Kingmaker II-Game Over


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Post Post #2000 (ISO) » Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:48 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

I have an hour or so (which I should probably be using to do something else), so I'll see what I think of Battle Mage.

4.) Battle Mage
[rep. Smashy (rep. Dead Rikimaru)]


Okey doke. DR starts off the game very slowly, but by trying to draw a connection between Glork and Pablito. I remember a few people saying this made him look 'town', but I never really understood those sentiments – drawing connections is easy to do, and the fact that he labels the distancing technique as 'extreme' seems to indicate he knows it will be seen as unlikely, but thought he would throw it out there anyways. Slightly scummier than townie, so far as I'm concerned, but not a big indicator either way.

Guess he kinds of explains it here:
DR, his Post 2 wrote:I don't think I promoted a pablito/Glork pairing. I think pablito tryed hard to be paired with him.
Which I suppose is more fair, but I don't consider that so much of a "distancing technique" as it is a "connection" technique. He then goes on to vote Pablito (from what I assume is this reasoning).

DR constantly talks about how little time he has, and does things like *fainting* at 39 pages without offering commentary. Lazy/preoccupied at best, scummy at worst.

Eh, I'll give him
minimal
town points for his Post 8, where he contrasts and compares Yos2 and Pooky, and leans towards the Pooky execution – explaining why he thought Yos2 was likely to be town (based on past games, though the actual explanation for why seems thin) and how he can't read Pooky.

And then (I believe) he is made King – where he begins by stating he 'has a strategy', and saying the town should discuss while he's away. At this point, I can't tell if DR was just
really
busy, or if he was thinking "Oh jeez, I better make it sound like what I'm doing – I'll just post as little as often until I can think of something to do". I actually don't think his "everybody list their top 3 scum suspects" was all
too
bad of an idea, though he clearly should have been more attentive to the game to make sure this was actually going to happen.

Neutral points for his resistance to lynching lurkers – I was originally going to give him slight pro-town points for this, but on reflection, it could be just as easy for this to have been a way to subtly push forcing his execution onto a scum-buddy. If this role dies, I will want to take a more critical look at the following players, since these were the lurkers in question:

{RafK [Mert], Cogito Ergo Sum [Samus/Twomz], Mnowax [CrashTextDummie], Der Hammer [Vaughn], Shanba [Nightfall/Ubertimmy], VitaminR [DragonsofSummer/Phoebus]}

DR asks a few direct questions in very short posts for a while, which I suppose shows he was paying some attention, but on the other hand, it makes me wonder why he didn't really bother to comment on much himself. His 'strategy' seems very self-serving. He does go out of his way a couple times to explain why he doesn't want people saying who they think are 'town', which is a gameplay stance I partially agree with, although I often find myself doing analyses on multiple players and calling others' town regardless.

When he lists the "top 3" for all the players who participated, he doesn't really go into asking questions (which is something he seemed to infer he would be doing for much of the day).

Heehee, I still agree with this comment I made:
PJ wrote:His posts almost seem to give off the impression that he is trying to make us wait in suspense for something magical. I haven't even decided if I think that is actually scummy or just unusual.
... and DR keeps talking about how he doesn't have time, coworkers fired, he has a plan, etc etc. He makes a "map" in his Post 32. Impressive compilation, but I honestly don't care for it if he's not going to make
comments
on it. Anybody could summarize a game – what I would rather have seen were some actual opinions. The feeling I'm getting is that he kept asking others' for their opinions without actually giving any of his own, which strikes me as entirely hypocritical and a good way to stay in the shadows while technically being in the "spotlight". And then he is replaced. :roll:

So, onto Smashy. His Post 3 includes opinions. His thoughts on LuckayLuck look fairly legit. His thoughts on MoS seem to be walking-the-line, but for somebody just replacing into the game and seeing MoS's strategy of not voting, I can also see where he got that impression and decided not to put him on the LoE.

