Kingmaker II-Game Over

[Glork]

Thing is, MoS, you voiced your preference for Yosarian despite the fact that my publicized case never was that strong, objectively speaking. I'm curious to know why you in particular think that I'm a reasonable execution candidate. Could you please elaborate?

[Glork]

Also,

Unvote Yosarian2

.

[Glork]

Alright, MoS's last post prompted me to re-read all of his posts and log his suspicions and defenses. Here's what I have come up with.

Post 168: Suspicious of Twomz, Vaughn, Slay
Post 201: PJ pro-town
Post 208: Cardboardbox is pro-town
Post 230: :goodposting: to Glork
Post 240: <3 Phoebus
Post 264: IGMEOY Glork
Post 300: Agrees with Glork again
Post 324: Phoebus not scum "yet"
Post 416: Prefers Bird execution to Phoebus execution. In the next post (417), he also brings up Thok, Timmy, Yosarian, saying "at least" one of them is scum.
Post 421: Calls out Twomz for voting lots of people without having any votes on him.
Post 438 is an interesting one. Spectrumvoid says that MoS should provide reasons for how he votes, and MoS, instead of providing any reasons, chooses to harp on the semantics of her post by merely saying, "I'm not voting anybody." No, MoS isn't voting anyone; we're all well aware of that. But he has been making claims about who is scum(my) and who is not. In the absence of votes, reasons for suspicions are essential to decent pro-town play.
Post 439: MoS once again defends Phoebus. Interestingly enough, he says "even Thok says Phoebus isn't scum"... despite the fact that he had just voiced his suspicions of Thok a mere 20 posts ago.
Spectrumvoid even clarifies that she wants him to give reasons for his accusations, and in his response (Post 446), he once again ignores the inquiry altogether. Instead, he chooses to repsond to her comment regarding Thok.
Post 489: Voices against Phoebus execution again.

---Enter Day Two---

Post 550: Bird good execution "a day or two from now." Clarify, please, MoS.
Post 672: Replies to StallingChamp by saying he doesn't need to provide reasons for his defenses. More on *that* in just a bit.

---> LuckayLuck defends MoS in Post 688, saying that MoS has made some of the most insightful posts. I care to challenge this now. Mostly what MoS has done is made unfounded and unreasoned accusations or defenses of players and defended his "I won't vote" stance basically by saying "that's the playstyle I am adopting." I would like LuckayLuck to explain what posts he thinks were insightful, and why. Interestingly enough, both LuckayLuck and MoS voiced a preference for me to execute Yosarian rather than Pooky.

Post 895 (made as GlorkoS): MoS advocates executing MBL or Yosarian, but not Pooky "yet." Note all of this "I don't like this

yet

" talk. It's like MoS wants to leave himself all the freedom he can get to go "but I changed my mind. Is that scummy?" I can see the defense already.
**Both Yosarian and I ask MoS to clarify

Post 898: MoS basically says that he's lurking because he doesn't want to die. Though I can understand this sentiment to a certain extent, it feels like a lame excuse at this point. Maybe I'm biased... I don't know.

**MoS's response to Yos's clarification request: Something minor. I might not even remember it. I'm not even going to say anything else on that one. I just want you to read the post and MoS's continued clarity and directness sink in for a little while.

*NOTE: In Pooky's big huge analysis, he says that he is "more willing to put him in my townie column" due to MoS' behavior. In a game waaaay back a while ago (I forget which one, but I can find and cite it if anybody cares that much), I said something like this: "A scumbag who's giving opinions on everyone is most likely to place a 'mostly neutral, though leaning towards pro-town' label on a scumbuddy." Pooky might have done this here, with MoS.

Post 1067: Supports either Yos or Pooky execution; prefers Yos. Compliments me on my "finds."


Now Post 1149: He doesn't mention Yos, his top choice at the end of yesterday. Despite having complimented me on a "good find," he is now "becoming convinced" that I'm a good execution. Flip-flops all over the place.



The big thing is that MoS

has not backed any of his claims or suspicions with any shred of evidence

.* He has either chosen not to respond, has said "Gut," or has said that he doesnt "need" to provide any further evidence or discussion. This is absolute crap. Players

do

need to provide evidence for their accusations. MoS has insinuated that he's lurking and not explaining himself as a survival tactic. I don't remember who I was talking to, but I expressed that finding and killing scum is far preferrable to one's own survival. (And yes, this is coming from the same guy who helped lead 4 out of 5 consecutive scum lynches in Cultural Revolution, was nightkilled, then watched his town fall apart and lose the game.) I have a question for you, MoS. If you lurk, don't provide any reasoning for your opinions, and play the "survival" game, how do you expect

anybody

to trust or believe you when the town approaches endgame?


