Mini 1141 - Frogs Mafia 2 - GAME, SET, MATCH

[Meransiel]

Ok, you proved MBL is a douche. Where's the scummy part?

[Oman]

I will lead into this admitting that I'm thinking Amrun, Meransiel is a good scumteam, but I haven't really read through, so we'll see.

PJ in the RVS, man. Remind me never to step on his toes.

Amrun is pretty quick to throw a lot around in the early pages. He jumps on things very overdefensively, but he also does it when attacking too. Suspect this is more inherent to playstyle than it is to alignment.

PJ plays some more aggressive mind games.

It was a probable certainty, not an absolute one. Voting for someone who has a 25% chance of being scum, not increased or decreased by any factors, is worse than RVS.

Wait...what? I don't quite understand. Tell me someone caught this.

I replaced in because PJ asked me to and because Shanba is totally Shibby.

This game is so sweet. This is why I shoulder-barged my way through everybody who wanted this replacement slot.

Amrun promotes killing lurkers with PJ's Dayvig, not sure how I feel about that.

Post #262 Kunkstar7 defends MBL. This isn't a massive thing, but k7 (ooooh now I miss killer7) hasn't done too much.

Page 12 #275, this is where I start considering an MBL/Amrun scumteam with distancing. Without getting ahead of myself, I think distancing over 30 odd pages isn't feasible.

And just so that everyone is aware at this point: I'm not going to reference my predecessor's actions, cause there is almost no point.

By Page 14 MBL is clashing with PJ, I'm trying really hard to see if this is just one of those "two strong personalities" thing. CES is in this game too! Awesome!!!

I want a one or two word read on him from you, MBL.

Bacon cheeseburger.

I laughed. And now I want a bacon cheeseburger.

kunkstar7: Town, so far. I think all of the points (even the ones raised against me) he has raised are thus far logical and from a town point of view. Perhaps could use a little more activity.

This is not what I expect from a partner, but it could be I'm failing meta these days. Overall he puts one person in the scumlist, which is a pretty mafia kind of thing to do.

MBL not hammering early D1 is a pretty good towntell there, especially as he actively keeps discussion going. Oh he was L-2, disregard.

Why the fuck did I replace into this game? Fuck you shanba!

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu@moz flip.

You know, I hate this. Far be it from me to call out scum from just one tell, but yeah

IGMEOY

Post 491 Meripippin chases scotmany onto nopoint (he dodges an MBL and a CES wagon this way).

Seems like a town on town argument to me, albeit a weird one...

References CES Amrun. If Meripippin is scum, dollars to doughnuts that one of these dudes is his partner.

@implosion, Apok, scot and Amrun, what do you think of Meransiel? (scot, you gave an updated read, but I'd like that "more info" you mentioned.)

Would MrScummyLee as this question of Meranscum? I don't believe so. I think it draws unnecessary attention from a large group. Meranscum = MrBuddyTown. MrScummyLee = Merantown.



End page 23. Fuck you all, I'm taking a break.


In truth, I love you guys! Thanks for playing with me. I've been reading through thinking "I'm stoked to play with PJ aga- AH YOU BASTARDS! Oh username is in th- AH! GODDAMN IT!" Bella is still alive though <3

[MrBuddyLee]

I look forward to nailing a few of these young Turks to the wall before summer dawns.

The jokes aren't funny, and are racist and offensive (unrelated question: are you Greek, German, or Australian, or just parroting other cultures?), so why make them if not to plant seeds of towniness in people's minds for no real gameplay reason?

young turk

- an insurgent in a political party, especially one belonging to a group or faction that supports liberal or progressive policies: The leadership of the party passed from the cautious old-line conservatives to the zealous Young Turks.

Also, young Turk, young turk . any person aggressively or impatiently advocating reform within an organization.

This was actually a joke making fun of myself for being an old fart. Being a "Young Turk" is a good thing. Kids these days... *shakes fist*

Ok, you proved MBL is a douche.

Ok, you made my girlfriend snort milk out her nose, and now she wants to know who this Amrun chick is so they can go shopping together.

