Kingmaker II-Game Over

[LuckayLuck]

Everyone else needs to answer the following questions:

1. What do you think of Glork's current LOE? If you were king, what would your LOE look like?

2. If we were going to pick and execute one person on the current LOE, who would it be, and why?

We need everyone to comment on the person who gets executed and the LOE in general before any execution happens, otherwise we're never going to get any information.

Out of all these posts, this little section is the most important part. We need everyone to comment on these two questions, they're the key to finding things out. At the moment, due to limited time, I'm going to give a brief answer to part of question #1 - this should also answer some random questions that I've noticed directed towards me. I will also answer those questions in time.

Let me start off with a fun exercise: here are the people that I would

NOT

have on the LOE today (key word is today). Also: I think that at most, there are 2 scum in this list. Maybe 1. I'd pat myself on the back for genius if I managed to get away with 0 scum in this list.

cardb0ardb0x
CrashTextDummie
Dead Rikimaru
Glork
LuckayLuck
Mastermind of Sin
MrBuddyLee
Nightson
Pablito
Petroleumjelly
Yosarian2
Zindaras


These are the people who I would consider executing - which is determined not because I think they are scummy, but because I think they lack townie qualities.

bird1111
Der Hammer (rep. Vaughn)
Fritzler
Mert
Phoebus
PookyTheMagicalBear
spectrumvoid
StallingChamp (rep. ChannelDelibird)
Twomz
UberTimmy

If I were the king, I'd narrow the above list even more, but at the moment, these are the people that I have not received a decent enough townie vibe from.

Glork has 3 of 4 people that I do NOT want executed today on his LOE. That's obviously not a very matching philosophy. Obviously, I'm forced to choose PookyTheMagicalBear to be executed from his list because the other 3 I don't want executed today.

I expect this post to be somewhat controversial, I'll come back and explain certain choices that I've seen a lot of talk over...I'll aim to be able to do it later tonight, but it may be tomorrow. Pretty busy today.

[MrBuddyLee]

Nightson and Twomz are the most obvious skimmers who don't seem to give a rat's ass about finding actual scum. I'll weigh in on the rest after more people have posted their opinions of Glork and his LOE. Glork, I'm inclined to trust you on the Zindaras thing. I guess being kissed up to doesn't ping your scumdar like it does mine. The fact that the guy entered the game and posted War and Peace doesn't hurt his credentials either.

[LuckayLuck]

Before I go, one more quickly explanation behind this post:

MBL, Glork is townie.
Glork, MBL is townie.

Glork, as much as I can see MBL grinding away at you, don't execute him.

It was composed rather quickly because I thought rightly that execution time was coming soon, and I don't want MBL executed (I don't think Glork will actually execute him, though.) Perhaps what I really posted it for, however, is that the Glork vs MBL huge posts are both townies wasting their energy on attacking each other rather than joining efforts to find scum. I think that you guys should shake hands and try to think of each other as masons for the rest of this day2. It will, at the very least, be a good exercise.

[Thok]

Dead Rikamaru posted in GL's Scummy_Doo thread that he has been having computer troubles. Obviously, nobody else has responded to their prods yet. Also, hopefully BMQ is back from his trip, so this is the last you'll be seeing from me.

[Glork]

Checking in. I still want everyone to weigh in on the LoE.

[Thok]

I assume that BMQ is back, but I'll keep an eye on the thread until he confirms his return. I'll give about 24 hours for people/BMQ to return before I start going prod crazy. I'll have a shorter leash for those who were prodded before the crash happened and who still need to post.

Don't make me angry. You won't like me when I'm angry.

[BrianMcQueso]

Alright guys, I'm back, and I hope you didn't miss me too much. Here's the gameplan for how I'm going to recover after the crash:

All players should post (and preferably, something more than "I'm back") before Monday, in order to give time to those who don't check over the weekends. Those who don't post by then will be prodded and will have 24 hours to post before I get rid of them.

[petroleumjelly]

Whoo, that's quite a bit of reading I missed out on. I'll read it with more scrunity, and try post my thoughts in an hour or so. One case in particular caught my eye, and I will also be isolating that person's posts after I'm finished to see what I think.

[Fritzler]

good think glork's king

im going to let him do the work

[petroleumjelly]

I’ll just make a running commentary as I read from after my last post on page 31…

Although I am noticing how I seem to automatically like any post that is long and talks about multiple players, I especially liked Zindie’s post 771, moreso than LuckayLuck’s. Bird1111’s analysis really pales in comparison in particular, seeing as it doesn’t bring many new things to the table. I have a couple questions for him, however, on the points where we most clearly disagree:

1.) What are your reasons for thinking Bird1111 is town? I don’t really see an explanation I can grasp (although I am going to take a ‘wild’ guess that MBL’s nut-kicking theory on Bird1111 is your motivating factor).

