I might add them to the list, or if you can get 6 other people to follow you they'll be added automatically. I'm not trying to LIMIT discussion, I'm trying to make sure there's at least a minimum level of discussion from everyone, and I think that over the course of the game there has been a lot of interesting discussion and different opinions about these people specifically.

And by the way, I don't want JUST yes or no answers. I want AT THE VERY LEAST yes or no answers, backed up with reaasons as much as possible.

[Yosarian2]

Running semi-vote-count-like-thing:

People who have commented:

Mnowax:
MOS:Yes
Vitiman R:No
SV:No
Smashy:yes.

PJ:
MoS: Leaning no
VitaminR: Leaning slight yes
SV: Yes
Smashy: Neutral


The Admeral:
MoS: no
VitaminR: i don't know/Yes
SV: maybe, leaning towards no
Smashy: obv yes

Fritzer:
Stubborn


Zindaras:
MoS: No.
VitaminR: Yes
Voidybuns: Yes. Definitely.
Smashy: Fifty-fifty.
Mnowax: Good execution.
Zindaras: Likes kittens. Is therefore town.


KaleiÐoscøpe:
MOS: Hammer possibility
Vitiman R: Don't hammer
SV: Hammer possibility
Smashy: Hammer him

Lowell
MoS:No
Vitamin:No
SV:Yes
Smashy:Yes

SV:
MOS:Yes
Smashy:Yes
Vitiman R:No


People who have not responded yet:

Cogito Ergo Sum (rep. Samus / Twomz)
Der Hammer (rep. Vaughn)
Fritzler
pablito
RafK (rep. Mert)
Shanba (rep. Nightfall / UberTimmy)
Smashy (rep. Dead Rikimaru)
Toaster Strudel (rep. Nightson / Vikingfan)
VitaminR (rep. DragonsofSummer/Phoebus)

[Yosarian2]

Alright, there's been enough people expression suspicion about Mnowax that I think I will

add:mnowax to the list of execution

I'm also getting a good vibe from MOS lately, and a lot of other people seem to agree, so I'm probably not going to execute him today unless someone can make a better case against him then I've seen lately.

[Yosarian2]

Hey Yos: we've all given our thoughts and suspicions now, it's your turn. Why are these players in particular on the execution list? It would be useful to have in black and white your thoughts on each of the players for later reference when we know some more alignments

Alright.

I should start out by saying that some of the people were on my execution list specifically because there had been a lot of interesting discussion about them and I wanted to get everyone's thoughts about them, not so much because I thought they were especally likely to be scum. Those 4 kind of stuck me as the "Bellweather" players; everyone seemed to have strong opinions on all 4 of them, and everyone seemed to have different opinions on all 4 of them, so I thought that getting everyone to comment on those 4 players specifically would be most helpful for future reference.

MOS: I've gone back and fourth on him over the course of the game. At the moment, I've been getting a good vibe from his recent plays, such as his attacks on mnowax, and he's been participating a lot; not really seeing him as especally likely to be scum at the moment. This could change if Vitiman R turns out to be scum, as MOS's early defense of Phoebus still seems a bit wierd to me.

SV: I mostly just put her on the list because the bandwagon agaisnt her has been interesting and I wanted some more thoughts on her; I don't really find her to be scummy at the moment.

VitimanR: As you can see from some of my other posts, Phoebus was my main supect for a big part of the game. Not just because of lurking; the posts Phoebus did make seem quite scummy; he was just following the crowd with his votes, generally refusing to say anything useful or give any specific reasons for the few votes he did make, lurking, promising to post more and then not following through, and making excuses for lurking. DOS didn't really say much of anything, and nothng VitimanR has done yet has changed my mind yet about that role.

Smashy: Dead R seemed quite suspicious. It seems really strange to me that someone would take so much time to summerise the whole game and then not post any of his own thoughts at all about anything at all. Seems like he was unwilling to commit to anything at all, and not because of lack of time as he probably spent at least an hour writing up that summery. Scummy.

CTD/mnowax: had kind of flown under my radar, as mnowax always does look kind of scummy, but MOS has some good points about him. I don't the timing or the logic of his attack on MOS, and I don't like his general behavior today. Even more so, CTD dosn't look good either; he didn't say all that much himself, and what he did say looks quite suspicious. One of the few posts where CTD did commit to anything was this post:

I want neither Pooky nor Yos to be executed. Pooks posting a huge analysis resonates with my townie cord, because I've seen him make an effort when threatened to be lynched as town before. The analysis itself is more or less what I'd expect from a townie. I didn't register any malicious twisting of facts or other related shenanigans, and while I don't agree with all of it, that doesn't make me want to see him dead.

As for Yos, I just don't see a good enough case against him to warrant an execution.

