Kingmaker II-Game Over

[Cavane]

Hello all. Obviously I've got some reading to do, so I'll see you all when that's done.

[Thesp]

You're supposed to think about your LoE, Zindaras. You're undermining your own authority here, dude.

QFT.

I'm sorely disappointed in the list of execution,

especially

when there are two players who have more formal suspicion expressed against them than two people on the list. I'm especially disappointed not to see MoS not on the list for consideration.

I would support a spectrumvoid lynch. I oppose a VitaminR lynch, and am ambivalent about Fritzler (I think there are a number of better targets out there).

Vote: Zindaras

.

[RafK]

ex-pablito...lol...can't you just call him Thesp?

Reminding myself (and others) of who he was before, for context. pablito had a lot of participation before he was replaced by Thesp.


Of Zindaras' LOE, I vote spectrumvoid obviously. For the reasons previously given by myself and more recently by PJ. To pre-empt SV shoiwng up and saying "but I answered those!", suffice to say that I wasn't incredibly impressed by the answers (I know that SV is now going to ask "Why?", but I've been home for about an hour so I think I'll wait a bit to get to that part).

Since Zindy put SV on the LOE but didn't comment much/at all on the case, I would be interested to know what Zindy's thoughts on the SV case are.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You're supposed to think about your LoE, Zindaras. You're undermining your own authority here, dude.

QFT.

I'm sorely disappointed in the list of execution,

especially

when there are two players who have more formal suspicion expressed against them than two people on the list. I'm especially disappointed not to see MoS not on the list for consideration.

I would support a spectrumvoid lynch. I oppose a VitaminR lynch, and am ambivalent about Fritzler (I think there are a number of better targets out there).

Vote: Zindaras

.

Which four people would you be referring to, Thesp?

[spectrumvoid]

My take on the LOE:
I will be happy with a Fritzler lynch. This isn't because I think he's particularly scummy, but because I think SV is town (:)) and I think VitR is marginally more town than Fritz.

[Thesp]

Which four people would you be referring to, Thesp?

See the vote count - You and mnowax have 4 & 3 votes respectively, while Fritzler and VitaminR have 2 and 1 respectively. For a king who seems to be not participating very much in his own reign, I find it especially odd he glossed over some apparent will of the people without so much as a word.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So you consider votes to be the only form of "formal suspicion"?

[Thesp]

They're certainly the most obvious.

[VitaminR]

VitaminR, what do you think of this analysis of Dead Rikimaru? This was made before he disappeared as king, so it has nothing to do with the lurking, etc. that PJ was talking about.

Dead Rikimaru:
Day 1 -
- Considers distancing tactic between pablito and Glork
- Claims that he didn't promote a pablito/Glork pairing, just that pablito is trying hard to be paired with pablito, can't think of a protown reason for it

I had this too.

Day 2 -
- votes pablito, no additional reasoning
- No post from Oct 27 until Dec 12, nothing of substance or length until Dec 18
- Doesn't find Yos scummy (good post)
- Claims to be unable to read Pooky, prefers him over Yos
- Amused that the LoE only contains those who have criticized Glork

Nothing considerably scummy here, except for perhaps the fourth one. Claiming to be unable to read your scumbuddy is something I would expect from scum.

Day 3 -
- Ask for top 3 suspects from each player
- Doesn't believe in randomly executing lurkers
- Calls for prods on lurkers
- Asks why Glork would bus a scumbuddy early in the game (My answer: Because he knows someone like you would ask yourself this question. Glork has admitted to being willing to bus any and all partners if he thinks it will get him a free pass through the game)
- States there are too many lurkers
- Asks me if my position on Phoebus is the same (I'll get to him eventually)

The lurker thing is somewhat scummy too, I'll grant you. He definitely seems overly concerned with them.

I think, on the whole, there are three clear scummy actions in your analysis that you could base a vote on, but I don't personally find them particularly convincing.

Thesp, to be fair, with the heat coming my way recently, I'm not sure if that 1 vote is still an accurate measure of general suspicion. I know TS and Yos definitely have me near the top of their lists, for one thing.

[spectrumvoid]

VitaminR: If you've read what I've said about you, you'll notice that I think you're more pro-town than some.