[Amrun]

Well, the dictionary is racist, once again, which makes my stomach turn.

And I'd be happy to go shopping with your girlfriend.

Nice catch with kunkstar defending MBL, Oman. Makes their connection stronger.

[Oman]

Oh god, really, complaining about inherent racism in culture. Can't we just kill each other like civilised humans?

[Oman]

EBWOP: MBL, can I got shopping with your girlfriend?

[Amrun]

>.>. Sorry, but using Turk as an insult really hits close to home for me. I retract blame from MBL, though.

[MrBuddyLee]

Amrun, it's a compliment, not an insult, to call someone a Young Turk.

MBL, can I go shopping with your girlfriend?

Shelly says anyone who's into bacon cheeseburgers is ok in her book.

[MrBuddyLee]

kunkstar, what do you think of Apok? I have about the same thoughts on nopoint as you do--almost too reckless to be scum. Played terribly if he's town. Left the site, apparently only abandoning this game, when mozamis came up town.

More buddying behavior with kunkstar. There has to be something wrong with your scumdar if you always agree with scum - unless you are scum, of course.

Amrun, you make no attempt here to analyze the quality of my defense of nopoint, which is the core issue here. Was my defense of nopoint scummy? Did it read to you like "scum defending town" for some reason? Did you compare my defense of nopoint to kunkstar's defense of nopoint? No.

Instead, you make the blanket statement "kunk and MBL agree--thus they are scum together".

I went through your entire "case" and you only analyzed the quality of my scumhunting twice. Once, to point out that "bacon cheeseburger" was not effective scumhunting. The second time, I told mozamis that he should find a backup suspect because his case on me sucked:

hopefully someone else can dig up the evidence on em, cos i cant be arsed atm

You're not trying to determine my veracity by analyzing my words, you're more trying to tie me to a faction based on my attacks on town and my agreement with scum. Hint: town doesn't know who's who, so sometimes we do that.



Here's another really awesome example of your failure to analyze--let's take the first kunkstar post I agreed with:

OGML's calling calling out of moz and Meriansel reads really weak to me.
@OGML you keep trying to get everyone to look at these two players, comment on them, and even have your vote on them, but you don't express any reason to do so (even if its just gut). What gives?

This is probably the best post in the game thus far. I spotted OGML's weaksauce on my third readthrough and was going to post about it when I came across kunk's good find.

OGML's ISO 3 is good to me, but then

ISO 4 is terrible

You're trying to incriminate me by connecting me to him, but you agreed with the same kunkstar post I did.

You're not reading the game for context--you're reading it for gotcha.

[Amrun]

It isn't that you agreed with him at all; i pointed out the agreements to show the flip-flop after the flip and also because you ONLY ever agreed with him while he was alive, then all of a sudden after he was dead it was a different story.

About the Turk thing, it's not relevant, but I suppose it's not as much of an insult as I first presumed. But equating Turks to insurgents is neither a compliment or an insult without context, and in the joke, you said you were nailing the to the wall. Like I said, I am just a little touchy about this issue. I wasn't actually upset, but it was a matter of personal interest.

[Oman]

About the Turk thing, it's not relevant, but I suppose it's not as much of an insult as I first presumed. But equating Turks to insurgents is neither a compliment or an insult without context, and in the joke, you said you were nailing the to the wall. Like I said, I am just a little touchy about this issue. I wasn't actually upset, but it was a matter of personal interest.

[MrBuddyLee]

What would you consider the pro-town play in my circumstance?
* I agreed with kunkstar about two early posts (re: OGML and Truant), and agreed with him (correctly) about nopoint-town.
* I pointed out two weaknesses in his play while he was still alive, and a possible scumslip where it looked like he possibly read about PJ's vig in a Quicktopic.

When he flipped scum, would you expect town in my situation to NOT try to use kunk-interactions as evidence? Just because I agreed with him in a few places? Whether you're scum or town, you're essentially following my advice here--using kunk-interactions to find scum. So it's bizarre that you'd call me scummy for suggesting that course of action.