Very short comments on everybody else, so those are difficult to analyze for the moment without looking at context. He makes his list between LL and SV; which I find a little odd, given that his comment on SV was:
Smashy, his Post 3 wrote:spectrumvoid: I don't find SV's lack of voting Pooky that scummy given her explaination, except that Glork did give reasons, so out that point goes. There's also been a couple of slips.
Very vague, no explanation of 'slips', no big reason for why she was on the LoE at all. Granted, I still would have liked for her to be executed, but his explanations leave something to be desired. I (obviously) did not agree with the LL execution.

And then we get another replacement... Battle Mage.

Question: BM, why did you specifically FoS: Post 371, by Pablito? Of all the posts in the game up until that point, I'm surprised
that's
the one you comment on, especially since I am not seeing anything wrong with it.

I see I already asked about how BM could possibly have "disagreed with Smashy's analysis" when BM was not even done reading the game. And I'm not fully satisfied with his response to that, so negative points there – looks to me like he was trying to say something that made it sound like he was putting in thought without having to do so. "I disagree" tells me nothing if you aren't going to point out why or about what.

Not really understanding his positions on SV or VitR, or why he is "against" a Mnowax execution (though I still need to read up on him), and then he suddenly says he prefers a MoS execution over a Mnowax execution. Not much reasoning.

BM, have you finished reading the game? Could you go into more detail?

So, overall. Dead Rikimaru's constant lurking (to the point where his posts weren't even about what he was thinking, but instead explaining why he wasn't posting) is more scummy than townish. His 'strategy' which allowed him to not need to take stances while having everybody else commit to thinks was more scummy than townie, and I'm not overly impressed with his Carnie act. Smashy just looks like he was thrown to the lions – it's difficult to really analyze his posts since he was only in the game for a short while, while in the position of having to make an execution. I would have liked more comments from him. BM has very little I can relate with, since he mostly seems to be taking positions as he deems necessary without really explaining how he came to those positions.

I can easily see him as scum – I wouldn't mind seeing him executed whatsoever.
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Post Post #2001 (ISO) » Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:34 pm

Post by RafK »

How did we go from:

Yosarian's
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 511#544511
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 820#548820

in which mnowax wasn't on the shortlist or the final List of Execution, to mnowax not only joining the list but becoming Yos' main target?

My feeling on mnowax remains as it was: I don't have a strong read on him, either way, but the way this day has turned around and zero'd on him makes me feel that he's being set up as a "safe" kill... there's not going to be much information from mnowax because not many people (if any) have taken really strong stands about him, but at the same time he hasn't done anything especially townie that makes him look like an insupportable choice.

I am particularly amazed after all that has happened that Yosarian hasn't put his money where his mouth is and put Phoebus' replacement front and center for the lynch. Perhaps he's not interested in proving himself wrong?


I point this stuff out, of course, because I think we're watching a scum King at work and I would like to make sure his tactics are not missed.
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Post Post #2002 (ISO) » Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:13 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

RafK wrote: I am particularly amazed after all that has happened that Yosarian hasn't put his money where his mouth is and put Phoebus' replacement front and center for the lynch. Perhaps he's not interested in proving himself wrong?
As I've said, I think Vitamin R's play so far has been fairly good, and with something like 75% of the town terminally lurking I'm not really interested in executing one of the few active players. He's still high on my personal list of suspicion, but I'd rather kill someone else today, I think.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #2003 (ISO) » Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:15 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

Anyway, RafK, when did you become in favor of executing Vitiman R?
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #2004 (ISO) » Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:09 pm

Post by Mastermind of Sin »

Methinks RafK is mnowax's scumbuddy, or just completely unobservant. Yosarian was not at all responsible for mnowax's jump to the forefront, I was the one that pointed out how scummy he was, and mnowax did all the work for me.
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Post Post #2005 (ISO) » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:14 am

Post by Lowell »

I'm a new fan of RafK. I think his previous post (2001) is right on the money, and is something I hadn't even thought of until he mentioned it.
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Post Post #2006 (ISO) » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:25 am

Post by spectrumvoid »

Response to PJ's post:

- I believe that playing on emotion is a scum-tell, claiming when not under pressure is a scum-tell, and giving up is a scum-tell. I am very consistent about this. Check any game other than newbie games because I cut newbies slack.