I would fully support executing the following people at this point:
- StallingChamp. Although Zindaras disagrees, his contradiction

was

scummy to me, and he has proven himself to be utterly useless ever since. His predecessor ChannelDelibird wasn't as bad, but looking over his posts, I'm not too fond of him either.
- Twomz. Reasons stated before. Prominent member of the bird wagon, piggybacked onto Fritzler, used Burden of Proof, dropped off the face of the earth. The fact that his replacement is taking forever to drop by isn't exactly reassuring either.

If you want me to comment on anything else before the deadline hits, make it snappy.

Which, in retrospect, looks like a defense of Pooky, with a quick "Yos dosn't really look scummy either" comment thrown in to semi-disguise the defense of pooky.

So, yeah. At the moment, I'm leaning towards killing either VitimanR, Smashy, or mnowax.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, I don't think you should be ignoring SV, especially considering the amount of players who approve of her possible execution.

Why are you suspicious of SV, VitaminR? You said "yes" we should execute her, but you never gave a reason or even mentioned her at any other other point.

[Yosarian2]

vote: Smashy

and I'll vote Yos too if he takes too long making up his mind!

I don't see why you're in such a hurry; we've been getting better and more useful discussion so far today then we have for most of the game, and I'd like to see where some of it leads. For example, I'm interested to hear a response from SV to the points VitimanR made about here.

One other thing that has been strangly missing today is defenses; basically none of the people on my LOE have even tried to make an argument why they shouldn't be lynched or tried to respond to the points raised against them, which seems a bit odd to me.

[Yosarian2]

I guess that there is no need to be defensive in this situation. you can kill me, you can not kill me. there is nothing that i can say that would change your mind one way or another. I am Town. That is the only defense that I need.

(raised eyebrow)

I'm sure there are things you could say that could change my mind one way or the other. "I am town" is not one of them. Responding to the points made against you, or giving more details about what you think about other people, might.

[Yosarian2]

I would REALLY like to see SOME kind of response from mnowax on the case against him, soon.

And it's also quite frustrating that Smashy is getting replaced right when he's one of my top suspects.

[Yosarian2]

There is no case against me.

If that was true, you wouldn't be on my LOE right now.

The case I had against you was this:

CTD/mnowax: had kind of flown under my radar, as mnowax always does look kind of scummy, but MOS has some good points about him. I don't the timing or the logic of his attack on MOS, and I don't like his general behavior today. Even more so, CTD dosn't look good either; he didn't say all that much himself, and what he did say looks quite suspicious. One of the few posts where CTD did commit to anything was this post:

I want neither Pooky nor Yos to be executed. Pooks posting a huge analysis resonates with my townie cord, because I've seen him make an effort when threatened to be lynched as town before. The analysis itself is more or less what I'd expect from a townie. I didn't register any malicious twisting of facts or other related shenanigans, and while I don't agree with all of it, that doesn't make me want to see him dead.

As for Yos, I just don't see a good enough case against him to warrant an execution.

I would fully support executing the following people at this point:
- StallingChamp. Although Zindaras disagrees, his contradiction

was

scummy to me, and he has proven himself to be utterly useless ever since. His predecessor ChannelDelibird wasn't as bad, but looking over his posts, I'm not too fond of him either.
- Twomz. Reasons stated before. Prominent member of the bird wagon, piggybacked onto Fritzler, used Burden of Proof, dropped off the face of the earth. The fact that his replacement is taking forever to drop by isn't exactly reassuring either.

If you want me to comment on anything else before the deadline hits, make it snappy.

Which, in retrospect, looks like a defense of Pooky, with a quick "Yos dosn't really look scummy either" comment thrown in to semi-disguise the defense of pooky.

Also, MOS laid out some interesting points against you, I would suggest responding to those posts as well.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, you asked for the case against SV. What did you think of it and her response to it?

-

Well, you made some interesting points, and the way you made your case actually makes me a little less suspicious of you. But some of the points you made against her were for moves I tended to agree with at the time, (for example, I thought Phoebus's early "gut" votes WERE kind of scummy), and the rest were intersting but not especally strong, IMHO, so I still don't consider her to be in my top 3 suspects at the moment.

[Yosarian2]

I'm not going to drag this out too much longer, don't want this game to start dragging again. As battlemage just replaced in for one of the people on my hit list, I'm going to give him a bit of time to read the thread and reply to the accusations against his predecessors and such. Beyond that, I might not wait that much longer unless there is some good coversation going on. If you have something to say, I'd suggest you say it soon.

[Yosarian2]

Overall... I still lean

against

a MoS execution. I don't really appreciate his chosen playstyle for the game, but his analyses look pretty clean to me, and although he isn't voting, he is making who he wants executed fairly clear. Not many things I can find which I find which strike me as

scummy

. I will have to read the cases against him to see if there is something I have missed, but I'm thinking he is more likely to be town than scum at this point.

Yeah, I tend to agree, for the moment anyway.