*Twomz/Thok is the only exception I have found to this rule: he says it's because they were voting for lots of people without recieving votes themselves. I don't understand this train of thought. Could you explain, MoS, why you felt this was a scumtell?

Vote: MoS

. Call it OMGUS if you want, but in his most recent post alone, he managed to convince me that he (and possibly LuckayLuck, by extension) is more likely than Yos to be scum.

[pablito]

If Glork went off his LoE I could respect him more - even though his last post actually convinced me that he took his reign well and was actually trying to find scum. I am starting to buy his Pooky-Twomz wagon hypothesis somewhat valuable. But you know what, the fact that I'm saying this will probably fodder more discussion about how pablito's still trying to buddy up to Glork, so I need to shut up now.

Blatant attempt to save Pooky with "do this and I believe you, Glork". Contains also "Pooky-Twomz is scummy though" argument plus WIFOM in the last sentence.

Back in post 1060, I made it clear what I thought about the LoE and as a bonus, I also took on my personal case of chastising the town about not enough discussion.

People, someone's gotta be executed - so choose.

You had every chance to bring a case earlier, but you failed to make a significant impact and follow-through with your case before we arrived at this deadline. There are few players who can honestly say that they pursued a path but failed to convince the king...MBL is the obvious example I suppose.

I can respect Glork's LoE right now even though I do not think that these two are the best execution candidates at this time. However, someone's gotta die if we want any chance - even if we think they're both pro-town. One or the other is going to give us more information, so who's it going to be?

I've already hinted at it before, but I would execute Pooky. His one post was nice, but I don't think it was great enough to save himself right now. I think Yosarian at the least has been consistent in attempting to answer questions and even proposed his own set of questions to everyone - so there's at least more research that can be done on Yos than on Pooky tomorrow if doubt still lingers. I find that Yos is slightly better to keep around than Pooky - all scumminess aside - simply because he's bothered to push around more generally than Pooky has (who offhand I only remember attacks against bird or Glork).

Tomorrow if I'm alive, something's gotta happen or I'm gonna go crazy at the amazing apathy this town is showing.

Also, I had been pretty vocal D2 that Mert was my top suspect after my six-suspect post and sincerely wanted him dead. Now, I'm not so sure that he's the best suspect, just because we have more to look over. But also because some people, whom have jumped up in my suspicion list since learning about Pooky's alignment, were suspecting Mert yesterday. I obviously wanted Glork to move off the LoE because I wanted Mert gone. In fact, I think my vote on Mert was the only one that stuck throughout the entire day. I voted and unvoted all the others. I still have questions for Mert, but of course, I may never get them answered now. But I still find the fact that Mert talks about voting patterns but completely ignored addressing MoS as being very suspicious.

Also why I wanted Glork to go off his LoE was because a lot of his second-tier suspects (taking Pooky, Yos, pablito and MBL as his first-tier) were people I also strongly suspected such as Mert, StallingChamp and I think there was a CTD or someone else on there. Coincidentally, Mert was my big D2 suspect, and you olio have been my only hold-over vote. So of course I wanted Glork to go off his LoE because we both agreed on these suspects. I wanted him to go onto his second-tier suspects, not to something completely random. I suppose, though, I should be glad Glork stuck to his two-top suspects because it lead to an Assassin death.

As for the timing of everything (which is something I value a lot)...I made 1060 minutes before 1062. In 1060 I took a realist stance and advocated for a Pooky death (which I think I always stated that of the three others on the LoE I always noted Pooky as the most optimal execution). Then in 1062 I did manage to slip in the off the LoE comment. Obviously considering that I shortly asked Glork to go off the LoE, of course it looks scummy. I wasn't not the only, but that's not the point, I guess. I suppose I really can't say that that action looked pro-town. At least the "If Glork went off his LoE I could respect him more" part. I can understand how it looked like I was trying to divert away from a Pooky execution.

So then I'll defend myself by looking at how many times I bothered to say that Pooky was the best option of the LoE.

As for Pooky. Even before you Glork said anything, I had a gut feeling on him. But I can't give more of an argument than that. Something felt off. And interestingly, Rosso's comments made it even more visible. But as I stated before with Rosso's blurb, a Pooky death wouldn't give us any added information if he turns out town.

