Of Gods And Men (GAME OVER!)

[Katy]

Hi, I am checking in to point out my sig - I am on vacation in New York for the next week and am trying my best to keep up, but I just logged in to see 15 pages. I am on page 5 and it is 2:30 am here. I am going to try to finish reading and take some notes and will try to make a game post tomorrow sometime.

[Katy]

But it also applies to you. So you are scummy.

I love having iecerint in games because he's a favorite mislynch target for scum. Observing how people react to him is often informative. Seeing if this wagon picks up speed could be very instructive. Oops did I say that out loud?

So I've only taken notes up to page 5 and read the last three pages that are new since last night, not ready to vote based on only that but I have some candidates already.

I've got my eye on Raj and Fate (although granted I've only read closely about one-third of the game). Raj seems to be skimming and not paying attention to detail which is more characteristic of scum than town, and Fate is pinging my "talking out of his ass" radars. His posts seem to be a jumble of nonsense, bad ideas, pretending to know stuff and scrambling to explain the aforementioned things. I would vote for Fate if I were voting at this moment, but I don't like voting with a good portion of the game not really read closely by me.

As for worship, I'm happy to worship anyone who puts forth the best campaign. I am especially willing to worship any gods who offer me cookies and/or magical powers. Will continue to read and take notes from both ends until I'm all caught up.

[Katy]

This reads as "People in worshippable factions should totally out themselves for me"

Eh, it was just a fancy way of saying "I don't particularly care at the moment who I place my worship vote on." Also, since Alfred was hinting at some sort of worshipping plan earlier, I was hoping to get him to offer me a cookie.

he is? welp I definitely wouldn't consider his play anything of the sort.

Yeah, as Iecerint said, in the games I have played with him, he has been like delicious candy for scums to vote, and I'm not sure what it is about him, since he seems like a nice guy to me, but he attracts a lot of "something's off about you" and "I get a bad feeling about you" votes (in my experience) and I find those awfully suspicious-making. Mostly what I have noted in this game though was at least one person who threw down a vague "Yeah something off about iec" without casting a vote yet.

Anyway, I'm on page ten now. So far I am inclined to believe DTM (for now) on his role restriction claim. I don't know anything about Kickass, so I don't know if it makes sense with the role. I do note that he referenced Rule 19 and that his restriction makes his posts hard to read since you have to wade through all the cursing bs to make out any substance. I'm not ruling out the possibility that he saw Rule 19 and made up a post restriction. I've done something similar as a third party role since it got me out of a fair bit of hard work when it came to posting. Still I think it's that's a stretch that would need something more to support a case than just that speculation.

I actually thought SpyreX's list of contradictory posts on Mina was well thought-out, but I worse than Mina's contradictions is Nikanor's "I voted to see if Spyre would give out secret info." I think it's a bad and lazy vote - if you want someone to explain something, pressure THEM to explain it. If you want to place a vote you should place it to kill scum.

Anyway, I should be able to get fully caught up tomorrow and ready to decide who is really the scum here, after I figure out my top suspects and give them a closer read. I have lost my ID, and unless I find it by tomorrow night, I guess I will have time to post when I would otherwise be drinking.

[Katy]

So much bickering today. Well, at least it looks like it's going to be lighter activity for the weekend so maybe I can keep up now.

I'm pretty sure Mina is town. While I see Spyre's points on her, I think she's been one of the players who has been active, kept on topic and been pushing people pretty hard. I also have some sympathy as someone who has a hard time at the beginning of the game and only gets going once the game gets rolling for serious.

I'm still leaning town on Iecerint. He feels similar to town games I have played with him, although I have yet to play a scum game with him, so I'm not discounting ABR's opinion that he's similar to their scum game together, so that's confusing. I may have to go look at a scum game for him just to be sure.

I also haven't found any of his actions in this game to be particularly scummy. We have no idea who scum are yet, so I actually find his willingness to claim a worship target to be more townie than scum. I would think if he were a Norse god who were scum, or scum who wanted Norse gods to be worshipped for whatever reasons, he wouldn't volunteer that information so readily unless everyone was being pressured to claim a worship target.

People I don't like so much:

J-Scope

: He only has two posts so I want to see more from him to be sure, but his two posts are VERY "fly-under-radar" type posts. He declares MO, Mina, and Spyre town, but doesn't say why except for Spyre.

He then does the 'Iec feels off to me" that I so dislike and talks briefly about ABR's worship plan, supporting it weakly.

His only other post is in response to Fate's FOS on Faraday:

Fos's are worthless. He's done nothing to change my read on him.

There's a distinct lack of substantive content in his posts, and the one above seems to refer to his "read" on Faraday, which he has not actually given, so I'm not sure if he wants to give the impression he has, or what that quote is supposed to actually contribute to the game.

Despite his distaste for it, I have no problem with

FOS: J-Scope

Fate

is one of those players I just can't tell at all. As far as I can tell he's either amusing but ultimately worthless (or scummy) or one of those people who is weird and incomprehensible, but ultimately useful. I'm willing to wait and see for the moment, or at least defer to those who know him.

And that leaves

Nikanor

. Nikanor was waiting for the game to begin to jump in and place a random vote. This is not in itself a scumtell, but I do know of player's who have trying to make the first "random" vote as part of their strategy.

And then this:

I must say I'm tempted to vote for Elscouta. The contradiction between his location and his signature is glaring at me.

He's already making a random vote - why is he throwing out more randomness? What was the point of this post?

Then he "pseudo-votes" SK I assume for trying to draw info out of Fate, but actually votes Mina for the sole purpose of getting "secret info" from Spyre. That seems a backwards course of action to me.

Finally there's the attempt to strongarm votes on Parama, first by asking in such a way as to imply he has concrete information, then it turns out it's almost completely meta based on one third party game. Meta is useful, but what has Parama done scummy in this game?

Vote: DarkStalker

(Nikanor)

[Katy]

Add Katy to the list of probables.
- Calls Iece wagon as scum driven since "scum always like a Iece mislynch"
- Both Iece and Mina are town (last post)

Wow you must be really confident in yourself to think I'm scum only because I disagree with you on some alignments. Is everyone who doesn't agree with your reads scummy?

@ Katy, J-Scope is the same person as Faraday. Faraday's mistakenly posted with a hydra account.

Okay, that makes a whole lot more sense. I missed that explanation when I was trying to catch up to the thread, and I only ISOed when I made that last post. That puts those posts in a whole different context.

The fact that he didn't get a rules infraction for his post where he doesn't swear makes me nervous

Me too, and this has now happened twice.

1. Whoa. You ignored, like the latter half of Nik's posts. Like his serious vote on Mina and his reaction fishing of Parama.

Your case on Nikanor is about as weak as a spent cock. I don't like it. It makes Ooba/Fate's case more credible on that triangle of scummmmmdar.

Er, no I didn't ignore any of it. His explanation of his vote on Mina i as follows:

It's the secret information that catches my fancy. The case against you isn't too bad either, at least not for this stage of the game, but my main reason for voting you is the super secret tidbit that SpyreX is dangling in front of me.

He makes no other case, except "I want info that may or may not really exist, oh yeah, and I guess the case Spyre made is okay too."

And you are calling my case weak? Nikanor's vote is about as weak as it gets without being random. What makes you think that was a really great vote to make?

As for his posting about Parama, I addressed that too. He was making a huge distraction implying he had some knowledge about Parama, and then when pressed to it claims he knows Parama is scum based on a meta from one game. A meta from one game - again, you are calling my case weak, but think this is something strong?

You are implying that I am ignoring things that I directly addressed in my post - why? *looks askance at DTM*

I still don't see how Iec's claiming he wants to worship Norse gods could possibly be scummy, and now his outing that he has a QT is even less so. Why would he say that if he were scum? In my experience, scum doesn't volunteer info, certainly not truthful info. SO unless he's lying about the Norse gods, (and I see no reason to think that right now) I don't see why he would volunteer that info so readily as scum, unless everyone was claiming and he wanted to go along with it - in which case, the mere act isn't scummy in itself.

Then he claims to have a QT because he is worried about scum daytalking. Again, this strikes me as far more likely to be a town action as it draws far more attention than scum would want to draw to themselves.

Added to this is the fact that in my experience Iecerint is not the type of player to pursue elaborate gambits as scum. (Feel free to correct me on this by giving evidence). This behavior from him is almost certainly town in my opinion.

[Katy]

Added to this is the fact that in my experience Iecerint is not the type of player to pursue elaborate gambits as scum. (Feel free to correct me on this by giving evidence). This behavior from him is almost certainly town in my opinion.

Hmm? What experience is that? Or is this just conjecture?

It's conjecture based on what I know of your personality. What I know of you and your personality and playstyle in general does not jive with you outing both a faction you are affiliated with (or claim to be affiliated with) and the fact that you have a QT you participate in as an elaborate scum gambit. I DO see you doing this in your eagerness to help town.

However, if someone who has specific experience with you as scum (ABR mentioned playing on a scumteam with you) begs to differ, I will check out whatever game it is to see what you did there and compare.

[Katy]

@Kathy
Let's break your case down to 4 points.

1. The first RV. We both agree. Nothing biggy.

2. The second "RV" wasn't a vote. I'll let Nikanor answer this question, since it's directed to him, My interpretation (not a RV, more of a pressure)

3.SK vote. Now this is something. Explain to me the diffrence between Ice's point on Mina-scum linking to Ort-scum/DTM-scum and how it differs from Nikanor. How about Spy from Nikanor. Spy lead with the secret information theory. Ice fully explained the Mina link theory. But you seem to find them townier then Nikanor.

Because I don't know what Nikanor was doing with his "pseudo-vote." He didn't give an explanation for that action, merely linked to a post, leaving it up to the reader to try to interpret his intent. I think that's scummy, because he leaves it to others to insert his reasoning for him. A big scumtell I look for is people throwing vague accusations out to see what "sticks" and this definitely feels like that. I think that is a lot different from someone explaining their reasoning explicitly. It is different from what Spyre did because Spyre built an actual case on Mina before dangling "secret info."