Since votes are formal, I'll

vote: Fritzler and MoS

And you're right... why?

[Zindaras]

See the vote count - You and mnowax have 4 & 3 votes respectively, while Fritzler and VitaminR have 2 and 1 respectively. For a king who seems to be not participating very much in his own reign, I find it especially odd he glossed over some apparent will of the people without so much as a word.

Vote: Fritzler, VitaminR

*gasp*

Now it's 4/3-3/2. I honestly don't see how 4 out of 16 means it's the "will of the people", or any more than Fritzler and Vitty are.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Zindie: 1 || Thesp: 0

[Cavane]

Well, that was quite a journey. Admittedly, I scanned over much of first half of the game. I didn't really think stuff that happened 3-4 months ago would be all that pertinant to what's going on now. I'll start compiling a list of things I have something to comment about from this Day. I have a feeling this post is going to be pretty long...

I've been attacked many times in the past, and to date, I've responded adequately to every reason brought against me. Had I not, I would not be living right now

It was already addressed and answered, but I have taken note of this and I didn't really care for MoS' response either.

X - Tries to have his cake and eat it too

What do you mean by that, Thok?

it looks like he must have had a good running knowledge of the game at the time he was making these posts, instead of simply relying on the latest posts to come to opinions (which I think scum are more likely to do).

I disagree with this. In my experience, town players are no more likely to pay close attention to a game than scum players. I consider attentiveness, or lack thereof, to be a non-tell, though admittedly the lack thereof is generally detrimental to the town.

Am I unqualified to think of you as scum if I've not read a game with you as scum? Am I privy to special and helpful information if I have?

Yes to the second question.

I hate it when people A) Ask players to check their other games and use meta knowledge. And B) Assert that doing so is a good strategy. Because it's not. Especially when it's induced by the player in question, as in this case. "Well, since I'm scum, I'll play my usual town playstyle this time and tell people to check my other threads." Also, despite that you didn't address the first question, MoS, you are implying that the opinions of those who haven't played with you are less valid than the opinions of those who have.

So, you're asserting that I haven't been clear in who I wanted executed, I haven't ever said something to the effect of "we should execute x", and I haven't ever proclaimed that I thought someone was protown? Votes are not the only way to indicate how you feel about someone. If you can prove that I've done none of the above (

all of which are just as tangible as a vote

or FoS), then maybe you have a case.

Not true. Your stated suspicions, however crystal clear they might be, still do not show up in a votecount, which is what most players use as a tool to see how the rest of the players are thinking. Expecting every player in this large game to keep track of who you are, were, might be suspicious of is unreasonable.

OMG PJ is a genius too. I am sorry but I must defer to brains that are so much more sophisticated and better irrigated than the bean-sized, oxygen-starved bit of grey matter tightly housed in my thick skull.

Is this not the same kind of 'buddying up' that cbox was condemned for D1? The first time you did it, I wrote it off as a joke, but to actually change your voting simply to follow other players, I think is irresponsible at the least.

I'll execute someone when I feel the game isn't advancing anymore.

Que for scum to start dragging down the discussion... Meanwhile, I'd also like to see a real LoE.

The problem is, there is always going to be at least one instance of where something scum would do has been done by a protown person. That doesn't change the fact that doing so is detrimental to the town and scummy in general.

QFT

89 pages, still 16 players.

EXECUTE SOMEONE ALREADY!!!!

There have been other posts like this, but this is the most recent. These posts kinda suck. They aren't scumtells, but they also don't help anyone except scum. It may be because I'm a newcomer and I'm reading all this back-to-back, but it doesn't seem to me like a whole lot has happened yet Today.

So you consider votes to be the only form of "formal suspicion"?

Yes. It's the very reason that terms like FoS, HoS, IGMEOY, etc. were coined. Votes are formal, anything else is informal, or just a statement.

I'm not prepared to cast any votes yet, as I'd like to get a bit more into this game first. Howver, as for the sort-of LoE, here's how I feel off the bat: SV would be fine, Fritzler I'd like to hear from before formin an opinion, VitR, although I've disagreed with some of his thinking (esp. the big fallacy post) seems townish to me. SV would be my choice right now.

PHEW

[petroleumjelly]

Um. Who are you quoting in those quotes?