2.) It could be the case that I am just continually not seeing the Yos2 “case”, but could you go into more detail on why you think Yos2 is so scummy? If you could try to tailor comments towards my analysis of Yos2 found here, that would be appreciated (and

yes

, I have read your post 780

and

Glork’s post 783).

3.) I actually want you to read MBL’s posts again. I don’t like his play-style either (and I have told him as much before), but he does manage to draw lots of reactions from many people, and oftentimes, it’s pretty clear that’s his intent. Do you think he is

scum

, or just

scummy

?

As it is, I will need to do a reread on SpectrumVoid. I remember I felt rather uncomfortable with her by the end of Day One, and I don’t recall anything happening to sway me away from that. In particular, I also found her to be much too agreeable towards myself, and throughout the course of Day Two, Glork (even though I believe she voted for Glork at one point in time today).

I have probably expressed these thoughts earlier, but I am still thinking Glork is pro-town. He seems genuinely exasperated, and I feel we have both been suffering from the disease of people expecting perfection from the two of us. His posts have been jiving with me, although (as I will get when I go over my thoughts of his LOE) I don’t necessarily agree with his suspicions this game.

I am actually surprised that MBL seems to think he is the person with his head under the guillotine blade. From reading Glork’s posts, I actually had the feeling he was leaning in a completely different direction. This is noted, although I am not sure what to think of it as of yet.

On that note, I

really

hope Glork was not being serious when he said he “knew who he was going to execute today”. I really don’t think that is optimal play. I can certainly understand his point about not giving prior warning (it worked well in KM1), but I think trying to keep a fairly open mind is preferable to already having a decision made.

Actually, special note (which I think is important):

I will seriously do a jig if you turn up scum. You're trying harder to look good than you are trying to play well.

This is

exactly

what I was talking about earlier (and of course, that post was lost in the crash, if my memory serves). MBL has some sort of affinity when it comes to people he likes: he attacks people like Glork and myself for the sake of attacking us. I’m no psychiatrist, but I still think this is because he

really

wants to catch us as scum: and of course, if he attacks us every game he plays with us, he’s bound to be right eventually. This sentence alone makes me think MBL is likely to be town. A real pain in the ass, assuredly; but town.

If

Glork is considering BuddyLee as his execution target, I would also ask that he really sit down and consider other players.

Still reading…

SpectrumVoid’s compilation post does nothing special for me. It seems very heavy on recapping the game, and that (for me, at least) drowns out the opinions tossed in at the end of the post.

Let me start off with a fun exercise: here are the people that I would NOT have on the LOE today (key word is today). Also: I think that at most, there are 2 scum in this list. Maybe 1. I'd pat myself on the back for genius if I managed to get away with 0 scum in this list.

cardb0ardb0x
CrashTextDummie
Dead Rikimaru
Glork
LuckayLuck
Mastermind of Sin
MrBuddyLee
Nightson
Pablito
Petroleumjelly
Yosarian2
Zindaras

LuckayLuck, your list is so frighteningly in-line with my thoughts this game, I almost want to FoS you for good measure. The only points of disagreement I have with this list are Dead Rikimaru, Nightson, and to a lesser extent, CrashTextDummie (all three of whom are running more middle of the pack, instead of in the ‘town’ area). I would also move Mert, Fritzler, and Twomz

out

of the ‘consider for execution’ list. Twomz and Fritz in particular are players you will probably get more used to as your mafia career expands.

My next post will go over my thoughts of Glork’s LOE, and I will see if I can’t make a case for SpectrumVoid afterwards if I’m not too tired.

[petroleumjelly]

Okay, comments on Glork’s list.

1.) MrBuddyLee. I think I covered this fairly well in my last post. I would discourage an MBL execution. See above.

2.) Mert. FRICK! The “view all posts” function is gone! Ugh. I am going to have to wait until I do a full reread before I can answer this question. My last thoughts on him were leaning towards town, but I would like to see all of his posts in isolation before I go giving a second opinion on him for the moment.

3.) Yosarian2. As I linked in my last post, I am really just not seeing the ‘case’ against Yos2. I think he’s town. I can’t really explain any further than the post I have already mentioned.

