Kingmaker II-Game Over

[Zindaras]

Jelly, you promised you'd put forth an analysis on me. Make it. Or I may begin to feel very much like mauling you.

As for who I'm looking at, I'm looking mostly at voidybuns (though I know she has problems now, which saddens me greatly), Yossy and Mossy. Maybe I'll take a closer look at the lurkers, too. I remember Fritzler being very pushy on CTD.

[Thesp]

I will have to reread MoS given Thesp's appraisal, but I think I would like to have Thesp comment on my analysis of MoS I posted the other day before I get to that (though I believe my feeling on MoS has been based more on gut than any solid indicators).

Sure. I hate PBPA in general, and I don't agree in principle with the underlined portion of the following which you said in summary of MoS:

I don't really appreciate his chosen playstyle for the game, but his analyses look pretty clean to me, and although he isn't voting,

he is making who he wants executed fairly clear

.

I think he leaves that intentionally vague, with rare exceptions. Note how he's tried to play up the fact that he supported a Pooky lynch, when he said very, very little of substance on Pooky (and when he did, he was pushing another bandwagon harder). I think that's deliberate.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, yeah, I forgot about all the scum you caught.

...and how many scum have you "caught"?

Wait, you didn't. So it's nice of you to stick with the generalities, but you haven't DONE lots of scumhunting.

OF course I have been doing scumhunting. Want me to go back and count how many times this game I've analysed people's posts and people's actions in order to try to figure out if they're scum, or tried to put pressure on people who looked scummy, or asked people questions to try and figure out their alignment? Because that's what scumhunting is.

Once again, you spend a post trying to convince people like you've been this great asset to the town without any substance behind that.

I'm not really trying to convince anyone I'm "A great asset", I'm just responding to your accusations that I've somehow been doing less to help the town then anyone else has, and I don't think that's true.

[petroleumjelly]

Okay, what number am I on? Looks like I'm on six.

6.) Zindaras

, (rep. Pariah [rep. Machiavellian-Mafia])

M-M does very little – a couple jabs at MoS, and then a promise to post more, followed by replacement. No read on these.

Pariah then replaces. And has one post. Then he gets replaced. This is exciting so far.

Then we get to Zindie, which must have been on Day Two since he addresses Glork as King in his first posts. During his reread, he says he has a total of 9 pages on word (mostly quotes from the game). He quotes 7 of them – which 'jumped out the most' – in his tenth game post. A couple comments here directed towards MBL, one on CTD, two on SV, and town vibe on LL. The most interesting thing about this is actually that when he had read 19 pages of the game, he says that Yos2 and Vaughn [Der Hammer] were most suspicious, but none of those 7 quotes were on either of those players. Of course, this may simply be because neither of those players had a specific post which jumped out, but I wouldn't mind this being explained.

Opinions in his 13th post. For a post with opinions on everybody, it's pretty detailed with post numbers included in most of the analysis. I obviously don't agree with all of it, but then, this is also much later in the game and I don't quite remember what I was thinking that early in the game any longer. Looks fairly substantiated, and Zindie actually does a better job explaining his Yos2 suspicions in this post. He ends with a list {Yos2, MBL, Mert, SV, CTD}, for reference. It doesn't strike me as fabricated after a second read-through, so townie points here.

Eh, slight negative vibes for the "Oh, by the way, pablito, aren't you in any way disliking how MBL's linking you to Glork and PJ?" (his 16th post) – it's too suggestive for my taste. I think Zindie could have achieved the same goal here by saying "What do you think of MBL connecting you to Glork and PJ?", instead of the 'idea-implantation' vibe I am seeing here.

Has a good number of posts with back-and-forth with Pablito and Yos2. I think he holds his own, and by looking at the time-posts of the stamps, it looks like he must have had a good running knowledge of the game at the time he was making these posts, instead of simply relying on the latest posts to come to opinions (which I think scum are more likely to do). Small town vibes for these exchanges, though I fully recognize scum who keep up with the game could have done the same.

Has a very long posting exchange with MBL. I need to read that one again, actually. Okay, looks a little overly hostile towards MBL on the whole, but for a player who I am assuming is not used to playing with MBL (at least at the time of that particular post), I doubt Zindie knew that he is often purposely annoying and antagonistic. I'll label this post neutral overall, I could see it coming from either alignment.