The case for VR.
1) He's scummy because of wagoning. PJ refuted that in the later post.

No, he didn't. At least, Phoebus certanly was wagoning.

2) The 'kill anybody' attitude. PJ said it's premature. I think it's alright. I think this boils down to a personal playstyle issue, and not a scum-tell.

"kill anyone, I don't care" is just not a pro-town way of acting, at all. It's a complete giving up of your responsibilities.

I don't like a VR lynch for today. I'll respond to the MoS thing later, but I prefer his execution.

Ok, but like I said, right now I'm mostly considering VR, Battlemage (who replaced smashy), and mnowax. So what do you think about battlemage/smashy and mnowax? Earlier, you said you were in favor of executing smashy, but now you don't even mention him. Any specific reason for that?

[Yosarian2]

That's not my entire case againt him/you, VitaminR, as I've made clear.

You seem to be suggesting that it's not fair to attack Phoubus because he only had 17 posts and didn't contribute a whole lot. Which is absurd; I'm not going to be LESS suspicious of someone BECAUSE they were lurking and didn't contribute a whole lot. THe posts he did make looked scummy to me, for several reasons, and the fact that some time has passed between then and now dosn't change anything.

SV: PJ never said that Phoebus wasn't bandwagoning. PJ did say that DOS wasn't bandwagoning, which I suppose is true, but frankly, DOS didn't really do much of anything. Which is again not a point in his favor.

[Yosarian2]

Well, I tend to think Bird was probably pro-town, because one major scum tell that we caught Pooky with was the oppurtunistic jump onto the Bird wagon during the pages lost in the crash.

[Yosarian2]

"kill anyone, I don't care" is just not a pro-town way of acting, at all. It's a complete giving up of your responsibilities.

This sounds like a really easy obvious townie thing to say as scum. 8)

So, if I say something that obveously true, that makes it a scumtell?

Especially since you'd know that basic townies are traditionally the role most likely to just lose interest in a game

I don't think that's necessaraly true; I see scum fade into lurkerdom at least as often, and I've ended up replacing into a game as scum more times then I can count.

And also there was quite a lot of that "execute anyone!" fever going around late yesterday, and I didn't see you in on your high horse then.

You don't see the difference between people getting frustrated by an inactive king and a dying game, and a person who dosn't care who gets killed?

Phoebus's "execute anyone" comments seemed to be an excuse to not comment on any specific people, and that IS a scumtell, as scum often don't like to pick fights and risk making connections.

I did see you encouraging the point of view that we just execute Phoebus to avoid the need for a replacement though 8)

Dude, we've been through this about a zillion times. I thought Phoebus was incredibly scummy, and wanted him executed. If you want to actually disagree with my reasons for suspecting him, rather then keep trying to twist that one-line post I made yesterday, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

[Yosarian2]

Oh? Could you elaborate on this?

There was a very rapid bandwagon on him that got quite a few votes for very little reason, mostly based on that silly "nutkicked" theory, which was lost during the crash. Several people jumped on the wagon, including very oppurtunistic voted from Phoebus, Twomz, and Pooky. I believe that was one of the reasons Glork ended up executing Pooky that day. And that makes me tend to think Bird was probably town, if Pooky was trying to push for a Bird lynch with bad reasons.

Phoebus's "execute anyone" comments seemed to be an excuse to not comment on any specific people, and that IS a scumtell, as scum often don't like to pick fights and risk making connections.

"Seemed to be?" Where's your evidence for this?
[/quote]

I was asking that everyone comment on Glork's LOE, and say who they would lynch, and he responded with "just kill anyone, I don't care" rather then giving any actual analysis.

[Yosarian2]

I've got to say, I really like PJ's case against SV here. That's the first really convincing charge I've seen against SV, and I'm interested in hearing a response.

On another note, the more mnowax refuses to defend himself or to make a case against anyone else or to do ANYTHING, the more tempted I get to just pull the trigger on him, although there are certanly some things I'm going to wait on before ending the day such as PJ finishing his analysis. I would like to hear some complete thoughts from BM on everything such as my LOE and everything, once he finishes re-reading.

[Yosarian2]

Ok. As I said before the crash, if nothing has changed my mind before the deadline, I'm currently leaning towards a mnowax lynch. I'd appriceate it if everyone would post their thoughts on that before deadline.

[Yosarian2]

so yos, who you gonna kill?

I was kind of hoping that my declaring I was leaning towards kill mnowax would get a few people to comment on it, either agree or disagree or something.

And I'm still hoping PJ's going to finish his analys, and at least analyze Mnowax before deadline.

yeah. i ve given everything you wanted yos. anything else?

Well, you clearly haven't convinced me not to lynch you yet. So if you want to try and do that, it'd probably be a good idea. Perhaps go back and respond to some of the cases people made against you and such.

