Mini 1141 - Frogs Mafia 2 - GAME, SET, MATCH

[Apokalyptika]

Ok then,

Vote: mozamis

. Flipflopping, dodging questions, buddying/sucking up, not cool. Also saying that being illogical isn't a bad thing, and this backpedaling on scotmany. PJ is town, implosion is town. Possibly Amrun too. Meransiel is scummy, Truant/CES is silly in his MBL vote but otherwise fairly null.

[Amrun]

@moz: this game started at a terrible time for me, so I haven't been able to designate enough time to this game, but still, I have given more reads than you. Just because I can also do better (and plan to, starting in the next couple of days) doesn't mean you get off the hook for completely abandoning your read when pressed about it.

@PJ: okay. Sorry I didn't have time to do the research myself. I was just curious. So the replacements for those seem to be null tells.

P-edit: That's better, moz, but too little too late. Why was that so hard? And I don't remember scot doing that at all, tbh.

[MrBuddyLee]

But what made you have that read and then change it? What a copout.

I should give u more on what i was thinking i guess.

Seem to remember Scotty popping up to back up some of MBls attacks

-it kinda looked like they were working in tandem maybe. But scot has since fell silent. Frankly, I just dont have enough evidence on him to think he's scum. Guess he's still in my top 5 maybe, but lynching him now would be way too premature.

scot did the following regarding MBL before you first indicated suspicion of him:
1) defended MBL from the "defend predecessor scumtell" attack
2) asked you for your case on MBL
3) asked you for specific examples of where MBL was "flailing"

scotmany never backed up any of my attacks, that I'm aware of. He voted Meransiel and has been poking at you, with a stab at nopoint. His followup questions to Meransiel have been ok. It looks like your "suspicion" of him was basically because he demanded evidence from you. Please go back and reread scot's posts and let us know why you wanted him dead last Wednesday 6pm and changed your mind today 4pm:

in fact, i would string buddy and scot up now if we could.
hopefully someone else can dig up the evidence on em, cos i cant be arsed atm

I'm no longer convinced Scot is scum. I'm pretty sure buddy is scum. And i think Mernasiel is town.

and here's the only post scot made in between:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p2898983

You seem to be making up suspicions and town reads as you go along.

have to say all this protecting/defnding stuff seems balls. why shouldnt i defend people who i think are town? when did that become a scumtell?

Strawman. I'm not using these connections as scumtells unless you're defending or attacking people for no reasons.

[MrBuddyLee]

You also attack every single person who attacked you. And then you vote OhGodMyLife, who was (i) not attacking you, and (ii) not protecting mozamis and Meransiel. Your OhGodMyLife vote feels disjointed, and your recent posts have not convinced me otherwise.

This is terrible logic.

* You're saying that because I pointed out that the cases on me were bogus, that I needed to place my vote on one of the people attacking me instead of leaving it on OGML, who wasn't attacking me?

* Because I pointed out that some of the attacks on me for bad reasons might be protections of M and/or M, that I had to move my vote off a person who was attacking instead of defending (and later 50-50ing) M and/or M?

Flapdoodle. If you want to say I was painting with an overly broad brush by drawing possible connections aloud, then whatever. It's very possible, if not likely, that one or more of M&M are scum, and scum need to be on alert that their protections of scumpartners will come back to haunt them.

Basically, it reads to me as a more subtle attempt to keep the focus where you like while you silently keep your vote on OhGodMyLife. And in my opinion, subtle play has a great tendency to point to scum play.

What the heck are you accusing me of, anyway? Trying to get mozamistown and/or Meransieltown lynched while I keep a winning vote on my scumpartner OGML? Your case/attacks on me are really thin--I don't think you've actually taken issue with any of the evidence I've presented. If you disagree with any evidence I've posted on my top three suspects (OGML, mozamis, Truant), please specifically attack that evidence or the proportionality with which I've presented it.

And to anyone complaining about "walls of text", go read a comic book.

[MrBuddyLee]

As for Meransiel, my biggest problem with him is his vote inconsistency/reasoning behind them.