I reread your whole issue with the lazy vote and:

I also disagree with your vote theory. Why can't you pressure someone with questions and votes? Why must you pressure someone? But only kill with votes.

You can pressure someone with votes, but how could his stated reason for voting pressure Mina? He was wanting information from Spyre, there's nothing Mina can really do about that either way. Nothing Mina says could affect Spyre's claim of being able to access some sort of secret information so there's nothing for her to respond to in Nikanor's vote.

Wouldn't the whole: if votes = death, and Mina gained votes because of her slip, be considered pressure to see how she behaves when she's going to die?

But that wasn't Nikanor's reasoning - even when asked to clarify he stated that his vote was for getting secret info that Spyre claimed to be able to give if people voted for Mina. He didn't ever say he was pressuring her or wanting to see how she behaved, so there's no reason to think that this was what he was doing. But thanks for trying to give him a way out.

I don't see your logic in this. If you're saying that votes shouldn't be used for pressuring as here ... You should also be attacking Spy because he voted Mina, and then explained why his vote was on Mina to find the secret info.

I didn't mean to say that votes shouldn't be used to pressure, if that's how you read it. I was saying that if Spyre is holding info hostage and requiring someone else's lynch to give it, then Spyre is the one who should be under pressure. Nikanor shouldn't have been voting for Mina JUST to get some sort of magical information, he should vote for her because he thinks she's scum.

I don't really like Spyre's vague promise of secret info, but he at least made a reasonable case before voting and I think there's a possibility he has some purpose behind what he did. I dislike Nikanor's vote for the sole purpose of maybe getting this secret info from Spyre more than I dislike Spyre's promising it in the first place.

Finally I don't see how you find Parama townie in his response to either Nikanor or Me.

I don't necessarily find him townie, and therefore he was not on my list of people I think are town.

I do want to do an ISO on him at some point, but nothing I read from him bothered me as much as what I read from Nikanor.

And tomorrow I will give you some fascinating results or I will be held responsible. So please start voting now for one of those three factions before you forget.

I'm going to remember that. /random gives me 1 so it's Egyptian gods for me.

Well, we know now that ABR knows Sky and Sky knows ABR, and that they appear to be opposed.

I don't know this. I just know that he claims to know who it is. He seems to have FAR more info about the game on day one than I do and I'm starting to find it pretty weird that he seems to know so much. As he said, he has to produce results or pay, so I'm not too worried in the areas where he has to back up his posturing, but I'm not going to automatically believe or trust everything he says right now, especially given that we don't know yet what all factions we have out there or if people have separate win cons, etc.

[Katy]

I do not know why Ortolan/FlipScythe could not be lynched, but I have info from the night that suggests that we do not want to lynch his replacement anyway. He is very clearly a good guy from the info I received.

[Katy]

Spyrex was the most obvious townie I have seen in a long time.

Can't be assed to care about this game right now. Someone tell me who to vote.

Yeah, I think SpyreX was the person I was least worried about at the end of the day. I am baffled about this vig choice, but I don't see why scum would just come out and claim that kill.

It's interesting that there is a cult in the game AND gods AND men and scum among them presumably. I would guess that the scum is a mix of character types, because it seems too easy to have scum be all one thing. It also seems a bit too neat to have one of each god, but it also seems too much to have it all be non-gods, so there must be gods in the scum group. I guess if we ever get down to one god in a group and haven't found scum, that person would be a good bet for a lynch.

I also don't think the Endless are the cult. It seems from those numbers that the cult is probably just a cult leader at this point. Ugh, I hate cults, it could be anyone, no one can be confirmed town.

As for the worship, I think Iec might be right that we should worship Angels or Norse because if Spyre and SK were town, then the other two groups will have a higher ratio of town to scum to use their powers for good.

My vote pending a review of the voting yesterday, I think it will help me make up my mind.

[Katy]

Wow, I haven't seen such a good example of useless blather disguised as game analysis (Information Instead of Analysis) in a while.

Vote: Katy

Well, as I said in my post, I still wanted to go back and look at yesterday. I was just putting my thoughts in response to what had happened so far this day, because this game moves freaking fast.

In any case, now that I have been able to take a look at the end of the last day, which I missed due to my V/LA, I have a better handle on what I think about people.

For my worship, I voted

Egyptians

, but I did it just to see if it would show up in whatever ABR was doing for today. In order to help people who are trying to figure things out, my worship vote doesn't count. I'm not sure if there's any point in me voting or not at all from now on.

Anyways, as to people in the game:

The Scummy:

Snow_Bunny and DarkStalker are two that are confusing me, both have made blatantly anti-town actions but both have done them unambiguously and out way in the open, so I can't tell if they are town that isn't paying attention or scum that are making themselves as plain as day.

Snow_Bunny

claims a kill on someone everyone thought was anti-town, and

DarkStalker

suggests lynching a player of unknown alignment who cannot affect the game right now. I'm still feeling that Mina was town so this is not only a time-waster, but probably directly anti-town as well since I think it would lead to a town lynch of a person who can't defend herself against it.

Vote: DarkStalker

because I think there's more chance Snow_bunny is actually being truthful.

Dramonic

was the very picture of active lurker yesterday, posting regularly, but posting little of substance. He was also fairly eager for the hammer to fall on Orto.

I also haven't changed my mind on

Nikanor

from yesterday. I disagree that the justification given for a vote does not indicate alignment. He made more than one vote whose justification indicated little to no thought put into his vote. I think town players are motivated to win and therefore motivated to find scum, not just vote for whoever has the most votes already, or other equally lazy reasons. I'm not saying every vote has to be accompanied by a dazzling case, or that you can't follow on the reasoning of others, but I tend to give town reads to people who put in some effort.

He also tried more than once to downplay ABR's plan, which now that it's actually played out into helpful info goes in the scum column.

The only thing that's holding me back is I am sure he and Parama wouldn't be scum together, and Parama's whole game consists of "Too much spam, I'm not playing" which is no more pro-town than anything I pointed out for Nik.

Towners:

ABR

: His power works and it seems to be a pretty pro-town power. I am buying what he is selling.

Tar/DTM

: This would be an outrageous gambit if they are lying and their claims match with ABR's census. I don't see how they could be other than what they claim.

Iecerint

: I still think he's town based on behavior and the info he's shared with everyone.

Orto

: As I said, I have info from the night that indicates he has to be a good guy. Unless anyone can think of a way that "benevolent spirit" could be bad. And because of that I'm also not interested in finding out why his lynch didn't work.

[Katy]

This is a very dumb idea.
.

This. Outing all the gods and claiming all their powers is a nice way to give scum a kill order. I don't mind claiming divinity/mortal as I presume that there are powers among the mortals and that doesn't reveal anything about who is a better kill to scum, but outing all the worship powers at once seems idiotic. Yes, it would allow us to pick and choose worship, but it would also give scum a ton of info to use when evaluating who to kill. If anyone's worship power involves protecting other people they are dead meat.

Not sure what to think about Chronopie's claim. It makes him seem pretty pro-town, but I have this nagging suspicion that his willingness to claim means that he's scum claiming a power to seem pro-town. His power in and of itself is not strictly pro-town, especially given the uncertainty of the resurrection.

@Chronopie

: I'm trying to understand your power to better evaluate it. At the time you resurrect someone, what stage of their kill reveal will they be in. In other words, how much would we know about them? You may have said it in one of your posts but I am not totally clear on it after reading through them.

I am worried the power would allow you to resurrect a scum player without town realizing they are scum.

@Darkstalker:

Do you think Mina is likely to flip scum? If so, why?

[Katy]

Don't like this statement. It's pretty much about scum going after people for something that looks town, but actually isn't a valid case. In this, Katy is narrowly defining a "reason" why townies should vote, and then attacking anyone who doesn't fit that definition.

Ugh this was brought up yesterday too, and I was unable to address it before day ended, so I will address it now. I am not trying to dictate how people should vote, but I happen to think that the reasons people give for their vote ARE helpful in figuring out alignment.

Town players are genuinely looking for scum, so when they vote for someone, it is usually because they legitimately think they are scummy for some reason or another, even if they are wrong or even if it's poor reasoning. Scum players, on the other hand, have to manufacture reasons to vote for town players.

So if someone is consistently voting for reasons that don't seem to have a lot of thought behind them or don't make any case for being scum, then it makes my scum radar go off. Yesterday Nikanor had voted first for the "secret information" reason and later he admittedly changed his vote just to change to the person with the most votes.

So yeah, I get kind of suspicious of someone who votes multiple people without having an articulate case for thinking they are scummy.

@MO:

Fair enough, I get what you are saying. I acknowledge that there are times when being too close with information hurts town. I am just worried because this game set-up is not straightforward some things are giving me pause. For example, we do not yet know what the mafia actually is - what if scum is a group of mortals who want to kill gods? But even more worrisome is the cult. Laying out all the powers could allow them to quickly get some powerful gods on their side, which could be pretty bad.

That said, I'll keep an open mind and if there's a workable plan that is agreed on, I will go with it.

[Katy]

Nobody answered my question about why Darkstalker is scum. I don't trust anybody on that wagon.

Because DS came into the game this day all "Hey guys let's waste our lynch on the person sitting in limbo who can't defend herself or use actions."

I don't know why a town player would be worried about someone in limbo. If Mina is scum (which I don't think is the case) then she's the least scary of scum because she doesn't contribute anything to them but a body right now. If she is town then she is adding to our body count for winning even she can't participate in the thread.

[Katy]

Ugh, I had some days off (adn I hate getting on the internet on my days off) and when I did check the board it was when the server was being transferred). Am trying to catch up again and will post when I am done, prob tomorrow.

I'm intrigued by the Chronopie arguments so I'm definitely taking a look back at that because I've kind of missed him in the noise.

