Mini 1141 - Frogs Mafia 2 - GAME, SET, MATCH

[Amrun]

Hahahaha.

VOTE: Tuncali

[Amrun]

Why would you make two votes in one post, though?

[Amrun]

Oops, there was a page 2! Post was addressed to Truant.

[Amrun]

I really don't understand voting for two people in the same post.

[Amrun]

Well, I think it COULD be indicative of alignment, but in this case, it probably isn't.

Why would you want to vote four players, though?

[Amrun]

If it's a scum tell, why are you not suspicious of him?

p-edit: ninjaed

[Amrun]

How? We have three pages... What "doesn't add up?" You see a scum tell in the first couple of pages, you generally jump on it and apply pressure.

Unvote

VOTE: mozamis

For assuming two scum. How do you know -- do you only have one scumbuddy?

[Amrun]

Just a warning that I might go on V/LA this weekend. Not yet, but this weekend.

I think I will, but I will try to post. I just can't be relied upon.

It's my 21st birthday tomorrow. Haha.

[Amrun]

Code? Are you kidding me?

Don't you see the cake next to my name?

I'm going v/la essentially but will try to post a bit. Don't you want to be notified of that?

Birthday sex > mafia games.

Find the code in that.

[Amrun]

Wow, I sure must be scum in every single game I'm in, with the exact same code! Amazing.

[Amrun]

Is that mozamis defending merensial?

[Amrun]

Yeah there's something going on there.

At least I think so.

[Amrun]

Meransial, why answer a question directed at me?

Implosion, I find that people who make lots of votes and FoS (especially in the same post) tend to be scum trying to lay suspicion trails so they can hop on opportunistic wagons and say "Oh, but I FoSed him day 2! I always thought he was suspicious."

It depends on the situation and in that case I don't think it applies but it warranted a question to verify.

[Amrun]

I think it's called Arishem tell, when you apologize for your predecessor.

Reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallly not liking MrBuddyLee. Willing to vote for him but want to see where he is so far when we get a votecount.

[Amrun]

I think Merensial is being serious.

Have we heard from ender's replacements atall?

I wanted to do a player rn down but I won't until we finally have everyone on board.

[Amrun]

Who replaced ender? Can you put it in the OP?

[Amrun]

MrBuddyLee looking a little better to me.

mozamis and meransiel looking more linked by the post.

[Amrun]

I really feel that scotsmany plays it safe, even too safe. He jumped on my wagon when it was extremely popular, and most of his posts are him either agreeing or disagreeing with somebody else's argument. In short, he's not contributing with anything, and making it appear as if he is. Or anyway, that's the impression he gave me.

First, when I voted for you, there was only one other person (truant) who was voting for you. Mozamis had the popular wagon. Not you. Second, please show where most of my posts are me either agreeing or disagreeing with somebody else's argument? A quick iso of me shows that this is in fact not the case. I fully disagree with the statement that I am not contributing with anything.

Mozamis had the popular wagon, but the popular theory was that we were scum together. In any case, not only Truant was suspicious of me, not even at that point. Also:

Petro, you change your vote way too often. I'm not suspecting you or anything, it's just a risky thing to do.

Why mention it then if you don't suspect it?

That WIFOM in Meransiel's last post only makes me more confident in my vote.

Preview Edit: Mozamis's vote on pj sucks, and is basically OMGUS.

You don't post too much, not to quote.

Also, you're tunneling on me. Badly. And your attempts to touch on the suspicion of other players seems intentionally weak. You don't

win

the game by lynching me, you know. Well, not by just that, anyway.[/quote]

Did Merensial just admit scum?

unvote

Vote: Merensial

Fixed it as much as I can work out <.< - mod

[Amrun]

Shoot, mod, can you fix the quote tags and the vote tag? Wow.

[Amrun]

I know what you were doing, but it seemed to me like a slip : it says, "I know his alignment 100%"

You're saying you know he's scum, but that level of confidence doesn't make sense at this juncture of the game.

And maybe he DOES win the game by lynching you. How would you know?

[Amrun]

Why would a lynchee be announced? That makes no sense.

Way to dodge the point.

Also your insults have been noted. Scum tactics 101.

[Amrun]

Why am I not surprised by that meta on mozamis?

p-edit: Why are you voting for pj? "His status?"

[Amrun]

Post #230 sounds a bit like coaching.

[Amrun]

Because if you think he is a town vigilante, but you are still voting for him, then you are scum.

Mostly because of this.

He asked Tuncali questions and then told him how to answer to avoid suspicion.

[Amrun]

Oatmeal chocolate chip, please.

mozamis, if you have a problem with authority, please don't take it out on us. Go shoplift a Coke and Cheetos from a 7-11, then come back and give us some answers.

Did you mean this post?

I took it as a joke, and I didn't think your pressure on mozamis lined up with coaching.

It isn't the same with Tuncali.

[Amrun]

That was coaching, but it's more like ... general advice. It all boils down to this: scumhunt. That's advice for anyone you'd get anywhere on this forum.

The other advice was so specific, so extremely specific, that it stuck out to me.

But now that you've pointed it out yourself, which I'm not sure why you'd do, also coaching super-scummy mozamis doesn't help me get a townread on you.


I actually have an insubstantial read on Tuncali at this point. Newbtown, so far, but how do you read someone so very green? I need to start seeing some actual content from him soon or he will begin to move into the "active lurking" category, though.

[Amrun]

It was just the last sentence I had a problem with. It would have seemed less "WTF just happened" if you hadn't TOLD HIM THE CORRECT ANSWER, and instead had asked questions to provoke thought.

If we're picking who he should vig, I say mozamis.

[Amrun]

At this point in the game I have no problem with it. I'd rather he kill Merensial or mozamis, but promoting activity is also good.

[Amrun]

Honestly, I think Truant's recent post has a point, but not so much some of his earlier posts on the matter.

How can he say he didn't read and then FOS someone in the same post...? That's more of what bothered me then the rest. Also, thanking the mod publicly for "not making him scum" rubbed me the wrong way. Plus his coaching.

That's what bothers me about MBL.

[Amrun]

Merensial, if no one says anything about him, it's the LEAST informative flip. That's not pro-town.

[Amrun]

Honestly, I think Truant's recent post has a point, but not so much some of his earlier posts on the matter.

How can he say he didn't read and then FOS someone in the same post...? That's more of what bothered me then the rest. Also, thanking the mod publicly for "not making him scum" rubbed me the wrong way. Plus his coaching.

That's what bothers me about MBL.

Posting on a phone from a ski trip, so please forgive any sloppiness. Your portrayal of my post history here is inaccurate, amrun. First post, close to right away after replacing in, didn't have the time for a full threadskim, cracked a joke. Second post, explained circumstances of first post, said now i've had time to fullskim, saw mozamis's fos, fosed him back.

Still don't have many specifics on why i'm "dodgy" or what's wrong/misleading about my analyses thus far. Starting to feel like lazy scum are settling for this crappy case that's better than having to invent a new case on someone.

Has ogml picked up a prod? Can ogml and blenblen be replaced if they're not active real soon? Their slots have unfairly coasted through d1.

I misread, then. I thought you said you hadn't had time to read and then FOS'ed without reading.

My apologies.


I'm not going to lie; I've been pretty distracted in this game. It's my anniversary weekend. I'm not really V/LA because I still read and try to post, but my boyfriend gets antsy if I spend too much time. He's sleeping right now. Two big weekends right in a row for me.

[Amrun]

Yes, I'd like to hear the answer to that as well.

[Amrun]

A dayvig that screws with vote mechanics? Sound pretty hax if it's true.

Sorry for inactivity. Anniversary.

[Amrun]

Welcome to the replacements.

More suspicious of BlenBlen in particular because he dropped out after taking some heat. Is iffy, though.