* voted mozamis for "gut", too clean and cautious, later said he didn't have a good reason for voting him and intended to unvote
* voted scotmany for thin posting but also omgus--scot voted Meransiel 3/16 and mostly posted about Meransiel
* voted MBL for firstpost, said he's still

SURE

scot is scum but MBL is an easier lynch
* voted pj to keep him from leading/dominating the town
* says mozamis is still scummy but won't vote him in case mozamis has a role
* votes mozamis without giving updated reasoning, but gives reasoning when asked

Can't keep his story straight:

my vote was sitting on a player(mozamis) I didn't think was scum anyway

mozamis, I was always kind of suspicious of you, to be honest

Nitpicking, maybe, but Meransiel's take on mozamis has always been a bit tortured:

I don't trust any of you bar 1 or 2 people, and they're not moz.

Though moz did kind of saved me from a tight spot, my read on him has not improved at all, if you may ask.

I do think it's quite scummy. I'm reluctant to do anything against him though...who knows what kind of role he has that he decided to protect me so much? And who knows what will happen to me if he is lynched...

Your constant defense on me, your tunneling on MBL, your casual ignoring of accusations, your complete lack of long posts i.e. actual cases

Inconsistency drives me crazy, but in my last game, a townie got lynched for a massive inconsistent suspicions flip-flop. Need to determine whether there's scum motivation behind the flip flops. Not really sure on that atm.. Also, overcertainty drives me nuts. How is Meransiel SURE scot is scum and then able to switch his vote to two other players? How is he 100% sure PJ is town?

Meransiel defending and claiming to request a prod of Magnetic is null to a minor town tell. Magnetic was town.

Saying best case scenario if PJ vigs is a dead townie and a confirmed townie--which flies in the face of the likely 1:3 to 1:4 odds of hitting scum. This is when OGML and BlenBlen are on PJ's short list. Doesn't make sense, especially considering he seemed to know his odds when talking about lynching flakers earlier. Scum motivation for making that assessment? Trying to sway PJ's vig? meh, not really seeing it. Looks more like talking out his ass.

When I suggested that PJ base his vig off a public vote, I knew there wasn't a chance in hell he'd go for that. I wanted to see who was willing to push which vigs, and a few people responded. Meransiel's request that PJ vig at L-1 appears to be a more genuine request to direct the vig, but since Meransiel's one of the more likely to go to L-1 at this point, I don't necessarily think it's a scummy request.

He was third or so on my wagon (technically 2nd but also after an FOS), and third on the recent mozamis wagon. A bit wagony. I really don't like his use of the "I don't suspect mozamis anymore" excuse to hop on my wagon when he was technically voting scot despite mod error. (He could have compared his vote on me to his vote on SURE scum scotmany, but he compared it to his vote on mozamis instead. Sketchy.)

Weird overall play, occasional flashes of town tone, minor scumhunting on scot/moz if he's town. At the moment looks about 4th or 5th scummiest to me.


@PJ:
Let's assume that your recent defenses are all correct. OGML(Apok), mozamis, Meransiel, you and I are all town. I know you haven't cleared those people, but you have been attacking me for going after them, so let's roll with this for a moment.

That leaves kunkstar, implosion, BlenBlen's replacement Darkstrike, scotmany, Truant's replacement CES, Amrun, Tuncali, nopoint.

You don't seem to think any of them are scum, nor are you questioning any of them at present. What are you up to? Because it doesn't really look like effective scumhunting from my perspective.

[nopointinactingup]

I dont understand this. What do you mean "theres no way a town can say this?" I just asked Mernasial why he thinks I am scum. And then asked him to state his supicions (which he did). Why cant town say this?
And what do you mean by "fake claim". I haven't made a fake claim

lol scum self awareness. There's no way a town be so self conscious as to act this kind of questions. You are caught scum mozamis.

PJ post #291, 314: Told you MBL is a scumbag. Tell you what, you can vig ScummyLee and we can lynch Mozamis

Second, I am not convinced mozamis is scum, let alone "obvscum." I reread the entire game this morning (when I wrote up my MrBuddyLee vote), and although I think mozamis (and Meransiel) have done some fairly silly things, I am not convinced they are actually motivated by scummy reasons.

!@#$%

Vote: nopoint

<3 you too

Nopoint clearly "protected" M&M by voting me for what you agree is a "terrible reason" when he thinks they're "obvious" scum.

Have you been skimming the thread?

that I lied, is wrong.