I wasn't really doubting ABR's census, but I guess that kind of proves it. I've never played in a game with this kind of mechanic before, is it a regular night action, like will we be able to keep a running tally on alignments in the game?

[Katy]

While I disagree with Fate's assertion that we need to lynch the survivor now, I don't really see it as a scum move, especially when taken in context with his play so far this game. It's entirely consistent with how he's been playing the whole time. So yeah, I'm not going to lynch Plum but I also don't think it's a great idea to immediately leap to lynching Fate.

I've taken a look at chronopie (you can kind of iso people using the advanced search, although you get their posts for all games within the subforum - but it tells you the topic at the side so it's not too hard to separate as long as they're not in a ton of games) and I had totally forgotten about his claim. I believe his claim but I think his power is suspiciously neutral in alignment as, depending on how it works, it's just as likely to be a power that could help scum as help town. I'm also worried about the possibility of him being able to resurrect people and recruit them. Add to that his: "let's just lynch this guy and I'll res him if we're wrong, lol" which seems rather lackadaisical for town, especially since there's no guarantee he will be able to use his power if we did need it for that reason. Add to that the fact that his posting is consistent with "active lurking" which is usually my best scumtell - I agree with whoever said it that he's posting a lot about roles and game set-up and mechanics and not a lot of analysis of other players.

Unvote
Vote: Chronopie

[Katy]

So ... Blaze comes into a QT and asks ... who he should kill? That does not seem good no matter what angle you try to look at it from. Even if he's just in over his head, I don't see how asking who to kill makes him pro-town if he is not a vig.

I believe the alignment cop thing though so I'm trying to figure out how those two pieces of info jive. It's possible Blaze is the godfather, I guess. I'm pretty torn on this right now, because that just seems blatantly anti-town, but that's up against an innocent result on him.

@Blaze

: Why did you ask who to kill in the QT? What did you mean by that question?

[Katy]

One huge thing we'd love for you to clear up -- your slot was lynched D1. The lynch didn't happen. Then your slot's originator was replaced, but the replacement never posted and again was replaced (by you).

So, to start -- why are you still alive? Is it something you did, or something someone else did?

He addressed that:

I have no fucking clue, which is actually part of what my role says.

Not very enlightening, but there's your answer.

@Xite

: There's no more voting shift, you can vote for the person you intend to.

This game is very unwieldy, with like 50% greatposting and 50% distracting weirdness. I have sympathy for replacements it's pretty hard to follow.

Blaze

why do you keep getting hung up on the godfather stuff? The only reason why people are speculating that you MAY be a godfather is because there's a sane innocent result on you, so you're either town or GF. Sure, flavorwise it wouldn't make sense - IF Norse gods were the scum group, but only scum knows who they are at this point of why they are grouped together. If scum is a mix of different gods and men, as we speculate it might be for gameplay's sake, then anyone could be a GF. But people saying you might be GF has nothing to do with anything else they say about hammers or otherwise - it's because it's the only way you are scum right now given the info we have.

It IS hard not to see you as a bit scummy because you aren't communicating clearly. You came out and claimed a power but now having done that are being vague and confusing about it, which makes it hard to understand anything you are saying in relation to it. It comes across as scummy because you first claimed a roleblocker, then when people said that was just as likely a scum role, suddenly you said no, your role was something different but you've been incredibly vague as to what it actually is and now are refusing to say more.

I'm still reluctant to switch votes because I can easily see all this as just poor play by someone who doesn't want to take the effort to try to understand this large game with so much going on it. I'm not a lyncher so godfather hunting isn't a priority to me, and the "innocent" result really gives me pause. I'd rather wait and see on Blaze, because I think I understand his explanation for the "slip" and with the town result I'm willing to hold off and give him some more time.

Can someone give me a case on

totallynotmafia

? People are voting for him, like "yeah, I can get behind this" but I'm having a hard time grasping why and I think it's the only person where I seem to have missed any case on him.

[Katy]

Don't bother wasting your shot on me, must I constantly remind you?

Actually, I think that makes you a good choice. If the vig doesn't work then it weighs slightly in your favor, and if it does, then you were lying and good riddance, since that probably makes you scum.

I'd also agree with Dramonic, DS, or Manho from S_B's list in addition to CMAR, as my choices for a vig.

I'm not worshipping anyone this time as it seems pointless for me to do so, and since I technically did send in a worship yesterday, maybe my not sending in a worship at all today will be helpful to see if there's a difference.

[Katy]

Oh wow I just remembered.
I used my weak track on Inhim and got no result. So I do think that means he was GF.

Did you get a PM from the mod at all? I also got no result last night and I was thinking that the result is delayed because of Beholder's message in the day message and that I will get it at daybreak when the mass RB is lifted. I got no PM at all. Oh wait, just saw your last message, wonder why I received nothing last night? May have to bug mod anyway.

I'd like to know the results of ABR's census.

Also, need to go back and look at Inhim/Percy although from what I remember there wasn't much to look at. Will post more tomorrow after looking back.

[Katy]

Yep, got my PM now. Now I need to look at some other stuff for homework.

Lottery: Sundial

[Katy]

I'll deal with Snowy, for now, but am not entirely convinced that there are no shenanigans going around. She'd assume a redirector might claim or it might have been madness that no one could or would claim which caused it, and that given that inHim was the GF and that he was on her original list she might as well try to make the most of it. Basically, I'm not willing to declare her almost surely Town because of this.

I agree with this totally. I am uncomfortable with saying there's no way S_B could have been lying. That said, I also agree with MO that it's S_B is very limited as to what she can do. Since that's an area we have under control, I don't see it as being very urgent and aside from her N1 kill, she seems to be pro-town, coming out and claiming her kill right away, so I am not hugely worried about the chance that she is lying here.

Everything dramonic has mentioned in the thread about limbo is what he told me. He did tell me I was his meatshield, and we were chatting in a QT all day. When I saw that I'd been placed in limbo, I thought it was because the scum wanted to shut me up...but no, apparently dramonic just suspected me. Our QT was called an interrogation room, and Kinetic's opening post said it was a place for [insert role name] to interrogate his captives (which implies I'm a suspect, although Kinetic might have been deliberately misleading). That said, I kind of have to do mental gymnastics to understand how the flavor of his role fits with his abilities.

Hmm ... I have some info about Dram and my reaction is the same yours as regards not understanding how flavor fits with abilities. My info is fairly vague though, and doing some research, I came up with a possibility (having something to do with Batman), but I don't know anything for sure. The info I got doesn't really tell me anything about his alignment either. I mean, it sounds good, like a townie kind of thing, but it's far from clear how the flavor works with alignments in this game at this point. All we know is that gods can be scum since it's fairly certain Percy/Inhim was GF. Unless he was GF

because

he was a god ... bleh I don't know, I have a feeling making assumptions is bad news in this game.

Him claiming his limbo ability doesn't really weigh in his favor, since his limbo-ees would know who he was so it's not like he could keep it a secret for long. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because if I look at hints in his and Mina's posts, I do think the info I received about him matches what they are saying and not saying and I think at least he is not lying in what he has said so far.

Everyone was blocked. And I say that because you've done nothing all game.

No, not everyone was blocked. Everyone should be blocked tonight (and today). My action went through although I didn't receive my PM until after day had started.

There really is nothing much from Percy/Inhim. He voted for Raj, declared SpyreX town and was kind of vague about anything else. I know Percy is quite clever scum but with so few posts and only one vote, I can't really say whether I think that makes Raj likelier town or scum. I could see Percy bussing at that point, or picking on an easy target townie.

Guess I'll go back and give my other suspects from yesterday (DS and CMAR) a look.

[Katy]

Is your information just role-based? Is that the situation with O/Xite, too? I guess he has an obvtown role? Use discretion, etc.

Well this question was resolved, and I think it's best if I don't really explain more. I'm still trying to figure out exactly what the info I get relates to myself because it's a bit ambiguous. I do still think Orto/Xite is good - part of what I got on him is that he is a benevolent spirit and I have a hard time seeing that as scummy. With Dram it is more ambiguous mostly because what I have seems like a good, pro-town sort of thing but doesn't seem to mesh with what he claimed yesterday regarding his role. However, Mina and he have both now made comments to that effect.

The fact that her limbo was an interrogation room complicates things because I can only find one thing by researching that fits both that flavor and what I've got and if what I found relates to Dramonic's role (which I can't be sure) then basically I can't really say what Dram's alignment is based on my info. SO it's basically useless at the moment except that I don't think he or Mina have lied about anything they've said.

After some review and looking at what's happened, I think CMAR, raj and TNM are the people I have to look at. I think my problems with DarkStalker have been explained enough that I feel better about them and I think a lot of my problem has to do with the "multiple-personality" effect of a hydra so I'm okay to let them go for now. Did anyone ever explain the case on totallynotmafia (aside from Percy speculation)? I recall not really getting it before, he just hasn't stood out to me before, except of course that handle just begs for people to vote for him.

[Katy]

All right, taken a look at the people I said I would and these things stood out to me:

Totallynotmafia

:

This guy is just not jumping out as scum to me. The only things I noticed when reading him were:

(1) some weirdness regarding the gods - at the beginning he refers to "my gods" as if he has gods that he worships. This is strange to me since I get the idea that there are gods and mortals, but that the mortals aren't actually connected to specific gods.

(2) The fact that he voted DS for wanting to lynch Mina, but advocated for her to be vigged. There's not a huge amount of difference between those two suggestions - both involve killing someone who can't defend themselves and was little danger at the time.

This is a pretty weaksauce case to base a vote on though, in my opinion. I'll continue to keep an eye on him since so many people seem to be flagging him but I don't feel comfortable putting a vote here now.