You also don't seem to address the fact that I'm the only person (I think) to really clear another player (Apok) based on their interactions with kunkstar and/or kunkstar's behavior.

[Amrun]

Point out where you criticized him because I probably read your ISO 4 times and did not see that. But then again, the walls were bleeding. >.>

Oman, I knew MBL could take my question in good spirit. I was sincerely wondereing if he was Greek.

[MrBuddyLee]

Noticed this being quoted on the last page and haven't seen the flip so I feel my answer is sufficiently pure (make of it what you will)

This is probably one of those lame "gotcha!" questions, but I've gotta ask anyway. How did you know there was a flip if you haven't seen what it is?

OGML's slot fell out of top for me due to the mozamis slot, which OGML's read depended on mozamis's alignment.

Why did mozamis flipping town make you think OGML/Apok was more likely town?

Summarizing your case on me, Amrun:

* 4 counts of "acting like Townie McTownerson"
* 2 counts of agreeing with known scum on OGML and nopoint
* One count of having a bad scum/townlist 2 days into the game
* One count of "let's trust mozamis's suspicions--he thought MBL was scum"
* One count of bacon cheeseburger
* One count of "told mozamis to make a case on someone"
* One (false) count of suggesting we use kunk-interactions and then not using them
* One count of FOSing Meransiel while finding him mostly townish D1


You pretty much never assess my actual play. I don't get a sense that you asked yourself questions like:

* "were MBL's thoughts on OGML townish?"
* "mozamis and nopoint were attacking MBL on bad cases.. did he respond like scum or like town?"
* "has MBL's evolution of opinion on Apok made sense from a town perspective?"
* "is MBL zeroing in on scum now or is he trying to mislead us?"

I'm convinced that you're the type of player who (like me) would put a fair amount of effort into rereading the game as scum. What I'm trying to figure out is.. are you approaching the task like scum or town? The hardest thing for scum to fake is uncertainty. They lock in on town (or on scumpartners) as "guilty" and forget to include a measure of doubt in their thoughts. It feels like that's what you're doing here.

[Amrun]

Those are questions to kunkstar. They were never followed up on. No conclusions were ever drawn.

To call those evidence of suspicion is a huge stretch.

And yes, I did analyze those things. I answered them to myself in varying ways, none of them strong enough that I felt warranted being part of the post. Some of them I did post, but perhaps not as directly as you'd like. Let me try again.

1. Yes, I do think so, on this. But then again, I thought the same thing about kunkstar.
2. Like scum with mozamis, which I attempted to point out in my wall. Null for nopoint, because you basically destroyed his logic, which was terrible, and which you could have done as either alignment and had motivation to do so as either alignment.
3. Yes, on this. This gave me a little pause, actually. It is one of the reasons you did not get bumped up to above Merensiel. It could still be faked by good scum, which I believe you are.
4. You are trying to mislead us. I thought I made that clear. You used my meta to plant the idea of me as scum in people's minds before presenting a case and I think this was an obvious attempt to mislead the town.

[implosion]

Okay. Thinking it over, this is what I have figured out. Oman is probably town because he (apok) can doublevote on the same person. I'm going to assume he's town for now, along with CES. scotmany could in theory be scum, but he reads as town and (if scum) is definitely going to wait for later, and is probably going to become more obvious later if he is mafia. So that leaves (at least, from my point of view)

-MBL
-Amrun
-Bella
-Meransiel

as the most likely scum. If the scumteam is Bella+Meransiel, then if one of them is ever lynched and doesn't flip neighbor, we'd know the other is scum - so it's an unfeasible gambit for scum to do. That means that either MBL or Amrun (or both, but probably not) is most likely scum. Probably with either Bella or Meransiel, unless they're hardcore bussing right now, which I doubt they would do in this situation if they're scum together.

Between Meransiel and Bella, I feel it's probably Bella. Meransiel reads town to me. Bella does not. I have seen nothing from Bella that makes me think that she is town, whereas Meransiel has said things that I see as most likely coming from town.