[Amrun]

But what made you have that read and then change it? What a copout.

[Amrun]

PJ, what about blenblen replacing out? I found that far more scummy.

[Amrun]

Pj: Yes, but didn't you say just now that OGML's flaking was likely not scummy? I was asking if BlenBlen's replacement was still scummy to you and if so, why. I assumed you dug deeper into them both?

[Amrun]

@moz: this game started at a terrible time for me, so I haven't been able to designate enough time to this game, but still, I have given more reads than you. Just because I can also do better (and plan to, starting in the next couple of days) doesn't mean you get off the hook for completely abandoning your read when pressed about it.

@PJ: okay. Sorry I didn't have time to do the research myself. I was just curious. So the replacements for those seem to be null tells.

P-edit: That's better, moz, but too little too late. Why was that so hard? And I don't remember scot doing that at all, tbh.

[Amrun]

^^ But he said some attacks were good and some were bad and some were okay.

Also, bad attacks does not always mean target is town. Some people are just bad at building cases.

[Amrun]

So, what is the point of saying that? Do you think he is saying Merensial is scum, mozamis?

[Amrun]

MBL, what was your intent? What is your read on Merensial?

[Amrun]

I meant in a very concise format instead of a wall. Walls have their place, but they also promote obfuscation. I want a one or two word read on him from you, MBL.

I have confessed several times to being unfortunately distracted in this game because of real life. I do intend to re-read everything and do that full run down within the next day or two as things are finally calming down a bit for me.

[Amrun]

Equivocating obfuscator.

[Amrun]

Lazy birthday girl.

THAT'S THREE WORDS. YOU LOSE.

I'm not lazy; I'm normally very active and such, and I haven't dropped into prod territory or anything like that, but my boyfriend finds it very rude when I troll the net/my phone for hours and don't pay full attention to him. Since I don't get to see him that much, I set mafia games somewhat to the side during those occasions (especially special occasions like our anniversary, which was this weekend).

I SHOULD have paid attention to when this game would be starting: right before back to back busy weekends. But I'm a bit silly and I saw this game and went FROGGIESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS YAYYYY and signed up immediately.

My apologies. My lack of attention to this game has been weighing on my conscience, which is why I'm bothering to explain. I will do better as soon as physically possible. Probably tomorrow I will get some sort of massive post up.

[Amrun]

I didn't say I was going to make it two words. I was asking YOU for two words for a reason.

But now that you mention it, it sounds fun. >:3

[Amrun]

I can see how that might be perceived, but my presence in this game has simply not been up to par with my usual presence in games and it annoys me according to my own personal standards.

I tend to be pretty honest and not really care how such and such looks. If I feel compelled to apologize, I'm going to.

And if I make a mistake, which I think I did make one that I can recall, why WOULDN'T I apologize? That's just RUDE, not to apologize to the player that is affected by the mistake. I recall apologizing to MBL once for this reason. That's a blanket policy I employ.

I have been far from the least contributive player, though. Far from it. You should think about that.

There is another reason I did this that I won't share just yet.

[Amrun]

Here is a blanket post where I address everyone in the order that they are on the list in the OP:

Scotmany12: Town, so far. In general, I like his posts and I don't understand the attacks on him at all. However, recently he has started to fall off the activity wagon. Not enough to be a strike against him yet, but he could move into active lurker status if nothing improves.


kunkstar7: Town, so far. I think all of the points (even the ones raised against me) he has raised are thus far logical and from a town point of view. Perhaps could use a little more activity.


Merensial: Scum, so far. She says, "Scum tend to change votes a lot" then proceeds to do just that. I don't think any one of her votes have made any sort of real sense. Her supposed scumread on scotmany is just ... There are no words. Her MBL vote is okay, I suppose, and definitely the best of the lot. Her moz vote "plan" is terrible and achieves nothing; she has been trying to cast aspersion onto pj since he claimed and it doesn't sit well with me. None of the attacks on pj make sense and just the way it is done strikes me as off. Also, when she unvoted moz, she said, "Glad you're doing better now." WHAT?!


OhGodMyLife/Apokalypta: Null. OGML's ISO 3 is good to me, but then ISO 4 is terrible and nothing improves from then on out. This slot needs to post more for me to get a proper read. Apok seems town so far, especially in ISO 2, where I didn't even realize he reflects my own read of Merensial somewhat. OGML's slight scumminess balances this out to make it a tentative null pending more content.


pj: Town. He's claimed dayvig and I'm inclined to believe the claim and that it's probably town, since the former can be proven and will inform the latter. His dayvig choices should tell us his alignment, later on, but his posts overall suggest he is town.


MBL: Null leaning town. Some parts of his posts, I like very much, like the beginning of ISO 25 about OGML. Others I think are pure obfuscation, like all the talk of defenses. Producing walls does not make you pro-town. It's what's in them that counts. For now, I think he's town, but a lot of what he says doesn't actually have that much substance, to me, and that worries me.


Tuncali: Null. I really don't know what to make of him. He has several scumtells, but he's so painfully new that I don't know what to think. However, I keep picking up on associative tells between him and MBL, so if one flips mafia, that will really affect my reads.


BlenBlen/DarkStrike: Town, so far, because of DarkStrike. His "wall-o-words" seemed to come from a townie motivation, to me, not by merit of being a wall of words, but from what he said. Also, to answer his most recent post to me: I dislike playing my hand so publicly like that, but I felt the need to address kunkstar and thought that needed to be added so it would be clear I wasn't contradicting myself later.


implosion - Null leaning town, so far. Most of his posts, especially the ones on Merensials' logic, seem town, but he needs to post more for me to get a full read on him.

Truant/CogitoEroSum - Null, leaning scum. I had a weak townread on Truant, though I didn't agree with some of his logic. CES' posts just rubs me the wrong way. His first post in the game is a totally unexplained vote. :/ He needs to post more before I get a full read, though.


mozamis: Scum. I think she's townbuddying hard with pj and POSSIBLY Merensiel but possibly scumbuddying there. The worst thing for me, thoguh, is her abandoning of her read on scotmany. When called out for it, she attacked me for not contributing instead, even though I do contribute. It's true I can do better (and will), but other players' lackings have nothing to do with hers and it's a very poor deflection tactic.


ender/nopointinactingup: Null, leaning scum. Slot content not much to speak of, but I don't like the mudslinging I see, replacing MBL's name for "MrScummyLee" in quotes and things like that.



There are my full set of reads. In general, from now on, I will put more effort into this game in an attempt to engage with it fully like I haven't been able to up until now.

[Amrun]

I am not even voting for you.

My suspicions of you rest mostly on buddying, but also your lack of reads and commitment to them.

These are just initial reads. Flips will inform them.

[Amrun]

Also, I just realized that several people I called female are not. Woops.

[Amrun]

Yeah, now that it's been addressed, I probably won't get anything good out of my ploy, but I want to wait on one or two more things, then I'll share.

Unfortunately, by talking about it, I mostly ruined it, but such is life sometimes.

p-edit: But I'm not VOTING for you, mozamis. I do find you suspicious. I'd rather see a Merensial flip at this time. You would be second choice, though.

Your play IS improving, though, and it is making me think harder. Idk.

[Amrun]

Well, realistically, there is not just one scum. So maybe look harder?

[Amrun]

And let's say MBL is lynched and he flips scum. What then?

If you tunnel that hard, you're left in the same bad position no matter the flip; you won't know where to go next, presuming you're town.

That's why I'm not sure it IS town, because scum would know what MBL would flip and after achieving a mislynch, they'd just go "woops" and no one else would know what to do with them, either. It's a way for scum to avoid giving other reads, imho.


That's another reason my read on MBL is confused atm. I also find him somewhat scummy, but it's highly unlikely he is on the same scumteam as you.