Keeps different responses to different people... I'm fine with his response to CTD, and actually his 27th post gets straight town vibe for two reasons: all of his responses here a short and effective, and although I don't think that is townish in

itself

, when it is joined with his response to the comment of us 'getting no real information from Day One', Zindie immediately lists quite a few people who had taken stances on Rosso and vice versa – a very detailed response when he

needed

to be detailed – it just shows how on top of the game Zindie was at the time as well as the fact that he was using the information we had and was keeping it in mind.

Eh, reading that last paragraph over, it comes across as rather confusing, but meh.

Note: His responses to MBL, CTD, and myself in the next few posts remind me of another game. But I can't go into detail here. ><

After that, Zindie's posting appears to drop off in length in general (though there are still some scattered quote-response-quote-response posts during this time).

I've actually noticed that Zindie says he finds Mert scummy a number of times in-thread, but doesn't have many posts about that (as opposed to having many posts concerning Yos2, MBL, CTD, and such – though this is probably because Mert wasn't posting very often if I remember correctly, so there was nothing for Zindie to respond to). I would like to know what Zindie currently thinks of Mert, and why.

Ah, votes Yos2 over Pooky and would be 'disappointed' with Pooky execution, though I do remember Zindie saying that he simply hadn't played very much with Pooky at the time and hence thought Pooky's analysis on players made him more likely to be town.

Posts drop off quite a by Day Three after the Pooky execution. Could be related, but I know Zindie has been having problems with participation for quite some time, and I also am willing to wager posting dropped for most people during Dead Rikimaru's reign anyways. Exceptionally small amount of posting from December up to now (early May).

Overall: no read on M-M and Pariah. Zindie early in the game struck me as very townish, in that he was clearly keeping up with the game, clearly involved in discussion, not afraid to stick his neck out with accusations, and quick with his responses a number of times according to time-stamps in such a way that it is clear he wasn't simply reading the latest posts and going with the flow. Interested in how a few of his suspicions morphed over time – he seems to be consistent with Yos2 and SV – but interested in what has happened with Mert, Phoebus, early Der Hammer [Vaughn], MoS and how they got where they are. His latest posting has not been inspirational whatsoever, but there is nothing inherently

scummy

in those posts. I would like to see more participation from him (which should be happening since he has been Kinged regardless), but overall I'm thinking he is more likely than the average player to be town.

[Zindaras]

The most interesting thing about this is actually that when he had read 19 pages of the game, he says that Yos2 and Vaughn [Der Hammer] were most suspicious, but none of those 7 quotes were on either of those players. Of course, this may simply be because neither of those players had a specific post which jumped out, but I wouldn't mind this being explained.

I think (though I do not know) that I didn't have anything specific to comment on. Also, there's a faint memory of me having posts from the two but later removing them because answers/comments were asked.

Keeps different responses to different people... I'm fine with his response to CTD, and actually his 27th post gets straight town vibe for two reasons: all of his responses here a short and effective, and although I don't think that is townish in

itself

, when it is joined with his response to the comment of us 'getting no real information from Day One', Zindie immediately lists quite a few people who had taken stances on Rosso and vice versa – a very detailed response when he

needed

to be detailed – it just shows how on top of the game Zindie was at the time as well as the fact that he was using the information we had and was keeping it in mind.

*huggle* Thanks, that's nice of you to say.

I've actually noticed that Zindie says he finds Mert scummy a number of times in-thread, but doesn't have many posts about that (as opposed to having many posts concerning Yos2, MBL, CTD, and such – though this is probably because Mert wasn't posting very often if I remember correctly, so there was nothing for Zindie to respond to). I would like to know what Zindie currently thinks of Mert, and why.

Mert simply wasn't posting at all. My gut's telling me that RafK is scum, but I know, mostly from hearsay, that he's a sneaky bugger, so I have no idea how he plays as scum.

Posts drop off quite a by Day Three after the Pooky execution. Could be related, but I know Zindie has been having problems with participation for quite some time, and I also am willing to wager posting dropped for most people during Dead Rikimaru's reign anyways. Exceptionally small amount of posting from December up to now (early May).

I will admit that I was very very disappointed with the choice of Dead Rikimaru for King. I had hoped to be King myself. I think that's part of the reason this game lost its interest for me.