4.) Pooky. I recall being rather annoyed with Pooky before the constant crashing, and I wasn’t all too impressed with our interaction found here. On the whole, I don’t know what to think of him. I’ve seen him as scum and as town, and what is lacking this game is

effort

. As much as I <3 Pooks, I wouldn’t be terribly disappointed if he was executed today, especially if he intends on keeping with his current level of participation.

Since the “view all posts” function is missing, I will have to hold back on SpectrumVoid (and Mert), since I really don’t feel like skimming through 35 pages of material tonight.

[LuckayLuck]

Random note to the kingmaker:

1. I do not expect to be elected king within the next 3 days. This note is just in case.
2. If I am made the king within the next 3 days, I will be doing something very radical and controversial. This radical / controversial thing will not involve a quick execution. It will include some parts dictatorship, some parts democracy. I believe it will be the best way to proceed, but to others, it will seem like a crazy way to proceed. Maybe to some, it will be an ingenius way to proceed. I don't know.


Addressing petroleumjelly:

LuckayLuck, your list is so frighteningly in-line with my thoughts this game, I almost want to FoS you for good measure. The only points of disagreement I have with this list are Dead Rikimaru, Nightson, and to a lesser extent, CrashTextDummie (all three of whom are running more middle of the pack, instead of in the ‘town’ area). I would also move Mert, Fritzler, and Twomz out of the ‘consider for execution’ list. Twomz and Fritz in particular are players you will probably get more used to as your mafia career expands.

My execution list that you quoted is simply those not on my townie list. Yes, some of them are "I'm not sure / iffy / neutral" at the moment, but the good(?) thing about Kingmaker is that I really don't have to delve deep into any of them unless they are on the execution list or asked to do so etc. I believe strongly in my townie list.

[Zindaras]

Hardly; if someone stood up and said "I'm going to basically just lurk all game and never contribute anything useful, and only post just often enough so as to not get replaced", I would certanly vote for them, because that's anti-town behavior, and the town should never put up with anti-town behavior.

Now, later in the day he did start participating in a useful way dispite the bizzare self-imposed limitation he put on himself, at which point I backed off on attacking him, but I certanly don't think I was wrong to attack him for that early on.

Two interesting things to note: MoS never said he wouldn't contribute. He simply said he wouldn't vote. There is no huge disadvantage to not voting in this setup, if you contribute.

As for the second thing, MoS is the only "non-contributor" who you have attacked in this way. We have far more non-contributors, who have contributed far less than MoS. I don't see you calling those out, specifically.

(shrug) The game was dragging, people were not posting, and there was a deadline coming up. I didn't feel like I had much to say either, but we needed to get conversation going, so I just re-read all of the posts of the people on the execution list and wrote down my thoughts as they came to me. I was trying to stir discussion on those three people, becuase it seemed clear that the king was going to execute on of them, and it apparently failed as most people still didn't comment on them. This game has been pretty frustrating for me pretty much all the way through, and all game I've felt like I've been talking into an echo chamber where everyone ignores me and nothing I say or do seems to matter.

You didn't raise amazing points regarding the three. Your opinions were mainly one-liners.

Again, based on PJ's earlier thoughts, it seemed clear that he WAS going to execute someone on that list, and there was nothing I could do about that. Anyway, if someone picks three people they think are suspicious, the odds are very good that at least one of them is scum, so there's certanly something to be gained by wieghing in on which one looked most suspicious to me.

Now, if I had looked at PJ's list and thought that all three of the people looked townie to me, I would have said so. I did not.

Your stances on all 4 were noncommittal. I find that very suspicious.

I think that in this kind of game we need to have at least some support from the king in order to put pressure on people. No one really feels pressured unless they really think they're at risk.

Now, it dosn't have to be active support; if the King just said something like "Anyone with 8 votes will be automatically added to the LOE", then votes would be a useful form of pressure. But without at least the passive support of the King, it's very hard to pressure people.

You didn't even try, you just told the King to do it. However small, pressure is pressure.

Ok. What has Phoebus done that makes you think he's pro-town? Use specifics, please.

I like his voting behaviour, or most of it (votes on Mert and you). I think MoS is town, and MoS is very sure about Phoebus' townieness.

I was asking for specifics here. What about my defense do you disagree with?

Basically, I agree with Glork's points in Post 601.

The real problem is that we got almost no information day 1, because the king executed someone almost no one had commented on, and most people in the game haven't commented on most people in the execution list it looks like we're heading that way again (although a few now have; nice summery SV).