Here's the point where I begin to significantly disagree with Glork. I do not think MBL belongs on the LoE and my current thought is that MBL is town and I haven't gotten scummy vibes from him in day two. I'm unsure what to think of Pooky because we haven't gotten much off of him lately, but I don't think he's the right play for today either. I've totally forgotten why I was suspecting Yos, but some of the recent arguments on him seem to be slightly convincing me. But nonetheless, I don't see a damning case against him. And me, I deserve to be up there for my erratic game play.

I think that Mert is a strong suspect and should be given a second look.

and whatever happened to the Twomz quasi-wagon? I thought people had strong suspicions on him but he suddenly dropped off the map. Is that because scum forgot about him or is it because we as town have failed to pressure him properly?

WTF? So not thinking Pooky is the "right play" is suddenly crying out that I think he's town? Things are not mutually exclusive. To make it clearer, Pooky is in my "not enough evidence as of late to be sure of his alignment" pile. Yos is in there too.

I'm bringing up Twomz because I remember that in the intial D2 (pre-crash) everyone seemed to be voting both Pooky and Twomz for similar reasons - in fact I remember doing so. But suddenly things become isolated on Pooky. These posts may have been lost, but I was wondering if anyone wanted to re-initiate Twomz wagons. Also aren't a lot of people voting him? I currently don't think Twomz is scum, but I thought it could be interesting to see if people still think he's scum, why so and whether there are any unvotes once his name comes up again.

Everyone else needs to answer the following questions:

1. What do you think of Glork's current LOE? If you were king, what would your LOE look like?

2. If we were going to pick and execute one person on the current LOE, who would it be, and why?

We need everyone to comment on the person who gets executed and the LOE in general before any execution happens, otherwise we're never going to get any information.

I think the LoE sucks. I don't think Pooky's the right play for today and I don't think there's enough right now to see where his alignment's at. However if we get some posts that we can analyze on him, then he might become the right play for today. I think that some of the reason people want him gone is due to some of the lost posts and some of it has to do about what he hasn't addressed rather than what he has addressed. So perhaps it's more frustration with him that might get someone to suspect him than true suspicion.

Yosarian's on the LoE too I think. My last stance goes for him. I posted something when I unvoted him. I don't remember what got made him get attention from me or the unvote from me.

And I'm on there too. I don't think I belong up there, but I deserve to be up there for some of my antics.

And for number 2, if it has to be someone, it might as well be me to execute because I've been on both LoEs, so if you keep putting me up there you might as well just get it done and over with. However, I think you want me to choose one of the others - so that would be Pooky. I remember during the lost posts period that I chose to vote for Pooky and Twomz but explicitly remember not voting MBL over the nut-kicker theory.

I liked reading Pooky's post. It showed insight and it gave us a good indication of where he's coming from. It's not making me feel he's any more pro-town, but it's telling me that I look forward to more posts like that in the future. I suggest a stay of execution for now.

I'm saddened that Mert is still absent. But I still think he's our best lynch option. At least I've been pushing him since early D1 and he never convinced me he's pro-town since then. But is it worth it to wait for Mert to come back/be replaced and focus on others or are we simply (or rather, will the bandwagon that will ensue) gun for Mert because it's the least offensive and most convenient option right now?

And also, now that Mert's on the LoE, I'll vote some more suspects vote: StallingChamp, Zindaras who I've already said I'd like to see on my own version of the LoE (one of the questions Yos asked).[/size]

Honestly, in light of the deadline, I'm all for a Pooky execution. That one post was good, but it's not enough to justify not executing him over Yosarian.

I'd rather neither gets executed, but due to the deadline, something's gotta happen and I'd rather it be Pooky. Also, Mert has no replacement, and I don't know what to think of it.

I guess it wasn't as clear as I thought. But in regards to Yosarian vs. Pooky it always seemed to me that I was unsure of Yosarian, but he had pro-town aspects and with Pooky it was just that I didn't think there was more than gut to go off of with him. Even after Pooky's post I wasn't completely convinced.

And as for reasons for my votes. Well, I vote olio strictly off of his predecessor's actions. Channel Delibird piqued something in my interest (which I've stated before) and StallingChamp never put me at ease. And you olio, well you're not gaining any pro-town posts with me - but I do like your other two votes at the moment, so my stance on you could change. I suppose my stance can only change based on what I see from you today.