[mnowax]

So far LoE and my opinions (not that they will account for much)



SV- i dont think Voidy is a good lynch canidate ...yet...

VitR- I could go for his head. His tactics are a little shady when it comes to defense

Thr Fritz- Lycnh his ass need i say more?

[Yosarian2]

Um...yes, I think you do need to say more, mnowax. Like, some actual reasons or thoughts might be nice.

[ThAdmiral]

I haven't done a full read-through yet, but I seem to remember that zindies play didn't strike me as overly scummy, just...unusual. He has his own style, and thats fine with me.

My thoughts on the loe:

SV - I wouldn't.

Vit - I've been coming round to this one, but I think...

Fritz - is probably the best option today.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Cavane, the reason I didn't answer the first question is because I'm not sure what I think the answer is. I can't really defend myself any more than the answer I gave to that question and the comments I made that led to him asking the question, because if I say anything more, Thesp is just going to blame WIFOM on me, and you can't defend against that, so I'm not going to bother continuing that line of thought.

[RafK]

I like Cavane's views and wish to subscribe to his newsletter. It's nice to replace an uncertain (the perpetually lurking DH/Vaughn) with a presence. My view of the "battle lines" here is finally taking shape.

Much as I'm not 100% certain of Fritzler either way, at this point my main problem with a Fritzler lynch is we need a lynch that resolves some arguments once and for all. We need someone executed that will make some people put up or shut up. Fritz is starting to feel like mnowax was yesterday: a late target about whom there's not been a lot of discussion on previous days. The only difference is that whereas mnowax was not one of Yos' own targets originally, but rather a late switch, Zindy raised Fritzler as an option pretty much from the start of this day (if not for that, you'd better believe I would be chalking Zindy up as a definite scum king right about now, instead of keeping an open mind on the subject).

[Cavane]

Sorry about the lack of who was being quoted. My quote tags break whenever I include a name. In any case, I wasn't necessarily expecting responses from each of the people concerned. That was more for the benefit of the rest of the players, to know where I stand on recent events.

RafK: To begin recieving my newsletter, place $200 (A 20 year subscription) beneath the dumpster on Fourth and Main. You'll find your new issue in the same place bimonthly. Ask about our Gaurantee! Also, who do you think would be the most informative execution, not limiting yourself to the LoE?

mnowax and ThAdmiral: Listen to Yos.

[Mastermind of Sin]

To be honest, SV is probably our best execution today. I agree that Fritzler is starting to look like yesterday's lynch, even though I think he could be scum. SV is another possible scum, and there's been enough debate on her that we'd gain a lot of info from her execution.

[VitaminR]

VitR- I could go for his head. His tactics are a little shady when it comes to defense

I only defended myself yesterday. Today, no one has actually specified what they find suspicious about me. All that has happened is that I stated suspicions of PJ, part of which included disagreeing with his analysis of someone, and then people disagreed with my disagreeing.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Hammer Fritz or Mnowax, now.

[Thesp]

Vote: Fritzler, VitaminR

*gasp*

Now it's 4/3-3/2. I honestly don't see how 4 out of 16 means it's the "will of the people", or any more than Fritzler and Vitty are.

This helps. Thanks!

Why are you still side-stepping Mastermind of Sin? Why isn't he on there?

Also, lynching someone because it will give us information is a terrible reason to lynch someone.

[RafK]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Hammer Fritz or Mnowax, now.[/quote]

Worried about something?

There's definitely sides coalescing on this one. The people desperate for the execution to be Fritz or mnowax (anything but SV!), and the other people. Some of the other people want SV dead, some are looking all around, but there's definitely a bloc fixated on avoiding the execution of anyone who's been the focus of argument. I believe the name of that bloc is "all or mostly scum".

To answer Cavane's question: Yos2, hands down. There is still a slight possibility that SV is a townie being used by the mafia as a stalking horse, someone they defend to gain credibility if a townie executes her. SV has not on the whole, since about day 2, been heavily involved in arguing for and against executions. Yos is no-one's stalking horse. Execution of Yos would establish which "side" is the scummy one. However, of the LOE, I would still execute SV. I think it would be very difficult (especially with the million or so replacements) for the scum to try and set a townie SV up like that.