Oh, I disagree with you there. There were definitely comments on Rosso:

Cardb0ardb0x is suspicious of pablito, MBL and ShadowLurker/Rosso Carne.
ShadowLurker/Rosso Carne votes Cbox.
Cbox OMGUSes ShadowLurker/Rosso Carne.
Pooky (jokingly) attacks ShadowLurker/Rosso Carne.
ShadowLurker/Rosso Carne votes Phoebus and Mert.
Rosso Carne thinks pablito is stupid, PJ is scum and Phoebus is town.
Vibe: Rosso wtf?, Posts 273-278.
Rosso thinks PJ is scum for posting like he's in the scum's heads.
MBL makes a "get your shit together vote" on Rosso.
Pablito votes Rosso, doesn't think Vaughn is scummy.
Glork states: -Rosso is scummy.
PJ will consider Phoebus, bird111 and Rosso.
MBL wants Rosso, Twomz or CTD executed.
Pablito is suspicious of Pooky and CTD and wants a Rosso execution.
PJ posts opinions in Post 516. Puts bird111, pablito, Phoebus, Rosso, spectrumvoid (not so much), Vaughn/Hammer (same performance as KM) as scum.
PJ executes Rosso.

Note MBL here. He went from:

vote: Rosso.

I doubt scum would act that retarded, so he's probably town. This is a "get your shit together, man" vote.

To wanting him executed.

There was definitely interaction between Rosso and other players.

Cardboardbox probably needs to be replaced, he's vanished from the game I'm modding as well.

I can live with that, but it'll be difficult to find replacements for this game.

1. What do you think of Glork's current LOE? If you were king, what would your LOE look like?

I've answered this question before, but my LOE would still consist of Yosarian2, MrBuddyLee, CrashTextDummie, Mert and spectrumvoid.

2. If we were going to pick and execute one person on the current LOE, who would it be, and why?

Mert. We can extract enough information and behaviour from the others before deciding to kick them out, but Mert will probably not come back.

[Zindaras]

Hey Zindaras, I'm curious, are you pitching or catching for Glork's team in tonight's doubleheader? Good god, man, I didn't think anyone could possibly kiss up more than pablito did, but you've done it. Congratulations. I counted thirty-seven distinct suckups to Glork by you, and you've only been in the game four days. And I nearly split a spleen laughing when I read this:

I wanted to know if Glork wanted me to keep an eye out for specific players and such. For the rest, I'm not sucking up to Glork. If you think I'm sucking up to Glork because I'm defending him/I think the people who attack him are scum, you need to understand that defending=/=sucking up. I think you're suspicious, and you're attacking Glork. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and such. It is only logical that we would be found to have comparable opinions.

I can't believe you have the gall to say that when every other sentence you type is a defense of a Glork action or an attack on a comment about Glork. pablito did it strategically for some curious reason or another, but yours looks more like straight up brown-nosing, and it's going to trash your credibility in this game if you're not careful.

Oooh, now I have to be careful, or the big bad boogeyking will execute me!

I already outlined the whats and whys above.

You say you're primarily finding Glork and pablito innocent because of who's attacking them. Well, let me tell you how I see your entry into this game. As scum or town, you decided to make faith in Glork the cornerstone of your worldview. Now, every action anyone takes is seen by you through Glork-colored glasses. And it doesn't sound like you're keeping the option open that the people criticizing Glork are town--you're trying to splat every single anti-Glork point down with a giant flyswatter.

You're putting it wrongly here. I think people attacking Glork are scum, thus I think Glork is Town, not the other way around. It's even in my Player-by-Player Analysis.

What is currently decisive for my opinion on him are the people who are attacking him.

Read better.

If you're town, I hope you realize you're on an island by yourself as you find everything I say scummy and you find everything Glork says smells like roses. It's true that occasionally one town makes a brilliant scum discovery that no one else agrees with, but let me tell ya, ace, this ain't that time.

1) If they wouldn't be convinced of their rightness, the scum discoveries would be useless.
2) I'm not the only one who thinks you're scum.

Addressing your reasons for finding me scummy (which I think are all secondary to the real reason: cause I'm being big meanie to your pal Glork):

*laughs*

This is a silly comment. Since when are suspicions not supposed to change over the course of D1? OMG MBL U RANDOM VOTED PHOEBUS AND U DONT FIND HIM SCUMMY NEMORE WTF

First, you find 5 people suspicious. Then, you find 3 people suspicious, of which only one was on your original list. Then, you make a complete turn again, going to 3 entirely new people when it's lynching time. That's some huge changes, with no new info confirming people as town or scum (no lynches or kills), just posts.