Interested in how a few of his suspicions morphed over time – he seems to be consistent with Yos2 and SV – but interested in what has happened with Mert, Phoebus, early Der Hammer [Vaughn], MoS and how they got where they are.

I'd been out of touch for a while. I forgot most of my more minor suspicions. Mert, now RafK, I like, as I said earlier. Phoebus is now VitaminR, who, now I stop to think about it, could be reminding me of his play in Space Monkeys, replacing for Nightson. Hammyboy's completely gone. MoS...did I ever say I thought MoS was scum? I need a total re-read on the guy. The problem is that most of the discussion about him that I've read was about his playstyle...

[petroleumjelly]

MoS...did I ever say I thought MoS was scum?

Answer:

As for who I'm looking at, I'm looking mostly at voidybuns (though I know she has problems now, which saddens me greatly), Yossy and Mossy.

[petroleumjelly]

Oh, actually, scratch that. I was taking "I'm looking at X" to mean "I think these people are most suspicious", but looking more in context, I think it just means you have been

looking

at them.

[Yosarian2]

Jelly, you promised you'd put forth an analysis on me. Make it. Or I may begin to feel very much like mauling you.

As for who I'm looking at, I'm looking mostly at voidybuns (though I know she has problems now, which saddens me greatly), Yossy and Mossy. Maybe I'll take a closer look at the lurkers, too. I remember Fritzler being very pushy on CTD.

Any particular reason you're "looking at" me?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Actually, mnowax, I think everyone sees it, they've just realized that I'm acting scummy as a result of my pre-planned playstyle this game

No, you're acting scummy because you're scum.

Hardly. Are you sure you've played in games where I've been scum before?

Thok, if possible, could you list out a bit of an explanation of why you think I'm scum? I'd like a chance to respond to it. As you can see, I've been attacked many times in the past, and to date, I've responded adequately to every reason brought against me. Had I not, I would not be living right now, so if there's anything you don't think has been covered yet, feel free to bring it up.

This last statement is flat-out wrong. There are a number of reasons you could be alive which are unrelated to how adequately you may or may not have responded to accusations. (As I read further, looks like PJ beat me to this observation.)

Did you also read further to see me explain this statement in response to PJ's observation, or are you doing selective reading?

Also, I think defenses are highly overrated. Your eagerness to prove yourself as worthy to respond to accusation bothers me, and seems to be more like something scum would be eager to do. (The scum mentality argument frequently goes something like this - "Make a good argument against me which I don't refute / I refute all your arguments, whether you agree with my refutation or not / You have no basis on which to lynch me, how dare you think you can".)

My playstyle in general bothers a lot of people. That doesn't make me scum. Also, my only point with the reference to refuting arguments is that the MoS-hate had died down for the most part recently. If people had not agreed with my refutation of earlier points brought up against me, I do not see why this would happen. Therefore, on the basis that people must have agreed at least somewhat with my refutations, I asked if you had something new to bring to the table.

Hmm. "Thok" should be "Thesp", MoS - and I agree that I would like to see exactly where all those X's came from. If he has notes (inferred, but not definitely so), he shouldn't have much trouble relocating what he found scummy.

My notes are not terribly detailed, but vague references I made as I went along. I had the benefit of knowing some of who's town and who's scum in the readthrough. Here's what I sketched:

X - Wifom

Of course.

X - attacks Vaughn indirectly via bad argument (184)

What? So, someone says that Vaughn not lurking is a sign that he is protown, and I point out that he often lurks as protown, too. First off, I see where you might think it is an attack on Vaughn, but it's not. It was an attack on the crap logic that MBL admitted was craplogic in his next post, meaning I was right. Secondly, how is pointing out the

facts

making a bad argument? I fail to see where an argument was made, other than pointing out that MBL's assumption was wrong.

X - strong irrational defense of Phoebus, rattles off three people that might be scum, including 2 townies and Yos

And? Day one is fun, ain't it?

X - Tries to have his cake and eat it too

I do love my cake. Why didn't anyone tell me there was cake in this game?

X - Pooky is overly vague in suspicion of townieness on him

And Pooky was scum.

X - Tries to accentuate he was willing to see Pooky swing

Why wouldn't I, when someone says that I wasn't willing to see Pooky swing? If I died and came up scum, and someone accused you of not wanting me to be lynched, would you not accentuate that you had in fact said you DID want me to be lynched?