So if he flipped scum, I'd have a pretty solid townread on you, for example. The opposite isn't quite as true, though. You COULD both be town ... but then my reads would be really off and I'd be mostly back to the drawing board.

[Amrun]

I just accused nopoint of improperly tying "M&M" together, you dimwit.

Just when I decide to like your case on nopoint, you resort to insulting people.


You could JUST be insulting people, but the more I see you post, the more I think your word choices are careful. Mudslinging against moz, no matter how wrong he was, does not look good to me.

[Amrun]

He did drum up SOME sort of evidence ... eventually.

I agree that he needs to play a couple of more newbie games, since he seems to be trying to treat this game as one, but that's not a call for things like "dimwit."

[Amrun]

MBL, you think CES is scummier than no point? Since when? Did you post a case on him that I'm forgetting.

Bye mozamis.

[Amrun]

Whoa, cool ability, pj. So is mozamis dead or not?

MBL, will get back to you on CES issue when I can get to computer.

Game must be re-read in light of mozamis' conf. Status.

[Amrun]

So is mozamis dead or not?

LOL, does playing "blonde" generally work well for you in mafia games?

LOL, does being a jerk generally work well for you in mafia games?


It was a serious question. Sometimes, poison means the character lives for x amount of time before dying. Sometimes, it doesn't.

[Amrun]

Okay, reading back, MBL expressed suspicion of Truant several times, but always in a lost of other people he found suspicious.

This is his most substantial case on Truant;

I said Truant is possible scum because he was VERY sure Meransiel was scum, but then switched his vote to me for what you once again call a bad reason, and expressed "100% confidence" in that bad reason. If Meransiel comes up scum, this is damning, because it means the Truant player slot used selective application of a scumtell to move his vote from Meransiel to lock it in "100%" on a townie. This is a reasonable connection to draw, once again for future reference.

I don't think he mentions CES at all until the post I commented on previously, where he agrees with what CES has said about him but also calls him more scummy than nopoint.


Compare that to his gargantuan breakdown of nopoint's post(s).



p-edit: Mozamis is listed in the OP under "swimming with the fishies," so I guess poison is just flavor for the vig role's kills.


The "CES is more scummy" thing stood out to me because it came out of the blue, relatively speaking. MBL has been tunneling on mozamis and nopoint with a couple of scattered mentions of Truant.

Meanwhile, CES has been buddying to MBL (imho) and definitely answering questions directed to MBL about MBL's intents in posts and things like that, which had already caught my eye.


I see a definite connection between the two. I think MBL was putting his scumbuddy Truant into his scumreads but not seriously pursuing it so as not to give others ideas, and then was going to slowly turn this around to a town read - which he started to do in the post where he calls CES scummy BUT he liked what CES was saying.


If one of these two flip scum, I'm going after the other one for sure.

Any thoughts?

[Amrun]

Oh, and I forgot to mention that MBL's "case" on Truant is conditional upon Merensial flipping scum -- which, if MBL and Truant/CES are scumbuddies, they know will not happen.

[Amrun]

Oh, wow, I accidentally inserted my p-edit in the middle.

Mod, can you move that to the bottom of the post for readability?

[Amrun]

LOL, does being a jerk generally work well for you in mafia games?

I dunno, never tried it!

What you've seen vis-a-vis CES and me is a valid observation. We just got done playing a game together in which we nailed the last three scum in the last three lynches after being lynch-or-lose for a month. I have ideas about how to evaluate his alignment, and I imagine he ignores most of what I post and has ideas on how to read me.

@Amrun, how would you order {Truant/CES, nopoint, OGML/Apok} in order of most-to-least-scummiest, and why?

Also,

Oh, and I forgot to mention that MBL's "case" on Truant is conditional upon Merensial flipping scum -- which, if MBL and Truant/CES are scumbuddies, they know will not happen.

Got inside info that Meransiel's town?

Why would he ignore most of what you post...?

I don't think I buy that explanation. There's a definite connection between you two and Occam's razor tells me it's most likely because you're scum together.

As to the listing of scum, I haven't done a complete re-read of the game, which I want to, keeping in mind that mozamis is town.

HOWEVER, I'll do it, just keep in mind that the list is tentative, pending re-read:

Truant/CES, OGML/Apok, nopoint. Truant/CES for reasons outlined above, OGML/Apok for leading questions on mozamis and Merensial, nopoint for poorly constructed arguments.



As to your last question, of course not. My point was that if you and CES are the scumteam, Merensial is unlikely to be your third, precisely because of the post I quoted. I think you were planning to use the Merensial flip and other "evidence" to "clear" Truant / CES and turn around a scumread on him to a townread, thereby decreasing suspicion on you should he later flip scum. You could just go, "I should have trusted my gut impression from the beginning of the game! I second guessed myself."

[Amrun]

Meanwhile, CES has been buddying to MBL (imho) and definitely answering questions directed to MBL about MBL's intents in posts and things like that, which had already caught my eye.

How is this supposed to support MBL-CES exactly?

You answering for him?

The way you answered, you were explaining MBL's "intents" in ways that made him appear BETTER, and not WORSE. Of course a scumbuddy wants his partner to appear better to the town.


VOTE: MrBuddylee

Will be willing to vote for him or CES. It doesn't really matter which one goes first, I suppose.

[Amrun]

The question was about both. Buddying tends to be scum on town.

Do you think my explanations were accurate? Do you think MBL could've given those explanations himself? Do you think scum would tend to link themselves to their partner like that?

Good point. If only one of you is scum, you're more likely to be it.

Unvote

VOTE: CES

In some cases, I think they were accurate, but you shouldn't be speaking for others. He definitely could have given those explanations himself.

And I think they do, sometimes, yes.



@MBL: Well, I seem to have misunderstood your point about Merensial, but that doesn't change my overall point about the link between you two. And the link between mozamis and Merensial was much more tenuous, and even so, being wrong once does not mean I will be wrong every time. That's poor logic.

[Amrun]

No, that was NOT my scumlist. Re-read. MBL asked me to list those three particular people in order of scumminess, and I did so. That was not my overall scumlist but a direct response to MBL's question.


As the latter part, I wanted to see his reaction first. His reaction solidified my opinion.

Then I thought about it more and decided CES is scummier as a whole, whereas MBL's scumminess is partially dependent on CES being scum, so it makes much more sense to lynch CES first.

[Amrun]

Tunneling was not a good word to use. I meant focusing your attention on.

[Amrun]

Wow, MBL. That attack is poor.

I didn't have any problem with your focus on mozamis and nopoint -- UNTIL you said Truan/CES was scummier than them. Truant attacked you just as vehemently as those 2, yet you make a big case on nopoint while Truant/CES remains a higher scumread? THAT'4 what makes no sense to me and made me suspicious.

And what does it matter what I thought of Truant? This has nothing to do with my reads, only yours. I'm trying to evaluate the validity and cobsistency of your suspicions. For this, my reads on the people you suspect are irrelevant.

[Amrun]

Bad attacks => target is town.

If I had to pick one CES post I disagreed with the most, it would be this. I think it happens quite often that town picks up things on scum but doesn't know how to articulate it; scum do this, too, but saying that if it's a bad attack the target is town is a complete fallacy.



But CES caught my eye ever since his very first post ... which was a vote with ZERO backing. Just a vote.

None of his votes have had backing, which is the main reason I had him at "null leaning scum" in the first place.


These things made me pay more attention to him, and after I decided to closely examine you two together, I noticed that his votes are actually just sheeps off of your posts, which strengthens the connection between you two in my mind. The trick of him not explaining, thereby not confirming that they are sheeps off of you, strengthens that as well.



The other post you pointed out, MBL, was a bit too reckless. That's why I changed my vote to CES, who is more likely to be scum overall, regardless of your alignment.