Scum are more concerned with their image than town. Thus they'd be more likely to draw attention to changes in their image via tricks like this. I believe the first scum caught in Himalayan was nailed for doing something similar. I never said it was a guaranteed tell, just something to note.

Mind giving the proof for that?

Linking Mert to Glork was rather ridiculous, in my eyes, when Glork was asking Mert for clarification.

You bought Glork's "linking" paranoia hook, line and sinker, which is not surprising given your deepfelt love for him.

Yeah, I want to have his babies.

What actually happened is that Glork made a big post commenting on most of the players in the game. I noticed that he left out Mert and asked him for his opinion of Mert. Glork called me a fucking idiot who couldn't read. I corrected him--he'd actually never given his opinion of Mert, so he was wrong and I was immensely relieved to not be a fucking idiot. That is what actually happened, and it doesn't surprise me that you were too busy sucking Glork's toes to get the story correct.

Also, your attempts to link me to Mert specifically have also been noted. If I made comments on 16 other people, then there are 7 people that I did not make comments towards.

Your only response to that was :lameposting:. You tried to link Glork to Mert specifically, when there were other people Glork didn't comment on.

I thought you found Pooky a sucky, inactive player.

The fact that I dislike his play so far this game very much doesn't make him sucky.

I stated that Thok was a perfectly fine scumkill N1, so congratulations for missing the crux of my point entirely.

While

I think Thok is never a bad pick for scum to execute N1,

I'll note that the longer Glork, PJ and Pooky are left around the closer they should be watched.

Glork in particular is a prime N1 scum target. Particularly in a game where it'd make sense to off someone who'd make an excellent pro-town king.

The important parts are bolded. You want us to keep a closer eye on Glork, PJ and Pooky simply for surviving. I find that suspicious.

Sorry if this post seems harsh, it's actually all in good fun.

It's a bit harsh, yes, but I understand it's in good fun. It's just a game, after all.

And you really should get your nose out of there before any permanent damage is done.

Before?

[Zindaras]

Zindaras, your case against me is utterly ridiculous.

Well, that's a nice line to start with.

I voiced my opinion, I placed my vote. What else do you expect me to do? Come begging to the king whenever I feel a player hasn't posted enough, so he may do something about it?

Why not? I mean, it doesn't have to be begging, but you can try to bring it to the King's attention.

It should also be noted that there's a difference between not posting at all for a while and posting every once in a while and saying nothing of susbtance in the process. It has already been proven in this game that prodding ubertimmy does not result in him posting any useful content.

Then why did you vote him? Prods nor votes were really helping.

Again, what do you expect me to do? I see something scummy, I vote. I'm sincerely sorry that I don't have 3 paragraph cases on all these people...[/sarcasm]

You could not make an extensive case on PJ? I mean, really, you think PJ is scum, you vote him, but you can't make a big case on him, even if he's been arguably the most prolific player Day One?

I really hope you are joking here, but pointing out scummy posts and voting accordingly is what a pro-town player is supposed to do. You did it yourself when you declared me scummy for one post I made. If I were able to make a detailed case against someone on D2 shortly after a significant number of posts have been lost, this game would be a lot easier.

Yes, you are correct. But you need to do more than just that. Pointing out scummy posts is not enough. You need to keep focusing attention on the players, ask them questions, be inquisitive.

The first time Rosso was mentioned by the king at all was 24 hours (give or take 1) before the deadline hit. Before that, he didn't seem to mind him (check his Post 349 for reference, where he said that he didn't have "any strong feelings" about anyone not discussed by him before. This was after Rosso had made his last contribution to the game, i.e. all his posts were available for review). When he was executed, his only real offense that I could agree with was "not getting his shit together" like he promised, but then again, the pro-town thing to do according to you would have been to ask for his prod, which I don't think anyone did (certainly not the king).

So, because Rosso was town, PJ

has

to be scum?

Which part of "judging by his actions, as opposed to his words" did you not understand? A scum-king can be as pro-town as he wants all day long without doing any harm to himself or his team. It's his execution which ultimately counts. Plus, I wouldn't put it behind PJ to fool me for a while, given his skills at playing this game.

See above line.

Way to not read what I said. I vote PJ because his reign as a whole is more in line with that of a scum-king in my opinion, not because I'm "leaving everything else he's posted" out. Again, I have to ask you: Is it scummy to reevalute someone I found pro-town before with the added knowledge of how the execution went down?

I think PJ was just under a lot of pressure, from the deadline and from himself, and that made him screw up.