[Yosarian2]

I am particularly amazed after all that has happened that Yosarian hasn't put his money where his mouth is and put Phoebus' replacement front and center for the lynch. Perhaps he's not interested in proving himself wrong?

As I've said, I think Vitamin R's play so far has been fairly good, and with something like 75% of the town terminally lurking I'm not really interested in executing one of the few active players. He's still high on my personal list of suspicion, but I'd rather kill someone else today, I think.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, RafK, when did you become in favor of executing Vitiman R?

[Yosarian2]

I have to support PJ's argument against BM/Smashy/DR.

RafK/mnowax don't ring alarm bells. Mnowax in particular always seems on the scummy side, I think that's his playstyle.

He does, but as I said, CTD, the person he replaced, looked even more scummy.

[Yosarian2]

Methinks RafK is mnowax's scumbuddy, or just completely unobservant. Yosarian was not at all responsible for mnowax's jump to the forefront, I was the one that pointed out how scummy he was, and mnowax did all the work for me.

Meh, I do think there is some truth in what RafK said. Yos hasn't been very open about his thought processes. The way he slowly let go of me as a suspect without really commenting on it is somewhat reminiscent of scum realising they can't get away with the execution they want.

So now I'm scummy for NOT killing you?

And what do you mean "can't get away with it?" A large part of the town agreed with you being a good lynch. If I had killed you weeks ago no one would have been surprised, and I doubt it would have changed anyone's opinion of me no matter what your alignment is.

In any case, I think I have made it clear why you're now in my second tear of suspects; I pointed out early on today that the logical way you made the case against SV looked somewhat pro-town to me, even if I didn't agree with it. The way you've made cases in general today, your high level of activity, and the vibe I'm getting from your posts today all look somewhat pro-town to me. It hasn't made up for Phoebus's behavior, quite, but it makes you less scummy in my eyes then some other people look to me.

[Yosarian2]

You realize that this is all circular logic you're using here, right? You're assuming I have evil motives in who I'm pressuring, and then you're using that assumption to try to prove that I have evil motives in who I'm pressuring.

What I want you to do is to driectly comment on what you think about Mnowax, and specifically, what you think about the person he replaced, crashtextdummies, based on the posts he has made. It sounds like now you're just defending him because of your mistaken asusmption that I'm scum, rather then because of anything he has or hasn't done, and that's useless to me. If you really want to go after me, then do so tommorow, but stop wasting our limited pre-deadline time on this now.

Besides, your whole argument is rather silly. If you just look at today, you'll see that most people, including you, HAVE commented on the Mnowax lynch, so your whole claim that "the Vitiman R lynch would give us more information" is flawed. In fact, your sudden turn on the issue here and your equivication is making me less suspicious of Vitiman R and more suspicious of you.

[Yosarian2]

Geez. The poor mod.

[Yosarian2]

Just so everyone knows, I'm going to kill someone tommorow, on the 27'th, probably at about 24 hours from now. (No sense risking my computer dying on the 28th or something and me missing the deadline.) I am still currently leaning towards killing Mnowax, although I do reserve the right to change my mind and kill someone else if he or someone else somehow manages to convince me he's pro-town in the next 24 hours, and I still do want everyone to comment on him that before the lynch. PJ, if your analysis of Mnowax isn't finished yet, just post whatever you have.

[Yosarian2]

You replaced battlemage, right?

I understand you haven't read all the way though yet, but what do you think about Crash Text Dummies early game posts?

[Yosarian2]

suspense building post

I am going to hammer someone soon, as in, sometime this evening. Anyone else want to put in their two cents, do so fast.

[south park reference]Who will Yosarian hammer? Will it be Mnowax? Battle Mage? Mr Garrison? [/south park reference]

[Yosarian2]

No one on the LoE is nearly as good a choice as mnowax at this point. I don't think Battle Mage is worth the execution, he's getting replaced, so we'll be rid of his troublesome playstyle soon enough.

Battle mage wasn't on the LOE because of his playstyle, it had more to do with the actions of Smashy and Dead Rikimaru, the people he replaced.

[Yosarian2]

Hehe...thanks, PJ, appriciate the analysis. Sounds a lot like my own thoughts.

Anyone else have any final comments they want to make in the next few minutes?

[Yosarian2]

Wow, Fritzer, an actually relevent post.

Anyway, I guess that's it. Mafiascum already went down once tonight, I'd better make this kill now while I can. Wish me luck.

execute:Mnowax

.

[Yosarian2]

Mnowax has come back to life as a zombie. He replaces Battle Mage.

Let's kill mnowax again!

I'd be down with that.

[Yosarian2]

And RafK decided I was scum 3 days ago for a really crap reason, and he's just been repeating it over and over again ever since then. Big surprise.

[Yosarian2]

I've been compiling reasons; you may have noticed that I walked the town through the way you were being a scum king yesterday.