Let's say that CES is scum and that you are town, MBL. He could easily be town-buddying and relying on your lingering trust from the last game to get a townread from you. I can see that scenario.

After I re-evaluated from that perspective, I decided I definitely prefer a CES lynch.

@CES: Why did you vote for nopoint for your very first post in the game with no explanation? Why then switch to mozamis?

[Amrun]

I quoted the whole post. I didn't strip it of context. I can't quote all the posts around it; that would be far too long and pointless.

My vote switch actually wasn't a result of your questioning, but your post where you looked scummier to me did seal the deal.

But WHY did you think they were scum?

[Amrun]

The question was about both. Buddying tends to be scum on town.

Do you think my explanations were accurate? Do you think MBL could've given those explanations himself? Do you think scum would tend to link themselves to their partner like that?

This is the post I meant. WIFOM ahoy.


And I read the other post in context and still disagreed.


As for "being too lazy," if you think that helps me reverse my scumread on you, you'd be wrong.

[Amrun]

Yes, I do.

It's not always scummy to present simplifications, but in this case, I found it to be so, especially since I disagreed with the simplification itself.

[Amrun]

I don't know what you mean by that question.

[Amrun]

Pj: I simply had never seen such a role before. Since then, I've already seen it again, which showed me my surprise was unwarranted. Overall, the comment was just to say "that's cool," ie totally not important at all.

MBL: I still have to re-read, but I promise to answer this question asap.

[Amrun]

kunkstar, you retracted your statement, so why have you not retracted your vote?

Merensial re-read post up soon... Been busy.

[Amrun]

No, it's actually nothing but common sense. If you are scum, thus, knowing who is innocent and who isn't, you don't go around accusing people of coaching "obvscums", especially since you KNOW said obscums are going to die and flip town.

Hence, I stand on my belief that Amrun is town. Do with that as you wish.

Okay. I have done a re-skim and an ISO of Merensial, and I think he's town.

The quoted post is one of the reasons I think so, because I don't see scum trying to clear someone as town in that fashion.


I thought this would be more complicated, since I had a scumread on him earlier in the day, but in the end, it was quite simple.

[Amrun]

Okay, kunkstar. Explain it, then, because that was the only reason you gave and it was based on an outright falsehood, which you admitted.

[Amrun]

Still waiting on answer to my question to kunkstar.

[Amrun]

It was precisely because MBL was the more popular wagon, though not for the reason you think.

At the time, I was thinking that I wanted to see a flip from one of them and it didn't matter which one.

But I was thinking about it afterwards and realized that was a rash decision and CES, being the scummier of the two, deserved my vote more. So I put it there instead.

But okay. Just wanted your reasons.

[Amrun]

Fair question.

[Amrun]

Replacements for who?

[Amrun]

Fair warning to the game, I'm ill and just started some strange concoction the doctors gave me that is making me loopy as fuck. I may not be able to evaluate my own incoherency for the next couple of days; feel free to point out if I say something completely out there as I might actually be in space at the time.

[Amrun]

Pay attention to see if you find a link between Truant/Cogito Ergo Sum and Mr. Buddy Lee.

[Amrun]

Well, with nopoint, I'm still stuck at "dumb or scum?" His attacks on you were MOSTLY bad and certainly he was aggressively tunneling. However, tunneling is usually town, though not always, and my relative scumread on you, MBL, makes me lean town on nopoint at the moment.

Would be willing to vote at deadline, but I'd much prefer a CES lynch today.

[Amrun]

iam, where are you?

[Amrun]

Post #31: Right, this was the first thing that seemed off about Amrun first time round. It feels like she was trying to cast bogus suspicion on Truant, then got scared when someone shone a light on her and tried to clumsily back away from it.

Absolutely ridiculous. In many cases, people FoSing and voting for different people in the same post CAN be a scumtell I use, because scum is trying to lay seeds of suspicion that can be drawn upon later. However, Truant's double vote was like an RVS vote then a serious vote, which I still think was very silly but not a scumtell. I asked him why he voted that way, but when he answered, this was the conclusion I came to. Is asking questions casting suspicion now?

Post #65: This post from Meransial is more suspicious, for much the same reasons as the Amrun one above. Saying some behaviour is suspicious in general, but not in this particular instance, with no real reason why the instance in question is unique.

Saying what Merensial did is the "same as what I did" is totally ridiculous for reasons stated above.

Post #82: On the other hand, this kind of looks like a scum slip. Truant accuses him of, among other things, "defending a scum-lurker-buddy", and Meransial says "he is flaking, not lurking". So he's totally not denying the 'defending a scum-buddy' part.

This is a particularly good catch. I didn't notice that. However, it's not enough to sway my townread on Merensial.

Post #203: This one is interesting. Amrun misinterprets Meransial's comment as being a scum slip, instead of the more obvious and correct reading. This may indicate prior knowledge of scot's alignment on her part, because it's a weird leap to make without it.

I have read and re-read the post you're referring to and I don't see how it implies prior indication of scot's alignment at all.

Post #301: Pretty much comes across as sour grapes to me. Amrun knows that PJ is above suspicion at this point, but she sure ain't happy about it.

Excuse me? Sour grapes? I'm going to ahead and call this mudslinging. This is a RIDICULOUS accusation. I think pj's role is very cool and I love it. Dayflips are awesome. On the other site I play on, they're a lot more frequent and I enjoy them a lot. I'm just a little jealous of him.

Also, the MBL thing is a huge stretch and definitely putting words in my mouth.



Overall, I disagree with a lot of the points made on ME, as I've outlined above. Some of them are okay, and most of the points made on other players are okay as well. I liked his points about Merensial and Tuncali the most.

[Amrun]

We need to step it up in this game. I don't reallyy have anything to add that I haven't said, since much of what I recently said hasn't een responded to.

[Amrun]

Shouldn't thhat be 2 for Apok, mod?


I still like my CES vote but will vote for iamusername to achieve a lynch.

[Amrun]

MBL, what is there to clarify? I'm still null leaning town on the nopoint slot, but if that's the only wagon with support at deadline, I'd prefer that to no lynch.

No lynch is like a freebie for scum. Why would I ever support no lynch?

[Amrun]

^Apok. Wish CES was an option, though.

[Amrun]

Deadline is in less than a week.

Let's say that you claim, we all decide that we believe your claim and want to move to a better wagon.

Are you going to leave us like 3 days to assemble a proper wagon? What if they claim too?


iam looking a little scummy to me now.

[Amrun]

Well, that's good news, at least. Replacements are always to be avoided if possible.

Content, Merensial, and uh ... a lot of people?

[Amrun]

Okay, so who are your top scum reads, Bella?

[Amrun]

Also, do you cponsider having few logical fallacie a towntell?

[Amrun]

Sorry for the horrendous phone typoes lately.

So, if logic isn't a towntell, why is that the only reason you give for MBL being town, Bella?

[Amrun]

I'm not saying he's being illogical. In most, but not all cases, I see his logic. My point is that doesn't mean he's town. Bella just said logic isn't a towntell, but her ONLY reason for MBL being town is that he's logical.

I've said several times that I think he's being long-winded on purpose to obfuscate his point and make it look more impressive than it actually is, shown again by his point-blank refusal to condense it upon request. I also think he's trying to lead the town, but that doesn't make him town either; that's a null. Another scumminess point is the way he tries to undermine the validity of others' play through insults. And, of course, his connection with CES.

But obviously, there's a reason I want CES lynched first. He's far scummier.

[Amrun]

VOTE: Apok

My vote on CES is doing no good.

[Amrun]

I don't have anything against long-windedness in and of itself, but in this case I think it is doing more bad than good -- and I think that's on purpose. Just to be clear.

[Amrun]

I doubt he refuses to comply when someone asks him for succint summaries in the way he has, but I will check out his meta overnight.

[Amrun]

and iam isn't in danger? he's at l-1.