Again, you don't seem to grasp what really went down. SC said PJ made a good execution

while at the same time saying that he didn't understand why Rosso was executed at all

. How can it be a good execution if you don't understand why it happened in the first place?

I can't comment on what SC said, since it was lost in the crash, before I got in this game, but it seems like a weak case altogether.

And while we're on the subject of "damning someone for one post", I believe that's what you're trying to do to me right now. Just thougt I'd point that out.

The difference is that I've looked at all your other posts and found nothing in there that speaks for you.

Ubertimmy and bird1111 were the most extreme lurkers on D1 in my opinion. I can't afford to vote every single lurker in the game, because that would render my votes completely useless.

What made your vote on ubertimmy useful, exactly?

Newsflash for you, champ. The king

has

to make all the work for me. The only thing

I

can do is point out who I think is scummy and hope for a pro-town king to make the right decision. I find your accusation that doing this is scummy absolutely ludicrous.

You can make cases against whoever you want to. If they are good, the King will consider them and listen to you.

[Zindaras]

1.) What are your reasons for thinking Bird1111 is town? I don’t really see an explanation I can grasp (although I am going to take a ‘wild’ guess that MBL’s nut-kicking theory on Bird1111 is your motivating factor).

That and the fact that most of the votes on and by him were cast by people I feel are scummy.

2.) It could be the case that I am just continually not seeing the Yos2 “case”, but could you go into more detail on why you think Yos2 is so scummy? If you could try to tailor comments towards my analysis of Yos2 found here, that would be appreciated (and

yes

, I have read your post 780

and

Glork’s post 783).

Well, just go and continue reading the debate between Yos and me, I daresay, but the original reasoning is explained in Post 771:

Another interesting case. I had three scum vibes from him, from Posts 189, 376 and 426. He defended Mert and attacked MoS. He FoSed pablito. He pressured PJ to pressure others (instead of doing it himself). He voted Phoebus. Though Glork stated he thought Yos was pro-town Day 1, he attacked Yos Day 2, an attack against Yos defended himself very awkwardly. He voted Twomz and pablito.

I was suspicious of Yos all reread, and I'm happy to see others picked up on it, even though they did it much later than I did. I've played with Yos before in Reverse Mafia (Mini 370) and his play style seems to be different from that game (in which he was town). I definitely think he's scum.

Now, as for your post.

K... just read through approximately D1, and I suppose Yos2 did not do very much

direct

scum-hunting. He has given some thoughts about game theory, which are at least helping to advance discussion. However, he did push quite a bit on Mastermind of Sin (and on sound reasoning, so far as I am concerned) which at least helped me to form my opinions on MoS. He also scolded cardb0ardb0x a couple times for his posts, although he did not press the issue very much. He poked once at ShadowLurker, Pablito, and slightly Phoebus during D1.

I suppose Yos2 seems like he was playing slightly "safe" (i.e. trying to not to get into debates unless he could handily hold his own, and not being overly provacative), but I would frankly have to review games with Yos2 in order to decide whether or not this is consistent with his normal style (and whether or not I would hence expect that of him), so I am going to find the original Kingmaker (I can't think offhand of another game I've played with Yos2)...

In the original on D1, Yos2 again made a lot of theoretical comments (so I do expect that much). In that game, he narrowed pretty quickly down onto RandomActs after he had claimed Townie (seems like Yos2 might have a thing for D1 targets in particular: RandomActs in KM1, MoS in KM2). He asked a few questions to a few people without pressing the envelop too far. He also voted and confirm-voted Broomhead, which admittedly was actual direct scumhunting (which also pointed to scum), and was well-reasoned.

Comparing the two games, I would say that Yos2's behavior overall is not overly inconsistent. I would also say that (at least early in games) he is rather conservative with his vote(s), so him doing the same in this game is not a problem for me. Yos2 seems to traditionally ask questions generally and comment on current discussions, while only going after one or two people at a time, which is also consistent with this game.

Discussion catches scum in general, however, and I didn't find any of Yos2's posts very scummy (if at all) or contradictory. So, I still think Yos2 is town, although I agree I would have liked to see him present more direct cases.

As you said, he is lacking in the direct scumhunting department. He hasn't presented any great cases, he hasn't added much. My comparison is with Reverse Mafia, and I'm not liking it.

3.) I actually want you to read MBL’s posts again. I don’t like his play-style either (and I have told him as much before), but he does manage to draw lots of reactions from many people, and oftentimes, it’s pretty clear that’s his intent. Do you think he is

scum

, or just

scummy

?