As for LuckayLuck. AmeliaSlay always got my gut going for some reason. I think I voted her in D1 for some stupid reason, I don't remember off hand.

PookytheMagicalBear: I really liked your early posts day1, especially your small rampage on posts 68-72. I marked down slight townie for that. Then as the day went on, I didn't find anything that I really liked. Then everyone started suspecting you a bit. I'm not at the point where I suspect you yet, but I'll keep my eye on you in the future in particular, since you probably have a lot of good insights and/or will be hard to catch as a mafia.

That's his original entry post, of course I've always thought LL has been townie up until he gave awkward reasons for voting Mert and then again once we learned Pooky's alignment. Of course, this might just be awkward feeling rather than getting scum vibes. I think LL needs a bit of pressure, nonetheless.

When LL revealed his MS Excel-tastic post, Pooky suddenly came up as a 5 ???? - This is a bit different than his above post or his stance on those on the LoE. Of course, this looks like a natural progression, but interesting to see.

But what caught my eye was how quickly LL moved to his "unvote all but Mert" stance after I did as well. We all know however that LL takes the stance that he trusts certain pro-town players and often follows their suspicions and we know that in the past LL has considered me pro-town. So this is not surprising. But it is something I could see scum as doing. And I'm not really feeling comfortable having a stalker right now (I know, ironic, huh?). I guess it was at that point, that I stopped my "defend Glork to the bone" stance, because if it wasn't obvious by now, I feel both PJ and Glork have enough history in this game alone. And plus, I feel I have to defend myself enough, I don't have enough time to follow with that previous strategy.

I find that it's easier to sum up why someone is NOT scum. Your LOE is currently Pooky/Yos/Mert, so I'll say why Pooky and Yos aren't scum.

for Pooky, I'm not sure, as he's been relatively inactive - but he's back(?) now and came back with a good post. So you can't execute him.

Yos in three sentences:
Several of the people I consider very very townie argue specifically against a Yos execution. You can say that this is a slippery slope, but I am willing to go down this path. Also, Yos's arguments while on your LOE while being one of your top suspects don't quite make sense as scum: he pushes for Twomz and Phoebus, two people that aren't/weren't even on the execution list, and his defense style is just one that is townie.


Mert in three sentences:
Similarly, a lot of people I consider very very townie argue specifically for a Mert execution. Reading his posts, in day1, Mert did not accuse anyone of scummy behavior but rather for "unhelpfulness" - which is something I consider scummy. In day2, he similarly conveniently chose two easy picks: Twomz and Pooky.

I don't agree with how quickly LL trusted Pooky and even went so far as to reverse his previous stance. It just happened so easily. But of course, as we know, anyone that makes a post that looks like one that LuckayLuck would make, he falls in love and can't fall out of it.

That's my case if anything. It's mostly that his reliance on "pro-town players" is just too scummy right now. I've seen it in other games though, so I don't know just yet.

[Zindaras]

This is the first game I ever played with Pooky, which is probably the explanation for my faulty read. I saw Pooky's analysis post as a town tell, not a scum tell.

[Glork]

Pooky's analysis wasn't a tell either way. In the past few months, Pooky had hardly contributed anything in any of his games, whether as scum or as town. After the game, I kinda want to ask why he came out with such a long post.

[Zindaras]

I thought it was a town tell, but I guess I should stop using this as a town tell.

[Glork]

Making big huge posts does not make someone more likely to be town. In some instances, it makes it easier to tell if they're lying (there are more opportunities for them to slip up), but bad guys can spew crap just as much as good guys can argue their stance.

[Zindaras]

Making big huge posts does not make someone more likely to be town. In some instances, it makes it easier to tell if they're lying (there are more opportunities for them to slip up), but bad guys can spew crap just as much as good guys can argue their stance.

It wasn't as much as the big post thing. I do that all the time as scum. What I was mostly surprised is that Pooky posted opinions, something I try profusely to avoid as scum. Overall, the posts just gave me a town vibe (though that was somewhat lessened when he didn't finish his list as promised).

[Yosarian2]

Good point, Glork, I had forgotten MOS had defended Pooky yesterday. Add him to the suspect list.

vote:MOS

This isn't really intended as an argument, because of the extreme WIFOM implications, but it did just occur to me that if you are town, Glork, it's likely the scum were hoping to set me up by leaving you alive but killing MBL. If you're town you would be the most obveous target for the kill last night, but it was fairly obveous after yesterday that you were going to come after me hard today and that you'd have a lot of credibility, and then the scum kill the person who was defending me yesterday.