No, you didn't. You assumed I was a scum king, and therefore assumed that everything I was doing had ill motives. You never bothered to actually do what I asked and read mnowax's posts and tell me what YOU thought about them, rather then just assuming he was a bad lynch becauase you were assuming I was a scum king.

You were just assuming that SV was scum because you thought you saw a connection between her and me, and you were assuming I was scum because you were assuming she was scum. Circular argument.

You were assuming that everyone I was attacking was town, because you were assuming I was scum. Until I took some of the pressure off Vitiman R, who you had earlier been defending, and then suddenly you thought it was scummy I WASN'T killing him.

Basically, you took every single thing I've done and have tried to read it in such a way to make it look like I was scum. And all because you decided I was scum days ago, when you misunderstood a one-line post of mine.

So frustrating. You're just lucky that being thickheaded isn't necessaraly a scumtell.

[Yosarian2]

Any specific reason why you're "not super comfertable" with me, thesp?

[Yosarian2]

Heh. I don't want mnowax to get a persecution complex here. It's actually rather brave of him to be willing to replace right back in to batllemage's role, knowing the odds of getting lynched again were probably fairly high. That being said, battlemage was near the top of my list of suspicion yesterday, and I don't really think anything mnowax's done today's likely to change that.

[Yosarian2]

The mnowax execution has changed extremely little since he wasn't a focal point for any of the ongoing arguments through the last couple of days (which if you listen to me is a strong sign of Yos being scum, given that he avoided executing anyone he'd previously argued against).

So, again, you're saying that it's scummy that I didn't execute VitimanR, who I had "previously argued against". I guess I was just supposed to ignore everything VitimanR did and base everything on my earlier observations of Phoebus, huh? I guess it's scummy to be willing to change your mind based on new information, such as all the posts that VitimanR made during the course of the day yesterday?

Well, then, call me scummy. I'd rather change my mind and risk looking scummy then just singlemindedly go after the same person day in and day out no matter what happens and while totally ignoring all other evidence the way you have been.

I did a lot yesterday to try to get the town talking, to get opinions and gather information, but the purpose of my execution wasn't to gather information, it was to kill the person I thought was mostly likely to be scum Again, if you had given some actual reason yesterday for me to not think that Mnowax was scum, other then "Yos is going after him so he must be town", I would have listened and considered it, and if you had a good point I might have been willing to change my mind. When you refuse my requests to attempt to give me an unbiased analyis of Mnowax's posts yesterday, then I tend to think you lose the right to complain about my decision, after you basically refused to help me make it.

[Yosarian2]

Quickly and quietly? He was near the top of my list of suspects for nearly the entire day, until a few other people started looking more suspicious then him.

And it's certanly not "scummy" of me to add a guy onto my LOE I hadn't really noticed before because other people thought he was scummy, and then end up deciding to execute him. Kings NEED to take input from the town and pay attemtion to what everyone says, and be willing to listen to good arguments and take input from the town, or the entire game dies, because if they don't everyone stops giving input and the game dies. Which is pretty much what's happened for most of the game.

It's not even like I "dropped" VitimanR or anyone on my LOE; it's just that I could only kill one person, and I really, really wanted to kill scum, so I went for the person who seemed most likely to be scum to me.

[Yosarian2]

You're "with RafK"? On what? And how, exactally, are you "with RafK"? Or how were his last two posts "on the money"?

fos:lowell

Following someone else's bad arguments in order to attack a good guy is scummy. I need to go back and look at your posts now...

[Yosarian2]

Scummy stuff from Lowell so far...

I'll vote

NO lynch

on MoS and Vitamin

Lynch

for SV and Smashy


.... also, I'll throw in a

vote yos

as well.

Something about this question seems off. I've spent a lot of time pondering but not really following this game, trying to outthink myself in terms of what a scumking might look like (a possibility that we are almost certain to see at some point, if we haven't already) and how he might behave. Well, this is pretty much exactly what I came up with. Narrow the list to four or five AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, include a scumbuddy or two just for the hell of it (in case you're exposed later on), ask everyone's opinion in a very narrow sense, then lynch the townie with the most "votes".

Basically, this is a great way to (a) direct suspicion on a few people, (b) make people lazy about scumhunting (people just answering 'yes' or 'no' questions instead of actively searching for scum), and (c) PROTECT those you worry are garnering suspicion. This last one is big. Basically, with one fell swoop Yos has made us all think about just four people.... of his choosing. Weak.

He attacks me for "limiting suspicion to just a few people", I guess on the theory that the town should be looking at everyone, even though HE had not done ANYTHING before this point during the day. I had to "narrow the list down" because when I was trying to get more general comments everyone just lurked and ignored me. He accuses me of "making us think about just four people", when he apparently also hadn't been thinking of ANYONE all day.