Raj

:

I find Raj hard to analyze. He's not posting a whole lot and his posts are kind of shorthand like he's just dumping his notes into the thread. The stuff that stands out most to me were his lack of reading in the thread. This thread is full of content and confusing info, so I can understand skimming some, but he actually placed a vote based on just a quick skim. I would think a townie placing a vote would at least make sure they were getting the facts of their case straight.

He also indicated he wanted to vote for Dramonic but didn't want to "end the day yet." At that point there were all of two votes on Dramonic. He voted for DarkStalker in that same post, giving DS five votes.

That's a totally nonsensical sequence of events and if he is scum that is a big link between he and Dramonic - saying "yeah I support this bandwagon but I won't join it because I don't want a lynch!" and then joining a larger a bandwagon.

FOS: Raj

I would put my vote here, except I'm a bit uncertain because I can't tell if he's scum or town that just really doesn't have his head in the game at all. Plus, there is:

CMAR

I think CMAR had around the same amount of content as Raj (at least both their isos fit on one page) but I found more that sticks out with him:

(1) He gave a joke answer to ABR's question about scum. So technically he addressed it, but he never gave a real answer.

(2) He claims to be "important to town." It seems pretty clear that we have mega power roles in this game so I don't think anyone has reason to believe they are extra special. The only person who might be able to claim this and get away with it is ABR, who has unambiguously provided a useful tool for us to use.

(3) In addressing Iecerint's suspicions to him, he admits to being insincere and that it doesn't fit his town meta but claims that is "struggling to keep up" mode. Seems weird - if someone was struggling to keep up wouldn't they try a bit harder rather than just be jokey. It seems much more like scum trying to maintain a presence in the game without having to try to fake scumhunt in this confusing mess.

(4) Uses "his role" as an excuse to avoid scumhunting and just go "nah nah nah you can't kill me" claiming this is the best play for town. I can't conceive of a way that this is good for town, but I can think of lots of ways it is an easy out for scum. The scenario is a player who allegedly cannot be killed. Instead of keeping quiet about this and playing aggressively since he doesn't have to worry about drawing the kill, he puts it out there and tries to deflect a vig kill on himself. I am not getting at all how this is pro town.

(5) Also he's been fixating on the Great Old Ones, but not since the beginning, it happened suddenly. This seems weird since if he was one he would know about them from the beginning. I also don't understand how he is so sure they are all town. We already have evidence of one god almost certainly being scum.

Vote: CMAR

[Katy]

Crap, formatting rules.

Vote: CMAR

[Katy]

hahah you have to be kidding me ....

Vote: CMAR

I'm really on the ball today. Sorry for the triple post.

[Katy]

Might as well do this now.

@Chronopie - I don't think we have a QT - I'm not in one either.

Rolename: Anubis (Goa'uld - Stargate)
God\Mortal: God
Any Worship Modifiers: Worship counts for zero
Worship vote N1: Egypt
Worship vote N2: None
Faction (if any): Egyptian
Ability: It doesn't quote fit standard abilities so I'll just paraphrase - I go another plane during the night and during that time I get info about my target.
T1 target: Ortolan/Flipscythe/Xite ("benevolent spirit")
T2 target: Dramonic (not revealing before Dramonic has claimed)
Ability (if your faction gets worship votes): If Egyptians have worship I am immortal due to my Goa'uld powers. I can also transfer my Goa'uld self to another host (ie another player) and give the effect to them.

[Katy]

I just got a PM that an item has come to me. The way the PM was phrased it seems that the item chose to come to me, at least the phrasing does not indicate that anyone gave it to me, but that the item itself chose me.

I am not sure if this is related to the lottery or if this is a different game mechanic, it didn't say anything about the lottery in my PM.

Never mind, it's clear from the note on the vote count that I am a lottery winner. Hurray!

It looks like the item is related to the Angels by flavor, in that it has a spirit companion, and it matches the flavor of their claimed abilities in the language. My guess was sundial (I thought the items might be coming from the graveyard and in looking for an item associated with SpyreX, the closest I found was sundial). My item is not a sundial, however, and it doesn't seem to be from the GOO so I'm not totally sure how I ended up winning it. I'm going to wait on revealing more about the item at this point because I'm not sure if it's a great idea to give mafia all the info about all the abilities floating around out there. I haven't used it yet.

Unvote

I'm willing to give Adumbrodeus some time to get going in the game and re-evaluate. This re-direct stuff is really confusing me and I haven't had time to properly look at all the claimed actions so I think I will do that, but for now, I will put my vote on the other person I found quite scummy after my read.

Vote: Raj

Care to answer why you didn't want to vote Dramonic because of claims of being cautious about getting to a lynch, but in the same post you did place a vote on someone who actually had more votes than Dramonic?

Also, I've been trying to look at all the claimed and known alignments and their distribution among gods, especially and I noticed something:
ABR's census on Day 2 accounts for 25 players. As of Day 2 (if this census was performed after night kills) we should have had 26 players, shouldn't we? Did we address this and I missed it?

[Katy]

My message specifically told me that my info was about Ortolan and I had targeted the person two above him. Also, I've already explained exactly what info I got on Orto/Xite--my info told me it was a "benevolent spirit" from which I concluded that this role was aligned with town. Now Xite has claimed as a spirit so that seems to match with the info I got.

Also, I have full claimed so I don't know what you are talking about there. I've claimed absolutely everything about myself, except for two things. One was my result on Dramonic, which I didn't want to say before he had claimed, but Mina was able to pick up on the fact that my info told me he was a white knight.

The only thing now that I haven't claimed is the details on the item I received from the lottery. If someone can give me a really good reason why I should claim that, or if pressured by consensus, I will, but I think it's better for town not to right now.

Here's what I remember about Xite off the top of my head:

- Brought into the game from replacement list
- Couldn't be lynched day 1
- Doesn't seem to know alignment
- Claims to be able to vote and speak in the thread but no other abilities including no worship
- Claims to have a win condition that is secret even from him

Add this to the fact that we have one player missing from ABR's census and I think Xite is that player. I agree with Alba that the best explanation for the non-lynching is that she is already a ghost. I trust in the info I received for now and Xite hasn't really given me any reason not to trust it.

[Katy]

Mina

Oh yeaaah. I was looking at night 1 deaths when I tried to match up the census to people and forgot that there was someone in limbo. That must be it, since the rules state that the player in limbo cannot be targeted by any abilities (but can be voted or lynched). And since it didn't count the killed players, it makes the most sense that it would also not count the limbo-ed player.

[Katy]

Katy seems a particularly likely choice for Cult Leader (though Fate would also fit).

Well, the only response I can give you to that is that I have a Daybreak action, which I have been demonstrably using - doesn't leave me much time for recruiting cult members overnight.

If Katy is a flavour cop why the hell is she so certain about Ghost guy being town? Wait. flavour? DAMN YOU CANADIAN!

Because my flavor message told me he was benevolent. I have never played in a mafia game where scum was benevolent. Just in case, "benevolent" means "good." It seems kind of weird to me if if Xite were scum that the mod would tell me he is a good spirit.

cautiousness came from dramonic acting a little scummy and me just having my eye on him. my vote ended up being placed because of the actual scummy habbits of DarkStalker. i thought that DS actually did deserve my vote where Dramonic deserved an FOS.
i worded it weirdly i know. but i stand by my vote.

Yeah, that's not really how you said it in your post but again ... I really cannot tell if you are scummy or you are basically just skimming through this game.

Your post was:

dramonic bandwagon.
i support it. i will join later. but i think we need to discuss more before we even get close to ending the day.

(there were two votes on Dramonic at that point.)

Then just below that you say:

Darkstalker.
top of the ooba list and is wanting to kill someone that cant defend thierself.

vote: DarkStalker

(there were five votes on DS at this point).

It's really inconsistent but like I said, I can't tell if it's scummy (and if either you or Dram flips scum, then that's a big link between the two of you) or if it's just that you're lazy and not paying attention.

On the other hand, that is a good point about the fact that the census can deal with raj.

Unvote

Now it's back to the drawing board I guess to look at the claims a bit more closely and then do some more reading.

If your item affects abilities, you should claim it.

It doesn't affect any abilities.

I don't really have any comments on the worship plan. My worship vote doesn't count and it seems like there are potentially helpful powers in all the groups. I would have liked it best if Norse could get worship since we at least know that one scum is dead out of that group, but obviously the census power is way too useful to do that. I'm not sure how I feel about one person choosing and directing everyone in how to vote, but I guess it's more up to the people whose votes count to agree or disagree with the worship choice.

Also, please note my sig - I am off for the holiday weekend. Will have internet access but doubt I will be using it much as ... well, it's a holiday weekend.

[Katy]

Iec's ability is useless (deathproof, woohoo. More like vigproof). Since it's just him and ABR in that group, you'd have to have a decent reason for thinking that Iec being deathproof is more important than ABR's census for people to follow a Norse worship plan.
And about me directing people how to vote... I asked for input, didn't I? You're not even helping with the plan. You're like that guy who doesn't vote in the federal election and then wonders why Bush Jr. gets elected a second time.

Look, I wasn't accusing you of anything when I said I didn't like one guy directing people how to vote, I just would prefer if more people give input on who votes for who if they also feel this would be a useful tool for evaluating the game. I don't really have input myself on who should worship who because this tool doesn't help me at all--I don't think I can find scum from it. I would be just as happy if we picked who we want to have worship and just direct everyone to vote for that faction.

The only thing that buged the fuck out of me was Raj's claim (and Kat's claim after claiming results after Xine's claim and Dram's pretty much full claim yesterday)

1. Kat: Did you bread crumb your result on Dram's name to link to his White Knight Claim? I don't remember seeing one in the inital claim. If anything your result reads as withholding information before Dram's claim.

I claimed my result on Orto/Xite way before he claimed anything. If you iso me, you can see that I stated my result on him about 8 jillion times before he ever claimed.