(shrug) Again, just a thought, but it does seem possible that the scum were hoping they could get us to bash heads all day and take the attention off of them, and perhaps use you to get me lynched. Scum often kill so as to manipulate the next day's conversation. Which might also explain why you weren't killed last night, which was something I had been wondering about.

[LuckayLuck]

That's my case if anything. It's mostly that

[LuckayLuck's]

reliance on "pro-town players" is just too scummy right now. I've seen it in other games though, so I don't know just yet.

And I'm not really feeling comfortable having a stalker right now

Sorry, Pablito. Style. This is neither a scum or townie move for me.
In a game where I would start in (not replace into) I would definitely have something a bit more than going into "complete agreement/reliance" mode: I tried with my first post in this game; however, I feel a little out of it because a lot of my own contribution onto others is that I tend to look at flow and I missed the entirity of day1 which is actually a pretty key day for me. One thing that I'll be doing is sort of piecing together those who I feel as really townieish's ideas and seeing if I can create some synergy there, develop my own ideas as well.

That will come later.


One big comment: nobody has directly quoted this passage and pointed and yelled scum yet (which I'm sure it could be interpreted as, I took a wishy washy path and came up with the wrong conclusion, could be a scum defense)

vote Yos

I'm not doing this because I like it at all, I'm doing it because executing Pooky is worse.

so I'll just get out of that way and FoS myself for doing that

[LuckayLuck]

I'm not even going to hide it: I'm going to try to get on Glork's good side, because Glork is likely a townie. (Duhhhh, yes, he could have executed a scum partner, but I'm going to put that aside for now)

So, here's a direct reponse to Glork:

---> LuckayLuck defends MoS in Post 688, saying that MoS has made some of the most insightful posts. I care to challenge this now. Mostly what MoS has done is made unfounded and unreasoned accusations or defenses of players and defended his "I won't vote" stance basically by saying "that's the playstyle I am adopting." I would like LuckayLuck to explain what posts he thinks were insightful, and why.

A brief summary is that MoS saw the exact same things as I did (no joke, for serious) during my first read through. I would mark something, then I would see MoS post the exact same thing I wrote down. It sort of became creepy. But here is the list of things that I agree with MoS on:

Post 201: PJ pro-town
Post 208: Cardboardbox is pro-town
Post 230: :goodposting: to Glork
Post 264: IGMEOY Glork
Post 300: Agrees with Glork again
Post 324: Phoebus not scum "yet"
Post 416: Prefers Bird execution to Phoebus execution. In the next post (417), he also brings up Thok, Timmy, Yosarian, saying "at least" one of them is scum.
Post 421: Calls out Twomz for voting lots of people without having any votes on him.
Post 438 is an interesting one. Spectrumvoid says that MoS should provide reasons for how he votes, and MoS, instead of providing any reasons, chooses to harp on the semantics of her post by merely saying, "I'm not voting anybody." No, MoS isn't voting anyone; we're all well aware of that. But he has been making claims about who is scum(my) and who is not. In the absence of votes, reasons for suspicions are essential to decent pro-town play.
Post 439: MoS once again defends Phoebus. Interestingly enough, he says "even Thok says Phoebus isn't scum"... despite the fact that he had just voiced his suspicions of Thok a mere 20 posts ago.
Spectrumvoid even clarifies that she wants him to give reasons for his accusations, and in his response (Post 446), he once again ignores the inquiry altogether. Instead, he chooses to repsond to her comment regarding Thok.
Post 489: Voices against Phoebus execution again.

Okay, so I just quoted the entire thing (minus one point which I edited out). That's a pretty big statement on my part. I agreed with MoS on all of this, at the point in time where he voices these opinions. I had the same ones.

---Enter Day Two---

Post 550: Bird good execution "a day or two from now." Clarify, please, MoS.

I will clarify for MoS (well, maybe not, but this is what I thought): At the certain point in time, I thought Bird could definitely be a scum. I wanted Bird to either further implicate himself, or further implicate his scum buddies, which is why MoS is insightful here (is this what you thought too, MoS?)

[Glork]

LuckayLuck, please... for the love of God... do not answer any more questions for MoS. If he is scum and you are giving him answers (regardless of your alignment), you're only helping him not be lynched. Now, the fact that you are attempting to answer for him only indicates to me that you're trying to help him out of the situation I have stuck him in. After MoS posts, you may post your own thoughts. But I fully expect

MoS

to explain

his own

statements and opinions throughout the game.