It's also funny that he was trying to blame ME for "making people lazy about scumhunting" when lowell had been incredibly lurky and lazy about scumhunting himself on his own; before my list of execution and demand that everyone respond to it made him post, this was the only post he'd had all day:

Still here. Not reading. Yell if you need me.

...yeah.

The day before, he contributed nothing for the entire month of febuary and most of march.

Just picking up what I think was a prod. Or a general prod. King, kill someone. I have nothing to add at the moment.

Prod received and accounted for.

Waiting for whoever our king is to kill someone.

Oooo yeah, let's all vote him.

That matters.

He's basically done very little all game. He had a couple of content-like posts right after he replaced cardboardbox, but I'm not getting a pro-town vibe from them either.

I don't have time to do much more with this now, I'll take a look at cardboardbox's posts later, but for now I think i'm more then happy to

vote:lowell

[Yosarian2]

CES: No, it's not OMGUSy. If I look at any game, and see person A make a bad argument saying person B is scum, and then person C jumps in and says "yup, I agree with person A" without making any points of his own, I always suspect person C. Especally if I know that person B is pro-town.

[Yosarian2]

Then why didn't you jump ThAdmiral for doing the exactly same thing as Lowell did?

Agreeing with someone else isn't inherernly scummy. The scum tell is specifically using someone else's arguments to support the lynch of a third person, because that's an action that specifically helps the scum.

You jumped Lowell because he was the one who disagreed with you. Therefore, it was OMGUS logic.

No, if you had attacked MOS with bad logic and then Lowell had said "I agree", I would also have been suspicious of Lowell in exactally the same way.

Also noted how you try to hammer in that you're the "good guy" and that Lowell is scum for attacking the "good guy".

Well, I do know that I am pro-town, and that's a small part of the reason that I found Lowell's "me too" attack so suspicious. My initial "fos" post was just a "wow, that looks scummy, I'm going to go back and look at the rest of Lowell" posts then really an attempt to convince anyone else.

You're working very hard to shout down opposition and TALK yourself up as an obviously townie player, but I think you'd be hard pressed to provide examples of your play in this game to back that up.

"provie examples of my play to back that up"? Um, like what? Like all the analyis and scumhunting I've done over the course of this game, or like how I managed to get the town to be more active and participatory yesterday after the game had nearly died the day before? I think I've certanly done more to help the town this game then you have.

In any case, that's not especally relevent; sure I'm going to speak of myself as pro-town, because I am and I know I am. I don't expect anyone else to just take my word for it, of course, but I'm also not going to pretend I don't know my own alignment when trying to anlyze others, that would be silly.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, yeah, I forgot about all the scum you caught.

...and how many scum have you "caught"?

Wait, you didn't. So it's nice of you to stick with the generalities, but you haven't DONE lots of scumhunting.

OF course I have been doing scumhunting. Want me to go back and count how many times this game I've analysed people's posts and people's actions in order to try to figure out if they're scum, or tried to put pressure on people who looked scummy, or asked people questions to try and figure out their alignment? Because that's what scumhunting is.

Once again, you spend a post trying to convince people like you've been this great asset to the town without any substance behind that.

I'm not really trying to convince anyone I'm "A great asset", I'm just responding to your accusations that I've somehow been doing less to help the town then anyone else has, and I don't think that's true.

[Yosarian2]

Jelly, you promised you'd put forth an analysis on me. Make it. Or I may begin to feel very much like mauling you.

As for who I'm looking at, I'm looking mostly at voidybuns (though I know she has problems now, which saddens me greatly), Yossy and Mossy. Maybe I'll take a closer look at the lurkers, too. I remember Fritzler being very pushy on CTD.

Any particular reason you're "looking at" me?

[Yosarian2]

But I

don't

agree when he said his action was not OMGUS - because deep down, I think it pretty much is. You find somebody suspicious for hopping on

yourself

without comment but not when somebody does it to

others

. I tend to do it as well - and although I agree it has some basis in that you can argue you "know I'm innocent, whereas I don't know if X is innocent" - it certainly can't be used to persuade anybody else.

I really don't think my vote for lowell was OMGUS. OMGUS voting is when you vote for someone just because they voted for you, either with no reason or with a really bad reason, and I don't do that.

Now, granted, the best way to get someone's attention is to attack them, and I'll generally take a good look at anyone attacking me, but then I'll only vote for them if they look scummy, not for OMGUS reasons.

[Yosarian2]

The point is that although you looked back on Lowell to see if you would vote him (after you FoS'd him, mind you), you did not do the same for ThAdmiral who did the exact same thing the post before. That shows that your reaction changes when you are the person the comment is directed towards... hence why it

was

sparked by OMGUS.

Except the admeral wasn't attacking anyone, he was just agreeing with my defense of myself. Why would I think that was scummy? I mean, I had thought my defense of myself made pretty good sense, I certanly am not going to think it's scummy if someone agrees with it.