- I pushed for an early LOE because I thought it'd prevent a deadline situation. Also, because at that time players were pretty much all over the place. There were many names being thrown around, and it was difficult to concentrate on who I thought was scummy.

- Contrary to what PJ said, I did not change my mind ENTIRELY because of what PJ said. I also changed my mind because of something that happened in another game, where someone was too focused on a specific group of people being scum, leading to him missing out completely on who the true scum where. I did refer to this in the post PJ quoted: "which has led to horrible consequences in my other games". I was scum in those other games, which was why I didn't want to reveal much. Also the game was on-going. I can't remember which one right now without digging through a lot of game records to check out timelines, but I'm pretty sure it's a mini, and town lost because they completely fixated on someone else being scum. (I think it could be mini 364 or 400, but I really have to go check.)

- The so-called fawning vibe was because I read Kingmaker I. It's also because of a couple of games where I played with PJ and lost. I also have to check timeline because of this, but I think one game was mini 361. And possibly 2-headed mafia.

- I think it's incorrect to use another person who did the same thing and turned out to be scum to argue that I am scum for doing the same thing. In that case, I can think of a ton of other people who always play scummily, turned out to be scum, but are townies in others.

* I just like to add here that when this game first started in September last year, I was completely new and tended to imitate better players because I didn't know what to do yet. I also played in only a few minis/newbies where I screwed up badly prior to joining this game. The fawning posts where very early game (Post 8 + 12). Do note that I stopped this behaviour of my own accord without someone pointing it out at that time. PJ himself didn't realise this till later.

- I think you have my stand on the bird issue wrong. In one of the posts that was lost, I clarified that I was ambivalent regarding the bird nut-kicking theory. I also stated some logic that I cannot remember now, but I posted something about this when the game restarted after the crash.

- All about Glork etc: This is a recurring mistake that I've made. I thought Glork was pushing too hard on pooky, so I thought Glork-scum, Pooky-unlikely to be scum. I noted that Pooky did not respond adequately to Glork, but I put it down to Glork pushing Pooky too hard. I thought Glork was pushing too hard on yos, so I thought Glork-scum. I've clarified everything regarding this entire thing (including exactly why I thought Glork was scum), and I've also clarified that I now think Glork is not scum and exactly why. There's really nothing else I have to say about this issue without sounding repetitive.

- The weak pooky/yos defense was echoed by a couple of other people. In my voting summary post, I noted that there were others were didn't feel strongly about the lynch one way or another, or who changed their mind.

More later.
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Post Post #2007 (ISO) » Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:48 am

Post by Toaster Strudel »

I have to support PJ's argument against BM/Smashy/DR.

RafK/mnowax don't ring alarm bells. Mnowax in particular always seems on the scummy side, I think that's his playstyle.
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Post Post #2008 (ISO) » Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:28 am

Post by Mastermind of Sin »

And here they come out of the woodwork to protect mnowax. Took you long enough. You people don't read very well, do you?
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Post Post #2009 (ISO) » Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:03 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

Toaster Strudel wrote:I have to support PJ's argument against BM/Smashy/DR.

RafK/mnowax don't ring alarm bells. Mnowax in particular always seems on the scummy side, I think that's his playstyle.
He does, but as I said, CTD, the person he replaced, looked even more scummy.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #2010 (ISO) » Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:03 am

Post by Thok »

I'm giving Shanba another 12 hours or so before replacing her. I have a potential replacement lined up (but haven't sent the player in question a role PM yet.)
I replaced into Chess Mafia for 6 months, and all I got was a win and this lousy sig.
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Post Post #2011 (ISO) » Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:03 pm

Post by VitaminR »

Mastermind of Sin wrote:Methinks RafK is mnowax's scumbuddy, or just completely unobservant. Yosarian was not at all responsible for mnowax's jump to the forefront, I was the one that pointed out how scummy he was, and mnowax did all the work for me.
Meh, I do think there is some truth in what RafK said. Yos hasn't been very open about his thought processes. The way he slowly let go of me as a suspect without really commenting on it is somewhat reminiscent of scum realising they can't get away with the execution they want.
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Post Post #2012 (ISO) » Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:29 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