I did talk about my result on Dramonic before he claimed here in response to Mina:

Hmm ... I have some info about Dram and my reaction is the same yours as regards not understanding how flavor fits with abilities. My info is fairly vague though, and doing some research, I came up with a possibility (having something to do with Batman), but I don't know anything for sure. The info I got doesn't really tell me anything about his alignment either. I mean, it sounds good, like a townie kind of thing, but it's far from clear how the flavor works with alignments in this game at this point

Dramonic had already claimed to Mina and she could tell what my result was just from what I said there:

Katy, I'm pretty sure I know what it is you know about dramonic...and nope, it isn't a Batman reference. According to dramonic, it's far more obvious than that.

The breadcrumb is the reference to Batman. When I was trying to figure out how my result squared with Dram's claim about his powers I googled white knight and one of the references I got was Harvey Dent from Batman, which I thought might fit with the "interrogation room" thing that was being claimed.

[Katy]

Katy, your information on dramonic was his role name ("White Knight"). But Xite91 claims he's a "Wayward Spirit," not just a "benevolent spirit." Are you saying his role name was "benevolent spirit"?

Well, my role PM does not explicitly state that I am a rolecop - it has the name of my power and then it tells me that I get important information about my target while I am in this higher state at night. My info on Dramonic turned out to be his role name, but I've double checked my PM once again and what it says about Ortolan is that he is a benevolent spirit. I am not 100% sure whether that is supposed to be the role name but if my next result is also a role name then yeah, I would say benevolent spirit was Orto's role name and I'm not sure then, why Xite has claimed a role name of Wayward Spirit instead unless the role changed somehow--which may explain his unknown win condition. If Xite's role changed at some point from benevolent spirit to wayward spirit, well ... I don't know then, that's a bit worrying.

Uhm, no. I think ooba was the only player voting me at that time. Then raj started voting me. Then IEC and TNM joined the wagon in the posts right after Raj's. And later you joined the wagon. Go here:
viewtopic.php?p=2307487#p2307487
and retrace the game flow for yourself from right after DS(Ani)'s post. While "why Raj was worried voting dram would end the day quickly with 3 votes" is still a mystery it is not an inconsistency when compared to his treatement of me. 3rd on wagon vs 2nd on wagon.

Okay thanks ... I had looked at the vote count and for some reason thought it was made closer to Raj's post and didn't realize how many of those votes happened after Raj's post. So that does explain the second part, but still doesn't explain the weird excuse to not vote Dram. It makes it a bit less scummy though. And then I read this:

Well he says he has a different win condition than town and my census on Night 1 says otherwise. He probably missed what I said so he said that and he's scum.

Oh really. Can you quote where you are getting this from, because there seems to be some debate about whether this is true. I don't see it in his claim and in isoing him I can't find where he says he has a different win condition from town. What makes you think he has claimed a separate win condition? Are you thinking of Xite, who has claimed a secret condition?

Also, the info DTM has given about his item matches how mine works. I am bound to my item now and can use it. My item's abilities do not match any previously claimed abilities, though.

[Katy]

Just in case this affects anything, I did vote for Egyptians on Night 1 and only on Night 2 I abstained from voting. I went ahead and voted who I said I would Night 1 since I wasn't sure what ABR's plan was going to do. I am not sure if my vote actually shows up on the tally if it counts for nothing.

[Katy]

Now I'm being reminded why I voted Darkstalker before.

You might want to ask for a more detailed summary of what's going on in the thread from your partner, because Mina IS back in the game and we've got a lot more information on her than we did when she was in limbo, including her full role claim and the different QTs she is or was in. In other words, killing Mina is still a bad idea, at least as far as I'm concerned and it concerns me that you would continue to advocate someone's death when you don't appear to be reading the thread.

If people want Xite gone and are worried about the lynch thing, well we have a vig ... the thing Mina brought up about the difference between my result and the role he claims now (as well as the unknown win condition) makes me want to look at Xite again. I need to figure out where my vote should go.

[Katy]

Well, the only thing keeping me from voting Raj was the idea of using ABR's census to out him for sure, but I do feel more comfortable about him as a lynch over anyone else. I'm fine to get back on board this one.

Vote: Raj

Raj thinks scum are on both his wagon and CMAR's. Interesting. That's a fairly big link to CMAR if Raj flips scum, but the question is, would Raj try to defend a buddy in that way, or is that a false trail? His play seems awfully lazy, but at the same time I'm not sure that scum would put forth a defense of their buddy like that if they are also under suspicion. I'll have to think about that some more.

[Katy]

@DarkStalker, I think that you can make a three person QT for tonight including yourself. I'd like to officially go on record as saying that I would like to be in a quick topic of that sort with either Katy, Albert B. Rampage or someone you thought was scummy who I haven't mentioned up till now in this post.

That would be awesome, I've been feeling lonely what with all the behind the scenes action everyone is getting.

On the subject of ABR, I feel he has to be telling the truth about his power although - now that I think about it - just because his power was kind of confirmed by Plum/Pom we actually do not know that he is telling the whole truth about the alignment breakdown. It would be easy enough to just lie about the numbers if he was some kind of third-party role or is scum. And the fact that he is Loki and that he seems to be set against the rest of the Norse as far as worship goes IS kind of suspect. There's also the fact that there's a clear anomaly between his results and the number of players and his input has only obfuscated any speculation on why that is.

On the other hand, we already have a scum flipped from Norse gods, along with two mortal scum. It think what I may do is look within the other god groups and try to pick out who I think is most likely scum from each, but as time goes by there is definitely more reason to be wary of ABR. If he is not town though, I feel like he's more likely to be some kind of third party than to be mafia and that's less of a priority for me to think about.

Why wasn't raj on the tnm wagon? Being on that wagon was probably the only way for him to save himself.
I'll give a QT to anyone who wants one tonight.

This is a actually a good question ... either he felt his lynch was inevitable and didn't bother to try too hard to save himself, or if the only alternative was a buddy perhaps he decided to just take the hit instead.

For the sake of testing voting,

Vote: ABR

because there's something off there.

But I'm going to have a look at all the gods more closely and see if I can't figure out which are good mafia candidates.

[Katy]

Ugh, it was my birthday weekend and I haven't looked at the thread in a while. I'm confused on the DarkStalker stuff so I'm going to have to look back and see exactly what is going on with that. I was suspicious of DS in the past, but he was able to respond well and his later posting had me thinking he is town again. I feel like there is a weird hybrid affect where I really like one person's contributions to the games and not so much the other and after each person posts I vacillate on whether they are obvtown or superscummy.

I agree that Tar is almost certainly town. It would have to be a really weird game for him to be scum.

@Tarhalindur, given that ooba is confirming that totallynotmafia did have a doctor ability via item does that change your opinion on how likely he is to be scum given that your role needed to kill the godfather in a very limited amount of time or get removed from the game. I could see some form of limited unkillability on the part of the godfather that you and DTMaster were able to bypass with your nightkills but unless your shots were unstoppable (and you haven't indicated that they were) an explicitly protective role with no strings like a doctor seems overpowered for the mafia to have in terms of thwarting you in particular.

That assumes that mafia would know there was someone specifically gunning for the GF. If GF had investigation immunity, and if Tar had not claimed his role then mafia very well could have saved the doctor protect for whoever was ripest for a vig. It also depends on how the mod wanted to balance Tar/DTM's chances of success. With such a power-heavy game, the mod may have wanted it to be more difficult for the lynchers to succeed if he felt that would give town an advantage. I mean so far it seems like we're doing pretty well, so maybe it was meant to be difficult for them to succeed.

That said, I never saw much of a case on tnm in the first place, but a lot of stuff has happened since then. I intend to look at he and VV both. Sorry I've been slacking, the last couple of weeks have been really busy and it's been hard to keep track of all the details with this game.

[Katy]

This post has so much of fluff in it. (In fact all of it is non-committal ambiguous statements - even the Tar is town has an "almost" in it).
i) "If the mafia knew that someone was gunning for the GF" and "if Tar had not claimed his role" is irrelevant because he did it in the very first post of the game.
ii) I do not see how balanced it would be with a doc protecting the GF. (Unless their kill was "unstoppable" - umm, Tar\DTM can you confirm this please - would go some way in reaffirming my tnm read). If not, they are basically lynchers who do not know who their target is and whose kills are useless.

Congratulations by committing the "I-dont-want-to-semi-clear-townies-because-that-makes-my-life-tougher" tell, you have just risen to my number one candidate for mafia. Now I'll have to think if your buddying up to Iece was scum on scum or scum on town.

Okay this is the second time someone has claimed a "scumtell" on me for being noncommittal after I specifically posted about a circumstance that made me in need of catching up with the game. The first time was when I was on vacation and got far behind but wanted to respond to some things, and this time - same thing, I was busy for several days and I wanted to get back in the game but needed to reread stuff before I became "committal." If you look back at my posting you can see that I fluctuate when I have less time or more time about how deeply I can look at the game, that's just the way it is, this game is time-consuming. Some days I wish I was Fate and could just come on and post "BLAAAAHBLABLA" and be done with it, but I'm not. Once I look at things closely enough I have no problem committing to who I think is scum and town but when I'm not sure I understand everything yet, of course I'm noncommittal. I'm not the kind of player who just votes for anyone, I have to think about it carefully.

Secondly, I was responding to speculation about game balance and whether it would be balanced to give the mod a doc given that their were lynchers in the game. The mod decides game balance issues before the game starts, so what happened in someone's first post is irrelevant - the mod decided whether roles would be balanced before knowing when people would claim, so that's not a rebuttal to my speculation at all. The speculation that the presence of a lyncher makes a mafia doc too OP assumes that the lyncher would always be known and that a mafia doc would always protect the GF. But I don't know that these two things can be assumed before the game even starts, which is when roles are created.

Now on to my actual reads:

TNM

There wasn't much more here than what I looked at last time. It doesn't seem like he put the greatest amount of thought behind his doc protections and at the beginning of the game he gave off a very "oh I'm clueless!" vibe, but his posting feels genuine to me and in particular his post 2302 and post 2352 have analysis that is really good and if DS is scum, then I'm pretty sure TNM isn't.