X - WIFOM again with condescension

It's a new fad for me.

X - refuses to read prior players for insight

And? I know how it sucks to replace someone who was being scummy and was actually town. It fucking blows. So here I am, trying to be nice about it and let people get by on their own merits. That's not such a bad thing, is it?

X - "Trap" post

Explain, please.

L2Der Hammer - requests prodding rather than replacement

And? How is this scummy? I would much rather NOT replace people whenever possible, for the same reason that it really sucks to try and read a replacement since they can't tell you why their predecessors did anything, so prodding is always the first option.

X - Pushes mnowax execution

And? He was legitimately scummy. Since when is being wrong an inherently scummy thing?

X - "And at worst..." argument

Am I wrong?

XX - Asserts his unreadability

You go count the number of times I'm lynched as town as opposed to scum and tell me I'm wrong. While you're at it, pay special attention to games where I'm scum.

X - intimidates mnowax defenders

Yup. That was pretty fun.

I've seen a lot of blatant WIFOM rom MoS in regards to his chosen playstyle this game (which is overly vague and problematic in its own right), and have been uncomfortable with many of his arguments. I was uncomfortable with Pooky's words on MoS, and even less comfortable at MoS's lack of words on Pooky, when it's clear that Pooky has been worth discussion (and notably, MoS's only words are passing words of support for a Pooky execution, while more strongly pushing another bandwagon, a hallmark fo wanting to appear against a scumbuddy).

Erm, how is my playstyle "overly vague"? You're just talking out of your ass, now. My very first post explained my playstyle pretty clearly. Also, it would be nice if you pointed out the WIFOM instead of just saying it exists. Then write a 50-word essay about the effectiveness of WIFOM and Jeep's Scumtells in finding scum after they were published. Thanks.

He said from day 1 that he was going to refuse to vote, and that's what got him into trouble from the start. It's not something he just invented.

I'm not sure you've read MoS's post very well, especially given Toaster Strudel's very rational response.

Please explain how Toaster Strudel not believing that I had a pre-planned playstyle showcased a rational response that showed attention to detail and having read the thread before posting.

Anything else?

[Thesp]

Did you also read further to see me explain this statement in response to PJ's observation, or are you doing selective reading?

Pardon me for thinking you were full of crap with that statement as well. (I think my argument was a stronger version of PJ's, FYI.)

My playstyle in general bothers a lot of people. That doesn't make me scum.

I agree. It's your role PM that makes you scum.

[Zindaras]

Oh, actually, scratch that. I was taking "I'm looking at X" to mean "I think these people are most suspicious", but looking more in context, I think it just means you have been

looking

at them.

I'm looking at Mossy because other people seem to think he's scum pretty badly, and I don't feel I should ignore that.

Any particular reason you're "looking at" me?

For one, it's still ye olde suspicion. For two, I am not particularly amused by the way your Kingship yesterday played out.



Cessy, Yossy, Mossy, RafK, I'd like you all to take some time to analyze Fritzler and VitaminR and report your findings.

ThAdmiral, Lowell, Mnowax, I'd like the three of you to make an analysis of my play this game.

Jelly, I want you to scratch my ear in the absence of my ear-scratcher.

Mod

, I'd like to know the status of Der Hammer, Fritzler, K-Scope, Voidybuns, Toaster Strudel and VitaminR.

[spectrumvoid]

I'm here.

At this time, I don't see myself adding much to the discussion (about me). Basically a lot of what people think was suspicious has been already explored yesterday. I think I've explained myself pretty thoroughly, leading to a little repetition.

Like I said earlier, if anyone has anything specific directed to me, I'll be glad to answer.

I'll probably go take a look at mossy or yossy.

[spectrumvoid]

Eeks. Forgot my reasoning. I can never analyse Fritzler correctly in every single game I'm in, so I'm not going to try. I've already done something about VitaminR (I remember defending him against something/someone), I'll go dig it up.

I see no point in analysing Zindaras's play at this time. Zindaras has never appeared on my scumdar, so I'm not going to go after him (like the way I did for Glork, and to a smaller extent, PJ.)

[Zindaras]

Okay, voidybuns. It would be appreciated if you could solidify your position on Vitamin and elaborate on your suspicions regarding PJ.