VitaminR wrote:
Mastermind of Sin wrote:Methinks RafK is mnowax's scumbuddy, or just completely unobservant. Yosarian was not at all responsible for mnowax's jump to the forefront, I was the one that pointed out how scummy he was, and mnowax did all the work for me.
Meh, I do think there is some truth in what RafK said. Yos hasn't been very open about his thought processes. The way he slowly let go of me as a suspect without really commenting on it is somewhat reminiscent of scum realising they can't get away with the execution they want.
So now I'm scummy for NOT killing you?

And what do you mean "can't get away with it?" A large part of the town agreed with you being a good lynch. If I had killed you weeks ago no one would have been surprised, and I doubt it would have changed anyone's opinion of me no matter what your alignment is.

In any case, I think I have made it clear why you're now in my second tear of suspects; I pointed out early on today that the logical way you made the case against SV looked somewhat pro-town to me, even if I didn't agree with it. The way you've made cases in general today, your high level of activity, and the vibe I'm getting from your posts today all look somewhat pro-town to me. It hasn't made up for Phoebus's behavior, quite, but it makes you less scummy in my eyes then some other people look to me.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #2013 (ISO) » Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:47 pm

Post by VitaminR »

Yosarian2 wrote:So now I'm scummy for NOT killing you?
Erm... no?
Yosarian2 wrote:And what do you mean "can't get away with it?" A large part of the town agreed with you being a good lynch. If I had killed you weeks ago no one would have been surprised, and I doubt it would have changed anyone's opinion of me no matter what your alignment is.
Actually, there was a reasonable amount of resistance. Your second point is a good one, though.
Yosarian2 wrote:In any case, I think I have made it clear why you're now in my second tear of suspects; I pointed out early on today that the logical way you made the case against SV looked somewhat pro-town to me, even if I didn't agree with it. The way you've made cases in general today, your high level of activity, and the vibe I'm getting from your posts today all look somewhat pro-town to me. It hasn't made up for Phoebus's behavior, quite, but it makes you less scummy in my eyes then some other people look to me.
Fair enough.

It just somewhat surprised me to learn I'd been almost discounted as an execution candidate. Trying to keep the possibility open seemed like something scum would do.
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Post Post #2014 (ISO) » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:18 pm

Post by RafK »

Mastermind of Sin wrote:Methinks RafK is mnowax's scumbuddy, or just completely unobservant. Yosarian was not at all responsible for mnowax's jump to the forefront, I was the one that pointed out how scummy he was, and mnowax did all the work for me.
Yes and yes- but it was Yos' choice to do so. He's the king. He didn't have to give a crap what you poiinted out (for example, he hasn't put spectrumvoid or battle mage on the spot despite PJ's analysis). Yos is responsible for who he puts on the LOE and who he executes.


Yos: I never said I was in favour of executing Vitamin R/Phoebus, but you did and he was even on your initial list of suspects today. I'm pointing out your inconsistencies. My preferred executions are still you and SV, which I'm not likely to get while you're King. A Vitamin R lynch, however, would at least have one saving grace: presuming he turns up town, it would shine a light on those who tried to get him executed yesterday while they weren't personally responsible for it... a mnowax lynch provides relatively little information, since until now he hasn't been at the centre of discussion.
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Post Post #2015 (ISO) » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:23 pm

Post by RafK »

EBWODP: It occurs to me that the above could be read as advocating a VitaminR lynch. This is not the case. My comment on the saving grace of a VitaminR lynch is the reason I believe Yos is choosing not to do it. I mostly advocate Yos bussing SV, with a side helping of Yos suiregiciding.
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Post Post #2016 (ISO) » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:45 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

You realize that this is all circular logic you're using here, right? You're assuming I have evil motives in who I'm pressuring, and then you're using that assumption to try to prove that I have evil motives in who I'm pressuring.