[LuckayLuck]

I would like LuckayLuck to explain what posts he thinks were insightful, and why.

sorry, I wanted to get this out of the way, it was one of the major points of why I found MoS "insightful."

okay okay, MoS, take it away!

[spectrumvoid]

SV, you missed that I was willing to see Pooky die, just thought Yos deserved it a little more.

Nope, I didn't.

Who wanted Yos
DR, Mos (wanted either but prefers Yos)

Take a look at open 4, where IH (scum) posted a whole chunk of long posts and PBPAs as proof that long posts aren't necessarily pro-town.

LL: About the bit you quoted and FOS'd yourself, I did use it in my player analysis.

I'll shut up about MoS till he says something. Possible scum-pairing: LL + MoS.

Zindaras (reference post 1154): Quit using meta-gaming as an excuse for not getting Pooky. Your defense for thinking pooky's long post is town is meta-gamish. (As in, you don't know his playstyle because you've never played with him before.) Meta-gaming is too unreliable.

[spectrumvoid]

Oh, and there's just something nagging at me about Glork and Yos's recent posts and interactions, but I haven't figured out exactly what. It's something to do with the change in Yos's attitude towards Glork. Post 1159 in particular.

[pablito]

I haven't been following MoS much, so without re-reading his posts, I don't know what to say about this recent discussion.

SV - Regarding your LL/MoS pairing. There's evidence for it in that alone exchange from LL. But LL has linked himself to several players before, so I don't find it knew.

and I think I'll vote

vote: Nightson

because it's in these days. Also I remember doing it before for some reason or other.

I'll be out until the 12th.

[Zindaras]

Zindaras (reference post 1154): Quit using meta-gaming as an excuse for not getting Pooky. Your defense for thinking pooky's long post is town is meta-gamish. (As in, you don't know his playstyle because you've never played with him before.) Meta-gaming is too unreliable.

That's the way I roll, voidybuns. I play very much based on earlier experiences with players. For example, MBL. In Mini 379, I was 100% sure he was town (I believe I even posted that in the thread). When he turned out to be scum, I used this knowledge to reassess my opinion of him in Mini 372, wherein I became sure he was scum, which he was (unfortunately, the game got abandoned before it got to play out).

It's all a matter of gut. My gut doesn't fail me a lot. I've played in loads of games with Glorky, up to the point that whenever I get a solid read on him, I've got a huge chance of my read being correct (in fact, I've got a 100% success rate on him). With people like MBL, it's important to play more games with him, to get more of a feel for his playstyle.

I didn't have a feel for Pooky's playstyle, so I interpreted his posts as a wrong tell.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, and there's just something nagging at me about Glork and Yos's recent posts and interactions, but I haven't figured out exactly what. It's something to do with the change in Yos's attitude towards Glork. Post 1159 in particular.

My attitude really hasn't changed much.

[Glork]

Seems to me Yos is basically saying "I don't want Glork to consider himself cleared, and here's why: Blahblahblahwhateverblahblah. I kinda suspect him, but not nearly as much as I suspect X, Y, and Z."

I don't see how this is a change in attitude. Agreeing with one of my suspicions does not mean that he doesn't think I might be scum.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Still following everything. Although i'm not totally convinced that MoS is scum because of what Glork stated, i'm interested in MoS' comments on where's he attack on. Also curious what Dead has to say so far.

Ill try to keep up with the thread and respond occasionally, but don't expect big posting from me these days, as i'm having personaly problems at home at the moment.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Glork, if I cared whether or not I died, I would hardly be playing like this. My response about the Mountainous game was a joke, but you clearly didn't pick up on that. I hardly see how I am "flip-flopping" my position. Agreeing that your analysis seems right and agreeing with an argument that makes you seem to be scum are not opposite events. It's entirely possible for you to bus a scumbuddy and make a logical sounding argument while being scum, Glork. The fact that you would suggest that the realization of such an occurrence is considered "flip-flopping" just makes me more certain that you are the play today.

As far as bird goes, i didn't have quite the same thinking as LL. I merely felt that it would be beneficial to hear a little more from him before we got rid of him, give him a chance to redeem himself and convince me he's not scum, since I wasn't suspicious enough to want him gone yet.

ROFL. I honestly want you to try and explain how changing your mind is an inherently scummy action. This should be good. When further evidence is presented for or against a person, said evidence has the ability to sway the minds of other players either in support or attack of said person. This is hardly uncommon, nor is it particularly scummy. As the day wore on and Pooky failed to show any signs that he could be protown, I became more willing to put him on the priority lynch list.