[Amrun]

If he IS a PR and we're going to kill him, he should claim. Obviously. It sucks, but at least the scum would have to waste an NK on him at the very least.

[Amrun]

If we lynch an unclaimed pr, the mafia is more likely to hit another pr at night. No good all around.

[Amrun]

@MBL: I also addresse iam's posts.

As for CES, I am observing him carefully. I will ask him more questions when I deem fit. Once it was obvious the wagon would not be backed up, I decided to look harder at the two viable candidates instead. Also kind of "meh" on this game as a whole...

[Amrun]

Why Bella, Merensial?

[Amrun]

Why not... If you guys are unconfirmed it's like a WIFOM-fest. Not like regular masons... Why did you just role reveal for no reason?

[Amrun]

Yeah. You just ruled out minimum 2, maximum 1 people as non "important" PRs, narrowing the field for PR-huntig scum... I don't see any town motivation for that at all.

And you haven't even had time to talk to her yet! Couldn't you use gameplay instead of outguess the mod to determione her alignment?

Merensial just pissed on the townread I had on her.

[Amrun]

Also obvious attempt to derail banmdwagon is obvious.

[Amrun]

No, because iam is about to die anyway. Huge difference.

That is the most suboptimal play...

I need to go sit in a corner and wish this didn't happen for awhile.

[Amrun]

Before I do that:

VOTE: merensial

[Amrun]

Also because she seems way too sure iam will fllip town.

[Amrun]

Exactly. I think the scum already know, but Merensial put it out there to try and get Bella lynched.

Not sure yet, of course, but that was my gut reaction.

[Amrun]

I already pointed that out.

[Amrun]

Because I didn't want to hammer iam before everyone weighed in on this.

[Amrun]

Overeager to hammer? Excuse me?

[Amrun]

What exact time is deadline?

[Amrun]

A full towncase on iam, you mean?

A full case on someone I find null leaning town? Why would you want that, MBL?

My reservations on the lynch have mostly evaporated after Merensial's little "let's lynch Bella instead" stunt.

It really seemed like a protection of iam.

However, I still have some lingering town feelings on iam's replace in post... I don't see why any town member would refuse to claim like that.

I am not feeling the most confident about this lynch, but certainly my doubts are not high enough to refuse to hammer and force a no lynch.

If I am needed to hammer to achieve a lynch, I will. I am not sure why a certain scum read is requirted for this.

[Amrun]

CES, who are your suspects, including iam/no point, and why?

[Amrun]

CES, I asked now because several things have happened in the game, and "self evident" is not an appropriate response.

MBL, I moved my vote to Merensial because he was being scummy as fuck. Apok was never my #2 scumread, only a better alternative than the iam wagon. Nice try at misrep, though.

[Amrun]

What you're missing is that the Merensial issue made me look at iam again.

The minute he did what he did, the iam wagon become better than the Apok wagon. It was already headed there with the extended refusal of claim / lack of content at L-1.

You're expecting my thoughts at one point in the game to be the same as later in the game after significant happenings, like a claim.

Partially because of iam's actions and partially because of Merensial's, the iam wagon is better than the apok wagon. Neither of these wagons are the wagon I'd prefer (CES) but that wagon is not viable atm.

That being said, it looks like I'll have to hammer.

Let me know when we're all ready.

[Amrun]

I like to see my scumreads especially explain their reads in their own words. Your refusal is actively hindering my ability to further my read of you one way or another. I don't see any town motivation in that.

[Amrun]

VOTE: kunkstar

If CES is lying, 1 for 1 is still good.

[Amrun]

I thought CES was implying role information. Seemed pretty clear to me. If he wants to retract that implication and explain that it isn't BEFORE the flip, it won't be tit for tat. I do encourage him to do so if this is the case.

Pj, do you plan to shoot your own target or the lynch target so we can waste our day less? Just curious.

[Amrun]

I hope this means another scum caught. Apok, where are you?

[Amrun]

Uh, why are you so quick to believe him...?

I assumed CES was a tracker, which would mean he tracked Apok last night, which would mean Apok is lying.

However, that could be an incorrect assumption. I've been waiting around for CES to clear it up.

[Amrun]

Because you asked for a claim before voting kunkstar. It's not the only explanation. That's just what I sort of thought.

[Amrun]

I double that FoS on Merensial. He believed Apok's claim way too easily, like he already knew Apok was town.

Awaiting a vote count to confirm Apok's ability.

[Amrun]

VOTE: mrbuddylee

[Amrun]

No, I can vote twice for the same person if I want.

Also, my scotmany vote is not arbitrary. Yesterday, he popped in to say he had no problem with kunk claiming, but never voted him. Scumalicious.

This is actually a really good point.

[Amrun]

A) I thought CES was saying he had results on you.

B) I am still suspicious of you.

Since CES doesn't have role results on you, it is time to change.

VOTE: Merensial

Implied foreknowledge of Apok's alignment.

[Amrun]

My current suspect list (in order):

1. Merensiel
2. Scotmany (for not voting kunk yesterday and lack of content recently)
3. Bella (lack of content)
4. MBL- Lingering gut, mostly. Earlier vote was due to misunderstanding.

[Amrun]

Scot, I didn't ignore it. It's just a "take my word for it" thing, which I can't trust. It's not the sole reason to suspect you anyway.

[Amrun]

lol.

VOTE: scotmany12

[Amrun]

I actually missed that post somehow, but I was voting for you for your guilty conscience.

You might as well fullclaim now that you've put your toe in the water.

[Amrun]

I read the page but I somehow missed that important little detail. Speedreading as it is finals week.

VOTE: Merensial

Back there, then.

I've thought about it and no, don't claim.

[Amrun]

What do you mean, where I misread and missed his claim? CES did the same thing. If you find that scummy, so be it.

[Amrun]

I'd lke to see top suspects from everyone, actually, top 2-3.

Mine are Merensial, MBL, and Bella, at this precise moment.

[Amrun]

I remember liking his d1 posting, but this stalling is annnoying.

[Amrun]

If bella always plays this way, how does that make her town?

[Amrun]

Oh, I see. That makes sense.

[Amrun]

My scum games are in my wiki.

I do have some newer town games I haven't added yet.

[Amrun]

What does that mean?

[Amrun]

He's presumably referencing the fact that you survived and won all 3 of your scum games.

Well I thought he meant because I got nominated for a scummy for my scum play.

I just wanted to clarify.

I am much better as scum, which is kind of depressing x.x

[Amrun]

We didn't have a n0 on this game, did we? Even so, I meant that we hadn't had a proper night yet.

I have been trying to scumhunt... That leads to accusing people.

Bella slot has been hard to read because it NEVER POSTS. Nevertheless, I have a town read on it, especially since I suspect Merensiel currently.

My schedule is going to clear up soonish and I plan to do some ISOs soon and report my findings.

[Amrun]

So is this your way of convincing us to lynch Bella?

[Amrun]

I am not advocating a Bella lynch, so I do not understand.

I find you scummy so I want to lynch you.

[Amrun]

I read it again, and I think you are trying to say that "if I was scum, I would not have pushed for a Bella lynch."

That's a crappy defense, and stated in a convoluted manner at that.

I never listen to "I wouldn't have as scum.". Such WIFOM.

As I said, MBL, in the next couple of days I am going to do ISOs, build cases on my suspects, etc.

But not today. Today, I am travelling.

[Amrun]

MBL, what do you mean? You all can't see into my head and I have to express myself clearly. I am too busy and scatterbrained (and on my phone) to express myself correctly and clearlly now, but I'll give it a go when I can.

I have already said that much f my suspicion of Merensiel relies on her having seeming foreknowledge of people's alignments (like Apok's).