I'm not wrong, I had fuking evidence. REPLY GODDAMMIT, why did you take back your so called "gambit" without everyone having seen it?

play surrounding the leading wagons is opportunistic, and the vote on mozamis is for a weird reason and not the first one I'd pick as primary evidence.

LOL when the wagons are scum wagons then WHY WOULDN'T I BE FINE WITH BEING ON THE LEADING WAGON. It seems like you are trying to disunify us right there.

My god. Scum, be concise or no one's gonna be convinced that you are not scum.

@Darkstrike: I don't vote? What chu smoking?

Do you think nopoint is voting me for a good reason? If not, then is it reasonable to wonder

why

he's voting me instead of the other people he claimed to find "scummy buddies"?

Your analogy stinks here unless you think my reason for voting OGML is as bad as nopoint's reason for voting me.

You override any scumminess ever created.

[mozamis]

Ok then,

Vote: mozamis

. Flipflopping, dodging questions, buddying/sucking up, not cool. Also saying that being illogical isn't a bad thing, and this backpedaling on scotmany. PJ is town, implosion is town. Possibly Amrun too. Meransiel is scummy, Truant/CES is silly in his MBL vote but otherwise fairly null.

1) Yes I have changed my mind,as anyone sensible on day 1 is bound to do.
2) "Buddying up" is just a buzz word that implies scumminess. I have defended people who I think are town. Nothing "scummy in that".
3) Being illogical is not a bad thing -my meaning, as I'm pretty sure I said at the time, was that being illogical is not a scumtell. People will contradict themselves, change their minds, have feelings which they find hard to articulate. None of which makes them scum. Unhelpful/annoying maybe. But not scummy.
4) "Backpeddaling" -is the same as changing my mind -see point 1.

Your vote really boils down to "don't like the way this guy is posting, it doesn't fit into my preconceived paradigm of how people shuld post in Mafia".

[mozamis]

@moz: this game started at a terrible time for me, so I haven't been able to designate enough time to this game, but still, I have given more reads than you. Just because I can also do better (and plan to, starting in the next couple of days) doesn't mean you get off the hook for completely abandoning your read when pressed about it.

@PJ: okay. Sorry I didn't have time to do the research myself. I was just curious. So the replacements for those seem to be null tells.

P-edit: That's better, moz, but too little too late. Why was that so hard? And I don't remember scot doing that at all, tbh.

Lol so you are not changing your mind? I would have thought it was fairly clear that I didnt give my reasons for scot because:
1) I knew I didnt have much more to go on than instinct.
2) I didnt want to get distracted from BuddyLee, who I am much more convinced is scum.

You maybe annoyed that I didnt reply sooner. But everything I have said is true.

[mozamis]

All of Buddys post 327 is irrelevant now.

[mozamis]

Lol " to go read a comic book". It actually takes more intelligence to clearly distill your thoughts into a few sentences. Walls of text are so often just waffle. In the case of Buddy of course, they are scum waffle

[mozamis]

@ No point in acting up: I am town. I asked Meransial why he thought I was scum. You said "there's no way town can say this".
So you think anyone that says "why do you think i am scum?" IS scum, because they are self aware? Bizzarre.

[mozamis]

And i thought my posts lacked content! NoPointActing's entire post was "YA BOO SUCKS TO ANYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME!".
Quality!

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Also, your analysis totally ignores the fact that OGML was incredibly juiced to play in this specific game.

Have you seen the walls in the game?

Unvote, vote: mozamis

[Meransiel]

Damn this game is piling up so quickly...you either post everyday or get lost.

Good day to the new guy, hope you'll have a jolly good time textwalling about me, and then praying I actually take a better look at it.

MBL, it is curious that although you consider me the 4th or 5th scummiest (and there are likely 2 or 3 scums), your case on me is the most consistent, but whatevs. Do you want me to comment on the things you have unclear about me? Cause it looks like the sort of thing not worth doing without an actual request.

Not liking the attacks of petro against MBL, but since the vig thing is perfectly verifiable, I will limit myself to believing he is 100% town until day 2 (I think that answers one of MBL's questions). And, of course, not liking the slight suspicion of people in general about petro, since it's pointless.

@Darkstrike: Lol, took you some time to write all that. Impressed is all.