Wow Glork. You almost had me believing I'd done something scummy for a second there. Then I actually read the quote about Yos's clarification question

in context

, something your subquote in the link failed to do. I didn't say that his scummy actions were minor or forgotten, but that whatever it was (and I still haven't bothered to figure it out, because it's not really relevant) that had

annoyed

me was minor or forgotten. That's a completely different meaning than what you are implying with the format of your analysis.

*NOTE: In Pooky's big huge analysis, he says that he is "more willing to put him in my townie column" due to MoS' behavior. In a game waaaay back a while ago (I forget which one, but I can find and cite it if anybody cares that much), I said something like this: "A scumbag who's giving opinions on everyone is most likely to place a 'mostly neutral, though leaning towards pro-town' label on a scumbuddy." Pooky might have done this here, with MoS.

You know, I'm feeling good enough that I think I'll even take the bait on this little tidbit, since I don't really care if it makes me look scummier. I have a little question for you, Glork. When's the last time that Pooky was considered a typical scum player? Just wondering .

I thought I already explained the voting tell. Out of context (using just the vote count), someone who has placed a lot of votes without receiving many themselves seems to be flying under the radar or not really garnering much attention, in part because they have spread their suspicions around so much that they aren't really committing to making concerted attacks on any particular people. I figured that early game, that was as good a tell as I was going to get.

[Glork]

Glork, if I cared whether or not I died, I would hardly be playing like this. My response about the Mountainous game was a joke, but you clearly didn't pick up on that. I hardly see how I am "flip-flopping" my position. Agreeing that your analysis seems right and agreeing with an argument that makes you seem to be scum are not opposite events. It's entirely possible for you to bus a scumbuddy and make a logical sounding argument while being scum, Glork. The fact that you would suggest that the realization of such an occurrence is considered "flip-flopping" just makes me more certain that you are the play today.

The reason I choose to interpret your play as flip-flopping is partially because you won't give any explanations as to why you're saying what you do. In fact, at least twice, you've "become convinced" through someone else's argument that the town should take a certain action. That seems

VERY

flip-floppy to me.

As far as bird goes, i didn't have quite the same thinking as LL. I merely felt that it would be beneficial to hear a little more from him before we got rid of him, give him a chance to redeem himself and convince me he's not scum, since I wasn't suspicious enough to want him gone yet.

...alright, that's fair enough. Bird has since then been replaced by K-Scope. What do you think of Scopey?

ROFL. I honestly want you to try and explain how changing your mind is an inherently scummy action. This should be good. When further evidence is presented for or against a person, said evidence has the ability to sway the minds of other players either in support or attack of said person. This is hardly uncommon, nor is it particularly scummy. As the day wore on and Pooky failed to show any signs that he could be protown, I became more willing to put him on the priority lynch list.

Oh, come off it, MoS. I don't think that changing one's mind is scummy. I think that repeatedly throwing out new suspicions and suggestions, without any comment on your previous suspicions/inklings, without giving any reasoning whatsoever, and without . Don't pull this "I'm not scummy for changing my mind" shit with me. It's the entire way you've played so far. You're completely uncooperative, and you're not giving any of

us

a chance to figure out whether

you're

scum or not. I somewhat ignored your play early on, but now I'm starting to think that you have something to hide -- that you won't give any reasons for what you say or do since you don't want anybody connecting you to certain other players (read: your scumbuddies).

Wow Glork. You almost had me believing I'd done something scummy for a second there. Then I actually read the quote about Yos's clarification question

in context

, something your subquote in the link failed to do. I didn't say that his scummy actions were minor or forgotten, but that whatever it was (and I still haven't bothered to figure it out, because it's not really relevant) that had

annoyed

me was minor or forgotten. That's a completely different meaning than what you are implying with the format of your analysis.

Point conceded. I didn't read your response post carefully enough.

*NOTE: In Pooky's big huge analysis, he says that he is "more willing to put him in my townie column" due to MoS' behavior. In a game waaaay back a while ago (I forget which one, but I can find and cite it if anybody cares that much), I said something like this: "A scumbag who's giving opinions on everyone is most likely to place a 'mostly neutral, though leaning towards pro-town' label on a scumbuddy." Pooky might have done this here, with MoS.