VasuVeda

I am looking at him mostly because of the similar/overlapping role claims and because he's been totally off my radar, so it's probably a good idea to take a look while I'm thinking about it. First of all, in looking over the claims, I don't think the ability overlaps are that significant. It seems there are a lot of overlaps and powers that are similar or have similar mechanics. Anyway, if I had to choose between two people with similar powers, I'd rather lynch the claimed miller whose iso was TWELVE PAGES long and really hard to wade through for info and phrases everything in the most ambiguous and unclear manner possible.

As for VV himself, things I noticed are: his persistence about S_B. Right now she is a pretty good tool since town has lots of ways to control her kill so I find someone gunning for her so hard to be suspect.

There's also something a little off about his power - it requires so many circumstances to be right - worship and then the target has to survive the night to get the delayed protect that it seems like it would work better for someone who could communicate with other people than for a regular town player. The way it's described it seems almost random if you could ever get it to actually protect someone.

Not only that, but we know he targeted S_B when he claims to have targeted someone else. Maybe there is a secret redirector in this game, or maybe he is lying about his power. He's been going hard after S_B so there's no way he would protect her unless he was either scum bussing during the day and protecting at night, or if he was actually doing something else with his action besides protecting. None of DarkStalker's explanations make any sense to me - I don't agree with his understanding of the mechanics involved. I also don't feel comfortable with assuming that scum definitely did something when we have no other evidence that scum role exists. VV claims he protected someone and he was observed targeting someone else - someone he would not protect based on his behavior in the game. I think he's lying about something - I think he's lying about what his power does and using a cover that makes it look okay for him to target pro-town players.

Vote: Vasudeva

Darkstalker

DS is really hard to read, some of the posts are extremely long and from what I gathered looking at where individual players of the hydra were referenced, Pokerface feels town and Ani feels scum. All of this Cthulhu stuff feels like absolute nonsense though, and I'm getting the feeling that scumz are creating a huge distraction with this. We have no reason to believe that Cthulhu is in this game except for speculation from day one before we were familiar with flavor for any factions besides those we were personally in.

What's weird about this is that there are plenty of reasons to think DS is scummy. His powers aren't obviously pro-town and it's true that he used the ABR thing as an excuse to get off Raj. There was also his willingness to lynch Mina willy-nilly before. But I find this whole Cthulhu accusation very strange, especially considering we have ample reason to believe he is telling the truth about his role and the question of whether he is scum is independent of that. My vote would be on DarkStalker but for the fact that this last page makes me very worried that scum has drummed up this whole "maybe he's cult and Cthulhu" because they know he's not scum.

FOS: Ooba

[Katy]

@ooba, yeah but I claimed to have watched Snow_Bunny prior to that:

Last night I used a one shot watch ability on Snow_Bunny. Three players targeted her. I can account for Mighty Orbots with the watch. The other two would have been slightly more clear if she'd claimed to have tried to have killed anyone else.

Besides, if she wouldn't flip cult after a recruit then why not claim to have protected her anyhow? If she'd flip town anyhow then, as cult, he'd have every reason to claim to have protected her.

*preview edit* That latest post by VasudeVa does indicate that he missed my first watch claim. It still doesn't explain why he'd lie about his protection if we don't think recruits will flip cult.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Except that he's been pretty vocal against S_B in the thread. So it would not make sense for him to claim targeting her even if he knew he had been watched. If he knew he'd been seen targeting S_B when his in-game actions didn't correspond to that night action, his best bet was to claim targeting someone else and act confused about how his target got moved elsewhere.

By claiming that he targeted someone else, even knowing that Snow_Bunny was watched, he causes all sorts of speculation about a mafia redirector and what exactly happened.

[Katy]

@Katy, I agree that VasudeVa's been very vocal against Snow_Bunny but I think that started after I said that he targeted her (correct me if I'm forgetting something he said previous to that.) If he targeted Snow_Bunny and he's willing to try to get her lynched then why not claim he targeted her anyhow? If he targeted someone else then he was redirected and the confusion isn't an act.

So far as I can tell you seem to think that he knew he was targeting Snow_Bunny and lied to say that he targeted someone else. If that's the case then what do you think his targeting did? It didn't stop the kill or kill Snow_Bunny. I can account for the other two people that targeted Snow_Bunny so I'm not sure what scum get out of it (unless you think that he's some scum investigative role that's pulling this fake claim.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Actually, you are right, VasuDeva did not suspect S_B until after it was revealed that his action targeted her. I had thought he was not believing her before, but those were actually Plum's posts I was remembering, which changes my whole perception of events.

I am willing to hold off on VasuDeva, because I don't know why he wouldn't just claim a protect on S_B if he did it (and knew S_B was watched). I am just wary of assuming mafia actions that we don't know for sure exist. But I've got my eye on him now and that should be good enough.

Unvote

It looks like Chronopie and DS are the two leading bandwagons, although I would really love to put my vote back on ABR. I really dislike that Loki claim. Will compare Chrono and DS though, as neither one of them have given me town vibes and I think it's definitely possible that either are scum.

[Katy]

Meh, keep forgetting the red.

Unvote

[Katy]

Well, that makes my decision a lot easier.

Vote: DarkStalker

I will worship JCA as per the list.

[Katy]

Faraday, what did you do last night?

Will discuss targets and anything else after this question is answered.

[Katy]

Faraday, what did you do last night?

Will discuss targets and anything else after this question is answered.

No. You will answer first, on penalty of death.

Geez, all right.

The reason I asked is because someone redirected me last night. My targets were Vasudeva for role cop and Fate for my item ability (and no, my item is not an energy gun, it is a Dowsing Pendulum).

Both of these actions were re-directed to Snow Bunny, since my results both came back for Snow Bunny (Role name: Lucky Dirak, Ability name (result from Dowsing Pendulum): Oversoul). Since Snow Bunny is dead, I think somebody's setting me up, since I now can't prove I went anywhere else but to her. If I have to get lynched behind that, well, there's nothing more I can say except to point out that the same thing has happened the previous night to someone else, but obviously the kill part of the plan didn't work.

This is why I asked Faraday, and why I wanted his answer before I said. Because if he did not do it, then we do have another redirector, and I now believe Vasudeva was redirected to Snow Bunny the night before and wasn't lying about his action.

[Katy]

So now Katy is claiming Role Cop? Weren't you supposed to be a Flavour Cop?
Also, Mina has claimed Role Cop. If there were two town role cops, I'd be very surprised.

My role PM never specified what type of info I was going to get, so after my first result I did not know what I was getting was a role name. "Benevolent Spirit" did not seem like a role name to me. The two other results I have gotten are role names, though.

It's interesting that you're quick to say that someone "set you up." No one could prove that you were REALLY redirected to Snow_Bunny unless a redirector claimed and you'd happened to have been tracked. How would we know that you'd targeted Snow_Bunny last night?

Also, you realize that the person redirected on N2 was a claimed protective role? So how would that plan have worked?

And finally, come up with a damn good explanation for the discrepancy between "wayward spirit," "benevolent spirit," and "zombie."

Well, it's moot now, because I don't believe that Faraday was doing anything sinister, but given that VV had appeared to be redirected to Snow Bunny unless he was lying about his target, and then I was redirected to Snow Bunny, who turned up dead in the morning, I thought something fishy was going on. I thought I was set up, because in taking away my real targets from me, the redirector would have left me with no way to clear myself by giving my results from the night. If it was somebody or some group that knew what the kill flavor would be, then I would be a good person to set up that way since the energy weapon thing does fit with a sci-fi character.

I have no explanation for that last thing because all I have is my result from night one, which was "benevolent spirit." I have no idea what is up with the other stuff and I don't know where zombie is coming from. *shrug* I think it's up to Lynchmepls to explain all that, since I have nothing to do with it, beyond having investigated that role on night one and given my result when I thought it was significant.

However, given that the people playing the role have themselves been inconsistent with their role name and the ambiguous nature of the win condition, which was not revealed to us, perhaps the role (and win condition) are changeable. I was not lying about my result, no matter what result you claim to have received.

Katy, please pass your item to me.

No. I am willing to pass my item to someone, but I don't trust you. I will pass it to Tarlahindur.

I also think that Tar is right on target with his speculation about Dram. It has never made sense that he's simply a White Knight from chess given his powers. Especially when there is a flavor role that matches with what he does (interrogates people). I think he is trying to hide the fact that he is Two-Face aka Harvey Dent the White Knight and I am guessing there is more that goes with that role that he is hiding.

Vote: Dramonic

[Katy]

@Katy, and now that I read your claim again it looks like I did misread. What does it take for you to use your oversoul ability on the item? Was the list of abilities from Snow_Bunny supposed to be exhaustive or was it just one ability you learned the name of?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

In order to use the oversoul ability, I had to first use the item's normal ability three times. Once I that's done that it activates the oversoul ability, which prevents the item's ability from stopped or redirected. In other words it would hit the chosen target no matter what. Since last night was the first night I used it, I didn't have the oversoul power yet.

Using the item gives me the name of one ability that the target has. It gave me the ability name of "Oversoul" for Snow Bunny.

While I'm on the subject, this is something I want to get out in case I get vigged or something. I chose Fate as my original target for this ability because I thought out of the scum we have left, cult leader would definitely be lying about an ability, since he/she would have some sort of recruit. I think Fate is a very likely cult leader not only because of his "doesn't really give a shit" playstyle, but also his role flavor combined with game flavor. John Cavill was an atheist and very much opposed not only to god/the gods' but also to his own creators and to humanity. In a game of gods and men, he is a very good candidate for a cult leader.

[Katy]

A role cop investigation was concluded on LynchMePls after his mysterious death. The results show that he was a Zombie.

So. Katy. sup?