What I want you to do is to driectly comment on what you think about Mnowax, and specifically, what you think about the person he replaced, crashtextdummies, based on the posts he has made. It sounds like now you're just defending him because of your mistaken asusmption that I'm scum, rather then because of anything he has or hasn't done, and that's useless to me. If you really want to go after me, then do so tommorow, but stop wasting our limited pre-deadline time on this now.

Besides, your whole argument is rather silly. If you just look at today, you'll see that most people, including you, HAVE commented on the Mnowax lynch, so your whole claim that "the Vitiman R lynch would give us more information" is flawed. In fact, your sudden turn on the issue here and your equivication is making me less suspicious of Vitiman R and more suspicious of you.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #2017 (ISO) » Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:56 pm

Post by Thok »

Skruffs replaces Shanba.
I replaced into Chess Mafia for 6 months, and all I got was a win and this lousy sig.
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Post Post #2018 (ISO) » Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:14 pm

Post by Mastermind of Sin »

RafK wrote:
Mastermind of Sin wrote:Methinks RafK is mnowax's scumbuddy, or just completely unobservant. Yosarian was not at all responsible for mnowax's jump to the forefront, I was the one that pointed out how scummy he was, and mnowax did all the work for me.
Yes and yes- but it was Yos' choice to do so. He's the king. He didn't have to give a crap what you poiinted out (for example, he hasn't put spectrumvoid or battle mage on the spot despite PJ's analysis). Yos is responsible for who he puts on the LOE and who he executes.


Yos: I never said I was in favour of executing Vitamin R/Phoebus, but you did and he was even on your initial list of suspects today. I'm pointing out your inconsistencies. My preferred executions are still you and SV, which I'm not likely to get while you're King. A Vitamin R lynch, however, would at least have one saving grace: presuming he turns up town, it would shine a light on those who tried to get him executed yesterday while they weren't personally responsible for it... a mnowax lynch provides relatively little information, since until now he hasn't been at the centre of discussion.
So are you trying to tell me that SV and BM haven't had a lot of discussion about them, because Yos didn't put them on the LoE? I'd like to see you explain that one.

It's not about whether or not he gives a crap about what someone says. It's whether or not he agrees with them enough to consider executing them. He happens to agree with my points against mnowax more than PJ's points against BM and SV, and he's not the only one. Mnowax was under a lot of suspicion well before Yos decided to put him on the LoE. In fact, if I remember correctly, Yos put mnowax on the LoE initially
because
of the amount of suspicion there was against him from the town on the whole. Yos did NOT bring mnowax into the spotlight, he was already there. Your whole argument is rather baseless.
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Post Post #2019 (ISO) » Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:14 pm

Post by Mastermind of Sin »

EBWOP: And it looks to me like you're reaching to try and put pressure on Yos.
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Post Post #2020 (ISO) » Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:18 am

Post by Lowell »

Add Vitamin to my list of pro-town players.


... uh, scorekeeper, you out there?
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Post Post #2021 (ISO) » Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:13 am

Post by Battle Mage »

Sorry guys, but ive decided i am gonna request replacement. when i signed up for this game, i didnt mind the reading itself, but the depth of discussion throughout makes for a really heavy game to get to grips with. I really dont feel i have the time or inclination to be of great use to the town here, so im going to let someone better have a shot.
once again, sorry, and thanks for letting me play :)
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Post Post #2022 (ISO) » Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:56 am

Post by Skruffs »

Hi guys.
I'm, uh, I'm replacing Shanba.
Jesus.
*begins to read*
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Post Post #2023 (ISO) » Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:11 am

Post by Mastermind of Sin »

<3 Skruffs
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Post Post #2024 (ISO) » Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:19 am

Post by Battle Mage »

good luck lol. you'll need it ;)
Oh and btw-kill MoS while im away. :P


Skruffs wrote:Hi guys.
I'm, uh, I'm replacing Shanba.
Jesus.
*begins to read*
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2020 Stats - 31 completed games:

Survived to the end and won - 11
Nightkilled - 10
Survived to the end and lost - 6
Day-elimmed by majority - 4

winrate as scum: 78%
winrate as town: 55%

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