@mozamis: Glad to see you working somewhat better lately.

unvote

[mozamis]

Also, your analysis totally ignores the fact that OGML was incredibly juiced to play in this specific game.

Have you seen the walls in the game?

Unvote, vote: mozamis

Why do you think I am scum?

[petroleumjelly]

MBL,

The long and short: I think your long post was an attempt at subtlety. And Townspeople do not have to be subtle. I should know, because I use subtlety all the time when I'm scum, so I know to be on the lookout for it when I'm dealing with an experienced player. It's really one of the few ways to

catch

an experienced player, because it's not like you're going to make a blatant mistake in your posting if you are scum.

As I said before, I am

not

going to parse every word you have said. Mafia is more than words on a page; it's the intent behind the words (just like somebody can say something that is completely true, and yet still be misleading). The overall

effect

of your post was "Meransiel and mozamis are scum, and players are protecting them" and then you leave your vote on OhGodMyLife. Saying "I am not scumhunting" when I am pretty clearly attacking

you

(and further, I have elicited ridiculously long, responsible posts from you as a result of my attack) is also pretty stupid.

[MrBuddyLee]

PJ, who is your #2 suspect? (Or your #1 suspect if you're just poking at me for information.) You're accusing me of being distractive/subtle by pointing to OGML, mozamis and Meransiel (and Truant/nopoint by implication), so who else is scum besides me? I haven't really seen you poke at anyone else besides me since you asked mozamis a question a week ago.

@mozamis, Apok gave you four reasons he's voting you. You addressed all decently except "dodging questions". Probably because you recognize you've been dodging questions. Don't do it when you're town. Also, you have three pages of posts and have expressed no current suspicions other than on me. Who else do you suspect and why?

[Tuncali]

At this moment, I am happy with my vote on mozamis, I do not like the way he has been playing.

As for the petroleumjelly and MrBuddyLee argument, I am getting the feeling that it is a Town on Town argument. Both of you are making good points, but I do not think either of your actions are from a Mafia-oriented perspective.

[Shanba]

Vote Count:
5: mozamis

(tuncali, nopointinactingup, implosion, Apokalyptica, Cogito Ergo Sum)

2: MrBuddyLee

(mozamis, petroleumjelly)

2: Meransiel

(scotmany12, Amrun)

2: Cogito Ergo Sum

(Darkstrike_11, kunkstar7)

1: OhGodMyLife

(MrBuddyLee)
Not Voting:

Meransiel

kunkstar7 is in violation of activity guidelines and is being prodded

[MrBuddyLee]

I wanted to do a player rn down but I won't until we finally have everyone on board.

Please do--your analysis is really thin and your top two suspicions (M&M) are poorly evidenced.

@Tuncali, who else do you suspect besides mozamis? I don't believe you've questioned or indicated suspicion of anyone else.

[mozamis]

At this moment, I am happy with my vote on mozamis, I do not like the way he has been playing.
I genuinely LOL'ed at that Claasic reason for voting. Not "i think he is scum" but the elegant simplcity of "don't like his style".
As for the petroleumjelly and MrBuddyLee argument, I am getting the feeling that it is a Town on Town argument. Both of you are making good points, but I do not think either of your actions are from a Mafia-oriented perspective.

Surely you must see BuddyLee's obfuscation and waffle for what is it, scum trying to confuse everyone. Note how he keeps trying to get people to name their other suspects. Deflects from him.
Hence why, for the time being I am not going to say whe else I find suspicious, until we lynch Buddy. Unless he/someone else does a really good job of persuading me he is town.

[mozamis]

sorry i messed up Tuncali's quote. My comment is where the laughy face is

[mozamis]

surprised Buddy hasn't hammered me. Or have i got the maths wrong?'

[Darkstrike_11]

@Darkstrike: I don't vote? What chu smoking?

i'm not smoking anything, the fact that you would suggest that I am is both insulting and contra......LOL JOKE WEED IS AWESEOM.

in all seriousness, i gave you a cheeky iso and saw that you had voted. twice. comment withdrawn.

Nopoint, who do you think looks scummy apart from MBL and Moz?

[Darkstrike_11]

Moz, your maths is fine, the mods isnt though, you only have 5 votes.