I dunno. Like I said, I gave the result I got at the time I got it. Maybe the full reveal will be more enlightening, but I don't have any more info now than I did before. All I can do is reiterate that I wasn't lying about that result, that is the result I received from the mod.

Ooba, I don't fully trust you because, while I think you've been active and sometimes I really like your thought process, I've had some questions about you at various points of the game. I don't necessarily think you are scummy at this point, but I think that Tar is for sure town and I have no qualms about giving the item to him. If it makes you feel any better, I feel the same way about almost everyone except for one or two people who I believe must be town.

I also want to hear from Adumbrodeus - will hold off voting until that happens.

[Katy]

Katy was caught lying about her investigation result AND killed her redirection target.

Except ... none of that stuff is true, it's just assumptions you are making. I wasn't caught lying because ... I didn't lie. I gave my actual investigation result. You didn't do an investigation on the same night as me, so all you really know is that you got something different than I did on a different night.

I also did not kill my redirection target. I was redirected to someone who was killed. I do not claim to have killed Snow Bunny, I don't have the power to kill anyone. My target being moved to Snow Bunny doesn't prevent anyone else from targeting her that wanted to.

I can't prove any of that stuff one way or the other, so I can understand why it would cast suspicion on me, but it is nowhere near as certain as you are trying to frame it.

Her bewilderment surrounding the investigation result just reads like it's as fake as LMP's. I've reread her in ISO, and with the exception of being the first raj vote on D3 (but unvoting later), she works as a scumbuddy distancing and buddying up to town. When lots of people suspect raj and DarkStalker, she brings up points against them; when pressure evaporates, she leaves them and looks elsewhere. Just look at her behaviour on D1, and her move from the DarkStalker to the chronopie wagons on D2.

I moved from DS to chronopie because I was uneasy about all the weird cult talk that was happening surrounding DS. At the time it looked like maybe some mafia was involved trying to create a big distraction. Given that he flipped mafia, in retrospect, I was obviously wrong about that, but it was my thinking at the time. There was also a little bit of metagaming in that I never trusted Chronopie because if there was a bad guy in my faction it seemed like it had to be him. I was pretty easily persuaded to go that route.

If ABR was right and there are six Mafia (and I really think ABR is town after LynchMe's rolecop, because although ABR's D1 behaviour toward ort was very buddyish, Xite's tunneling on him isn't thinking), she's the last one.

We only have four mafia flips as of now, yet you seem to be pretty certain that five mafia are dead. I was pretty certain you were town up until this, but this seems like a possible slip to me.

Unvote
Vote: Mina

Although it's true that if ABR was telling the truth, most of the mafia are dead, and for that reason I'm not altogether worried if someone decides to vig me or something, I think town has a solid chance of winning so long as they can root out the cult.

Also, notice that like DarkStalker, her last words are to beg us to look out for the cult.

Uh, not exactly. I do think that town needs to find the cult and quickly if they are to be sure of winning, but the point of what I said about Fate was that I was worried I was about to be vigged and I wanted to get that suspicion out there, since I had been focused on defending myself. I would be kicking myself if I was onto something and I had died without getting a chance to point it out.

...Hmm. On second thought, dramonic's flip (White Knight or something else) would tell us more about Katy. But if we leave Katy alive until tomorrow, we'll have to waste a lynch/dayvig on her instead of gunning for the cult.

Just redirect me to myself tonight. If I really am killing people, I should kill myself off for you guys. It's not like my daybreak ability is desperately needed at this point.

[Katy]

@Katy, interestingly enough I've already checked and people can't be redirected to them self (or at least my redirect can't be used that way.)

Ah, well it was worth a try to try to clear myself. But even so, with a town redirector, if I am suspected, simply redirect me again. If I am the shooter, I would be forced to kill who you want, and it would also become fairly obvious after two in a row. If the kill falls elsewhere, and it is an energy beam then that will help in my favor. I have no problem with being redirected to someone scummy, as my ability will go to good use anyway.

I'll let Mina explain what she had in mind for some scum being dead but I think I know what it was. That doesn't look like a slip to me.

For now I think I'll say the same thing about Mina that I've been saying about you. If she's a reasonable kill it'll be after we get more information. Today dramonic is still a better choice.

Fair enough. Maybe there is a bit of OMGUS clouding my judgment but Mina seems to be awfully certain about things that I don't see how a town player could be certain about. I think Dram is a good shot as well though, because the continued discrepancies surrounding his abilities and claimed flavor as well as the fact that he can get townies killed to protect himself.

Unvote
Vote: Dramonic

The oversoul ability for my item does have a name, which is Perfect Direction. I knew this, so if I had wanted to fake my result on Snow Bunny, I would have just said Possession, which is what she claimed in the thread. But the result I actually got was Oversoul. I PMed the mod to transfer the Pendulum to Tar so he should be able to verify anything relating to the item if he's gotten it.

[Katy]

@MO
N1 Result was made after Xine claimed

No, my night one result was claimed before the role claim. I first mentioned my exact result here, fairly early in day 2. Xite didn't claim (Wayward Spirit) until here, almost three real weeks later, and Lynchmepls claimed Benevolent Spirit after that. All of that is moot, though since that slot actually flipped something else, so no matter how early I claimed, it doesn't prove my power unless the role switch is eventually explained.

N2 Result was officially announced once Dram claimed. Kathy claimed that she had a result on Dram but she wouldn't claim it before then.

When a cop claims a result on a person, and specifically it's flavour, that person, even scum, wouldn't lie in the face of a cop claim if Kathy wasn't on their team

.

Except that I breadcrumbed before his claim that I had a found a possible match between my result and his claimed powers if his flavor had to do with Batman. His role is White Knight, which is Harvey Dent's nickname in Batman. That would have been one hell of a guess if I were faking it.

It appears to me now that I am a role cop. My PM is not specific on that, since my ability has its own name and just tells me that I would receive information about my target while ascended to another plane, basically. And my first two results, "Benevolent Spirit" and "White Knight" didn't seem like role names to me, given that I have an actual name - Anubis - as my role name, so I simply wasn't sure of what type of info I was receiving at first. But my results on both Dramonic and Snow Bunny turned out to be their actual role names. Not sure what the deal is with the Spirit/Zombie role yet.

[Katy]

At the moment, I'm actually leaning towards lynching Katy over dram. It would answer a couple of questions, and the timing of that worship strip suggests to me that she was responsible for it.

What benefit do you suppose I got from it? If I had the power to strip worship votes, I would have done it during a time when people were actually voting for my faction. I don't really care who between JCA and GOO gets worship, and all that stripping a few votes could do would be to change the balance between those two factions. If I were looking for someone who manipulated the worship vote, I would look at the person who created a plan that called for such a close vote and specified exactly who each person should vote for. Calling for such a close vote ensured that it would be easily manipulated by someone with the power to affect even a few votes.

I also don't really understand the timing thing - what about the timing thing suggests it was me?

[Katy]

I am happy to vote off any sort of anti-town person, but I think mafia isn't as hard to narrow down or keep under control as cult right now. We have at least four mafia dead and reason to believe that there were only six total. We also have an unknown kill with a recognizable flavor, which must have come from scum, so that limits them in their choices. They have to either kill with the same person and risk being outed, kill with a different person and reveal the remaining kill flavor they have, or not kill, which works for me.

Cult is much harder to pinpoint because the cult members could be anyone. The cult leader is probably able to be found though, and should be stopped if possible to keep from recruiting any more to cult. I'm totally good with trying to get the cult leader.

I am not so sold on the proposed mechanics, though. Mostly because I know for a fact I have had no worship vote since my role was assigned to me. And, the only way the "no worship" cult works is if you presume recruits don't show up on the census because I declared my no vote status on day two, once I realized it made no difference to ABR's power. If I am cult, I would have had to be the first cult recruited on night one, even thought the census indicated that no one had been recruited yet. Also, if you look back on my posts from day one, I made it pretty plain that I did not give one crap who I worshipped. I am Egyptian, but notice I did not state that I would worship Egypt, I said on the first day that I would worship whoever. That's because I already knew my vote did not count.

I still think the most likely choice for cult leader is Fate. His flavor fits it and his play style is perfect for it. He is no threat to anyone with his whimsical ways ... or is he? If we're going after cult leader.

Unvote
Vote: Fate

[Katy]

How does the same person making the kill increase risk of being outed in any way? It's like your setting up a reason as to why Mafia's killer would switch tonight ...

Well, I am assuming that I will be redirected tonight because of what happened with the kill last night. If I am redirected and someone who is not the target is killed with an energy beam, it rules me out as the person who is doing it. If I'm ruled out, then there are fewer possibilities for that killer.

As far as the hypnotist goes, then that takes away a lot of the usefulness of ABR's power. It makes the most sense to me that the mod stuck that power in to give town some leverage against the cult. It just seems like a power that was directly meant to counteract something like a cult.

Daykilling cult?

Yeah that's me baby.

--points Kathy.

Why not? Sometimes cult gets a kill once they recruit. Maybe you get a daykill if you get a successful recruit.

Frankly, I find Anubis a better fit for causing Zombies (recovered Ancient healing device with proven zombification power in SG-1 canon, creating Kull Warriors, the list goes on...).

I wish I could create zombies, that would be rad. I would have had me a whole army of them by now.

[Katy]

The census was there to tell people that a cult exists - which counteracts the cult. The worship mechanic is our leverage against the cult - it tells me exactly who was recruited ..

Well okay, it's just that I know for a fact that I started the game with no worship and I also know for a fact that I am not in the cult, or the cult leader. I wonder though ... you could still be right about worship stripping. I wondered from the beginning why I didn't have a worship vote, but maybe the mod put in people who started with no worship on purpose so that the worship voting couldn't be gamed so easily.

It means that if they still have a possession/oversoul power, that all the JCA players would have 4 actions with their item. If they passed on their item, they shouldn't have possession/oversoul. I just realized now that Kathy can fake the Oversoul ability because she received an item that could use possession and oversoul.