I'll see if I can get around to it, but I honestly think he's scum.

[Zindaras]

Sorry for quintiple posting (this really should've been in the last post). If anyone thinks I should put my big responses all together in one post, please say so and I'll do it that way (even though it'd make for a couple of massive posts).

Glork, I'm inclined to trust you on the Zindaras thing. I guess being kissed up to doesn't ping your scumdar like it does mine. The fact that the guy entered the game and posted War and Peace doesn't hurt his credentials either.

What's the last line supposed to mean?

[pablito]

"I'm here" post.

Sorry, no time to review the latest ongoings.

[MrBuddyLee]

Here.

Zin, the fact that you're posting volumes makes me more likely to think you're town interested in figuring out alignments. The more people post, the more they put themselves at risk for sounding phony, because they KNOW who the scum and innocents are. This is why I try to get everyone to post a lot of responses to a lot of varying crap: it's like the police grilling a suspect. Do it enough times, get them emotional, and you'll catch them in a slip. They'll change a fact or suspicion, or they'll word something in a way that belies their knowledge of someone's alignment. Of course, you'll piss off a few townies in the process, but since when are the cops supposed to be nice guys?

If you're phony, you're doing an OK job of it. If you're for real, I'd broaden your focus and free up your mind a bit if I were you. You're letting one wrong conclusion quite possibly lead you down some wrong paths.

[Zindaras]

I think my focus is broad enough. I'm focusing mainly on 5 guys, but I've expressed suspicions regarding others, and the one I want executed currently is the one who is the most useless of the bunch, if he's town.

[Yosarian2]

Hardly; if someone stood up and said "I'm going to basically just lurk all game and never contribute anything useful, and only post just often enough so as to not get replaced", I would certanly vote for them, because that's anti-town behavior, and the town should never put up with anti-town behavior.

Now, later in the day he did start participating in a useful way dispite the bizzare self-imposed limitation he put on himself, at which point I backed off on attacking him, but I certanly don't think I was wrong to attack him for that early on.

Two interesting things to note: MoS never said he wouldn't contribute. He simply said he wouldn't vote. There is no huge disadvantage to not voting in this setup, if you contribute.

No, he didn't say he wouldn't contribute, and I was never trying to imply that he did. You're trying to take my words out of context here by deleating the part of your post that I was responding to, and as you took the effort of quoting the post and then deleating your words.

The post of yours that I was responding to was this:

For the rest, I find MoS's way of playing not in any way to hurt the town. I have quite a few entries in which MoS stated opinions, so your attack on him is based only on "he won't vote", while votes aren't even that relevant. You seem to find deliberately not casting votes as scummier than deliberately not posting.

You said "You're attacking MOS for not deliberately not voting, but you're not attacking people who are deliberately not posting". And I pointed out the incorrect logic of your statement by saying "I will never contribue anything this game", I would vote for them. In other words, if anyone actually announced a stratagy of delibratly not posting the way MOS announced a stratagy of delibartly not voting, I would have voted for them.

I never said that MOS was deliberately not contributing; I was correcting your mistaken notion that I thought delibratly not voting was worse then delibratly not contributing. I don't like the way you were trying to take my conversation out of context and try to spin to to make it soudns like I meant something I did not by removing your quote I responded to.

As for the second thing, MoS is the only "non-contributor" who you have attacked in this way. We have far more non-contributors, who have contributed far less than MoS. I don't see you calling those out, specifically.

I didn't attack MoS for being a "non-contributor", and that's not true anyway; one of the main reasons I supported a Phobus lynch over the other options PJ offered yesterday was because of lack of useful contrabution on his part.

You didn't raise amazing points regarding the three. Your opinions were mainly one-liners.

What's your point? I was trying to answer the King's question by giving quick opinions on all the people he had on his LOE, so I did a quick re-read of their posts and posted some thoughts; yes, I didn't go into a lot of detail, but it was more of a response then anyone else was giving at the time. Later, I did some more reading on the suspects, and decided that I was in favor of a Phoebus execution.

Your stances on all 4 were noncommittal. I find that very suspicious.

At that point, it was; it was sort of a stream of consiousness post, typed out as I was re-reading their posts. I made a commitment a little later.

You didn't even try, you just told the King to do it. However small, pressure is pressure.

Someone else said the king should pressure lurkers, and I agreed. Is there something wrong with that?

I like his voting behaviour, or most of it (votes on Mert and you). I think
MoS is town, and MoS is very sure about Phoebus' townieness.