[Lowell]

@Yos- Nope. Not scum. I do like the attention, though.

Clearly, being "with RafK" means I agree with Rafk. On whatever it was.

[RafK]

Cessy, Yossy, Mossy, RafK, I'd like you all to take some time to analyze Fritzler and VitaminR and report your findings.

Snap answer version: I can't read Fritzler. I can't get a sense of what he is here since there's no lynch votes or actions, and his conversational style (or lack thereof) is very hard to read. He's usually very decisive, but this is not a game which lends itself to that unless he gets made King and I don't know that I want to see that at this stage.

As I said yesterday, my stance on Phoebus/VitaminR is inexorably linked to my stance on Yosarian. It is unquestionable that Yos on previous days wanted other kings to actually execute Phoebus, and if Yos comes up scum it practically clears Phoebus/VitaminR by default. I don't have an independent opinion of Phoebus/VR otherwise. Phoebus mostly lurked; VitaminR replaced in after I mentally shut up shop on the issue, so I've been reading him under a town assumption really. Can't say I've read anything that really shook the assumption.

[RafK]

I see no point in analysing Zindaras's play at this time. Zindaras has never appeared on my scumdar, so I'm not going to go after him (like the way I did for Glork, and to a smaller extent, PJ.)

Actually, one of the reasons my suspicions were drawn to you on my original read-through was the way you sucked up to PJ while he was king. You certainly didn't go after him early on.

[spectrumvoid]

I'll do a quote of one of my earlier posts.

The case for VR.
1) He's scummy because of wagoning. PJ refuted that in the later post.
2) The 'kill anybody' attitude. PJ said it's premature. I think it's alright. I think this boils down to a personal playstyle issue, and not a scum-tell.
3) Meta-gaming his change in stance. I think it's a weak point, because a: it's meta-gaming. b: he did say that he'd only read partway through the thread. I've seen many replacements change their minds after reading all the way, myself included.
4) For his connection with me, ie, for selective voting/commenting, attacking. This is some kind of logical fallacy which I can't remember, but it involves trying 2 players together when both alignements are unknown.

I've also explained why I thought VitR's lurkiness was not scummy, in contrast to DR's lurkiness.

RafK:I've already responded to why I behaved the way with regards to PJ in post 2006. I queried him after the execution, and I posted something along the lines of I was satisfied with his answers.

This is exactly what I meant... repetition...

I read through my own posts. There was something about MoS, but I'm going to have to go dig it up.

[VitaminR]

I'd been out of touch for a while. I forgot most of my more minor suspicions. Mert, now RafK, I like, as I said earlier. Phoebus is now VitaminR, who, now I stop to think about it, could be reminding me of his play in Space Monkeys, replacing for Nightson.

How?

Here, but too exhausted to read the posts I need to go through at the moment.

[Toaster Strudel]

Mod

, I'd like to know the status of Der Hammer, Fritzler, K-Scope, Voidybuns, Toaster Strudel and VitaminR.

Status: Impatient, murderous, cranky, bored.

Mood: Still here.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Here is my earlier analysis of Fritzler:

Fritzler:
Day 1 -
- Asks pj to kill CTD
- Likes Mert
- Vouches for Pooky
- Wants CTD dead
- Agrees with Glork's CTD vote
- Asks why CTD isn't dead yet
- Votes CTD
- Agrees with Twomz's post that Fritzler is one of the funnier players in the game
- Says that SV confused pj with pooky about keyboard problems
- Asks if we can kill CTD now
- Says "duh" that he's protown, claims everything he says has intrinsic merit, says "duh" that he found something with CTD, fixes Glork's D1 suspicion list to only include CTD
- wants us to check out his sig
- Wants to know why CTD isn't on any of pj's lists for execution possibility
- Calls pj CTD's scumbuddy
Day 2 -
- Wants glork to reread CTD's posts quickly
- Says MBL being scum in the last mountainous game bodes ill for him this game
- Claims to be Pooky's scumbuddy
- Basically calls StallingChamp a hypocrit, for voting Pooky/Fritz/MoS for lack of content
- Calls StallingChamp a rookie that shouldn't speak
- Pointless response to co-mod post
- Asks Glork to kill either CTD or himself (Fritzler)
Day 3 -
- Asks why he isn't king, votes Nightson
- Claims that Yosarian, Spectrumvoid, Kscope are his top 3 suspects
- Says that Nightson shouldn't bother rereading because he's going to die
- Says he'd execute Glork if he was king
- Another pointless response to Mod