I don't know what you mean by this. I don't have the item any more so I can't use it, so I can't fake anything. I only used it once so I never got to use the Oversoul ability. Before I got the item I never had those abilities because I'm Egyptian, not JCA.

Also, the item I got from the lottery had a spirit companion. It was Morphine.

[Katy]

Parama: Because I'm cool that way.
And the obvious explanation for S_B's death is the person who was redirected to her, and that that person only started using his kill once S_B gave her item away because that's just how the world works.

Well, like I said before, Faraday can just redirect me again to whoever he wants. If I were the killer you would be controlling my kill. If I'm not, then unless the killer happened to hit the same person I was redirected to, I would be cleared. If the kill does hit the person I am redirected to again, then just lynch me when day starts. If some other target is killed with an energy beam, then it wasn't me.

[Katy]

Hi, Katy.

Guess who's screwed tomorrow?

Hi! Well, that's why I've offered up a plan which is really my only chance to prove myself. Using that plan, I have a chance that the energy beam kill will fall on someone that I am not redirected to, proving it is someone else killing. If not, well, then I am sure I will be lynched, but at least I will have done my best to clear myself before that point.

2) Assuming Katy is Mafia, our Cult Leader almost HAS to be one of the Wizards (Mina, Faraday, Orbots). I'd lean heavily towards Faraday here, given how weak his claim is (1-shot vig who used his shot on an apparently NK-immune player? Hah! I'll bet LMP actually had 1-shot immunity to any kill that was used up by the D1 lynch...)

That's actually a really good point - I had forgotten that his redirect was based on the item he received and not part of his actual character claim. He does look strangely powerless when stacked up against how everyone else seems to be powered. I don't know who Harry Dresden is, but if he is lying about his role, then that could be the real reason he redirected me to Snow_Bunny if he was trying to avoid my action being used on him. On the other hand, I would think he would have done it sooner if that was the case.

I still think Fate makes the perfect cult leader based on gameplay, flavor, and his vagueness when it comes to claiming things, but at the same time I think your reasoning has a lot of merit. I do think the idea that the cult is heavily involved in the "network" would explain why so many mafia were disposed of so easily and yet not a single cultist or their leader has been uncovered.

[Katy]

SO yeah, Tarlahindur is a Zombie.

Vote: Tarlahindur

[Katy]

The exact role name that I got for Tarlahindur is Zombie Big Daddy, in case that is necessary for day vig. I think for the purposes of finding cult leader, regardless of what you think my alignment is, having two role cops is going to speed things up immensely. The cult leader is most likely lying about their role name, although I am not familiar with every type of character flavor we have in this game.

Where is this death note stuff coming from?

[Katy]

Do either Harry Dresden or Cavil have anything to do with zombies?

I don't know anything about Harry Dresden, but I was thinking about who could have something to do with zombies that we know about. If the culprit is not lying about their role name, then Fate's cylon character does in a roundabout way have to do with zombies in that the cylons have resurrection tanks where they can recreate people who have died.

I don't think that really works, though,IF the zombie condition is characterized as an infection, which seems to be up in the air right now. If that is the case it doesn't seem to relate to anything I know about the claimed roles, but I don't know all of the flavor of the different roles, either.

I've been trying to target Fate or VV for the past several nights, so I agree that they make good places to redirect me to.

About Mina's roleblock - could we use that to check several people for being a recruit at once? For anyone that has provable actions, she could block them using "Zombie [their name]" - if their action still goes through, then they are not a recruit. I have honestly lost track of who all has what action anymore, but for example it seems like it could work with Faraday's track.

And sorry, didn't realize the lottery was partially waiting for me, since I already won one.

Lottery: Unicorn

I've always wanted one of those.

[Katy]

Hmm ... I finally did some research on Shaman King, since I know zero about it, and I found that there is a family within that series or whatever that uses zombies as guardians. The only thing is, if Parama's and Albatross's items actually match up to the characters they claim to be then they wouldn't be part of that family. The people that received their items, did you check the flavor on them against the Shaman King flavor? Can you confirm that they match up?

[Katy]

Speaking of which, Katy, do you have any abilities that need the target's role name to work (like my dayvig)? I believe there's someone else like me out there.

Nope, I've claimed all my abilities, none of them need a name in order to work.

I'd prefer not to be blocked if possible. I don't mind being redirected, but I think one thing we should try to do as quickly as possible is rolecop as many people as possible because I think it's likely that the cult leader is not using their real role name (not to mention that it is useful for finding out zombies before they spread).

[Katy]

My request is to be redirected to Fate. Pretty please? *with puppy eyes*

I have no experience with different kinds of cults, except one that had a mass suicide trigger. That was an awesome game, I'll tell you about it sometime over tea and crumpets. Apart from that all I can say is that the zombie flavor certainly fits with the "Bite" and "infected" stuff, but as far as I know we are getting this all from an untrustworthy source, yes?

@Faraday, I don't think you've been weird, for what it's worth, although it did seem like you posted a lot in a row, but several people have done that frequently in this game.

I don't know why Faraday would fake a track when he does seem to be able to track. It would mean that on one night only he decided to do something secret and pretend he was tracking Fate, when it seems like most other nights he's accounted for, and I can't make that fit in with cultist. And I think Mina is correct that as he most certainly was responsible for the killing of the Godfather, it's pretty much impossible that he is mafia. Given that Snow_Bunny flipped mafia, there's no way she was actually targeting Inhim the night he died.

@Fate, what reason do we have to believe ANY of your target claims or anything you say period? Since you seem to lie about anything and everything, I'm certainly not lynching anyone on your word. I'd be happy to lynch Fate though.

I agree with vigging Tar when the time is right. He's spreading paranoia and he's already got one person (Iece) freaked about killing him. We know he's a zombie, and I don't know any reason to keep him around, especially since everything he says introduces doubt and uncertainty. I think the planning that is going on now is really smart, but if we second guess ourselves too much trying to work out an auto-win scenario, we'll be tripping all over ourselves. There's always going to be some doubt, but I do not believe that getting rid of the zombie will cause umpteen more to instantly sprout. If that were the case, we would have had to catch the cult leader right at the beginning of the game to even have a chance to win and I don't think the game was set up like that.

[Katy]

Actually, why wasn't Faraday recruited? Mina puts up a good point, redirection plays abound, it'll also be awesome for cult to recruit the guy with the redirection item and then control actions and recruit successfully.

This is what I have been most afraid of. However, I was redirected onto a cult member on the last night period. If cult was controlling the redirect the only reason they would do that was if they have infiltrated pretty heavily and were trying to push me to the most suspected member and away from others (or from CL). I'd like to think that at least as of last night, the redirect was legit.

[Katy]

Katy actually brought up a good point in Faraday's defence--he redirected Katy onto Tarhalindur. He was following instructions from Mighty Orbots, though, And I suppose a cult leader might have been willing to sacrifice a zombie. But if he inexplicably changed his track, he could've done the same with the redirect. Hmm.

Yes I thought about this as well, that he redirected that way to save himself, but there's been enough precedent of people not following "orders" and getting away with it, that he wouldn't need to, as long as he picked someone relatively scummy.

The other thing I thought of in the meantime, however, is that if they are both cult recruits and neither cult leader, then he wouldn't necessarily know who other recruits are and therefore might direct however he thought made him look the towniest without knowing what they would show up as.

Anyway, I do think this vig was the correct one, although I think waiting was also the right call. A lot of info came out in the meantime, and we have more from Tar to look at and think about regardless of its trustworthiness.

[Katy]

Not sure why we think someone who was infected would claim. Tar didn't until after my results, for all his "I'm turning on my win condition" talk. Just send me in the right direction, Mina.

I think the plan seems solid - it's about as planned as we can get given the extent of our knowledge.

Vote: Faraday

[Katy]

VV is who he says he is: Princess Zelda.

Also, oh please oh please don't kill me. I am too young to die!

[Katy]

Lottery: Claws

Since Iecerint already guessed it and it sounds way cooler than spear.

I don't really have anything else to add. I haven't held anything back, and I can't even debate that I would be the best lynch today. I got extra time to try to hunt cult and be spared by a mafia kill that I couldn't have done but no kills have been forthcoming.

All I can say is that when I am out and the game still continues, anyone who was in the "network" really bears looking at. Anyone who knew I was being redirected to Snow_Bunny could have placed a kill there intentionally. Why they would kill scum is something I can't answer, though. The only thing I can speculate is that they had reason to want other scum out of the picture and thought they could hide behind cult for the rest of the game, or maybe there was an alignment change.

[Katy]

I HAD SO MANY THINGS I STILL WANTED TO DO WITH MY LIFE

BWAAAAAAAHHHH

[Katy]

Katy did pretty well, though. Glancing through some of the private isos, it looks like lots of players had town reads on her early on.

<3Katy<3

Aww thanks, man ... I feel bad that I kind of pooped out at the end. I was playing two scum games at the same time and both of them I was flying solo for the last parts, so I got a burnt out knowing that it would take genius I didn't possess to talk my way out of a lynch on the last day. I knew that I would have 100% voted me if I were town, no matter what, with the cult gone. My lack of energy bums me out because I would have liked to have tried something totally crazy at the end when it was hopeless anyway, but it probably would have been solely for my own amusement anyway.

I also was really dying to be town in this game, I love digging my teeth into this kind of thing, so it was hard ... I was very jealous of all the town players.

I dug this crazy game and I actually had a lot of fun trying to see how long I could survive once I was basically outed. The only critique I had was that I wished scum had been allowed to talk in their QT all the time for this game. It felt like we barely had time to react to anything as a team or really coordinate efforts and I'm sure part of that was just due to the outstanding play by town (MO and Mina both were awesome, among others) but it felt like town had a lot of opportunity to coordinate behind the scenes, which is normally supposed to be mafia's advantage over them.

Other than that it was madness and I totally loved it.