[Amrun]

My thoughts on Amrun, who's probably the excellent scum who's messing with all of our reads in this game. Her reasons for voting are consistently overmanufactured and stretch belief. Way heavy on the cliche scumslips:

• Amrun voted Mozamis for assuming two scum.
  
• Claimed to suspect MBL for the "Arishem scumtell".
  
• Voted Meransiel for an alleged scumslip.
  
• Accused MBL of coaching Tuncali.
  
• Said I was scum for thanking Shanba for not making me scum.
  
• Suspected BlenBlen for replacing out after being attacked.
  
• "I keep picking up on associative tells between Tuncali and MBL, so if one flips mafia, that will really affect my reads."
  
• Called nopoint/iam scum for "mudslinging".
  
• Accuses MBL of being scum for mudslinging against mozamis.
  
• Said CES and MBL were scum for blatant buddying
  
• Said scot was scum for not voting kunkstar fast enough.
  
• Voted Meransiel for implying foreknowledge of Apok's alignment.

All of these are valid reasons to think people are scum, though you have phrased several of them in ways to make them look ridiculous, like "said scot was scum for not voting kunkstar fast enough," which is just silly.

As for not going as in depth in my reads as I should, well ... yes. I have and will freely admit to that which is why I have promised to do that very thing in the next couple of days. For whatever reason, things keep interfering with my attention span in this game.

I'm working on it, but a couple of other games are higher priority right at this second.

[Amrun]

My thoughts on Amrun, who's probably the excellent scum who's messing with all of our reads in this game. Her reasons for voting are consistently overmanufactured and stretch belief. Way heavy on the cliche scumslips:

• Amrun voted Mozamis for assuming two scum.
  
• Claimed to suspect MBL for the "Arishem scumtell".
  
• Voted Meransiel for an alleged scumslip.
  
• Accused MBL of coaching Tuncali.
  
• Said I was scum for thanking Shanba for not making me scum.
  
• Suspected BlenBlen for replacing out after being attacked.
  
• "I keep picking up on associative tells between Tuncali and MBL, so if one flips mafia, that will really affect my reads."
  
• Called nopoint/iam scum for "mudslinging".
  
• Accuses MBL of being scum for mudslinging against mozamis.
  
• Said CES and MBL were scum for blatant buddying
  
• Said scot was scum for not voting kunkstar fast enough.
  
• Voted Meransiel for implying foreknowledge of Apok's alignment.

All of these are valid reasons to think people are scum, though you have phrased several of them in ways to make them look ridiculous, like "said scot was scum for not voting kunkstar fast enough," which is just silly.

As for not going as in depth in my reads as I should, well ... yes. I have and will freely admit to that which is why I have promised to do that very thing in the next couple of days. For whatever reason, things keep interfering with my attention span this game.

I'm working on it, but a couple of other games are higher priority right at this second.

I think my PoE is narrowing down a bit from the work I have done so far on this game (though I am going to finish it all before posting).

[Amrun]

Hahahaha. No.

I've just been really busy. I just spent the last week intransition from a move.

Finally more settled. Did a re-read and catch up in another game. This one's up next.

[Amrun]

Okay, I hope to do some more extensive things, but I have re-read the whole game and here is my list of reads:

Town:

CES
Apokalypta
scotmany12
Bella
implosion
MrBuddyLee
Merensiel


Going to put up some thoughts on these in a bit, but just wanted to get my list out there.

[Amrun]

Town:

CES
Apokalypta
scotmany12

Bella
implosion
MrBuddyLee
Merensiel

I forgot to say that my list goes from town to scum, but it should be obvious.

The bolded three are unequivocably town.

CES is obvtown tracker. Apokalypta is now confirmed to be able to put two votes on the same person, and I don't think that would be a scum ability. scotmany12 is town and he knows why and I know why.

The remaining scum(s) must necessarily come from the remaining 4 on the list.

Bella... Is really only town by virtue of PoE since I don't think both of the neighbors are scum and I DO think Merensiel is scum. Without PoE, I don't really have any read at all from her because she never posts. I think one of the neighbors is scum, so if by some miracle I am wrong about Merensiel, Bella is probably scum, but this is subject to re-evaluation upon slot content.

implosion: His overall posts seem townish. I was a little concerned with his stalling lately, but he's posting now so it seems legit. Still, by virtue of PoE, if I am wrong about MBL, implosion is scum.

MBL and Merensiel thoughts will be in next post.

[Amrun]

Ugh, guys, I fell asleep last night with my MBL case sitting open on my screen and the computer restarted and I lost it all.

Will re-compose but am annoyed.

Welcome, Oman.

[Amrun]

I was going in order, bottom to top.

I am buckling down to re-work on it now... Ugh. I hate re-doing things.

[Amrun]

I read my predecessor's post history and he looks like a total douchebag and obvious scum.

Hi, I'm replacing Magnetic. I replaced in because PJ asked me to and because Shanba is totally Shibby. Let's catch us some scum.

This is MBL's first post in the game. It struck me off as then and it still bothers me. It's obviously not a real Amished scumtell, but why do it at all? I don't really see a town motivation in it. Not a big thing, though, in the end.

...
I'll read the game more carefully tomorrow--I believe I have lots of free time to waste. Thank you, Shanba, for not making me scum. I look forward to nailing a few of these young Turks to the wall before summer dawns. Ribbit.

Trimmed out most of this post since this is what I wanted to comment on. It's all sorts of "I'm sooo town, townie mctownerson" and it seems so forced to me. The jokes aren't funny, and are racist and offensive (unrelated question: are you Greek, German, or Australian, or just parroting other cultures?), so why make them if not to plant seeds of towniness in people's minds for no real gameplay reason?

OGML's calling calling out of moz and Meriansel reads really weak to me.
@OGML you keep trying to get everyone to look at these two players, comment on them, and even have your vote on them, but you don't express any reason to do so (even if its just gut). What gives?

This is probably the best post in the game thus far. I spotted OGML's weaksauce on my third readthrough and was going to post about it when I came across kunk's good find.

Basically, OGML threw what's known as "slushy snowballs" in the vernacular. Nonspecific attacks, loosely packed, looks to town to do the dirty work to drum up evidence. Note that OGML doesn't give his own opinion on those two players, but demands specifics from others:

Unvote, Vote: moz

@scotmany, what are you thoughts on moz? What do you make of moz and meransiel's interactions?

@blenblen, you have completely ignored moz and meransiel despite the fact that there was serious attention being paid to them by pretty much every active player. Why? Tell me what you think of each of them: scummy, or towny?

doesn't this just seem really.. obvious? I mean. So obvious. Moz and meransiel. Everyone weigh in on them. Is there something funky going on here or what?

vote: OGML

Pretty self-explanatory: obvious buddying with confscum kunkstar to team up on suspicion of most-likely-town slot OGML/Apokalypta/Oman (if I've got my replacements correct). Scum team pushing a mislynch? I think if this was the case, it was a fairly safe time for an MBL/kunkstar scumpair to do so; both but kunkstar especially were looking town to most.

My gift to lazymod:

Truant

(Mafia Bullfrog, croaked day one)

OhGodMyLife

(Mafia Poison Dart Frog, touched himself day two)

mozamis

(Mafia Non-lickable Toad, torn apart by gang of pelicans day three)

nopointinactingup

ender241

Meransiel
Tuncali
BlenBlen
Amrun
scotmany12
petroleumjelly
kunkstar7
implosion
MrBuddyLee

Magnetic

Includes another joke, this time a list calling one conftown and two probtown slots scum while subtly embedding the idea that he is town by putting himself at the bottom. kunkstar is also near the bottom here. Just noting.

Surely you must see BuddyLee's obfuscation and waffle for what is it, scum trying to confuse everyone. Note how he keeps trying to get people to name their other suspects. Deflects from him.
Hence why, for the time being I am not going to say whe else I find suspicious, until we lynch Buddy. Unless he/someone else does a really good job of persuading me he is town.