Result: What happened to CTD? Fritzler never gave a good reason to suspect him in the first place (And i think CTD has been fairly protown), but after Day 1 he only mentions him once, and by Day 3 he has whole new suspicions out of nowhere. This has parallels to my play this game, with the exception that I don't believe I have clamored for someone's death so adamantly, only to drop them out of existence. Also, for being so similar to my play this game, I don't think he's come under that much fire from other players beyond the occasional vote, whereas I have been attacked by the majority of the players in this game, nearly. I could see him as scum, or perhaps just lazy. Wouldn't mind seeing him hang.

More Result: Mentions CTD once more Day 3: "are we finally killing CTD?"
Only one post today, saying he disagreed with mnowax's post saying who he thought was scum. Don't wanna to a PBPA of what happened since my last one, but he hasn't dont anything useful or any sort of contribution since then, so I still think he's a probable scum sitting mostly under the radar.

[petroleumjelly]

Jelly, I want you to scratch my ear in the absence of my ear-scratcher.

Hey, now

there's

something I can do.

*merrily scratches Zindie's ears*

[Mastermind of Sin]

VitaminR:

- Will reread
- Says he'll do a quicker reread since he was getting attacked
- Slight scum vibe against Dead Rikimaru
- At page 16, thinks SV and PJ are scum, Pablito and MoS town
- One of Rafk/KaleiDoscope is scum for jumping on the pooky wagon quickly
- Fritz is suspicious (w/ reasons), Zindie is protown
- Fritz is protown for actually participating. Undecided about PJ, votes SV, RafK, and Kscope. Don't execute MoS, VR, or Smashy, execute SV
- Thinks Pablito has been consistent and protown
- Likes Shanba's posts
- Wants to hear from Yos
- Doesn't want Yos to ignore SV
- Outlines reasons for SV vote
- Tries to explain his predecessors actions
- Responds to SV's responses, still wants her execution
- Asks Yos what he thinks of the SV case
- Says the SV is scummy because of a pattern, not a single scummy thing
- Explains his change of stance against Dead Rikimaru, emphasizes that he is not wishy washy about MoS being town
- Continues previous post
- Addresses PJ's points against him, posts analysis of DR/Smashy.
- Doesn't think Yos's position against him is justified
- Explains above post
- Explains vote on Rafk
- Explains vote on Kscope
- Elaborates on above post
- More argument with Yos and Rafk
- Unvotes Kscope
- Asks SV to respond to PJ's analysis
- Doesn't want a mnowax lynch, still wants SV dead
- Agrees with RafK's argument against Yos about VR suspicion
- Response to Yos
- Votes SV, likes RafK's recent posting, FoSs Yos
- Asks how Zindie is reminded of VR's Space Monkey playstyle

Results: I get a fairly good vibe from VitaminR. He's consistent and reasonable in his posts, I wouldn't want him executed any time soon. I do have a few questions for him, though.

VR, could you update us as to how you feel about the following people right now:

Dead Rikimaru/Smashy/BM/mnowax
PJ
Pablito
MoS
Kscope
RafK
Fritzler

[Thok]

Mod

, I'd like to know the status of Der Hammer, Fritzler, K-Scope, Voidybuns, Toaster Strudel and VitaminR.

SV, VitaminR, and TS have posted since your comment. I will prod Der Hammer, Fritzler, and K-scope. Der Hammer is the only person who hasn't posted yet today.

[Yosarian2]

But I

don't

agree when he said his action was not OMGUS - because deep down, I think it pretty much is. You find somebody suspicious for hopping on

yourself

without comment but not when somebody does it to

others

. I tend to do it as well - and although I agree it has some basis in that you can argue you "know I'm innocent, whereas I don't know if X is innocent" - it certainly can't be used to persuade anybody else.

I really don't think my vote for lowell was OMGUS. OMGUS voting is when you vote for someone just because they voted for you, either with no reason or with a really bad reason, and I don't do that.

Now, granted, the best way to get someone's attention is to attack them, and I'll generally take a good look at anyone attacking me, but then I'll only vote for them if they look scummy, not for OMGUS reasons.