You know, I'm feeling good enough that I think I'll even take the bait on this little tidbit, since I don't really care if it makes me look scummier. I have a little question for you, Glork. When's the last time that Pooky was considered a typical scum player? Just wondering .

My experience with PookyScum thus far mainly stems from when we were scumbuddies in Goats Mafia. Pooky freely attacked people who were not in our scumgroup, but he largely ignored what happened with his scumbuddies (Aelyn/Romanus). Considering Pooky was attempting to make a "genuine analysis" on everybody in the game, he couldn't simply ignore you (or his other scumbuddies). So I've come to the conclusion that he likely kept opinions of most (if not all) of his scumbuddies in the neutral to seemingly-protown range.

So basically, MoS... yes, I do expect that Pooky would behave in a "typical" scum manner in this case.

I thought I already explained the voting tell. Out of context (using just the vote count), someone who has placed a lot of votes without receiving many themselves seems to be flying under the radar or not really garnering much attention, in part because they have spread their suspicions around so much that they aren't really committing to making concerted attacks on any particular people. I figured that early game, that was as good a tell as I was going to get.

Alright, I see where you are coming from. But I think that you've exhibited many of the same traits that you yourself consider(ed) scumtells.
Throughout Day One, only two people voted for you. You yourself had not garnered many votes.
Over the course of Day One, you expressed suspicions of or advocated executions of Twomz, AmeliaSlay, Vaughn, Glork, Thok, UberTimmy, and Yosarian2. You also asked that PJ execute Bird over Phoebus, but I'm willing to let that slide since you defended Phoebus so adamantly. Though you did not

vote

for anybody, it is evident that you threw out suspicions

all over the place.

When you were asked to clarify some of your points, you avoided answering the inquiries on more than one occasion. I've already noted these, yet you seem to have decided not to reply to them either. You are at least as guilty of "trying to stay under the radar" as Timmy, Thok, or Yosarian were, considering you blatantly

avoided

replying to people who had questions for you.
I really, really

REALLY

want to hear how you care to explain the fact that you can have the audacity to bring up a tell on Timmy/Thok/Yos while exhibiting the exact same tell yourself. I don't want any of this "But since I wasn't

voting

anybody, the tell doesn't apply to me" nonsense.



Anyway, since you seem to have once again selected what you want to respond to, I'm going to quote a couple of things that I said/asked to which I want you to directly reply:

Post 438 is an interesting one. Spectrumvoid says that MoS should provide reasons for how he votes, and MoS, instead of providing any reasons, chooses to harp on the semantics of her post by merely saying, "I'm not voting anybody." No, MoS isn't voting anyone; we're all well aware of that. But he has been making claims about who is scum(my) and who is not. In the absence of votes, reasons for suspicions are essential to decent pro-town play.
...
Spectrumvoid even clarifies that she wants him to give reasons for his accusations, and in his response (Post 446), he once again ignores the inquiry altogether. Instead, he chooses to repsond to her comment regarding Thok.

The big thing is that

MoS has not backed any of his claims or suspicions with any shred of evidence

.* He has either chosen not to respond, has said "Gut," or has said that he doesnt "need" to provide any further evidence or discussion. This is absolute crap. Players

do

need to provide evidence for their accusations.

I have a question for you, MoS. If you lurk, don't provide any reasoning for your opinions, and play the "survival" game, how do you expect

anybody

to trust or believe you when the town approaches endgame?

[Glork]

EBWODP:

I think that repeatedly throwing out new suspicions and suggestions, without any comment on your previous suspicions/inklings, without giving any reasoning whatsoever, and without

clarifying or elaborating when asked to do so

.

[olio]

So then I'll defend myself by looking at how many times I bothered to say that Pooky was the best option of the LoE.

Looking at your quotes you did it once, so I guess you agree with following as I really didn't see any other defense in your post.

(In post 1062, pablito does following scummy stuff:) Blatant attempt to save Pooky with "do this and I believe you, Glork". Contains also "Pooky-Twomz is scummy though" argument plus WIFOM in the last sentence.

I guess it wasn't as clear as I thought. But in regards to Yosarian vs. Pooky it always seemed to me that I was unsure of Yosarian, but he had pro-town aspects and with Pooky it was just that I didn't think there was more than gut to go off of with him. Even after Pooky's post I wasn't completely convinced.

It always seemed to you that you were giving out such a picture about yourself, you mean?

I honestly want you to try and explain how changing your mind is an inherently scummy action.

I honestly want you to try and explain how changing your mind without any explanations helps town in any way.