Haha, yeah, when I play mafia as town I usually ask people to name their favorite colors and astrological signs because I don't want to obfuscate and waffle shit up with people's suspects.

mozamis pushed against MBL hard, and we can now trust his suspicions. MBL pushed against mozamis hard in return. We know what happened there. I just wanted to note this quote that is MBL saying he doesn't obfuscate as town after 200 obfuscating walls. Mostly a note for the future though. Like when I asked him to condense one of his walls for a specific purpose and his response was...

I want a one or two word read on him from you, MBL.

Bacon cheeseburger.

So helpful. So NOT obfuscating. Yeah. Did MBL just call himself scum? I think so.

I'm not hammering you any time soon, mozamis. But there's no way you can persuade me (or anyone else) that you're town when your one and only suspect is MBLtown.

Just another portion of a quote to show that once again, MBL does his best to put it in people's minds that he's town for no good reason. He goes on to say mozamis is scum because she suspects him, which is a pitiful case that I have no idea why I did not address at the time.

kunkstar, what do you think of Apok? I have about the same thoughts on nopoint as you do--almost too reckless to be scum. Played terribly if he's town. Left the site, apparently only abandoning this game, when mozamis came up town.

More buddying behavior with kunkstar. There has to be something wrong with your scumdar if you always agree with scum - unless you are scum, of course.

I think looking at interactions with kunk are probably the way to go today, unless you feel he was a master of subtlety.

After literally agreeing with everything kunkstar ever said before this, MBL analyzes kunk a little after the flip and then says this. He apparently didn't ping your scumdar once and you agreed with him on several things, but he's obvious scum now- by implying he WASN'T a master of subtlety? This reads to me as "let's hope no one remembers how I buddied him." And then MBL NEVER followed this up. MBL never used kunkstar analysis for anything useful and then Kunkstar and his interactions were never mentioned again.

Meransiel bothers me with a lot of his little details, but I got a town vibe first half of yesterday despite nagging little things.

As far as I can tell, MBL actually FoSed Merensiel during the first half of yesterday.

All of these are valid reasons to think people are scum, though you have phrased several of them in ways to make them look ridiculous, like "said scot was scum for not voting kunkstar fast enough," which is just silly.

As I said, you don't believe they ARE good reasons, because you only stick with the most recent one or two and jettison the old ones.

My current suspect list (in order):

1. Merensiel (implied foreknowledge of Apok's alignment)
2. Scotmany (for not voting kunk yesterday and lack of content recently)
3. Bella (lack of content)
4. MBL- Lingering gut, mostly. Earlier vote was due to misunderstanding.

I don't think my observation about your scot suspicions was "silly". scot approved of CES's poke at kunk, then went to Easter dinner. You cast your vote 9 hours later. kunkstar hammered himself a few hours later. So basically, you voted scot for not being around between 6pm and 9pm on Easter evening. Well thought out.

Meanwhile, you placed the L-1 on kunkstar even though CES, your #1 suspect from the previous day, was the one accusing kunkstar.

Bzzt. You're scum.

Finally getting around to responding to this.

Yeah, CES was my top suspect ... until he OBVIOUSLY HAD ROLE INFORMATION THAT KUNKSTAR WAS SCUM. I even clarified before the flip and he admitted this was so. It was a win-win for me; if CES was truly the PR he was implying he was, then we had caught scum in kunkstar; if not, then we would likely lynch CES tomorrow, since I don't see a motivation to lie as town.

I am certainly willing to re-visit my reads in light of new information. I'm not constipated like that.

It'd be one thing if CES just built a case on kunkstar. I most certainly would not have listened. But to say he had role information that condemned kunkstar? That's another thing altogether.


In conclusion:

-MBL tries to work it into the town's subconscious that he is town, and I see no town motivation for this.
-MBL willingly obfuscated what he was trying to say after admitting that doing such a thing was scummy and he didn't do it as town.
-MBL buddied with kunkstar and only reversed after the flip, saying we should analyze interactions with kunkstar but dropping that completely.


Still, sometimes MBL asked some good, clear questions, and that is what earns him the place below Merensiel for today.

I'm tired so I might have to do Merensiel tomorrow. Sorry.

[Amrun]

I actually woke from a dead sleep because I forgot to post something important about MBL.

I really dislike the way he's using my meta. It's one thing to say "so and so tends to do this more as scum than as town" but to say, "Amrun has a good scum record, so she should be scrutinized" iis doing the opposite of what he was trying to do with himself, painting himself as town. Instead, he's planting the idea that I'm scum for no valid reason. A case of sorts followed, but it felt like it was contrived after he realized he could use my good record as scum as a tool to mislynch me. Not too long ago, he had cleared me as town, iirc.

I wonder if I was dreaming about this game.

[Amrun]

Well, the dictionary is racist, once again, which makes my stomach turn.

And I'd be happy to go shopping with your girlfriend.

Nice catch with kunkstar defending MBL, Oman. Makes their connection stronger.

[Amrun]

>.>. Sorry, but using Turk as an insult really hits close to home for me. I retract blame from MBL, though.

[Amrun]

It isn't that you agreed with him at all; i pointed out the agreements to show the flip-flop after the flip and also because you ONLY ever agreed with him while he was alive, then all of a sudden after he was dead it was a different story.

About the Turk thing, it's not relevant, but I suppose it's not as much of an insult as I first presumed. But equating Turks to insurgents is neither a compliment or an insult without context, and in the joke, you said you were nailing the to the wall. Like I said, I am just a little touchy about this issue. I wasn't actually upset, but it was a matter of personal interest.

[Amrun]

Point out where you criticized him because I probably read your ISO 4 times and did not see that. But then again, the walls were bleeding. >.>

Oman, I knew MBL could take my question in good spirit. I was sincerely wondereing if he was Greek.

[Amrun]

Those are questions to kunkstar. They were never followed up on. No conclusions were ever drawn.

To call those evidence of suspicion is a huge stretch.

And yes, I did analyze those things. I answered them to myself in varying ways, none of them strong enough that I felt warranted being part of the post. Some of them I did post, but perhaps not as directly as you'd like. Let me try again.

1. Yes, I do think so, on this. But then again, I thought the same thing about kunkstar.
2. Like scum with mozamis, which I attempted to point out in my wall. Null for nopoint, because you basically destroyed his logic, which was terrible, and which you could have done as either alignment and had motivation to do so as either alignment.
3. Yes, on this. This gave me a little pause, actually. It is one of the reasons you did not get bumped up to above Merensiel. It could still be faked by good scum, which I believe you are.
4. You are trying to mislead us. I thought I made that clear. You used my meta to plant the idea of me as scum in people's minds before presenting a case and I think this was an obvious attempt to mislead the town.

[Amrun]

The response to that post is near the end of my wall on MBL.

Merensiel post before I sleep tonight or die trying! I promise.

[Amrun]

What about the other post I addressed to you, answering your questions, MBL?

[Amrun]

Overall, yes, though I was more referring to where you broke down nopoint's posts.

[Amrun]

So if Merensiel and implosion is the most likely scum team, according to you, then why aren't you voting either of them?

[Amrun]

Yes, I suppose.

Sorry on the delay for Merensiel case. I've been very busy starting a small business with my father and I was run up to L-1 and forced to claim in a highly public game, which was embarrassing and took all of my mafia energy.

It will happen, and very soon (tonight).

[Amrun]

That's 4 potential votes for implosion. It's 5 to lynch, correct?

Bella needs to post here so badly.

[Amrun]

CES, implosion: would you switch to Merensiel to achieve a lynch?

Merensiel, Oman: would you switch to MBL to achieve a lynch?

Oman, mind laying down your votes somewhere?