#1 is a circular argument; you think I'm scum partly because I'm attacking Phoebus, who you think is pro-town, and you think I'm scum partly because I'm attacking him. It's an especally bad argument as I know you're wrong about me, a possibility you have apparently not even considered.

Your second argument is basically "I think he's town because MOS thinks he's town", which makes me wonder if you're trying to hide behind MOS on this one; if Phoebus turns out to be scum, you can always just blame MOS.

Basically, I agree with Glork's points in Post 601.

And now you're hiding behind Glork.

[Yosarian2]

Edit to stick in a few words that I forgot to put in:

You said "You're attacking MOS for not deliberately not voting, but you're not attacking people who are deliberately not posting". And I pointed out the incorrect logic of your statement by saying that if anyone made the statement "I will never contribue anything this game", I would vote for them. In other words, if anyone actually announced a stratagy of delibratly not posting the way MOS announced a stratagy of delibartly not voting, I certanly would have voted for them.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, by the way, I just remembered that Glork asked a while ago to see a few games where I was scum. That was a while ago, but just in case anyone still cares:

Library Mafia: (I put it first both because it's a short game and because it's one I actually won. )
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 01&start=0

Urban Legends Mafia:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 19&start=0

Cultural Revolution mafia:

Survivor Mafia: (I don't especally reccomend you try to read this one, as it's probably the most boring game of mafia ever played)
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 93&start=0

[Zindaras]

No, he didn't say he wouldn't contribute, and I was never trying to imply that he did. You're trying to take my words out of context here by deleating the part of your post that I was responding to, and as you took the effort of quoting the post and then deleating your words.

The post of yours that I was responding to was this:

For the rest, I find MoS's way of playing not in any way to hurt the town. I have quite a few entries in which MoS stated opinions, so your attack on him is based only on "he won't vote", while votes aren't even that relevant. You seem to find deliberately not casting votes as scummier than deliberately not posting.

You said "You're attacking MOS for not deliberately not voting, but you're not attacking people who are deliberately not posting". And I pointed out the incorrect logic of your statement by saying "I will never contribue anything this game", I would vote for them. In other words, if anyone actually announced a stratagy of delibratly not posting the way MOS announced a stratagy of delibartly not voting, I would have voted for them.

There's a huge difference between not posting and not voting. You can not vote and still contribute. You can't not post and still contribute. If someone announces they will not vote, does that make them scummier than someone who simply doesn't post?

I didn't attack MoS for being a "non-contributor", and that's not true anyway; one of the main reasons I supported a Phobus lynch over the other options PJ offered yesterday was because of lack of useful contrabution on his part.

This is the relevant quote, from Post 189:

I don't see how the way you're playing here could possibly help the town in any way, or how it could possibly find scum. Especally in a game where the town has no information roles, if you're not going to help the town find scum during the day, you're going to have to die.

Not contributing to finding scum-->Attack.

What's your point? I was trying to answer the King's question by giving quick opinions on all the people he had on his LOE, so I did a quick re-read of their posts and posted some thoughts; yes, I didn't go into a lot of detail, but it was more of a response then anyone else was giving at the time. Later, I did some more reading on the suspects, and decided that I was in favor of a Phoebus execution.

What could the King do with your opinions? They were pretty much all "Well, he could be scum, and he could be town."

Someone else said the king should pressure lurkers, and I agreed. Is there something wrong with that?

Yeah, you should do your own work.

#1 is a circular argument; you think I'm scum partly because I'm attacking Phoebus, who you think is pro-town, and you think I'm scum partly because I'm attacking him. It's an especally bad argument as I know you're wrong about me, a possibility you have apparently not even considered.

I have considered the possibility. I'll make sure to look very long and hard at Phoebus if the people I currently suspect to be scum suddenly turn up town.

Like I said to MBL, I'm not so stubborn as to believe I can't be wrong. Which is why I'm currently most supporting of a Mert lynch, since he's the most useless of the people on my suspect list, if he's Town.

Your second argument is basically "I think he's town because MOS thinks he's town", which makes me wonder if you're trying to hide behind MOS on this one; if Phoebus turns out to be scum, you can always just blame MOS.

Nah, I know that if Phoebus dies right now and turns up scum, I'll be looked at with more suspicion. I've put him as Town now, though that is not impossible to change.

And now you're hiding behind Glork.

I can restate his points, but I doubt there is much use to that.

Anyway, Glork really needs to post his opinions regarding the happenings lately.

[Zindaras]

By the way, it would be nice if our Mod could give out a mass prod to everyone who hasn't posted post-crash yet.