As for MBL and Amrun:

Amrun, please respond to the following point of MBL's (I don't see a response):

Meanwhile, you placed the L-1 on kunkstar even though CES, your #1 suspect from the previous day, was the one accusing kunkstar.

Bzzt. You're scum.

MBL, please respond to the following post of Amrun's (924, also don't see a response):

I actually woke from a dead sleep because I forgot to post something important about MBL.

I really dislike the way he's using my meta. It's one thing to say "so and so tends to do this more as scum than as town" but to say, "Amrun has a good scum record, so she should be scrutinized" iis doing the opposite of what he was trying to do with himself, painting himself as town. Instead, he's planting the idea that I'm scum for no valid reason. A case of sorts followed, but it felt like it was contrived after he realized he could use my good record as scum as a tool to mislynch me. Not too long ago, he had cleared me as town, iirc.

I wonder if I was dreaming about this game.

[Amrun]

The response to that post is near the end of my wall on MBL.

Merensiel post before I sleep tonight or die trying! I promise.

[MrBuddyLee]

I really dislike the way he's using my meta. It's one thing to say "so and so tends to do this more as scum than as town" but to say, "Amrun has a good scum record, so she should be scrutinized" iis doing the opposite of what he was trying to do with himself, painting himself as town. Instead, he's planting the idea that I'm scum for no valid reason. A case of sorts followed, but it felt like it was contrived after he realized he could use my good record as scum as a tool to mislynch me. Not too long ago, he had cleared me as town, iirc.

Plain and simple, I semi-cleared you too early for tone. As POE started to pit you against implosion, Bella and Meransiel, I read through a couple of your games as scum to see how your tone was as a bad girl. And you came across as good scum. For a while, I've thought you were a newbie, but if you are, you've picked up the art quickly. My thought process day one on you was "she's blah blah blahing a lot and playing loose with the facts but she's putting in the effort that I'd expect of town". Once I realized you did that as scum as well, I realized it'd be foolish to take you off the possible scum list just because your tone was townish. Read your play more critically and realized that it's not particularly town-motivated, at least from what we can see so far.

I don't think I'm "planting the idea that you're scum for no valid reason". You're a suspect, and I've deconstructed your posts and found some bad stuff. Thing is, you and Meransiel have both posted more volume than implo and Bella, so by default there's probably going to be more bad stuff to point to in your play than in theirs, even if you're town. So it falls to ratio, and I just don't see all that much "good stuff" coming from you, Amrun. I'll do a read of your play to see what stands out as townish, just as a reality check to see if I'm tunneling.

[Amrun]

What about the other post I addressed to you, answering your questions, MBL?

[implosion]

Hm. so it is.

I also plan to ISO kunk tomorrow to look for associative tells, by the way. In terms of MBL and Amrun's actual cases on each other, I'm still trying to figure them out (in terms of how towny/scummy the actual cases are more so than how incriminating they are to the person they're on, actually).

[MrBuddyLee]

Null for nopoint, because you basically destroyed his logic, which was terrible, and which you could have done as either alignment and had motivation to do so as either alignment.

So you consider this null:

Is iamausername scum? I know you had a problem with the predecessor (nopointinactingup).

I know you guys like short answers with no fluff, so I'll say "probably not".

1) The nopoint wagon came together somewhat easily.
2) If nopoint is scum, coming after me like he did was suicide.
3) I like iam's scumlist and reasoning.
4) Minimal attempts to ask iam meaningful questions are lazy town/possible lazy scum.
5) Two or three of the players I've found troublesome are on the wagon.
6) Bella's and Amrun's overeagerness to hammer despite suspecting/not suspecting nopoint.
7) Scum would have been energized by the mozamis lynch, not demotivated.

[Amrun]

Overall, yes, though I was more referring to where you broke down nopoint's posts.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I got prodded because you guys haven't lynched MBL yet. Get on that.

[MrBuddyLee]

CES, be a doll and pretend I'm dead already (town flip, shocker!) and scot got killed overnight. I'll stay extra quiet so you can figure out who to lynch next.

ps. It's lynch-or-lose now in the land of make-believe!

[Meransiel]

Railroader