[Amrun]

So Amrun, you're psyched on lynching any of implosion, Meransiel, MBL?

Yeah basically. Prefer Merensiel, but that doesn't seem to be happening.

VOTE: MBL

Bye, scum.

[Amrun]

Case will be made. That's entirely my fault as I never got around to it.

The voting with him thing... Yes, I did, because it was literally the ONLY way to achieve a lynch.

It's already supposed to be past deadline. Think I'm going to wait around for Oman to maybe vote? We can't afford to.

[Amrun]

What do you mean? I did want Merensiel lynched. You were leading in votes, 4 to 3, and you happen to be my 2nd suspect.

Last night, I asked Oman to put his votes down, preferably on Merensiel. He didn't oblige and by the time I posted it was already past deadline.

I could have no lynched, and I would have had it been someone else besides you or implosion.

At deadline, I didn't see Merensiel switching at the last minute as a reason to stay off the wagon. If I'm right about yu, she could easily be bussing. If I'm wrong about you, then she's definitely scum. If you do happen to turn up town, that is the final nail in Merensiel's coffin as far as I'm concerned. She should have been dead today but that's partially my fault since I couldn't ever get my case up on her. I tried a couple of times, but my computer now restarts every 5 minutes and I do 95% of my posting from my phone and I got discouraged.

[Amrun]

VOTE: Merensiel

I think everyone basically agrees that one of the neighbors has to be scum for balance reasons.

Merensiel's opportunistic vote yesterday was terrible. She never expressed suspicion of anyone: in fact, she openly admits to having no suspects. But still, she made it so MBL was the only viable wagon over her own.

She thinks Bella is scum but hasn't pushed for her lynch in any significant way.

I also think she has had foreknowledge of people's alignments. It's thrown me off a couple of times. She cleared me as town in one of the early days, which gave me pause and reversed my scumread on her for awhile, but it's a trend. I didn't think scum would "clear" someone as town for what I thought wasn't that convincing of a reason (even though it was me). However, this is a trend. She looks like she knows certain people are town. She believed Apok's claim IMMEDIATELY, without thinking about it at all or waiting for a test, and it made me think twice.

Why is it that Merensiel knows who is town and yet has no clue who is scum, poor lil newbie Merensiel with no reads? Because Merensiel is scum that does not know how to fake scumhunting.

He made that "I'm a neighbor, so Bella must be scum!" move so early, and I couldn't figure out why. Now I know. If Merensiel truly believed Bella was scum, he would want Bella lynched. He doesn't, because once Bella is lynched, it will be obvious who in the pair is scum and it will be Merensiel's turn for a lynch (assuming I am right). He outed the neighborhood early on to show some sort of scumhunting effort, and has been woefully unable to do anything else.

[Amrun]

Merensiel claimed on day 1.

[Amrun]

And don't forget you have two votes.

[Amrun]

I'm a messenger. I can send messages to anyone at any time.

I haven't used my ability much at all because I wasn't sure how to best utilize it.

I did talk to scotmany. I sent him a message yesterday during the day because I thought he was the doctor but didn't want to say it in thread. I was HOPING scum wouldn't pick up on it... I guess they did. I sent him another message tonight saying he should protect one of CES or Oman and the pros/cons imo.

I was wrong about him being a doctor, but he made references to receiving my message yesterday (as did I).

The messages go through the mod. I can send each and every one of you a message, if I want.

I didn't use it a lot because there's not much I want to say to anyone that I couldn't say in thread.

It's a pretty cool power, though.

[Amrun]

I'll PM it to Shanba, so whenever she sends it to you, you'll get it.

[Amrun]

He. >.>

P-edit: if Bella is the scumbuddy, convince me.

Of course, the scumteam is you and Merensiel, so you would love to say it was me and Bella.

And CES, do say all your tracking results, especially tonight.

P-edit 2: You and Merensiel.

[Amrun]

If Bella is the scum neighbor, CONVINCE ME.

I've been thinking, and it's possible.

She didn't push your lynch after you revealed and used it as a towntell, and she was pissed about the reveal...

Perhaps it was because if you flipped, you would flip town and she would be lynched next?

This is why I wanted you lynched yesterday so it wouldn't be such a dire situation.

It's clear in my mind that Merensiel or Bella is scum. We need to pick which one. It's our surest bet.

[Amrun]

No results on them, I assume.

I think it's an outside chance that they're the scumteam. I think one of them being an actual scum neighbor is more likely.

[Amrun]

I did that...

Merensiel, implosion
Merensiel, Bella
Bella, implosion

Bella/implosion doesn't make as much sense.

[Amrun]

I am pretty sure I did mention him before.

My issue with implosion is that he LOOKS town, but PoE tells me he might not be.

Nobody really expressed support of his wagon, but I would join it if so.

Both Merensiel and Bella are independently more scummy, so that seemed like a more logical choice.

If we can all agree on implosion, that's fine. He's on 2/3 of my pairing lists so that's logical.

But then tomorrow we'll still have to deal with the neighbors.

People I will lynch today in order of preference:

Merensiel
Implosion
Bella

[Amrun]

Fair point. There could be only one.

[Amrun]

And if that is the case, neither Bella nor implosion is scum. Leaving Merensiel once again.

Bella, who are your suspects?

[Amrun]

So where does that leave us? Who do you want to lynch, CES? Everyone, same question.

[Amrun]

I sent a message to everyone. It goes through Shanba, though, so you are now waiting on him..

I am in favor of an implosion lynch. I prefer Merensiel, but implosoin is the next-best bet.i

[Amrun]

@implosion: Pretty logical actually.

Bella gets cleared because town has only one "real" pr, so a pair of townie neighbors makes sence for balance.

That leaves you, Oman and Amrun. Two of you are scum anyway, so I'll ignore Oman for now.

So I have to choose between you and Amrun. And I have her as more town.

What kind of humongous backtrack is this?

Town has the following:

Vig
Tracker
Double-Voter
Messenger
Probably 1 Neighbor

But we only have one pr and two neighbors can be town? After you revealed on day 1 because balance told you Bella must be scum, supposedly?

Bella-Merensiel just shot up to number one on my possible pairings list.

[Amrun]

So I guess make that "Probably 1 Neighbor" to "Possibly 1 Neighbor"

[Amrun]

VOTE: Implosion

There seems to be the support for this lynch, though it is not my top choice.

If Oman uses both his votes on Bella, that's also viable since I think implo supports tha lynch, but THAT's not my ideal either!

I think I prefer an implosoin lynch over Bella lynch atm.

But Merensiel "suspects" implosoin... Wat to do.

No one wants to lynch Merensiel?

[Amrun]

Wait, what?

A one-shot is a real PR. Dayvig is a very powerful role.

What made you swing from "neighbors must have scum" to "neighbors are town?"

[Amrun]

I don't understand your thought progression about anything whatsoever in the game.

[Amrun]

Why would it be more useful to scum?

[Amrun]

Wait, the sender is anonymous? I didn't even know that. Everyone knew they were from me, right? I don't think they are anonymous.

[Amrun]

Lol I don't even know how my own power works. Cute. Sorry about that, folks.

I thought it would say, "Amrun sends you this message:"

[Amrun]

Implosion lynch plz?

[Amrun]

I thought he only single voted.

[Amrun]

So, Amrun is scum?

Nope. Why are you asking and whom?

Either you or Merensiel is, though. I honestly can't decide now, which is a problem.

[Amrun]

This is ridiculous.

[Amrun]

Yes. So the big question is: who do you want to lynch?

[Amrun]

I hate no lynches. I thirst for blood.

But I guess I can see it.

VOTE: No Lynch

[Amrun]

Also, it's possible Merensiel site flaked.

[Amrun]

VOTE: Bella

If it was Merensiel, I bet there would have been no action submitted.

[Amrun]

GG.

I'll keep you in suspense.