Everyone keeps making this comparison, but it's a very bad one. How could The Admeral's post possibly be scummy in and of itself?

For reference:

I'm with yos on this one...

Which was said right after I defended myself.

Now, if the admiral was only making posts like that, sure, you could say it was scummy that he wasn't providing his own content, but from what I see he's stating his own opinions in other places.

So, if you people really think theadmeral's post is a scum tell, you're going to have to explain to me how it is, because I don't see it. If you people really don't think Lowell's post is a scum tell, again, you're going to have to explain why. Because right now, people just keep comparing apples and oranges and saying "Yosarian, why are you attacking oranges when you didn't attack apples?" Well, I like apples. (Actually, I like oranges too, but you get the idea.)

[Yosarian2]

Ok, let me try to explain this, one more time.

A: Attacks person B
B: Defends himself
C: Agrees with person B
D: Agrees with person A

Now, this is how I see it, in general:

A: Attacks person B<------ Not a scumtell to start an attack on someone
B: Defends himself<------ Not a scumtell to defend yourself
C: Agrees with person B<------ Not generally a scumtell to like somone else's defense; nothing inherently scummy about it.
D: Agrees with person A<-------Scumtell. It's a scumtell to quietly throw your support behind a bandwagon, while hiding behind someone else's arguments. It's actually quite a good scumtell, and something scum do often, because it's a way to get townies lynched without sticking your own neck out. It's one of the oldest and most reliable scumtells.

And to make the scumtell complete, notice the way he backed away from his support when I called him on it, even though he's been going after me in subtle ways for quite a while now. I've got a really strong feelng that he's scum that expects me to be lynched soon and dosn't want to be blamed for it afterwards.

So, no. The whole claim that EVERYONE keeps making that "There's no reason to attack person D if you didn't attack person C!" is completly bunk. Person D committed a scumtell, person C did not. The fact that several people keep repeating this piece of crap logic, while ignoring everything else scummy about Lowell's behavior so far this game and focusing in on that one minor point, is really making me wonder.

[Yosarian2]

This is excellent. That being said, I'm still not sold on Lowell as scum, I have him as far more likely to be town than most players.

Interesting. Why?

[Yosarian2]

This is where we've degenerated into the posting slap-fight.

Oooh, slap fight!

*popcorn*

Thesp vs. MOS slapfight, taking bets now...

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, I agree with PJ competly there.

Lurking is a minor scumtell, always, because scum get more advatange from lurking then town do. It's not a very reliable scumtell, because sometimes pro-town people either dont' have time or just lose interest, but it IS a scumtell.

Being "lazy", being an "active lurker", and trying to appear like you've contributed more then you actually have are all better scumtells then pure lurking; obveously the person is around, and obveously they havn't completly forgotten/ completly given up on the game, but they're not really interested in helping the town find scum. I consider that a pretty big scumtell.

And of course, the above two scumtells are much more serious coming from a king in a kingmaker game, because lack of activity from the king really hurts the town in a major way. Whenever a person does something that hurts the town, the odds of them being scum goes up.

And I'm especally confused by VitimanR's comment that a persn being "self serving" (IE: being more interested in keeping himself safe then in helping the town) is not a scum tell. How is that not a scum tell? "selfishness" or "keeping in the shadows" are signs that a person is more interested in keeping himself out of the spotlight then in finding scum or in moving the game foward, and that is something that makes sense for scum to do (all scum have to do is not get lynched and they win) but does not make sense for town to do (townie's don't want to get lynched, of course, but finding the scum is much more important then keeping yourself safe for a townie.) So yes, of course being "self serving" is a scumtell.

[Yosarian2]

...the king's requests? (goes and looks)

[Yosarian2]

Ah, he wants me to analyze Fritzer and VitimanR. Ok.

Well, I think I've already said quite a bit about VitimanR. Phoebus was always one of my top suspect. I like his replacement VitimanR a bit better, with his activity and his analysis, but he's still probably in the "more scummy then average" catagory; I really didn't like his most recent post in defense of DR, where he seemed to claim that being a lurker king and hurting the town badly in the process somehow isn't a scumtell.

I'll do an analysis of Fritzer in a bit.

[Yosarian2]

Eh...I can never tell if Fritzer is scum or not.

He's done very little this game, even by his standards. 90% of his posts are basically totally contentless, and the rest don't say very much.

He was in favor of killing Ollo/the admerial for quite a while now. He liked the mnowax 1 lynched, and he wants to do it again. He has wanted to kill MOS for much of the game.

That's really about all I get out of his posts. I donno. I'm not going to vote him for playing the way he always plays, but I'm not exactally getting a lot of pro-town vibes either. Many of the people he's suspected for much of the game are still alive, except for CTD/Mnowax I. I will say that he's been fairly consistant about most of his suspicions, but that's about all I can say about him.

[Yosarian2]

(nods) Not a bad LOE. VitimanR and Fritzer are both reasonable lynches, I suppose.

Any reason Mnowax II's not on your list?

[Yosarian2]

Um...yes, I think you do need to say more, mnowax. Like, some actual reasons or thoughts might be nice.

[Yosarian2]

To answer Cavane's question: Yos2, hands down. There is still a slight possibility that SV is a townie being used by the mafia as a stalking horse, someone they defend to gain credibility if a townie executes her. SV has not on the whole, since about day 2, been heavily involved in arguing for and against executions. Yos is no-one's stalking horse. Execution of Yos would establish which "side" is the scummy one.

:eyebrow:

I'm curious. What, exactally, would my death "establish"? Assume, for the sake of argument, that I ws executed and I came up pro-town. What would that prove, exactally?

[Yosarian2]

Would prove I'm full of crap, and probably lead to the execution of myself and others you have been against.

However, I am very very very confident that you would come up scum- knowing that I am town, if you're town as well then the scum have an easy win here by getting you killed (whether by execution or nightkill) and then me executed in retaliation. Or alternatively me nightkilled, and you executed in retaliation. The scum are avoiding this confrontation- there hasn't been a massive chorus of support either with me or directly against me. Instead, time and again the thrust of the support goes to a target off to the side.

How would me being town prove you were scum and get you executed? It would prove that you were WRONG, of course, but I've never argued that you're especally scummy; I tend to thing you're most likely a misguided townie, personally. And I'm not surprised the scum haven't "gone after you"; so long as you continue your crusade against me, you help keep the focus off the scum, and your incorrect assumption that I'm scum could be very dangerous for the town if we both make it to endgame.

[Yosarian2]

Hi kingycakes!

I disagree. I think that a LOE centres discussion. We still have a pretty large game going on. It's better to have discussion centred on a few people rather than a whole mass. This also increases incentive for people to share their opinions.

And it's not being opportunistic, it's common sense Well, I

could

say I'm scummier than the other 2, but then I'll be insane.

No one's asking you to analyze yourself, SV, but you still should give us your opinions on the other two people on the LOE, and on mnowax as well. If you're town, then I don't see why you would automatically attack the other people on the LOE just to protect yourself, so that line of reasoning dosn't make a lot of sense.

[Yosarian2]

...that was kind of a surprising reaction from PJ.

[Yosarian2]

Um, I don't think he was acting insulted, PJ. It sounded like he was surprised Zinderas was going to end the day soon, and wanted Zinderas to state his case against him first. Which was why I was a bit surprised you suddenly got so angry.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, what do you think of Cavane?

I don't have my notes for this game with me at the moment, as I'm away for the weekend and I keep those in a word file on my own computer, and I honestly don't remember offhand what I thought about the people he replaced (that's why I keep notes in a game this big, heh) but I'll take a quick look at Cavane's recent posts now.

Any specific reason you're asking, by the way? Any thing in specific I should be looking for?

[Yosarian2]

There is a specific reason, but your response could give me a possible clue towards your alignment, so I want to see what you say without any prodding in a specific direction.

Most of his posts seem pretty sound, although now that you mention it, this line seems kind of wierd.

Agreed. It's not an unreasonable question. On VitR's part, I mean. I'm not certain what the case on him is, myself.

Cavane: You really don't see what the case is against VitimanR/Phoebus? Have you re-read the whole game?, Because there have certanly been pleanty of solid points made against them.

[Yosarian2]

Like I said when I came in, I scanned through a good portion of the earlier portions of the game. I went back and found PJ's case against him, however, so I'm more informed now on that point. I'm sure you'll understand that there was a lot of information to disgest coming into this thread when I did.

Well, if you want to find the case against him, I personally was suspicious of Phoebus for most of the game, you can start by looking at many of my older posts. You might also want to take a look at some of the discussion yesterday when he was on my LOE, and at some of the discussion today after VitiminR's defense of Mnowax.

[Yosarian2]

Ok Yos, you passed the test. Cavane's post that you quoted as being weird seems to qualify under the "Person C" argument that you were having earlier. I just wanted to make sure you were consistent with finding posts like that scummy.

Hmmm...I guess you could consider it that, although I was mentally putting Cavane's post more in the "defending Vit. R" catagory rather then the "attacking PJ" catagory"

[Yosarian2]

Agreed. Saying "just execute someone" over and over without helping the king figure out WHO to execute is incredibly anti-town behavior. "faster executions" are irrelevent; what the game needs is for people to ACTUALLY TRY AND PLAY THE GAME. 96 pages of "I don't care, let's just kill someone" is abosultly useless.

[Yosarian2]

I'm trying to make up my mind. A Kingmaker claim would obviously help in that respect.

Ah...heh, I was wondering if you were checking to see if either one of them would claim hero.